The Murder Police Podcast
The Murder Police Podcast
True Crime and Consequences: The book | Part 2 of 2
David delves into the complex relationship between true crime enthusiasts and law enforcement, revealing how these two passionate communities can collaborate effectively to solve cases and support victims' families.
The conversation explores the dangerous "landmines" amateur investigators must navigate - from constitutional issues to potential criminal charges. When true crime enthusiasts enter someone's property without permission or record conversations in two-party consent states, they risk not only compromising cases but facing legal jeopardy themselves. David shares wisdom gathered from decades in law enforcement, providing a crucial framework for ethical investigation.
What makes this discussion particularly valuable is its dual perspective. While acknowledging the incredible resource true crime communities offer - primarily time and fresh viewpoints that overworked detectives desperately need - the conversation doesn't shy away from addressing problematic behaviors like vigilante "pedo catchers" who may actually make predators harder to catch. The podcast introduces a powerful concept: that silence from investigators doesn't mean inaction, but rather careful, methodical work happening behind the scenes.
Most poignantly, David introduces the term "survivors" - the families and friends left behind after murders or disappearances - revealing how his book has already helped some navigate their frustration and grief by understanding investigation processes. This bridges the empathy gap between those who view cases as professional challenges and those who experience them as life-shattering events.
Ready to become a more effective advocate for justice? Join the movement to create productive partnerships between true crime communities and law enforcement. Check murderpolicepodcast.com for upcoming tour dates, or reach out if you'd like David to visit your local bookstore or true crime club to continue this crucial conversation.
David's book, True Crime and Consequences is FINALLY available!
This book explores the intricate and often controversial relationship between the true crime community and law enforcement. For amateur sleuths, true crime fans, and social media detectives and cops everywhere.
http://truecrimeconsequences.com/
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FBQ4BT5Q
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good things and the bad things that will bring these communities together to ultimately help families and victims. That's what this is all about.
David Lyons:Yeah, that's what the true crime community is. I mean at its heart, this beautiful thing called the true crime community, the true crimers, like you said, I call them in a book. Beautiful people. Yeah, Beautiful people.
Scott Harvey:Warning the podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.
David Lyons:We don't want to break those rules.
Scott Harvey:And appropriately so. We, as a functioning society, we need those rules. Yes, like you can say what you want about defense attorneys, I like the job a defense attorney does. Yes, because if I ever need one, if I'm accused rightly or falsely accused like I want somebody who's going to make sure I get a fair trial Right and that's their job. That's it. Their job is not to get me off Right, their job is to make sure I get a fair trial and you can see them as the adversary or you could see them as an important checks and balances on our system. That's it. To make sure we're dotting all of our I's and crossing all of our T's. I told every recruit I ever trained if you tell the truth in your paperwork, you tell the truth on the stand, like you're just talking about what you wrote down in the paperwork. And if you are a truth teller by nature, court testimony will never cause you a problem.
David Lyons:There we go, and that's what it comes down to is that this whole thing, by both sides, is a search for the truth, and that's why I'd recommend the book to people too is to understand that it's an antagonistic system by design, and that's what makes it so beautiful compared to systems that don't exist like this in other places in the world.
Scott Harvey:It's a flawed system, but it's the best one in the world, amen.
David Lyons:Yeah, it's flawed because it's made up of human beings. That's true.
Scott Harvey:That's true.
David Lyons:If you want anything good, just add people too. It's a bad ingredient.
Scott Harvey:And you mentioned the landmines chapter and I think it's interesting from a law enforcement perspective. Even though we're aware of the landmines, just because you're in a landmine field and they're marked, it's still scary to be walking around landmines. We're aware of where they are and we occasionally still step on them. What's one of the biggest ones that you see, true crimers and or law enforcement when it comes to an investigation? What's one of the biggest landmines that you think? If there's one problem we want to prevent with this book, what would you say that is?
