In the Wake of Golgotha with Daniel Grace | Part 1 of 2

A crucifixion is a historical event, a religious symbol, and also a legal sentence carried out by real people. That’s the doorway we walk through with author Daniel Grace, a Chianti Classico winemaker who wrote a dark, modern literary thriller rooted in an ancient act of capital punishment.

We talk about his debut novel, In The Wake Of Golgotha, and why he chose to reimagine Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate not as flat villains, but as human beings trapped in the aftermath of judgment. Daniel shares the research that surprised him most: how little we truly know about these figures, how “convenient narratives” harden into cultural memory, and why the question of who is responsible still haunts modern true crime conversations.

From there, we draw sharp parallels between ancient Jerusalem and present-day New York City, between crucifixion and the death penalty, and between courtroom procedure and the spiritual rituals that surround an execution. We also explore the uncomfortable “middle hands” of justice, the people tasked with carrying out a sentence, and how juries weigh guilt when addiction, trauma, and desperation are part of the story. If you’re interested in capital crime cases, jury psychology, crime and punishment, redemption, and the overlap between faith and violence, this bonus conversation goes straight to the hard questions.

Subscribe to Murder Police Podcast, share this episode with a friend who loves thoughtful true crime, and leave us a review with your take: can any sentence ever truly fit the worst crimes?

Order your copy of In The Wake of Golgotha today!

https://www.amazon.com/Wake-Golgotha-Daniel-Grace/dp/B0FY3WCZWR/

David's book, True Crime and Consequences is FINALLY available!

This book explores the intricate and often controversial relationship between the true crime community and law enforcement. For  amateur sleuths, true crime fans, and social media detectives and cops everywhere.

http://truecrimeconsequences.com/

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FBQ4BT5Q

Do you have your copy of David's book True Crime and Consequences? Get your copy today at https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FBQ4BT5Q.

See what you have been missing on YouTube!

Transcript

Content Warning And Welcome

Daniel Grace 0:00

You know, I should say I'm I'm I'm not an attorney. I happen to be married to one. Um, but you know, a lot of my research was looking at sort of the legal procedure of a of a of a capital crime case. And, you know, so there's sort of the obvious parallels of, you know, that you can't help, but all of a sudden the light bulb goes off, and you start considering kind of the just the notion and the collective body of a jury being 12 souls, and you go back to the apostles of 12 apostles, and you start looking at sort of just the relationship of these dozen cast of characters throughout history, not in just these two episodes. And there's something, there is something mystical about that that jury of twelve.

Wendy 0:44

The podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.

Meet Daniel Grace The Winemaker

David 1:19

Well, welcome to the Murder Police Podcast. I'm David. Wendy is out running her businesses. That's always a double-edged sword for her. She loves doing a podcast, but business calls sometimes. But I've got a special bonus set of episodes that we're going to run today on a gentleman I met through email named Daniel Grace. And so welcome to the podcast, Daniel.

Daniel Grace 1:37

Absolute pleasure to be here. This is going to be a fantastic conversation.

David 1:40

I I am I am intrigued. And I don't want to uh dive in and chip the crowd off too much to what it's going to be about, but I definitely believe it's going to be good, or we wouldn't have sat down together for sure and uh taken the time to put this together. So if give us a 36,000-foot view of who you are, what you do, and where you're going to take our imagination.

Daniel Grace 2:00

Perfect, because it's it's a it's a long answer that I'll try and make short. So by by trade, um, I'm a winemaker and I don't look like it. I don't look like a typical Tuscan wine producer, um, but I I own and operate a family winery in the heart of the Chiante Classico region. Um it's actually a property that it's Etruscan roots date back 2,000 years. Um the vineyards were first planted by Franciscan monks in the 1500s. Um were primarily a Sangiovese producer. So I'm I operate in a valley steeped with with history and poetry, and it's an ex it's an exciting, inspiring place to write, which is a a good segue into my, you know, my other side hustle, if you will, as a as a writer of books like this.

David 2:44

I love it. I love it. Absolutely. Hold that up again just a little longer. We gotta make sure we pitch. Okay, what a name. Okay, okay, even the name, we have to admit, the name just says, tell me more. And uh it's neat to meet spy in the wine business. I know that uh a few years ago I took Wendy out the week after Christmas to drive some of the PCH out in California. And we got to go through we actually landed in wine country and kind of worked our way back down and whatnot. So uh beautiful. Uh do you happen to make a Moscato di Aste?

