The Norris Group Real Estate Podcast

EP2 | Part 1:INVESTOR CLUB ROUNDUP SHOW with Kaaren Hall & Derek Harms #913

• The Norris Group, Craig Evans

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In this episode of the Investor Club Roundup, Joey Romero chats with Kaaren Hall of OCREIA and Derek Harms of NSDREI. They explore their clubs’ missions, meeting formats, and how they're helping investors navigate today’s shifting market. From self-directed IRAs and assisted living to local real estate trends in Orange County and San Diego, this episode offers valuable insights, strategies, and the power of community in real estate investing. 

For more information on this month’s featured clubs and speakers, please see below:

Orange County Real Estate Investors Association

North San Diego Real Estate Investors Association, Inc



In this episode:

  • Meet the guests: Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA and Derek Harms of North San Diego Real Estate Investors (NSDREI)
  • Introduction to OCREIA and NSDREI: Mission, community, and core values
    Real estate meeting schedules and investor demographics in Orange County and San Diego
  • Key differences between investing in Orange County vs. San Diego real estate markets
  • Local investment strategies tailored to Southern California real estate opportunities
  • Why join a local REIA: Networking, education, and market insights



The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE License 01219911, Florida Mortgage Lender License 1577, and NMLS License 1623669.  For more information on hard money lending, go www.thenorrisgroup.com and click the Hard Money tab.


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Narrator:

Welcome to The Norris Group real estate podcast, a show committed to bringing you insights from thought leaders shaping the real estate industry. In each episode, we'll dive into conversations with industry experts and local insiders, all aimed at helping you thrive in an ever-changing real estate market. continuing the legacy that Bruce Norris created, sharing valuable knowledge, and empowering you on your real estate journey. Whether you're a seasoned pro or a newcomer, this is your go-to source for insider tips, market trends and success strategies. Here's your host, Craig Evans.

Joey Romero:

Welcome everybody to The Norris Group Real Estate Podcast and our very own what did I call this? The Investor Club Real Estate Roundup. Alright, so last month we had Christina Suter, we had Mitch Craighead and Rich Rice for our inaugural monthly show. And today we have a couple of friends of The Norris Group. We have Kaaren Hall of uDirect IRA, but she is the person in charge and who runs OCREIA. And we have with us today, also Derek Harms with NSDREI. He's the president of that club. So welcome guys. Thank you for being on.

Kaaren Hall:

Thanks, Joey, we are good.

Joey Romero:

Thank you.

Derek Harms:

So that is sure.

Joey Romero:

Last week I started with an icebreaker, and this is going to kind of be my tradition. I'm going to start with an icebreaker again. So Kaaren, we'll start with you. What is the last book that you read and what was the biggest takeaway from that book? Exclude your book.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, I know. Yeah, the last book I read was, oh, wait a minute, I just happen to have a copy a shameless plug of the A BiggerPockets Guide to Self-Directed IRA Investing. I do recommend it. But no, that wasn't the last book I read that, look, the last book I read is The Gap and The Gain and, that is, it was a good book as a timely book to read. It's, really about mindset, you know, and it's about not focusing on, you know, got, I've got this ideal up here and but I'm not measuring up to my ideal and beating yourself up, you know, it's about how far have you come, you know, and I think for all of us, and we've known each other all, a long time, we can all look back and see how far we've come and how much more positive and rewarding that is. So I didn't I thought it was going to be more of a business book. I didn't know was such a mindset book, because I a lot of people in my CEO group have read it, but it was, it was just perfect. It's always good to remember to measure our gains and our successes, and, you know, measure ourselves that way, because no one's going to be perfect.

Joey Romero:

Absolutely. Derek, what's the last book you read?

Derek Harms:

I do want to comment on The Gap and The Gain. I read that a couple years ago, and I definitely vouch for that book. And I think for me, it was just like almost one simple sentence, and it's pretty much in the title of that book. So focus on the on the gain, not the gap. And it's so easy in our industries, to always be chasing that next achievement, that next milestone, that next income number, or that next amount of properties. And it's so easy to let yourself get in this weird mindset funk of always focusing the gap that you have yet to get over, and the gain is just so much more important. I mean, you look at our careers, where we started, however many years ago, and it's like, focus on that and the gains you've made, and it's just such a better way to live. So Kaaren, I'm glad you mentioned that's a great book for me. I'm going to go a little different direction with this. I've read a lot of the personal development books, and, you know, the self improvement and I currently still read quite a few of them, and I have, I have one right now that I just started reading called Unstuck. The last self improvement book I read was called the 12 week year. But I'm going to go a different direction, as I said. And I just finished a book called Forgotten Island, and it to most people that will mean anything. But it's a, it's a it's a book, and it's a true story about a man in World War Two who was stuck on an island in the Pacific that the Japanese invaded and on Midway and he was able to go and hide out for three years before the allies came back to save him, essentially, and it's this really cool story of how he worked at the locals and hid in caves, and I almost was caught and shot a bunch of times. And honestly, like in that book, I just realized how much I missed reading in a non fiction book that wasn't about personal development, it was just nice to have that, like just kind of escape and have some reading that wasn't just focused on getting better at something.

