How to Become a Changemaker!

Nina Cambadélis, a multi-certified change-making coach that helps organizations become more sustainable, equitable, and profitable. Nina's purpose is to improve businesses and the lives they touch. She does this through education, research, coaching, data, insight, experience, and a lot of listening. So sit down and get ready to start thinking about how you could be the changemaker you've always wanted to be!  https://www.armunia.me
 

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Transcript

Triple Bottom Line | Episode 35 | Nina |

[Upbeat theme music plays] 
Female Voice Over 
[00:03] Welcome to the Triple Bottom Line, where we reveal how today’s business leaders are reaching a new level of success with a people-planet-profit approach. And here is your host, Taylor Martin!

Taylor Martin 
[00:17] Welcome everyone, so happy to have you here today. We have Nina Combales [ph] on today. She is a certified coach for changemaking. When I saw that, I was really interested in it. When I say she’s really well-known in the space, she is certified in 14 different certifications. When it comes to changemaking, she works with individuals, or teams, or entire organizations. It’s whatever is required of her. Nina, welcome to the show today. Can you tell our listeners a little bit about your journey and how you unfolded to be doing what you’re doing today. 

Nina
[00:49] [Laugh] Yeah, thank you so much for inviting me to your podcast, Taylor. It’s really great to be here. Thanks for your introduction. Yeah, so I’m French. I am a leadership certified coach, as you said. I help organizations and professionals activate sustainable changes to benefit our common future. I actually spent the past ten years, also, I would say, in Asia, leading change in a multicultural environment as the Head of Sustainability and Purpose in a Fortune 500 organization. Today, I want to support organizations and professionals to become the impactful change leaders they want to be for themselves, for the ecosystems, and for the broader society because we need it.  

Taylor Martin
[01:41] In terms of the services you offer, is this a growing trend? Are people needing this more and more these days? 

Nina 
[01:49] I guess so, yeah, for many reasons. Maybe I can list the top three reasons, I would say. The first thing is if we want our children to keep living in peace on this planet, we need to really dramatically change the way we consume, produce, work, and cooperate with each other. I don’t know if you know this quote, but I love it. It’s Albert Einstein that said, “Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.” 
[02:20] I’m thinking, how do we change our level of awareness. I believe that coaching helps because with coaching we can take a step back and we see reality with a different perspective. Certain reasons why these kinds of coaching services for organizations are needed is the fact that organizations have a strong impact whether positive or negative on the economy, environment, and society. We need to work with them if we want to change the system, if we want to create systemic change. 

[02:56] The problem is that organizational change is super complex and usually fails due to human resistance. What does that mean for coaching? Through experimentation, we reveal team dynamics, and we unlock collective intelligence, people autonomy, creativity so that teams can activate the changes they want. 

[03:22] Finally, as you may know, lots of professionals are eager to find meaning in the [inaudible] to their work these days. Many are currently resigning because they don’t know how they can grow, feel valued, or contribute to the current world challenges. I was thinking with friends, how might we address this quiet quitting phenomenon? I believe that coaching has an answer because it creates a space where professionals can dare to dream big. At the same time, they can be bold in taking decisive actions to meet their objects. I guess for these reasons, these kinds of services are more and more needed these days. 

Taylor Martin
[04:06] When people reach out to you and engage you for services, do they come to you with ideas of we want this, we want that, without really taking into consideration what you’re going to provide them and what you’re going to educate them on? 

Nina
[04:21] Yeah, what I do is I really adapt to the client’s circumstances, to their needs. What I’m here for is to be a partner for their journey, for them to reach their objectives to be more peaceful in doing so and more proud, also, in doing so. I’m not here to educate them. I’m here to support them, to challenge them, and to enlighten them if I can. 

Taylor Martin
[04:46] When I introduced you, I heard you chuckle when I talked about all your certifications. That was something I’ve never – I mean, you definitely broke the record in terms of additional certifications beyond your degrees. Is that something that’s just indicative of changemaking coaching? It’s just such a specific niche. Where do you go to get that knowledge? 

Nina
[05:10] Mm, well the first thing is I guess it’s just because I love learning. My certifications reflect that. I believe we are in a world of constant evolution. None of us are experts for long. We need to keep learning and unlearning so as to remain agile, innovative, and high performance. Yeah, I was certified by the International Coaching Federation as a professional coach because I really want to partner with my client to unleash their potential. 

