🗣 In this episode, John and La'Fayette are joined by special guest Rusty Chadwick, Director of Winshape Teams , Co-author of Team Work: 13 Timeless Principles for Creating Success and fulfillment as a Team Member, and adventure enthusiast. La'Fayette, John, and Rusty discuss how making minor adjustments can make a major impact within your team, community, family, and business. Did you know that self-less behavior is life-giving but selfish behavior is life-taking, and both are contagious?! Hit that PLAY and SHARE button to hear more of how you can develop a team-first mentality!
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A podcast where we are seeking to lead change, we're also seeking to understand were also here as a platform to our leaders to come together, to unite, to develop into an empower other leaders in the areas of business, family, faith and community. I'm your host, Margaret Lane Jalapa, my co-host, John LeBrun. And today we are joined by special guest Rusty Chadwick, director of Winshape Teams. Put those clap emoji's in the comments with his hands together for our special guest today, who is from Rome, Georgia. He is the husband and father of two. Director of Winshape Teams. And he's also the coauthor of Teamwork 13 Timeless Principles for Creating Success and Fulfillment as a Team Member. And he's an adventure enthusiast. And today, Rusty has joined us to have an incredible conversation about developing a team first mentality, hit that subscribe button there. So our YouTube channel on all of our various social media platforms. So you can hear more of this incredible conversation. Let's get right into the conversation, Rusty. You talked about your your area of expertize is in team building. When many people think about teams or how to think about things, I think about it from a sports aspect. I've been enjoying the NBA playoffs between the Phenix Suns and the Milwaukee Bucks. And one thing about the playoffs is that's different than a regular season is that you get to play the same team in a seven game series. That's seven game series. You can study the other team's moves. You can study their plays. And you can make adjustments by watching film. I went to your website and you had a quote there that knocked me off of my seat. And I want you to unpack this. The quote said, Micro adjustments can lead to a major impact. What does that mean when you talk about those micro adjustments, restI? That leads to a major impact, because I feel that a lot of times people want to make change, but they're fearful that they don't have enough movement, are enough things to make a major change, or they feel like they have to make a major move to make a major change so they don't make change at all. But you're saying that you can make a small micro adjustment and they can have a major impact. Tell us more about what you mean by that. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Yeah. And thanks to both of you for having me on. Look forward to chatting with both of you. It's a pleasure to be here. And yeah, that's a great I think for me that really you talk about sports in NBA playoffs. One of the sports that I really enjoy is adventure racing. And it's a little is a little bit lesser known than NBA basketball, but it's a team sport where you travel hundreds of kilometers, oftentimes by bike and trekking and paddling all under human power as a team and use a map and compass to find checkpoints along the way. The one thing that you quickly learn when you're using a map and compass, is anyone out there who's done any kind of orienteering or used a compass in any way? You know, it doesn't take long if you're heading for a checkpoint about a mile away. If you get off one degree or two on your on your compass bearing, then you're going to miss your checkpoint by a long way in the further you travel towards it, the further away you get from it. And that also works in the positive as well. And so when we look at that preferred future, that place we want to be, it is so tempting to to think, oh, I got all these changes I want to make. And either we we we go all in and try to do these major things and they don't stick. Or like you said, we get so fearful that we're so far from where we want to be that it's just too hard to change and we don't start. And so I think that that that quote really comes from the idea that when we take the pressure off of ourselves to try to make all this change at once and just think of one small thing that we can start tomorrow and do and then do that again the next day, that the compounding effect of that over time will bring us much closer to where we want to be and where we are today. It's it's been a very empowering thought for me. And I think it really is encouraging for me and hopefully for others to think about the fact that those small adjustments over time can really bring us where we want to go. Yeah, absolutely. I love how you said taking the pressure off of yourself, because we do that so much. Most of the pressure that we feel, the day to day basis is now from the outside is that internal pressure that we put on ourselves. Pressure to be better as a family man, pressure to be better in our business. And a lot of times the pressure is not even real. Pressure is something that we've made up. But you talk about taking the pressure off of yourself, and I think you're leading into the aspect of taking that pressure and making it to cohesive energy with other team members. Most of us. Why, why that's important, to take that pressure off of yourself and to have that that mean the US mentality instead of I'm intaglio. We've all heard the different quotes. There's no I in team and team work makes the dream work. Talk to us because that's what you specialize in. Why is it the team first mentality was that. Well, I think for anybody who's ever been on a team, you know, sometimes those experiences are great and they're fulfilling. You talk about sports or other things, you can think back to those team experiences where it's really been amazing. The camaraderie was there and you felt strong. But a lot of us also have those experiences. When you think about a team where you think, I kind of would rather done it by myself, I would be easier. It was more we're trying to get along with everybody