Triple Bottom Line
Leading Better with Better Presentations
Ryan Warriner, professor, keynote speaker, communications consultant, and author of The Effective Presenter: The Winning Formula for Business Communication. With more than a decade of professional speaking, Ryan has mastered the art and science of presenting. He's developed a compassionate, strategic, highly effective approach that connects people to story and better outcomes. Listen in and come away with some systematic approachs on how to become a better, more confident, presenter. https://www.professionalpresentationservices.com
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Ryan Warriner, professor, keynote speaker, communications consultant, and author of The Effective Presenter: The Winning Formula for Business Communication. With more than a decade of professional speaking, Ryan has mastered the art and science of presenting. He's developed a compassionate, strategic, highly effective approach that connects people to story and better outcomes. Listen in and come away with some systematic approachs on how to become a better, more confident, presenter. https://www.professionalpresentationservices.com
See our private video lessons, join our mastermind and see how our bots profit in bull/bear markets.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
Triple Bottom Line | Episode 16 | Ryan Warner |
[Upbeat theme music plays]
Female Voice Over
[00:01] Welcome to the Triple Bottom Line, where we reveal how today’s business leaders are reaching a new level of success with a people-planet-profit approach. And here is your host, Taylor Martin!
Taylor Martin
[00:17] Welcome, everyone! I have a very interesting guest today. You may think, why is this on the Triple Bottom Line, but being a leader, a business leader, a thought leader, you’re always selling yourself, selling your ideas, presenting to others and crafting a better skill set, having more tools in your toolbox for presenting better at every time you go and also learning some tricks and trades or being introduced to a presentation specialist like Ryan Warner who we have on today. Ryan is, like I said, a presentation specialist. He’s also a professor of communications. He’s an executive coach and he’s an author, a book called The Effective Presenter: The Winning Formula for Business Communication. Ryan, can you tell our listeners a little bit more about your background and how you got to be where you are? Just fill in some of the gaps.
Ryan Warner
[01:08] Yeah, sure, thank you. Thanks for having me on and thank you for that intro. It was pretty – it was brief yet comprehensive at the same time, so that’s rare to do, Taylor. You captured it.
Taylor Martin
[Laugh] [01:18] Thanks, man!
Ryan Warner
[Laugh] [01:20] Yeah, for sure. I was formally educated as a teacher. I was formally trained to be a teacher. I always wanted to be a teacher and then, along my path, I started to level-up myself and became a professor and started working with more college-aged students, more adults. And along the – around about that same time, I had a number of friends in the Bay area in California pursuing start-up companies and they wanted to go the entrepreneur route. And just by happenstance, I had gone there on vacation. Well, the vacation wasn’t happenstance, but I happened to be there while they were gearing up for an investment pitch.
[02:00] A couple of the companies – actually, a couple of my friends had pitches within the same week. And we were at a breakfast table, and they were discussing the different strategies and how they should structure it, what would be most important for the investors to hear, et cetera. Me being an outspoken, extrovert personality that I am, I shared a few ideas that I had acquired through my research as a professor and through my experiences and they were really receptive. They started picking my brain a little bit. We discussed the best way to achieve the outcome that they wanted and then the language to encode that message that would ring – that would resonate most with the audience, we say it would land best.
[02:41] And ueah, through there, they were both successful, very – I was kind of happy – I was kind of nervous at first because now I thought, okay, I put my reputation on the line here, but they were both successful in acquiring investment. One was actually very successful, got more than they expected. Then, from there, yeah, it just kind of – it might – I guess it kind of snowballed. They referred me to other friends in their network who were also – had startups. They were also entrepreneurs. Then, as the companies grew, then I started working with larger and larger companies and started doing training of conflict resolution, team-building, leadership training for ascending new leaders. I’ve basically been working in tandem both in higher education and corporate for the last nine years now.
Taylor Martin
[03:27] Wow! I can’t imagine. I mean, being a specialist in this kind of niche within a niche, how has it been getting new clients? Are you getting – are people reaching out to you from a different sector or is it all over the place?
Ryan Warner
[03:41] Yeah, that’s an interesting question. I get that a lot, lately. A lot of people have been asking me, especially other trainers and coaches. I think I’m unique. Because I started organically, somewhat organically, and I didn’t really know at the beginning this was going to develop into a business, I just viewed it as me helping out my friends, doing a favor. Then, they have a friend and I said, “Yeah, sure, I’ll help them, too.” Over time, it kind of escalated and snowballed into a business.
[04:07] Yeah, how I acquire clients – initially, it was word of mouth and people had a good experience with me. I gave them – I think what separated me – and at the time, I hadn’t sat in on other trainers' sessions at the time, so I didn’t really know what they were getting elsewhere, I just knew what I was providing. In my opinion, the most – the best that I could provide for them was to give them applicable plug-and-play strategies that were practical and that would actually work for them and give them some confidence, make their life easier, and help them get to the outcome that they wanted. I didn’t want to overload them with a methodology or the the background of it. I was more like, here’s a couple tools you can use. If you’re in this situation, use A; if you’re in this situation, use B.
[04:50] Then, as I got more and more familiar with the different landscapes – and now I’ve done everything from engineering microtechnology all the way to real estate and healthcare sector. Lately, I’ve been working with a lot of law firms and legal. I’ve kind of crossed the breadth of all industries. You learn what skills they use most in their interactions and in their communication. I can kind of tailor my teachings and my training for them so that they get the most out of it, because that’s what’s most important to me. When they’re done with me, I want them to be able to tackle whatever they need to tackle in a better way.