Daniel Grace 3:14

Not a Moscato di Aste, not yet. We have a lovely Vincent, we've got a Rosato, a Trebiano, but primarily we're a Chanti Classico producer that's focused on our on our San Gioveze. Gotcha.

David 3:26

Do you know if your if your wine makes it to Kentucky?

Daniel Grace 3:28

You know, it's interesting. We make it close. We make it to Cincinnati. And so um we're we're in about 40 states in in the U.S. Kentucky's got some some complicated laws when it comes to importing wine. Um we produce about 200.

David 3:41

Very much so. That that's why I asked. Is is it it's it's almost like we're very Puritan or stuck up or something. It's kind of crazy.

Daniel Grace 3:48

There's a complicated friend. I'll have to head up.

David 3:51

Cincinnati's not too far. Next time I'm up in Cincinnati, I'll have to make sure I pick some of those up. And I asked about the diosti, because if Wendy was here, that's hers. I mean, it's got almost always has to be a sparkling white. And me, I'm really good with the uh the rich reds, the dry reds, and things like that. I try to stay close to ketosis, and those are keto friends. Exactly.

Daniel Grace 4:08

So this is why we get along for sure. And and tell Wendy that my heart also leans towards Francia Corta. So so you know, she speaks my language too. Oh, fantastic.

What Golgotha Means And Why

David 4:18

Well, let's let's dive in, kind of an interesting career to be in uh and whatnot, but let's go ahead and and uh identify the book and and tell us what that title means and let's walk in from Sure, sure.

Daniel Grace 4:29

So the the book, it's my my debut literary thriller, if you will, um, and it's called In the Wake of Golgotha. And just to sort of set the scene, um, for those of you who don't know, Golgotha is also known as Calvary Hill. Um, and it is up at the top of the Via Della Rosa at the Plateau of Skulls, upon Golgotha, where Christ was crucified. Um, and so the book, it isn't necessarily about that act, um, but it's certainly about the aftermath. And it's about who, you know, so it's not about who rose, it's about who fell and who stayed behind and who remains in the shadow of that cross. Um, and it's a it's a reimagining and a retelling of the story of two of history's most infamously damned characters, that of Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate. Um, and really their their wrestle with crime and punishment. And it's a it's a modern-day contemporary story of violence, addiction, guilt, sorrow, crime, punishment, um, and ultimately about a quest of redemption. Um, and you know, which I think is so relevant for today's discussion because sort of the the origins of the story ultimately lie, you know, in, as far as I'm concerned, sort of the the ultimate true crime, the this moment of capital punishment, of crucifixion that occurred 2,000 years ago upon this hill. And the story is really about who cast judgment, who committed the crime, who served the sentence. Um, and it's really a uh a story that unfolds over 2,000 years.

David 6:01

And can I add we're recording this during Lent?

Daniel Grace 6:04

Well, exactly. It's it's appropriate. It's it's perfect timing. So said my publisher.

David 6:09

No, there we go. It uh it so there's the kismet part of it, the providence part of it. So it uh well let's let's roll. Uh dig in, start anywhere you want to with it. I'm intrigued. I I haven't had a chance to read the book yet. I'm always pretty clear with people about when I haven't, but it it's it's in the cart and it's ready to come. And and uh and to let you know too, is just in June I published my first book. And the fun part about when you're done publishing, uh Daniel, is you actually get to read again. Right, exactly. Because when you're in the middle of writing, you're not reading anything except your own stuff. And most of the time, me, I'm questioning why I even wrote one sentence. So um congratulations to you on that. But go ahead and take us through it and let's let's row and and and talk about it.

