{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":59.151,"endTime":60.17100000000001,"body":"There we go."},{"startTime":60.492000000000004,"endTime":62.692,"body":"Well, welcome to Mormons on Mushrooms."},{"startTime":62.813,"endTime":68.635,"body":"We usually don't say that at beginning of an episode, but this might be our first one that"},{"startTime":62.813,"endTime":68.635,"body":"we put on YouTube."},{"startTime":68.635,"endTime":73.23700000000001,"body":"So trying to be a little bit more on our game here."},{"startTime":73.37700000000001,"endTime":74.818,"body":"But welcome to Mormons on Mushrooms."},{"startTime":74.818,"endTime":75.604,"body":"My name is Mike."},{"startTime":75.604,"endTime":76.618,"body":"I'm one of the hosts."},{"startTime":76.618,"endTime":81.741,"body":"And I'm joined here by Stephanie and Kelly, who've been on the podcast several times."},{"startTime":81.741,"endTime":87.743,"body":"Stephanie, who has hosted several episodes and cannot wait to chat."},{"startTime":88.399,"endTime":93.22200000000001,"body":"Stephanie, why don't you start and just give people a little introduction to you."},{"startTime":93.22200000000001,"endTime":94.80199999999999,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":94.962,"endTime":101.362,"body":"So I left Mormonism about three years ago, which isn't very long."},{"startTime":101.542,"endTime":103.56200000000001,"body":"And I know that crazy."},{"startTime":103.56200000000001,"endTime":104.481,"body":"feels like."},{"startTime":104.481,"endTime":112.386,"body":"remind me, sorry, when you first came on, you weren't when you were first a guest, you"},{"startTime":104.481,"endTime":112.386,"body":"were very recently out, right?"},{"startTime":112.386,"endTime":113.68299999999999,"body":"Or OK, yeah."},{"startTime":113.68299999999999,"endTime":114.237,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":114.237,"endTime":118.23400000000001,"body":"So I guess it's been, it's in like March-ish, it'll be four years."},{"startTime":118.23400000000001,"endTime":120.807,"body":"So guess it's been like three and a half years."},{"startTime":121.608,"endTime":127.51100000000001,"body":"And I, yeah, I had an experience with mushrooms as a fully believing Mormon."},{"startTime":127.51100000000001,"endTime":135.042,"body":"And after that experience, I was like, my God, I'm in a cult and left shortly after."},{"startTime":135.042,"endTime":140.23000000000002,"body":"And now I'm kind of still in like my transition phase, like figuring out"},{"startTime":140.23000000000002,"endTime":142.45,"body":"where I'm going from here."},{"startTime":142.69,"endTime":154.61,"body":"But I just post a lot of like religious trauma content online and kind of I'm in that"},{"startTime":142.69,"endTime":154.61,"body":"space a little bit as well as the psychedelic space as well."},{"startTime":154.61,"endTime":160.286,"body":"But I haven't really quite landed anywhere yet, but that's kind of where I'm headed in my"},{"startTime":154.61,"endTime":160.286,"body":"life."},{"startTime":160.96300000000002,"endTime":161.664,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":161.664,"endTime":164.347,"body":"And well, thank you and thank you for being back on here."},{"startTime":164.368,"endTime":166.551,"body":"And Kelly."},{"startTime":167.38600000000002,"endTime":180.179,"body":"Hey, I'm Kelly and I left Mormonism like 10 years ago and I took mushrooms for the first"},{"startTime":167.38600000000002,"endTime":180.179,"body":"time six years ago."},{"startTime":180.56,"endTime":186.786,"body":"And I've talked with Stephanie on this podcast about journeying through hell realms with"},{"startTime":180.56,"endTime":186.786,"body":"psychedelics."},{"startTime":186.786,"endTime":191.089,"body":"And I feel..."},{"startTime":191.98000000000002,"endTime":201.755,"body":"Like I'm more, guess we talked about on the last conversation, maybe like further down the"},{"startTime":191.98000000000002,"endTime":201.755,"body":"road because it's been longer since I've left and more like settled in where I'm at with"},{"startTime":201.755,"endTime":203.16500000000002,"body":"my spirituality."},{"startTime":203.16500000000002,"endTime":204.69600000000003,"body":"And yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":204.69600000000003,"endTime":208.639,"body":"You could tell me more if there's something specific I should include about myself, but."},{"startTime":208.639,"endTime":209.779,"body":"is good for now and it'll come up."},{"startTime":209.779,"endTime":218.59199999999998,"body":"mean, one of things I'll say about you, Kelly, is I do think I left the church around a"},{"startTime":209.779,"endTime":218.59199999999998,"body":"similar time, but I feel like you've gone through some like of the phases quicker than me."},{"startTime":218.59199999999998,"endTime":219.142,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":219.142,"endTime":220.04200000000003,"body":"Like you."},{"startTime":220.902,"endTime":226.36599999999999,"body":"I feel like, you know, for a while, I don't know how to describe it."},{"startTime":226.36599999999999,"endTime":237.079,"body":"I just feel like you've you've had like a lot of lived experiences that have really"},{"startTime":226.36599999999999,"endTime":237.079,"body":"informed where you're at and you have a very embodied sense that really comes through that"},{"startTime":237.079,"endTime":238.265,"body":"I."},{"startTime":238.265,"endTime":243.16700000000003,"body":"One of the reasons why you're back here on the episode, I just love to hear your"},{"startTime":238.265,"endTime":243.16700000000003,"body":"perspective."},{"startTime":244.091,"endTime":244.973,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":244.973,"endTime":251.385,"body":"And you just you have been more recently, like you just recently got divorced, right?"},{"startTime":251.385,"endTime":251.88100000000003,"body":"Just"},{"startTime":251.88100000000003,"endTime":253.16199999999998,"body":"we're in separation right now."},{"startTime":253.16199999999998,"endTime":253.41199999999998,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":253.41199999999998,"endTime":255.23200000000003,"body":"But, yeah."},{"startTime":256.053,"endTime":266.838,"body":"And so I think that's maybe part of it too, is there's so much like solo exploration now"},{"startTime":256.053,"endTime":266.838,"body":"that I think is a big part of it where it's, you know, had a beautiful relationship and we"},{"startTime":266.838,"endTime":272.52,"body":"explored a lot in ex Mormonism together, but you're still kind of as a, exploring as a"},{"startTime":266.838,"endTime":272.52,"body":"unit."},{"startTime":272.52,"endTime":275.672,"body":"And so now it's finally this time when it's like, wait, what do I want?"