Taylor Martin
[05:26] Yeah, talking about the different market segments, I always feel like, to be a good presenter, you have to really focus on who is your audience, and how much time do I have with them and what are the salient messages they need to walk out of this room understanding or action items that I want them to take.
Ryan Warner
[05:46] Yeah, absolutely. That’s something that we always incorporate. Those are the three, foundations of my professional presentation framework that I’ve created. At that level, those three are often unfortunately overlooked. Many people don’t actually take the time to consider who their audience is and if they do, it’s usually at a surface level of, oh I know who they are or they just assume they’re interested in profit or they’re interested in, like you said, revenue. Sometimes they’re not. Like I said, oftentimes, actually, more often than not, other things are important like optics of the situation, the messaging, being environmentally friendly, for example. There’s usually other priorities at play than just the financial, but it’s easy to fall back on the bottom line, no pun intended, the profit.
Taylor Martin
[Laughs]
Ryan Warner
[Laughs] [06:39] Yeah, so the audience is – when I specialize with audience is – when I speak with people about audience, I always say, I mean, it’s no secret that the audience is the most important stakeholder because really, if you’re not – if you had no audience, you wouldn’t speak. It’s as simple as that, but you need to know them in terms of what they need to hear to do what you want them to do. When we’re talking about persuasion, even if we’re talking about informative presentations, like you need them to be apprised of a situation so that they can act accordingly. There’s always something that needs to get through to them and I kind of explain it – the analogy I use is like a drawbridge of a castle. You need to get the drawbridge down before you can send your message. If you don’t, then it’s just going to bounce off the walls or you’re just going to go under the moat in the water.
[07:29] What I specialize in is getting that drawbridge down for different parties for different respective audiences and then encoding your message so that when it goes through, it’s palatable, it’s understandable, and it’s motivating. They’re stimulated to do it, because that’s the three keys, right? They have to understand what you’re asking. Then they actually have to, you know, think it makes sense to them, and then three they have to want to do it. Those are the three keys to getting someone to be persuaded to your side.
Taylor Martin
[08:00] Persuasion, that’s exactly what I’m talking about. Like I said earlier, you’re always selling. We’re always selling everything. In terms of timing, sometimes we have presentations that are five, ten minutes in a small room, small gathering, and it’s your time with five other presenters and sometimes we have an hour-long time. Could you go through some of the outlines that you would think of in broad text generalization of if you have limited time, really concentrate on this; if you have a medium set of time, focus more on this; and if you have a long set of time, beware of these other things?
Ryan Warner
[08:35] Yeah, for sure. Timing is my favorite – it’s kind of funny you mention this because we hadn’t spoke about this previously. This is not scripted, folks, but timing is my favorite thing to speak about because it’s so overlooked and yet it’s so impactful and one of the components that makes it so overlooked is that people usually say – that’s the last question they ask is how much time they have and the reason because they’re more focused on what do I need to say and then, can I condense it or can I expand it to fit in this time frame. That’s the wrong way to look at it. That strategy is setting you up for failure. That’s not setting you up for success. That’s setting you up for a finish line so that at the end you’re done, right?
[09:15] What you want to do, what the optimal strategy is, is you go back to your desired outcome. What do I need to take away from this? What does a win look like? I always talk to my clients about this. What does a win look like? It varies from situation to situation. In, let’s say, an imaginary situation, you have tiers of wins. I call them levels of wins. What’s your optimal, best case scenario, and that’s if everything goes right?
[09:40] Say you’re in sales and you’re selling vacuum cleaners, for example, and you go to door-to-door in order to sell a vacuum cleaner and not only do you sell one to the resident who lives there, you also sell one to the neighbors on either side and three of her friends who are over visiting for coffee that day, okay? That would be best case scenario. A reasonable success would just be, say, selling the first vacuum cleaner. Then, the bare minimum, what you have to come away with, in that case, it would be presenting yourself as respectful, professional, someone who cares about the customer and the customer leaves thinking that they would do business with you again. If you came and knocked on the door again, they would answer and hear what you have to say. Not this time, they just bought one, but next time they would consider it, right? In that situation, those would be the three levels of win.
[10:26]Those help you to craft the message that you want to send and the amount of time you have helps you prioritize that message. If you only have 30 seconds or if you have 5 minutes, you might not – you can’t reasonably expect someone to make, say, a million-dollar investment, in some cases, in that 5 minutes. It just doesn’t make sense. What does a win look like in that situation? Well, a win looks like getting a follow up meeting for them to say let’s get in touch; I want to elaborate on this later. I’m curious to hear more about this. I want to know how this would work in reality or in this section. That’s a win.
[11:06] Knowing that that’s what you’re aiming for, you’re not going to go into the weeds on the features and functionality and how it was – how it’s different from your competitors, because you simply don’t have the time. Your win changes depending on the amount of time you have. Now, if you have an hour, then you can go through the full scope. Then, you can go through, I want them to consider giving me X amount of investment. What kind of companies have they invested in before, for example, if we’re using an investment pitch for example. Then what types of messages resonate most with them and then how can we shape our information into a message similar to that that they understand, that they can digest easily and they can make a favorable decision.
Taylor Martin
[11:51] Yeah, it makes me think, okay, so let's just focus on time the first thing and okay, we have this amount of time – we have 15 minutes or 5 minutes for this audience – what is the win? I feel like those two questions right there could help lay the groundwork, the outline of what’s going to be said and spoken about. I think that that’s a great way of coming at it first-hand.
