Bonus: Affirmative Action Roundtable Chat

We're switching it up! This week, we have some special bonus content for you!

On this episode, we brought together a bright group of Asian-American high-school seniors and college underclassmen from various backgrounds to open up about their thoughts on affirmative action. Following the roundtable, our team also does their own debrief between the two episodes.

Special thanks to Emmy, Hanh, Kevin, and Sadir for joining us!

This chat is a follow-up to Monday's "AAs on AA" episode where we discussed the ins and outs of affirmative action and recent developments on the status of AA in California.

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Transcript

Kevin  0:00  
I think a lot of the problems right now are like pretty intertwined. And it's like not really one problem that anyone can isolate. It's more like a convoluted puzzle that you have to like, kind of solve all at once, which makes it like pretty insurmountable to me.

Angela  0:15  
Hey, I'm Angela. Hey, I'm Alex. Thanks for listening to FRESH offthevote

Alex  0:18  
we're grassroots podcast focused on making politics exciting and accessible. Our

Angela  0:23  
team is 100% self identified Asian American Pacific Islander youth and

Alex  0:27  
we're ready to make waves ahead of the 2020 election and beyond. We

Angela  0:31  
created the podcast as a home for conversations on the different key issues of the US election and

Alex  0:36  
to discuss boating and and civic engagement for API's

Unknown Speaker  0:41  
by API's.

Alex  0:45  
Hey, everyone, welcome back to FRESH offthevote Today is our bonus episode. So every so often, based on the topic of our main episode, we might follow up on that week's Thursday or Friday. With some bonus content, usually a little bit more of like a personal in depth view of maybe the topic that we talked about in a more academic way, on Monday. And today, because our topic is around a freedom of action, we actually brought on four high school slash college students. So people who either just went through the college application process or people who are about to go through the process in the fall, we brought them all together, and they all had a roundtable discussion around affirmative action, what their stances are, what their views are, how to improve the policy. And really, just to hear their thoughts there from a variety of geographies or from a variety of again, different points in time on where they're at in the application process. And yeah, it was overall very enlightening. So Angela, do you ever when you went through the college application process, were you thinking about these issues as well? My thinking

Angela  1:51  
process going through the college admissions timeline was I guess, a lot more black and white based on what I heard from other classmates and other parents talking about affirmative action. I saw it as like this really big, scary thing looming in the sense. But in the meantime, let's just keep my head down and try to make it through the college admissions process alive and try to get the best grades and write a really good essay. And that's why I've been pretty impressed with the kind of responses for UConn today. It really goes to show how good high schoolers are these days with juggling not only applying for colleges and reading essays and keeping their grades up, but also participating in discussions and doing their research and trying to build in informed opinion, which is much more than I could have done at the time.

Alex  2:37  
No, I completely agree. I think their level of engagement with these issues, I was really impressed. And I think all of them were super involved in the discussion. A lot of them had pretty strong views coming in. And that made me super optimistic for the future. I think just thinking back on when I was applying and thinking back when I was going through the process, my views were nothing as close to being as formed as some of their stances, so

Angela  3:04  
it kind of makes you wonder what the heck you're doing. You are a high schooler. I feel like I was just not sent to you for a good

time that I was in high school. And he's going through the motions.

Alex  3:16  
No. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, without further ado, let's jump into the chat.

Thank you all for being here. If you could tell us and tell our audience who you are, where you're from all that and where you are in the college admissions process, like how far removed Are you like? Are you in college or in high school and maybe a little bit of your ethnic background talking a little bit about your Asian American identity after kind of that self introduction also state your stance on affirmative action like your just your high level? brief thoughts?

Emmy  3:50  
Hello, my name is me. I am a first generation Chinese American. I am a current senior in high school and I live in the suburbs of Richmond, Virginia. In general, my stances on affirmative action is that I am supportive of affirmative action. I believe it is a necessary process slash system in order for people to advance in society for people of color and women as well to advance in society.

Alex  4:18  
Cool, we can move to Hana.

Hanh  4:20  
Hello, my name is Hannah Lee and I am Vietnamese American. I'm a rising senior at manual Walker Governor's School. And I'm currently researching colleges right now and my stance on affirmative action. Well, when it comes to affirmative action, I like the idea that underrepresented groups can have the opportunity to succeed in sectors such as education, employment, although it is a bit unsettling that there are groups that are disadvantaged by affirmative action.