},{"startTime":275.672,"endTime":278.733,"body":"I mean, I had the experience, I was alone this last weekend."},{"startTime":279.543,"endTime":284.007,"body":"And kind of going through that thing of like, I'm not used to being alone, you know?"},{"startTime":284.007,"endTime":288.48,"body":"And like wrestling with, do I really want to do this or do I want to do this or don't want"},{"startTime":284.007,"endTime":288.48,"body":"to do this?"},{"startTime":288.48,"endTime":299.539,"body":"And find this like, well, I only have to answer to myself, but even that is hard to do"},{"startTime":288.48,"endTime":299.539,"body":"when you've never really been alone or had to tune into your own moral compass."},{"startTime":300.986,"endTime":302.639,"body":"It's the beginning of a whole new journey."},{"startTime":302.639,"endTime":303.389,"body":"Yeah, here we go."},{"startTime":303.389,"endTime":305.18,"body":"Buckle up, buckle up."},{"startTime":307.581,"endTime":313.072,"body":"And Stephanie, are, so you have Stephanie Anne again, right?"},{"startTime":313.072,"endTime":314.58299999999997,"body":"Is the Instagram?"},{"startTime":314.883,"endTime":319.104,"body":"And before we hit record, we were going to start talking about some of this stuff."},{"startTime":319.104,"endTime":322.565,"body":"you, you, you are a content creator."},{"startTime":322.565,"endTime":328.409,"body":"I mean, with your hair styling and now your ex Mormon account, but I will."},{"startTime":328.409,"endTime":332.775,"body":"was coming up because today you had posted a reel of some of the comments you were getting"},{"startTime":328.409,"endTime":332.775,"body":"for this."},{"startTime":332.775,"endTime":335.058,"body":"And I think it's going to tie into our conversation today."},{"startTime":335.058,"endTime":337.316,"body":"So can we talk about that first?"},{"startTime":337.316,"endTime":339.017,"body":"Yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":339.017,"endTime":349.671,"body":"So it was just a reel that was like a compilation of like all of the, I guess you would"},{"startTime":339.017,"endTime":349.671,"body":"say, all the rude comments, all the mean things that people say to me."},{"startTime":349.671,"endTime":353.933,"body":"And I just compiled them all together and put them in a reel."},{"startTime":354.853,"endTime":366.118,"body":"Just to sort of highlight how, you know, it seems like being an ex-Mormon, the only way to"},{"startTime":354.853,"endTime":366.118,"body":"really do it and be able to"},{"startTime":367.438,"endTime":378.53499999999997,"body":"you know, live peacefully in Utah, especially is if you continue to kind of like play the"},{"startTime":367.438,"endTime":378.53499999999997,"body":"game, like continue to play by the Mormons rules, which is like, okay, if you're going to"},{"startTime":378.53499999999997,"endTime":380.246,"body":"leave, you got to do it quietly."},{"startTime":380.246,"endTime":381.676,"body":"You got to be really nice."},{"startTime":381.676,"endTime":394.798,"body":"And you, you have to, you know, don't speak out about any of the trauma that you've had or"},{"startTime":381.676,"endTime":394.798,"body":"any of the abuse that you experienced because we have to remain comfortable as Mormons."},{"startTime":394.798,"endTime":398.71999999999997,"body":"It's your job still as ex Mormons to make sure we're comfortable."},{"startTime":398.71999999999997,"endTime":408.387,"body":"Otherwise, you know, you're going to be ostracized or you're going to be shunned or, you"},{"startTime":398.71999999999997,"endTime":408.387,"body":"know, you're going to get all of these horrible comments on the internet, stuff like that."},{"startTime":409.188,"endTime":411.138,"body":"And I debated for a minute."},{"startTime":411.138,"endTime":413.131,"body":"I'm like, should I, should I post these comments?"},{"startTime":413.131,"endTime":414.432,"body":"Like, does this seem too petty?"},{"startTime":414.432,"endTime":419.295,"body":"Like, does this seem like I'm just being like a little, you know, like a mean girl, like a"},{"startTime":414.432,"endTime":419.295,"body":"little bitchy bitch?"},{"startTime":419.295,"endTime":423.972,"body":"And I thought about it I was like, first of all, you know,"},{"startTime":423.972,"endTime":428.286,"body":"I think there's a difference between being nice and being loving."},{"startTime":428.687,"endTime":433.091,"body":"And I'm like so over being nice."},{"startTime":433.432,"endTime":437.616,"body":"know, nice is essentially like, let's continue to make the Mormons comfortable."},{"startTime":437.616,"endTime":445.404,"body":"But what feels more loving to me is being like, I will 150 % call out this bullshit."},{"startTime":445.404,"endTime":448.046,"body":"Like there are so many people who are."},{"startTime":448.346,"endTime":451.157,"body":"have been harmed by the church who are still being harmed by the church."},{"startTime":451.157,"endTime":458.83099999999996,"body":"And if like ex-Mormons, we just continue to play by the Mormon's rules of like being nice,"},{"startTime":451.157,"endTime":458.83099999999996,"body":"quote unquote, it's just gonna continue, you know?"},{"startTime":460.152,"endTime":462.893,"body":"So that was my thought process behind that."},{"startTime":462.893,"endTime":470.637,"body":"like, I just, I feel like even though according to our Mormon indoctrination and our"},{"startTime":462.893,"endTime":470.637,"body":"Mormon upbringing, this would not be a nice thing to do."},{"startTime":470.637,"endTime":473.20799999999997,"body":"It feels like the right thing to do, you know?"},{"startTime":473.48699999999997,"endTime":478.06399999999996,"body":"When you said not being petty, I mean, what's wrong with the little pettiness every now"},{"startTime":473.48699999999997,"endTime":478.06399999999996,"body":"and then?"},{"startTime":478.06399999999996,"endTime":479.046,"body":"what I'm saying, yeah."},{"startTime":479.046,"endTime":484.602,"body":"There's almost like this purity complex that I'm like repulsed by."},{"startTime":484.602,"endTime":486.765,"body":"know, anything that's like, you can't be petty."},{"startTime":486.765,"endTime":490.008,"body":"have to be, you have to be all, only the good things."},{"startTime":490.008,"endTime":491.95,"body":"I'm like, hell no."},{"startTime":494.01,"endTime":495.411,"body":"Thank"},{"startTime":495.411,"endTime":498.652,"body":"like, it's the church that makes those rules, right?"},{"startTime":498.652,"endTime":501.573,"body":"Like, you can leave and not talk about it."},{"startTime":501.573,"endTime":503.08299999999997,"body":"Like, what's the phrase?"},{"startTime":503.08299999999997,"endTime":505.31399999999996,"body":"You can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone."},{"startTime":505.75399999999996,"endTime":509.60499999999996,"body":"But I mean, imagine saying that too about a relationship."},{"startTime":509.60499999999996,"endTime":518.058,"body":"I mean, I had this experience a few months ago where I was realizing how much the church"},{"startTime":509.60499999999996,"endTime":518.058,"body":"meant to me in my life."},{"startTime":518.058,"endTime":522.259,"body":"I mean, for 32 years, it meant more to me than anything."},{"startTime":523.063,"endTime":524.686,"body":"Like I was in it, I lived it."},{"startTime":524.686,"endTime":531.815,"body":"And so to have a relationship with something so deep and then to say, okay, once you leave"},{"startTime":524.686,"endTime":531.815,"body":"it, you can't talk about it anymore."},{"startTime":532.677,"endTime":534.058,"body":"that's bullshit."},{"startTime":534.352,"endTime":543.042,"body":"Right, and imagine any other sort of abuse or trauma to have somebody who leaves an"},{"startTime":534.352,"endTime":543.042,"body":"abusive situation and for the rest of the world to just be like, like you need to get over"},{"startTime":543.042,"endTime":543.333,"body":"it."},{"startTime":543.333,"endTime":544.464,"body":"You need to leave it alone."},{"startTime":544.464,"endTime":545.7950000000001,"body":"Like you can't talk about that."},{"startTime":545.7950000000001,"endTime":548.538,"body":"Like that would not fly for two seconds."},{"startTime":550.253,"endTime":558.3770000000001,"body":"Well, and so speaking of like getting over it, because I think that's what, you know, part"},{"startTime":550.253,"endTime":558.3770000000001,"body":"of this podcast has been, you know, so this might be the first one that we release on"},{"startTime":558.3770000000001,"endTime":561.0690000000001,"body":"YouTube, but we've had almost 200 episodes."},{"startTime":561.409,"endTime":564.451,"body":"Just on the regular platforms."},{"startTime":564.451,"endTime":566.222,"body":"And it's been mostly about this."},{"startTime":566.222,"endTime":567.2520000000001,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":567.533,"endTime":569.254,"body":"We're at the state, we're angry at the church."},{"startTime":569.254,"endTime":573.486,"body":"We've we're, we're, processing our bitterness towards our experiences or trying to reframe"},{"startTime":569.254,"endTime":573.486,"body":"them."},{"startTime":573.486,"endTime":576.908,"body":"But then it's kind of like this, okay, but now what do we want to stay in this space?"},{"startTime":576.908,"endTime":577.908,"body":"We want to move forward."},{"startTime":577.908,"endTime":579.212,"body":"And I find that I kind of."},{"startTime":579.212,"endTime":582.6930000000001,"body":"go through cycles where sometimes it feels like I can leave it behind."},{"startTime":582.6930000000001,"endTime":585.513,"body":"Sometimes I feel like I can move forward."},{"startTime":585.513,"endTime":590.5630000000001,"body":"And then sometimes it's like, get roped back into it I get angry for a while and it goes"},{"startTime":585.513,"endTime":590.5630000000001,"body":"like that."},{"startTime":590.5630000000001,"endTime":598.115,"body":"And so I'd love to hear maybe from you and Kelly on this on like, what, cause I would love"},{"startTime":590.5630000000001,"endTime":598.115,"body":"to be over it."},{"startTime":598.115,"endTime":603.2860000000001,"body":"I would love to not have to talk about it anymore, but at the same time, I do kind of like"},{"startTime":598.115,"endTime":603.2860000000001,"body":"talking about it."},{"startTime":603.2860000000001,"endTime":605.1170000000001,"body":"So I don't know."},{"startTime":605.1170000000001,"endTime":607.337,"body":"Is that enough of a question?"},{"startTime":607.337,"endTime":608.2470000000001,"body":"I guess."},{"startTime":610.5260000000001,"endTime":619.134,"body":"I mean, could say Stephanie and I have talked a lot about this and I feel like we did two"},{"startTime":610.5260000000001,"endTime":619.134,"body":"completely different, well, we had very different journeys of leaving the church."},{"startTime":619.134,"endTime":631.394,"body":"Like I very slowly realized that the church wasn't true and then like gently transitioned"},{"startTime":619.134,"endTime":631.394,"body":"and then I had like, you know, a year and a half of faith transition and then my"},{"startTime":631.394,"endTime":636.268,"body":"ex-husband and I left together and then a couple of years later we got divorced."},{"startTime":636.268,"endTime":638.4240000000001,"body":"And I know that Stephanie's was like,"},{"startTime":638.4240000000001,"endTime":642.296,"body":"all at once, like glass shattering, which I'll let you speak to your experience."},{"startTime":642.296,"endTime":653.341,"body":"But what happened for me was like, I left in my twenties and when I realized it wasn't"},{"startTime":642.296,"endTime":653.341,"body":"true, it was such a relief to just be like done with the burden of the church, of like"},{"startTime":653.341,"endTime":659.623,"body":"going to church and pretending that I cared about all the things that you have to pretend"},{"startTime":653.341,"endTime":659.623,"body":"to care about as a believing Mormon."},{"startTime":660.5440000000001,"endTime":665.826,"body":"And so I was just so excited to be able to not have to think about it anymore."},{"startTime":665.8660000000001,"endTime":672.2700000000001,"body":"And so I took like a long time off of just like, my God, like kind of a teenager, like"},{"startTime":665.8660000000001,"endTime":672.2700000000001,"body":"that's so dumb."},{"startTime":672.2700000000001,"endTime":673.1800000000001,"body":"I'm so over it."},{"startTime":673.1800000000001,"endTime":673.791,"body":"Who cares?"},{"startTime":673.791,"endTime":678.106,"body":"I wasn't trying to be spiritually bypassing."},{"startTime":678.106,"endTime":684.3670000000001,"body":"I just genuinely was like, sort of like, there's such cooler things to talk about or think"},{"startTime":678.106,"endTime":684.3670000000001,"body":"about."},{"startTime":684.3670000000001,"endTime":687.6890000000001,"body":"That was sort of like my attitude for several years."},{"startTime":687.6890000000001,"endTime":690.26,"body":"And I think that that was what was right for me."},{"startTime":691.0010000000001,"endTime":693.082,"body":"But then it wasn't until..."},{"startTime":693.1320000000001,"endTime":707.476,"body":"my journey had taken me all the way to like where, and maybe I talked about this in our"},{"startTime":693.1320000000001,"endTime":707.476,"body":"last conversation, where I felt like I had finally arrived at the promised land of, this"},{"startTime":707.476,"endTime":711.8000000000001,"body":"was three years ago, so it was when Stephanie was leaving the church."