and get everybody together like a class project and school where it's sort of, you know, somebody is doing all the work, somebody is not doing anything. And you kind of get this whole whole process. And I think that within that, over time, there can develop a sense that really my goal in the team is to, I think, remember the Titans. They said it best and will look out for me and I'm going to get mine. And the guy says, well, that's the worst attitude I've ever heard. You know, that's not a team first mindset. But I think it comes from the sense that, you know, who else is going to look out for me. I need to make sure that I get you know, the boss sees my performance, that I make sure I get ahead. Or if I do extra work for you, that's going to hold me back. But ultimately, I think when we can understand that a team truly, if you are a team, then we all win or none of us do. That's that's a team. That's how it works. You can't have the wide receivers can't win the game while the quarterback loses. It doesn't work that way. And so we all win or none of us do. And when we can switch that mindset to thinking that way, then all of a sudden it's not one plus one plus one equals three. We get that compounding effect of one plus one plus one equals, you know, five or six. And the whole effort becomes much more into results than it ever could be with one person by themselves or just a group of people working alongside each other. And so that the team first mindset, I think, is is critical in the fact that it points us to better results and brings those forward. But also in the end, is a lot more fulfilling than just working for yourself. And, you know, selfishness is is is in our nature. We all have those selfish components and it's contagious but self-serving. But other serving is contagious as well. When we start serving each other and putting the team first, that catches on to and the outcome is usually much, much better than the alternative. Yeah, you talked about you. Sometimes it's you know, I wish I could have just did that on my own. You know what have came out better because what I rely on somebody else, it comes out worse. And, you know, I could do that all by myself. That type of mentality. But what does one do when you do have weak links on your team? You know, that's a great question. I think a few years ago we set out to figure out what makes a team great, what's a great team look like, because, you know, you hear about it all the time. We wonder what does it? So we try to say, let's find a team that has had sustained performance over time. They have they have been champions and they've done it year after year. And we came across an adventure racing team, adventure racing earlier in adventure racing team from New Zealand. And they have won the world championships six years in a row. And so we said they're doing something right now. Adventure racing is unique at that level because it's a team of four. And you have to stay within a hundred meters of each other all the time. And so you can't separate and you're talking about, you know, five or six days of racing day and night. You race all night long. The clock doesn't stop. And so this is a unit moving together. And so when you talk about weaknesses, that's one of things we were looking for is, you know, obviously they're going to be times where somebody strong and somebody is weak, but you can't go forward without all the team members moving at the same time. And we wanted to see what made them so great. So we actually flew to this island off the coast of Africa and the world championships in twenty eighteen. They're racing on Reunion Island. And we followed them and we filmed them and we interviewed them and we studied what they did. And and, you know, that year they won the world championships again in one hundred and seventeen hours. And, you know, as we interviewed them and watched them, what we found was there is no, you know, individual component. It's always a team mindset. And so if someone is struggling in the back, one of the team members who had been there prior said we would never think of Rotty out in front and telling that person to go faster. That doesn't help them. You have to go back and help them go faster. If that means I put your backpack on and I carry it for a while so that you can keep up, that means later on when you come right, you can carry my backpack. And so when we're a team, it becomes less about saying you're weak so I can be stronger if you weren't here, but saying where are the weaknesses here and how can I help build, build upon those or support those so that because we're all going to have them. And when we work together in that way, you know, we're able to be much more successful. Sugar. So less about the superstar. More about the team as a whole. Yeah, I think I think what stood out in that is the idea that it's not even it's it's not even thinking so much less about yourself, but recognizing that if we're working as a team, then our destinies are linked. The end goal is, is is what we're pursuing. The common purpose that we have is is not going to be achieved more effectively by me just pushing harder myself. But that will we are healthier together, then we're going to get farther into the whole mindset shifts. And so then we're able to share resources with one another and those kind of things, because they're not my resources, they're ours. They're too resources. So my knowledge, my my resources, my staff, my budget, those kind of things all become shared resources that we use to achieve our common goal. So what do you what do you do then? Curious if you if someone on the team does not have that sort of ingrained, that team first mentality always have every now and then is that rogue person who has talent, who has potential. You think they could be a great team member? But sometimes, especially when someone's new to a team, they often feel the obligation to prove that they are worthy of the team or better than somebody or should be a part of this team. They just need to prove themselves maybe for their own ego. How do you work with that individual to explain to them like, hey, this is the team before it's you? Yeah, and I do think that that is common and it probably happens in both ways. You probably have some folks where they