Alex  4:49  
Cool, Kevin.

Kevin  4:51  
Hi, guys. I'm Kevin. I'm 19 years old. I'm a second year at The Ohio State University. I'm a year or two out removed from college admissions. So it's been a while For me frustration Chinese as well, I guess I'll my stance on front of action I'm for it I do think it's a really necessary thing to have especially with like how higher education was in the past. And I guess is today even though all the studies have shown that like it disadvantages Asians more than any other people rather than saying that like Asian Americans are being disadvantaged more shows that like, as a community we're all like harder working we want to like achieve more so I think like it's a like if it is an evil it's a necessary evil and like I'm fully for it

Alex  5:31  
to not leave sit here.

Sadir  5:33  
I honestly there. I'm currently a incoming freshmen at New York University and I'm a first generation Bengali American and my stand stone affirmative action. Good. I am definitely for affirmative action because I believe it's doing its best job trying to address the systemic racism that underrepresented minorities have faced throughout history. So that's my stance on it.

Angela  5:54  
Alright, so to kick off the round table, what about we start with each of you guys telling us what you think? Affirmative Action is the reason why we wanted to ask this is because we realize that the definition may vary from person to person. So it'd be interesting to see what your guys's thoughts are.

Emmy  6:11  
I think affirmative action in general is a system meant to give like traditionally underrepresented groups, whether that's like minorities or in the way of gender, the opportunity to fair access in higher education or within like the workforce.

Sadir  6:30  
I think affirmative action is using race as a factor in the college admission process. And it's used as a tool to diversify college campuses throughout the nation.

Kevin  6:40  
Yeah, I mean, I agree with I think I'm more agree with Emmys definition. It's more used as like a way to help underprivileged communities and people who historically aren't represented in higher education, a chance to like get into places like a secondary education where historically they've ever been,

Alex  6:58  
I guess, if I was to tell you that historically, a lot of the court cases that have surrounded affirmative action have usually been not with the intention of helping underrepresented minorities get into these colleges A lot of it is more to verbatim diversify college campuses so in that there's no you know, intentionality behind giving opportunities to those who deserve those opportunities. So when it comes to diet, what are your What are your thoughts are kind of like nuance there?

Kevin  7:29  
Well, to me, I guess I was reading a little bit about it. I think the one that the case that comes up to me is Fisher versus University of Texas, where a I think like a white girl was like complaining about having like, I guess, like, higher than average si t scores, like had pretty good grades and she was rejected from UT. And she was upset because I think at the time, there was like, kind of like a racial quota for UT. I think 25% like African Americans and Hispanics and She felt like that locked her out of the system. And I guess like people utilizing like court cases and like utilizing the legal system to try to get around improving minorities and underprivileged communities is just like, it's the bad take in general. And, you know, why are you doing this? Like, what's the point, but to me doesn't really bode well. I feel like it's not a good thing to do.

Alex  8:22  
And I guess just to respond to your point there, there actually wasn't a racial quota per se, because racial quotas were banned in 1978. And that's actually like a really common misconception that like when I was going through this process, like I had no idea, right? Like, I thought it was like, you know, they have to take X percent of this, I presented that and to me, I was like, That's messed up. But he's actually been banned for a while. It's just that it's just very pervasive, I think, especially in like very elite high schools and stuff, you know, where people are like being really competitive with each other, they get thrown around a lot.

Kevin  8:53  
I guess. I didn't mean there was like a true racial quota. But I think a lot of like the like controversy surrounding affirmative action is They use race on top of merit based checking, which makes it kind of seem like it's racial quotas, but even though it's like, like not truly using quota systems Yeah, for me in high school when I was learning about this, it seemed really convoluted because it was kinda racial quoting, but like, also not so like, that was like a hard concept for me to wrap my head around,

Alex  9:18  
for sure. We can move kinda into the next one, which is specifically for me and Hannah. So you guys are about to go through the college application process in the fall common app actually just opened, right?

Angela  9:31  
Yeah, I

Alex  9:32  
feel like it gets early every year. So are you guys personally concerned about affirmative action negatively impacting your admissions process? Do you think it's gonna hurt your odds? Like how are you guys thinking about it?