},{"startTime":711.8000000000001,"endTime":718.966,"body":"I found myself living with an intentional community up outside of Seattle on Bainbridge"},{"startTime":711.8000000000001,"endTime":718.966,"body":"Island with."},{"startTime":719.2420000000001,"endTime":731.3860000000001,"body":"like an elderly lesbian couple in their seventies that were running this intentional"},{"startTime":719.2420000000001,"endTime":731.3860000000001,"body":"community, doing goddess worship, you know, pagan wheel of the year rituals."},{"startTime":731.706,"endTime":741.36,"body":"And it was like on the outside, it was reflecting back to me so much of what resonates"},{"startTime":731.706,"endTime":741.36,"body":"with me spiritually."},{"startTime":741.36,"endTime":743.062,"body":"And yet,"},{"startTime":743.062,"endTime":754.1850000000001,"body":"Even though I was living with these incredibly lovely people who I have these shared"},{"startTime":743.062,"endTime":754.1850000000001,"body":"values with and spiritual system with, there was like the depths of me they couldn't see"},{"startTime":754.1850000000001,"endTime":757.2660000000001,"body":"because they had no reference for my Mormonism."},{"startTime":757.2660000000001,"endTime":760.527,"body":"So I felt like I could only go so deep with them."},{"startTime":760.562,"endTime":772.9200000000001,"body":"And it was like, that's when I started to like binge Mormon content online, like just"},{"startTime":760.562,"endTime":772.9200000000001,"body":"taking in all the Mormon stuff that I could."},{"startTime":772.922,"endTime":785.1220000000001,"body":"And then that was sort of like this return to my Mormon roots where it was like, this"},{"startTime":772.922,"endTime":785.1220000000001,"body":"realization that Mormonism is my heritage and my ethnicity in a way."},{"startTime":785.7620000000001,"endTime":795.052,"body":"anyway, so that's kind of has been my journey with leaving Mormonism and starting to like"},{"startTime":785.7620000000001,"endTime":795.052,"body":"find my balance with it."},{"startTime":795.052,"endTime":798.5200000000001,"body":"But Stephanie, I know that you've had a completely different process."},{"startTime":798.5200000000001,"endTime":801.2320000000001,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":801.9530000000001,"endTime":814.072,"body":"Well, one thing I want to say, you know, and just the process of leaving Mormonism, it"},{"startTime":801.9530000000001,"endTime":814.072,"body":"feels to me like a lot of times there is still, once again, ingrained in us, internalized,"},{"startTime":814.072,"endTime":825.88,"body":"not just externally, like Mormons telling us how to be ex-Mormons, but internally, we have"},{"startTime":814.072,"endTime":825.88,"body":"these internalized, be redundant, we have these internalized beliefs about"},{"startTime":826.436,"endTime":828.047,"body":"what it means to be a good ex-Mormon."},{"startTime":828.047,"endTime":841.8380000000001,"body":"And part of that is this idea that things like anger or even like bitterness or resentment"},{"startTime":828.047,"endTime":841.8380000000001,"body":"or grief or all of those things are something that you get stuck in."},{"startTime":841.839,"endTime":846.062,"body":"So it's almost like, I'm in this place that I shouldn't be in."},{"startTime":846.062,"endTime":848.364,"body":"How can I get to a better place?"},{"startTime":848.364,"endTime":856.149,"body":"And that feels just like Mormonism to me where it's like, everything that's in the shadow,"},{"startTime":848.364,"endTime":856.149,"body":"everything that comes from Satan,"},{"startTime":856.354,"endTime":857.5350000000001,"body":"We don't want those things."},{"startTime":857.5350000000001,"endTime":866.029,"body":"We have to move through it and get to the places where we feel good and get to the places"},{"startTime":857.5350000000001,"endTime":866.029,"body":"where we only have loving thoughts and we forgive everyone."},{"startTime":866.029,"endTime":869.671,"body":"And we just feel like we are peacemakers."},{"startTime":869.671,"endTime":870.7810000000001,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":871.0010000000001,"endTime":875.003,"body":"And not that there's, know, ultimately like in reality, sure."},{"startTime":875.003,"endTime":881.0260000000001,"body":"Like that's, you can say maybe that's the ultimate truth that like everything is love and"},{"startTime":875.003,"endTime":881.0260000000001,"body":"whatever, but."},{"startTime":881.0260000000001,"endTime":892.014,"body":"If you only aim for that and you only look at that as some sort of like higher standard"},{"startTime":881.0260000000001,"endTime":892.014,"body":"that you're trying to reach, to me, it completely bypasses everything that it means to be"},{"startTime":892.014,"endTime":899.9390000000001,"body":"human, everything that's beautiful about being angry, everything that's beautiful about"},{"startTime":892.014,"endTime":899.9390000000001,"body":"being like, I'm actually not fucking over this."},{"startTime":899.9390000000001,"endTime":901.946,"body":"And I don't feel like I have to be."},{"startTime":901.946,"endTime":904.052,"body":"I don't feel like it's a hump I'm trying to get over."},{"startTime":904.052,"endTime":906.0840000000001,"body":"It's something that shaped me."},{"startTime":906.0840000000001,"endTime":908.1850000000001,"body":"It's something that's alive in me."},{"startTime":908.1850000000001,"endTime":909.8660000000001,"body":"It feels very..."},{"startTime":909.956,"endTime":925.6740000000001,"body":"honoring and poetic and rich and deep to respect it and to go with the flow of wherever my"},{"startTime":909.956,"endTime":925.6740000000001,"body":"process takes me instead of being like, okay, I'm gonna pathologize my anger because"},{"startTime":925.715,"endTime":928.356,"body":"there's a ton of Mormons that are telling me to stop being angry."},{"startTime":928.356,"endTime":931.148,"body":"And there's a ton of ex-Mormons who say the same thing."},{"startTime":931.148,"endTime":934.86,"body":"They'll be like, yeah, well, it's almost like this hierarchy, right?"},{"startTime":934.86,"endTime":937.351,"body":"Like, yeah, I used to be angry, but I got over it."},{"startTime":937.351,"endTime":938.331,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"startTime":938.331,"endTime":939.428,"body":"They can just like..."},{"startTime":939.428,"endTime":947.13,"body":"you know, wear this badge of honor that they're now in a supposedly better place, if that"},{"startTime":939.428,"endTime":947.13,"body":"makes sense."},{"startTime":948.3430000000001,"endTime":948.6930000000001,"body":"It does."},{"startTime":948.6930000000001,"endTime":953.3470000000001,"body":"And I've had the experience even recently of realizing how, and maybe it was part of being"},{"startTime":948.6930000000001,"endTime":953.3470000000001,"body":"separated."