Daniel Grace 6:49

Amazing. And and congratulations to you too. That's a it's a it's a it's a slippery, deep, dark rabbit hole when you go down the path of writing a book. So, you know, we've come through relatively unscathed, so you know, good for us, I say. Um so yeah, so in the wake of Golgotha, and so I was kind of struck by the idea of the death of legend. Um, and as we kind of came out of the last century, what I was struck by was that as a modern contemporary culture, um we found less of a need and there were less revel less relevance for these incredible sort of mythological, biblical, literary, even comic book heroes and antiheroes, that for generations upon generations really served as our collective compass, right? In terms of whether it's social good, whether it's sort of this this play of immortality versus morality. And as we sort of came into the digital age, um, I was just struck by the fact that um those m sort of mystical and mythological, some real, some fictitious, uh heroes and antiheroes um were replaced by very real, fallible people. So the origins of the story sort of started really with this loss of legend, this death of legend, um, and this wake around this this moment in time. Um I then became, as part of this cast of characters, uh somewhat obsessed with this character of Judas Iscariot. Um, and that led me down this path to sort of reconsider really the crime that he had been sentenced for. Uh and I think what's interesting about both Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate, you know, these are two people who have become almost abstract adjectives. They've become violent, villainous verbs throughout the ages, uh, and yet they're they're rather two-dimensional people. Um and so what was interesting when I was considering you know this moment on a hill um and again this trial and this crime and this punishment and this this capital punishment in the form of crucifixion, which is a word that rarely escapes the human psyche, yet alone the human mouth, and it and it and it stings on its way out. And yet this was a standard form of capital punishment two thousand years ago. It it still currently exists as as a form of capital punishment in in in many pockets of our of our world. Um I was struck by the fact that historically and culturally, these two characters, Judas and Pilate, for the role that they played in this crucifixion, um, have been you know more than damned by culture, they've been lynched by history. Um and what I found in starting to do some of the research around you know the their steps towards this hill of Golgotha was how little was known about these pivotal players. And there's almost a Mandela effect around what we think we know around Judas Iscariot and Pontius Pilate. And what was fascinating was having to kind of deconstruct the almost convenient narrative about their backstory, about their intention, about the roles that they played, you know, in terms of whether they were complicit, um, whether they were responsible. And what was fascinating, historically speaking, both of them, you know, they're almost ghosts in terms of sort of their past and also what happened to them after the cross, right? There's the narrative of Judas's suicide at the bottom of Golgotha. There's the narrative of Pilate's silence for his remaining six years in Judea. Um, and yet I was fascinated about it about the impact of these characters. So that's the that's the setup and kind of the backstory of of the book.

The Death Of Legend And Judas

David 10:51

Fascinating. And when you're saying that it resonates as somebody who was uh raised uh just to be honest, a traditional Catholic and and we study scripture and we we go to school for that and everything. But you're right, it's like uh the the biblical story that we're told or handed down is is kind of like a a a show with commercial time breaks. There's not a lot of time that's in it, and it's gonna go straight to the material points. And my curiosity piqued while you were talking about it is that I'm starting yeah, because now I'm starting to think that uh uh who they were, what their role was, and and you you made a good point. It's 2,000 years ago. What were the cultural and societal expectations and norms of people in those positions faced with those things? Uh we you know, we both know that when people go back, in my opinion, and they criticize people in history, uh largely criticize them, a lot of times they don't take into account for the world they were living in. And it's pretty easy to armchair quarter pack now and look back and say this and that. Uh and I won't worry about a whole lot too big, but also in a religious context, everybody that was involved in in any of that had a significant role and by design. I'll stop there. I don't want to go in and deviate that too much. But uh where do you start, Daniel? How do you when you get interested, you've got these two uh people that we we know and we've been raised to know about, and uh you want to learn more about them. How do how does one take that on? How do you how do you go further with that?