David Lyons:I think the and overall, if I looked at the minefield, the biggest thing when I enter the minefield is the oversharing of information. Yeah, and that's hard to pinpoint because there's so many ways that can happen Once I get into the minefield, I think for all of us is any of the constitutional issues. They can be very vague. We know what. The Fourth Amendment is Right, but I talk in a book about. Judge Harold Rothwax wrote a very good book he has since passed, called Guilty to Collapse of Criminal Justice and I've mentioned him on the podcast before. And the complexity of the Fourth Amendment is not cut and dried. It is in principle.
David Lyons:But he made a remark, I think, in his book that you could take three Supreme Court justices and put them in a backseat of a patrol car and a cop could pull somebody over and have a certain set of facts and he said the justices may not be able to tell that cop what to do in that moment. That doesn't mean it's a lost cause. It speaks exactly to what you just said. This stuff is not easy, even when you're trained in it. There can be little inadvertent missteps when you have no knowledge of it all, for example. I caution people about. You said it best. They can observe and see things, have conversations that we would require paperwork and affidavits and sworn media for the thing is is that while you can do that, you can illegally be on somebody's property.
David Lyons:While you can do that, you can illegally be on somebody's property. While you can do that, you can illegally take things from their property. So this thing that you feel like you're doing right could be a burglary or a theft In some places. Kentucky's a one-party state. When we get a statement from somebody in some places, you can probably get on the phone and talk to them and record it. In other places you'll be in trouble, right. And so you and I worked under the sword of Damocles, for you and me was fruit of the poison's tree. Yeah, a misstep in the beginning, yep, kills everything down there, yep, and it's not that solid for somebody in the community. But the same principles would apply, and I talk in a book about how we could lose things at the suppression hearing because of that. But the biggest thing is being careful not to be criminally charged yourself. Yeah, there we go is to be very careful how we step on that stuff.
Scott Harvey:Yeah, and I think you know you mentioned the legal aspects and I can only talk Kentucky law, but it's general across the country that if I'm a true crimer and I'm investigating which is a gray area and that's a dangerous area if I'm at a crime scene, I'm at somebody's house, that I'm talking to them about this case, that can get squirrely pretty quickly. But if I'm there with the intention of recovering a piece of evidence or taking something to your point, remaining unlawfully in a residence with the intent to commit a crime is burglary.
David Lyons:Yes, most often a felony, correct, most often a felony.
Scott Harvey:Even if I don't plan, even if I don't do it, just remaining unlawfully with the intent to commit a crime, Right, and because I went in there with that intention, if I see something I'm going to take it. That's a guilty mindset, and so I think this book can clear up some of those things. If I'm just going to go in there and ask questions, I don't have any intent except to quell my curiosity. For example, there's no crime there. Yeah, that's different. But if I'm actively looking for evidence to take with me or things like that, or I'm going to assault this person who I think caused this crime, which is an extreme case, but those people exist.
Scott Harvey:That's happening Like that's illegal to be there for that purpose. That's exactly. That's a whole nother thing. The average public doesn't know that. Right, once again, good intentions that could get you criminally charged because you're trying to help a case that you don't know enough about to help Right.
David Lyons:When you talk about those. There's a whole genre out there of pedo catchers. Yeah, they rope people in, they bait people in and a lot of times they physically assault them. Right Again, here's the thing If you play that game and you get your pedo and you call the police, be ready. I mean because you did not do that, even though you felt virtuous about it, is that there's a whole big wall. I tell people all the time that at a minimum, you might've just educated a pedo, because the likelihood of you engaging in criminal prosecution based on your work is very it's like next to zero. Make them smarter. Here we go.
Scott Harvey:Make them smarter and it did bother me in law enforcement Like I had to tell people all the time as a dad of daughters and stuff. I had to tell them it's not illegal to be creepy.
David Lyons:There we go.
Scott Harvey:Because they'd say well, somebody was at the pool and I saw him taking a picture of my kid. That's not illegal, it's creepy as crap, right.
David Lyons:If creepy was illegal, we'd all be in trouble.