},{"startTime":953.488,"endTime":967.361,"body":"Cause I think there was a, there's been a part of me that's wanted to almost prove that"},{"startTime":953.488,"endTime":967.361,"body":"you can still be happy and ex Mormon, like that, that, you can still be successful and"},{"startTime":967.361,"endTime":969.763,"body":"happy and live a fulfilling life."},{"startTime":969.9440000000001,"endTime":973.335,"body":"And like externally."},{"startTime":973.335,"endTime":981.802,"body":"And so I didn't realize I'd been putting that pressure on myself to kind of almost be like"},{"startTime":973.335,"endTime":981.802,"body":"a model ex Mormon to be like, look, I can leave, but I can still be loving towards my"},{"startTime":981.802,"endTime":984.244,"body":"family members and friends who are still in the church."},{"startTime":984.244,"endTime":987.2170000000001,"body":"I can still, you know, keep my marriage intact."},{"startTime":987.2170000000001,"endTime":989.248,"body":"can still be happy."},{"startTime":989.248,"endTime":997.075,"body":"And, and then I was like, well, what, what bar am I holding myself to and how exhausting"},{"startTime":989.248,"endTime":997.075,"body":"is that?"},{"startTime":997.075,"endTime":1000.138,"body":"And life is life."},{"startTime":1000.138,"endTime":1001.9730000000001,"body":"And, you know,"},{"startTime":1001.9730000000001,"endTime":1008.7280000000001,"body":"staying in the church, leaving the church is no guarantee that your marriage is going to"},{"startTime":1001.9730000000001,"endTime":1008.7280000000001,"body":"fail or even saying the word failed marriage."},{"startTime":1008.7280000000001,"endTime":1010.0690000000001,"body":"I did not have a failed marriage."},{"startTime":1010.0690000000001,"endTime":1015.8130000000001,"body":"had a super loving, successful, happy and rewarding marriage."},{"startTime":1015.8130000000001,"endTime":1018.5550000000001,"body":"And just like anything in life, sometimes things ebb and flow."},{"startTime":1018.5550000000001,"endTime":1022.417,"body":"And sometimes it's, it's time for new experiences and new, new things."},{"startTime":1022.417,"endTime":1030.593,"body":"And so it's still how much of my, and so part of my reason for even just like keep"},{"startTime":1022.417,"endTime":1030.593,"body":"revisiting Mormonism."},{"startTime":1030.593,"endTime":1043.407,"body":"is to understand myself and my own psyche because that perspective, like I'm saying, that"},{"startTime":1030.593,"endTime":1043.407,"body":"perspective that happiness is a gauge of how successfully I'm living my life is a very"},{"startTime":1043.407,"endTime":1048.693,"body":"Mormon paradigm that I'm still unpacking and still realizing how much it impacts me."},{"startTime":1052.047,"endTime":1052.617,"body":"Go ahead, Kelly."},{"startTime":1052.617,"endTime":1053.157,"body":"see what you want to say."},{"startTime":1053.157,"endTime":1053.777,"body":"Just jump in."},{"startTime":1053.777,"endTime":1055.569,"body":"If you want to say something, you jump in."},{"startTime":1055.569,"endTime":1061.44,"body":"you have shared and I feel like there's so much that I wanna keep riffing on from what"},{"startTime":1055.569,"endTime":1061.44,"body":"you've shared."},{"startTime":1061.44,"endTime":1074.438,"body":"But what it's bringing up for me about my own experience is that with my journey of"},{"startTime":1061.44,"endTime":1074.438,"body":"leaving, I was so ready to just kinda let it go and move on."},{"startTime":1074.898,"endTime":1081.386,"body":"this is what I've, Stephanie and I have talked about this a lot where you can..."},{"startTime":1082.806,"endTime":1097.132,"body":"realize that you don't have a literal belief in the truth claims of the church and feel"},{"startTime":1082.806,"endTime":1097.132,"body":"like you've left the church, which is what I did, but I didn't actually deconstruct the"},{"startTime":1097.132,"endTime":1101.7340000000002,"body":"structure of cult-like thinking that had a grip on my mind."},{"startTime":1101.7340000000002,"endTime":1112.598,"body":"And so I replaced my literal beliefs in the church with, I went straight into, because I"},{"startTime":1101.7340000000002,"endTime":1112.598,"body":"was in college and I had all this stuff coming at me, so I went straight into like,"},{"startTime":1112.684,"endTime":1116.357,"body":"environmentalism and liberalism and veganism."},{"startTime":1116.357,"endTime":1124.2340000000002,"body":"And I just immediately replaced all of the other beliefs that I had with new beliefs that"},{"startTime":1116.357,"endTime":1124.2340000000002,"body":"resonate with me more."},{"startTime":1124.2340000000002,"endTime":1129.548,"body":"But I still was holding them in the mental structure that Mormonism gave me."},{"startTime":1129.548,"endTime":1138.7150000000001,"body":"So I just found new ways to be righteous and new ways to keep the commandments and new"},{"startTime":1129.548,"endTime":1138.7150000000001,"body":"ways to signal that I'm good enough."},{"startTime":1138.7150000000001,"endTime":1139.095,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":1139.095,"endTime":1141.247,"body":"Because keeping the commandments means that you're good."},{"startTime":1141.247,"endTime":1142.7640000000001,"body":"You're doing something right."},{"startTime":1142.7640000000001,"endTime":1156.63,"body":"And so both of what you guys are talking about in terms of being good and being a model"},{"startTime":1142.7640000000001,"endTime":1156.63,"body":"ex-Mormon and being happy, they're all still sort of like holding up the bigger structure"},{"startTime":1156.63,"endTime":1159.961,"body":"that Mormonism has over our minds."},{"startTime":1159.961,"endTime":1166.164,"body":"And so it wasn't until I started to learn from like cult experts."},{"startTime":1166.164,"endTime":1172.066,"body":"Well, I think that I can't remember his name, doctor, I can't remember his name, but the"},{"startTime":1166.164,"endTime":1172.066,"body":"cult expert."},{"startTime":1172.066,"endTime":1172.837,"body":"Stephen Hassan?"},{"startTime":1172.837,"endTime":1173.7060000000001,"body":"See you."},{"startTime":1173.7060000000001,"endTime":1174.537,"body":"so."},{"startTime":1174.537,"endTime":1184.8980000000001,"body":"I learned a lot from him with Mormon stories and then Sam and Tanner with Zelf on the"},{"startTime":1174.537,"endTime":1184.8980000000001,"body":"Shelf, like my really good friends have helped me to learn about how cult-like thinking"},{"startTime":1184.8980000000001,"endTime":1190.0520000000001,"body":"can function in our lives beyond just literal Mormon belief."},{"startTime":1190.093,"endTime":1196.7160000000001,"body":"And so much of it has to do with, it comes down to this central worthiness."