come in and they really want to prove themselves. And so there really are working individually to get to get the the attention they need to show that they're capable of being there. And then you also have folks, I think, to try to hide in the team that come in and saying, hey, you know, when I'm by myself on stage or if I'm running a marathon alone, there's nowhere to hide. I mean, it's just me. So I've got to be on. But if I've got five people on the team that maybe I can kind of just to work a little bit and it's going to get covered up by the group. And so you have folks that they can take that approach as well. And I think, you know, obviously the approach you take with each of those situations would be different. But I do think that the fundamental beginning place is the team leader has to start by setting the tone and saying making sure everybody in the team knows what the philosophy, philosophy, excuse me, of that team is. And so there is a sense in which you have to begin by saying this is going to be a team with a team mentality. That is our culture. And if you're someone who's coming in thinking you have to prove yourself, then let me just again, take the pressure off and free you from that thought, because that's not our expectation. But at the same time, if you're someone who thinks you might be trying to hide in the team and recognize that's not going to be that's not going to fly, you're either you're kind of setting those expectations early. And with the first example you mentioned with the person who's trying to prove, I think there is an element when I think about what makes a great teammate and well, actually, we talk about this in teamwork, is the idea that the very first thing you need to do to be a great teammate is own your role. So you do have there is a sense where you get to come in and say that my job description of the expectations for me are these things. And so I need to first, before I focus on anything else, focus on doing those to the best of my ability. So there is a sense which, you know, as an individual team member, I'm still trying to make sure that I do everything that I have in my ear, responsibility with excellence. And that is a way that I serve the team. But there's there's a definitely a difference in that and trying to say to the exclusion of serving anyone else, I'm going to focus only on my own things to get the best individual result, no matter what that does to the team. And those are two very different approaches. Yeah. So like Patriot football. I mean, I have a couple of regroup years, but we cannot can't nobody can argue that they had one of the greatest dynasties ever. And I'm not a Patriots fan, but I know from watching and kind of kind of studying a little bit about how they developed that winning culture, they would have things on the wall like the quote would just say, do your job all through the training room, do your job. And the focus was, you don't need to come out here and do his job or their job. You do the best at your job. You shine at your job, and that's good. The running back could be amazing. But if he doesn't allow the offensive line to block and create the whole he's he's going to want to take too many hits and probably not finish the season. But he's not going to get nearly as far. That's why a lot of college running backs get into the NFL and have a hard time at first because they just want to hit the hole and run. But the hole has developed. They've got to learn to slow down, let it open, then hit it similar. So I can I get what you're saying is basically succeed at your part. Don't worry about, you know, Bobby's part, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, sometimes we can get caught up in that. There's a great story in the Bible that speaks to this. And, you know, it's it's been taken in other ways as well. But in the in it talks about, you know, in the the times that were being written about there, that, you know, Roman soldiers could ask other folks to carry their cloak for them. And so it talks about, you know, when you're asked to carry the cloak room while you go the extra mile and carry the code the second mile. And that's a way of demonstrating that you're not just going to do the bare minimum. And I think that, you know, obviously there's there's so much wonderful to glean there, something that stands out to me, and that is to remember that in order for the second mile of carrying the cloak to actually have the impact that we want it to, you have to carry the first mile first. And so forget about the first mile. So in trying to do the extra or the other or the new thing that's going to elevate it, that only has the impact we see when the first mile's done. So if you go into a bathroom and they've got beautiful mouthwash put up and it's got Handsell there, but the toilets dirty, then you're not going to get that sport by the first mile and then you can do the extras. So I was reading about those Roman soldiers once, and I was explaining the the shield and the purpose of the shield wasn't even for their own protection is for the guy next to them. And therefore, they were totally reliant on the person next to on their other side to. Hold this, Joe, properly for them. Right now, we've talked we've talked about some obstacles, Rusty. But can you give us some specific common obstacles that hinder team performance? I feel like we know some of them, but I feel like there are others that maybe we overlooked, as you said about we've overlooked in that first MOU is while the team is not successful, what are those common ones that you've seen that hinder team performance? And what are some ways that team members can help his or her team members overcome those obstacles? Yeah, I think, you know, we kind of spoke a little bit. The one of I think a big obstacle course to team success is each person just focusing too much on on themselves and forgetting that the team goal is the major benefit. I think we talk about personal excellence being really important for a team member owning your role. But beyond that, I think the antidote there is to think about owning more than your role once you've taken that first mile and a reference, that adventure racing team that we studied at. One of the things that I thought was a really profound quote, Stuart