Why The Air Force’s Security Forces Struggle To Keep People

Ever pulled a 12 that turned into 14 because relief never came? We open the curtain on Air Force Security Forces and talk frankly about what keeps people in the beret—and what drives them out. From the missile field to the flight line to the range, we map the real forces that shape careers: schedules that never sleep, recalls that erase off-duty life, and the constant whiplash between boredom and chaos that only cops understand.

We dig into the culture clashes that define the unit from the inside. Flight carries the grind—gates, patrols, reports, QC—while back office runs calendars, awards, and admin. That gap can warp incentives, sending strong patrolmen chasing stable hours instead of operational growth. Then there are the prestige sections: K9’s unique mission with its own skill demands, Raven’s tight community and travel perks that draw both admiration and side-eye, and CADM’s critical training role that can feel insulated from flight. Each path offers real value and real tradeoffs, including promotion ceilings if you stay too long in a niche without deliberate rotation.

Leadership is the hinge. The best leaders enforce standards, build fair schedules, and make sure recognition matches output. The worst pick the hardest option by default and forget the admin that makes careers—bullets, awards, and time for development. We share firsthand wins and misses, including the higher standard placed on defenders after off-duty mistakes and how that shapes trust. Still, the Defender identity forges resilient people; many of the Air Force’s strongest first sergeants, group chiefs, and command chiefs grew up on flight.

If you’ve ever asked whether you’d recommend SF to someone today, this conversation gives you the honest calculus: what you gain in discipline, composure, and leadership, and what it costs in time, predictability, and patience. If this resonated, tap follow, share it with a Defender, and drop a comment with the one change that would keep more cops in uniform.

Transcript

Kickoff, Tech Hiccups, Roll Call

SPEAKER_03 1:01

What up, people? What's good? Hold on. Everything on cracking.

SPEAKER_06 1:51

All right, ladies and gentlemen. I'm on I'm on the other computer setup, so I don't have my key lights on this eye. I had to get that squirt away next time, my bad. But your boy's dark.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Dark skin stand up. Yeah, he was dark. Dark skins.

SPEAKER_06 2:16

I had a joke, but I'm not gonna say it. My wife would be mad, so I'm not gonna say it. We got a good show for y'all today, ladies and gentlemen. We're just going through some audio technical stuff to make sure our stuff is squared away. I'm excited about this one. You in the building, put down the chat who you are, man. Name and status. All you defenders should know what that is. Name and status. Come up with your call sign. If you all secure, come up with your call sign. Man, do I remember when I was a defender, man, young defender being on post, tired. And I would always get a jump in my in my chest when I heard that. They'd be like, Defender controls, all post patrols. Go into a status check. Come up with your call sign of status. You'd be like, oh if you miss it, if you miss it, they coming for you. They coming for you, boy. Lima Charlie Tango, what's up? Del Brown in the building.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

That's really low.

SPEAKER_06 3:35

That's low.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 3:36

That's good. I can fix that.

SPEAKER_03 3:38

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 3:39

Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_03 3:40

Much better.

Framing The Topic: Why People Leave SF

SPEAKER_06 3:42

Dale Brown in the building, Lima Charlie. For you non-defenders that may listen to this podcast, don't worry. We're gonna help you out because it's probably some defender jargon we're gonna go into that you'd be like, what does that mean? Or we didn't have to, we can just go home when we get off shift. What do you mean you have to wait till somebody relieve you? If you get off at four o'clock, you get off at four o'clock. Well, nope, that's not us. That's probably one of the reasons why people did not like being a defender. You just can't go home when you want to. You have to wait until you're properly relieved. And sometimes that doesn't mean when they stay when they show up. Because you have to go through a bunch of equipment and you have to go through everything that happened during the ship. And God forbid, if you do not mention everything and you miss something, you can get recalled. What do you mean, recall? I'm off ship. Why do I have to come back? Bro, you you crazy. When I'm off shift, I'm off ship. Y'all can get bent. Not when you're a defender. Ain't no such thing as off duty. So if you caught the thumbnail, man, first of all, first and foremost, we thank you guys for being here today. I'm your your host or co-host, Philly DC, Peace Human Beings. Plus, you have your co-host, an engineer, Code 10, Robert Row. That's what's up. Old school defender. You got my co-host P here. You got other co-hosts, Jessica Player, Dell Brown in the place. Welcome to Unpopular Celebrities. Let's see. I'm eating macaroni and cheese with ice cubes in it. Okay. Hey, you must be in one of those states that's going through a freeze. Because we are too. Those who are in Texas and Florida, you would probably agree if I said Texas and Florida should be their own country. Country. Why in the world does Texas have freeze overs? It's Texas. We're in the Southwest. So anyway, yeah, we're unpopular celebrities. Thank you for being here. This is your first time being here. We appreciate you. Go ahead and hit like, share, and subscribe to all of our social media channels: YouTube, Facebook, IG. You can catch some of our audio and audio podcasts and Spotify as well. And feel free to drop us a line if there's something you want us to cover and talk about. That'll be interest to you and other folks. And then we read all messages. Speaking of which, today's topic was suggested by a listener, uh, Sarah Rodolfo. Hopefully I pronounced your name correctly, lady. I'm sorry. But phenomenal Matt Sardin, who is a 3F now, but used to be a prior defender before she crossed trade. And she said, let's have a show and talk about why it is difficult to be a defender and why people don't want to be a defender. I said, What a great show. That would be a great topic. And so here we are today. We're going to talk about today why do folks want don't want to be a defender, and what are the pros and cons of being a defender?

SPEAKER_03 6:52

I think no, I'm super excited to talk about this because I got a lot of opinions about our beloved ex-career field. Beloved ex-career field. Yes, I have a lot, a lot of opinions, and I'm sure everybody else out there has a lot of opinions also about this, but I have not been shy about these opinions. I've always shared them because there are a lot of good and a lot of bad. But there are some good. You know, there's positives behind everything. Devon McCoy got beef with you because we supposed to set up a show with uh UMU trash, and we never did. And you said, hey, just contact me. We contacted you like six months ago. It was back in 2025. That's how long ago it was. Still waiting. Great teams, bad teams. All right. I'm ready to dive right into this however you want to do it. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_06 7:57

All right. Um, so before we get started, just to give you some of our credentials so you don't think we're outside of the career field and we're bashing another career field. Full transparency. I myself am a prior defender. I'm still waiting on D. I'm sorry. Today I'm gonna do it for real, my brain. I'm sorry. Oh, man. Look, even Rocky yelling at you. I'm sorry. I'm gonna do it today for real. During the football games? Thanks for reminding me. I'm gonna do it today. But I have I have served 32 years, currently still serving one month left in the Air Force. And shut up. I'm sorry, be quiet, Rock. I don't want to, I don't like yelling at all. Um I served 32 years in the military, in the Air Force, and I have about 24 years in the security forces career. I ascended to the rank of chief, and I did 24 years in the military or in the in the air force. I'm sorry, duh. 24 years as a cop before I ascended to the promised land and did something else. And so, Pete, you want to show your credentials?

Credentials And Career Paths

SPEAKER_03 9:04

I did 18 years. Well, it see is a mixed bag, right? So I did 10 years as security forces. I'm sorry, six years of security forces, 10 years as K9, and two years FTAC, and then two years as a first sergeant. So I'm all over the place, but eight years as a regular cop, ten years as the world's greatest canine handlers, and then uh two years FTAC, two years uh in between that time. I was the instructor, so all over the map, all over the map. But we do have our our our security forces berets. Mine's actually somewhere around here. Uh somewhere around here. It's in good shape, too. When DC finishes my records, I'll set the show. All right, thank thanks, uh Devon. I'll let him know that we're all waiting on him. Tony's been the building. All right. Uh Devon McCoy said I was 12 years as a defender. People be hating badly in SF. Yeah, yeah, they do 12 years. 12 years. That's a long time. And then cross-trained to something else. That's a long time. All right, go ahead. I'm I'm ready to go. I'm ready.