Ryan Warner
[12:15] Exactly. It makes so much – sorry to jump into – but it makes very much sense when people think about it, but afterward for people who just attack things and they don’t – they’re used to – they have the action bias and they’re used to just executing and getting things done. I mean, there’s a time for that, don’t get me wrong, but then there’s also a time for actually stepping back and looking at the situation. When you do that and you realize I’m not going to score a $5 million investment in five minutes, that’s just not in the cards. I don’t even know if I’d want to be in business with someone who did that in the first place. When you do that, then it shapes your outlook and with that new outlook, then all of a sudden, you’re not coming away thinking, aw, crap, I didn’t get the investment I wanted or I didn’t perform like I wanted or I have to level-up for next time. No, you’re walking away thinking okay, I knew I was not going to get an investment right off the hop, but at least I presented myself professionally, they know I was prepared, and maybe when they speak to another investor who has a roster or has a history of investing in companies like mine, maybe they’ll come knocking on my door because they know that I’m someone who’s reliable and who’s got their head on straight.
Taylor Martin
[13:28] It makes me think just from a presenter’s – an audience member’s that I know is listening right now and – because I know they’ve done it because I’ve done it. You have a presentation slide deck that’s already set up and you say, oh, it’s going to be – it’s not going to be an hour long; it’s going to be 15 minutes. They’re just going to go in there and they’re going to squeeze that deck down to just try to encapsulate everything on that hour into a 15-minute – not thinking about what we just talked about. What is a win with a 15-minute window with this particular audience? What are you trying to accomplish out of this fifteen minutes as opposed to having a full hour? I could see people doing that a lot.
Ryan Warner
[14:06] Yeah, it’s unfortunate and I’m guilty of it, at first, too, however many years ago. I’m older now, but when I started, yeah, that was the messaging. There was not an actual analytical approach at the time, that I was familiar with anyways, on what does a win look like. When I viewed a presentation when I started, it was just a chore that had to be done. It was, okay I have got to explain something, I have got to make sure I hit these points, and then if I’ve done my part, then okay, the rest is on the audience to find and extract and interpret the value the way I want them to. It wasn’t until I geeked out and got into the science of it and then I reverse-engineered it saying, wait a minute. If I’m presenting to them, if they’re giving me their time, I want them to do something. Then, how do I get them to do that? Well, first, you need to what you want them to do, and that is very highly impacted by the amount of time that you have.
Taylor Martin
[14:59] One thing that bugs me when I see a presentation that just – I just feel like it’s nails on chalkboard – is when I see a presenter with so much copy on their slides and then they’re basically reading it verbatim. My ears almost turn off because I wouldn’t say I’m embarrassed for the person, but I feel like they’re are just so wasting their time because everybody can read that or it maybe it’s not that bad. Maybe they might have a slide deck with lots of words on it and everybody in the audience is trying to read what’s on the slide deck and not listening to them. Can you talk about better balancing of things and how you can go about that?
Ryan Warner
[15:48] Yeah, for sure. Actually, I mentioned in my book – I did mention in one of the chapters the main causes of presentation failures and there was actually an academic study done, both ten years ago in 2012. The study yielded a number of things, a number of causes of presentation failures. The number one cause is information overload, too much text on the slides. It was the number one cause, followed closely by reading from your slides. They go hand-in-hand. This knowledge has been out there for over a decade. People know this yet they persist to do it.
[16:24] When I was curious myself about this question, I kind of conducted my own research and went in and did some qualitative data-seeking. What I found was that it’s a source – it’s two things: number one is that it’s kind of expected that people can put together a good-looking, professional presentation. It’s like you would pick that up as if you’d pick up learning how to jog. You just figure it out along the way. Unfortunately, it’s not that simple. It takes a lot of skill, visual design and then also choosing the right words and how they appear. All of that is important to know. Then, in addition to that, is the comfort. If people feel like when they have – they basically use their slides as cue cards effectively so that they can refer back to them if they lose track of something. In their mind, what’s most important is that they communicate all of the information. They don’t omit anything. That’s a win to them. If I get through this and I make sure I say all my information, then mission accomplished.
[17:24] However, what they don't realize is with the audience, if the drawbridge is up, it doesn’t matter. You can talk at them all day. They’re not getting anything. I have had this conversation many times. It’s kind of like on autopilot now for me. On the other hand, if you have your key points, maybe one or two on each slide, even three on each slide and complemented with a visual and you elaborate on each of those as they appear – I recommend using the animations feature, what have you, in your presentations to make sure they come up one at a time so you can control the tempo. As you’re elaborating on them, your information will spring to mind. You’ll be able to speak to them better. The audience will focus more on you as the center as opposed to your visual aids because remember, they’re there to aid you and support you, not to replace you. Your job is to extend the information, interpret it for them, tell them why it matters, and then move on.
[18:23] Even if you forget a little bit of information, even if you forget half of your information, you’re still going to hit them. You’re still going to land better as opposed to just reading off your slides where they will quickly drain you out and their mind will be thinking, what groceries do I need on my way home?
Taylor Martin
[Laughs]
Ryan Warner
[18:41] Did that package from Amazon come yet? What’s for lunch today? Are they supplying lunch or are we on our own for this? That’s what’s happening in their minds as you’re reading. Then, our second quarter projections are the – that’s going to go out the window.