},{"startTime":1196.7160000000001,"endTime":1197.9260000000002,"body":"Like, am I good?"},{"startTime":1197.9260000000002,"endTime":1202.738,"body":"Can someone affirm for me, some external source affirm for me that I'm a good person?"},{"startTime":1202.93,"endTime":1213.967,"body":"And it's like, for me, was like, if I'm a vegan, and then that means that I'm not doing"},{"startTime":1202.93,"endTime":1213.967,"body":"harm and I'm a good, you know, I was looking for all these ways that I could still not sin"},{"startTime":1213.967,"endTime":1216.458,"body":"and still keep the commandments."},{"startTime":1217.099,"endTime":1223.15,"body":"anyways, so that has been huge for me is like recovering from being a good girl."},{"startTime":1223.15,"endTime":1228.056,"body":"And that's similar to what I'm hearing from Stephanie, like not."},{"startTime":1228.374,"endTime":1237.7630000000001,"body":"not needing to be a good girl and be just polite and never angry and yeah so that's that's"},{"startTime":1228.374,"endTime":1237.7630000000001,"body":"what's coming up for me."},{"startTime":1237.7630000000001,"endTime":1243.125,"body":"And I love that point that like leaving the church is literally just the first step in"},{"startTime":1237.7630000000001,"endTime":1243.125,"body":"deconstructing."},{"startTime":1243.125,"endTime":1251.4270000000001,"body":"And, you know, along with cult-like thinking, there are so many other things that need to"},{"startTime":1243.125,"endTime":1251.4270000000001,"body":"be deconstructed in the Mormon psyche."},{"startTime":1251.4270000000001,"endTime":1260.698,"body":"Like so many ex-Mormons even still have an incredibly Mormon psyche because there's so"},{"startTime":1251.4270000000001,"endTime":1260.698,"body":"much work that needs to be done to deconstruct."},{"startTime":1260.698,"endTime":1265.1200000000001,"body":"those deeply, deeply internalized beliefs."},{"startTime":1266.101,"endTime":1277.025,"body":"And to both of your points, like, you know, what got me questioning all of this was it, I"},{"startTime":1266.101,"endTime":1277.025,"body":"started to really examine like, what is actually helpful?"},{"startTime":1277.166,"endTime":1284.209,"body":"You know, is being a quote unquote, like being good, quote unquote good, is that actually"},{"startTime":1277.166,"endTime":1284.209,"body":"helpful?"},{"startTime":1284.209,"endTime":1287.4660000000001,"body":"Being a nice person, is that actually helpful?"},{"startTime":1287.4660000000001,"endTime":1293.93,"body":"And to what you were saying, Mike, I can leave the church and still have a good"},{"startTime":1287.4660000000001,"endTime":1293.93,"body":"relationship with all these people who are still in the church."},{"startTime":1293.93,"endTime":1297.952,"body":"And look, I'm so, whatever, I'm easygoing and I'm happy and whatever."},{"startTime":1297.952,"endTime":1301.0130000000001,"body":"It's like, is that actually helpful?"},{"startTime":1301.0140000000001,"endTime":1306.316,"body":"And I've been thinking about, you guys know, Chappell Rhone."},{"startTime":1307.297,"endTime":1309.959,"body":"She's going through, yeah, of course, love her."},{"startTime":1309.959,"endTime":1315.862,"body":"She's going through all this stuff right now with fans, where fans are being absolutely"},{"startTime":1309.959,"endTime":1315.862,"body":"batshit crazy."},{"startTime":1315.934,"endTime":1319.195,"body":"and she's putting her foot down and she's like saying no."},{"startTime":1319.296,"endTime":1331.141,"body":"And for some reason I keep thinking about this where I'm like, you know, all of these"},{"startTime":1319.296,"endTime":1331.141,"body":"celebrities have had to sort of play this game of like, well, we gotta be nice to our fans"},{"startTime":1331.141,"endTime":1332.5710000000001,"body":"because they pay our bills."},{"startTime":1332.5710000000001,"endTime":1339.704,"body":"We gotta be nice to our fans even though they're overriding our boundaries, even though"},{"startTime":1332.5710000000001,"endTime":1339.704,"body":"this is abusive, even though this isn't okay, we gotta be nice."},{"startTime":1339.704,"endTime":1342.666,"body":"And I feel like it's very similar for ex-Mormons."},{"startTime":1342.666,"endTime":1344.166,"body":"It's like actually,"},{"startTime":1344.814,"endTime":1346.978,"body":"Maybe it's not helpful to be nice."},{"startTime":1347.02,"endTime":1355.318,"body":"Maybe it's actually not helpful in the long run to do something that appears to be nice"},{"startTime":1347.02,"endTime":1355.318,"body":"that's just going to continue to perpetuate the harm."},{"startTime":1356.813,"endTime":1367.346,"body":"Well, something about because of all the like suppressed emotions or suppressed things, I"},{"startTime":1356.813,"endTime":1367.346,"body":"guess, in Mormonism, you know, sexuality, obviously being high up there."},{"startTime":1367.546,"endTime":1369.377,"body":"Anger is probably even higher."},{"startTime":1369.377,"endTime":1370.957,"body":"mean, angry anger."},{"startTime":1370.957,"endTime":1374.238,"body":"There's like no safe expression for anger."},{"startTime":1374.238,"endTime":1385.601,"body":"You know, even when you get married or it's like, and I've realized lately how good anger"},{"startTime":1374.238,"endTime":1385.601,"body":"feels like it feels so good to just like, and it feels like."},{"startTime":1386.467,"endTime":1390.688,"body":"getting back in touch with a part of me that's like, no, I don't want to do this."},{"startTime":1390.688,"endTime":1400.0510000000002,"body":"And I love that you bring up Chappell Rhone because what she, like when I see some of"},{"startTime":1390.688,"endTime":1400.0510000000002,"body":"those videos that she posts about like, you know, complaining about the fans and like all"},{"startTime":1400.0510000000002,"endTime":1408.5130000000001,"body":"this, cause she went from, I mean, the height at like, no one knew her to like the height"},{"startTime":1400.0510000000002,"endTime":1408.5130000000001,"body":"of fame in like a year."},{"startTime":1409.713,"endTime":1413.054,"body":"And she's saying that, look, I've already given you my gift."},{"startTime":1413.054,"endTime":1414.265,"body":"I've given you my music."},{"startTime":1414.265,"endTime":1416.295,"body":"I don't owe you anything else."},{"startTime":1416.883,"endTime":1420.9660000000001,"body":"And if you want to stop listening to my music because of that, stop listening."},{"startTime":1421.326,"endTime":1428.5810000000001,"body":"And it's like this belief enough in her and her art and her expression that like, people"},{"startTime":1421.326,"endTime":1428.5810000000001,"body":"will listen whether I'm nice or not."},{"startTime":1428.5810000000001,"endTime":1430.5330000000001,"body":"Like, so I'm just going to be me."