Scott Harvey:However, you know, we have to educate people. Just because somebody is being creepy doesn't mean you can come and assault them because they've not committed a crime. There we go and you're not defending anybody. And so those type of things, those conversations that I think this book will start. You said it's a conversation starter. Sure, it will make both sides of this equation smarter. And then the big winner at the end is the families of the victims.
David Lyons:The people that matter, right, the people that matter. Speaking of those, I will share this that one of the surprises I got is that you know I did a pre-review process, like we, that I learned you do with books and you were very gracious in helping me with that. Where there are people that I reached out to that looked at my manuscript, and they do it for two reasons. One is another technical review, which is super grateful that we're a couple people that really helped on a technical review part. But the other one is is it readable? Is it? Do I? Am I delusional in the idea that I think I've got a message to say? And can I stitch sentences together? One of the?
David Lyons:I did send the manuscript to some people that we've worked with before that are going through the nightmare. I call them survivors in the book, and in the book people will read that. To me, a survivor is the close, intimate people family and friends that are left behind when somebody disappears or they've been murdered. Yeah, murdered. I never would have thought to write the book with that as a target, because there's a part of me that thinks, like you would write a guide to somebody who just had a loved one murdered, I mean that's a weird feeling.
David Lyons:But I did have some of them come back and it was really flattering to me, very humbling, that one of them said I wish I knew this 10 years ago when my brother went missing, and what that spoke to me was is that I think I pulled the curtain back a little bit because these people stay in a state of frustration. There's another survivor that I've worked with that I think the book polished off. But when I met him the frustration level with the police is high because they don't see things Right. But he did tell me before we recorded. He said you know, I've been listening to the episodes and he goes I think I get it. So the book helps people get it Right. That silence doesn't mean nothing's happening. Yep, the reality of it. As you said, at best I've got cases that we did not lay down when I was in the unit from a long time ago, that I feel super strongly about who's responsible. But in the United States you do not do that until it's time.
Scott Harvey:You do everybody a disservice. If you rush it, that's it, because you really get one chance. That's it, yeah.
David Lyons:And Lord forbid, we don't need to indict anybody, formally or informally, for something they didn't do either. Correct. That's just not how we work in this country. So it was kind of to me it was flattering and humbling from a victim standpoint that maybe that I did have a track on that and I think I do. Yeah, I think I do.
Scott Harvey:And I think what the Murder Police Podcast does and what True Crime and Consequences does is kind of, like you said, pulls that curtain back a little bit because we forget in law enforcement. This is a case. It's a case we take seriously, but it's a case of a dozen others that we have that all need our touches almost every day, and so there is a time where I do have to set this case aside to work on these others. When I do that, the family attached to this case that's their whole world. I just put their whole world on the back burner while I dealt with these other 11 people's whole world.
David Lyons:That's it.
Scott Harvey:And that's the hard perspective shift, I think, for the victims, especially Right, and for law enforcement. But you and I both know there's times where you put all the cases down and you're just out for a drive in the country and all of a sudden the case occurs to you and a thought occurs to you. Out of nowhere, that's it. And now that case is back in your head rolling around and you don't log that time as I'm working this case, but it's rolling around in your head Right.
David Lyons:I would have to say back even in my career that if me and the people I worked with, quote unquote, solved a case or laid one down, I'll bet most of the time we were not on a clock when that triggered. Oh for sure. And that again talks about the value of the true crime community. Yeah, there, we've got tons of people with time and imagination. I keep using the two words time and imagination. They just need a rule book, they just need to know that. Hey, maybe I should slow down here. And again, the goal is can we get those dialogues between those two people solid enough to where there's enough trust, right and enough? I say pretty clearly in the book that because of the time constraint, there's nobody that has time to meet for coffee and just theorize. Sure, that's unfortunate.
David Lyons:But the minute that your theory starts to produce something that's actionable or has legs, as we'd say, I want to know that Guessing is one thing, which guessing is what we do in a true crime community. That's the beauty. I love the conversations that happen on social media where everybody's throwing things out and in Every now and then I'll weigh in with. Well, let me tell you how that really works, which I think is the thing you and I can do, that we can help educate people. But when it comes to that limited time, unfortunately we just don't have time to theorize with people.