Lynch, who's on the team and it's been a world champion seven or eight times over the years or six with this team and the other teams. I asked him what makes a great teammate, what makes a great adventure racing teammate? And he started out by saying what we've kind of talked about. He said, actually, it starts with being a little bit selfish. So let me explain that. You know, when you first come in, you do have to make sure that you take care of yourself, that you that you're eating properly and that you're fueling properly and drinking water. Because if you don't do that and you try too hard to do everything for the team, then you're going to you're going to be in a bad place. And the teams, you have to carry you through the race. But he said once you once you've gotten past that and you're taking care of yourself properly, he said, we don't walk along thinking, am I doing everything I'm supposed to be doing when I'm traveling down the trail with the team? What I'm thinking is, am I currently doing everything I can be doing to help this team be successful? Am I currently doing everything I can be doing to make this team? And I think that is so profound, because there's a fundamental difference in that question. Then am I doing everything I'm supposed to be doing? We have to start there and make sure that we're doing that like we talked about. But if we stop there, then we're really only going to have individuals working alongside. It's really not a team. It's just people doing their role. And so in a sense, we have to say we got to start there, but then we have to look around and say, what would help this team be successful? That's currently not happening and how could I step in and fill that gap? And that's the sacrificial service component that when you add it to personal excellence, is just, I think, a recipe for for a much more healthy and fulfilling experience. So I think that's one common challenge. It's focusing only on your own efforts and not looking for ways to serve and other other things outside of your own. You're your own responsibilities. Yeah, what what would you say to the individual that says, I'm not selfish, I'm OK, I want to be a good team member, but I also have my own personal goals as well? No, I want to develop personally whether whatever is in the leadership perspective or within the company climb that corporate ladder. How can I do that if I'm just focusing on having that team first mentality? They so like if I put the team first is going to hinder my own personal development or progress. What advice would you give to that person that has that thought process? Well, I definitely would say I agree with you. I have my own goals as well. So I don't feel bad. It's not wrong to have individual aspirations. And I don't think the idea that maybe that's part of the challenge here, Lafeyette, is that sometimes we think about that team first mentality. It feels like we're saying, man, I have to sacrifice success for myself or or goals I might have for the sake of that. And actually, I think what we've seen is it's really just not the case that, you know, when when each person is working with the mindset to say, I want to serve this team so that we can perform at our highest level, then all the members rise at the same time. And so in a sense, when that when that when those results are accomplished and it's a fulfilling process, then ultimately we all win in that. And so there may be times where you're putting aside a personal objective to help someone else. But I think in the end, the outcome of that is that the entire team performs better and that that serves the individual goals as well. So it was I think what we think is going to help us get ahead. Actually doesn't end up having that result. And there may be a few you who are who get seen in that way for a time. But I think in the end, that's not really going to produce the outcome that we hope it will. So you're saying that being a team member is preparation for having that more formal leadership position? I definitely think that. Personally, I believe that servant leadership is the highest form of leadership, and so I think its leaders were called to serve and that in serving others, that that's that's where we're going to have the most powerful impact as leaders when we influence through service. And I think that if we if we expect that we can be a teammate who is self-serving, but then we become a leader, we would we would be other serving. That's not that's not going to happen to a team or a team member. That's when the the the preparation happens. That's where we serve in those small ways. That's when we learn to be excellent in the individual responsibilities we have and to look for the other ways we can serve outside of those. And that way, when we become a leader, we're already prepared for that. And I think when you think about leaders who are not other serving who don't have that mentality, it's not a pleasant experience. We don't want to work for leaders like that. Sometimes that's maybe a way even to to think about ourselves, about whether we value this idea of servant leadership to say, well, who do I want to work for? I want to work for a leader to say, here's my ambition, here's my career goals, I'm going to do whatever I have to achieve that. And whatever that does to you is just the way it is, because I have my goals or we want to work for someone that saying I want us to achieve our goals. I want to help you as a team member, as someone who reports to me achieve your goals as well. And and so if that's what we would want in a leader of ours and we want to develop that for ourselves, that really starts in the soil of team membership, and then it grows as we become more formal leaders. Sure. Have you seen a big difference then and people who have positional leadership versus somebody who has obtained the same type of leadership, but through service, like serving? It's good, you know what I'm saying? Maybe. Maybe say a little bit more about that. So, you know, like John Maxwell has a book called Five Levels of Leadership. And one of those is positional leadership. It's like the manager who was placed as a manager because he was a decent employee, but he never had a following. So anybody with a you know, he says defines a leader as anyone with the following. Right. But some people are our leaders within their own right. You don't have to be given the title of manager or director or whatever you just been leading. A lot of us thought of who will lead within their churches, will lead within their communities. There's no title. They've just been serving and leading and they've had that servant leadership that they've been providing for a long time. Well, at the same time, though, we all know that there's been we have all seen where. Within a company or organization or team, somebody has been to people, for example, have been granted a leadership position, but one has been a servant leader and the other hasn't. Do you understand what I'm saying? Yes. What is it? And I feel the answer. But I'd like to hear your perspective on the difference of the person who granted the position of leadership versus the servant leader. Yeah, I think from my perspective, I think you hit on it, we talked about the followers, like you said, I mean , the reality is that people are likely to follow someone who they think has their best interests at heart. And if someone is I totally agree with you that positional authority is just that. It's authority. It's not necessarily doesn't mean you're leading. It means you have the authority to be in charge. Or if you're if you have a title, then you have a title. And that's that's doesn't mean you're actually leading, even if that's the title that you're title says. And likewise, if you have no one who's directly reports to you, you may have a lot of followers and you may be leading very powerfully. Leadership is more about influence than it is about title. And I think that people respond to others who they can tell have their best interests at heart, who are for them and who see them and know them and want to help them to achieve what they want achieve as well. And so I think that if someone is in a position of leadership, but they're not exhibiting certain leadership behaviors, then I think pretty quickly they're going to realize that they don't have anyone really following them except for in the ways that they must know for that for the job that they have. Whereas when someone achieves that opportunity, because they were seen as someone who could effectively engage and develop others and rally them towards a common vision and invest in them and bring them together towards a common goal and achieve that goal, then I think that there's going to be a significant difference in the sustainability of their leadership, the future growth of their leadership potential and everything else along the way, not to mention the number of leaders that they create. I mean, I think that that's what you're going to see with the servant leaders. They're going to be a factory for leaders. They're going to be growing new leaders because as they invest in people and serve them, and that's going to fuel the organization further. And so and then those leaders. So it multiplies a factory for leaders. I was there. Yes. Right along those lines, what would you say to a team or a team leader that feels like, hey, we work together well as a team where we're meeting our goals, but we we have kind of hit a wall and I can't seem to break through the glass ceiling. Hmm. Say what would you say to that leader? That's kind of discouraged that says, man, I feel like I've taken the team as far as I can take it, and I can't really take it any further. What's some advice that you can tell? Hey, you don't have to give up or throw in the towel. Here's some things that you can do to break through that glass ceiling. Yeah, and boy, we've I've felt that way for sure at times, and I think one of the I mean, the first thing that came to mind when you said that is empower someone on the team to you know, I think that sometimes as leaders, we get burdened by the responsibility that feels like I need to be the smartest person in the room. I need to be the best. I need to be the most experienced and sometimes even just the best intentions. And that might not be a selfish thing. It just could be, hey, I don't want to lose face here. I mean, I feel like I'm I'm in charge. I've been given this responsibility. Everyone's looking to me. So I need to make sure that I'm the one that gets this team need to go. But the reality is, if we have a strong team, then you've got if it's a five or six person team, you've got five or six talented individuals. And so start asking those questions to say, here's an area team where I think we're kind of stuck and we're not really achieving the results. I think we can. Who on this team feels like they've got an idea or an opportunity that they could they could push us toward who could lead in that time? I think that sometimes we even get too too rigid with those leadership and teams team rolls to say, I'm a leader, I'm a team member, I'm a follower . But those roles are changing. You know, when I think about a healthy team, we could be in a meeting and it could happen in real time. And I might be leading the meeting. And all of a sudden the topic shifts. And Lafayette is an expert on this and he's got some ideas, hey, you're off here. We don't following you at this point. Informal leadership title is no longer the key there. Or John steps up and we have a new new project forming. And we think that's we need I need to follow you right now or be a teammate with you, because that's going to get us where we need to go in the leader facilitating that and modeling that, I think is a way to really raise that that potential for results. But when you feel like you have to lead it all yourself, then yeah, I think there's we're always going to hit a wall or our ceiling at some point. Sure. I think that's really good. Is that the kind of leadership that whoever has the expertize in this area, let them take the lead instead of that takes the pressure off of one person? That's really going to happen. How do you get that environment to start? So let's take, for example, and you know, our family company, there's there's times when somebody will continually come over and say, hey, we look at this, we look at this, or what do you think about this? Or we approve this, John, or you what? Basically wanting to know the next step. And as a leader would what I really want is more people to make decisions and not worry about making mistakes. To be quite honest, I might just do it. You're not going to ruin the company, OK? We're not going under because you put a bad graphic on something that was should have been blue and you made green our logo blue. Did you know? But it doesn't matter. And so but sometimes it can really bog down a leader when some leaders want to make decisions. I'm not that guy, but because I would I really want is a pool of leaders, you know, working like a like a strong, well oiled machine just moving forward. So how do you get. And I'm curious, selfishly, to get your team to feel empowered, because sometimes I'm like, maybe it's my fault that some people don't feel like they can make those decisions or maybe it just takes more time. I don't know. Well, you're you're you're not alone in that at all. And I think that I have some thoughts there that are somewhat of a do as I say, not as I do sometimes, because my team will probably tell you that I do tend to be more of a a hands on leader than some. And sometimes that can be, I say, hands on and be generous to myself. But micromanaging can be my tendency at times. And I think that sometimes our best intentions at empowering folks can be limited by not even realizing the the the ways that we're on unknowingly communicating that we need our hands and everything. And so when someone asks for our opinion on something, my tendency is to say, oh, I would probably change this or do that or do this, even if I'm not meaning that, to say do it that way, they learn, oh, Rusty is always going to have a thing or two about this, and I better make sure I know that so that he's not, you know, thinking I'm doing it wrong because I didn't ask him as opposed to I'm trying to learn to say if something's really not that important to me, I just say no, I think it looks great. I'll go for it like it is. Even if there were two or three things, I would have changed if it were mine to do. I don't necessarily share those because I've learned over time that builds a mentality that makes sure Rusty weighs in and it doesn't actually move people towards the empowerment decision making that I want it to. And so that's that's one thing I found for myself. But I do think it begins. And this is something that you probably hear a lot in the leadership space, but it really does begin by spending more time on the goals and the expectations and less time on the house. So if we can as leaders, if we can spend more time saying this is the outcome that I'm looking for in less time and this is how I think you should do it, then over time, I think that really that space can fill in and we can we can empower people more effectively that way. Now, sometimes I think it comes down to just let their knees. Need more time. So some people are given a role, but they just don't quite feel adequate because it's still pretty new. And if we continue see, I have this problem, I just just go do it to see what it looks like. They're like I don't even know what steps to take. Right. And so there is that that part, which is the hard part for me. Like, all right, let's grind through this. But I guess what you're saying is almost like they're very good. It's probably better than I. Perfect, essentially. Well, you know, it's that's a that's a really cool way to say it, because in a sense, you're looking at a couple of different things there. You've got the specific outcome you're dealing with. So they're very good on this outcome versus my subjective assessment of my perfect. But you've also got the long term objective of empowered leaders who make decisions for themselves. So sometimes you may be saying yes to a very good one. You actually probably do have a perfect in mind. That would have been two steps better. But the end goal of them making very good decisions for the long haul without you is much more important than your two extra points on the scale here and other times what we think is perfect. So they're very good. Might actually not even be as good as or better. And so there's there's that that side of it, too. Where. But because what if they're better? What if they get to be better than you are? And that's better for you both, right? Yep. So if I don't want them to think just like mine, because then whatever my perfect is, is going to be, they're perfect. But what? They're perfect in six months. It's just killer. It's way better than mine. Yeah. Yeah. We're we tend to want to have a bunch of many me's a little bit like, well, if you did how I did it and they do how I did it and everybody does I did it, then we'd have this everything we've done the way I want it done. And that totally misses the point of the value that each person brings in, the fact that we hired people for who they are because they have skills. And sure, I might look at something and think it should be this way, but that's because I'm looking with my eyes at my perspective, my worldview, view. I've hired them for them for their perspective, and there will be their talent. And so we have to really fuel that and recognize that, yeah, they can do it probably better than we could. And and we got to let them go. I think that's good, because it almost reminds me of in sports is hard for former players to be coaches because they can't coach another player, because they're thinking it from the perspective. Why can't they do what I did? Why can't they get it? Like, you know, Michael Jordan was a great player, but he's been a terrible GM in it because he has that mindset of, you know, everybody's not Michael Jordan and so everybody can't be you. You have to be that individual that people thrive and the success they are in through their own individuality. Yes. On your website, it talks about on wind shape's experiences that make stronger teams and leaders. I love that. And the aspect of team retreats. I'm interested in that because I think that falls into building that culture. And we're huge here and unscripted about building that culture to us, about that experiences, those team retreats, and how that can empower your team even further. Yeah. Yeah. Culture is just is so important. And I mean, every team has one. So I guess, you know, everything's got a culture of some sort. But you know, what type of culture is that? And, you know, I started at shape. Eleven years ago, and I remember one of the first experiences that just really stands out to me was our first annual staff retreat, and we do it every year and we missed last year with coronavirus. So we're doing a big one this year. But that first one, we went as a team to Cumberland Island in Georgia, and we didn't know where we're going. So you showed up 20 some people on our team. They didn't tell us where we're going. So we had our bags packed in the parking lot. We got in a van and we didn't know where the van was going. And so we had to get the van to the location, which ended up being coming down. And then we paddled out to this island and we we can't there. And we sailed and we had at home on the paddle home. It was it was stormy. It was the time was hard. It was very, very hard. We had to really struggle. Some had to get in canoes with each other to help get home. And then when we got done, we we feasted we feasted at a restaurant. And it was one of those words like, hey, order, anything you want and just go for it. And I remember thinking back on that time. And realizing that we we have a community, a built in community model that when shape that we use and we say that to build a strong community, you need five components. You need a powerful purpose. There needs to be challenged to change individuals in the group. We need to have sacrificial service. We need to spend time together. And we need to celebrate and mourn together. And when I look back on that experience, I think why it was so impactful for me is because every one of those components was there. You know, we had to serve each other on that team and be served. We got to celebrate at the end. We were put in hard places where we had to be challenged to change. And so I think that those shared experiences, you come back to a workplace after something like that. And, you know, it's a whole different, different world. And every team is not able to do that type of experience. You know, that every team's context is different. But I do think that, you know, when you can take intentional time to focus on building team skills, you know, how we resolve conflict, how we give feedback and how we have meetings, whatever it may be. And then to add into that building relationships, building community, knowing and being known that those those will come together to be hugely beneficial. And both are key. I mean, if I had to choose. It's hard to say. But I think that the relational aspect of that the knowing is, is is at least as important, not more important than the skills themselves. Obviously, we have to know how to team as well. But I think the time spent investing in that group provides a lot of relational equity that can cover a lot of things in the future. Relational equity, that is that's great, that's great, that's great, because a lot of people are trying to make withdrawals from a person or group of team they haven't made any investment in. They have no equity there. That's why you can't get a withdrawal, because there's no withdrawals. Yeah, that's that that's great. John, did you have anything else? Rock. This is the one thing that came to mind was in corporate America, a lot of a lot of companies grow, a lot of it goes from companies trying to do group activities to teams within the company, trying to do group activities. I used to be a part of a big company in corporate America. And they're always trying to figure out what can we do? Obviously, a team retreat would be amazing, but. Maybe for a management group, that would be that would work often. From my perspective, is equally as important as a as a well gelled management team is the management and his team. Because often companies will spend lots of money for the management group to go off and go fishing or something like that. Great to get to see each other. They play poker at night. They have some laughs. Hopefully they do something constructive, but rarely did I see it from the management slash supervisors and their team, which is probably anywhere from 10 to 20 people and a lot of cases maybe 30. And so I would see these groups that, hey, we have funds to do something as a team. So they would like go bowling or something like that. And honestly, it just never seemed the fact that they would go bowling during a lunch hour after work, come back and then leave our team. What we had done is we decided, you know what, maybe you can speak to this is and it was kind of lucky. He said, what should we do? Maybe we can go do something for the community, the store, some ideas. And somebody had said, hey, there's this organization that we can serve and they fit. It's called Shoes for the Shoeless. And what they do is they go into schools and they fit children of need with brand new shoes. And we were like, I'm thinking I hate feet, but OK, you know, so we went and did it. You get out to get out of work for a couple of hours, whatever. That's why most people start. But what I found was if we all went and did that and we came back and at least half the department was like, hey, let's do this every month, this would be amazing. And most did for a couple of years. Every month they go serve this organization. But what it helped was there was always those people you work with and you're like, Oh, Susie. She drives me crazy. She doesn't work nearly as hard. She's always coming in late. You see here, you only see her from our work perspective. But when we went to serve you, it's like you almost saw the more human side of the person. She actually has a great heart and she's really good with the kids and so forth. Yes, she comes in late still. But you just have a new respect for her because you seen more than just her sneaking into the cubicle at eight, oh, five or eight 10. Does that make sense? And so that had worked really well for us. But there things like you would recommend, how can a small team within a company or so forth? What can they do to sort of help create that, as you called it, relational equity? Yeah, that's great. I think. And I think the way you sure about that made me think that there really are a number of different objectives or outcomes that a team might seek in a retreat or an experience. And so I think about it like you might have seen something that's more of a team bonding experience. It's kind of it's really designed to just to get some time together and build some relationships. And that's like you said, people try things like I mean, there's there's any number of options you can do for that. Anything that gets you spending time enjoying time together does help you to see people outside of at least the office workplace. But I do think it has to be part of an intentional effort overall, because, like you said, it can kind of fall flat if you go bowling once a year for an hour over lunch. You know, you're not all it's not really going to make a huge impact. So if you can have an intentional approach to say we're trying to create these touch points or just relationship building, I think that's that's good and certainly very important. But I think that beyond that, that's great. When you talk about serving on a retreat, that puts you in a whole new context and you get to see someone in a giving of themselves. That can be very important when you give yourself more time. So an hour or two doing an activity, you're only going to see so much of someone. But when you are able, if you can get for an offsite or at least a full day experience, then you can kind of start to let the walls down a little bit. What we what we do in our retreats are what we try to build into those is really a combination. I mean, obviously, you're looking for the objectives of the team, but you don't need to be. There is a time for creating space where there's real conversations. I mean, you are trying to say, you know, if we're. Team development and team relationships are very important. But the reality is that we all know that conflict is going to be present and conflict is not a bad thing. But if we don't have to manage that, then it can be very hard for us. And if I know that there's someone on our team that I'm really have an issue with, if there's no trust. But we do have to engage that. And we have to say, hey, I think the trust is low in this team and here's why. You know, here's here's why. I don't I actually don't trust this team and I don't feel safe this year at all. Or I feel like if I make a mistake in this team, I'm going to be just shut down for it and everyone's going to hate me. So I just pretty much keep myself over here and I don't try anything new. And that's how I'm approaching this. And we have to create some space for that conversation. And having a facilitator can say, hey, say more about that and you reference the mistakes. And I remember a time very vividly where a leader I was working at a ranch in Colorado and it was training, and one of the young gals who was learning to be a waitress was coming out to serve us. And they were practicing all the staff were in there eating dinner for them to serve. And she dropped the plate and it shattered on the ground. And I was thinking how mortified she must have been as a new staff member. The owner of the ranch picked up his cup and saucer off his table and he threw it in the air and it shattered on the ground. And that moment to me was this incredible example of a leader setting the tone to say, hey, mistakes are going to happen. We're not going to worry about it, OK? Be yourself. And so those types of things, you know, that you can as leaders can do. And I think within the context of a retreat, you know, when you create the environment for the conversations to happen and those things to build in that example just kind of came to my mind, even though it wasn't a retreat that's got to happen to. And so I think we have to think from a team perspective about how do we get away from the workplace, not just to build relational equity, but also to to create space, to engage around the things that will truly help us be more effective. From a skill perspective as well. Excellent, excellent source, that leader not making her feel like she's a stand alone, but jumping right in there with her, that is that's amazing. This has been an incredible, incredible conversation. We don't want our audience just to listen, to stop listening and connecting with Rusty here, but we want you to connect and follow Rusty on his various social media platforms. His LinkedIn his Facebook page is Winshape. That is Winshape teams on LinkedIn and Facebook. That's the page there. Winshape teams and the Instagram handle is Winshape Teams. You also can connect with Rustaveli, a website at www.winshapeteams.org and www.teamworkbook.com. Rusty also has a book and the documentary the book is Teamwork Thirteen Timeless Principles for Creating Success and Fulfillment as a Team Member. And the documentary is called For the Team, which is available on YouTube and also Amazon Prime. He also has the organization there, the Winshape tteams, where they offer team retreats, open enrollment, leadership experiences, coaching articles, blogs and other resources that will help enable your team and your leaders propel them to the next level. As always, we want you to continue to follow us on our YouTube channel there on the bottom of your screen, unscripted, authentic leadership podcast. You can also follow us on our various social media platforms, unscripted, authentic leadership podcast on Facebook or Instagram handles at unscripted leadership. We're also on LinkedIn and unscripted authentic leadership podcast. Those that are part of our listening audience, any podcast platform you can stream our podcast on Apple, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Radio, Pandora, Stitcher and so forth. Wherever podcasts are provided, you can find us there unscripted, authentic leadership podcast and connect with us on our website there. Unscripted, that's leadership dot com. We've got some amazing things in the works there for you. Also, we have merch available there. When you sign up for our unscripted email group club, you'll receive a 10 percent of merch promo code that's available there. Unscripted, that's leadership dot com. Again, we say thank you to our special guest, Rusty Chadwick, director at Winneshiek. Thanks for coming on to have this incredible conversation with us about about developing a team first mentality, as always, here to build bridges and not walls. Bridges connect and walls divide. Until next time. We pray that you be the leader that God has called you to be..