Hanh  9:45  
To be honest, like, I'm not really too concerned mainly because I think affirmative action mostly impacts the applicant pool that as applying to elite colleges like the Ivy's although I am applying to a college that while isn't an ivy is predominantly white. So I'm a bit concerned for that specific college. But other than that, I'm generally just fine. I'm not really concerned.

Emmy  10:09  
I think going off what Hannah said like, I mean, while I do agree, I shouldn't be super concerned. I do feel like even though I am for affirmative action, I feel like it will negatively impact me in a way like I know that common misconception is that people of Chinese American or Indian American descent are often not benefited by affirmative action. And I sort of feel right now going through college apps that as a Chinese American, I'm in a way competing with people of my own race to get a spot even though there is no racial quota. I do feel like I am put into a disadvantage because I know there's a lot of other Chinese Americans who have a application that is as stronger even stronger than mine.

Angela  10:57  
So just as a follow up to the college students Did anything that the high schoolers say resonate with you? While you're recounting your experiences applying for college?

Sadir  11:09  
I definitely do agree that I felt that I had to compete against my own race my school as a larger concentration of Asian American in attending the school. And I definitely felt like I had to compete against like people who look like me.

Kevin  11:22  
Yeah, same with Sudhir. I my high school had the most amount of minorities in our like city. Yeah, I mean, like, to be honest, I wasn't really a good student High School. So like, it really didn't matter to me, because I know I wasn't getting into IVs anyway.

Sadir  11:37  
Um,

Kevin  11:38  
like, my grades weren't bad. They weren't like, like, just top tier. So I guess I kind of had like a defeated feeling about it. Literally. I can name 10 people often, like, top of my head that, like have better grades than me have more extracurriculars have like more prestigious merit to them. And I'm just like, yeah, I mean, it is what it is, you know. So I mean, like, I think I was more laid back about the process knowing that it didn't really matter. For me that I wasn't even going to, like be attending like Yale or like, like you pad or Harvard or whatnot. But I guess it did play a little bit into like the fear factor.

Alex  12:09  
Do the two of you guys like ever feel like because it has personally impacted you in science? Like because you are going through those applications and all that stuff? Like Do you ever feel guilt about feeling that way? Or do you ever feel like your friends talk about other people being like, under qualified and they only got it because they're raised or something like that? And how do you like kind of respond to that knowing that like, you are personally also kind of impacted by that?

Kevin  12:35  
Well, for me,

it was more like I never really thought that way. But it was more like this person didn't deserve to go in. And I think mainly for my friend group. It was like legacy admissions. And I think legacies is something that like, really hurt me, I guess, because I see people like, Oh, they have like triple legacy to an IV or like, like USC, I'm like, oh, what the heck like they're just in my okay. That's, that's cool, I guess, and especially being like first generation Americans that like, my parents didn't really go to an ivy they went to University of Lowell and like we didn't really have that like generational experience of living here and having like the credentials seeing that like, oh, like my grandfather, my great grandfather went here. So like, you should allow me to go in here you know, and I think legacies was the main issue for us rather than like affirmative action.

Sadir  13:22  
What about you sit here um, I didn't necessarily feel guilty because the people I surround myself with personally Well, they they shared the same like viewpoints on affirmative action as I did, but those views of oh they didn't deserve to get in definitely. Like it was definitely very prevalent nine migraine like nine my year for the previous years, like that mindset was definitely prevalent where I feel from attraction is so different from everyone else, because they don't understand why it's used. They just think it's helping x rays to get into College

Kevin  14:01  
kit is benefiting people that it should be. It's like overall done a good thing for like our like our nation as a whole and for like higher education. So it's like, if it's doing a good thing, then it's probably not something that I can control.

Emmy  14:17  
I think personally for me even going through the app process now, I no way want to forget that affirmative action exists. Because I've, if it raises a factor that I can't really control, like, it's just what I look like. I would rather spend my time thinking and focusing on things I could control, such as like the essays or what I put onto my application for extracurriculars. So I think looking at affirmative action right now, personally, I think I would rather just push it to the side and focus on things I could control.

Hanh  14:51  
I agree with me, there are many qualifiable people in my grade, and I think they all have the potential to go to where they want to go. And regardless of race. And so for me, I'm just trying to focus on how can I stand out from the whole applicant pool, instead of just saying, oh, because of this race, I probably will have a less chance I got someone who is another race.

