The Murder Police Podcast
The Murder Police Podcast
The Drowning of Innocence: 3 Things on Susan Smith
3 Things: Susan Smith
What drives a mother to murder her own children? The Susan Smith case continues to haunt us nearly three decades later, raising profound questions about evil, justice, and the darkest corners of human nature.
When Susan Smith reported that her two young sons had been kidnapped by a male black carjacker in October 1994, the nation watched in horror as the young mother made tearful television appeals for their safe return. But something about her story didn't add up. No witnesses, inconsistent statements, and behavior that struck many as performative rather than genuine. Nine days into the investigation, the truth emerged—there was no carjacker. Susan had driven her car to John D. Long Lake with three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alexander strapped inside, then released the brake, letting the vehicle roll into the water while she escaped.
The devastating reality behind Smith's actions came into focus as investigators uncovered her relationship with a wealthy man who had recently ended their affair, making it clear he didn't want children. Rather than allowing her husband David to raise the boys, Smith chose to eliminate what she perceived as obstacles to her happiness in the most horrific way imaginable. The method of murder—drowning—inflicted terror and suffering on her children in their final moments, leaving first responders and family members with trauma that persists to this day.
This episode dives deep into Wendy and David's most striking aspects of this infamous case: the initial lie and its racial component, the heartless method of murder, and the ongoing questions about justice as Susan Smith faces regular parole hearings that force her victims' family to repeatedly relive their trauma. Should someone who deliberately murdered their children ever walk free? Join us as we examine the case that changed how America views maternal filicide and consider what true justice looks like for the most vulnerable victims.
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So I guess here's. I guess the question is and the audience really needs to kick in on this Should she get parole? I mean and again this is not to be argumentative, but it's a great philosophical question is should Susan Smith at some point get paroled, and why?
Wendy Lyons:and why Warning the podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder and adult language. Listener discretion is advised. Three Things, susan Smith A Murder Police Podcast. We're back again with three things. I'm Wendy David. How are you?
David Lyons:doing good. Yeah, I'm excited. This is one of those cases that speaks to you a great deal, so I'm excited to do it it does.
Wendy Lyons:You know, ever since you came up with the idea of doing three things, I told you from the beginning this was on my list yeah, for sure yeah, so we're finally back again and I like doing these two, I like mixing them in with the cases and things like that.
David Lyons:So for the the fans don't get all worried and freaked out and everything. We're going to mix these in and come and go with them a little bit.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, I think it's just something fun to do to kind of not break up the monotony of our typical interviewing detectives or our missings or whatever we may have. But the three things are just kind of fun mostly. Just to recap cases, this is on Susan Smith, a case from back in 1994. But also some people may not have heard of these. It's kind of something interesting to look into.
David Lyons:That's true. Yeah, the more we stretch back, the less likely people are familiar. And then, if they, are familiar, maybe a reminder. So again, we're going to do three things each on the Susan Smith case On Susan Smith.
Wendy Lyons:So why don't you tell us a little bit about the Susan Smith case from 1994?
David Lyons:Absolutely good idea. It's been a minute since this case happened, so for people that have never heard of it, let's do a general background on it, and for people that have heard of it, kind of a refresher. Let's start with some background information, kind of a refresher. Let's start with some background information. Susan Vaughn Smith was born on September 26, 1971, in Union, south Carolina. Records indicate that her childhood was rather turbulent. At some point her parents had divorced and when Susan was just six years old her father died by suicide. In 1991, she married David Smith. They had two boys, michael, born in 1991, and Alexander, born in 1993. But their marriage was rocky, marked by separations, reconciliations and ongoing conflict.
David Lyons:On October, the 4th 1994, during the evening, susan called police with a shocking story. She said she had been stopped at a red light when an African-American man approached her car, ordered her out and drove away in her car with her two children still strapped inside. That claim launched a massive manhunt. Law enforcement, volunteers and national media descended on Union. South Carolina Television shows showed Susan pleading for the safe return of Michael and Alexander, and her tearful appeals captured the nation's attention. But as the investigators dug deeper, problems emerged. No one saw the supposed carjacker, roblox, turned up nothing, and some of Susan's statements didn't match earlier versions of her story. Detectives also learned that Susan had been romantically involved with another man, one who made it clear he did not want children. That revelation shifted the focus of the investigation.
