🔥In this episode, John and La'Fayette are joined by special guest Kaliym Islam, NY Times best selling author of The 12-Inch Rule of Leadership, owner of a boutique educational consulting firm, and an assistant professor of practice at Southern Illinois University. Kaliym unpacks why it's important to have organizational development in your organization, how you can use the agile methodology for developing and measuring the Six Sigma Way, and what kind of philosophy successful leaders should have. To hear more you'll have to hit that PLAY & DOWNLOAD button!
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Welcome to the unscripted Authentic Leadership podcast. Podcast we are seeking to lead change while also seeking to understand. We are also here as a platform for leaders to come together, to unite, to develop and empower other leaders in the areas of business, family, faith and community. I'm your host, Lafeyette Lame Duck, on my co-host, John LeBrun. Today, we are joined by our special guest, Karleen Islam. Put those hands together, put those clapping, those in the comments section. Believe has graciously joined us today to have a discussion about training the agile way. Just a little bit about our special guest. He is a New York Times bestselling author. He is the author of four books, The 12 Inch Rule of Leadership, Agile Methodology for Developing and Measuring Lead Learning, Developing and measuring, training the Six Six Sigma Way and podcasting one on one for trainers. He also runs a boutique educational consulting firm and works as an assistant professor of practice at Southern Illinois University. And today, he's here right here on the unscripted, authentic leadership podcast Gilliam. Let's get right into the conversation, man, again. Thanks for coming along, sir. We appreciate it. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm excited. Right. So thanks for having me. And let's get to it. Let's get to that. We're talking about training the agile way. You have a plethora of experience in leadership, leadership styles. But let's start with a little bit about who you are as your background. We talked about you, a New York Times best selling author. But give us give us a little bit more about your background and how you got into this area, this wide area of leadership that spans so many different areas of leadership, this expertize that you have have a passion for. Tell us a bit about yourself and how you got into leadership. Yeah, so I think if you had to sort of put sort of my career journey in a nutshell, you would say it's about innovation and taking chances. So spend a bunch of time in the military and realize that, you know what, I don't want to kill people for a living. And I decided I was going to change the world. Right. So I started actually teaching school in New York City, New City public school systems. And I worked in a very poor school district where these students just had not had success. So I, I think I got innovative and I took some chances. I did things like bringing sort of technology into the classroom. And back then, it's probably before you guys were born. Technology was a brother word processor. Right. Sure. But it worked. Right. So the studio started to started to learn. And I started bringing more and more technology in the classroom and essentially transition from from being a teacher to being an assistant principal at an alternative high school in New York City. Again, students who had not been successful. And I started using technology to help make them to improve their academic progress and had some success, won some awards from New York City School Board for the work that I was doing with students. And then my wife at the time let me know that the that the salary of a school teacher did not afford her the life that she thought she desired. Now, at the same time, it broke my mother's heart because we're so I'm a first generation immigrant from from Panama. And so what did my mother know? You know, school teachers, you know, doctors, lawyers, nurses. But, you know, when I started talking about what I did in in corporate America, she couldn't comprehend it. Right. So but I promised I would go back. So transition into corporate America, doing it, doing technology, technology stuff, and took some chances. We are doing some technology deployment and asks a dumb question. Right. So what's going to happen when you deploy this new technology over the weekend? You haven't trained you haven't taught all your employees on how to use this particular technology. So. Oh, well, you know what? We don't know that. Can you handle the volume of calls? We'll know. What do you think we should do? And I think we should. You should you should train them. You should teach them. So I literally went home that night and wrote a curriculum on how to how to train on this technology. And we did that and we had some some success there. And ultimately, I wrote myself a new job. Right. So because I was doing this sort of technology stuff and teaching stuff, I wrote myself a job, which was to be a technology training manager for for a Wall Street firm, had a bunch of success there. And they started taking some more changes. I started bringing in. What was it then at that time called CD-ROM training? Again, probably before you guys at time, you used to have to actually program the training onto onto a physical CD-ROM and then ship the city ROMs to wherever folks were so that they