David Lyons:But there's a big difference between a guess or a theory and something that has a fabric of something that could be attainable. You know that might pull that sweater loose and that's what we want, but it's going to take cops opening your minds to be reachable. To be approachable maybe make it part of the prioritization of your day. Is that I'm going to anchor out so many times a week? And again on the other side is for the people who make that approach. Who are you? Because if you want to do this, because you want clicks, I'm not going to sit down with you.
David Lyons:This is an unfortunate thing too. If your bias load is just anti-police, right, and that's out there. I accept that for what it is. You and I dealt with it our whole career. I don't even say bad about that, right. But if you take all this from a bias of that, then probably we're not going to sit down with it. Right, because you're not really bringing anything to the table. But if you're really truly virtuous, right, because you're not really bringing anything to the table, but if you're really truly virtuous, yeah, and there's a part to you that this person and their family, what they're going through, means something to you, yeah, then let's rock. Yeah, let's go.
Scott Harvey:Yeah, and I think for the true crime, or the understanding of you, do have 12 other cases. Yes, this case, for whatever reason, strikes a chord with me. So I'm really just kind of exclusively working on this case right now. As a true crimer, I can give it time, you can't Amen and I'm going to share whatever I discover with you. I think that if it's approached that way, it's not, you're not doing your job. Right From a true crime standpoint to the detective, it's. I know you're busy, I have time. Some of these true crimers are retired people or they have a little bit of money. They're not necessarily needing a full-time job. This is a hobby, this is a passion, and so why not harness that person's time and passion? Like you said, to say I'm happy to see whatever you've got. It takes five minutes of my time to validate them.
David Lyons:Or start an email chain.
Scott Harvey:Yeah.
David Lyons:Or pick up the phone, and I'll say this with great confidence is that when I did this it was several years ago. Right, we joke all the time about the modern advances that we didn't have. I will say this that had this genre been as prevalent and available as it is today, the whole true crime community for me as an investigator would have been a channel that I would have tuned into and hopefully because we've had a lot of technical advances, but nothing stops just gumshoeing and hard work as an investigator I would have embraced this world Because again, I talk in a book about people would come to headquarters and say that thing and most of them weren't like working the case per se. But now take that. They stumbled across it. They had different motivations sometimes, but now take somebody with a good heart, which I think most true crimers are, and let's get this stuff together.
Scott Harvey:And you and I are old enough David we're almost dinosaurs that when we did this back in the day, you had to go and knock doors.
David Lyons:Yes.
Scott Harvey:You had to go and find the lady who sits in the front window, the proverbial lady. I say that jokingly because my office is in the front of my house. Now I see everything that happens in front of my house through the course of the day. None of it registers until somebody comes and says hey, did you see a truck drive up here yesterday morning? Loud truck, white. I did see that truck About what time was. That Means nothing to me, but I noticed it. How easy would it be today to not knock doors, just have like a Google Dropbox where somebody can say you can say, hey, there was a truck that drove in this neighborhood. If you got any ring camera footage of it we'd love to see it, and then they can just throw it in a Google Dropbox. There we go.
David Lyons:We're advancing at light speed. Yeah, going back to the point you made. The missing link in that is the attitude of the people as to whether they can receive it or not and I'm not painting all police investigators with a broad brush, but I saw it enough and you continue to see it and the idea that let's not hold these people at a distance, let's make an invitation, let's make that accessible. Is that in any process? If people do stumble in with the, the things we're not crazy about, right, let's educate them. Yeah, take that as an education. I mean, there's nothing wrong with just helping people learn. Yep, and you know like it's again, you and I would cultivate an information source and we would do that. I even caution people in a book. I talk about confidential informants Right Before they get too carried away. I'm like I don't want you to be a CI. Yes, because that's a whole different world. It is.
