In the Wake of Golgotha with Daniel Grace | Part 2 of 2

Justice is easy to talk about until you have to define what it looks like outside a courtroom. David sits down with author Daniel Mark Grace to wrestle with the questions true crime always circles: what do we mean when we call something evil, who carries the burden of judgment, and how does a society decide it has the right to take a human life?

We dig into the uncomfortable overlap of law and religion, especially in capital punishment cases where moral belief, legal precedent, and human emotion all show up in the same room. We talk about why criminal defense attorneys matter even when the crime is monstrous, and why “fair process” is a heavy promise for jurors, investigators, and families. Along the way, we challenge the urge to flatten violent crimes into simple narratives, because context is often the part that hurts to look at.

Grace also walks us through the ideas behind his novel In the Wake of Golgotha, a story that reimagines Pontius Pilate and Judas Iscariot in modern-day New York City. From Golgotha to Central Park, the book uses guilt, ambition, weakness, addiction, and a personified darkness to ask whether people are driven by fate or choice and whether anyone gets a second chance after an unforgivable act.

If you care about true crime storytelling, the death penalty debate, and the deeper psychology of good and evil, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share this episode with a friend, and leave a review so more listeners can find the show.

Order your copy of In The Wake of Golgotha today!

https://www.amazon.com/Wake-Golgotha-Daniel-Grace/dp/B0FY3WCZWR/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

That's ultimately what this story is about, and I think that's ultimately what any and all of our story is about. And so justice can come in a lot of different ways, shapes, and forms. And it doesn't mean it's wearing a badge or he finds it in a courtroom. Justice can be found in a quiet moment in a church. It can be found on top of a hill. It can also be found in deep, dark alleys. And so justice is it's an interesting pursuit.

Wendy 0:26

Morning. The podcast you're about to listen to may contain graphic descriptions of violent assaults, murder, and adult language. Listener discretion is advised.

Evil As A Legal Problem

Defending The Unforgivable

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Right. And you talk looking at kind of whether it's in 15th century England, whether it's in 7th century Rome, whether it's, you know, 1 A.D. in Judea, the protocol around this presence of an external force, right? And if you even look at the definition of evil today, this cosmic bane force that releases one from sort of palpable responsibility is it's fascinating. And so yet when it comes to the legality and the reality of, especially in capital punishment cases, it's, you know, again, a line from the book, it's sort of it's saved for the legends, right? And I just sort of found that. And yet, legally, we've found ways to account for it, and whether that's through autonomism as an unlikely defense play. And again, this plays a role in the book, too, because I have this character who's been sort of overcome by this historical threat. And the point is to get Judas and Pilate back in the ring. And the backstory there is so this dark demonic force has another crack at getting back in the tomb where the door was left open, kind of this fallen angel. This is this is his his opportunity to get back up. And so, you know, he's sort of this puppeteer in using this violent crime to get Pilate and Judas back in the ring. So he has a shot back upstairs, if you will. But what's so fascinating to me, again, is the delicate dance between the law and religion. Um so it's not just, you know, wars and religion and geopolitics and religion, um, but in the courtroom. You know, I talk about sort of the elephant in the courtroom. Um, and and oftentimes it's it's religion. It's that it's that that moral conflict of good and evil that you know we all delicately dance around. And I I found that fascinating. And that's something which I intentionally um I wanted to kind of ground it in what I hope to be um sort of responsible and realistic sort of legal precedent and and legal procedure, um, because it's an awkward, delicate dance. And putting myself in the shoes of a criminal defense attorney who is being, for lack of a better word, sort of puppeteered and forced to defend an unimaginably violent crime, how the orchestration of good and evil to distract or deper depersuade a jury. Um so it's just just the the dance of um law and religion, again, is something that I think we often there's a you know, again, separation of church and state. Um but frankly, it's impossible to separate it. You look at, and it's not just in uh the United States, right? It's in and it's not just in Western Europe. It's in it's in every country across the globe, um, uh maybe except a few in in Asia. But this the intertwined notion um when it comes to crime and punishment of law and religion, despite our best efforts to separate the two, um, seems to be an impossible task.