[05:45]I also wanted to support them on the hard skills part. Beyond my experience, I expanded my toolbox with concrete sustainable frameworks such as becoming a B Leader. I don’t know if you know that. The B Leader is actually a process where an experienced sustainability professional has been trained to guide businesses through the B Corporation Certification process. I keep learning. I keep learning about new forms of governance, leadership, collective intelligence. I believe that we need these kind of tools and frameworks to really engage stockholders around purposeful projects. 

[06:30] Honestly, even though I really appreciate your comment and attention, I believe that certifications are great. What is really more important that that is practice. This is what I valued. I experimented methods in working these complex projects and real clients. This is what we say, right? Practice makes perfect.  

Taylor Martin
[06:51] When someone’s reaching out to you, I’m sure that there’s things that have gone on in their world, their company, that have created an issue where they realize, okay, we need to bring in a specialist or something like that. How does someone know they want to be a changemaker, or they need to have some sort of transformational change in their organization?

Nina
[07:13] Yeah, good one, it’s really funny. When I speak with some people that I really value that’s a changemaker, sometimes they don’t even recognize themselves as changemakers. There is a high tone of humility on this. I guess that a changemaker can be anyone who is taking creative action to solve a social or an environmental problem. I really believe that everyone has a possibility to be a changemaker. Every professional can really disrupt the day-to-day practices so as to make a positive impact either on nature, clients, employees, partners. What is true is that this requires courage, determination, and a high level of energy. 

Taylor Martin
[07:58] Yeah, I mean it’s almost like – because you’re starting new ground. You’re paving a new path. There is going to be a lot of resistance to pave that new path. I could completely empathize with that. 

Nina
[08:09] Actually, I would like to ask you a question, Taylor, if you don’t mind. 

Taylor Martin
[08:13] Sure. 

Nina
[08:14] Do you consider yourself as a changemaker? 

Taylor Martin
[08:16] In a small way, yes. 

Nina
[08:18] Yeah, I do believe so because you really promote diversity, and accessibility, and equality. Through your podcast, you’re actually giving advice to these people willing to make an impact. Everyone can contribute their own way. 

Taylor Martin
[08:34] That’s what I’m doing. That’s what I mean by my own little way. This podcast allows me to, I guess, pass information along that I see is very important especially in today’s business world. I love business. I just love all the different facets, cogs in the wheel, and everything that has to do and revolve around business. I’m a voracious reader. I read a lot of content. I just wish more people knew what I knew. Being able to reach out to professionals like you and have these conversations is a delight to me. 

Nina
[09:02] Thank you for this opportunity because it’s a delight to me too. [Laughs]

Taylor Martin
[09:07] Absolutely. I’m really curious about when you’re working with changemakers. It seems like there’s the individual changemaker, the one person. Then there might be a team changemaker where you’re changing a department or a group of people within the organization. Then there’s the whole organization, which I can’t even fathom to grasp what that would be like. Then top-level executive management change, whether you’re doing one person or a team of people at that level. Can you break down how you approach those? 

Nina
[09:38] Yeah, sure, I guess within the organization I usually work with four kinds of changemakers, leaders, HR professionals, sustainability professionals, and professionals eager to find meaning at work. I work either individually with them, or with their team, or even with their partners inside the company or outside the company. I support them, as you said, either through individual coaching, team coaching, organizational coaching, learning workshops, and also make sustainability and change interventions and committees. Maybe it will be clear if I give you some examples for the audience to relate. What do you think? 

Taylor Martin
[10:22] I think that sounds great. 

Nina
[10:23] Okay, maybe I can speak about the individual coaching because it’s maybe a bit more straightforward. I’ll take the case of a 45-years-old client who was working in a middle-sized engineering company in the UK when I met him. I’ll call John for confidentiality reasons. John, when I met him, was a very hyperactive high achiever who has just been promoted. Thanks to his discussions with his children, he understood the environmental challenges. The problem was that he was a bit unclear on how to make change in his company. He was under a high level of pressure to deliver financial results and did not have time to take a step back to think outside the box. The good news is that his company gave him a six-month coaching program. After this time, John knew exactly how his skills, including his analytical mind could be articulated with his day-to-day work because he was super clear about his values of integrity and loyalty. He also decided to stay in the company to make an impact. 

[11:45] Maybe I can give you some examples of change, what changed corporately. During this coaching, he grew up as a leader. He stopped micromanaging. He empowered his team. He trusted them. He was actually amazed by the gain in time, innovation, and engagement from his team as a result. Thanks to the additional time he gained, he was able to refocus on innovative business offers. He developed digital services to save water. He was thinking about new modes of transportation to reduce carbon emissions. That was a huge step in terms of professional impact.

[12:29] It also changed him in terms of personal impact. It changed his view of success. He was not at work all the time. He decided to adjust his lifestyle, so he went to work on his bike rather than by car. He spent more time in nature with his family. He learned a new language. It really can have a different aspect on you, on your ecosystem, and on the company, I would say. 

Taylor Martin
[12:59] Yeah, the individual. 

Nina
[13:01] Yeah, so maybe I can speak about team coaching. I would take a completely different kind of background. I would love to speak about a team coaching experience I had with an association called Get Up. It’s a French association, a network for poor neighborhood near Paris. When I met them, the team and the association wanted to develop a new leadership program for young adults. The objective was at the time to make these young adults believe they are not the problem but the solution to environmental and social challenges. With the organizer, we first worked on their own leadership styles, their values, their strengths, so social cause they wanted to fight for. For example, if they highlighted values like equality, innovation. They also wanted to find solutions to develop access to education, affordable food. 

[14:00] What they really want at the bottom of their heart was to boost the young adult’s confidence. They really wanted to empower them to stand up, and to share their ideas, and act in society. Once they were clear on their ambition and on their own experience, they were able to develop a robust and customized program for these people. Before rolling out the program, we trial and tested parts of the process on themselves to make sure that it was customer centered. 

[14:37] I remember as an outcome, maybe to share some stories, I remember two project leaders. They were telling me how much grateful they were to have done this coaching experience. They said that now they trusted their dreams, their capacity to achieve them, and because of increasing their confidence about the value of their program for the future of their community, they actually overreached the target in terms of participant enrollment. 
[15:06] Beyond words, I would say that my best memory was to see, at the end of the program, to see an initially quiet organizer having so much fun speaking up at an event and encouraging others to do so. Three months ago, she totally rejected the idea. She didn’t feel legitimate. She thought it was not her role. I found it was a great turn of events. 

Taylor Martin
[15:37] Sounds like a transformation she went through. 

Nina
[15:40] Yeah, and she went through that. She could lead by example. She could empower the others to do so also. It was more cohesion between the team, more connection within the participants. Yeah, it was great. 

Taylor Martin
[15:55] What about working with a company, a larger organization. 

Nina
[15:59] Yeah, so I could speak about an organizational coaching experience. It was a few years ago in China. At the time, the environmental regulation became very strict to fight pollution. I don’t know if you heard about the huge pollution crisis. Many industries were asked, at the time, to relocate far away from cities. An industrial company was at risk losing its social license to operate. The local neighborhood was stressed because they believed – they relied on the job at their plants. 

[16:38] At the time, a Fortune 500 organization, which is a leader in environmental services, it’s name is Veolia, I don’t know if you know, was managing their water services. The company decided to support the clients in this challenge. What we did is that we gathered at the site with the site manager. We invited more than 30 people from all Asian countries, various different backgrounds, marketing, HR, operations, sustainability, of course, health and safety, for a two-day seminar to brainstorm on ways to further preserve biodiversity and natural resources on the industrial site. In parallel to that, we also gathered a committee of high-level external stakeholders, high-level experts in social environment business fields to challenge the business practices and foresee potential opportunities for growth. 

[17:43] After several months of hard work, I’m very – I really admire the team there. I’m happy to share the results. Eight hectares of wetlands were rehabilitated with more than 140 species coming back. There were one hectare for the leisure community, several hectares for natural plantations. The beauty of it is that the wetlands’ water was coming from the wastewater of the plant. It was not natural water. There is a technology called Natural Solutions enabled the site to meet the most stringent environmental standards. As a result, as you may imagine, the plant didn’t move. It was actually celebrated by the governments for the – for its innovation. This showcase really allowed both the client and the partner to demonstrate the power of working together, first of all, to fight complex challenges. Also, the power of integrating sustainability into daily core business. 

Taylor Martin
[18:55] When you’re grabbing all these different people together, and you’re having your first or second meeting, I would imagine that some people there are probably thinking oh, this is just – how are we going to do this? You haven’t gone through the motions yet. You’re just getting the ideas of what we want to accomplish out. No one really knows how we’re going to do it. Is that daunting for everyone, and then they – and as you go down the process it starts to become clearer how you’re going to accomplish it? 

Nina
[19:21] Yeah, great question, thanks for that. I guess it’s a mixed feeling like being afraid of not being able to find a solution. At the same time, the excitement to create something new to address a super complex issue so important for nature, for the citizens living there. I really need to value the people there because they’re really – I guess this is part of what is a changemaker. You’re there to dream. You’re there to hope. You’re there to innovate. You’re there to try, to experiment, to fail. You really believe in the power of diversity of mind to come up with a new solution. Definitely it was hard, but I believe the team was super tenacious. They were very happy about the change we were about to create. 

Taylor Martin
[20:14] I can only imagine that once a project like this has been completed, a lot of ideas, energy, sweat and tears have gone into it. I can only imagine that people have an overwhelming sense of pride. 

Nine
[20:28] I hope so. I believe this is the best fuel ever if you want to create change. I really believe that if you motivate people, if you make them – if you make them realize about the importance to change things around them for the better good. You change everything. It’s not by punishing people. Of course, we need to realize the problems of the world, and the mismanagement, the mispractice we have. I don’t believe that it’s by punishing people you will create a change. It’s not my personal belief, personally. 

Taylor Martin
[21:09] I have lots of clients that are giving back to their society either by their product or services, or just by the profits they make. They divvy up a portion of those profits to give back to communities in the ways that they want. I have to tell you, every single time, every company that does that, the employees are just so happy to be working for such an organization that is doing these things. They will donate their time to help Habitat for Humanity, or a beach cleanup, or a food drive, or something. It just brings about a sense of community, which we all need. It’s that sense of pride that I think is empowering for business owners. They have to understand. Sometimes, I think it’s hard for them to delineate how much we’re going to spend on this and what’s my return on investment. 

Nina
[22:00] [Laughs] Yeah. 

Taylor Martin
[22:02] We’re talking about emotions here. We’re talking about employees, but employees emotions, I mean, the human capital is critical for any organization. Right? By doing this, I feel like you’re just – you’re putting money back into the human capital bank. 

Nina
[22:17] Absolutely, and I really believe – of course, we have – some people say that we have 50% of the technical solutions to the environmental challenge today. We need the 50% remaining. There is a debater whether technologies would help us find a solution. I believe it’s not only technology. What is for me, critical, is actually the human. What is at the core of the solution and the problem is the human mindset. It’s the human motivation to change. It’s when you make them realize how much fulfillment they can get in bringing a positive impact. It vibrates everywhere. It diffuse to the entire organization. Of course, you make – your clients, your talents are willing to work with you. That’s for sure. 

Taylor Martin
[23:14] I can only imagine. I use an old phrase, rolodex. I can only imagine your contact list of people that you work with to help bring solutions to the table has got to be quite impressive. 

Nina
[23:26] One thing I want to say, though, is we need to be careful because I believe that sustainability, or change, or as you want to call it is very fashionable these days. It’s important to make sure that we are not in agreement washing mode. We don’t sparkle here and there. It really destroys the credibility of the business. It really demotivates the employees and the clients. For sure, we need to dream big, and we need to set high level ambition. At the same time, we need to be realistic. We need to be bold in saying what is possible and what is not possible today, and trying to strive to reconnect mission and action on a day-to-day basis. It’s not only important to speak about it, it’s important to act for it. [Laughs]

Taylor Martin
[24:17] That’s good. I want to talk to you. I want to expand on that. What would you say are the biggest misconceptions about becoming a changemaker when someone’s thinking about doing that. 

Nina
[24:29] Mm, yeah, the first misconception is no one needs to be perfect to be a changemaker. A changemaker can strive to develop – just I’m giving you an example. A changemaker can strive to develop an environmental solution and still buy plastic from time to time. We need to be humble. We need to accept that we are imperfect beings in a fully, completely imperfect system. We need to challenge ourself to make progress, but it’s not because you’re not perfect that you cannot be a changemaker. I think some people like to be perfect to be seen and acting as a changemaker. 