Building A Modern New York Thriller

Daniel Grace 12:15

Well, it's interesting. So in considering those two characters, I I also knew that I didn't necessarily want to write a book that was sort of a retelling of a biblical story. And so I knew that I wanted to write a story about um kind of their journey through through history that brought them into a contemporary setting in New York and draw parallels of capital punishment um 2,000 years ago to what it is today, and draw parallels between ancient Jerusalem and ancient Rome to current-day New York City, kind of the the dawn of a good declining empire, perhaps. Um, and so what I the story that was crafted ultimately is around um sort of inspired by some, you know, some uh a series of of brutal murders that took place in New York, and it and it's sort of centered around this character who again has sort of a loose reference to kind of this shadowy, almost uh uh kind of for lack of a better word, this dark evil presence who crucifies three men in his moldy basement, bloody um uh basement hall in Chinatown, New York. And it's this this violent intersection and bringing in modern-day addiction um that brings in the current incarnations of these two characters. And and part of it is because, you know, Golgotha and this moment on a hill 2,000 years ago, and and and the trial of Christ and Caiaphas's role as a high priest in in that and the laws around, you know, the who can put um someone to death in ancient Jerusalem, and it can only be done by the hand of Rome, hence Pontius Pilate. Um, you know, that's this is thin ice territory, right? This is oftentimes taboo territory that you don't want to necessarily confront. So the intention was to was to shake the tree today, right? And not shake the tree 2,000 years ago and and tell a story that has relevance today about um all of our collective struggles uphill, right? And and and the guilt and the sorrow and the sin and the hopelessness and the hope and the quest for redemption that we all carry forward up our own hills. And and who are we to cast judgment? Yet reflecting on, we absolutely do cast judgment. And so um the how did I start the story? Uh, you know, again, I think it was in this sort of blank canvas of the past, which which throughout the book, there are sort of whispers and echoes back to these original characters in that original time. Um, but for the most part, it's really just this, you know, tale of violence bringing these characters together and reconciling sort of their role in a modern society relative to um their past lives, incarnations, um, and and and again, the the guilt that they carry forward. So it's that's as some of the reviews that have been fantastic have said, you know, this is not a light beach read. So um, you know, this is, you know, for as far as I'm concerned, I'm I'm coming from it, from a place of a of a of a practicing cat a practicing Catholic, um, but very aware. I didn't want to craft a biblical tale. This is not necessarily a religious story. This is kind of a, this is a this is a dark-leaning literary thriller that's looking at biblical characters through a lens of modern day, as they say, crime and punishment um and sort of our struggle through through darkness. And um it's uh it's it it's been a fascinating journey because I was also struck with sort of the idea, it's it's it's also a story of kind of a universal ego in a knit. And as a as a student of Samuel Beckett and Waiting for Godot and a lot of other things, um, you know, I was also struck um by the relationship of of Judas and Pilate and kind of this strength on on one hand and weakness on the other, and yet fate bringing them together. And you you can't help but wonder in the narrative, you know, this is this is all of our struggle. Um, and so you then draw those associations with with any characters in Greek mythology, any characters in Roman mythology, every other religion on the planet starts with a painful trip up a hill and an encounter of tremendous violence. And then when you even start thinking about comic book heroes and anti-heroes, you know, at the end of the day, these are very much stories and tales, often dark, often one-way journeys that are really that struggle of ego in it. Um, and you know, I I found this story, I found it faith-affirming to kind of challenge the convenient narrative of the roles of Judas and Iscariot. And I and I found myself personalizing, if you will, their journey and their questions and their sacrifice and their strength and their weakness relative to, again, this Messiah, right? And again, these are these are sort of pan-religious conversations and pan-generational conversations that I found, you know, as I say, sort of faith-affirming. But at the same time, I also wanted to write a tale, you know, that that will resonate with an atheist, with someone who has more of an agnostic view, and I think who just was looking through this from a historical lens and is sort of fascinated by our cultural relationship. Again, I keep harping back on it, um, of crime and punishment. There's sort of an anchoring line in the book. In many ways, it was the first line uh that that I wrote. It didn't start the book, but this was my anchoring statement was this notion of there is no crime to fit this sentence, there is no sentence to fit this crime. And it's about being put to death again and again and again. Um, and I think it's it's that relationship that I just found fascinating and and invigorating and thrilling, actually.

David 18:25

It's funny you said that about the uh the lens that people were approaching to because I was thinking the same thing, is that uh again, I I think it's not so much who the author is or the creator of the material, it's the lens that we bring to it. And my and that why I was thinking that it really wouldn't matter uh what religious uh background you come from if you had a religious background, is the relevancy, I think, is that we still talk about the death penalty today. For sure. And uh from from many different and and just to be candid, I've I've participated in Capitol Motor cases back in my career. And uh and even when you're close to those and those things are on the book, I can tell you from a personal examination that you think about it the entire time. Uh not just the gravity of the situation, but uh the quote you just gave. And uh so the relevancy is there. And again, it I think the ability for people to bring their own lens to something like that is gonna make it uh wide open to have that discussion on that, too. So uh it's interesting too that you can fold that back historically back to people like that in that question. Uh uh where did you go next on your plot line? And and it because you talked about the it's already intriguing, the the basement scenes and things like that. But how did you go to to develop the characters with the references to the past and everything? What spoke to you to develop your main characters?