Taylor Martin
[18:58] Yeah, I feel like also keeping it in a context of a story, trying to bring people into your mindset – look, can we backpedal a little bit here and let’s address that drawbridge that you keep bringing up. What are some ways that people can bring down that drawbridge to bring people into their stories, their presentations?
Ryan Warner
[19:19] Yeah, so there’s a couple different ways depending on the audience that you have. I’ll speak a couple of generalities. One way that you can do or one approach you can take, let’s say, is you can explain to them – and you have to, of course, do your research in advance – but explain to them why it should matter to them, why your message, what you’re about to say, should matter to them. Of course, you have to have an idea of what their life’s like, how much time they spend on different tasks, because ultimately, if you want them to give you their time and attention, you need to provide something of value. Usually, sometimes, people, it’s making them wealthier, increasing the profits, but often time, it’s decreasing the time that they spend. You’re saving them time. You’re saving them stress. You’re making things more efficient, or you’re giving them a warning so that they can evade some danger, overcome some challenge in advance. Other than that, you’re alerting them to an opportunity, perhaps, that they might be able to take advantage of.
[20:22] But whatever the circumstances are, let them know that. Lead with that. Say today I’m going to be telling you A, B, and C, and this is important because the A, B, and C, or I’m sorry, D, E, and F.
Taylor Martin
[20:34] Right.
Ryan Warriner
[20:35] Yeah, and when you do that, you’re communicating, you’re signaling to them. And you’re not saying this explicitly, but they’re receiving a signal this person gets me. They understand. And that is building a bridge right there. When people feel like you understand what their life is like – you understand their struggles. You understand what they go through and what will help them. Then they’ll, okay, they get me, so I’m going to give them some time. I’m going to give them my attention. I want to hear what they have to say. Where are they going with this?
[21:04] That’s what you want. Because at the end of the day, I know I’m – oh, let’s go into the weeds here, Taylor. Let’s go into the.
Taylor Martin
[21:09] Sure. Let’s do it.
Ryan Warriner
[21:11] Yeah, let’s do psychology here. My first degree was in psychology so Psychology 101. Everyone has a limited amount of cognitive energy during the day.
Taylor Martin
[21:19] Mm-hmm.
Ryan Warriner
[21:20] So we have a certain amount that we can spend on different types of activities. Now, our brain subconsciously makes decisions on what we should pay attention to and what we should not. So that’s why we establish routines because routines take little to no mental effort, and our bodies just go through the emotions. Someone who’s going to the gym at first every day, it takes them forever to get the willpower to go. If you’ve been going every day for a month, then, that 32nd day, you’re already at the gym changing in your locker. You’re like how did I get here? You just did it by habit, so when you’re sitting in – an audience member sitting for a presentation, their brain is making a choice. Do I want to focus and listen to this, or do I want to daydream and conserve my mental energy?
[22:09] That’s the decision they’re faced with. If they spend their mental energy here, then something later might arise that might be mentally taxing or mentally challenging that they might need. They might need their cognitive energy to solve, so they’re making a decision in that moment. So you need to help them make that decision in your favor. And how do you do that? You do that by explaining to them the reasons they should, that it’s in their interest to give their mental energy, their cognitive energy to you now, and that it’ll pay dividends for them down the road. Does that make sense?
Taylor Martin
[22:39] Absolutely. I love getting into the weeds like that. It’s about connecting with them in some capacity either by illustrating to them the need for what you’re about to tell them and how it’s going to help them or benefit them, or the planet, or whatever. I think that’s most important because it’s – I see it as like a hook. It’s like a wakeup call. It’s like, hey, this is what we’re talking about, and I think you need to pay attention for this. And then, like you said, if it arouses them enough, they’ll say, okay, I’m going to listen and I’m going to engage in this. Once you do that, then I think the rest is based on time, like we mentioned.
[23:20] I always think about presentations. I always like watching good presenters like Simon Sinek. I always like his presentations. His delivery is always spot on. By watching someone like him I think is pretty amazing, but I’ve also been an observer of Apple’s Keynotes because I’ve read stories about how much time they spend on rehearsing the presentations.
Ryan Warriner
[23:49] Mm-hmm.
Taylor Martin
[23:49] Nowadays, I think they’re doing – I’m not watching them all the time, but nowadays, I think they’re doing it where it’s prerecorded or pre-created because of the pandemic and being virtual and everybody not being in the same location. But that part of rehearsal, I feel like that is always paramount because I tell some of my clients – and I’m not a presenter specialist like you, but I always tell people, if you’re going to present, present it well, like five to seven times in a row without having a hiccup. Because you’re getting comfortable with it, and you’re going to be going through some nuances of how to deliver in honing that craft. Could you elaborate on that in terms of how that works?
Ryan Warriner
[24:38] Yeah, absolutely. So rehearsals are another key component to presentation success. There’s no two ways about it. However, there is a caveat. The more you rehearse early on, the less you’ll have to rehearse when you’ve gotten 500, 1,000 presentations under your belt. So very experienced presenters, for example, like Simon Sinek and like Steve Jobs and the folks from Apple who have spoke for so – they’ve spoke so much that they might only spend 10 hours rehearsing, whereas someone right out of the gate might spend a full – 40, 50 hours rehearsing the same thing. And that’s simply because, at that level, when you’re speaking very, very frequently, you are more in tune with the body language, with the intonation, with the delivery skills that – so you can make the crucial, the key parts land the way you want them to land using your voice and your delivery tools that you have because you’re familiar with them already.
[25:36] Early on, you want to rehearse, and that’s a component of it. When you’re rehearsing, you’re also making sure that your gestures, your body language, and your vocal projection match the message you want to send. They’re all congruent with each other. Because if you send a mixed message, that’s not going to be good for you. I’ve had so many presenters I’ve coached over the years. but when I first did an initial diagnostic with them, they would –they had been told that default is a smile, so always smile and laugh and joke and make the audience feel positive. And then when they’re talking about something serious, the audience doesn’t know. So the audience is like are we suppose to laugh here or not? What’s happening here? So you don’t want to create audience confusion.
[26:20] The benefit of rehearsals is actually threefold, and the first is that it helps you familiarize yourself with your own delivery, with your own topic, and with the language you’re going to use. You’ll often find that you know what? There’s a better word for this, or there’s a better phrase, or nah, this is coming off corny. I want to change this. It’s not coming out right, and that happens a lot more than we realize. Because when we’re thinking about it through our mental reps, some – yeah, you can skip over this part. Yeah, I know what to say for this. I know what to say for that. And sometimes a line will come out later, and you’re like, eh, I wish I would’ve changed that. So that’s the first one.
[26:57] The second thing about repetition, the second benefit is it’s building muscle memory. So when you find yourself in the situation, no matter how much the nerves hit you, you’ll still – the words will come to you automatically because you’re so used to saying them in that sequence. So the words that follow, often times we call them collocations, like interested in or interested to. There’s only two words that can go with interested. So when I say that word, I know what’s going to come out next. My brain knows. I could be in front of a million people; it’s going to happen.
[27:25] And that also leads to the third benefit, which is you obtain a certain level of comfort, level of confidence, and you’re able to keep your nerves at bay for longer the more you practice, the more you rehearse. Because you’re familiar with the setting, you’ll be familiar with what to expect. You’ll be more familiar with what you’re going to say, and the exposure and the practice helps to keep those demons at bay. Because I say, when you’re speaking, if you have speaking anxiety, which 80-some percent of the population does on a regular basis, you’ll have programs running in the background, as I say, while you’re trying to deliver. So one of the hacks that helps override those programs running in the background – they’re telling you get out of here, or I don’t know why I’m sweating, or I can’t control my breathing or anything like that.
Taylor Martin
[28:15] [Laughs]
Ryan Warriner
[28:16] Yeah. That happens to people. Then you’ll be able to get through it a little bit more comfortably.
Taylor Martin
[28:22] Yeah. Something that I think I heard on a previous podcast that you were a guest on was engaging with the content early on as opposed to procrastinating and waiting until the end and building up anxiety, whereas getting in – like if your presentation is in two weeks, start now and at least get the form of it together and have your brain start working on it subconsciously or consciously and build towards it as opposed to waiting ‘til the last few days and then throwing a deck together or something and then having these anxiety moments.
Ryan Warriner
[28:57] Yeah. And again, that goes back to the – many people think that. Many people think that it’s like writing a memo. It’s just a chore that needs to get done, and because that’s the perception of it, people approach it in that way. Oh, I still have time. I’ll throw it together. Okay, yes, you can, and yes, you can trudge through it like that, and you can stumble your way through. And maybe you’re pretty good on your feet, and maybe you can deliver better than the average person on your feet. Okay, so yes.
[29:27] But at the end of the day, is that helping your brand? Is that helping your stock? Are people leaving that presentation thinking, man, that Taylor guy, he was prepared for this. He was prepared, and he spoke really well about it, actually. When we need to send someone as an ambassador for our company, a representative, let’s send Taylor, or who needs to get – we need to fill another manager spot or another director spot. Should we go internally? Yeah, Taylor’s been speaking a lot lately, actually. I think we can use him. I think he’s got a lot to offer us. And the amount of effort you put into it, the amount of professionalism you display, that all adds credibility to your brand, and that adds a lot of weight behind you. You’ll carry that everywhere because you’re building up your reputation.
Taylor Martin
[30:14] I can’t agree with you more, especially about hiring Taylor. We want to send Taylor to go do that, yes, absolutely.
Ryan Warriner
[30:20] Who doesn’t?
Taylor Martin
[30:22] Let’s dive back into the anxiety thing. Are there some tricks to the trade of how people can help manage their anxiety? Because some people are just petrified. I mean, I’ve seen people literally shaking when they’re up there on stage, and I’m feeling for them. But I’m very interested in what they’re saying. And they’re doing a great job, but there are people – there are different types of anxieties. How do you coach them along in those capacities?
Ryan Warriner
[30:46] Yeah, that’s another great question. I get this question a lot, and unfortunately, it is common. I mean, it’s very common, but it’s also unique to each individual person. So for example, someone might have different effects and different responses to the nerves, to the speaking anxiety than another person, and it might be for different reasons. So some people are more fearful that they’re going to be judged, that the audience knows more than them, and they’re going to say, no, you’re wrong, or they’re going to question them. They’re going to look foolish. And other people are simply afraid of being on their own in front of others.
[31:24] So I guess, psychologically – again, I’ll go into the weeds a little bit here. Psychologically speaking, we humans innately have a fear of being on our own isolated in front of a group, and the reason is it’s tribal. That our ancestors thousands of years ago, if they were on their own in front of a group of people, they might not be in a good position. They might be in some danger. Some harm might be coming their way, so their brain is saying get out of here. Get of out of here. It’s like the fight or flight or freeze. But you’re not going to fight, and of course, you can’t run away.
Taylor Martin
[32:01] Right.
Ryan Warriner
[32:02] So what do you do? So you’re challenged with being there and trying to deliver a message to people who your brain instinctively perceives as potentially hostile and that you’re in a situation that you could get out of but you’re not, and you’re trying to fight that while you’re trying to deliver. It could make it very, very – a nerve-wracking experience, let’s say, for someone who is tasked with their first big opportunity. They’ve been working on a company for three years, and this is their big opportunity to shine and to ascend. And they’re trying to fight these – keep these waters at bay in their mind.
[32:43] So let’s go over a couple general things that everyone can do, even though there’s really – it gets down to the nitty-gritty and some specifics. Generally, one thing that everyone can do is start breathing, and when I say breathing, I mean start at least a minute before you’re about to speak. And breathe, we always say – when I’m coaching, say eight seconds in through your nose and five seconds out through your mouth. And you do that for three or four breaths, and then you switch it. So then it’s five seconds in, eight seconds out. And then what’ll happen is leading up to – 30 seconds left leading up to your presentation, you’ll be able to calm yourself to the point where your mind will be temporarily clear, not permanently but temporarily.
[33:30] Because our heartbeat quickens when we anticipate a threat, and make no mistake, that’s what you’re anticipating when you’re getting in front of people. Our heartbeat quickens so that we have more oxygen to our muscles that we need to run away or fight. So with that, there’s a lot of adrenaline pumping. So the way to reduce that so we can have mental clarity and we can focus on living in the message, as we say, you want to start your breathing, and you can continue that. In addition, I mean, there’s other things you can do. Make sure you show up early. Make sure you’re dressed appropriately. There’s thing you can do preemptively to set yourself up for success. Drinking water helps. If you have a lot of water, if you’re hydrating your system, it’s much more difficult to reach a high level of anxiety, so being hydrated helps.
[34:14] But overall, the main hack in all the research I’ve been able to find in all of my experience is this, treat your audience – all of them, however many, if it’s 10 or if it’s 1,000, treat them as if they’re individuals who need your help. You have a message to send. They must hear it. What you’re going to say is going to help them in some way. When you view them like this, not someone there to criticize, not someone who’s there and they don’t want to be but someone who actually needs your help, you will be far more at peace and at ease and comfortable to deliver your message because your brain is not thinking I need to get out here. Your brain is thinking I can help these folks.
[34:58] I mean, if you think about it like that – I use this analogy all the time. I actually wrote it in the book. If you were walking down the street and you see an elderly person stumble and fall down, you’re going to help them. Most people will reach out to help them up. It doesn’t matter if there’s a million people watching. You’re going to do that, and you’re not going to be nervous helping someone up.
[35:17] That same methodology applies. So when you’re speaking to a large group of people, think of it as I need to help them. I have something to offer them, and they need to know this. It’ll help them in whatever way, and then you’ll be focused on delivering the message to them and making sure they get it. Maybe you’ll use an analogy like I just did, or maybe you’ll use a metaphor, or you’ll use a comparison, one of the tools, to make sure that they understand it because now your priorities have shifted. They’re not simply to get done, but they’re to make sure the audience is aware and understand your message.
Taylor Martin
[35:50] I aligned so closely to that because there’s something that we do, that I do is I never try to sell our services to people. I listen to perspective clients and what their pain points are, their problems and their goals are and their vision and their history and all, and I try to figure out can we help this organization? What we have, what we’re going to offer, is it going to facilitate what their needs are? I see that as exact same mental mindset. That’s exactly how I think about when I’m talking to a perspective client is how are we going to help them? Can we help them? And if not, I’ll find somebody. I usually always find at least one or two referrals I can send them to, or I get them down another path just because I feel I want to be of service. I want to help others. I mean, that’s why my company’s name is Design Positive because we do design work, but we’re positive thinker, positive minded. That’s really interesting.
[36:50] Something I’d also say is that, some people with anxiety, maybe going back to the idea of going through the presentation multiple times training for it can also set one at ease because you know it through and through and you’re not having to second guess.
Ryan Warriner
[37:09] Yeah, absolutely. Exposure and practice are – is the formula for anxiety reduction, and so the more you’re up in front of people, the more you speak, the less daunting of a scenario it feels like. You’re not as nervous about it. You’re like, okay, I do this every Tuesday and Thursday. It’s just another meeting I have to lead. And for myself, I still lecture, so twice a week I lecture to 400 students at a time. If you’re someone who is up in front of people often, it becomes less and less challenging and less and less scary, but the rehearsals, the practice does give you a lot of confidence. Because when you’re practicing and preparing, what you’re also doing – and again, often people don’t realize this, but the other benefit is you’re understanding what they might ask. So if you’re stopping, you don’t have the time – going back to the time. You don’t have the time to fully elaborate all the details on a point. You’re giving the point, maybe one or two supporting details or evidence, and then you have to move on to the next point for times’ sake.
[38:14] However, you’re aware that the audience – one or someone in the audience, might have a question about that point, so you can prepare for the Q&A afterwards. If they ask me this, I’ll say that. If they ask me that, I’ll say this. It gives you that as well. Because a lot of folks feel like the Q&A section is the most anxiety inducing component of your presentation because then, at that point, it’s off the rails. Now anything can happen. They could ask you anything, and you’re no longer on script. But in fact, you’re still in control, and the key in that situation is just to receive the question, acknowledge it respectfully, and then take the opportunity to restate your main takeaway. So if they’re asking you a question that – I have the answer for that. It’s actually quite detailed. I’m happy to touch base with you afterwards, for sure, but for now, my – what I’d like everyone to remember is this, and you kind of refocus them.
Taylor Martin
[39:07] That’s a great way to control that situation instead of letting it – getting out of hand, just to – I love that. I love that approach. What about some of things that I think you’ve talked about or we talked about was about some of your findings in your data? Because those are kind of like really interesting golden nuggets, like standing versus sitting for presentations. Can you speak about that?
Ryan Warriner
[39:31] Yeah, for sure. I’m saying this as I’m sitting, but yes, definitely, standing, it offers you a lot of comfort. And a lot of people don’t – again, it’s something that’s often overlooked, and unfortunately, a lot of things – presentations are overlooked. But if you’re standing, you’re able to correct your posture, and when your posture is corrected, you can actually take in more oxygen in your lungs, and that initially helps to calm you down because you’re not feeling the sensation like you’re running low on air supply, like you’re hungry for air. And additionally, that helps you to calm down and to refocus everything else. Everything in your body can become aligned. You’re not tapping, or shaking, or anything because you’re focused. You’re more in control.
[40:16] You also have the freedom to move around. You have the freedom to use gestures more effectively. You’re not constrained, and when you’re not constrained, you can focus more on your outcome. What do I need these folks to do after they leave? What does a win look like? After they leave here, I need them to do this job better, or I need them to place an order, or I need them to move forward with whatever knowledge and make the appropriate decision, and so when you’re thinking in that – in those terms, then you’re not really worried about the word choice. And chances are, if you’re at that level, you’re already – your information is already structured. You’re more focused on – that’s all flexible. That can all be done because you’re anchored by getting them to your finish line.
Taylor Martin
[41:10] Right. What about presenting on Zoom and online presentations because sometimes everybody’s seated? So that’s one thing. But you’re also constrained to the little window box that you have, that everybody else has, or you might be able to have a presentation slide deck going, but you still see everybody else on the right-hand side. You only see so many people. Can you speak to some things people can do to feel more comfortable or be able to better presenters when presenting online?
Ryan Warriner
[41:39] Yeah, absolutely. Online presentations are a tough one because we still – we don’t lose the principle of what does a win look like? Our desired outcome, that’s still there. However, the expectations need to be reduced. Because simply put, there’s far more distractions online. You’re online. I’m delivering a presentation, and someone’s child is yelling at them in the background, or their dog is snoring and they’re distracted by that, or a hundred different things. They’re checking their email because it’s as simple as minimizing their window. So you have to go in there with that understanding, and also, from the presenter’s standpoint, sometimes people have their cameras off. So that can make it challenging too because you have a lack of feedback. You’re depending on their facial response, their facial expressions, and their body language to confirm because they’re not going to say, yes, I understand, and they’re not going to type in the Chat, ooh, I like this.
[42:39] So you have to be aware that there’s different parameters in place now. So the rules of the game has changed, but the objective is still the same. And in that case, there’s a couple things that you can do. So one, set the ground rules as clear as you can in advance and make sure that they’re favorable for you so meaning if you have building points in your presentation for questions so people aren’t just typing in the Chat and the bubble pops up and distracts you. Maybe let them know at the beginning that you’re going to have two pause points here, which people can ask questions. So if you had one, jot one down now and feel free to type it in at the appropriate time or unmute yourself at the appropriate time. Make sure everyone’s muted, those types of things. Maybe you have a moderator to help you field some of the questions. You can do that as well. And making sure, like I said, you set yourself up for success as best as possible.
[43:31] And then, when you’re delivering, there’s a couple things you can do too. You can keep yourself in a positive frame of mind by – there’s some small tricks you can do even. If you have a Post-it note – and I’ve done this myself sometimes. If it’s a long day for me and – I feel like I’m still paying attention, but I feel like my face isn’t reflecting that I’m paying attention, that I’m interested. I’ll have a picture or I’ll draw a smiley face on a Post-it note, then put it next to my camera, and when I see that – we all have mirror neurons in our brain. When we see a smile, we smile back, so it helps to remind me I need to – even though I’m focusing, sometimes my focusing face can look angry, or I look like I’m really deep in thought. So I do this to keep on track. There’s little hacks like that you can use.
[44:18] But at the end of the day, if you’re delivering an online presentation, my advice would be stay focused on your key takeaways, repeat them. Be aware. You’re not going to get the feedback, so don’t worry about it. You’re not going to get people nodding and agreeing and this – or looking confused. Then you’re going to re-elaborate or rephrase what you’ve said. That’s most likely not going to happen. So be prepared to trudge through and solider through and just make it as clear as possible that folks can follow up with you afterwards, they can ask questions in the middle, and that you’ve set yourself up for success.
Taylor Martin
[44:54] A couple other things that popped in my mind I think are good takeaways for people is to – what we talked about before. Don’t have too much text on a slide but also color contrast. Make sure you don’t put white text on a yellow background because in a presentation, whether it’s being emitted onto a screen or on the computer, it’s hard to read. Make sure things are legible and big enough type. Do you have any set rules or guide rails of don’t have more than X amount of words on a page?
Ryan Warriner
[45:24] Taylor, it sounds like you’ve been reading my book.
Taylor Martin
[45:26] [Laughs]
Ryan Warriner
[45:27] Yeah. So we’re talking about – yeah, we’re talking about visual aid design, which, by the way, just a precursor to visual aid design, make sure you create your visual aids after you’ve determined who your audience is, what a win looks like, and what structure you’re going to use. If you start right out of the gate opening up your PowerPoint or your Keynote or whatever you’re using, like Google Slides and you start building slides, it’s going to create a couple problems, and chief among them is that you will be very reluctant to part with them once you’ve made them, even if they’re no longer optimal for your presentation. Because you’ll feel like they’re a waste of time. You want to salvage them. Do not make your slides until you’re ready, until your have a structure, your main points ironed out, and then you can build your slides around those to reflect those points.
[46:14] But as far as details of how – what dos and don’ts, let’s say, of how to design effective slides, yes, color contrast is a good – everyone should know that. There is a good website called ColorExplorer. There’s a couple color matching website where, if you put in your background or if you put in your font color, they will tell you the best colors to contrast it, to match against it. Also, yeah, make sure that you have a border around your slides. Don’t have anything right to the edge. If you’re going to design slides with visuals and text on them, make sure your visuals are on the left and your text is on the right.
Taylor Martin
[46:51] Mm.
Ryan Warriner
[46:52] We read in North America from left to right, top to bottom, and we call them eye sweeps. And it’s far less cognitive energy. It’s less taxing to go through left to right than it is right to left. So if you switch that around, it’s making it a little bit more challenging because then our eyes aren’t flowing naturally. Our eyes are going back and forth. Wait, what’s this? Okay, where’s the picture? Oh, I see how this connects now, as opposed to connecting fluidly.
Taylor Martin
[46:52] Because you’re looking at the picture first and then you look at the copy because the picture’s so visually demanding?
Ryan Warriner
[47:22] Correct.
Taylor Martin
[47:23] Oh, okay.
Ryan Warriner
[47:24] Yes. So you’ll look at the visual, and then they’ll at the text. And then, once they go through the text, they’ll have the visual. They’ll know how it compliments versus if you have – like I said, if you’re – you’re reading the text. First your eyes will go to the visual, and then they’ll go back to the text, and then they’ll go back to the visual. You’re forcing them to work, basically.
[47:43] Another key point is don’t have more – the magic number is five. So don’t have more than five bullet points, five content pieces on the same slide. If you go over five, then what happens is—and this has been well documented. If you show more than five items on a slide, our brains shift into another gear. So we can recognize the five things instantly. If I showed you a slide with five dots on them and said how many are here, say as quickly as you know, you’ll see five. If I put eight dots on that same slide, you’ll have to go into counting mode, one, two, three four, five, six. Now it takes three or four times the time, and it also, again, makes them spend more energy.
[48:26] So you don’t want to do that, and again, it risks making your presentation look more disoriented, less focused, lack of focus. So what can you do? It’s a simple answer: more slides, less content. Break that slide up with eight bullet points into two slides with four and go through each, or if you have a couple on there that aren’t standalone points, that they’re addendums or they’re add-ons to existing points, then you can elaborate on that when the time comes, and you don’t need a point. They might not warrant a point by itself. So more isn’t always better, and remember, your slides are there to compliment you, not to distract the audience, not to replace you. You’re not showing them the latest Martin Scorsese movie. You don’t want them to be like, ooh, I want to focus – you need them to leave thinking what you want them to think and doing what you want them to do. That’s your goal. It’s not always to entertain them.
Taylor Martin
[49:25] Ryan Warriner, his book is The Effective Presenter: The Winning Formula for Business Communication. I think I overheard you somewhere say that you ran out of your first print run. Are you guys already on your second, and is that out and available?
Ryan Warriner
[49:40] Yeah, it’s funny. We’re actually on our third. Thank you for asking.
Taylor Martin
[49:43] Oh! Oh, my god!
Ryan Warriner
[49:45] Yes. Yeah, we sold over 10,000 copies, and it just came out in February last year, of this year. Yeah, I didn’t foresee that, to be honest with you, but it’s been going extremely well. So yes, more copies are in stock now. I only have one left, actually, at my house here. I’ve given a lot away. I couldn’t even get them for a while but yeah, so they’re back. It’s available on Amazon. It’s available on Barnes & Noble, anywhere books are sold on Apple. Yeah, feel free, please, grab a copy.
[50:17] You don’t have to be a phenomenal presenter to realize more opportunities. You just have to understand the rules of the game, and if you’re incrementally better than you were, you’ll see the benefits and the opportunities come. And you’ll see how your stock rises.
Taylor Martin
[50:37] Well put. Well said. Wonderful, I can’t agree with you more. Thank you for being on today’s show. I really do appreciate this, and being a better leader means also being a better presenter. I think those two just go hand in hand. Ryan, thank you so much for being on today’s show, and filling us in with all these wonderful golden nuggets to be better presenters.
Ryan Warriner
[50:59] Absolutely, Taylor, thank you for having me. Yeah, if I can ever help, if anyone wants to get in touch, please feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn or through professionalpresentationservices.com. I’d be happy to help.
Taylor Martin
[51:10] Excellent. Thank you, Ryan. Over and out everybody.
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[51:13] Thanks for tuning into the Triple Bottom Line. Your host, Taylor Martin, is Founder and Chief Creative of Design Positive, a strategic branding and accessibility agency. Interested in being interviewed on our podcast? Then visit designpositive.co and fill out our contact form. If you enjoyed today’s podcast, we would appreciate a review on Apple podcasts or whatever provider you’re logging in from. This podcast is prepared by Design Positive and is not associated with any other entity. We look forward to having you back for another installment of the Triple Bottom Line.
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