Kaaren Hall:

I gotta ask, did the guy have a volleyball, right?

Derek Harms:

Yeah, no, no volleyball. But man, did he have all kinds of different things that were just crazy to think about and we forget about, you know, being so long ago. Yeah, World War Two wasn't that long ago. So it's just really cool, really cool read.

Joey Romero:

So what was your takeaway?

Derek Harms:

My takeaway was that I needed, I need to read more non fiction, non personal development books that that was my takeaway. I was, I really enjoyed it, and it was such a nice thing to do before I went to bed, I found myself looking forward to it every night. And that was my takeaway. Was that, Okay, I gotta mix in some more of these. It's a really nice balance.

Joey Romero:

Awesome. Well, the I'm currently reading Poor Charlie's Almanack, and that's, I'm just starting out. It's really interesting. I love how he's talking about, you'd need to know a little bit about everything you know. But the last book I read that I finished was Die with Zero, and it's basically the premise. And my takeaway is, well, first of all, he's like, try to find out. Like, when you're estimated, like, he's like, literally, like, go to the actuaries and try to find out where you're going to live to and then give yourself a little bit of space. But the goal is to not get to the end of your life and have all this money saved up, because a lot of people end up with, you know, couple million dollars, and then they die, or they get to a place in their life where they can't travel physically anymore. You know, they they run out of friends, they run out of family, they run out of the things that bring him enjoyment. So he's like,find your your peak, and then, you know, kind of stop working. And basically your job, or your life, should be about not how much you save, but how many memories can you bank. Because nobody at the end of the at their life and their deathbed is going to be like, well, let me check my balance. They're just going to recall all those things that they did and all those things that they didn't do. So that was a really cool book that was your...

Kaaren Hall:

I'm Like, what I do at Christmas is I give my kids experiences and not gifts, because see, if you try to remember what you got last year for Christmas under the tree, you won't remember, but you'll remember a vacation, right?

Joey Romero:

Yeah, of course. Alright, so, Derek, go ahead.

Derek Harms:

No, I said absolutely I'm totally on board with that.

Joey Romero:

So Alright, so let's get into the show. A little bit more about the club. So Kaaren, I'm going to give you the first opportunity, because Derek's Club is a little bit different. You're the owner of OCREIA. So tell us about OCREIA, where it's at, when it meets, you know, and what's all about?

Kaaren Hall:

Like the history of it, or where we're at....?

Joey Romero:

Not quite yet, just like, you know where you are right now.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, where we're at, well, you know, we were hoping in 2025 to get back to regular in person meetings. So we started with Bruce in January. But the what I found ever since COVID, when we went on Zoom, that we have a lot of national speakers. And so we're really able to attract a lot of the top speakers because we're on Zoom, and so it's a higher quality presentation. You know, some of the top speakers, like, I don't know, besides Bruce, but so, so we'll do other things that are local, but we're going to keep the club on Zoom for the time being, because that's how we can get the best speakers. So that's where we're at right now, with Vinny Chopra coming in to talk about residential assisted living. And it's really a timely thing, because I'm sure you've heard of the silver tsunami, right? Yeah,

Joey Romero:

Well, especially since we've been in Florida.

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, you're right. So 10,000 people turning 65 every day, you know, for yeah, it was 10 years. And I'm sure it's still going on. I mean, so we've got all these seniors, and I think seniors out for the first time, like ever in American history, outrank newborns. So as our population actually shrinks, which is surprising. And so all these seniors need a place to live, and, you know, and so, these residential assisted living homes, is a great way for investors to invest, but also to provide community service. And it's great for IRAs. It's a passive kind of a thing. And so it's, you know, just ticks all the box, all the boxes in my world.

Joey Romero:

When do you guys meet?

Kaaren Hall:

We meet the second Thursday of every month. We always have since 2012 and we're meeting on Zoom.