Scott Harvey:And you're a CI, probably because you're walking in a world that I want my readers to be, and that would come from law enforcement, and I think that's the challenge for the law enforcement readers of this book is to say I can use this information these people provide without making them my agents. That's it. I'm not assigning them tasks, they're giving me stuff. That's it. In the moment you tell them, hey, I need you to go out and take a look at this stuff and interview this person for me, they become your agent and that's a whole nother.
David Lyons:That's it. Now we're into the lame minds, Correct. There's a part of the book. I even tell people that if you start working with an investigator law enforcement, investigator, to your point and they task you with things like that, that's a huge red flag, that's a no-no. Is that? I can't? Hey, why don't you go over to that house and knock on that door and go in and look around and if they're in a bathroom, can you go through their drawers or their closets Altogether different.
David Lyons:I even tell people that the likelihood of that happening is low, but if it happens, I want you to know about it.
Scott Harvey:And I would just suggest from a practical standpoint, from a communication standpoint, that that true crime. Or push back at that point and say does this make me your agent?
David Lyons:There we go.
Scott Harvey:Because maybe that investigator just got excited and then might say you know what? That's a good point? There we go. It probably would. So let's not do that, because sometimes we do get excited when we feel like there's progress being made on the case and that kind of stuff. And we do that in talking to other detectives and we're like I'm going to do this and they're like are you think that's a great idea? Probably not, but it sounded good when I said it and there's the purpose of the book.
Scott Harvey:Again, that would go unknown, that would go unknown, and you can respectfully push back and ask a question. Sure, would that make me your agent?
David Lyons:Yeah, and then we both get better right, correct, if that happens. But you've got to there again. That's why I wrote the book. It's not legal advice, but it's 36,000 feet in the view, but that's why I wrote the book. It's like, hey, here's the things, and at that point maybe we do get better together about that and make that remark or whatever. Because if you walk into that unarmed with that information, do you know what that feels like?
Scott Harvey:Yeah.
David Lyons:I just got sworn. Yeah, there's a thing that can now if the investigator is nefarious with that, which is still I'm going to call that an outlier, but all things are possible that feels very flattering.
David Lyons:Now I'm being tasked right Well we don't even do that with CIs. There's controlled things we do with CIs, but those are all under the constitutional and the amendment guidelines that the landsmines we do. So good point Again back to. That's why I wrote the book. Let's get armed on this stuff. Let me show you, and if nothing else you're less frustrated, I'll tell people all the time you might be the smartest cat in the true crime club. Yeah.
Scott Harvey:But at least you can't say you didn't know. That's the big thing, like, sometimes we make mistakes out of ignorance. A lot of times we make mistakes out of ignorance and this will minimize some of those mistakes and actually draw attention to the malicious things that you're doing, because now you know, now you've learned a better way, so you write this book. It took a long time to get it out because it's first book and there's a lot of things in the way of that first book coming to fruition. But now it's out, it's live, it's. We're talking about it on the Murder Police podcast. What's next steps now? I mean, now we have to sell this book. Let's be honest with you, and that's not so that you can retire a wealthy man.
David Lyons:That won't happen.
Scott Harvey:Nobody makes a killing off writing a book. No, it's the idea of getting information out there. So now, how do we get this information out there? What's going on in your world right now to tell people about this book? You've got some tour dates coming up and that kind of stuff.
David Lyons:Talk a little bit about that. Yeah, I've already got a couple tour dates in Texarkana and in Grapevine, Texas, and there's more coming to actually do some book signings, some meets and greets with some true crime community people.
Scott Harvey:So if you're listening to this, relatively live Texarkana people. He's coming your way Like rally your true crime community because he's coming your way to a bookstore soon. If you're listening to it later, check his website for more dates, right.
David Lyons:Exactly I'm going to be hitting the road. The next goal is to get into some of the true crime cons, the podcast festivals, and at least start assisting in a panel, maybe, but to present on the book itself and to educate people. So that's it. I travel a lot anyway, and to plan on visiting and meeting people and getting and again creating that dialogue, bringing those ideas to the table Right. The more educated we are, the better position we put victims and their families in for down the road, and so the next steps would include that, that is to get out and meet people, talk to people, develop that relationship.