SPEAKER_06 10:19

All right, before we get started, I want to throw out three questions to the audience. So feel free to put your answers in the chat. If you're a defender, what made you stay or leave? Would you recommend this career field to someone today? And finally, what's one thing leadership doesn't understand about security forces? Okay, for that being said, let's go ahead and get started. First, let's talk about, let's talk about the reputation of security forces. So, as a defender myself, I'll quickly say I was taught when I first came in back in early in the early 90s that being a security policeman, because that was the time when we were security policemen, our reputation was highly regarded in the Air Force. We were sharp, uniform looked good, it was crisp, we had good discipline, and we were dependable. And we were always taught, don't confuse your rank with my authority. Full transparency, I didn't want to be a cop. I can't get open general. They got me. They said, yo, there's no medical jobs open, but if you want to leave Philly, easiest way to get open general. I was like, yo, am I gonna get the job I wanted? Well, only if you get open general. When you get there, you'll have to be able to pick any job you want because then you're open to everything versus medical. I was like, sign me up. Next thing you know, I'm a security policeman. Over to you.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Yeah, uh, that was a quick synopsis. I didn't want to be a defender either. I actually wanted to be personnelist, which is weird because that's the the squadron that I was the first time for. But uh, that's what I want to be. But the delayed enlistment program was like three months long. So, of course, my recruiter was like, I could make you a defender ASAP, or I'm sorry, I can get you in the military ASAP if you just want to be security forces. So, what did they show? And I'm sure they had it. You might have been in the video. The security forces recruiter video. Yo, I might have been in the video. Yo, this thing had ATVs, helicopters, shooting all kinds of guns, throwing grenades, shooting RPGs, like going to war, Russian rolling, like this thing look legit. And you ride around in a police car. It looked legit. So I was like, okay, cool. He said, Yeah, once you get in, you'll go ahead and do that. Yes, we ain't want DC drawing blood. What? Oh, what? Because you say he said medical personnel's gotta read, they saved you. Yeah, I know. Yeah, they didn't say that, but I qualified my ASVA score qualified hater. Uh, so anyway, they were like, we can make you a cop. So I said, All right, let's do it. He said, Yeah, you can just go in, you have the scores in three years, you can cross-train. So I said, All right, bet three years I could do that. 18 years later, still a cop. Go ahead. That's my story.

SPEAKER_06 13:11

18 years and still a cop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, I'm gonna let you finish. I'm gonna have to put my dog out, man.

SPEAKER_03 13:21

Rocky trying to tell about cops.

SPEAKER_06 13:23

Yeah, you tripping. Hold on, hold on. Hey, go ahead, continue.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yeah, so I mean, that's free. The good thing about my journey, I had nothing but good bases. I have never been to a security base, I have never been to a missile base, so I have no idea what that life is like. And everybody says you're not a cop until you do that. Well, I must not be a cop because I've never done those before at all. Uh, as Philly gets out, I'm not sure if he froze himself or if he's frozen because he looks crazy right now. So when he comes back, I make sure I tell him he's frozen. The doodle-doodling, yeah. How do you think of these things? The doodle-doodling. All right, so uh, yeah, so I had nothing but good base. My first base was overseas, so that was good, and we didn't work gates, so that was good. The second base was stateside, and that's why I was like, oh, F this cop BS. I deployed twice while I was overseas and in three years, so everything was good, and then I came stateside, and I realized what a gate was. I realized that a senior airman wasn't ish because we had nothing but masters leading flights, techs being massarts, and everything else. DC's looks like lovey smith.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Y'all got jokes.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yo, you're like pixelated right now. Like you're going, and I hope hopefully it doesn't mean that our programs are about to crash because that's always what happens. All right, let me check. No, you're good, you're good. Don't do, don't move nothing, you're fine now. You're just dark. God dog, it's okay. So I'm just dark. You turn on the light in there. Don't you have the light up too? The light is bright up there, it's not on my face. Hilarious. All right. Uh, what's good, brothers? I pray that y'all are doing well. Hey, everything's well. Thanks, Chris. I appreciate you always coming and checking on. Uh, all right, I will let you go after we read Tony Bostick, the most misunderstood career field in the United States or in the Air Force that requires an incredible amount of resilience and mental toughness. Definitely not for the mentally weak or sensitive. Ooh. So basically, you just say we just pick on people. You say basically we pick on people. Oh, see, you look a lot better now. Pause. I look better now. I mean, you don't look as uh dark.

SPEAKER_06 15:39

Oh, but you look so you oh it is.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

Turn your screen brightness up or something.

SPEAKER_06 15:47

You got jokes, huh?

SPEAKER_03 15:48

All right, go ahead, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 15:51

You done now?

SPEAKER_03 15:51

Yeah, go ahead. I just told everybody I didn't have a bad base. I didn't ever went to nukes, I never went to missiles, I never did any of that crap.

Reputation Then And Now

SPEAKER_06 16:00

I don't think any base is bad. However, I would say for a defender, you could say they were bad because if you went to, say, my knot, anywhere in northern tier, you're gonna work missiles. And that goes into one of the problems, or one of the things people don't want to be a defender is because of the schedule. There's no, like say, and it's nothing against my admin folks or my finance folks or any other job that does a normal Monday through Friday schedule, but maintainers can identify with it. But as a defender, every job, every base you go to has a different schedule. It's no stability in the schedule because security is a 24-hour business. You can't just shut down security at 4:30 and everybody go home. The base still gotta be protected. So if you go to Northern Tier, you're gonna work a called a missile schedule. I think that's what it was called. It's man. Yeah, it's like a missile schedule where you go out in the field. You can work four days in the field away from your family, four straight days, but then you get six days off. But it's not really six days off. You get three or four days, but then when you get one day that's a training day, then you get one day as a reconstitution day, and then you're out in the field. So that's why one of the these are one of the reasons why people don't want to be cops. But to Tony B's point quickly, I think not everyone can be a defender because it does take a bit of mental toughness. It's one thing to come to work at your desk, and again, nothing against my other AFS, fellow AFSCs that has that job because somebody has to do it. But as a cop, your day changes. There's some days where it's boring, and there's some days it's high paced. And it's like you just don't know what's going on. Some days you're bored, like you're on the flight line. Shout out to my straight leg security folks, I was security when I came in. Straight out to them, shout out to them. But it's not like being on a flight line and you're on an entry control post and you're watching a plane or building, and you got people that's going by every single day for 12 hours. Really, it's 14 hours, to be honest, because when you when you know it's time and they say guard mount broke, you don't just walk off post, you got another 30, 40 minutes, maybe longer, depending on where you posted at. Then you gotta hope they don't forget about you, they're gonna pick up everybody else.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 18:28

Anyway, I'll pause then. I'll pause.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Uh, a couple of comments. I want you to read Tony Bosti because it's a longer one. Uh leave finance alone.

SPEAKER_06 18:35

No, love our finance people, especially on the first and I'm cool with finance people.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

Especially on the first and 15th. Or we should say the 30th and 14th. Uh love being a defender. Good morning. Good morning, Josh. Who? Who Josh? Uh security forces, it definitely isn't for the week. We're gonna talk about that. All right, here goes Tony Bostick, boy. If you can read that. All right, let me enlarge it.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

All right. Tony B says there is proof in the pudding, though. How many group and command chiefs? Oh man, how many group and command chiefs are pride defenders? Our career field is so hardened that either you sink or swim. Those who learn how to swim become absolute gorillas when it comes to leading. Ooh, let's let's spend a few minutes on that conflict.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

But anyway, before we do, if a flight chief has three options, they're going to choose the worst option just to make people mad.

SPEAKER_05 19:28

Hmm.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Talk about that too. If a flight chief has three options, they're going to choose the worst option just to make that very I know what you're saying. Hey, hey, I get what you're saying. Some people might be too far removed. I get look, Tony Bernay gets it.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Somebody gets it.

SPEAKER_03 19:48

Somebody gotta explain that to me. I'm lost. Wait, we'll go back to Tony B's because we got two more, and then we'll go back. Favorite words to hear Garbur broke. Worst words to hear. Hey, attention all post patrol, stand by for the following net message. After work today, do not go home. We will have rebound.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

That's the worst.

SPEAKER_03 20:14

Shout out defenders, but now I'm cool. I'd much rather be on the flight line. Really? I agree. I agree. Divine was dealing with some clouds. Yeah, me too. Me too. All right. Uh, so go back to Tony Bostik's point. I'll just quickly say, because I was in command chief. Do you think that that is because sheer numbers, because we're the largest career field, we're gonna have more chiefs. We're gonna have more chiefs that extend the group chiefs and command chiefs.

SPEAKER_06 20:40

It's just not no, no, no, no, no, no. If you're if you're saying as a career field, since we're the largest, we're gonna have more chiefs. I can see that, but not command chiefs and group chiefs.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Okay.

Schedules, Relief, And Recall Culture

SPEAKER_06 20:51

That's your layout. I would I would say, if anything, I would say people in the Air Force get this idea that defenders are dependable and they're structured and they have high standards. And that's why a lot of people hire defenders. Thomas White says y'all defenders got stockhold citrus. Y'all claimed that oh y'all BA disciplinary. All right then. Um but Tony Boston brought up a good point, and I would tell you that was one of the reasons why we advocated to the then top cop to allow folks who left the career field to wear their beret. Because when you wear your beret, the airmen see us, when the airmen see us, they got to know that their experience, what they do as a defender is valued. And one way to show it is to see people who left the career field and are representing as defenders at senior levels. So you got a group chief that's wearing a beret, command chief that wearing a beret, and Shao Day Wolf, who is the current Chief Master Sergeant Air Force, and is a defender. That makes three defenders who served as Chief Master Sergeant Air Force. I'll pause there.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Uh Devon McCoy said, I say being a defender made me a great personnelist, but that ish was annoying. Yeah, hey, you know what's funny? A lot of people like, and back to DC point, a lot of people like when cops come around and uh are in different career fields because they think of us as a certain type of way. And most of us are just embedded to be that way. Like we can't even change if we wanted to. We just think that's how it's supposed to be. Hey, Devon McCoy has a question for all y'all active duty people. Can I wear my beret?