},{"startTime":1430.5330000000001,"endTime":1436.707,"body":"And so when I think about like, if someone asked me the question, like, are you happier"},{"startTime":1430.5330000000001,"endTime":1436.707,"body":"after leaving?"},{"startTime":1436.707,"endTime":1438.9180000000001,"body":"I've been out of the church 10 years now."},{"startTime":1439.239,"endTime":1441.24,"body":"I would say both."},{"startTime":1441.56,"endTime":1445.4750000000001,"body":"I felt higher highs and lower lows and everything in between."},{"startTime":1445.4750000000001,"endTime":1452.853,"body":"But above all, I feel more authentic in my expression and authentically me than I ever"},{"startTime":1445.4750000000001,"endTime":1452.853,"body":"have before."},{"startTime":1452.853,"endTime":1455.246,"body":"And that's a relief."},{"startTime":1455.246,"endTime":1456.928,"body":"It's just a relief."},{"startTime":1458.931,"endTime":1459.911,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1460.435,"endTime":1462.594,"body":"I don't know if anyone can resonate with that, but."},{"startTime":1462.594,"endTime":1464.294,"body":"I can, I can."},{"startTime":1464.294,"endTime":1465.233,"body":"I Kelly can."},{"startTime":1465.233,"endTime":1466.345,"body":"We both can."},{"startTime":1467.3310000000001,"endTime":1473.365,"body":"Well, I mean, I was going to say when I was hearing Stephanie talking earlier, like, is"},{"startTime":1467.3310000000001,"endTime":1473.365,"body":"this helpful to be nice?"},{"startTime":1473.365,"endTime":1477.3980000000001,"body":"It's like, what actually is helpful is to be honest."},{"startTime":1477.539,"endTime":1492.3310000000001,"body":"And there's, like, I was listening, I heard a clip from Jeremy Rannells, who wrote the CES"},{"startTime":1477.539,"endTime":1492.3310000000001,"body":"letter, his like excommunication hearing."},{"startTime":1492.872,"endTime":1495.906,"body":"And I was listening to a little portion of it."},{"startTime":1495.906,"endTime":1501.409,"body":"And like what was resonating with me was him pointing out like, this is not honest."},{"startTime":1501.409,"endTime":1504.5710000000001,"body":"The way the church is presenting information is not honest."},{"startTime":1504.611,"endTime":1507.7530000000002,"body":"And it was like, it shook me of growing up."},{"startTime":1507.7530000000002,"endTime":1524.442,"body":"It was a mind fuck because I knew that I was being asked to be puritanically honest, but I"},{"startTime":1507.7530000000002,"endTime":1524.442,"body":"could sense like that actual honesty in practice wasn't truly valued in Mormonism."},{"startTime":1524.8700000000001,"endTime":1540.8990000000001,"body":"And so now we get to have this opportunity to practice that, to be honest and authentic,"},{"startTime":1524.8700000000001,"endTime":1540.8990000000001,"body":"including honoring and owning the parts of ourselves that are fucking pissed and that are"},{"startTime":1540.8990000000001,"endTime":1545.622,"body":"saying no, even if it ruffles feathers."},{"startTime":1545.838,"endTime":1547.599,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":1547.82,"endTime":1556.266,"body":"And like as we originally started talking about this, like before we started recording"},{"startTime":1547.82,"endTime":1556.266,"body":"this podcast, we wanted to, we were having a discussion or wanted to have a discussion"},{"startTime":1556.266,"endTime":1568.0140000000001,"body":"about spiritually bypassing, which is so prevalent in Mormonism because it's essentially"},{"startTime":1556.266,"endTime":1568.0140000000001,"body":"the idea that like the good emotions are the only thing that you focus on."},{"startTime":1568.435,"endTime":1572.4840000000002,"body":"And if you have enough of the good emotions, then the bad ones,"},{"startTime":1572.4840000000002,"endTime":1574.255,"body":"don't like you can just ignore them."},{"startTime":1574.255,"endTime":1580.297,"body":"You can push them under the rug or you can somehow magically heal them with just the good"},{"startTime":1574.255,"endTime":1580.297,"body":"emotions."},{"startTime":1581.118,"endTime":1585.3590000000002,"body":"And, you know, to speak to what you were saying, Kelly, about being honest."},{"startTime":1586.22,"endTime":1596.0040000000001,"body":"What I have found is that like you can't like number one, spiritually bypassing leads to"},{"startTime":1586.22,"endTime":1596.0040000000001,"body":"incredible amounts of like."},{"startTime":1596.7640000000001,"endTime":1601.266,"body":"Dishonesty within yourself about, you know."},{"startTime":1601.306,"endTime":1615.529,"body":"what you're actually feeling and what actually feels good to you, know, in like speaking"},{"startTime":1601.306,"endTime":1615.529,"body":"to, you know, like we just learn, we learn to be nice to everyone around us, but to not"},{"startTime":1615.529,"endTime":1616.8700000000001,"body":"include ourselves in that."},{"startTime":1616.8700000000001,"endTime":1624.006,"body":"And when you really, when you really start to get honest with how you're feeling, what I"},{"startTime":1616.8700000000001,"endTime":1624.006,"body":"have found is that,"},{"startTime":1626.05,"endTime":1639.6580000000001,"body":"It's way, way, way, way more fulfilling and better than whatever the church was saying"},{"startTime":1626.05,"endTime":1639.6580000000001,"body":"about like, only these good, we only want these good emotions because they feel good."},{"startTime":1639.6580000000001,"endTime":1646.281,"body":"It's like, I feel a different sort of better now than I did before."},{"startTime":1646.281,"endTime":1647.602,"body":"Does that make sense?"},{"startTime":1648.175,"endTime":1654.655,"body":"Totally, and I think a lot of when you talk about spiritual bypassing, it's almost an"},{"startTime":1648.175,"endTime":1654.655,"body":"avoidance of grief."},{"startTime":1654.675,"endTime":1659.795,"body":"And I would love to get Kelly's perspective on this too, because I know Kelly, you've done"},{"startTime":1654.675,"endTime":1659.795,"body":"a lot of grief work."},{"startTime":1659.795,"endTime":1665.895,"body":"But I feel like, for example, I lost someone really close to me about a year and a half"},{"startTime":1659.795,"endTime":1665.895,"body":"ago, really close to me."},{"startTime":1665.895,"endTime":1675.835,"body":"And I feel like grieving my loss of the church helped me grieve this loss, which has also"},{"startTime":1665.895,"endTime":1675.835,"body":"helped me now grieve the loss of my marriage."},{"startTime":1676.255,"endTime":1677.391,"body":"Because what it..."},{"startTime":1677.391,"endTime":1685.2250000000001,"body":"taught me is that all emotions are valid and sometimes they don't seem rational."},{"startTime":1685.2250000000001,"endTime":1690.037,"body":"You might be feeling an emotion like, don't know why I'm feeling this and you might never"},{"startTime":1685.2250000000001,"endTime":1690.037,"body":"know why."