David Lyons:That includes one more time. That includes law enforcement. Yes, I don't want people.
Scott Harvey:And I'm going to throw this out I was a sergeant of a community services division for the police department for most of my career. If you are a community focused agency, you need to be contacting David about coming to a bookstore near you, because if there are active true crimers in your community, what a better way to meet them? You bring in the expert to come in and talk about the book he wrote for them and for you and you're there just as a liaison between the two and you get to meet the true crime community. You get to meet the citizens who care about this and you put on a free event, basically for your department, and you let media know that this is what you're doing. I think that's a huge win for everybody involved.
David Lyons:Open that door, open it up, open that door, yeah, yeah, extend that handshake, right, and that's a good one too. So, again, because I do believe that I think there's so much room in the law enforcement side of the fence to present and talk about what are the possibilities, what are the things to watch for. And again, reaching out and educating, yeah, I mean, when police do that, they do it really well.
Scott Harvey:Yeah.
David Lyons:I mean over the past several decades we've improved on that. So let's push that over the edge a little bit. So those are the next Decades we've improved on that.
Scott Harvey:So let's push that over the edge a little bit. So those are the next. So if I'm a true crimer, I'm looking for you possibly coming to a bookstore near me or a crime con near me. If you're not scheduled for a bookstore near me, maybe I have an independent mom and pop bookseller. What do I do? How do I help get this word out?
David Lyons:Yeah, Approach your bookstore. One I would be really flattered if people asked if the bookstore would carry it. But if you're interested with the exception of some scheduling things with FBI leader, when I'm struck with them is I can come anywhere and that's a gift I have through all the travel I do is that there's really nowhere I can't come. I just have to get it. So if you have a true crime club or a small community or a bookstore and you all be, have and thrive around this stuff, if you have an advocacy group, if you have any kind of a conference, legal update conferences, anything like that, and you want somebody to come in as a subject material expert on both sides of those fence, I'd be glad to do that.
David Lyons:I'd be flattered to get that invitation from people. So just approach. And again, if you go to murderpolicepodcastcom, I've already got a link to actually purchase the book through there and eventually I'll be adding more links on that, on appearances and things like that, to get that interest ginned up. I think flattered would be the word for me, Humble and flattered that somebody get that interest ginned up. But I think flattered would be the word for me, humbled and flattered that somebody would ask me to speak, but let's talk, yeah, and you know people listen to the podcast and you have.
Scott Harvey:There is a celebrity status to this, whether you like it or not, and people are like, well, he's not coming to my bookstore. Listen, he flew not too long ago to Seattle for lunch because he had airline miles that were getting ready to expire.
Scott Harvey:And he's going to stick it to the man by using as many of them as he can to fly to Seattle for lunch. So he's banking airline miles. He wants to come to your store no guarantees but you don't get what you don't ask for. So reach out to him. If you've set it up for your bookstore, he probably has airline miles to burn, I'm guessing.
David Lyons:I do, I do so. We'll work on that for sure. So yeah, I don't want to come off like a loofy person that just flies to Seattle for lunch. But you did, yeah, I did. But I did it because I'm tight and I'm cheap and I didn't want to let those miles go.
Scott Harvey:Well, you earned those miles, I mean you spent a lot of time and a lot of money on those miles, oh for sure. And so why not cash them in to go to a bookstore and hang out with the true crime community and the law enforcement in the area, instead of just flying out for lunch? That's my point. Not that you're being frivolous, but I have these to burn literally and I believe in this enough.
David Lyons:Yes, I want to meet, yes, and, and I, and again, I want, I want that the dialogue to just run after this, and whether I'm immediately part of it or not. Because now you know, once you start something and you get a conversation going, the exciting part is when people start bringing different dimensions to it. So that's, I'm committed to it, I think, for what it's worth. Wendy, when she's available, has agreed to travel with me so people can meet that enigma that my wife is. They've gotten used to her on the podcast. But, yeah, I feel passionate about to where this is my thing right now.