Joey Romero:

Okay, Derek, now yours is a little different, because when I first came over with The Norris group, it was Eric Siragusa, who's the president. You guys actually run the the club a little bit different, it's a, you know, it's NSDREI, and it's got a board, right? And so you're the president board. How does, how does that work? Can you tell people how the board works? And then go into when you guys meet, and you know what your focus is?

Derek Harms:

Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned that, because I do hear people incorrectly, call it my club, right there, if you're a club, and I know that's just people saying that, because I'm the face of it in front of our audiences and on our zoom calls, etc, but it truly is a a cumulative group effort. We do have a board of directors. There's nine of us, and it takes every one of us and all of our energies and efforts to keep the quality that we like to think that we have and it's it really is a blessing to work alongside so many great people. And you know, people sometimes forget that. You know, we are a legitimate 501(c)(6) nonprofit organization, and all of us are volunteers, and we donate our time and energy and efforts to keep this thing, keep this thing going. And I'm really grateful to be a part of it and to have such a great, a great group, because it when you get into the weeds of these things, right, there's the location you have to deal with the food and the drinks and the payments and the lights and the projectors and the screens and audio video and the financials and the nonprofit reportings and like all this stuff, right? That, like people who show up, come and do some networking, have a drink and learn something that night, and maybe, maybe make a relationship or two and then move on. It's really easy to not remember, like, Oh, hey, there is a lot of energy that goes into this. And not to say that from a negative perspective, but from a grateful place, like I am grateful for all of us on the board that that are willing to do that. And we meet the third Tuesday of every month in VISTA at the Shadowridge Country Club. Shadowridge Golf Club, I should say VISTA is in North County San Diego. The NSDREI acronym is North San Diego Real Estate Investor Association. Kind of a lot of words there, but our name depicts who we are, North San Diego Real Estate Investor. And we actually are doing things a little different moving forward. So we have a zoom call in in April coming up in in a week, but then towards the end of the year and into next year, we're moving into back into full in person events. And we love the zoom capabilities of capturing speaking talent from across the country. Although some of that is lost, we feel some of the essence of of a real estate investor association is about the networking and the developing relationships and getting to break bread and shake hands with those that are in your industry. So we're starting to move back to that you're moving forward, and we cannot be more grateful. And of course, The Norris Group, starring Bruce Norris will be joining us in person June at our 21st anniversary party. Yes, that is correct. We have been an organization for 21 years, and hopefully 21 more.

Joey Romero:

So Derek, take me back to when you first came on board, like, you know, your first day at NSDREI. How long were you an investor that just came to the meetings before you joined the board, before you, you know, rose through the ranks.

Derek Harms:

So I will do my best to keep this short, but there are some interesting details that went into this. So I believe this was 2014 that, my partner and I had a house that we were flipping in in a town called Poway, which is the North San Diego suburb, and a gentleman called me and asked me to meet him at the property. He was an interested buyer. We had the home on the market, and he did not have a buyer's agent. I was listing the property as the agent, and I show up to the property, and I mind you, I had just started going to the NSDREI and SDCIA, and anything I could do to really saturate myself in San Diego, real estate investing, and I see a gentleman open the car door, and I look at him, and I'm like, "Huh, wait, you're the president of the NSDREI, right? And I just joined your club. I've been going now for a handful of months." And so we started chatting. That was Eric Siragusa, and so he and his wife were there to look at the house, and we ended up getting multiple offers. And it didn't end up work out, working on for Eric and Susan. But what did work out was I knew that there was a situation across the street with an agent friend of mine, it was a divorce situation, and ended up calling that agent, and we worked out a deal to where Eric and Susan bought that house, and they lived there for many years, and it was a really sticky, tricky transaction with a lot of hair on it, and we ended up getting the deal done. And after that, Eric was like. "Hey, I really like the way you handled that transaction. Would you be interested in potentially helping out on the board a little bit more?" And it didn't start as an official board position. I was helping out with marketing, and then I believe that I was doing that for a year, maybe more than that. And then a board position opened up, and they voted me on the board. And I believe in 2020, was when, 2021 was when Eric formally moved to Florida and vacated the President's spot. Eric is still a very cherished member of our board of directors, and we appreciate all his years of insight and experience and input. But now I have, I've been the president now for the last four years. This will be the fifth, the fourth year.