SPEAKER_06 22:39

No, because you're in another career field. Isn't command chief a different career field? No, that is a specialty career. That's specialty career field. You still maintain your core AFSC as a cop. So wait a minute. You're still a cop. That's special duty. Command chief is special duty.

SPEAKER_03 22:55

First arts can still wear their berets.

SPEAKER_06 22:57

Yes, because they're authorized to wear it.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Oh, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 23:01

It's all there's all it's it's in the AFS, it's in the uh AFIs that says specific jobs when you're outside the 3P where you can wear your beret. Now I'm sure if Devon decided he wanted to wear his beret, nobody's gonna say anything.

SPEAKER_03 23:15

Hey, Devon, we got new berets now. They got like a flash on, they ain't got a pin no more. They got like an actual flash, so you might have to go to the BX and go get one with the flash on it. I'm sure you had the pin. Tony Bostick, the best group and command chief was definitely SF. I mean, I feel like most of the ones I had were pretty good. Uh SF makes the best diamond wares too. I would hit the button, but I ain't got it. Amen to that, amen to that. Because we dealt with everything that first sergeants deal with. If you've been in the law enforcement community, security cops, the security cops is different.

SPEAKER_06 23:56

I will say there's a there's two sides to that though. Because sometimes cops could be bad first sergeant. Because as a cop, you've got to get out of he's a burnt mind. Devon, ladies and gentlemen, Devon McCoy said he burnt his beret. So um, what I was gonna say, if you have a defender, because look at it, right? When you are a shirt, most people believe defenders are standoffish, too stubborn, too, too much discipline, right? Yeah, too much. Right. You've gotta, as a shirt, you've gotta be able to see both sides, right? And most defenders can't get beyond a black and white, especially if you're a core security guy. Yeah, so as a first sergeant, they are you already losing because most folks have a stigma about cops, and we'll get into that too. So when they find out, yo, who's a new shirt? Oh, he used to be a defendant, they'd be like oh shoot.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 24:56

They'd be like, Oh, or as the command chief, you know how many times I had people tell me, especially at this job, my man, not to wear your beret, not to wear my beret. People told me the same thing as a shirt.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

Told me they said, They said it was intimidating. They said it was intimidating. They said I'm gonna lose people, yeah. Yes, yes, exactly. You know what's crazy is that shout out to all my airmen in the 56 FSS, because I love them all. Well, most of them, but all of them, but most of them, but all of them, but most of them. Okay, but they would tell me, hey Shirk, you're being like a cop right now, or you sound like a defender right now, and I really had to check myself, like, hey, maybe I am. But sometimes it's like, yo, y'all need to hear this-ish. Because y'all acting like personnels right now. Sometimes y'all need some uh some uh injection of a cop blood up in y'all so y'all could be a little paused. That's sounded crazy, so y'all could be a little bit more disciplined and have some pride for what y'all do. Find some pride because I will say one thing about a cop. You need to find pride in your work. Because back to Philly's point, some days it's boring, some days it's so busy that you're not gonna go home until six, seven hours. Well, I won't say that long, four hours after your shift. The bad thing is back to to or back to Devon McCoy's point about flight chief's gonna have three options, they're gonna pick the worst one. They gotta stay too. So usually not only do you have to stay as a patrolman for whatever you're dealing with, the death sergeant gotta stay, the flight chief gotta stay, the assistant flight chief, if they're good, they usually stay. Everybody gotta stay. Well, not everybody, but usually those four or five people had to stay, which sucks for every and then you gotta show up. Like, there's no, this is why I love there's no, oh my god, I work four hours out of my last shift. You better show up on time for your next shift. It don't matter how many hours you went over. I'll pause. I won NCO of the year cross-trained a month later. That's how bad I all right.

SPEAKER_06 27:05

Okay, hey, um, Devon is letting out all his business.

SPEAKER_03 27:10

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_06 27:11

All right then. Um, so Freddie, let me ask you this building. Let me ask this then. So I'm curious if people I can I think some people put it in the comments or what they felt about those three questions I posed. But where where does the stigma negative or positive come from? Does it come from internal or from the external?

Flight Life Versus Back Office

SPEAKER_03 27:31

Both. Both. So we have a stigma of eating our own. I will say other career fields have it just as bad. Some are even worse on a different level. We make our own miserable. Some people just hate on their own, but we make our own miserable. If we want to hate on each other, we're gonna make each other miserable. So I say the stigma actually comes from. I hate to say because we got a lot of people in here, y'all old timers are the stigma. Y'all are the grandpa's that say I had to walk up uh a mountain both sides barefoot in snow to get to school every day. So y'all gonna do the same thing. So don't complain about having to sit in a vehicle and be bored because I had to sit there on the gate, blah blah blah, blah blah blah blah. Old people can't let it go to how they had it worse. You know, you were probably of that era that you had to walk from plane tip to plane tip or whatever it was. Yeah, wing tip to wing tip. Never done that in my life. I've never been on security without a vehicle, ever. But oh, I heard I heard all the old timers tell me all the stories about how they had to walk wingtip to wingtip with their a-bag and couldn't be more than so far away. The flight you would come up and check, and you had to run whatever the stories are. But anyway, both. I'll let you comment, then we have a lot of comments.

SPEAKER_06 28:52

Okay, all right. I'll let's read the comments.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

What to say about that one? All right, they're gonna oh Tony Bosni has a long one.

SPEAKER_06 28:59

All right, Tony B says the turmoil you go through prepares you for all kinds of craziness, and 10 of nine SF career fields need discipline, and in most cases, want that defender to get that much needed standard that's missing across the force. That's why the success rate as a shirt is so high.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

True. Uh Tony Renee, Devon McCoy out of Holloman too. That damn base. I told him separate me when I was separate me.

SPEAKER_07 29:34

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, go back, go back, go back. She said she was in a Holloman, she said, separate me.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yo, you wild. That was a wild comedy. Yes. Yes, Del Brown says in Ukwards, both. Yes, both. Definitely the old head defenders. Thank you, Freddie Kinkade. We got a old head defenders. Anyone who came in prior 9-11. Anybody who came in prior 9-11 is an old defender. Because if I hear one more story about how 9-11 y'all got called and had to sit out there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Nobody cared. Anyway, Eden R own is actually a lot of cases holding the stand. Ooh, I never thought about it that way. Some are, some are. Yep. Gene Harrison says both. Uh Gene Harrison says Tony Bostick preach. Tony Renee said, When you were there, DC. Oh no, when were you there? No, yeah. When were you there? Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 30:35

Tony, I was there. It's my first base, actually, in 94. Holloman was bad. Was it bad?

SPEAKER_03 30:42

It was. It was.

SPEAKER_06 30:44

I asked West. That's where I got my triple nickel, actually.

SPEAKER_03 30:47

Oh, you for for what we talked about. No, no, no, no, no. You must have got two triple nickels.

SPEAKER_06 30:52

No, one triple nickel. Oh, you should have gotten when I got in the fight to coat. I should have got one. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

Separating is diabolical. Thank God I had a supervisor that steered me towards Cadm. Ooh. No way. No, my A and B shreds. Shout out to my A and B shred outs. Yes. Back in the day, my face at back in my day. Back in my day, face ass people. What's face ass? Face ass people. I've seen some cops come over and be great personnel. Love seeing y'all come. Yes, Justin, great point. Devon McCoy's a good example. I mean, I heard he's pretty good. Ever got any paperwork or got in trouble? When they see you getting paperwork, all they do is just run the paper, the checklist. They just run the checklist and never think about the personality behind it. Never think about you still have to be a defender. Never think I still need you to cover my six or whatever you have to say. They just run the checklist.

SPEAKER_06 31:57

Yeah. Yeah. So going back to the stigma, because I I want to get to the K9 Catam part because that is an internal stigma. And let's throw in Raven while you're on. Oh, we'll cover that in a couple of minutes. But the external stigma, can we all agree? One, negative-wise, they believe defenders are too rigid, they believe defenders are too black and white. They believe defenders are more hard-nosed. They think of defenders as I was told when I first came in, defenders were like the army grunts. We are. Because, like in the Air Force, no one carries a weapon except for defenders. And so, because of that, other career fields looked at us like we thought we were better than them, but they thought they they were better than us. Because almost like robots, you know what I mean? Like when you think of grunts, or you think of God bless my Marines, you think of Marines, you think of them just like I guard playing. Plane doesn't leave, I stay here. Shout out to common sense, you know what I mean? They'd be like, I remember one time I was at a gate when I was a young airman, and I was cool with this one dude in maintenance. He was like, Man, you've been here for like 12 hours. Man, let's go, man. We gotta go to the um BX. And I can't leave. What do you mean you can't leave? You said you get off at 6 p.m. I know. Right. He said, Well, it's seven. Nobody came to get me yet. Yeah, he's like, Why can't you just leave? Because it's in my general orders, yeah. My expertise. And he said, Let me see. It didn't say you can leave, it just says I'll take charge of my post to protect all people and personnel, which I'm responsible for until properly relieved. Until properly relieved, thank you. So he was like, but you're relieved, no, but I don't understand why you can't leave. Y'all dumb. I was like, I know. Yeah, that's all you can say. He was like, Hey, we can give you a ride, counsel. You want to go? No, he's like, all right, and they started laughing. They started laughing.