Angela  15:16  
So so dear, I actually wanted to circle back to something that you mentioned, I thought was really interesting. And I think it gives a lot of context to the kind of answers that we're hearing today. So you said that when it comes to last year's college applications, the year above, you seem to have a more negative view on affirmative action, while your grade might have been more open minded when it came to these things. It's really funny because I'm actually from the same school district as you and I remember when I was applying to colleges, a lot of people in my grade shared the same sentiments of fueling affirmative action in a more negative light on there's a lot of rhetoric centered around what seemed to be like bitterness at the results of the college. decision process so I wanted to hear what your thoughts are on why that transition might have happened from the year above you to your current year right now was that mentality difference a gradual shift or was it a sudden change that just happened from one year to the next

Sadir  16:17  
it definitely was a sudden change because of your prior to mine at went from like Moscow crying to like prestigious colleges and like that like toxicity like being prevalent to like my grade being way more laid back. And even those who apply to those schools didn't feel the need to discredit others and then feel bad about themselves because they didn't get it but someone else did. I know a few cases where a from interaction might have played a role but there wasn't really a toxic talk about it. I think the reason why change is because it's trying to be less of like a grade white thing and more applying if you want to and like doing it because you want to do something rather than applying because Friends are playing. It's becoming more and more apparent as the years go on.

Angela  17:05  
That's That's really interesting. Yeah, like I said, it's always funny to hear the younger people's opinions now on those issues as compared to what I went through when I was in high school. Alternatively for the college students, do you think that your opinion has changed throughout the last few years? I guess this could be geared more towards Kevin, I feel like when you get into university and you have such different life experiences, and you did growing up in high school, it has the potential to change your opinions on a lot of different things. So I'm curious to hear

Kevin  17:34  
I'm not really I think, like in high school, like I didn't, affirmative action was a thing. I didn't really care about that. Now. It's like a thing that I know about, but it's like, I know, it's like, it's a good thing.

So I guess I lean more toward like, supportive, like supportive stance than like a negative stance.

Angela  17:53  
So it sounds like you went from being apathetic to perhaps more educated about the nuances of the of the subject matter.

Kevin  18:00  
Yeah, yeah, it was more like I knew it was a thing in high school but never really bothered to learn about it. It was more like I got I got to apply to college, right. So like, nothing really else mattered at that point. And then once I entered university, it was like, Oh, I have so much free time. I was able to like do time researching whatnot, stuff like that.

Angela  18:17  
And then so do you. I know you're not in college yet. But have you experienced any, like change in perspective during the application process?

Sadir  18:25  
My change of perspective, like I was, I've always been supportive of affirmative action, but I wasn't really sure why it was used at high school progressed on I definitely know why now than I did before. Gotcha.

Alex  18:39  
So this is an interesting question. Do you all think that affirmative action is a form of discrimination?

Hanh  18:47  
To some degree, I think affirmative action is a form of discrimination.

There's like Asian Americans, there's this you know, model minority enough surrounding them where society has this perception that Call Asian Americans are intelligent and easily capable of getting into prestigious colleges. But Asian Americans usually have to work harder than other racial groups. And even if they work harder, sometimes they don't receive the reward that matches their effort. But I think affirmative action makes sense because I believe that, you know, everyone should have the opportunity to succeed and you know, wherever someone goes like, it will be the perfect place for them. some concern that I have is like if affirmative action is kind of directed towards like balancing out a majority white population in education, employment, like, Why are Asians kind of getting paralyzed?

Alex  19:37  
Yeah, in a sense, like, the issues that Asians face going through that process is kind of just swept under the rug, which then you can kind of look into and analyze like, Okay, why are there such like a high population of Asians applying to these top schools and still getting in, right, like, if you look at the top schools, it's still pretty over indexed when it comes to the Asian population. It's the question of not only like, okay, is it more competitive for agents to get in. But then are we actually already over represented at these levels, which is interesting to think about?

Sadir  20:07  
I believe that there's a degree of discrimination in the process, but the way I perceive it is, as many more Asian Americans applied to these procedures, colleges, then click minorities. So when looking at that aspect of it, I don't think it's fair to say that there's preferential treatment of the races when there's such a higher concentration of Asian American applicants compared to African American applicants are lacking that the applicant?

Kevin  20:37  
Yeah, I think like, going back to the original question, like I guess it is a form of discrimination. But like, again, like I think I said in my introduction, if it's like an evil, I do believe it's necessary.