David Lyons:Nine days after the boys were reported missing, on November 3, 1994, susan Smith actually confessed. She admitted there had been no carjacker. Instead, she had driven her car to a boat ramp at John D Long Lake with Michael and Alexander inside. She released the parking brake, letting the car roll into the water. Both boys drowned, still strapped into their car seats. Divers later pulled the vehicle from the lake with the bodies of these two young children inside, from the lake, with the bodies of these two young children inside.
David Lyons:Prosecutors argued that Susan killed her sons because she saw them as an obstacle to her relationship with her lover. On the other side, the defense pointed to her history of depression and a suicide attempt shortly before the murders. Susan's trial began in July of 1995. The state sought the death penalty, describing her actions as deliberate and self-serving. The defense maintained that Susan was emotionally disturbed and not thinking rationally. On July 22, 1995, the jury found her guilty of two counts of murder. She was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. After 30 years, as of today, susan Smith is serving her sentence at the Leith Correctional Institution in Greenwood, south Carolina.
Wendy Lyons:So that catches us up with Susan Smith from 1994. Right, so, with that said, well, let's dive into our three things.
David Lyons:Absolutely, and, as always, you go first. What's your number one thing?
Wendy Lyons:Thank you. Well, my number. This case has just baffled me since it occurred. And you know, back in 94, we're talking 31 years ago there wasn't all of the true crime on TV. But you know, even back then I was still baffled by this case and you know I was young at that time. But I remember just being blown away how a mother I was blown away by the case. So let me just dive into my three things, and I've got my list of notes.
Wendy Lyons:I've been I've got, I've been working hard on this but these three things and they were so easy for me to choose because they were always I've got more than three, but they were always three things that stood out to me. Three things that stood out to me. And the first is you know Susan's claim that she was carjacked by a black male who took the car with her two children, alex and Michael, inside, and they were ages one and three, 14 months and a three-year-old. So that claim of she's at an intersection and a black male just mysteriously appears from in the night and takes her car. Now, I'm not saying carjackings don't happen, because they do, but when I heard that it just something didn't sit right.
David Lyons:So even back then, when the news, when the news broke it, it kind of spoke to you.
Wendy Lyons:It did, I thought you know, because you didn't really hear of carjackings back in 94. My first thought because at that time I'm not going to tell my age, but my first thought was oh gosh, could that happen to me at an intersection? Sure, you just didn't hear about it a lot, at least not where.
David Lyons:I grew up. Yeah, because a good point of clarification there is. You didn't hear about it a lot because we didn't have the information highway that we have now.
Wendy Lyons:No, we didn't.
David Lyons:The carjackings have been going around since the report.
Wendy Lyons:Oh, they've been going around, but I grew up in a little town, Paris, Kentucky.
David Lyons:Probably didn't have a lot in Paris.
Wendy Lyons:Didn't happen there, you know it just didn't.
David Lyons:So that was my number one thing of my three things was this male just myster times. The carjacker wasn't aware kids were in the car.
Wendy Lyons:Right.
David Lyons:For example, one of the most common ways is, if it wasn't a straight out, carjacking would be. Somebody pulls up to the gas station, leaves a kid or two in the car yes, runs in to pay for the gas, leaves the car running.
David Lyons:Exactly and a car thief jumps in. But it could still happen and has happened. Where the carjacking occurs, those happen fast, they're quick. There's a lot of anxiety and frustration and yelling and screaming and people thinking they're going to die. Really, that's what a carjacking is Right, so there's always a possibility that somebody could jump in.
Wendy Lyons:Sure, and it does happen, Sure. But I just recall back then thinking who's just going to take the car with two? And obviously when they carjack they don't know there's children in the back and most of the time you hope that they at least let the children out. But that was my first thing. It just didn't sell.
David Lyons:Well I think so too. I think I thought the same thing is that there's that old thing of what we used to say possible but not probable. Right and sometimes you have to look at these things and look at them, even naively. We can look at them and say what's the real likelihood. So I'm with you, I think back then too is I agree with you that that first story was there. And let's just the elephant in the room too, is the fact that she informally indicted a mysterious person of color.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah.
David Lyons:Is that that's one of those things that when we talk about biases and racism and stuff like that, that's one of those underlying threads in our culture, that that's going to be the scary person.
Wendy Lyons:Yes.