David 4:12

Aaron Powell Yeah, I and it you make a good point too, because uh and some people don't like the feel of this, but I'm gonna say it is that most of our cultures and societies and civilizations were were brought up it um under some kind of a religious pretext to begin with. Therefore the moral codes and the laws that were established were usually related back to that. And uh there's another huge debate on the other side of that, but I think that's true. And you made a good point about the defense attorney thing, because a lot of people they'll see somebody defend a Charles Manson or a Jeffrey Dahmer, and uh they'll be like, How can you do that? And and uh my my perspective has always been after meeting several of them, there's a huge difference with uh uh affirming the behavior of another individual and making sure that their constitutional rights are protected. And that's you know, because they uh the the friends of mine that have done defense cases, uh either ones that I was involved in or other ones on heinous acts, they carry that weight. And uh and what but they their their mission really is more mechanical in the idea of making sure that uh the process is fair. And that in turn, Daniel, leads back to whether or not people as a juror or a decision maker can say, in this case, we are opting to take a human life. It it's it's it's simple, but it's complex. So you've you you've named you you've hit so many important topics on this that resonate with me.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

And and I think it's that notion of again, there is a cast of characters that play a pivotal role and that will be eternally impacted by any crime. Okay, so let's let you know, you can take, and in this case, whether it's Christ or whether it's a victim, whoever it is, whether it's someone you know getting murdered today in modern day New York City, there is an ecosystem around this event and an aftermath that again, so sort of part of my philosophy is again, it's that guilt and it's that sorrow, um, and it's that sacrifice and it's that burden that that that we carry forward. And the question is, you know, how do we how do we dance with that in in our everyday life? Um also knowing, you know, oftentimes when it comes to notorious criminal cases, um, there are these cast of characters, you know, and and whether it's through today in social media, whether it's through traditional media, whether it's through history, whether it's through art, you know, who who absolutely are are cast a certain way and are damned for their role, um for better or for worse. Um and so it's a it's a you know, if you look at even through Renaissance art, the way you know the trial of Christ is is is portrayed on canvas or on frescoes and you know ceilings in Rome and Florence and Milan and these the most beautiful cathedrals in the world, um what's so fascinating about that, there's something you know so beautifully spiritual, and it's these, you know, these incredible moments of yes, there's turmoil, and yes, that there's there's pain. But when you you really start looking at, and again, I kind of slip into this sort of a perspective of this this sort of convenient narrative, and like all history, history, you know, history is written by the victors, um all of a sudden you start getting a sense of you know, not only are there two sides to every soul and every person, but there's two sides to every story. Um and I think especially when you're dealing with capital punishment, to even remotely have an opinion or to have a conversation, we must individually, collectively, my perspective is we must consider the two sides to every story. And I think too often we come into the conversation about capital punishment in particular with a predetermined sort of belief notion that is typically prescribed by our religious faith. And you know, while that that you know there's a lot of merit in that, I think it's important, and I'm asking the question in this book, um consider both sides. That's all. Um consider who who cast judgment, consider if you're casting judgment, um, and consider if you're doing it responsibly, is is kind of the big picture point of it all.

David 8:31

Yeah, that's why it sounds fascinating too. Yeah, it's just so I again I th I think uh so many people I don't think they understand the breadth of the conversation, right? And and again, you will find that the people will move closer to accepting capital punishment commensurate with the how they view the crime, right? The uh the how how caustic the crime was, or you used uh a a term earlier too that his I've been passionate about is the word evil, is the the existence of evil. And uh uh we could have a whole other discussion probably on that too. But it's interesting. I tell people all the time that uh I think we use the word tragic sometimes and what we meant was evil. And I mean there's a there's a big difference in those two. And and I think uh in my personal experience, and and it there's other books I'm considering writing as well, because I really like the I like I like doing that. But um I I just I think that after a long time I finally registered in my brain what I what I think the premise of evil is with narcissism and and things like that, that being the center of the universe, uh which I I think we see a lot biblically too when we when we see that described as well. Um go keep going with your storyline though, because I really want the people don't give the book away. This is not an audiobook. Exactly. You gotta buy the book, right? I mean, uh I just did an interview with mine and and the and the host was the same way. She goes, We're not gonna read the book to you today, but it it uh but uh yeah, keep going with where how how does uh this flow and and how do you continue to make those reference stops between the past.