SPEAKER_03 34:07

Yeah, I see C Erban that can run flights in other career fields, but also turn the same flight into an on-duty drunken whoa. All right, all right, all right, uh, Brad Rashad. Uh, the day I quit, I got my the day I quit. Oh, try to quit. I got my rip for catam. Hey, shout out to you. And we retained the great airmen, so that worked out. People be trying, uh, people be trying to train they eye. What? Read that for me, because that must be me.

SPEAKER_06 34:42

People be trying to train the eyeballs of man. Take your ass to the army.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

People be trying to train their eyeballs. I don't know what that means. Uh hold on. Uh Dell wrote up a good thing. So I guess we kind of cover the stigma thing. Seeing folks come to work, come back. Oh, Dell, Dell, amen. Seeing folks come to work, come back from lunch, go home, and come back for intramural sports takes a man's soul. Bruh, amen to that. Bruh, amen, bruh. That's the worst. Or when you come and they'd be like, You're still here? When they come back this day, where the fuck else am I supposed to be?

SPEAKER_02 35:26

I can't go nowhere. But that's the worst.

unknown 35:29

That's the worst.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

All right.

SPEAKER_06 35:31

All right.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

You still here? What the fuck?

SPEAKER_06 35:36

So, yeah, so when you talk about the stigma piece, I think we kind of went through all that. It's just do we have our own, and we have the external stigma of people with how they think about us, which kind of drives people not to want to be a defender. Like there's also that perception that we do long hours and that we eat our own. Now, there is some there is some truth to that. I do believe within security forces, we are harder than our own, harder on our folks than anybody else. You'll have, say, the same thing that a person would do. Let's say somebody goes out, they get involved with a drunk and driving incident DD DWI incident, and let's say the person was in the passenger seat and they didn't stop them. They won't do nothing to that person. But as a defender, if you was in the car and you wasn't drinking, you could be like, yo, I wasn't drinking. I didn't, I wasn't drinking and driving. You might get worse punishment than the person who was drinking and driving. It's and then people people hear about it, they're like, Dang, that's that's messed up, bro. You didn't even do anything. I know, but they like, you're irresponsible, you're a defender, you carry that badge, you should know better.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

You're held to a higher standard. The word, the worst thing about it, I'm not sure if you want to cover this later or go into it now. The back office versus flight. That's what also, that's what also hurts security forces.

SPEAKER_06 36:55

Yeah, let's let's yeah, go ahead. I'm sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

No, go ahead. I just want to say those are the stigma about eating our own. You have the back office hating on flight, flight hating on back office, and that never stops. Everybody on flight wants to be back office. Everybody in back office said they were the best flight chief, flight patrolman, flight whatever ever, ever, ever, ever. Uh Tony Boss says, can't can't be breaking the law if you're supposed to be enforcing them. Comes with the territory. Yeah, people, yeah. I I mean, but people make mistakes. People make mistakes. Uh, my JBA crew, uh, Joy Bay Andrews, I guess. Joy Base Andrews crew is the reason I'm still here today. They are always available for me, phone, email, or whatever. Okay, shout out to JBA.

SPEAKER_06 37:44

Shout out, shout out to the shout out to the shirt, man. I know his story, man. He's that's a great point.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Uh, seeing other people have the freedom, Dell says, and they have an area supervisor or flight chief come and treat you like a child. It's crazy. Hey, very true. That's very true. You do have some flight chiefs to treat you like a child. Uh, we had back office at one point. Black office. Black office. Don't even go away, bro. No, that's another true stigma. That's another true stigma. That's another truth. I think we opened up the jar of flight versus back office. Flight versus back office is like the haters of Chappelle's show. The haters have a rhyme. Yeah, the haters have a rhyme. All right, go ahead. Because I will say, as a flight, work and flight was great for the first two years. After that, and I saw what back office do and how they get holidays off, how they get down days off, how they get sports days off, how they get to go hour and a half lunch and get to actually get in a car and leave. Oh man, sign me up. Sign me up. That's my that's my rant about back office.

SPEAKER_06 38:59

Yeah. So I I'm curious, when did you in your career, when did you get your first back office job?

K9, Raven, CADM: Status And Friction

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Two years in. Two and a half. It was like two and a half, three years. What job was that? Uh, I went to Armor. Armor. Um so I went from Armor. So if you want to call, I was the unit scheduler. That was about that was my first real back office job. Unit scheduler. That's about two and a half years in.

SPEAKER_06 39:24

Yeah, it seemed like back office was Tony Boston said, Y'all exactly.

SPEAKER_03 39:29

That's why I'm trying to say that's why I'm trying to say air out the laundry, air out the laundry. Yes.

unknown 39:35

The black.

SPEAKER_06 39:36

Make sure before we read every comment from Devine, we s we make sure we say from Devon McCoy, he said this. So we know it's coming from him. This dude said Black Office. That's true to say that is a true statement. I was involved in a base that had none. I had a chief tell me, shout out to Chief, I'm gonna leave his name out. He said, He's Me, I was a senior at the time, and he said S3T here. S3T. This she told me he likes, hey, hey, counsel, you can't hire that person. I like, why? And he went like this. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, because the time's not right. He's like, Council, think about it. Yeah. I am. He's the best qualified. Yeah, yeah. I like, what are you trying to say? He's black. Council. I said, so what's wrong with that? You got this person is black, this person's black, this person's black. This one person is Asian, but then you got another person's Puerto Rican, that's black. You're gonna have a rainbow coalition back here. They ain't gonna like that. I said, Who ain't gonna like that? You know who. So I was like, I'ma hire him. He said, I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna tell you, counsel, if you want to make chief, you better not hire him. I'm like, who cares? Then I was like, did I throw out the one I'm sure you would throw out? What if they were all white? Yeah, nobody says nothing. Nobody said nothing don't matter.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

He said it don't matter. But anyway, end of my Tony Renee said a great point. Too many in the roof, somebody gotta leave. Hey, that's a true statement. Hey, there's too many of y'all, especially if we're loud and cutting up. Oh man, well, somebody gotta go.

SPEAKER_06 41:13

Let's talk about so back office. You said two years in you was armored and unischeduler. I I didn't get my first back office job until I got excuse. Anyway, that's another story. But one thing I noticed when I was a when I was a cop is that for cops, back office was the promised land.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 41:42

It's like you have your friends who was on flight with you, suffering. They'd be like, you know how they you know how it is? They come up and do a post check. They'd be like, bro, I can't believe we got work this weekend, man. They said something about some plane coming, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? Tony Boston said his office bio wall look like the day.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

Yo, oh, yo, yo, fuck it. Yo, fuck it. Or think about it like back office knew when all the good missions would happen, and here they would all show up, armed up. Let a let let a let a uh a domestic get out of control or an active shooter situation or something that you know you're gonna get coined, a bullet for. Here comes all the back office out of nowhere, armed up, vest on, ready to go. I'm here to help. Bro, where the hell are you at every other day? Oh no, no, no, y'all need me today. We you gotta act. Oh, all of a sudden we got something going on. You want to show up. Let a major vehicle accident happen. All the major vehicle accident investigators, where they work, back office. Back office. We ain't got none on flight. None on flight. Oh, that makes me bad. Oh, that makes me bad. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:55

Back office, it was just a different vibe on back office. Like on flight, you would have your friend. You know, I'm sure you can attest to this. You'll be on flight, and you know, people come up on your post checks or whatever, and they'll talk about man, I can't believe we got work this weekend, or uh the flight chief sucks, blah, blah, blah. I can't believe we gotta do this report after work, blah, blah, blah. And then somebody says, Man, I'll put it for this back office job. They're like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. You're gonna hate it, man. I'm telling you, they work all these hours. But I just want to excel. You can't excel on flight, bro. You're gonna you ain't gonna get that job. Then all of a sudden, they got the job, they announced that they garb out. And finally, before we go to shift, let's all congratulate, congratulate senior airman brown for getting the back office job in training. And people, you had some people like Auckland, they had some people like they be mad. They be big man, right? And then you had some flight cheese will be like, Yeah, yeah, Brown won't be here with us next week because he went to the back office. Yeah, and people be like, yeah. And they're like, All right, anybody got anything? Post, yeah, they give you the shittiest post, your last day. Oh, yeah. You know what? You be smiling. Oh, don't matter. They be like, Aren't you gonna miss this?