Scott Harvey:We all have that thing.
David Lyons:I believe in it enough to where all of that I'm blessed to be able to do that Right Blessed to be able to do that. So if we can share that and start a conversation and make things better for victims' families, this is what we all do.
Scott Harvey:Yeah, this is what we all do. Love that, and this is literally 25 years worth of lessons condensed down into a readable book for people the things that you've learned the hard way, and the good things and the bad things that will bring these communities together to ultimately help families and victims. That's what this is all about.
David Lyons:That's what the true crime community is. I mean at its heart, this beautiful thing called the true crime community, the true crimers, like you said. I call them in the book beautiful people. Yeah, beautiful people. It's just let's get a little more pumping in there with the ethics conversation, a little bit more of the overall view of the how-to, the ability to take a breath, to get critical thinking skills. I opened the book with a representation of the Dunning-Kruger effect about. You know, sometimes we can convince ourselves we're really smart and not be smart at all. Right, and we're not as effective when we're that way. So I think it's an opportunity.
Scott Harvey:Yeah, love it. I'm excited about it. I'm excited for the families it's going to help. I'm excited for the communities it's going to come together. What have we not talked about that we need to Anything, um, what?
David Lyons:have we not talked about that? We need to anything. I guess the uh is uh, uh, the availability of the book. Again, uh, amazon, barnes and Noble. Uh, you can go to murder police podcastcom and there's a link there to purchase that. Uh, to to get it more direct. So grab the book. Recommended to your friends. Yep, I I'll offer this to that.
David Lyons:If people have a true crime club or tight community or anything, or if we get together, is that I have the ability to offer maybe a bulk discount to where we can actually get the book in more hands of people. So if we wanted to have a discussion about the book, then everybody could get a copy at a certain price. You know this as an author. We get the flexibility to do that. Yep, and share it with your friends. Yeah, subscribe and follow us on murderpolicepodcastcom because if people have been paying attention, that's what has been leading up to this book.
David Lyons:I have investigators and law enforcement professionals who will say that I listen to the podcast because I'm learning to. Yeah, is that I feel like the podcast because I'm learning to? Yeah, is that I feel like we do a good job on educating people what the real world looks like and we would just invite people to express that, and I'll throw one more out. There is that if somebody has somebody that's going through this nightmare that none of us want to walk in those shoes on and there's a lot of frustration, I would say that this book probably may help them a little bit too. I'm careful about that. I don't want to exploit that, but I wouldn't say that if I didn't get that resonation from the people that are in that box. It said it helped them.
Scott Harvey:Well, it shows them that they're not alone, that other people have gone through this horrible road and they're pushing through to the other side. I love that you call them survivors, because that's not a completed thing. It never was. I didn't survive. Like every day, I choose to survive this horrible ordeal that my family and I went through, and this book allows me to survive a little bit more every day because I know there's people out there with good hearts trying to do good things even when they mess up, and hopefully this book will cut down on the mess ups and just show their hearts.
David Lyons:It's all do good work. I mean it's all about finding the truth. It's not about being right.
Scott Harvey:Yeah.
David Lyons:It's about finding the truth, and that's rule number one.
Scott Harvey:Yep Well, congratulations on the book, long time coming, finally out. It's going to help a whole lot of people. This completes my hostile takeover of the Murder Police podcast. I'm honored that David asked me to come out here. Honestly, I I kind of said we're doing this and he said let's go do it. So here we are. Uh, you may or may not see me again, uh, but thank you so much for tuning in. Go buy the book. Go contact your booksellers. Find them at a crime con, contact him online.
David Lyons:Let's push this out and help as many people as we possibly can. Our Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicePodcastcom, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store, where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, Instagram and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review. On Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts, Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends.
Scott Harvey:Lock it down.
David Lyons:Judy.