Golgotha Reimagined In New York

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Exactly. And to and to, you know, just to carry just to pick up a point you were just talking about sort of this suggestion of evil, um, you know, to me, this this moment on a hill, 2,000 years ago atop Golgotha was was, you know, in many ways this tale of destroying, executing true goodness, um, which enabled its rise. Um but the sort of in many ways, the premise and how it translates to modern day New York is is sort of embracing the duality of goodness and where there is an ultimate good, therein must lie sort of the binary opposite, right, of evil. And so how I've crafted that into the tale is sort of this shadow throughout history that catches up to these characters and kind of this personification of evil. Um, and and because that's that's humanity's history, this is humanity's future, it's our dance with good and evil, you know, and that's it's almost as simple as that, right? And so there are these moments and times where these two forces come together. And so in creating um sort of this this passage through history, this moment um where I had sort of the luxury, because so little is known about the backstory about Pilate and the backstory of Judas, to be able to sort of craft their backstory, to craft their intent, to craft their weakness, to craft their ambition, um, to craft their rage, even that brought them to this enablement of crucifixion. Um and it's that backstory which informs their modern-day characters, and that's what forms who they are, because ultimately it's the same soul, and so essentially it's the same struggle 2,000 years later. Um, and so you know, this the story unfolds um through this sort of this this evil character who's been overwhelmed by this historical force that sort of consumes various souls throughout the course of history. And there's a moment, and again, it's kind of just referred through through this kind of glance back to history, um uh uh at the trial of Christ, and and kind of when this shadow overwhelms sort of who ultimately became freed, this character of Barabbas. And so it's sort of the suggestion of you know, he's also played a role in enabling Christ's crucifixion because this was this was the fallen angel's opportunity to, you know, again, it was sort of this back door back into heaven to to reclaim his sort of place. And that, you know, that kind of draws the broader narrative. Um, and so this darker force is personified by the character who is an MRI technician who kind of lives most of his life in sort of the bowels of a hospital, Mount Sinai Hospital in modern-day New York City. Um, and it's all of a sudden his awakening with and being sort of impregnated with this need and this mission to crucify. And again, the role being to bring uh to sort of force this attorney character, Peter Pfeiffer, to uh defend him and just sort of through their various um sort of relationships and involvements with addiction um and sort of sandboxes of addiction, uh kind of that's how these two characters come together. And it's ultimately this, as I say, that this intersection where they come to terms with their past. And it's sort of an existentialist play on, you know, was it was it choice, was it fate, who, you know, only they can unburden themselves. And it's really through the lens of each other that they have this moment, and obviously I'm not gonna no spoilers here, um, but it's this sort of culmination, you know, atop a atop a different hill in Central Park in New York City, 2,000 years later, with a dead tree, um, similar to the one of which Judas hung himself in the shadow of Golgotha, this sort of full circle moment that can can can either further entrap them or release them from their shared damnation andor fate.

Fallen Angel Stories In Pop Culture

David 14:17

Can I interject something? Because I'm my mind's racing when you're talking. When you were talking about uh fallen angels and the elusive backdoor to return to heaven, uh think for a minute how many major motion pictures in the last several decades Daniel have been made, and that's the underlying theme. Have you thought about that before?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

So again, you know, it's it's it's you know, you can go back to Star Wars. It's the same thing, right? And and and it's every great story. And it's every great story, and you know, you go back to Shakespeare, you can go, you know, back before then. This is, you know, this is this is that tango that that happens, you know, within all of us, or if your faith takes it a different perspective, it's happening all around us. You can also, it's very clear, we can turn on the news right now, we can switch channels, and we will see it play out on the news too. We're still dancing with these um kind of this uncomfortable dance of who's God, whose rights, um, sort of overwhelm one another. And so, you know, this is the most unoriginal story there is. I just wanted to take a slightly unique perspective at it.