[25:09] Certain misconceptions, I would say, is changemakers are not, I would say, how to say that, lonely wolves. They are not alone. They need people. At the same time, changemakers are not people that are celebrated from the get go. When we are changemakers, we will always face resistance. I don’t remember the study, but a study shows it only takes 20% of a group to pivot. What is important is perseverance and allies. I would say that the last pitfall lies in the simple saying, comparison is poison. I really believe that we need to stop judging each other. 

Taylor Martin
[26:00] Oh, I agree with that completely, wholeheartedly. I am 100%. Got my vote, yes. [Laughs]

Nina
[26:03] [Laughs] No, really, I believe we need to stop believing that one situation fits us all. I really believe that there is a diversity of changemakers and various ways to contribute. This is what will make the system shift. 

Taylor Martin
[26:20] Yeah, I think that judgement thing from my point of view, but I always saw – I’ve always seen it as a poison. When you sit there and start to judge others, you start to poison your own view of the world by doing so. It comes back. 

Nina
[26:32] Exactly because if you judge others by their errors or misalignment from time to time, how can you live? How can you accept your own? It’s impossible. How can you ask for help?  It’s destroying value. 

Taylor Martin
[26:48] Changemaking, it’s a big term. I like where you were talking about – what I heard was that your – even if you make wrong changes, but you’re making change even if you start small is what I heard. You can start small and keep adding to it, and adding to it. Then if you get to that 20% threshold, and it starts to move bigger parts of it, I feel like that is a recipe or a formula that people can wrap their heads around. 

Nina
[27:15] Yeah, absolutely, I really believe you need both things. You need a very high level ambition, and at the same time you need to be very realistic and pragmatic to experiment, test, trial, error, and go through it. You need to keep both connected, which is super hard. Otherwise, it’s hard to make a real change, at least a sustainable one, I believe. 

Taylor Martin
[27:40] Let me ask you a question. We have our listeners out there. What is some advice you could give them to start becoming the changemaker that they want to become? 

Nina
[27:50] Ah, beautiful question, I would say that for me the first thing is inspiration. I mean, you need to find sources of inspiration to learn, to reflect on what resonates with you. You can read books, for example, Loves and Multipliers [ph], I don’t know if you heard about it, or Reinventing Organizations. It  can be podcasts, also, like yours, which is wonderful. It can be conferences. Whatever it is, I believe it’s important to connect with your heart about something that is important to you. 

[28:34] There’s someone saying it is self-connection. I think this is a second step. I would recommend self-reflective work to clarify what activities you love doing, when you feel useful, when you feel proud, as we said, what makes you super angry and the contrary. It will help you identify the social and environmental causes that are dear to your heart. 

[28:58] I guess the third tip I would say is alliance. I really believe that you can – anyone can activate their network and connect with people either outside their company, maybe they have inspiring missions and they want to better understand what are the realities and challenges. Within the company, the organization, they can create a group of people within the organization to join forces, to brainstorm, to start small but achieve big. 

[29:32] My recommendation is really all along the way, never be scared to ask and accept to be supported. It can be a coach. It can be a mentor. It can be somebody helping you to speak up at an event, whatever kind of support it is. I believe it is crucial to save time, first of all. Then it will enable you to dare to – to dare to fight the tough questions we don’t want to fight. The questions that will help us move forward in the direction we want. 

Taylor Martin
[30:06] I would underscore everything you just said there. To me, you compile those together, those actions, and you’re going to start to acquire that fuel that you speak of that you need, that drive. If you’re going to be pulling in information, whether it’s through books, or conferences, or podcasts, or whatever, you’re going to start feeding yourself into that energy of what you want to accomplish. Then once you start talking to others, and connecting, and building those alliances, and building those agreements, or our mentors, or coaches, or whatever, I can see that really starting to grow that inner energy, that inertia to start being more passionate about it. 

Nina
[30:47] Mm, and may I ask you a question? Sorry, I’m not very appropriate here, but I’m a coach. I’m wondering what helps you? You were speaking about fuel. What helps you to keep motivated on your path? For sure, you have your business. You do this podcast. You have many commitments. What helps you maintain energy, and commitment, and passion if I can ask? 

Taylor Martin
[31:14] That’s a great question. To be quite honest, it’s just my desire, my passion for business. Like I mentioned earlier, I’ve always loved the business, of what it is, the industry as a whole. When I was a young kid, I was working a job before I was legally able to because I just was so into it. It was in high school, my senior year. I was there half the day for school. Then I was able to leave school early to go work. I just love business and working. 