SPEAKER_03 44:11

They'll be like, Nope. What'd you say? You can put me an echo one.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

It don't matter, you can put me out in the middle. You know what? Don't even check with me today. You ain't just check on me. I'm good.

unknown 44:22

I'm good.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

Oh my favorite, or my favorite special post. Oh, yeah, special post special post is the worst post ever.

SPEAKER_03 44:34

Nothing, you know what's special. It sucks. That's what's special about it. Yo, from Devon McCoy, from Devon McCoy. I saved the life, one senior NCO of the year. Still got a promote. They came to P and two a chick in S1. I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_02 44:56

I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_03 44:57

I was like, yeah, I got a dip. Yeah, for sure. Uh your mind changed when you work back office, though. Most found another way to be pissed or complain. Yeah, that's true. That is true. You know what back office does? Complain about flight. It's so weird. Flight complains about back off. Or working flight.

SPEAKER_05 45:16

Or work and flight.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

Or work, yeah. And they want to tell the stories how they were the best flight patrolmen. You know what's funny is when you go back office, and you said, like the flight chief says, like, you know, hey, this hey, Erman Peterson's going to scheduler. Don't forget about us when you go back office. Don't and you'd be like, No, I'll never forget about you, man. Please, please. And you know what was the best coming outside when y'all work swing shift and I was going to lunch, and we were in the same, and seeing y'all all sitting there garb out or seeing uh uh or what's it called when you get inspected during garb out?

SPEAKER_06 45:51

I can't think of the next uh garb out.

SPEAKER_03 45:54

Well, when you actually open ranks, thank you. When you're going through open ranks, and I'm just sitting there going to lunch, don't even care. My beret all toe up, uniform looks sharp though. But hey, no vest on, feeling nice and cool, got my fleece on if it's cold, ain't y'all out there with nothing. Hey, best, the best.

SPEAKER_06 46:17

Man, Massar Boy put me on. Oh, I remember Massar Boy. Massar Boy put me on the desk my last day. I was pissed.

SPEAKER_07 46:25

The world ended.

SPEAKER_02 46:28

I wouldn't hey let the world.

SPEAKER_03 46:32

True story, DC. We'll see when he does my records. Devon McCoy. Don't be mad, bro. You got one of the best daffy picks of all time. Yeah, that's true. Devon McCoy ain't happening. Let it let it go. No, hold it in. Hold it in, Devon. Hold it to hold it close to your chest.

SPEAKER_06 46:57

Oh man. Um, so yeah, it was uh it was different when somebody left. But when you left and you went to back office, you know what it was like? It was like um it's like you get there and you lose everything you learn about, because in your mind, you like being a cop is tough, long hours, whatever. But when they be like, hey man, now that you hear me, hey, we come in well, bro. We come to work like 7, 7:30. You can come in eight if you want. You can go do PT if you want, you know, before you come to work. And if you got an appointment, hey, just let me know. You can go ahead and go to your appointment, whatever. You be like, huh? I can go to an appointment. I I gotta get nobody to relieve me. They're like, no, you go to your appointment, man. It's all good. Or my favorite 4:30 come, everybody out. You be like, Don't don't somebody got a check on me before I go? No, you just leave. And it's weird at first. Thank you for subscribing. Yeah, thank you for the subscription. Much appreciated, my brother. But anyway, so that was that was hard to get used to. Del Brown says, McCoy, I need my review to set. Dang, that's crazy work. That's crazy work.

SPEAKER_03 48:06

Last year is crazy. Last year it was crazy. That boy got promoted by there. That's crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_06 48:11

Anyway, back back office was back office was the promised land for most defenders. And and and to your point, I think there is there was a piece of back office versus flight that was that Devon, Devon McCoy says people was at Holloman five years. Commander wouldn't sign people mid tour.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

Yeah, hey, that's you know what? That's a flight thing. That's a flight thing. 430, more like 1430. Yeah, that's that's a that's a back off. Hey, I'll tell you, I think if I stayed on flight, I probably wouldn't have got a PCS medal. It would just depend on who my supervisor and flight chief was. When I went back office, I got put in for uh an award and not a back office award because we didn't have back office awards and flight awards. We just had NCO of the quarter or airman of the quarter, it don't matter where you worked at. And that's what else divided flight and back office. That's why they had to make back office award flight awards because flight would get pissed off saying back office would win. And you was crazy, back office would do their job, and they would get EPB bullets for it or quarterly bullets for it. We do our job, and our supervisor looks at me like you're just doing your job. And so it's like, why would I want to stay here? Del Brown, you probably sent it to Devon McCoy.1. So that's not his email. Anyway, but uh yeah, it's just I would say some of the best supervisors I have, some of the best, not my first couple years, but every year after that, all the best supervisors I have were back office. And maybe because they spent more time with you, maybe because there was more time to get to know you and talk and stuff like that. But flight, barely even knew my supervisors.

SPEAKER_06 50:04

That's a great point. I mean, you think on back office, you do have more time to be a supervisor. You can go through their CFE TP, you can go through their records and all that. Whereas on flight, you have one troop that may be your troop, but if you're NCO, you got other people too. They may not be your troop, but they're on your flight. So you you got people who even near troop go to you for stuff, you know, and plus you have the the dynamics of all the things that's going on every single day. So flights flight supervisors was notorious for being behind on records and all that stuff because they were so busy. And when you get off work, you're so beat, you don't feel like doing that stuff. Whereas back office, you have time to do that. You can carve out an hour to do records, you can carve out an hour to do whatever. And then let's not talk about QC. Like if you're back office, there were some bases. If you were back office, you didn't even have the QC. Talk about a part of that.

SPEAKER_03 50:58

Yeah, why QC? You ain't working flight, but those shows show up when there's a domestic or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 51:07

Devon McCoy says, and why they always make the worst human being S3 superintendent. I disagree with that. I don't disagree. I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that. I was an S3 superintendent, obviously, and I killed it.

SPEAKER_03 51:18

Whoever was the biggest kiss ass would be the S3 superintendent at the time. Whoever would kiss the chief's ass the most.

SPEAKER_06 51:25

People who usually say that because they were just piss poor performers.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

That's fine. That's fine. That's fine.

SPEAKER_06 51:33

Moving on. Um, what was I saying? Yeah. So anyway, so that's that's it. We'll go, we'll we'll transition back office. So here's another stigma. When we talk about like sections versus flight, flight not only had to worry about back office, you as a straight-legg cop, you had to worry about your canine, your catum, and your raven folks too, because they didn't consider themselves, you know, security forces. They were elite. They would say, hey, you would see a canine troop wear a beret. Hey, man, what do you do? Blah, blah, blah, blah. You black, you're a defender, right?

SPEAKER_00 52:06

I'm not a defender. I am a canine troop. I push military working dogs, and I'm one of the elites. I don't have to work flight with you. I don't have to respond to anything. I am the elite. I'm a military working dog hater.

SPEAKER_06 52:21

You be like, bullish, you're a defender just like us. Let's not talk about Raven. Haters.

SPEAKER_00 52:27

I am Raven 499X.a P A B A Bobo Prab Bro S. I do fly away security for important missions. Everywhere I go, I get to wear a flight suit. I get flight pay. I am no longer a defender, and people love me. And I get to wear a Raven tag.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Oh, don't forget about the money. Don't forget about the money.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

And I make a lot of money that you don't make, that you don't make. You are lower than me. I am a raven. I've learned how to get punched in the face, get a broken nose, and do ass techniques and say, get back, get back, get back.

unknown 53:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 53:06

Yes.

unknown 53:08

Wait.

SPEAKER_06 53:11

N C Y C because they were trash and need to be hit somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 53:15

If y'all had some, uh, if y'all had a coupon, they'd be gone in six months. Yeah? Tony Relay laugh. Dog smarter than the hair. Okay, let's relax. Let's relax. Somebody talk to dog. Let's relax. How come you don't have to do that?

SPEAKER_06 53:28

So from your perspective, you're Know Why did you go K9? Who? Dude, why did you go? Because I want to get off flight. So what I said was true, but oh, a hundred percent. Oh, a hundred percent. Oh, y'all the main ones that did not know how to do no reports. Y'all the main ones didn't know how to handcuff nobody, but y'all know how to use a dog.

Standards, Stigma, And Higher Accountability

SPEAKER_03 53:51

That's wait a minute. I was a different breed of canine. I I came up law enforcement only, so I knew how to do all so some of the worst canine handlers just did security and then wanted to be a law enforcement canine handler. Those were the ones you're right about that. Those were the ones that didn't have because they were expected to be leap elite patrolmen and canine handlers. But what happens is they just go straight canine from working a missile field forever, and they don't know how to do simple things like you said, handcuffing and searching, they don't know how to do reports, they don't know how to pull people over, give tickets. They don't all they know how to do is just work a dog. You're you're right about that. K9 used to be super skaters. Yes, they were. Yes, they were, yes, they were, yes, they were. Yes, canine still flight, though, which sucked. They didn't tell you that. Oh, we didn't get the catam yet. We didn't get the kettle yet. Catam was where it's at. The only reason I didn't go catam is because I didn't want to fix guns. It's the only reason I hated shooting, I hated cleaning guns, I didn't want to fix them. Ask flight to check on the kennels. Nah, I'm gonna ever wake up and do it. Hey, the mom really was a kid, the mom really was a kid. Pete uh said I wanted to get on flight. Exactly. They you know what's funny? When I went to K9, our K9 section was their own section, so they didn't have to work flight, they just worked when they wanted to, they didn't have to, and then I got to another base, and they were like, No, you work flight all weekends and everything. I'm like, here we go again, here we go again, here we go.

SPEAKER_06 55:34

I let's see, Justin says one of my superintendents at base honor guard was the SF Raven. He was a different breed. Yeah, he ran an honor guard like he were SF too. He didn't win a lot of people because he treated his full-time staff, us and our augmentists, like we were his guards.

SPEAKER_07 55:52

Yeah, once again.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

I am Raven 5.787653, and I am the greatest SF ever.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

You know what's crazy? What I love is when we got the uh the patches that you could wear on your uh your carrier, your plate carrier, and people would have Raven number 74793. I like or K-9, or no, Catum never had it because Catam never wore the damn plate carrier, but you would have the Raven or K Dot, it would be crazy. It would be the craziest thing. K Dot and Raven always competed for that Article 15 or court margin. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 56:33

Oh man, well, let's let's not let's not forget about Catam though. Let's give Catum some love because Catam, when you get back there, Catam, it's almost like this is their time to shine. Oh, I used to hate when I used to go fire, and you had that one dude who was on your flight, now's the Catam troop. And we're like, hey man, look, I went and looked at your target, bro. You're like two off. Hey, if you don't qualify, you're gonna have to come back and do it again later on tonight. You know, the gas mask firing. And they be like, hey, you missed a bot. You be like, bruh, you can't just give me two.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Right.

SPEAKER_06 57:06

Like, nope, can't give you two. It's important. You must be able to know how to employ your wife or whatever. Dell Brown says most of the time, folks that are on flight hating on back office personnel, the ones, same ones when job ads come out, they don't submit applications.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

That's true, that's true. They be hating, but don't want to do it. They like, oh, I'd rather we'll be on flight because they like that. They some people do like the schedule, especially if you're on Panama, because they don't want to work five days straight. So some people actually like that, and some people actually like being off on weekdays and stuff like that. So, yeah, there is some truth to that. Uh, I say K9 and Cadam got along great. We got along great with each other, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 57:45

Cause y'all was ostracized by the flight back office. Yes, y'all thought y'all would like. I used to love when they'd be like, hey, Roger, we have copy of that. We have an alarm at the financial bank. We need somebody to respond. Roger, uh, kilo nine, kilo nine. In route. I need you to respond. No, they be like, no, they be like, uh, Roger, can't do that. I'm at the Kennels. You ain't doing ish. Don't give me that crap. And when they do respond, they don't know what the hell they're doing. They be like, yo, why are you going to the building? There's an alarm activation. Uh, do you know the difference between open and closed facility, bro?

SPEAKER_03 58:22

Don't care for your dog handling. You know what the best is, what used to aggravate flight chiefs the best is that they need us to do remount. Like, no, I can't do it. Gotta feed the dogs, gotta feed the dogs, gotta feed the dogs. Or exactly kilo nine, we need you to respond. I had the kiddos feeding dogs. My dog just ate. He can't work, he just ate. Can't get bloated, can't get bloated. Uh, when the red hat looks back at you by marking your target, you know it's hey, you know it's a rap. And Dale, there are tons of people who ain't even good at flight, but want to be back office. Like, we can't rely on you at the gate. How the hell are you gonna run a pro? Hey, Josh, who that's a great point. But back office is all about hookups, all about hookups. The biggest hate I ever got, they found out my flight. Oh, it's from Devon McCoy. It's from Devon McCoy.

SPEAKER_06 59:12

Let's make sure we make it clear.

SPEAKER_03 59:14

The biggest hate I ever got, they found out my flight was in Panama 8. How the hell y'all in Panama 8s? What's the rest of the flights doing? You can't be in eights and everybody else in 12s. What the hell?

SPEAKER_06 59:27

There was some flight chiefs that did that.

SPEAKER_03 59:29

That's crazy. Gotta feed the dogs. If Scott Roy was on here, he knows what I'm talking about with that. Hey, he was a raven. I think he was a raven. I honestly, I think, yeah. Yeah, I think he was a raven. Oh, there goes Scott Roy right there. I think he's a raven.

SPEAKER_06 59:48

Let's, I mean, let's look. I I got a lot of good friends that are ravens. I'm just gonna throw it out there. Let's just have this discussion. I was. Never a raven, but come on, let's be honest. What is the difference between flyaway security and raven versus you going to Raven school and you getting punched in the face and stuff?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

What is the difference? Never was a Raven, always a Raven. Never was a Raven. Shout out, Wes Lord. Yo, you know what? I think, and y'all can correct me if I'm wrong. If there's a Raven on here, I think Raven School is the most useless school in security forces history. History. There is nothing in Raven School that prepares you for what Ravens do. Nothing. Nothing. You know what? I got more when I was with Scott Roy at RTC, and they took us through a six-minute Raven class, sitting there with your ass tucked in your damn sleeve, and sitting there when somebody comes up to the point. How may I help you today, sir? No, I need you to get back. And then you pull out your ass, whoo, get back. And then everybody come and help you out. Stupid. Raven 1208 here. There goes Wes Lawrence. No way. Scott Roy is a prime time skater. Don't surprise you. Okay. Wes Lawrence is the voice DC using your. Did y'all go to Ray? I never went to Raven school. Hell no. You know what's funny though? I tried. I tried. Y'all about to be pissed off the raven.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:39

I'm just saying, I'm just, I don't really give two ducks. I'm just being honest. You know what I mean? Let's be, I'm just, I was, I was fortunate enough. I've never been to Raven School, but in my career, I was fortunate enough, I guess you use that term loosely, to be a chief at the 811. The largest Raven group of Ravens in the Air Force. There were a lot of good, sharp ravens over there. But this nonsense I thought of how Ravens thought they were better than a regular straight leg cop and they were the leak. Give me a freaking break, bro. It's just it's the same as K9, right? Whoa. I used to have canine troops on flight, and they would some of them would be shitbags. And I would talk to them and they would just get upset because I tell them that they're not performing well. And I would tell them, like, look, you got young airmen that look up to you because they want to be you. I had a lot of young airmen want to be a canine troop, right? Right. Because it was cool. You get to pull the push your dog, and this looks cool, right? No different than Raven. But it's like they want to sit there and not do the regular stuff that the regular airmen do. That's what my issue was. But the Ravens I knew who didn't mind doing the regular stuff, straight leg cops do, coming to work, getting on, go on the flight line or whatever, doing reports. I had a lot of respect for them.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

See, Wes Lauren said, Y'all were never Raven, so how do you know it's useless?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:01

I don't need to be there to know that it's not that it's useless.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:04

My question is, what Wes, you're a little older, but what is one thing you learned in Raven school that you actually utilized in the field as being a Raven on a mission?

SPEAKER_06 1:03:16

And be unbiased. Yes, a regular pop can't do.

Leadership: Good, Bad, And Gatekeeping

SPEAKER_03 1:03:20

You know who I'm talking about in my previous Justin, I missed it. I'm sorry. Uh, Ravens were SF like a tip. The mama coins are the best. The mama coin said the best. Hey, 100%. And you know what's crazy? I went on a flyaway mission and never even went to Raven school. They were just like, hey, come on, put this flight suit on. Come on. Don't pull your gun out on nobody. All right. You're not good. I hate that they think they are elite, but the Raven world is dope as hell. I don't want to sit on the flight line. Hey, Wes, thank you for being honest. I can do that. That's why I want to be a Raven because y'all make a shit ton of money. All y'all did was run all day, work out. Y'all have a tight little community, and then made money and went on flyaway missions. That's it. That's it.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:20

Let me let me illustrate my frustration with some of the Raven community. When I was a cop at the 8-11, I found out they put out a standard that says if you're a Raven and you don't get at least a 90 on your PT test, right? You getting you getting you getting held accountable on your EPR. And I had like out of the whole, it was about maybe 90 summer ravens there. Out of the 90, it was like maybe like five or six that fell in that category, and it wasn't getting a strap when I heard about it before I took over. And I was like, this gotta be the stupidest ish I ever heard of. Like, what is the Air Force standard? The Air Force standard is you get a 75 and you pass. Anything else, if you're holding that to them, that's wrong and it's illegal. It's ridiculous. And then when the commander found out she wasn't a Raven and she agreed with it, and we changed it. And you know, those folks over there, they were pissed about it. I was like, so you mean to tell me you're going to, it's one thing to say if you don't reach this standard, then you won't get as many admissions as somebody, or you're gonna have to come in and do remedial PT. That makes sense. But you're gonna use that to hold somebody's career in jeopardy. They have a passing PT score, but you're gonna say if they don't get a 90, that's why I got an issue.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

Well, I respect I respect exactly what you said, and you're 100% right. I'm glad you're not one of these ravens that think that you go out there and save the cobalt. You you would have made sure the cobalt towers didn't collapse if you were there. I'm glad you're not one of them ravens. Uh what's the point? Uh, is just say you want the money, but the elitism is that a word was crazy. Yeah, the elitism is kind of crazy. The only Raven I recognize and they're trash, and they're trash.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:16

And they're trash.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:17

Yeah, it does reside in Baltimore. That's funny. Uh yeah, all right.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:28

Well, let's put a bow on that one. So, in the end, one of the issues about Defender is you have the internal struggle flights between flight, back office, canine, Catam, and Raven. Yes. So you have all that stuff. So you had that, all that stuff going on. Um, going back to Catam, because I don't think we spend a lot of time on Catam. We gotta got on K9, we got on Raven. Let's go back to Catam.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:55

Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on. One more thing from West Lawrence, then we'll move on. We need to realize I agree with y'all, but there are several SF cats you don't want to deploy with. Why would why would we let anyone just fly around the world and represent the Air Force? There should be a standard.

unknown 1:07:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:16

I don't know. Anyway, let's move on. Let's move on. We we had a from the mob McCoy. We had a fat dude who was raving, and we started calling him.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:27

I'm just being honest. I don't is ruthless. Ruthless. All right, go ahead. Go ahead. Next thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:38

He said catam. Um, Catam was guilty of not wanting to leave their perch over there in the catam office and come for a fight. Yeah, if we ever got low on people, we were always told by the ops officer in op suit, hey, go tap into catam. Oh my god, it was like, oh, we can't go. We got base fire this weekend, we got pink, we got this, we got that. Be like, bruh, you're a hundred percent man. But if I lose this person, one thing I'll say about cattle, catam look out for each other.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:08

They're not gonna be like flight people, they'll be like, Oh, we need somebody to work the the the air show, blah blah flight like, hey, take this person, this, take this person, then it is gonna be like, take this person, take this person, cat them. Oh no, they're gonna hey not they you're gonna take somebody from our cold crutched hand or wretched hands or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:27

Hey, Tony Renee, we're airing out all the secrets because yeah, y'all cat them. One thing about y'all, like like like Philly said, y'all gonna look after each other. That's number one. Y'all gonna make sure that y'all get enough off time. That's number two. Number three is y'all gonna make sure y'all never go back to flight again. If y'all gotta stay staff sergeants for 17 years, y'all gonna do it. Y'all gonna and you don't care. Like, I've never heard a CAM person say, I'm the best CADM instructor in the now, they never compete against each other, they're just all happy to be. And you know what? They all nobody talks about shooting, barbecues, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:07

They always got rally doing competition, like you say, competitions, they play video games, they can't. They're always away far away from the main base.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Yes, people on flight would go there to hang out, and you know what's cool about Catam is you were well liked because you would hook up the commander, the chief, the op so everywhere. Hey, don't worry about fire, yeah. Don't worry about fire, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:30

So that was I was a bit of the best. Truth be told, I was a benefit of having Catam because they took care of me to command. We got to shoot the knot in the news cig. They were like, I'm like, yo, they're like, hey, chief, you got firing? Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. So that was the thing, but back to the catam.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

Catam was smart. All right, let's get to all these comments. We got a lot of comments. Tony Renee, especially if you get attached to a special warfare. Oh, I uh is that something different? I know Catam can get attached to a special warfare, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:04

Man, they work with the Sog, you know, with Kate with Paris.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:07

We had one called, oh, that's back to the Ravens. Kong Fu Panda is crazy. Catam always thought they was special because they had them damn hair.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:15

Oh, don't get they was killing.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:17

I win, I'll win. Catam gonna cat them when you need them for yeah, they always got base pop firing when they it's like they schedule base pop around exercises or anything else, anything. I was Red Horse. Uh Scott Roy says, Catam swears they busy. I did an unannounced visit. Cats were doing the oil trip. Yes, uh, they thought they was good for uh flight gets crap on so much. Why would we peep why would people rush to go? Hey, West True, great point, yeah, that's a great point. All right, read that one.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:56

Joshua well says, one of the best and worst things was saying who you got posted with. Oh we gotta go there. We all know what it's the home of your post is about to be up. It's about to be the best 12-hour podcast episode post ever. Yeah, it's that DBA man, about to be the longest day ever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:18

We're a wing program. They're talking about cannabis, yeah. Devon McCoy, I was Red Horse, though. Uh this Red Horse thing, man. Can ever uh oh yeah, oh facts. Oh, that's a great fact. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. They always spell like that.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:41

Stop it. No, no, no, no. Stop it. That is true, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Oh man, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:50

Yeah, that's true. That is true. Stop it. Go lay down, go lay down. That's hilarious. Go lay down.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:57

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:59

Yo, but um, oh man, I lost this. This, you know, full transparency, there's a lot we could go over. So we I don't know, we might do another show on it. I don't know, but we ain't we really scratched the service.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

We even talk about the good stuff.

Promotion Ceilings And Career Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_06 1:12:13

It's just Del Brown says, My boys Catam on here right now. Do you think it puts a ceiling on your career for promotion if you've been it too long? Oh, absolutely. Tony Renee, what do you think? Out of out of from my experience, out of K9 and Catam, Catum is on the lower tier beneath K9 as far as career progression. Oh, yeah. K9 has always been the tourist leader, Cap has been master sergeant, but Catum, mostly tech sergeant. And then because like you can be, I've had bases where you were a um the Catam NCYC, you were a tech sergeant. I've had bases where you were the kennel master as a tech sergeant. And there was a fight for a long time that says, why can't it be like they'll say, I like being K9 Catam, why do I have to do something else? Like, this is what I love to do. I don't want to be a flight chief, I don't want to be an op superintendent.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:10

Tony Renee says Dale Brown. So, yes, EPB start looking the same. He needs to be the NCOIC. There's only one NCOIC. That's very true. And Gene Harris was a CADM. Says absolutely. That's one thing about CADM. You will love it while you're in, but once you're in, you're either in for life and stuck, or you have to go back to flight. Hopefully, they get numbers and you get to go back to flight because that's the only way. That's the only way. That is very true. No matter how many K Cadom bases you go to or bases you go to, you do the same thing at CADM. The same thing. At least canine's a little different. Bomb dogs, drug dogs, patrol dogs. Korea is different from a lot of bases, you know, deployments are different. Um, they changing the narrative on promotions in the SF world. Recognize that. However, some Catam cats are good with that. Changing the narrative good, bad, up, down. Our career field ages out as a senior master. Man, I would think as like a tech sard.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:17

Yeah, I would think as a master side at the least. Yeah, I put I never heard of any Cadam guys who were senior master.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:24

Well, he said you gotta leave as a senior. I never even heard no catam dudes as master. Maybe my bases ain't been big enough. Uh I put on tech and they were back to flight. Tony Renee was like, hey, flight is like the plague. Uh, I don't have an issue if they love their job. They can stay in there, just don't complain about getting feed on promotion.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:46

Great facts.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:47

Or fed or promoted.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:49

That's facts. Great point, great point. All right, so we need role players.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:54

So much to talk about here.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:55

He said we need role players. Let's go to uh let's let's talk about the leadership aspect. That has been a hot topic in security forces for a long time. We've all had good, we already talked about early, good leadership, bad leadership. But leadership is one of the reasons why most people don't want to be a cop or want to believe being the cop.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:20

I push anyone who promoted back to flight. Oh, that was that was always a thing. And then you have those one or two people that never get pushed back to flight that gets promoted. But I'm sorry, I missed your question. I missed your question. I'm sorry, I was reading that. I missed your question. Um I said bad leadership. Um one thing about security force, back to Devon McCoy's point a long time ago about if you have a flight chief that has three options, they're gonna pick the worst one. That is your example of a security forces leader right there. Right there. You have some really good ones that can still be tough, still keep standards, and still be really good supervisors. Why? Because they take care of you. The worst ones are the ones that just talk the talk, shout out Anthony Riley and never walk the walk. Those were the shout out Marquez Marquez, whatever Marquez Marquez, whatever the fuck his name is. Shout out him, shout out uh uh what's that Jackson? What's Jackson's first name? Keith Jackson, Keith Jackson, shout out Keith Jackson, bitch ass motherfuck anyway. Uh those were the ones that would sit there, sit there and just talk and not actually like I don't mind if you hold me to a standard, but when I start exceeding the standard or start holding your standard, I need you to put me in for awards. I need you to make sure I got a decoration. I need to make sure my EPB is squared away and competitive. But when you have those that just want to talk and put you to at attention because they're good at talking, but not good at doing anything else, those are the worst. All right, I'm talking too much. Oh, we got a lot of comments. Devon McCoy, my worst survisor came from Cadam. Buddy couldn't lead a stick, or Buddy couldn't lead ish. Sorry. West Laurence, same here. America forgot what forged in the fire. Huh. Okay. I don't think leadership is the reason why people hate it. It's the schedule on flight. Leadership is the problem when they don't realize how much flight and the schedule is trash. Instantly tell them how you bad. Yeah. I uh I like this retiree dad, my back. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:42

Yeah, I think I do think leadership in some cases. You you have you have two different things to consider. Like I think I would argue SF has outside of the pararescue community, in my opinion, I think the only one that can compete, in my opinion, is the pararescue community. That's had really good leadership. The type of leadership where if you were in the shit, you know what I mean, they can lead you through it, right? But then on the on the flip side, I think the only career field that rivals us when it comes to tough supervisors who were like almost cutthroat is probably the maintainers. I've had flight chiefs, if they didn't like you, you would end up on the gate three, four cycles in a row. I had flight chiefs that even though you've been on flight for a year or two years, you might still be at the same duty position. I had some flight chiefs where they would, my famous, my favorites were the master sergeants who they would work Monday through Friday and they would work seven through four, but the flights will work like staggered schedules, meaning they would work weekends or work late, and then a mass sergeant would show up, guard mount, tell the stack and staff what to do, and then go home. That's why I think some people may feel like security force leadership is tough.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:07

Yes. Uh Wes Lawrence had an interesting comment. My op supervisor, who may not be named DC, made me work mids, then come in for an ops meeting at 1300. What the hell?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:20

I'm too old to remember that. I don't remember that.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:23

He said may not be named DC. But have you ever made somebody work mids and then come in for an ops meeting at 1300?

SPEAKER_06 1:19:30

I might have.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:32

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:34

I might have, yeah. Yeah, that might, I might have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, honestly, looking at myself as an SF leader, if I were to say, probably I was notorious for being less unforgiving when you broke the law as a cop.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:54

I had a unforgiving if you oh well that didn't come out right.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:57

I was more unforgiving when you broke the law. I had a young defender now. She's a tech child to her. Um, she works in IMSC. And I remember she got promoted, and I went over to congratulate her, and she just stared at me for a minute, and she was really nice. And she was like, You don't remember me, do you? And I was like, No, she doesn't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:20

That's the worst.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:20

I was at Joint Base Andrews.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:22

That's the worst.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:23

And my job, I'm guilty of my wife told me to get on get on me all the time. When I meet so many people, and I first thing I say is, yeah, and I try to, you know, figure out, ask her questions why I know them. I couldn't place her face until she told me, Remember, you took my beret in Joint Base Andrews because I had a D UI. And when she said that, it hit me because I remember that day. And that was a tough day because it was like, I think maybe the JBA, we had so many problems with people breaking the law. And then my commander was like, start taking that beret. And you know, I was a gung ho senior at the time. I was like, Yeah, I'm all for it, man. Forget these people, they they shouldn't be wearing a beret. And she got a DWI, and it was a bad time. So yeah, I took her beret. And I remember she was in tears that day. And when she told me that, I felt I felt so low. But she's like, don't feel bad. She's like, I think it's good that you did it. I'm glad you did it. I deserved it, blah, blah, blah. Maybe she was doing that to make me feel better.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:17

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:17

Look at it. She's, you know, she's a tech, she's still in, she's thriving. That just goes to show you, you know, at the time is tough, but you can turn it around. But when I think about that, that's probably one of the darkest things I remember about my time as a like an op superintendent. Was that?

Listener Stories, Humor, And Real Talk

SPEAKER_03 1:21:33

Yeah. Let's uh let's wrap this up in the next 10 minutes. My CPU running high. But let's wrap this up and then we might have to go to part two for this. But let me uh finish this. Uh, that proves my point. Instead of leadership taking my idea of Panama 8s and seeing our schedule could be better. There, hey, Devon, if it's not their idea, it's not a good idea. You that's back office versus flight. Flight can come up because it's like I do the schedule, I know what workout better. No, we'll ask the senior who did that schedule 45 years ago what they think about it. Uh Panama 8s are undefeated. Best morale, but uh I mean, if you get mad after a Panama Eight, I don't know what's wrong with you. That's something is really wrong with you. I'm maintenance and I'm like, damn, their experience sounds familiar. Yep, Charles, yeah. We are d like y'all. Yep. I tell you, security forces to me, and I say this all the time, we're like janitors. When shit is going right, nobody cares about us. Nobody, but when shit is wrong, they're like, where the cops at? Where the cops at?

SPEAKER_06 1:22:36

I don't like that analogy. That's a terrible.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:38

If you go into a bathroom and it smells great, it looks fabulous. You're not, man, shout out to the janitor for keeping this clean. You're just like, man, the bathroom looks really nice. But if that bathroom looks like shh, you're like, Where the where's the janitor at? How come the janitor ain't doing his job? Y'all can't hire nobody. How come ain't nobody here cleaning up? That's exactly what it's like being a cop. All right, Scott Roy, that's because we live in the ish feeling. If you pile enough ish on something, eventually it grows. We grow leader. Ooh, ooh, great point, Scott.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:11

That is a good point. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:14

Hell yeah, he did. They got at me when I looked tired. Damn. All right, yeah, we're gonna have to cut this off. Uh, Dell, this is gonna be long. Uh all right, we're gonna have to cut this and then come back and do part two because I don't want this just to cut off on y'all. Does that sound fair?

SPEAKER_06 1:23:34

That's what you want to do. You the engineer.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:36

Yeah, we're gonna have to because I don't want this to cut out on y'all. Uh, so I guess, yeah, it's really gonna have to. All right, so I admit we're gonna have to do a part two, it looks like, uh, on this because uh we got some technical difficulties about to happen. So I'm trying to get in front of them because I don't want this to happen. Sorry, Dell, I didn't get to your comment. Uh Devon, I always appreciate you being on here. I'm sure Philly's gonna look after your records today at some point during the playoffs and everything. Quick playoff prediction. We only have two games, so it should be quick.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:05

Uh Rams and Patriots.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:08

All right, I got Seahawks and Patriots. Uh, I know they say Darnold, as long as he doesn't see Ghost, he'll be fine. Hand the ball off. Stafford, I see him throwing for above 400 yards. They're just gonna let him throw the ball. They're just gonna let him throw the ball. I don't see McVay being a game manager of this game. I see him trying to take over. Uh, I do admit you have more room for people to get uh in trouble though. Yeah, that's true. All right. Uh West Lawrence says Patriots and Rams. So a lot of Patriots and Rams. Wasn't that a Super Bowl? Oh, that was Tom Brady's first Super Bowl. Yep, first Super Bowl win. Uh, of course, Justin Seahawks is gonna win. Yeah, I have faith in playing at home. I have faith in him. All right, this is a great topic. So I appreciate you and I forgot her name, but whatever her name is. For suggesting this topic. Uh, so maybe next episode we'll get some cops on here. We can share our our our stories because they're a lot similar, but a lot different at the same time. A lot different at the same time. Uh Upstart Sale, when are you coming back on? Uh Philly?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:13

It's up to you, huh?

SPEAKER_03 1:25:15

We'll have to come back on sometime during the week. Maybe we'll do uh Tuesday, Tuesday or Wednesday, and then definitely Sunday. Then definitely Sunday.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:24

Always Sundays, always Sundays with Follow Hooker Crook, but in the middle of the week. We're gonna try to be a little bit more consistent, but do some shows in the middle of the week, but we're always on every Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:34

Yeah, I was gonna do playoffs today, but uh I mean they start in an hour, and enough time for my jaws to relax, pause. Uh, so won't do that. Won't do that. I got TMJ, man. I got TMJ. My jaws start hurting. I talk too much.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:56

Okay.

Wrap-Up, Part Two Tease, Subscribe

SPEAKER_06 1:25:57

Yep. Well, we appreciate y'all listening to us, man. Um, thanks for all the comments, funny comments and stuff. We'll do a part two on the next show. We'll more likely do it next Sunday. So tune in next Sunday for part two of why folks don't want to be a defender. And as always, share your comments during the show. And then the middle of the week, just be on the lookout for when we come on in the middle of the week, more likely maybe Monday, Tuesday, or something like that. We appreciate y'all. If you're not subscribed to us and you like what you heard today, and like what you saw, please go over to YouTube, go ahead and subscribe to us. You can catch all our other shows. We have plenty of shows on there to keep your interest and to keep you entertained. And in the meantime, we will see y'all on the next one. Go, birds. Peace.