Daniel Grace 19:44

So to create these two incarnations of these damned cursed characters. So I have sort of this modern incarnation of the Judas Iscariot character is a character, uh Jude Sichar, who he is a social worker. He works in a in a in a in a former shell of a church as a at a at a homeless soup kitchen. He's a part-time literary, sort of volunteer literature professor in a community college. And so he it's his awareness of his past, of his past sin and betrayal. And yet, you know, from his perspective, this was about strength and sacrifice, and it's about his timeless struggle and tumble with this. Um where the criminal element comes in is this modern incarnation of the Pontius Pilate character, um, who I have him crafted as he works for a global, ravenous corporate law firm that has started this practice, um, which they believe has this sort of Arthurian nobility of criminal defense. Um, but it's really about owning more than earnings and equity. It's about earning souls. You know, it's sort of the metaphor of this sort of dark, darkly present law firm. Um, so he's this this Peter Pfeiffer character, that's the incarnation of this of Pontius Pilate's character, is put in the predicament to defend this sociopath who's been overwhelmed by this dark shadow, who has crucified these three souls in his Chinatown uh basement. And what was so fascinating is that enabled me to kind of visit not only through a historical perspective, but very current, the reality of capital punishment. Um, and so you know, part of his journey into this his sort of timeless tango with death was this, you know, this early witnessing of a capital pun of an electrocution that had taken place in in Angola, which is the Louisiana Louisiana State Penitentiary. And and so, you know, again, my perspective is whether it's wearing a cross that dangles next door heart or talking about crime and punishment today, I think so I don't want to say so rarely, but but I feel We're not truly embracing the perhaps the violence of the act. And again, without casting judgment of this is for, this is against. But in having these conversations, again, around capital punishment 2000 years ago or capital punishment today, I think it's revealing um the steps, the actions, who is responsible, and what happens to both the um, I don't want to even want to use the word victim, but the the soul being punished, if you will, and what happens to those executing justice and the impact of the death penalty penalty that has on them. And so it then creates that dialogue um around capital punishment and then set in this sort of this revelation of a trial where this again, the the irony of what was once Pontius Pilate, who sentenced, frankly, as historic as history says, you know, an innocent, peaceful man to die upon a cross, he's now in a predicament of defending a man who has nailed three people to a cross um because of his role with this with this law firm. And then it's it's his dawning realization of who he once was. And that sort of cast his fate different than the Judas character. The Judas is this, you know, he he's has this um sort of lifetime after lifetime, this inevitable sort of suicidal trek, um, as opposed to the the pilot character, lifetime after lifetime, it's kind of this cruel dawning realization of his past actions. And so it's through this through this intersection of these very violent crimes in modern day New York, plus sort of some um kind of supplemental supplementary characters that kind of paint just a more vivid picture of modern-day New York, where you're bringing in uh meth addiction, heroin addiction that has to do with just really difficult um sort of trench lives, and and and and what does that mean and and how we cast judgment on those lives as well.

Capital Punishment Then And Now

David 24:04

And those things you just listed really uh most laws don't uh list them as as true legal mitigators, but we know in society we look at it as a mitigator. Would you agree? For sure. That we Yeah, that we we look at that. Because I I think that uh in most cases that uh and again, it's it's not amazing, but laws a lot of times really don't allow all the things. Uh you know, you can't go in and claim um it's demon-possessed, and even if you were demon-possessed, but it's not going to happen. But jurors, the people that sit in judgment in these cases, uh inevitably want to know that. And and and that's why it does come up in trial, is that it's a mitigator. It's uh and it's so prevalent in our society, right? I mean, it's this I I'll tell people all the time there's very few people or families that that I've ever met that are immune to any of that stuff happening inside their family. Uh you made a good point that I've always thought about too, is that when you look at uh when we talk about the the the people involved in in uh, for example, in the credit in the concept of the crucifixion, is that the person that passes judgment and the person that receives the judgment is uh an interesting thing I've always thought about is the person that actually does the the execution, which is lack of a better word, a middle man or middle person. Um these days it would be whoever flips the switch that activates the plunger on other chemicals or charges the chair with electricity. And back in the day, somebody, somebody, a soldier, just nailed people to crosses. Um does your book start to entertain any of that paradox? Because that that's a whole nother.