Alex  20:49  
You mentioned affirmative action is really like a like a necessary evil. Right. I want you to elaborate on that because I think that's important to discuss.

Kevin  20:56  
I think for me when you read into like, The backgrounds of like feminine fashion, like when it first got on the legal stage was the first ever affirmative action was a racial quota. And that itself, I do believe is the wrong way to go about things. But like it spurred a change and like educational systems were back then it was ridiculous number like predominantly white students, like literally no minorities in any higher education. But like that evil, I guess I would say, like ended up changing. Like the way higher education is perceived as, like a lot more minorities in the schools that allowed, like a more diverse populace into colleges and whatnot. And that in itself is like a good thing. And even though it spurned from something that wasn't the best of ideas, it was a step in the right direction, I would say, even though it was the right idea.

Angela  21:47  
Why do you guys think there's so much controversy surrounding affirmative action?

Emmy  21:51  
I think there's a lot of controversy because there's so many different opinions of how someone can see it. Like how we've been mentioning some people see it as form of reverse discrimination towards white people. And now there's the myth that it is even towards Asians, you have that side of the argument. And then you also have the side of argument that I think colleges might use and people who are supportive is that it's supposed to allow for people who are usually underrepresented to have equal opportunity to be able to succeed in higher education, and to have that ability to succeed further on in life. It seems that like a lot of times people think that if it doesn't benefit them, then they just don't want to care about it. And it's like the idea of sort of like single issue voters, but turn it on to affirmative action. So in a way, if they don't think it benefits them now, then they just won't care about it. But if they think it's working against them, they're really going to push for getting rid of affirmative action.

Alex  22:57  
What would you improve the current law policies and the way we view affirmative action today.

Hanh  23:03  
Something that I've always wondered was what is the dividing line for people who are mixed? Like I know that many mix applicants might hide, you know, one of their racial backgrounds that tend to be over represented for, you know, a higher chance of getting in, which kind of seems unfair, but, you know, what is the dividing line in that?

Emmy  23:23  
I think also to add on to that, like, we often categorize Asians as this like one huge group, but the most talked about are like Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese, but then there's also people from Pakistan or Afghanistan or Sri Lanka, like there's tiny groups within the broad big Asians category that are often just not represented at all. So I think in order to improve upon affirmative action, there needs to be a way to include people who are traditionally just very underrepresented even within the Asian population.

Hanh  24:00  
I read something on the internet about how this one person suggested that, you know, maybe there could be a race blind pool where you put in the people that are tend to be overrepresented. So maybe like Chinese Indians whites and then have another kind of section where it's like the race conscious pool, you put on all these like different ethnic groups that tend to not be represented in the campus population and kind of go off from there. Yeah,

Kevin  24:29  
I think personally, it's really hard to talk about stuff like this considering that like, it takes like a ton of research to look into it takes like a ridiculous number of people and like studies and whatnot. Again, I'm not like too knowledgeable but I think I agree with what everything has been said so far, and that we should have a better way to look at it but I feel like none of us really have like, like a really solid way to say for sure that oh, this is the right way to like do this.

Alex  24:56  
Yeah, and I know it's a heavy asked to ask you to solve affirmative action, but

Sadir  25:03  
I think something that can be improved on is looking at someone for economic status as well as race because I understand that cause you diverse, but we need to also look at the socio economical applicate because it wouldn't be fair for an affluent African American family to be compared to a poorer Asian American family because they were not afforded the same opportunity that I understand that it's trying to level the playing field, but it's also ignoring a huge question as to what about their socioeconomic background? What about their like finances and things of that nature, definitely to be addressed in the admission process for to be more fair, I kind

Kevin  25:42  
of don't agree with that. I think like having an economic background check is not really going to help. Mostly because like a lot of colleges are privatized. Now. If you're a marketing agent, right? And you see that like, oh, someone like is going to be able to come here and pay us like pretty well, right and then someone else, can't it really hurts the chances that like, the poor family could get into it. And I think that's the main reason why a lot of colleges right now are like economically blind, like you can put your your economic status just for like, like government aid but like colleges aren't allowed to, like make decisions based on your academic background.