can do the training that was innovative at the time because it didn't exist. Right. So the only way people could get trained was actually going into a classroom. So we had success there. So they kept moving up the the career ladder and left for a larger Wall Street firm where I started doing something that was, again, innovative in sort of the taking of chances. I started bringing in eLearning, which didn't even exist at the time, but I was sort of on the bleeding edge again, has had some more success. Got some more responsibilities. And then it hit me that, you know what? This is not about the training. It's not about the technology. It's about the leadership. So if you don't have leadership that involves people, that gets information, has back and forth, conversation up, down and sideways, things don't work. So I took another chance being innovative and I brought in an approach to developing training that was different than the the typical approaches that people use. And in training, we use something called is the instructional systems design, you know, for those who no training. And I said, no, that doesn't work. It's not working their problem. So I introduced Six Sigma as a methodology to to to design and deliver training. That worked well over time, we saw that the tail started wagging the dog and Six Sigma, the the administrative burden of Six Sigma was too much. So we switched on a dime and we adopted agile methodology as an approach to developing training. And it totally, totally, totally transformed the organization in a couple of ways. One, you know, if anyone knows anything about Agile, it comes out of software development. But at the company where I work, it was a training group that introduced Agile to the company. So so again, we introduce it or I introduce it. We had a lot of success at success with it, with the learning organization. And ultimately the larger Wall Street firm adopted Agile as their approach to doing business. So, you know, taking chances and being innovative is sort of this stuff in a nutshell in terms of my career journey. Amazing. You said a few things there that you talked about innovation, but also what I heard from you was that you are a trailblazer because you said that you did things there was no template for, if I'm understanding you correctly. Yeah. Yeah. That was a big challenge. That was that was a big challenge, because when when we introduced it, a lot of the things that we were introducing was never done in the in the sphere of training in development. So we had to essentially create the template is really popular now. It's becoming more popular. But at the time that we did it, there was no model for us to build on. Sure. That sparks a question in my mind for you. What would you say to those people who are in leadership that don't have a template to follow? Just on a larger scale, that they are free to be a leader in whatever area they're in during the ERTI technology, the financial sector or whatever sector that is? What would you say to those who don't have a template to go after it? Well, I think that you should probably reconsider your role as a leader. So I think one of the things a leader has to do, they have to be willing to trail blaze. They have to they have to continually look at the vision of the organization, and they have to continually communicate that vision, communicate that that mission, and figure out ways to help the organization get there. Now, I would also say that a lot of times it's not going to come from you as a leader. You got you have to get information from wherever it exists. Best practices, research studies, other practitioners who are doing it. But if you believe in something, you need to you need to go all in. You can't be lukewarm. Yeah. So what is your leadership philosophy, you talk about training the agile way, the Six Six Sigma. What is your philosophy when it comes to leadership? So to say, I believe the best leaders are servant leaders, that those my job, I lost my job. Well, I can't say I always looked at it at some point in my career. OK. The light bulb went on. And I realize that it's my job to help people reach their dream, whatever those dreams are. So if that dream was OK, I don't want to work in your organization for the rest of my career. You know, I want to go in a different direction or I want to get your job. Then my focus every day was to help the people that work for me achieve their dreams and get to where they want to be. And once I adopted that methodology, what's not methodology, that philosophy. Believe me, my leadership skills increased tremendously, and it was borne out in terms of sort of productivity numbers. But it was leadership. Leadership scores, corporate leadership scores, employee engagement scores. They just shot through the roof because people realized that this guy is going to do what's right for us. And I want to want to tell, I think, a story that that highlights that at one time at one company I was working for. There was another individual, a very talented, bright young lady and myself that were vying to to basically head up the global learning organization. And the company had to make a decision. And she and I had we were in conflict a lot. I mean, we were vying for the same for the same job. There was a lot of conflict. And quite frankly, we really didn't like each other. Right. But it turned out that I actually won. So I became that the head of the global the global learning organization. And she was reporting to me. And but with my philosophy, I said, hey, listen, that she reports to me she's someone in my organization, my job, regardless of whether we get along or not. My job is to help her become the best that she could be. Right. So we sat down. We had a bunch of conversations, quite frank conversations that, hey, listen, I get it. This is probably uncomfortable for you. We were vying for the same position. We haven't gotten along. I said, but I promise you. OK, we are where we are. And I will do everything that I can do. To help you get where you want to be. And if it means taking my seat, that's okay, because I don't want to be here for the rest of my life either. I want to do some other things. And we started working together. And what I started doing was identifying the skill sets she had the thing that she was really good at, that I wasn't. And she was really, really good at EKU emotional intelligence. So I started taking her to meetings with me. And then we would we would we would debrief. And, you know, that helped me out a lot. Now, one of the things that she where she had an opportunity was she was very small, mon's Ivy League educated folks. And she liked letting everyone know that she was Ivy League educated and that would rub folks the wrong way. So when I was in meetings with her, any time she said or did something that, you know, from observing the room was having a negative impact. We agreed to a signal. I would I would, you know, grab my ear lobe. And that would let her know that, hey, Colleen is observing that other people are having a negative reaction to by, you know, to how I'm presenting myself. So a few things happened, one, I was taking her to meetings, so she was getting. She was having interactions and getting face time with people who she normally wouldn't. The folks who were the decision makers in the organization were going to if she was going to be promoted, would have to sign off on it one. Number two, we were working on a weakness for her. And number three, I was getting a lot out of it because she was better at IQ than I was. So she was coaching me. And I was I was coaching her so fast for this woman who we would basically fight with every day, a couple of years later after after working for me. We were doing a reorg, a pretty dramatic reorg. And she was on maternity leave. And her her teens were very, very loyal to her. And she understood that. So she calls me up and she says, Kaleen, I know you're going to announce the reorg tomorrow. My team is very loyal to me. But I want them to know that I'm 100 percent behind what you're doing. So would you mind if I came into the meeting so they can see me? They're sitting next to you saying that I'm on board with it and that you know, that you know that relationship, you know, from one that was adversarial to one where she was probably my most loyal and trusted lieutenant, is something that is one of the most proudest moments of my leadership career. So it goes back to being a servant leader. If you have the mentality that I want to serve people, I want to help people to treat achieve their dreams . You know, it's amazing what will happen, how that transitions organizations, how to transition individuals. You said a whole lot that that is amazing. Yeah. Out of everything that you said was amazing, everything that you said. But I think the take for me was you were more focused on completion than competition. And you said that you understood that even though you got the position, there were still some areas of weakness that you had that you saw in her, that she could be a completion to help you complete the job and the task as a leader holistically then competing with her. And I think that a lot of leaders that are in positions of leadership, if we have that mentality, that style of always trying to compete against someone else or see them as a threat, that what do they have in them that I can take to strengthen myself and to serve them. That was just amazing. Amazing. So thank you. So let me share an opposite story. I, I do a bunch of consulting and I consult a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of small business owners, you know, on leadership things, you know, on strategy. And I was working with one organization, and the individual was what his company was going into another direction, opening, going into another line of business. So I talked to the CEO. I said, you know, you might want to revisit your vision and mission being that you're going into a different line of business. It was good five, six, eight years ago. But based on what you're doing now, you probably need to revisit it to see if if it's still relevant. So he agreed to that. I said know. And you probably want to get some input from the people who work for you into that mission and vision. And I'll never forget this. It was it was a jaw dropping moment. He said, well, f them. I'm the head of this company is my company. I set the mission and vision. They just work here. I just shook my head, I said, well, OK, and then the next day I find that wine. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. So I know we're kind of if we go, we still take a step back towards the agile training. Sure. Training the agile way. Mm hmm. What? I'm trying to wrap my head a little bit around it. What can you use it? Can you walk us through? Why a company would implement, I guess, quote, agile training. And what what would it. What does this do or how dumb some misstep this back? Why would it why would a company. Implement agile training or training the agile way. And how do they go about implementing sort of an agile training program? Can you can you kind of walk me through that? She does this, so there's a lot to unpack there. So one of the things you look at all the industry magazines, whether it's the ated with his chief legal officer magazine, whether it's training, training industry with dukkha with him and the great folks over there, all the data, all the studies, all the research says that the business executives that ultimately write the checks to pay for the training, you know, most of them are unhappy with the results that they're getting. They don't feel like they're getting a return on investment for the for the training programs that they're investing in. And some of the things that I kept hearing over and over again is taking too long. There's too much there's too much rework is not solving the business problems that that were we're facing. So what Agile does is agile allows you to get closer, allows training folks to get closer to the business. Number one, it allows more more input from the needs of the of the business. It allows us to stop on a dime and make adjustments. So one example is this. And, you know, you guys may have had this experience. The typical typical training program works like this. You spend a bunch of time upfront getting the design specifications, the business requirements. Right. And then you go through another gate. Once you get the sign off there, you may then design a solution. And that takes time and you sign off on the design and then you develop the training, the training program. You got to get Sinal there, and then you implement the the training program and you get some of there. And what we found was a lot of times after the business requirements were were determined and were signed off on. But between the time you signed off on the business requirements and you actually developed the training, you would find out that the business requirements changed. Right. And that's because there was no iteration. There was no back and forth communication during the design and development process that allowed you to, one, know that the requirements had changed. And and as a result, positioned you to make adjustments based on that. Right. So it was almost sort of, you know, throwing stuff over the wall and hoping the person on the other side can catch it and understand what they wanted to do. So that's why there was a need for a different approach from what was currently being used in structured system design or I had to do. So that's the first piece about the why now the how to do it. I think it's a lot easier now because there's templates out there. There's a bunch of folks that are doing it. But what we did was, one, we committed to it and we went in 100 percent. So we weren't going to do sort of half agile, half waterfall in terms of what the development process. We went all in agile and we trained the entire organization on the agile development process. And then we had to ensure that the leadership that we were providing, the type of leadership that we were providing, supported the agile approach. OK, so essentially what you're saying is the programs are customized to the client and created and such that you can adapt and change. I don't know if it's exactly current, but quickly to the needs as the organization changes and grows with that sort of with the sort of caps I capitalize with an agile program would look like versus purchasing a program from a company. It's probably a template drops in. And then that, you know, that's the program we're using this year, whether whether it fits or not. Is that kind of what you're saying? Pretty much. Pretty much what agile is not sort of tethered. Mm hmm. OK. To any particular approach. So you may do let's say, for example, I'm running a training organization and we're building a training program for four companies. Mm hmm. Right. We may use one method, one approach. To doing the training for that particular company now, we may do a very similar training program for a different company. But because of the culture of that particular company, because of how things are done there, we might build the same program, but build it differently, use a different approach to doing it because the approach aligns with that particular company. So it's really understand, understanding that I say iterating. So one of the things that happens in Agile is this you get rid of a bunch of meetings that you don't need to have. Number one, you have clear focus on what's supposed to happen, all the meetings that the meetings that you do have. So you have what's called sprint planning, and that's where you have a conversation backload plan. And so when you have a conversation with the business to understand what's everything you need for us to do right. And then you get agreement on a certain amount of time. OK, listen, this call the sprint. OK. Every two weeks in the case, when we implemented it every two weeks, we're going to give you something. We're going to give you a deliverable, some training nugget that you can send out to your clients or delivered to your to your employees. And then you spend those two weeks working on it. Then you come back and say, OK, listen, we had this whole backlog, this whole long list of things. We gave you the stuff for the first two weeks. OK, have your priorities changed? Are these still the most important things that you need us to do? And then again, you want to know the number one priority for the next two weeks. You give them that and you go back in. So a few things happen. One is you're always working on the on the on the Adamus, the highest priority for the business that you're supporting, number one. Number two, you're having these meetings every two weeks. So if the approaches have changed, if their requirements have changed, you're able to make the adjustments in terms of how you're how you're developing and delivering the training programs. And I've got to tell you, I could sort of share with you some of the the the changes in the leadership scores and employee engagement scores that we had as a result of using that approach. OK. Is this strictly towards leadership or is towards like, for example, when you say things that could change quickly? First thing comes to mind is information security as companies implement those. I do this a lot. I implement secure information security training programs. The challenge is you want to set up sort of a an idea of what would be covered in an annual and sort of annual timeline, maybe once a month, whatever you agree on. But it's you know, you have to be able to adjust that, let's say, in six months. The new threat happens to be a lot different than in, you know, what you assumed it would be six months ago. Is that kind of what you're what you're very good example. That's that's a very good examples. So you talk about information, security stuff, right. You don't know what threats are going to come up or where those threats are going to come from. So if you're doing training currently, you can only do training on what on what you know. Right. So I think how agile would would come into play, let's say, for example, the highest security threat at the time that you agree to start developing and delivering the training is is once one type of, you know, excuse me, I forget what you are what you call, you know, one type of attack. OK. Ransomware, OK, because we had this sort of ransomware attack that that's coming. And that's the main that's the main issue. Yes. Right now, you're halfway through the training through building the training or developing the training for this particular company and suddenly on a dime. But it's no longer ransomware. It's a phishing attack or some other group was a group for some. Something else that would brute force what you think is some. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we're halfway through developing the training and we were going to do training based on ransomware, but something has changed. Ransomware is no longer the number one threat right now. The historic way of developing the training is like we still got to go ahead and complete this and build this build this training out. Agile would say, OK, no, we got it. Things have changed. Let's go ahead and put the ransomware trading sort of on the shelf and hold up. We got to get something out on phishing or sort of brute force attacks, whatever the other you know, the number one priority is. So is what you're doing with that when you call I mean, when you say call Agile, I'm assuming that to me the word and definition of agile would be like something that can be adjusted , changed as needed. Right. To basically give a better and better impact better. Yeah, I guess impact we I would say on the organization for what they need, which is great. So is this is this an uncommon thing then? Is this something that you do that it's just doesn't seem to be that common in the industry? It seems to me it was becoming this is becoming more common now. But when we first did it, it didn't exist. Yeah. Basically, once the requirements were signed off on your building to those design specifications, regardless of what happens. Mm hmm. Right. So what Agile does is it gives you more points where you're able to go ahead and say, whoa, this doesn't make sense anymore because we got some new information and we need to change. We can't keep throwing bad money after good. Hmm. God, I love him, so capitalizing on your great bro. You're you wrote a book called The 12 Inch Rule of Leadership. Very interesting title. I want to know the concept. Why that name? What does it mean? Yeah. Yeah. So, OK. So I got to say, first of all, I didn't start out to write a book called The 12 Inch Rule Leadership. All right. You know, I do teach. I got sort of one foot in academia and one foot in consulting. So I was looking to to shore up my academic chops, so to speak. So. And I'm also a member of a historically black fraternity, Phi Beta Sigma. And I joined the organization Daunia 40 years ago. And one of the things that we had to learn to join the organization was something called the 12 inch rule and a 12 inch rule or 12 principles time value based performance of duty, perseverance, the work of example, the virtual patients, toweled expression, economic wisdom, the value of character , conly attitudes, pleasuring work, the worth of organization, and a dignity of simplicity. I learned that 40 years ago. I can't tell you what I have for breakfast this morning, but I remember that. And that was the truth. And so over my 40 years as a member of this organization, I started to observe something that the folks in the organization who are trained like me in the 12 inch rule fell into two camps. Those