David 15:28

Oh, it's it's not it's nowhere near unoriginal. I was just commenting on the idea that I think uh maybe that's part of our collective consciousness over the years is that uh how bad can we screw up before we just don't get a shot? You know, and uh I know that Christopher Walken and Keanu Reeves have done very well just playing those roles themselves in different movies. And uh and and and I'm always looking for that depth of that, of that there we go, the human nature of like uh, you know, how many trips to the well do I get the end? I mean it's so it I think that your the way your context and putting that together is is is so different. Uh uh hopefully somebody looks at you for a screenplay. Well, hopefully. I mean it's uh Yeah, exactly. I mean it it's uh it every now and then you run out of a piece of of art, as I call it. I read things all the time, and uh I've got one that uh uh I have just in front of yours that I'm working on on an interview that we just did, and uh I'm looking at it and and let me just say this that in the past several years, the emotion picture industry, in my humble opinion, has really been awful and grasping at straws and reeds to come up with something, and it's like uh I just don't think they're in my opinion, I don't think they're reaching right now far enough. They're looking at old formulas and uh like how many how many songs can I play in this movie that the parents might like better than the kids do?

SPEAKER_01 16:48

I think we're we're we're kind of at a point now broad based in entertainment um where sort of the lowest common denominator is not to offend. And so it's it's we're we're taking a very conservative approach to even storytelling, um, that I think, and you know, and then what makes you know there are some you know remarkable pieces out there in you know in in film and television and and music, and the ones that break through are those, you know, these bold statements. Um but but to your to your point about this, you know, this this battle, I mean, you know, I I'll be the first to say I was you know inspired you know by the likes of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. To me, that's the same story. Um, whether we're talking about Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, this is to me the same story of Pilate and Judas. I see, you know, these these these parallels or you know, it's it's a unique story. And yet, you know, this notion of a sympathetic view of say Judas the Scariot, you know, it's certainly not an original thought, right? And I was also very much inspired by Nikos Cousin Zakis The Last Temptation of Christ. You see this tale play out in pop culture with you know Andrew Lloyd Weber's Jesus Christ superstar. So there's a there's an appetite for sort of this reimagining of Judas, not only from an entertainment perspective, but I think from a kind of an intellectual perspective that just sort of says, wait a minute, if if if if the end goal was the fulfillment on of the scriptures, again, somebody had to erect the wood, somebody had to nail in the nails, and somebody had to put the man atop the hill upon the cross, um, yet alone take him down. And and we've so conveniently just, you know, a different term, you know, figuratively speaking, we've crucified those characters. Um, and I find it fascinating.

David 18:33

I just I think again, that's what I was talking about earlier, and uh uh is is the idea that everything was from a divine plan and prophesized. And and so uh it exactly everybody that had a role in that, no matter how we want to cast them in our minds, uh all of that had to happen for something that most of us that are people that are of faith would argue was a fantastic thing. Absolutely. And that yeah and that comes again, it it shoots back into current time is uh uh the piano player and the and the music, right? And and who uh uh do we sometimes uh hold people more accountable than they should be, not in a divine sense, but I keep I keep getting back to the idea of like, for example, um as a detective, if you participate in a case and uh uh the the death penalties in your legislation and it's uh if the aggravators are met for that, you uh you you do wrestle a little bit on and off about that. It it will take you theologically and religiously and spiritually into into a conversation with yourself about that. But at the same time, you're you're functioning in where society's at today. And then you look at the the people that actually the executioners and the people that are are tasked with that, you know, and the firing squads, I think, in the states that do those now that some people have a round and a gun, some don't. So there's this opportunity to maybe me, maybe not me. Right. It's uh but in the end, I think when we talked about and when we started about how this your story is is so much part of the true crime community, it's that search for what is bad, what is good, what does that look like? What does it what makes people tick? Right for sure. I uh uh did an interview a while back and and uh somebody said I think I think I've and they were joking, I think I got a problem because I'm fascinated with serial killers. And I said, No, you're not sick, it's it's curiosity. Now, if you get Ted Bundy's indenture marks tattooed on your forearm, that that's a different story. And uh so I think that's why I'm excited about about your project and your book is it's it's another way of wrestling with those big questions that we have.

Judgment Culture And Religious Violence

SPEAKER_01 20:46

For sure. And I think as it as it relates to crime, you know, the perspective to me is interesting that especially for those who who are filled and fueled with religion, um religion is violence. And perhaps that same violence exists in all of us. Um and it's again, it's that question of that wrestle with what do we do with that? And and and then when we cast judgment on others, you know, we need to be careful, right? And I'm not saying we have we all have the potential to enact you know this, you know, the violence that that we often that that we are prosecuting. I'm just saying that you know these are we have a a history of religious violence um that's just worth considering. You know, you if you just do the numbers in the last millennia alone, you know, over you know, almost 500 million people um you know killed in the name of God and Allah and Buddha and Thor and Karma and every other God. And it's really it's the driving force of most, if not all, wars on the planet. And so again, we Without judgment, it's a question of we just need to acknowledge this parallel tango.

David 22:06

Maybe before it's too late, Daniel. And this is a comment right now, today, especially with the advent of the internet, which might have been with social media, might have been of the most evil things perpetrated in the modern world. But look at when you talk about judgment right now, it's it's crazy. Not even a willingness to look at two sides, no empathy, no uh I've always said it, no restraint at all, right? We've got people that are making judgment calls on things and uh with without no moral guidance to it at all about the impact of what that is. And and when you pass judgment on somebody in social media, that it's not the death penalty, but emotionally what we're doing to people, and emotionally what we're doing, and and sometimes they use the word canceling. It's what a hot topic that is relevant to the about when do we judge, should we judge, are we authorized to judge? Well, do we understand the the uh the ramifications of judging and uh and and what uh what we end up we think I think I call it a feigned moral imperative that people believe they have uh the ability to do that. And the reality of it is is it's all it's usually almost always destructive. For sure. It's just almost always destructive.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

For sure. And and you know, there's you know, there's characters in the book that the that struggle some fatally, you know, with with drug addiction, with substance abuse. You know, so it's not just a judgment we cast that results in a capital punishment, it's the judgment that we cast when we step over someone, you know, slumped, sitting against a fire hydrant on a street corner, right? And I have sort of this line in the book. And when it comes to bathing judgment, there's sort of this almost this adage of, you know, just just pay the ferryman. And and you know, it's every that that road to judgment is the same. It's just only the currency differs, right? And so again, it's it's not just these big heady questions of capital punishment um and and execution of crucifixion. It's also walking down the street in whatever town or city you happen to live in. And and not only is it about the casting and the passing of the judgment, but then it's also taking a look at what the burden and the impact of that cast judgment does on upon the one who receives it, right? And there may be many times where it's 100% warranted. So again, I'm I'm not casting judgment on casting judgment. Um it's just that it's just a it's a question of just you know consider that transaction because it is a transaction, right? Judgment is not a one, it's not a one-way tree. So when when judgment is cast, you are passing that judgment and that burden. And again, there's a there's there's a character in the book who who uh who was you know in an an inch away to his own execution um and was had been been granted clemency on the eve of his execution, he kind of brings this Peter Pfeiffer character into this journey of capital punishment. And his whole point is you know, it's about you know, carry the burden carefully. And it's it's it's be ignorant of the crime, be ignorant of the punishment, but be aware of the burden. And again, for better or for worse. And so I think it's that it's that passage of um again, that that two sides to every story. Um and then at least make an informed decision as opposed to judgment. There's a very there's a big difference. And I think the same is true with when you're considering the act of crucifixion, when you're considering a cross dangling next to your heart. Consider the reality of the event. You know, again, to me, I found it faith-affirming. Um, but again, I think there's just a sense of let's not whitewash our own history and our own religion and the violence and the addiction and the struggle um that's ever present you know on both tracks. Um and at very least, it's fascinating.

Pilate Judas And The Weight

David 26:04

It is. It it's uh again, I think uh the core thing is is it uh tying us back into the genre that I entered into is that uh I think the core thing in Daniel is is the uh the the big question of good and evil, uh repentance or uh in it or can I be repent? And I think that that that's what the main focus is that most people they look at somebody, and again here let's take it back to Pontius Pilate and Judas, the why. You know, I again uh what uh you know, people look and say, I'd never do that. And they probably wouldn't do that. So then the next thing we're curious about is why they would do that. And then enter your characters in your book. I'm sure that that's that the framework on it sounds like those are two very interesting people to look at at their work.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

For sure. Because again, that there's that convenient narrative um that's kind of like a it's it's almost a Calvinistic that the theologian John Calvin, sort of this notion of they were, you know, these sort of seeds planted by Lucifer that sort of led them astray to, you know, essentially condemn Christ, right? But yet that's also then contradictory to the fulfillment of the scriptures. Um so then is all of a sudden, if you take that perspective, you know, then is you know, Lucifer in whatever way, shape, or form that character might be, you know, well then is is that force the enabler? Because that's confusing. Um and so again, I found taking this perspective of them being these tormented mortals. And again, if you're taking the approach that you know they helped enable, certainly from the Judas perspective, you know, I might pose the question of, you know, who really had the harder job? And in Judas's case, to to knowingly betray his his brother and his master and his teacher, the the heart and the strength that that would take is is is you know beyond confounding. Um and yet to be then forever damned by that sacrifice is fascinating. Um and then from the from Pilate's, you know, again, he's sort of synonymous with uh with weakness and ambition. Um and it's a question of, you know, again, uh his role was so specific, and he did grant the people a choice. You know, there are certain, there are very few factual truths on record, and and one of the very few ones are that, you know, the the high priest Caiaphas um ultimately directed Pilate not because he was weak to crucify Christ, because Caiaphas, as a high priest of the Jews, did not have the legal authority to put a fellow Jew to death. Um and so Pilate was granted that passage, um, and he was the one who actively sought the people's choice. He took it to a broader jury. And again, this is not a question of he should be praised for that, but it's a it's a wild irony that that he too um has become damned by his perceived weakness. Um and it's just a fascinating struggle what happened in his aftermath. And and you know, Judas's aftermath is convenient. It's a it's a it's a suicide of an by an acacia tree at the foot of Golgotha with with 30 shekels at his feet. And and and Pilate was simply muted after this moment on a hill. Um, and yet, you know, you you you wonder um what that real historical account truly was. And and frankly, we'll never know. And so my uh my intention is not to kind of create you know those very next steps. It's really just to paint this hill and this tree in in modern day New York under the confines of daily contemporary struggles and law um and crime and punishment, and see how the cards fall.

David 29:52

One of the things that I found, and I think we see, but I did see it. I was in a room with people, is I found very few people that I dealt with that took a human life, very few had a capacity to actually carry the guilt that you and I would. Even if you and I had to do it in self-defense or defense of a family member, our lives would probably be on a destructive path after that. And you go to the other far end of the spectrum, as a lot of people that we dealt with, they don't have that capacity or they probably never would have. But then you look at Judas, um, I don't think guilt would be a strong enough word. Uh right. I and and uh the the breadth of that and the weight of that um having to do the thing that for the fulfillment of scripture, as you said, uh redefines redefines guilt. Uh uh Pontius Pilate, you know, I I teach uh I teach leadership. Uh that's my one of my side hustles when I travel. And uh and and it what's sort of registering there in modern times too is is that how many times a leader doesn't stand by their own personal convictions, morals, and ethics and allows themselves to be pushed from the outside, and then we get an undesirable outcome usually. I mean, it's it's usually uh uh uh a bastardization of democracy or a republic, even at some point. But that resonated with me right there. And usually once a leader fails to to make the right decision standing on their ethical norms is that they're cast. I mean, that's just that's just the way it is. In the world of policing, trust me, it uh one of the in the world of policing, one of the one of the best ways to lose anything like a reputation or respect is is to uh is to fall outside of the value system that we all expect. And I mean all of this on legitimate ethical value systems. I'm not talking about the the dark side that we talk about. So interesting.

Second Chances And Lost Futures

SPEAKER_01 31:42

And if you look at this through the lens of what's happening, you know, again, not just geopolitically, um, but on the streets of the United States today. And and what I found fascinating is regardless of what side of the very divisive political spectrum we all stand, you know, again, these same notions, not only of crime and punishment, but to your point about Pilate, about leadership, you know, the compliciteness of silence, for instance. And again, this isn't about casting judgment about who's doing what right now, but these same issues we are absolutely watching unfold daily on our streets. And I just, again, I think it's an interesting conversation around, you know, again, sacrifice um and strength as opposed to silence um and ambition and weakness. Um, and you know, there's also this notion of we are fallible, we do make mistakes. And ultimately, you know, this story, this one in my hand, um it's ultimately a story of second chances. And perhaps this notion of we all, historical or otherwise, deserve a shot at sec at a second chance. And so, you know, it's it it in many ways, it's as it's as simple as that. I'm I'm a firm believer in second chances because you know, we can we can whether we started in Eden or otherwise, right? This is a story of gardens. And there's a again a line in the book about you know this this dance of uh of good and evil from you know Eden to Gethsemane to Golgotha to Central Park. You know, we're we're all still dancing and we're all falling in whatever garden we're in. It's just a question of how do we get up.

David 33:18

I I think we could all agree, and I would be the first one to admit that my life at 64, soon to be 65 years old, has consisted of a life of second chances, one over the other. Right. It and because that's the human condition, literality of who we are. Uh we always talk about one of the uh one of the the horrible things about the act of murder, uh regardless of when it's occurred, but it's in today's world too, is uh when when somebody is murdered that is struggling with things here we go, uh drug addiction, any kind of a thing, a lifestyle that we wouldn't agree with or high risk factors and everything, there's some people in in communities, I think, in societies that second class those people and maybe don't care, but I've always said that when you take the life of somebody, even if, for example, they're a raging drug addict, and maybe they've been hospitalized seven times on narcand back and forth, and but they're still alive up until the moment somebody takes that. And what they do is they take away the opportunity for grace and that second chance. Because we've all met people who second chance their way successfully out of lifestyles in advanced form. Sure. And that's one of the the the big when you talk about the crime of what murder really is, is that it doesn't just rob a loved one or a friend, it robs that person of the potential of what their life might have looked like had they been allowed to live. So fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

You know, it's interesting. There is a I cited some historical precedent about um, you know, for instance, the last case before the moratorium in in in the state of New York, the last case I think it was in 1964 of electrocution of from old Sparky at Sing Sing. And it was it was a gentleman called Eddie Lee Mays. Um, but it ultimately just talking about sort of the truly atomic, but you know, the atomic butterfly effect of a of a of a of a single 38, you know, 38 caliber bullet that that has. And it's you know, this just sort of transcends just those caught in the moment. And and yet to your point, you know, any crime, especially a capital one, you know, context is still king. Um and again, I think sometimes the bigger the story, the quicker we sort of two-dimensionalize it. And so again, whether it's religion and whether it's a crucifixion on a hill 2,000 years ago, or it's a you know, a serial killer's sort of bloody path through, you know, Cincinnati, Chicago, you know, you you name it, whatever city it might be, um, there's just we all sort of strive to neatly package that because you know, context can be very uncomfortable. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Where To Get The Book

David 35:52

It usually is. It if we're if we're honest and vulnerable about the context, we you know, if we're really clear on it, if we if we actually if everybody decides to get in the deep end of the pool, we all swim a little bit. For sure. So you know, but everybody nobody can be in the kitty pool and be in the shallow end when you have these conversations. For sure. You've all we've all even with swimmies, even with swimmies, we all got to be down there in the in the deep end of the pool. Exactly. Well, Daniel, I can't thank you enough. Again, I'm sorry Wendy wasn't here, she'd be intrigued. And I'm got a feeling that between the two of us we'll probably dog ear your book quite readily. I I do know that uh most of our audience, if they think like me and Wendy do, that this is definitely something to to run and get. And uh the uh the one of the things about the true crime world that it's missing sometimes is uh an expression of other ideas and content and different channels to find this thing and seek this thing we call justice and identify this thing called evil. And I'm a big believer if we can get those two, then we have a clearer picture of what good is. So uh if you if before we tap out, if you want to make sure people understand what the book looks like, what it's called, and where can people get your sure and and just to to put a put a ribbon on your point, you know, amen to the pursuit of justice, right?

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Because that's that's ultimately what this story is about, and I think that's ultimately what any and all of our story is about. And so justice can come in a lot of different ways, shapes, and forms. And it doesn't mean it's wearing a badge or you find it in a courtroom. Justice can be found in a quiet moment in a church, it can be found on top of a hill, um, it can also be found in deep, dark alleys. And so justice is is it's an interesting pursuit. So again, the book In the Wake of Golgotha, published by by Kohler Books, um, it's out now, widely available in bookstores, online. Uh the audio books are uh have just been just been released on on Audible and Spotify and all that great stuff. Um and so you know, would would love to engage with your viewers with with questions and comments. And you know, this is all about provoking a conversation. Um and if if anybody wants to sort of reach me or reach out to me, I I can be found through my website, danielmarkgrace.com, um, or through social media, primarily Instagram at Daniel Markgrace. Um and you know, again, I'm this is this is about uh starting a uh uh uh a little bit of a controversial conversation. Um and so I'm I'm I look forward to any and all of them.

David 38:24

I think our audience are critical thinkers wide and far, so they'll be into it. So thanks again. And uh and again, uh it them give you some time to put it together, and I'd love to have you panel up with some friends of mine and uh some people, maybe some attorneys, and and just have a discussion about what capital punishment is and and uh not really again, I'm not I don't like weighing in with my opinion too much on that, but I'm interested in other people's opinions on that as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Maybe we can have a lot of people. Exactly. I think part of those conversations will make them interesting. It's not about what's everybody's opinion, it's just about it's about let's having kind of a real intelligent discussion about the act. Um and I, you know, I and so that's what's interesting to me, right? This is not about pontificating my belief for or against, it's just about sort of the and I would imagine where you're coming from too. It's just let's have a realistic conversation about capital punishment. And I think that's what absolutely that's what we lack right now, is just real conversations about any of these significant topics. So let's do it.

David 39:26

I'll I'll leave it with what you said. What we lack in our world right now is both sides of the story. That's what we lack. There's Ari. Well, thank you again. Have a great afternoon, and hopefully we'll be speaking to you. We sure look forward to it.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

Thanks, David.

David 39:39

Thank you, David.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

Bye-bye.

David 39:43

The Murder Police Podcast is hosted by Wendy and David Lyons and was created to honor the lives of crime victims so their names are never forgotten. It is produced, recorded, and edited by David Lyons. The Murder Police Podcast can be found on your favorite Apple or Android podcast platform, as well as at MurderPolice Podcast.com, where you will find show notes, transcripts, information about our presenters, and a link to the official Murder Police Podcast merch store, where you can purchase a huge variety of Murder Police Podcast swag. We are also on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, which is closed caption for those that are here impaired. Just search for the Murder Police Podcast and you will find us. If you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe for more and give us five stars in a written review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your podcast. Make sure you set your player to automatically download new episodes so you get the new ones as soon as they drop. And please tell your friends. Lock it down, Judy.