Joey Romero:

So, Kaaren, when did you start OCREIA?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, I started in 2012 and so, you know, I'd started uDirect Ira services in 2009 and then REIA, when you have a REIA, which is a Real Estate Investor Association, it's a part of a national group called International Ria, obviously. And so there's a REIA in every NSA major statistical area, or metro Statistical Area, something like that. So the REIA for Orange County, well, I got a call, and the people from national rear were saying,"Yeah, we want you to open the one in Orange County." And I said, "no, like, I've got two kids, raising two kids, and I, you know, got this, you know, business, and I just don't have bandwidth." And so they said, so they kept talking to me, Well, you know, like, why don't you come to what is it? It's Seattle. It's not It's Bellevue. Bellevue Washington. It's so beautiful. "We're having a conference come over to Washington and to Seattle and come to this conference." So I did, after telling them No numerous times. So I go with this huge conference, and there's a speaker way there, up in the front and it's getting toward the end there, and then, as they're saying, the closing comments, the speaker from the front says, and "We would like to welcome our newest club president, Kaaren Hall." It's just volunteers. So I thought, well, what the heck, you know? We and just cut it and dug in, you know, got a website, got the marketing, you know, and everything found on venue. Which is, which we used the whole time. It was, you know, the Avenue of the Arts hotel in Costa Mesa. What a great venue, right by the symphony hall and everything. And so we met there for years and years up until 2020, COVID. And then now we just when Bruce was in town, we came back. Wow, that was something dusting off the equipment. But, that's a lot of years, you know, that's like it's 12 plus years. You know, we're in our 13th year of meeting every Thursday, every Thursday, every second Thursday of the month.

Joey Romero:

Well, I gotta commend both of you, because it's not easy. I know it's just a monthly you can say it's just a monthly gig, but to put that all together, you know, sometimes, you know, I'm scrambling to get just a guest on the podcast. It's not easy all the time, except for you guys to be doing it for that long and just the impact that you're having on everybody, it's great. So Derek, who's attending your meetings, you know? Is it realtors? Is it brand new, investors, season, bets, who? What's your demographics like?

Derek Harms:

So we like to take the temperature of the room pretty often, and I would say it's a myriad of all kinds of different folks. We have some really experienced investors with huge portfolios, and a lot of first timers have never done a deal. And then really every type of investor in between, you know, one to two deals, 10, 20, and I think that's what's great about it, is that you can get in a room where you can make some connections for people to learn and to absorb some of the knowledge that some of these guys possess from being in the trenches for so long. We have realtors, we have tradesmen, you know, such as contractors or real estate photographers or staging companies, etc. So it really is everything real estate. And you know, you do get a lot of the retail side, so realtors, etc. But what I like about that is that being a realtor is a really good path to becoming your own investor and you have access to inventory. And I believe you and I and Bruce talked about this on a podcast a couple years ago. It's about that kind of natural trajectory that you can take having the realtor background. And so we, really do look forward to having all different demographics show up. And we always ask people at the beginning of each meeting to raise their hand if it was their first time. And we're always blessed to see how many times people raise their hand and have come to the club for the first time, and it really puts a smile on your face.

Joey Romero:

Kaaren, same question, who's coming to OCREIA?

Kaaren Hall:

Yeah, well, I don't see them because they're on zoom right buT a lot of times it's a self directed IRA investor too, since we've got that tie in and people who are trying to learn about real estate investing, and so we talk about all the aspects of it. I know NSDREI does as well, but like bringing in Keystone CPA to talk about tax, or maybe cost seg, or talking about the different asset classes as well. So it's, you know, it's largely investors, and they've always got really great questions. But I love what Derek said about having a career in real estate, how that leads to being a good investor. That's my background as well, is Real Estate and and it's just, it's just a fascinating way to build wealth. I think if I could just back up a little bit, when I, in 2012 you may remember, obviously, the Great Recession, and you could buy properties on tape. Remember that? And so everybody in the room was a flipper at the time, you know that was the audience, and people were buying properties for, you know, 40, $50,000 all over the country. And it was, it was really the Wild West, it seemed, where you could just crazy. You could buy so much property. And of course, things change. And I just am thinking about as the years go by, like, especially looking at Bruce's charts, like, I remember during the recession, thing, he is never going to get better, you know, like, how are we going to get out of this? We had this, like, large amount of inventory, remember, like, the shadow inventory. How will we ever overcome this? And no matter what problem we've ever been up against, that's what I love about Bruce, is, like, we've gone through everything, you know, it just wasn't that, which is things work themselves out. There's a, you know, and I'd need a buyer for for every piece of real estate, and an answer for every situation. And that's what we like to cover at OCREIA, you know, all the various aspects of real estate investing and the challenges and the solutions.