that like me could spout off without even thinking. And those that would say, hey, that was a long time ago. I don't remember it. And what I started to observe was that those individuals who could remember their career trajectories seemed to be very, very steep. And the ones that didn't remember it or said that was you know, that was a long time ago. Not that all of them didn't have successful careers, but their trajectory wasn't as the. So my plan was to understand this and write an article, get it published, get it peer reviewed and published in the academic journal to understand to see what you know, whether my observation was was correct. It's called the phenomenological qualitative study. So I got a bunch of folks to go ahead to interview so I can do this qualitative study. And by the time I got to the third interview, I said, oh, my God, oh, my God. The stories that these individuals are telling, the tips that they're giving in their experiences and how they've used the 12 inch rule to propel their careers is phenomenal. And if I just published this in academic journal, only eight kids like me are going to read it can't. So it can't be an academic article. It's got to be something that could be written in plain language. We have to share these. We have to share these techniques to a broader audience so that people can can get value from it. So we were agile. We shifted on a dime and turned from doing an academic study to doing a book to help people become better in their leadership careers. And we have individuals we have individuals in academia from higher ed presidents of colleges. We have the K through 12 superintendents, K through 12 principals. We have folks in manufacturing, financial services, in the ministry. So it goes across a bunch of different industries. But the thing they have in common was that these guys all use a 12 inch rule. So that's what that book does. And I'm very proud of it. I got a 21 year old who throughout his academic career, I've tried to get him to read and weep. My wife and I, we tried to bribe. It will pay to read. Well, we would really think that when he picked up this book and he said, wow, dad, this is good. And he actually read the book and he gave it to his friends and his friends. His friends started reading the book. And I said, OK, now there's really something here. So young folks, I've got people who I got a good friend of mine, he's on the Dr. David McLean. We went to junior high school together and he's on the board of trustees at the new school in in Manhattan. And this is somebody who, you know, I'm never smart enough for him. He's always smarter than me. He's always he's always more of me. And I'm pretty stupid. And he read the book. He said, wow, this is pretty good. Smarter than that. Yeah. I am so excited and so proud with with the product that we put out there. Good for you. What would you say to those that say, OK, that the claim I heard I heard everything you just said. We are we've seen a thousand different leadership books. Everybody's a leader. Everybody's writing a book. Everybody's writing a manual. Everybody's writing some type of manuscript on leadership. What is different from the book that you wrote on leadership from the other of thousands, if not tens of thousands of leadership books that are already out there? Yes. So I would say a lot of the leadership books that that that I've read and I've you know, I've read a bunch of ones. So, you know, you know, whether it's a Colin Powell, whether it's a Bill Russell, you know, a Pat Riley, a gym, a lot of these guys say, OK, listen, I did this, it worked for me. So you should do it. So this is not me saying, hey, I did this and I was successful, so you should just do what I do. Right. No one. No, no, no. To the 12 inch rule was not something to say, hey, use this for leadership. You know, it's an approach to life. It's an approach to practice. And you have all these folks who were trained in over 40 years ago and they weren't told, hey, use this for leadership. But they were trained in this approach, this view of life and what you what you should do. And they've been successful. So I would say that's you know, that's probably the primary difference. Right. And it's a values based approach. So we we interviewed all these folks and we said, OK, listen, do you use a 12 inch rule every day? Everybody said, yeah, but they said, OK, we don't use every principal every day, but every day of my life, I use I use at least one of them. And so I would say that's a difference based approach that's so powerful. Yes, it is. Absolutely is. A lot of us are. A lot of kids have just went back to school. Many of those kids attend academies. And you yourself have a training pro academy. What is that? What is the training pro academy? Yeah. So first let me tell by what I believe. Right. So I believe that education is the great equalizer. I was actually listening to one of your your your podcasts and your guest talked about how, you know, I think she, with her husband, divorced her at a certain age. And she was, you know, in a bad situation. She she had to figure things out. And I said, wow, this is this is this is kind of cool. You know, one time in my life I was you know, I was homeless, my family was homeless. My my my father literally beat my mother up in front of us and kicked us out of a house that she bought, you know, so we'd be at one relative's house and it was myself and four brothers and sisters, night at one relative's house in another relative's houses. There's not a lot of people that can take in a woman and four kids for a long period of time. So that, you know, that was our our our experience. And but I always saw education as as a as a as a ladder up to your next station in life. So I believe education is the great equalizer. And I also believe that the right and learning solutions can transform individuals, organizations and and societies. So what we do with the training training academy, we help with this transformation by providing learning solutions that help individuals communicate their value, but more importantly, reach their potential. I love it. I love it, John, as you have any more questions for Kelly. Yeah, so easy. He says just said the teaches people how to communicate their value. Like, can you talk about that? That's I'm really interested in that and how you teach somebody to communicate. I'm not saying you don't. I think it's interesting and I would love to hear more about it. Yeah. So so let me let me give an example specifically from the world of training and development when I work with folks who come from my background, sort of the world. One of the challenges that training them and development professionals have is really communicating the impact that the training programs they bring have on the organization. So let's take a look at them. You gave the example of of cybersecurity training, and we pretty much know we've got to do. Right. Yeah. OK. But how can you quantify the impact that you've had? Because people are taking those trends. Mm hmm. Right. You have the number of attacks going down or have you been able to to catch, you know, a particular number of attacks or attacks which then prevented bad things from happening to the company and thus saved X amount of dollars? OK. So we help folks figure out, OK, you know, what's the value proposition for the learning organization that that I'm running and thus, by extension, as a leader of that learning organization. What value of my bringing to the organization? OK. And you're taking your program into the school system, is that what I understood properly? Now, this this program is essentially for emerging leaders. So it's anyone who was in a leadership position who says, hey, listen, I don't think that I'm sort of getting the attention I deserve. I don't think that I'm getting paid what I think I should get paid, because I think I'm bringing more to the organization than I'm getting paid for or, you know, I want to get better in this particular in this particular area. So we help them with that. We provide coaching, we provide keynotes, we do what we do workshops, we have self-paced e-learning courses, and we have a bunch of books. So, you know, if you go to my site, the training pro CARICOM, you go to the resources section, there's a bunch of stuff that folks can just go download and, you know, and use to help them in their in their careers for free, for free. You know, I know we do have some some some paid programs. So if you want to go ahead and take some of the self-paced online classes or if you want, you know, one of our associates to come in, you know, do Akinola do a workshop that's available also? Clean. Give us give our audience the last word or let me use the title of your book, if you were to leave us one last inch of advice, you give us that last minutes. So I would say something that I've been looking at for a while, and I haven't memorized this poem, but it comes from Muhammad Ali. And he says something was just clicked with me years ago. He said, impossible is nothing. Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who would rather live in the world than they been given than do what it takes to change that world. So I would say that this is what I would leave your audiences with, that that impossible is nothing. And that. It's not a I think they have an idea. I don't remember everything in the poem, but it's not a pet. It postles not a fact. OK, it's an opinion, OK? Impossible is a dare, impossible is nothing. So whatever you have in life, you know, as as a leader, if you want to achieve it, you've got to take up the mantle and do it. And don't say, look, don't let anyone tell you it can't be done. It can be done because impossible is nothing. Connect with Colleen at the Training Pro Academy dot com. You also can connect with him on his LinkedIn profile, Kaleem, Islam, K.L. I m claim Islam, ISIL Ayim. You also can connect with them on Facebook, Kaleem, Islam and also his Twitter handle is at Dr Underscore Kaleem D-R underscore K.L. , Iwai AM and also Purchas Cullum's book on Amazon. The 12 inch rule of Leadership Proven Strategies for Career Success, where I'm sure you also can find his other three books that he has written as well. Continue to stay connected here on the unscripted Authentic Leadership podcast. You can do that several ways by our Facebook page. Our Twitter handle at unscripted LEEP Instagram at Unscripted Leadership. You can also find us on LinkedIn unscripted authentic leadership podcast. 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Leadership dot com. Again, we say thank you for our special guest today. Karleen Islam had this incredible conversation that was about training in the agile way. As always, we pray that you be the leader that has proven to be your heel, to build bridges and roads, bridges connect, you know, divide until next time. God bless you.