Sadir  26:14  
Well, I understand that. But when you're looking at an applicant, and you're seeing like their extracurriculars, there's test scores and whatnot. And when you're looking at what opportunity they have, it wouldn't really be fair to compare the two because one person doesn't have nearly as much the resource to the next person. I understand colleges definitely do want students that can pay the full price, but again, they should definitely address that issue.

Kevin  26:37  
Yeah, I agree. I think a lot of the problems right now are like pretty intertwined. And it's like not really one problem that anyone can isolate. It's more like a convoluted puzzle that you have to like, kind of solve all at once, which makes it like pretty insurmountable to me.

But yeah,

Angela  26:53  
well, given all the convoluted information that we've had to sift through today, I think you guys have done a really good job in answering questions with your perspective. And with that in mind, can you guys speak on some takeaways that you learned from the conversation today? I like

Hanh  27:08  
what Kevin said about affirmative action being a necessary evil. You know, giving opportunities to a certain group of people may require the sacrifice of opportunities from another group, but it's for the benefit of increasing diversity and providing ways for people to succeed in life then, you know, by all means, go for it.

Kevin  27:29  
Yeah. For me, even though there's a lot of negativity against affirmative action all of us here I think we all have agreed that we're like for affirmative action and like, we're the race or like our like ethnicity is more likely to be targeted and we're like yeah, it's a pretty good thing even though like we might have suffered a little bit but the fact that like, people are kind of using it in a negative light to try to justify their own like personal gain is kind of weird considering that the group that's like more defected is like, okay with it and like wants it to be there. You know,

Sadir  27:58  
I took away like Understanding the other side a bit better, and how people like perceive the concept itself. Because again, like I understand both sides if I didn't really understand how people like personally felt about it affecting them and like something I took away was understanding better about how it like actually affected people because I know how it affected me, but I didn't know how it affected others

Emmy  28:20  
a takeaway for me that it's just super complicated. There's a lot of controversy surrounding the issue from both sides. And I really liked the point that Hannah brought up of being mixed race and how do you like really classify that and how people might want to hide that I think it's just an interesting concept that I probably will be exploring it a bit more. This conversation in general has really allowed me like more opportunity to learn more about affirmative action and to hear people's perspectives at different life stages in a way awesome.

Angela  28:57  
So that was our affirmative action Roundtable. Hope You guys enjoyed listening to our discussions as much as we did, and maybe even learn something I know I certainly did. Especially when I got to here so dears answered my question about the differences between the previous year when it came to applying for colleges and his current year, as someone who went to the same school district as him when I was in high school, it was really interesting to hear some of the cultural shifts that have taken place over the last few years.

Alex  29:27  
Yeah, no, I thought that was really insightful and it just to see how much can change over the course of one year, right. I don't know. It's really interesting. I thought everyone really knew there, which I thought was awesome. Me as well as Hannah two, I think both of them hit on some of these kind of hesitations around the policy, which I think kind of the candidates there of realizing that, you know, this in a way does impact me a little bit differently and perhaps in a little bit more of a dis favorable way. But I think having the machine To realize that yes, that is the reality. But at the same time, it's like unnecessary reality just shows how progressive their viewpoints are deep down. Yeah. And

Angela  30:09  
I think it's important to note that especially right now, it's not easy to state outright whether affirmative action is good or if it's bad, just because of just how complex the whole system is. There's a lot of value in critiquing this system and thinking about how we can make it better and listening to how it impacts people from both sides of the table, and encourage nuanced discussions like this. And I think we really saw that from our discussion today, especially with the depth of research at the college students and high schoolers

Alex  30:41  
showed for sure, for sure, I think it was interesting also to kind of see some of the misconceptions like they were all well educated on the topic and then either stuff, but I think sometimes you would hear a couple things that they would say that definitely is not the case. Right? It just goes to show that people who are are so closely affected by the process people who have looked into the issue and have done their research. Even some of these people don't exactly have all the grips on the topic and that's totally okay. Right. And I think it just shows that there's always more to learn around these topics. There's always more to engage in. And overall just be really

Angela  31:21  
obvious. It's a good reminder for us all to just stay vigilant when it comes to consuming information and sifting through important facts and opinions that are out there.

Alex  31:34  
Thank you so much for listening to FRESH offthevote we upload

Angela  31:37  
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Alex  31:39  
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Angela  31:48  
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Alex  31:52  
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Angela  31:58  
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Alex  31:59  
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai