Awakened in America
Awakened in America
S1 Ep #4: Antiracism
Hosts Z and Jess discuss what it means to be antiracist and potential pitfalls with the momentum the term is receiving right now.
You're listening to awaken in America
Speaker 2:On a journey to create dialogue about diversity,
Speaker 1:Inclusion and optimism.
Speaker 2:Welcome back listeners. We are here host Jess and hosts. XE. Hope everybody's having a great day. Today is episode three. We are discussing anti-racism and what that means, and just to start off with a thought in an article that came to my attention in the Atlantic about the potential pitfalls with the momentum behind white, progressive white people that are good intentioned. That's what I mean. When I say white, progressive, there's kind of a whole book about white fragility that Robin de Angela wrote that I referenced some times basically it means people who are white that think they're forward thinking things. They aren't racist on paper, they aren't, but it is still worth examining within yourself, implicit bias and acknowledging systemic racism. And, you know, that's kind of where I'm going with that when I speak about white progressives. But, um, the Atlantic article that I read was talking specifically about books about anti-racism that are outright. Now, there's one by dr. Abraham X Kendi called how to be an anti-racist. And I think it's flying off the shelves and as well as white fragility by Robin D'Angelo that I mentioned white people are trying to understand how to be better, how to be anti-racist. And there's a distinction there because not being racist, doing over, you know, a really hateful things is different than, um, actually being an anti-racist recognizing racism and standing up for it and trying to make changes. But the point in the Atlantic article, which I thought was relevant is there's a lot of momentum. It's become kind of almost a trend for people, white people to be protesting and buying books and doing the black square on their Instagram page and things like that. And I think by, by no means, am I saying those aren't good things, but I think it's important that white people don't sort of rely on those and say, now that I've done those things, I'm anti-racist, and that was the point that the article made too, is it takes a lot of, it's a lifelong process. I think it's a lifelong journey that we all need to be up for if we really want to embrace anti-racism and embrace this idea of wanting to do things that are going to change the current state. And how did you, I mean, I know all of this is relatively new for you too.
Speaker 1:Um, I know that many progressive whites even thinking about themselves
Speaker 3:In the same category as a racist would be like mind blowing because, you know, if you don't use, like you said, the N word, or, you know, if you don't do overtly racist things, right, then it would make sense to you that, well, I'm not a racist because I obviously don't do overly racist things. Right. But it's the not promoting qualified black candidates for senior level management. It's the going into a store and, you know, seeing a black person nearby and pulling your back closer that even happened to my husband, um, who was dressed in a business suit when he was a consultant and he works in it and a white woman pulled her bag closer to her in an elevator. So of course he was very offended
Speaker 2:That is mind blowing
Speaker 3:And, you know, um,
Speaker 2:And I just want to point out to my white friends, even if you feel like you're in touch with the African American community, because you have a friend who's African-American and you know, you have a relative who's African American or whatever, they probably have experienced racism and not that long ago. And you should check in with them on that because these are people, you know, I am finding this myself. I've always thought like, Oh, you know, I'm sure my friends, this stuff doesn't happen to my friends that are different colors, people of color, because you know, they're successful. They're great citizens of the world. They're, you know, they check all the boxes. I'm sure this stuff doesn't happen to them. It must happen to other people of color that I don't know.
Speaker 3:Right. But there is no distinction. Like I was saying, there's no distinction. You know, when, when, when they see our Brown skin, that's it that's the line. And, and I'm not gonna say that it's, I'm not going to say that. I think that whites are purposefully doing this. Okay. I, there are some whites that are racist and there are some double pers purposefully do discriminatory things. But I think that much of it is what we call implicit bias, which is basically, you've been so ingrained and indoctrinated based on central little child, what you learned about Barbie dolls or what you learned about your blonde here. Um, my daughter now loves that she's in love with Elsa and she's like, why is my hair not like elses? You know? Um, it's, it's, it's this constant indoctrination that white is better. And that Brown is actually negative. It's not that Brown is okay, it's that Brown is actually negative, right? So it's like every, you know, there were certain networks that were actually responsible for doing this, but you know, constantly showing, you know, if, if, if a white criminal committed the same crime, they wouldn't show their face. But if a black criminal committed the same crime, they would show their face on the news. Even if they were 14 or 15, a teenager just to like reinforce that Oh, black is negative. Right. So I think that that constant brainwashing is what I'm going to call it. Cause that's what it is that constant brainwashing has made many white people, just suspects of black people. And I give a perfect example of a black man who was killed outside of a Starbucks. Um, I'm trying to remember, I think it was in the Midwest, maybe Wisconsin or Ohio. I can't remember for sure. But he was waiting on a bitch that was outside of a Starbucks for his brother. They were meeting up and a manager in the Starbucks. Now I don't know why this person would call, like, they're not busy enough perhaps, but they called and this person wasn't homeless. They were just a normal black person sitting on a bench called the police about the black man sitting on the bench. And the police came, the man ended up dead as a result. Young man, I think the man was only in his maybe late twenties, something like that ended up dead. And now we ask ourselves, well, how did that happen? How did that happen? Well, because he was black, right? Because if a white person were sitting on the bench with a manager have called, right. So it's these, it's these biases that saying lack is negative. And then, because it's like this subconscious and brain washing type of thing, you don't even realize that you're doing this over and over and over and over again.
Speaker 2:And if somebody is a white person is saying, well, he shouldn't have been sitting on the bench or, well, he should have, you know, defending it, they're missing the point. The point is he shouldn't have been killed. Right. And if he were white, he wouldn't have
Speaker 3:Right. He probably would still be alive.
Speaker 2:And there was nothing, you know, actually one of the things I was listening to this reminds me of something, dr. Kennedy was saying the author of how to be an antiracist. He was about the impact of the George Floyd video. And he was saying, prior to that video, there might've been footage or other things, you know, injustice, criminal sort of police brutality events, or videos that people had seen. But it was easier to say, well, it happened because he did this or this person of color did this. So that's why it happened. Right. But the George Floyd video is different because you really can't find any reason for why that man lost his life. Right. And I think that's why it's taken, hold the way that it has for white people, you know? And, um,
Speaker 3:I think it's, I think that what the acknowledgement of, yes, there, there is systemic racism and yes, we, you know, we need to do something about, it needs to accompany an understanding of what the bias does to black people, right. And the fear, yes. The feet, the, um, the PTSD anxiety stress. Um, there was just a video the other day, literally I think yesterday about a black woman who was taking her daughters to a nail shop. They were like, I think 13 years and up or 12 years in, uh, teenagers, four of them, four girls, they were made, they were stopped by the police. They were in a parking lot. They were made to get out of the vehicle and all lay face down on the pavement with guns drawn. Um, and you know why? Because they had wrong information that the car was stolen. So it was not that car, the car was not stolen. And yet here were 14 agers length based on the ground were girls and their mother with guns drunk. So we have to ask ourselves, what kind of, what kind of longterm affects society do we want to have for our children? Do we want a society that's built on this fear, this, yeah. This, you know, police are supposed to be good. You know, there's supposed to be like the superheroes, but for the black community, that's, that's obviously not the case. Um, because too many of us have just faced racism for doing nothing, walking down the street. I mean, we have, we have accounts now, video accounts of police brutality on black people for absolutely no reason. And again, it goes back to the brainwashing that black people are not as human. They're not as worthy of being treated with respect. They, they don't deserve it. They don't require it feelings. Aren't important. You know, it's almost like that slave mentality. I hate to say it, but it really makes me think about slavery, how we were like the huddle, here's the price for cattle. Here's how much that person costs. So that mentality has that brainwashing has not left our society because a black life is valued less than a white life. Right. That's what that means. Otherwise. How could someone do that to another human being? Well, because you value them less, you're like a dog or less than a dog. So therefore you can get away with mistreating them like this and, and the, the, the stress of constantly being, um, surveyed, like, you know, it's like only you're thinking about who's watching us, my husband, you know, he he's concerned about what he does when he's in a store because people may be looking at him like he's going to steal something. Absolutely absurd. Like every day this happens. I go into department stores, I'm in the more expensive section and I hear it meaning which means they're following me. I mean, it's, and now I have to deal with that. Every time I go into the store. So I know before I get into the store, then I'm dealing with that. And I'm a paying customer.
Speaker 2:And more than that, I think it just is so personal when they know you. And I know the person that you are to hear this like real life example of the racism you deal with every day, you know, and you don't have a lot of opportunities to get to this point in a friendship or in a conversation with a friend, I think as a white person, because it's so uncomfortable and it's uncomfortable for you to acknowledge. And it's uncomfortable for me to hear, but it's so important that people in America, white people particularly hear it and understand this is still happening.
Speaker 3:It's real. It's like everyday real
Speaker 2:At our leg. I said everything like your S you know, you think of yourself as successful and educated and all that stuff. These are people that are your equivalent, but just because they're not white, they are dealing with this stuff that a lot of white people think ended with civil rights or the emancipation proclamation. You know, I mean, this is still happening every single day to the people, you know, and the people you love. And if you're able to have a conversation about it or dial into that, you will learn a lot from making a point to check in with your friend about experience they've had or how this whole movement is affecting them. And you can grow from that because then it does become personal. Then it does feel like it's happening within your circle. And you will be more incentivized to do something about it because you care about that person. And there's no avoiding it. It's not all that. It's not the people that I know now it's out there now. It's acknowledged it is the people, you know, and the people you love and the people you care about, you know?
Speaker 3:And, um, and like you said, acknowledgement, um, I, I told you about a couple of white friends of mine that, you know, with the whole black lives matter, uh, the protesting and everything that was going on, but I, you know, I didn't even get a phone call. I didn't get a text or anything to say, you know, Hey, how are you doing? Or, you know, you know, I know it's not your family member, but I'm still sorry that this happened to a person of color. Like nobody said that, but you, you said that. And, you know, and that's why I felt comfortable enough to, you know, share, share and express my true feelings with you, instead of just saying, yeah, you know, we're fine, you know, just dealing with it or, you know, whatever the case may be. Um, I actually took time to talk to you about it because it's important enough to talk about and, and yeah,
Speaker 2:Bringing it up too. It wasn't like, I didn't feel like it was appropriate to just be like, Hey, how are you today? Some really sad headlines,
Speaker 3:Right?
Speaker 2:Step. But like, I put it together finally, you know, that this was deserving of a serious change, you know, and a serious part of my life that I needed to learn about and dial into. And you were kind enough to give me that opportunity, you know, but to that end, I think a lot of white people are probably going what is appropriate, you know? And even myself, like I told you, I ran into a woman I know from the kids' school the other day. And I hadn't seen her since COVID and all of that, she's African American. And I was so excited to see her and we don't know each other, well, we always beside each other in passing, but it was like I was frozen. I mean, part of it was because my kids were freaking out and wanting to leave, but I couldn't collect my thoughts enough to be like, to express my condolences, my sympathy, my empathy for what's happening related to black lives matter, you know? And I felt guilty about that. And I was actually really mad, extra mad at my kids for not giving me space to communicate what I wanted to communicate. Cause I don't know when I'll see her again, you know what I mean? The schools are closed and everything else. So to that point, what do you think is appropriate? You know,
Speaker 3:Um, I think that, like I said, just being honest in some honestly say, but I just want to let you know that I think that this is crazy. It's insane. And, um, you know, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm awakening to the fact that this has been going on under my nose and I wasn't aware of it and this is impacting you. And now, you know, like, I'm just, I'm sorry, like, I'm sorry. I mean, and I'm sorry is very valuable. And just, just to make another point, I think it's important for people to consider the language that they're using with black and Brown people. If you have a grandchild, a biracial adopted child, um, a half sibling, whatever the case may be, you need to do discontinue the use of focusing on our complexion, on our hair, texture and focus on our character. It's insensitive. And we don't like questions like, is that your real hair? Of course, it's our real here. It's a test to our head who does that? It's the insensitive that dehumanizes people. And you add to the PTSD by constantly. Um, you, you're making us not just aware that we're different, but you're almost insinuating that we're not as good as you are. And your, and, and so you're giving us an inferiority complex. When in the back of our minds, we know we're not inferior, but it's just this constant nitpicking at our confidence and at our culture and at our physical being, it's this constant nitpicking that really is racist and it's, and it's not the racism that says you're an inward, right? It's the racism of the brainwashing. But you have to, you have to unlearn these things. You pull it to your friends, you owe it to biracial and multiracial family members. You owe it to your society as a human to learn these things. It's not okay to be like, well, I may have said, no, you know what you said? And if that person is in your Rolodex, you need to say, I'm sorry, you need to admit what you did so that that person can have healing and that so that you can have a context to move forward and say, now I understand, now I'm going to do better brushing it under the rug. Like we've been doing for years. Like people have been doing for years. That is why everything came to the surface and bubbled over this because doing that, that's not working.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think a lot of white people and myself included have felt held back by, you know, I will, I don't want to come off disingenuous by putting up a black lives matter sign or saying something to a friend I have of color, because I don't want them to think I'm just like being fake or, you know, we've never talked about anything like this before. So was it really random of me to reach out to that? Would you say, like, forget about that.
Speaker 3:I mean, you know, w whatever your feelings are, those are feelings of guilt, of shame, of whatever those are your feelings, right. That have your feelings. I think about the other person's feelings. That's what I would say to them.
Speaker 2:That's a really good takeaway. Yeah. I mean, I think it can't hurt and it might help, you know, so we need to be okay with putting ourselves out there more. And
Speaker 3:The benefit that comes from it, when you do that, like, you're actually allowing a person to feel like you see them. Right. And that's, I mean, how powerful is that? You know,
Speaker 2:And I think it's actually reminds me of a conversation we had once where you were saying, sometimes you feel like you have to have a separate conversation, a separate kind of a conversation with a white person versus an African American person and, or a person of color. And I feel like that was news to me. You know, that, that was, again, still a thing that you don't feel like you can talk about the same things.
Speaker 3:Right. You know, because, you know, I think I was talking about like how barbecues or, you know, work functions, uh, that many, many white people tend to focus on their accomplishments and their money and things like this. You know, whereas black people, we feel accomplished. Um, but because of the oppressive circumstances that we have faced in this country, we have learned to identify ourselves by so much more. So we don't need to talk about our money. We don't need to talk about what jobs we have, because we know that that's not where our worth lives. If we believed that, then we would really be screwed. So you have to believe so much more about ourselves because just because you're not giving us the managerial position doesn't mean I'm not qualified to be a manager. It means to me the position. Right. So we don't need to focus on those things. What we focus on is building other, up, giving each other encouragement and, um, yeah. And keeping our family ties strong, what, you know, so that's, that's, what's important to us. And so care we test, you know, um, and part of that self care is also being able to talk to each other and be real about the things that we're facing, because you know, part of it is just, I mean, I'll be honest with you is that I was careful, even in the language that we spoke, you know, in my texts, because I was like, okay, white fragility, baby steps. And I heard about the book, you got to kind of test the audience. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't actually have a phrase for it, but I knew that, Oh, you gotta be a little bit careful. And it's kind of like what you said, you said, I noticed that I am kind of like that with my kids. And I said to you, well, you know, they're still young. I said, but yeah, we don't have that opportunity coddling. Yeah. Yeah. I said, we can't afford to, this is actually a word for it. We can't afford to mollycoddle our kids, because we know that society is going to look at a nine year old boy and then pretend he's a man. If he does crime as an white nine year old boy, do you think that the same thing happens to a black child that does that as a white child? No, let's not. So we can't afford to mollycoddle our children. We have to from an early age and it's not, Oh, black people are so strong that it's because we have to be for a survival
Speaker 2:And set of skills. And I remember you saying about in that same conversation we had where I said, I feel like I caught all my kids sometimes. And it occurred to me that that's a privilege that I'm able to do that. Um, and I remember you saying to that, it's almost like as an African American mom, you have like this taking away of their innocence at an earlier age because you have to teach them things or skills or make them aware of how the world works right. For before their white counterpart, you know, because it doesn't affect kids. So you know, it, it's not a
Speaker 3:Yes. And then once again, you know, then we had the brainwashing of white teachers, even, you know, about the potential of black children, you know, it's like, um, and once again, it's, it's this whole psychological thing that is indoctrination and it's brainwashing. It's just being, it's like, if you showed a picture over and over and over again, that's negative. Right? And like, like you saw a black person, like let's say a cartoon of a black person stealing something and in a white person doing something constructive, if you show them that over and over and over again, and the time you're like, you know, five, four or five years old, then you're gonna start to believe the picture. And that's, and I feel like that's the frame that our founders kind of created. And, you know, you know, with the United daughters of the Confederates, like with the public schooling education and how they tried to make slavery look like it was a positive thing. Um, and how the, you know, the Southern Confederates were like martyrs, um, that, that whole systemic indoctrination creates people then. And that's, that's why you and I are doing the podcast. Cause we're like, this can't continue because it's going to impact our children. This brainwashing needs to stop somewhere. Right.
Speaker 2:So the anti-racist takeaway I would have as, as dr. Kennedy mentions in his book is I anti-racism is seeing racism and having a problem with it. So we white people, you might consider yourself not racist, but that's different than being anti-racist. If you want to get behind the anti-racist movement, it's a shift in thinking and it doesn't come by just reading a book, it's actually having a problem with it. And speaking up, making people feel uncomfortable if that's what it takes. And I'm sure this is going to take a lot of Finessin and trial and error probably. Um, I mean, I feel like I've dabbled in this before calling people out for inappropriate things, but certainly not to the extent that I plan to now, you know, moving forward in my life. But, um, I feel like I'm a little bit further down, you know, my journey on this path and some of my white friends. So for those starting out, it's, it could be as simple as just having this conversation with your friends of color and opening that dialogue so that you can understand the situations they've been in. And then when you see it happening, again,
Speaker 3:Learning some history so that no, you're not, uh, so that you have some, some understanding of why things are the way they are so that you can empathize with the things that we are experiencing.
Speaker 2:Right. And I remember when we first started this and I said, where should I start? And you were like, honestly, I feel like you need to read about the boats that the slaves were taken to the colonies on and the conditions.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And you wanted to pick up like,
Speaker 2:It's like ready to pick up like dr. King and like, yeah, like this, you're like, no, you don't
Speaker 3:Get again.
Speaker 2:And yeah. And read, you know, accounts and people, you know, being chained and having no bathroom deprecating where they, you know, in the hole that they were, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like a black Holocaust. I mean, I, you know, I'm not trying to steal that away from Jewish people, but in a sense of that, millions of us died just on the journey over and continue to die once we got here, um, it's a Holocaust that's not talked about in this country. And, um, and like I said, I think that in embracing and understanding that piece, then we can also understand, we have Hispanic children, uh, ages now, native Americans. And what happened with them really progressing when we're repeating, we're just going in a circle, actually on shine. They said, it's movement, but it's not progression me going in a circle. It's interesting, you know, 50 years from now, do we want our kids to be having these same conversations, but do we want to be someplace else? Right. Not necessarily Mars, but, you know, although my kids would love that. I think they ask about that a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think it was, um, James Baldwin, who said in his book, something about white people are trapped in a history. They don't understand. And until they understand it, they can't be set free, you know, something along those lines. It wasn't exactly that part, the set free part I made up. But, um, something like that. Yeah. That's, that's the point. And I think, um, we're at a point where we can do it and it's going to be uncomfortable and it's going to require effort and a shift in mindset and a lot of inner dialogue taking a look at yourself, you know, and examining parts of yourself that you've never really examined before. Cause you haven't had to, um,
Speaker 3:I understand that I want, you know, the white progressives as you called them, you know, I want them to also understand that, you know, that blacks understand that there are whites out there who don't agree with what has gone on. And, um, and we also understand that much of this is new for you. Okay. So we do understand that you may need to take baby steps, but what we want you to do is to still engage us, you know, still engage us. And, and don't think that this problem is insurmountable. We've unified to do certain things, not the masks, but we've unified to do things. So we do it again. We all work together. It can maybe happen faster instead of it taking like, I don't know, a decade or something like let's work together so that we can make these changes in a timeframe that we can actually see the progress. Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that's a great takeaway. And actually on that note, it's actually really hard for me sometimes too, to remember the optimism part of our podcast, because this is such a heavy topic. And, um, I think that's just important for people to understand, you know, who we're listening to. Mainly, you know, the five friends I have that are kind enough to do it.
Speaker 3:Mmm.
Speaker 2:All of you out there. No, but seriously, I think we need to treat this seriously, this topic, but understand that there is there's hope, hope. Yeah. And remember that when it feels insurmountable and it feels to have the in to bag to deal with, and you kind of just want to revert back to, you know, your white, progressive place and not push yourself. We have to kind of remember that this is a movement and this is going to be written about in the history books. And this is a chance to make changes, starting from whatever point you are, you know, in the journey, if you are willing and open to making those changes in your life. That's great. And that's, what's gonna make a difference, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 3:Being on the right side of history so that you can tell your children, you know, what you did to change things. I mean, how powerful is that, you know, to be able to express that to your children and say, you know what, there wasn't justice and this is what I did about it. And having, you know, that's, to me, that's, that's what it's all about really well guys, it has been great speaking with you today about anti-racism and what it means, what it means to us. We hope that it has been empowering and enlightening for you. It was a very heavy topic. It was a heavy topic for us to discuss amongst ourselves. And we appreciate you listening, and we appreciate you passing on this information. It is so vital to pass this information along and not just keep it to yourselves. So
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't get in your own way. Don't overthink. It. Don't feel like you're, um, disingenuous or not able to have these conversations among anybody white, other white friends, people of color, you know, feel like you can, uh, you can make a difference just by socializing it.
Speaker 3:Yes. Just take first step.
Speaker 1:Thanks everyone. Thank you for listening to awakened and America. If you enjoy today's podcast, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. You can also find us on Instagram at awakened in America. That's awakened underscore in underscore America and remember be mindful, be grateful. And most of all be you.