[31:47] To me, being a communicator, a designer, a communicator for Fortune 1000 companies, private companies, private companies, non-profits, government agencies, start-ups, you name it, I just started to realize that there’s things that need to change in our businesses and the way we operate. I was just having this conversation with somebody yesterday about this very thing. Sustainability is something that’s been growing exponentially over the last two or three decades, more so in the last three or four years. With the people part of the Triple Bottom Line, that’s something that’s always been put aside. It’s not something that was really addressed. 

[32:25] This pandemic really changed things in that category a lot. Now people about the great resignation, or the quiet resignation, it really boils down to do your employees love working where they work? Do they like that? Do they want to be there? Do they want to be part of this organization? If so, why? I feel like some of the things we’ve talked about today are ways to instill a better working environment for your employees, so they’re proud of where they work. They enjoy where they work. They’re willing to put that extra effort in. 

[32:58] Like you so wonderfully gave the example of that changemaker when he made and instilled all these changes into his organization and his team members and allowed them to make decisions, how much freer his life was. He got back all this time. It’s stories like that that I want people to hear. I hope that answers your question. 

Nina
[33:17] Yeah, it does, and congratulations for your commitment. I’m impressed about your passion and determination to learn, and to commit to business, and to meet people and experiment. Thank you for your answer. 

Taylor Martin
[33:32] Thank you, I love learning. I’m a voracious reader, like I said. I try to get a book in a week, but I just found out that that’s not sustainable. My brain just can’t take that much in. 

Nina
[33:42] What is your recommendation of the last book you loved? 

Taylor Martin
[33:46] Oh, [laughs], oh man, there’s so many, seriously. One that I’m halfway into right now is called Net Positive. Have you read it? 

Nina
[34:00] No, I’ve heard about it. I haven’t yet. 

Taylor Martin
[34:03] I coined the phrase in my own mind before I even saw the title of that book because I realized that we as a society are – like I always keep saying, we’re taking too many cookies out of the cookie jar with the way we have been operating businesses over the last century plus. I feel like we need – we can’t just be net zero. We have to be net positive. You can’t just go to zero when we’re so high above the temperature line. We have to be net positive to bring down that temperature line to what it once was 20, 30 years ago. I would say that would be the book I would recommend. 

Nina
[34:41] Nice, thank you, another one on my to book list. [Laughs] 

Taylor Martin
[34:48] Sounds great, that sounds great. If you ever want to know of any more, just email me. I’ll send you a list of a ton of books. You can just choose which one you want. 

Nina
[34:56] I’ll do that. Thank you. 

Taylor Martin
[34:58] Nina, so we’re wrapping up here. How can our listeners reach out to you or follow you on LinkedIn? 

Nina
[35:03] Yeah, so the first thing is on LinkedIn you can contact me, Nina Combales [ph]. You can also contact me through my website, armunia.me, A-R-M-U-N-I-A dot me. They can also subscribe because I do a monthly newsletter. I share insights, tools, case studies for professionals who want to act as changemakers in the organization. I do it every month because I really want to focus on quality rather than quantity and avoid a cluttering mailbox. I guess these two are the best ways. 

Taylor Martin
[35:40] That’s fantastic. For all you changemakers out there, or changemaker wannabes, reach out to Nina, or find your mentor, or find a coach that you can get access to and become the changemaker that we all need you to be. That’s my statement for this show. Nina, thank you so much for being on today’s show. 

Nina
[35:56] Thank you so much Taylor. I mean, it was a great time, great opportunity, and really once again, congratulations for your impact. I mean, I saw your website and what you do. You have a talent to promote diversity and changemaker in the world. Thank you and continue please. 

Taylor Martin
[36:14] Thank you for that, Nina. Over and out, everybody. 

[Upbeat theme music plays]
Female Voice Over 

[36:17] Thanks for tuning into the Triple Bottom Line. Your host, Taylor Martin, is founder and Chief Creative of Design Positive, a strategic branding and accessibility agency. Interested in being interviewed on our podcast? Then visit designpositive.co and fill out our contact form. If you enjoyed today’s podcast, we would appreciate a review on Apple podcasts or whatever provider you are logging in from. This podcast is prepared by Design Positive and is not associated with any other entity. We look forward to having you back for another installment of the Triple Bottom Line.