Daniel Grace 25:39

Absolutely. So there's a scene, there's sort of the prologue is set back in ancient times, and it's this initial encounter between Judas and Pilate. But there's also this, it also sort of captures this moment on a hill of an old Roman centurion called Longinus, um, who is surrounded by these other younger centurions who who they also played this role in erecting the wood and hammering in the nails. And, you know, what was their role to that actual execution, but also how has history cast them? And I was also fascinated with the role, you know, of the church in modern-day capital punishment and going down the path of viaticums and kind of these standard practices that I found fascinating that are that are almost standard, and it's not legal procedure, it's it's it's a standard almost protocol of this moment of reconciliation with a God. Um, and it's interesting, you know, these these moments of reconciliation, the church has very particular rules that when it happens in a hospital or if it happens on a battlefield with an impending death, you know, there's a rotation of three specific viaticums. But when it comes to a capital punishment case, it's just the last of these third rites, it's just sort of a passage to the to the next to the next place. Um so even I found the the church's relationship with capital punishment, which it's a parallel history as well. And it's also a very dark, bloody parallel history, that of the church and and capital punishment. And yet, most, if not all, religions their their moment of conception starts with a violent execution. And so it's a it's you know, to me, discomfort and and an uncomfortable conversation around around the conversation of spirituality and salvation being really integrated, um dependent on, you know, a you know, not just death, but you know, and this is again, whether it's whether it's mythology or uh, you know, in modern day religions, um, these are all very violent deaths. And and so part of my perspective, again, coming from a from a from a faith-affirmative perspective, was also you know, to me that also suggests uh the level of sacrifice is something that so much stronger and more moving than I had ever considered. Um and so it's um it's it's it's a tandem history for sure.

Church Rituals Executioners And Juries

David 28:12

For sure. Uh but and and again, usually uh just to let you know uh on the other side of it, if you if you do bring something into the system and uh uh capital punishments on the table, is that uh uh uh a lot of the faiths have processes for assisting in the defense and offering people to come testify during at least a sentencing hearing, right? They uh and I I witnessed that and watched that. So there's I I think you have the protocols for the uh for the uh the the ability to cleanse a soul, but you're also they also have some pretty strong protocols to enact on that. At some point I've thought about doing and I'm just gonna throw this out right now, and I think the listeners and watchers will be interested, but I've I've thought lately about crafting a small panel piece on the death penalty, not anybody from the production side offering opinion, uh, but to bring that up and get the opinions of our listeners and watchers. It like you said, thin ice is kind of a delicate thing. So if I do that, I'm just gonna make an invitation right now, if you don't mind to maybe consider you coming in and being a part of the phone.

Daniel Grace 29:15

I would jump at the opportunity.

David 29:17

Yeah, I it it's uh so I've I'm just gonna throw that out there now so that I've sort of made halfway a commitment to our audience, so it's probably gonna happen now. So unless I take that on a post-editing, which I won't. But it's uh but yeah, it's uh it it's a it's a fascinating thing. So continue, take us into it to the depth that you want to and the places you want to to continue with with this story.

Daniel Grace 29:38

Yeah, so so um you know, I should say I'm I'm I'm not an attorney, I happen to be married to one, um, but you know, a lot of my research was looking at sort of the legal procedure of a of a of a uh a capital crime case. And, you know, so there's sort of the obvious parallels of you know that you can't help, but all of a sudden the light bulb goes off when you start considering kind of the just the notion and the collective body of a jury being 12 souls, and you go back to the apostles of 12 apostles and you start looking at sort of just the relationship of these dozen castes of characters throughout history, not in just these two episodes. And there's something, there is something mystical about that that jury of 12, you know, whose roots predate even the 12 apostles and disciples. And I just found that kind of an eye-opening that has to be more than a coincidence. Um, but again, you start looking at sort of the the historical precedent, especially when it relates to, and again, a taboo word when we're talking about you know true crime or any crime for that matter, is sort of the presence of evil, right? And you talk you looking at kind of whether it's in 15th century England, whether it's in 7th century Rome, whether it's you know 1 A.D. in Judea, the protocol around this presence of an external force, right? And if you even look at the definition of evil today, this this cosmic bane force that releases one from sort of palpable responsibility is it's fascinating. And so yet when it comes to the legality and the reality of, especially in in capital punishment cases, it's you know, again, a line from the book. It's sort of it's saved for the legends.

Where To Hear More And Subscribe

Wendy 31:24

Hey, you know there's more to the story, so go download the next episode like the true crime fan that you are.

David 31:31

The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolicepodcast.com, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters, and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store, where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast Swag. We are also on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are here impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars in a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop. And please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.