David Lyons:And I know that because I actually I had cases where people would identify a mysterious actor in a bad case that never existed and, ironically enough, most often it was somebody of color. So that's worth pointing out, that's worth talking about a little bit. Is that? That's an unfortunate thing, is that?
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, that she just pointed a finger. That's it, exactly, exactly.
David Lyons:And maybe in her world we don't know her and her world that synthesis made a lot of sense world. We don't know, her and her world, that synthesis made a lot of sense, but it's not uncommon either. It's not right. So, yeah, I think that's one that the people, that who were old enough to remember when this case happened is. I'll bet they agree too that they're watching the news, and that's one of those things that makes you go, hmm so the whole storyline. So, uh, what was your number two?
Wendy Lyons:well, you know, as you know, nine later she came out and told the truth. Okay, so this drags on for all these days with her, which leads into my number three. They kind of piggyback each other Sure. Number three is she's pleading and crying in front of the cameras during these nine days leading up to the nine days. Okay, the cameras during these nine days leading up to the nine days.
Wendy Lyons:Okay, so to not jump but to intertwine those now, as a, as a mom, and you as a dad, of course we're going to be pleading for our safe, our children's safe, return. Right, the dad, david Smith was his name, her husband, he was genuine, but there was something about her. Even back then I was like that seems so fake. I wasn't a mother at that time, but especially looking back now, she just didn't. It seemed very disingenuous. The tears seemed fake, she was kind of looking away and the way she was pleading just seemed forced and fake to me.
Wendy Lyons:So when it comes out nine days later that she had done this, that intertwines with my two, three, which I guess are together was it was a suicide attempt, right? Okay, so that also never set well with me because I and thank God I've never been in a position where I've contemplated that. But if you are looking to commit suicide, why are you going to murder your two children along with you? That suicide is for you not to murder your two children, and subsequently she jumped out of the car at the last moment. Her body couldn't let her do it.
Wendy Lyons:I, I think something I read at one point said that. So at that point then, it's not a suicide attempt, you're just murdering your two children. So was it a suicide attempt? In my opinion? No, it wasn't. And again, let me preface, this is only my opinion. We're all welcome to our own opinions and if you don't agree with it, I'm sorry, but that's mine. I just thought if that is a suicide attempt, why are you going to involve your two young children with that and why in that kind of horrific manner?
Wendy Lyons:True Murder-suicide, though Not uncommon, not uncommon, but why two innocent children? We see that in domestics, that's murder-suicide is that you?
David Lyons:take something from somebody, and so I see what you're saying. Now we rationalize it as parents as that. We couldn't do that, but I might have. I don't know I might have mentioned before, but when you're in policing, one of the things that you do is you find people who are deceased. People don't get the mail, they don't show up, they don't go to work and usually a family member, landlord, somebody calls and the police come up and you enter into a home or an apartment under exorbitant circumstances because there's a problem that people believe is there.
David Lyons:And we do that and that's part of the job. And then you go in through a window or a door or something and unfortunately sometimes you find people deceased. And the first experience I had on patrol with that was a murder-suicide where a father shot his baby I used the word baby, I believe the child was about 18 months old and then shot himself. And in that case so there's the completion of that act and the father was estranged, there was a divorce proceeding and of course the running theory and probably was accurate is that nobody was going to have that child.
David Lyons:If that was going to be interrupted so well, I think that she probably used that as a defense, probably for sure and whatnot. So you have those who are known and they're unfortunately very frequent. But the other thing too, with suicide too, is when people don't go through or they change their minds. So I get what you're saying, but it is possible Now I think that she probably articulated a defense with it, because when you've done something like this, the defense team is going to have to throw everything against the wall they can.
Wendy Lyons:Oh sure.
David Lyons:But people do change their minds, you know, I've read articles.
Wendy Lyons:They do. But then why did she not attempt to get her children back out of that car or at least run and try to get help to get them out?
David Lyons:Yeah exactly, car or at least run and try to get help to get them out. Yeah exactly. Oh yeah, those are the things and I do understand people do change minds.
Wendy Lyons:However, I think the difference in the case that you had, with the 17 month old being shot because it was a custody dispute, the difference here is she was having an affair with a wealthy man named tom finley and prior to these murders, he had sent her a letter telling her that he wanted to end the relationship, he didn't want children, and then these children end up, well, being murdered.
Wendy Lyons:So in your case, the man had a custody dispute. This isn't that she was fighting a custody battle with her husband David, that she was fighting a custody battle with her husband David. She simply wanted to be with this man who didn't want kids. So the kids were in the way, which led me to my next point of then. If the kids were in your way, why didn't you just say you take the children. I'm going over here with Mr Finley, who doesn't want kids, but you're going to murder them and deprive them of life because you're selfish and you want to be with a man who doesn't want kids, right Right, because I think that's something that came up in that case.
Wendy Lyons:Often it did, and he made it abundantly clear he didn't want kids, that was a problem for him and then, mysteriously, the kids get abducted in this carjacking and driven into this lake Right Exactly was horrendous. I mean, even still today there's a memorial at the john d long lake for these two little boys. And you know, you've watched documentaries. When her upcoming um parole in 2024, there was a documentary with her husband who obviously did not want her out oh, of course and you know this man struggled and I'm sure still obviously today still does.
Wendy Lyons:But he would have gladly taken his children if she wanted to go gallivant with her new love affair.
David Lyons:Sure, yeah, as opposed to killing, that's what I think that's what reasonable people would do, but of course now we're way outside reason right I mean, that's what it is with all these cases. There's no reasonableness in any of this, that that's why they're evil, right, I mean it is because there's no reasonableness. So let's recap before we go further. What was your number one again?
Wendy Lyons:Well, the claim of the black man carjacking and driving the car, the lie, the lie, the initial lie.
David Lyons:Yeah, and that's a good one too, because it's a lie. That was powerful, because you had a lot of people turn their attention to it when the media got hold of it and a lot of people really in that camp of can we find these children, I mean the panic that that causes and the fear that causes, that is excellent.
Wendy Lyons:What was your number two? Well, my two three combined was her looking and pleading at the camera Please return my children safely. I miss you, michael Alex. I love you. Please return my boys. And then the suicide claim that came in there to say that, yes, I did this, but it was an attempt to commit suicide, gotcha. So those were my three things that stood out with that case.
David Lyons:So what would be neat is if the people that are watching if they can go down to the comment section and talk about those three things again, like what is their opinion on those three things? And, as always, if we've got some gaps, because we just summarized these pretty quickly, oh, yeah, yeah, there's so many more details in this case, that I didn't cover.
Wendy Lyons:Those are just three things that stood out to me. And again I want to say because sometimes these are points of contention, these are only my opinion, this is just what spoke to me since 1994 in this case that even back then, like I said before I, before I had a child, I had me scratching my head of how does a mom do that? And now, obviously that I have a child, who does that?
Wendy Lyons:What kind of monster does that to their child? And I have to say, after watching that recap with her husband, David, who since has remarried and had two children, that was such a powerful thing to watch. But I wonder, you know, when she got denied that parole? It was reported and I don't know who reported it, I only had read about it and heard about it.
Speaker 3:She had a fit in her cell because she got denied her parole and I thought to myself Kentucky Case Files explores infamous and overlooked true crime in the bluegrass state, covering tantalizing cases that made headlines large and small throughout Kentucky history. Kcf delves deep into the serious, macabre and always fascinating stories that showcase why Kentucky was once called the dark and bloody ground, Available wherever you get your podcasts.
Wendy Lyons:Even now, in 2025, all these years later, 31 years later, how can you live with yourself? You've had plenty of time to commit suicide, and I'm not advocating people commit suicide, but if that's what she was wanting to do, but how does she sit there and toy with? I don't even deserve parole. I killed my two little boys, and when I heard that she had a fit because she got denied, well, clearly she doesn't.
David Lyons:Well, most people who kill other people don't.
David Lyons:And that's a. You know, we could do a whole show and maybe bring some other detectives back in and maybe even some attorneys. But what people forget is that if you have the capacity to do this, you're wired differently than most everybody else in society. Yes, the people that take another life are the outlier. I know we have statistics and it looks like it's common, but they don't have that capacity. If they could feel remorse, if they could feel true regret, they would never take the life in the first place. But that's that whole thing of that discussion of what is evil, which I believe exists, and it comes down to always, comes down to narcissism and being the center of the universe and and that's it her, her wants, her desires continue to come in front of the lives of those two children, her husband and the community. That's evil, yes, and that's why she has a tantrum.
Wendy Lyons:Yes.
David Lyons:That is a devil that can't get out, and because that's narcissism, me, me, me. So those are good, those are real good, thank you. I'm going to jump into mine because they play off of yours a little bit too, so you're number one.
David Lyons:Yeah, the number one thing was the way those kids died. Oh, kids died, and you know it's. You'll hear everybody that is in the business say that it's a tough business emotionally to begin with, but that's exacerbated. And the toughest thing is when you deal with the death of a child. And I will tell you that it's not just a murder, it's going to someone's home when a death has occurred for whatever reason. And again, I think it's because if we're parents or we're thinking about being parents, we can empathize and try to put ourselves in those shoes. And it's difficult, it's always horrible. I got blessed with not doing too terribly many, although I aided in a bunch of them. Where we were, where I worked, is that Child Against the Crimes, against Children's Unit would actually pony up and run up front and then the homicide unit would come in as a support unit to that. But in this case it was brutal.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, and not only it's horrible enough that she chose to do that to her two babies, but I think oftentimes people don't think about the first responders or the divers, in this case, who had to go pull those little boys out of that car, yeah, you know that's, that's something I'm sure. Still 31 years later, they can't shake oh no, that's in their ptsd box. There's no doubt about that, yeah, and just to think what those two little boys went through. You know that's suffering.
David Lyons:Well, yeah, and I guess that's the part that's hard about that, because you had mentioned who does that. Why would she go in and attempt a rescue? And then, of course, the whole thing about going into days of lying until they got a confession out of her. But you know, because you have to wonder one. It's pretty clear from the evidence that I've seen or not evidence, the material I've seen is that they were strapped into car seats Into car seats, so there's no mobility there.
David Lyons:Then you wonder if they were awake. I think in testimony maybe I read, and somebody in the audience can straighten this out that they felt pretty sure at least one was awake.
Wendy Lyons:Even if they were asleep, I'm sure when the water started coming in they woke up pretty quick. That's the point.
David Lyons:is that, yeah, so they both were awake, yeah, unless she, you know, drugged them or something like that. But either way, yeah, you're going to wake up. And then, once the children are aware, you know just trying to think of the fear, the panic, and the first thing that they're going to think about is where is my mom?
Wendy Lyons:Right.
David Lyons:And of course, they don't have any capacity at that point to put together that mom just did this, but that adds so much pain to this is that the first thing a child thinks about because that's their sense of security, where security should be is where is my mom?
Wendy Lyons:Yes.
David Lyons:Or my dad, however the case, wherever this is at.
David Lyons:And then that panic, and I guess one thing I thought about is that one of my favorite movies and books of all time is a movie called the Perfect Storm, and the book was written by a guy named Sebastian Younger, and I remember reading the book is that he talked a lot from interviewing people what that's like to drown, and he interviewed people that had been so close to that failed line of death when they were drowning and rescued or something to the end that he went into a lot of detail and then I found later that in a book he had called In my Time of Dying is that Sebastian Younger actually had a near-death experience in a drowning incident.
David Lyons:And when you talk to people or listen to people, he breaks it down like this he talks about how, when it first happens, you have that initial, what he calls the initial shock and disorientation. He said it was almost like a black pit opening up and pulling him in, like a sense of disbelief. And of course, a child has no sensory experience at all on this, that it would just consume them, but for adults or people that have more awareness, is that this trying to accept the fact that this is actually happening right now, that this is going on. For a child, that'd be a little bit different, but again that just exacerbates that terror that had to have been there, the fact that when that shuts off and you can't, it's that conscious struggling for air, trying to get air in and it's not going to happen.
Wendy Lyons:No, and I'm sure they were crying and gulping more water, as they were crying Right exactly.
David Lyons:Yeah, gulping water technically happens later because you're shutting down. Your body is doing everything it can because the body knows it can't take any water into that trachea, into the lungs, but it does that. But he talks about how it really messes with the, the vocal cords, and how you change your blood oxygen levels and things like that. Um, and then the body starts to shut down, which is which is once the body goes without oxygen, is that it does start to cataclysmically shut down?
David Lyons:and uh, while we're still conscious too, is that that's going on? Uh, you weaken you. Uh, that's when we get lightheaded and all those kind of things. And then, uh, he talked to other people when he did the book about how there's a point where you just black out and then if, if, if, we get water in our, that's likely to be the time when that's going to happen. So, to think about those experiences, especially with a child, and again, they're not going to be, fundamentally aware of what all that means.
David Lyons:but holy cow, how terrible my number two plays off of your quasi 2-3 thing is when she reports that story. That sends off all the alarm bells and all of the king's horsemen and all the king's men are on board for an investigation, Multi-jurisdictional, everywhere, including and I'd have to look, but I have got to assume the FBI wrote in at some point, and even a lot of people in the community were outreaching. That's it. It's people searching people caring.
David Lyons:And the part of that that's frustrating, because I've experienced it as well is that vast amount of resources that's simply wasted. And some people might write that off and say, well, it's the cost of business and I get that and everything. But there's another thing called opportunity cost and what that is is that the time spent chasing the BS that she laid out and I will say this I can guarantee you that part of that investigation included some segment of that investigation was probably working to disprove her story, because there was suspicions from the early on, but until then, for the public and for the seeking of justice going on. But here's what I'm getting at All of that monumental time spent on that BS, other cases, other situations were being put on another burner.
David Lyons:And we've talked about it before. It's the reality of the business. It's not. Everything goes in a pot at the same time. You can't cook with more than two hands and that pales to the death of the children. But it's also disgusting, again, that that narcissism and that selfishness of the idea of consuming all that energy that could have been used somewhere yes, it's crazy.
David Lyons:That's just uh a somebody who's been through it. It uh uh I I can remember personally, uh, criminally charging people for lying to us and initiating an investigation, and when we found out that was my practice is that you took a criminal charge and in some cases, police departments can actually and governments can sue you. They can calculate all the hours that were spent on it and they can sue you.
David Lyons:So my number two was that just disgusting use of resources. And now number three is something that I think that we can ask the audience to really chip in on a little bit, and you touched on it as well is that she was up for parole in 2024, got denied, had a temper tantrum.
David Lyons:I'm not surprised. Unfortunately, she will be up for parole every two years, which means the family and everybody has to saddle up. Dave Smith has to saddle up, Everybody has to saddle up. Go in front of the board, Beg, beg, beg, beg and we've covered cases where that's happened For example in the murder of Michael Turpin is when you learn the anguish that has on a family to repeat and relive that and then you go into court and you think that you've got justice and you get a sentence and then these family members often spend the rest of their lives trying to ensure that that justice holds on. And the sad reality is is that if people don't go to those hearings, then those people get a greater likelihood of getting out. So David Smith is going to deal with that every two years.
Speaker 3:Yes.
David Lyons:Unless maybe I have no idea what it's like in South Carolina, but like, for example, in the Michael Turpin case at some point just a few years ago, that they, the two suspects in Michael's death, were ordered to serve out, which means they took that off the table and they can't apply anymore. And what a relief.
Wendy Lyons:Yes.
David Lyons:Because you know, michael's parents are considerably older than when he was murdered and living that nightmare. So I guess here's. I guess the question is and the audience really needs to kick in on this Should she get parole? I mean and again this is not to be argumentative, but it's a great philosophical question is to should susan smith at some point get paroled, and why? And I would never, I won't take anybody and we won't debate them on and everything, but I'm interested to see because people have a lot of unique ideas.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, I'd like to know their ideas. And again, it's only an opinion and we all have our own Sure. Can I give my opinion?
Speaker 3:Yeah for sure yeah.
Wendy Lyons:Well, I don't think she should. Yeah, because again, david, the husband, has to relive that. But even if David wasn't on the table to have to relive it, you chose to strap your children in a car Right, lie and say that a black man carjacked you and drove your car. What took off with the car? Drove your car away with your two children and then you're going to come clean that you did it. But we should 30 years, some later, however long with that time when she gets it, just pretend like it didn't happen and you can come walk the streets. Your babies aren't walking the streets, they're dead.
David Lyons:Yeah, it questions what her sense of justice is. Yes, Because, I'm going to believe I'm with you. I don't think she should ever walk out of a facility. Pro in some exceptional circumstances might be applicable in the death of another person.
Wendy Lyons:Sure, depending on the circumstance, that's it, but one case at a time.
David Lyons:But then again, people have a lot of philosophical reasons, maybe they have religious reasons, maybe they have different belief systems or anything. So I'm going to ask on the audience is what do you think? And again, if you've watched and listened to me and Wendy, we are not going to take you on. This is not a—.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, no, it's not a debate. It's not to argue, it's about starting a conversation. It's just well, and appreciating also that we just want to see what people's opinions are. That's it and we respect their opinion like we want ours respected.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Wendy Lyons:And some people may say oh my gosh, I can't believe. Wendy said she should never see the light of day. That's my opinion.
David Lyons:That's it, yeah, and I think in this world we need to get back to the point where we can express opinions and have dialogues without going at each other.
Wendy Lyons:Oh yeah, you don't got to be mad at somebody because you don't like what they think. That's it.
David Lyons:So the Murder Police Podcast. We're not about that, no. So again I guess people. Should she eventually get parole? Let's ask a few things. Maybe people can answer. Should an answer. Should she get parole? How much time she's already served a significant amount of time. How much time should she or somebody like her actually spend? If you were a juror and you found her guilty and you gave her that sentence, what would you expect? That came up on the radio talk show I just did, where when jurors go through all of that trouble because being on a criminal jury in a big case like this is emotionally draining and it's very difficult for people but if a jury decides and says life or 60 years, should that person do that? Or should the jury get like a side note that says, ok, if you give them 60, they could get out in 12 and or what. So maybe the audience can talk about that. Put yourselves, if you're a juror and you gave that sentence, well, how would that impact you if that person got out earlier or substantially?
Wendy Lyons:earlier, and I would even like to piggyback to that and add if you were the other parent, would you be okay with that parent who murdered your children, your babies?
David Lyons:Right.
Wendy Lyons:Would you be okay with them being out walking around?
David Lyons:Yeah, and there we go. And should the surviving victims' family members have a harder say on that than anybody?
Wendy Lyons:else I feel like they should. Oh for sure, yeah, I think that's the unless you've had your feet in those shoes and you've stuck those babies in a casket right and watch them go under the ground right are you okay with her getting out? Maybe you're going to see her at the walmart or the kroger or wherever you grocery shop right because I'm going to tell you I wouldn't be okay with seeing the person who murdered my child out walking around, because I'd be landed myself back in prison. Real, real soon.
David Lyons:Probably so.
Wendy Lyons:That's how I feel that's David Smith's children. I'm not even going to call them Susan's children, because a mother shouldn't do that to her babies.
David Lyons:So back to it again. If the audience would just jump in and let's jump in, share your opinions have a good philosophical conversation about, maybe in broadening context too is when. When should perot apply and when should now what? What are your non-negotiables? What? Is the audience's non-negotiables and, uh, that ought to be a pretty good discussion, so we can start with susan and work our way out as to how this works.
Wendy Lyons:Yeah, and I think also, if it were a different circumstance and it was a car wreck and she couldn't help it, that okay, that's different, it was an accident. This was a deliberate act.
David Lyons:It was.
Wendy Lyons:So how does? How does? Do you feel like she should be out, since it was a deliberate act versus it was a car wreck? She couldn't get them out in time and they subsequently died Right and she was heartbroken and she ran to the police.
David Lyons:Whatever the circumstance may be, In that scenario we would not be talking about this case.
Wendy Lyons:That's right. This was a case of murder, that's it. Tried and true murder. I also would like to know I don't think we've ever asked our audience and again, a lot of people may not have known of this susan smith case because it was from so long ago, but I would like to know those of you who had, or if you look into it online what are your three things?
David Lyons:what three?
Wendy Lyons:things stands out. Becca, my big german shepherd, wants her.
David Lyons:Yes, you'll see her popping in and out a little bit.
Wendy Lyons:Becca, what's your three things? Milk, bones, cookies.
David Lyons:And milk bones and more milk bones. You're like see, now she's looking because she thinks I have some Well good deal. I think your three were good, yeah, I like yours too.
David Lyons:I'm excited for everybody watching or listening. If you listen, pop over to YouTube. Excited for everybody watching or listening. If you listen, pop over to YouTube. You should have subscribed to us by now on the Murder Police Podcast channel and let us know what you think. Until the next time, take care so their names are never forgotten.
David Lyons:It is produced, recorded and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicePodcastcom, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, instagram and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are hearing impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars and a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcasts. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop, and please tell your friends. Lock it down, judy.