Joey Romero:

Well, that's one of the things that, you know, I always ask Aaron, why do we go to these specific clubs? I know there's a bunch more clubs, and he would just say, these are the ones that we trust for one, they're focused on, not what they can get out of the people attending. But, you know, how can they help, You know, investors and really a focus on education, you know. I know, I know Kaaren and you used to, I mean, you still do a little bit of a local economic update every meeting. And Derek, I know you've been a data guy forever. So my next question, and Kaaren, on, you guys live in kind of like a you're you guys have an interesting pocket. You know, I like, I love the way that San Diego describes itself. But Kaaren, I ask you first, you know, what's unique about investing in Orange County?

Kaaren Hall:

That you don't do it. Just kidding. Unless you're Lynn, he you know, it's tough Orange County, it's tough to cash flow. You know, there's just no question the, you know, just a lot like San Diego too, but the values are very high. So people are doing interesting things, and we'll have meetings about this. For example, ADUs, when they came up with the idea that HOAs can't tell you, I have no say in whether or not you have an ADU on your property, that was a real way for investors to improve what they're doing. Then we have investors like Kristi Cirtwill, right? And she's the ADU girl, for sure, but buying single family homes, and adding the ADU and getting investor money and just, you know, doing the whole soup to nuts thing like that, and other people too, from from LA like Deborah Rozo and Jennifer Maldonado, who would buy a lot, tear it down and build a Fourplex, you know, rezone a single family to a multi family, and have forced appreciation like that. And that was a really great play. So I suppose that's how people are doing it in Orange County. Of course, we have the high end investors who have houses that are worth $50 million on the Newport Coast with their own private beach. But that's not everybody, is it? You know? So you'll have, you'll have the one offs.

Joey Romero:

Derek, what's unique about investing in San Diego?

Derek Harms:

So I would say a few things. I think geographically, number one, the first thing is interesting. And I've said this before, but I'll say it again, right? We have mountains to the east, Camp Pendleton to the north, the ocean to the west, and Mexico to the south. And almost all of the desirable buildable land has been built on in San Diego County that really the only tracks of land that are large enough to build subdivisions on are in south, southeast county or north, northeast county. So like we're talking a significant drive away from San Diego Metro, and there are moments being built out there, for sure, but really it puts an emphasis and a premium on the existing stock in San Diego County. And it's really good for people who have house flipping operations, like myself, because people still will probably, I say that probably, but I imagine San Diego will be a place that people want to live in forever. I mean, it's, it really is a special place to live, and it isn't called the finest city in the world for no, sorry, America's Finest City. Sorry, that's the proper term, right? It's not called America's Finest City for for no reason, right? It really is beautiful. And so we feel that there will always be a demand for housing here in San Diego, we have a lot of biotech, military and hospitality and healthcare. So a lot of the main drivers here are still here, and so we feel that there will be a demand for San Diego for a long time. But keep in mind, San Diego, along with every market, really, that's what I love about real estate investing. If you're buying, picking off one property, two properties here and there, it's an imperfect market, and you can always find a deal if you make enough offers, if you know how to negotiate, you know the right people. And it's not like you're going on Charles Schwab and trading a stock, you know, a share in the video, where it's going to be the same price throughout the country. No, it's if you know how to work a deal, you can always find something it's harder to do right now, that's for sure. It we're seeing, we're seeing a tighter market right now, and you have to be razor sharp with your underwriting, but it's totally doable. I mean, we're still buying properties every month and we're comfortable and confident that they'll always be able to.

Joey Romero:

Well, that's what Bill Allen was talking about is our jobs as investors are finding inefficiencies in the market and then knowing your numbers and how to take advantage of those inefficiencies, right?

Kaaren Hall:

You remind me of Pete Fortunato. "Why would you sell a beautiful home like this?"

Joey Romero:

Yeah. Alright, everybody that's going to do it for part one of our Investor Club Roundup Show. Please stay tuned next week for part two. See you then.

Narrator:

For more information on hard money loans, trust deed investing, and upcoming events with The Norris group. Check out thenorrisgroup.com. For more information on passive investing through the DBL Capital Real Estate Investment Fund, please visit dblapital.com.

Joey Romero:

The Norris Group originates and services loans in California and Florida under California DRE license 01219911. Florida mortgage lender license 1577 and NMLS license 1623669. For more information on hard money lending go to thenorrisgroup.com and click the hard money tab.