},{"startTime":1690.037,"endTime":1694.6090000000002,"body":"You might not, but the fact that you're feeling it, it's okay and it's valid."},{"startTime":1694.6090000000002,"endTime":1703.607,"body":"And when you go through the grieving process, you might feel a mixture of intense anger,"},{"startTime":1694.6090000000002,"endTime":1703.607,"body":"intense guilt, and then that cycles to sadness."},{"startTime":1703.607,"endTime":1708.612,"body":"And then it cycles to a joy because you have some happy memory about the person."},{"startTime":1708.612,"endTime":1715.357,"body":"And then it turns into almost a relief and you're like, now I feel guilty for feeling"},{"startTime":1708.612,"endTime":1715.357,"body":"relief even."},{"startTime":1716.059,"endTime":1722.454,"body":"grief is such a tricky, like, sorry, someone just walked in, so I had to close the door."},{"startTime":1722.454,"endTime":1729.8300000000002,"body":"But it's such a tricky ball of like a knot and you just like pulling the strings and"},{"startTime":1722.454,"endTime":1729.8300000000002,"body":"unravel and process it."},{"startTime":1730.817,"endTime":1736.976,"body":"And it's okay to fill all of it and have spaces where it's okay to fill all of it."},{"startTime":1737.057,"endTime":1741.303,"body":"And I know you've been in those spaces before, Kelly, so I'd love to get your thoughts on."},{"startTime":1745.259,"endTime":1747.391,"body":"I mean, I can just affirm what you're saying."},{"startTime":1747.391,"endTime":1752.826,"body":"It's sort of like the antidote of spiritual bypassing is tending our grief."},{"startTime":1752.826,"endTime":1768.3990000000001,"body":"And there's the impulse to, as we see a lot of times people leave Mormonism and then go"},{"startTime":1752.826,"endTime":1768.3990000000001,"body":"into new age spirituality, which can be all about love and light and transcending the"},{"startTime":1768.3990000000001,"endTime":1771.3410000000001,"body":"human experience and,"},{"startTime":1774.2740000000001,"endTime":1780.68,"body":"To me, the ultimate expression of love is honoring our grief."},{"startTime":1783.583,"endTime":1791.871,"body":"One of my grief teachers, Francis Weller, one of the first lessons he teaches is that"},{"startTime":1783.583,"endTime":1791.871,"body":"everything we love, we will lose."},{"startTime":1793.2930000000001,"endTime":1797.276,"body":"Which Stephanie, I know you love that, I say sarcastically."},{"startTime":1798.637,"endTime":1800.505,"body":"I love that that's a fact of life."},{"startTime":1801.433,"endTime":1809.827,"body":"Well, and just real quick, contrast that with what we learned in Mormonism of like, no,"},{"startTime":1801.433,"endTime":1809.827,"body":"this is going to be forever and this family, this unit, or, know, families can be together"},{"startTime":1809.827,"endTime":1810.327,"body":"forever."},{"startTime":1810.327,"endTime":1814.769,"body":"And, and things, this happiness will last, it's eternal happiness after this."},{"startTime":1814.769,"endTime":1819.27,"body":"And so you have this mindset that like, if it's good, it will last forever."},{"startTime":1819.651,"endTime":1821.012,"body":"It's the opposite."},{"startTime":1821.012,"endTime":1829.515,"body":"And it, almost, it blocks that grieving process and, and allowing us to let go of those"},{"startTime":1821.012,"endTime":1829.515,"body":"things, even if we love them intensely."},{"startTime":1830.1680000000001,"endTime":1843.276,"body":"Yeah, I feel like my ultimate, ultimate transition that I went through with leaving"},{"startTime":1830.1680000000001,"endTime":1843.276,"body":"Mormonism was going from the I know that you have that you're indoctrinated to claim I"},{"startTime":1843.276,"endTime":1844.332,"body":"know the church is true."},{"startTime":1844.332,"endTime":1848.169,"body":"I know, I know, I know to like, I don't know."},{"startTime":1849.01,"endTime":1855.776,"body":"And just really like the free fall into the not knowing and finding that"},{"startTime":1855.776,"endTime":1863.209,"body":"actually opening myself to the great mystery is where my most profound spiritual"},{"startTime":1855.776,"endTime":1863.209,"body":"connection lies."},{"startTime":1863.53,"endTime":1877.075,"body":"And in that, I found a lot of benefit from the teachings from Buddhism and Hinduism about"},{"startTime":1863.53,"endTime":1877.075,"body":"impermanence, that there's really no solid structures."},{"startTime":1877.776,"endTime":1882.678,"body":"We take ourselves to be solid, we take this life to be solid, but everything is just."},{"startTime":1882.778,"endTime":1896.278,"body":"we're living beings that are in process and there's not really anything to hold onto other"},{"startTime":1882.778,"endTime":1896.278,"body":"than just continually refreshing our willingness to receive the mystery of the unknown,"},{"startTime":1896.278,"endTime":1898.838,"body":"the groundlessness of existence."},{"startTime":1898.838,"endTime":1904.8780000000002,"body":"It's continually dissolving and re-emerging at all times."},{"startTime":1905.278,"endTime":1910.872,"body":"so, yeah, it's like..."},{"startTime":1910.872,"endTime":1929.512,"body":"we have to, we have to, in order to keep our hearts open, continually be tending our grief"},{"startTime":1910.872,"endTime":1929.512,"body":"and letting ourselves love as everything is continually dissolving and changing."},{"startTime":1929.7530000000002,"endTime":1939.118,"body":"so it's such a fundamental shift from the pretending that I know in Mormonism to"},{"startTime":1929.7530000000002,"endTime":1939.118,"body":"mysteriously"},{"startTime":1940.3020000000001,"endTime":1952.685,"body":"feeling this strange sense of comfort and peace in the release and the freefall and just"},{"startTime":1940.3020000000001,"endTime":1952.685,"body":"opening into the unknown and the continual changing."},{"startTime":1953.4660000000001,"endTime":1967.19,"body":"That's, you know, that's the only place where I have found peace is in learning to"},{"startTime":1953.4660000000001,"endTime":1967.19,"body":"continually open again and again to the always changing, always dissolving nature of"},{"startTime":1967.19,"endTime":1968.25,"body":"reality."},{"startTime":1969.0620000000001,"endTime":1970.91,"body":"and how different."},{"startTime":1970.91,"endTime":1972.586,"body":"Did I?"},{"startTime":1972.6970000000001,"endTime":1973.9080000000001,"body":"So good, yeah."},{"startTime":1973.9080000000001,"endTime":1974.3590000000002,"body":"beautiful."},{"startTime":1974.3590000000002,"endTime":1975.16,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1975.16,"endTime":1979.713,"body":"And, and just a second, what Mike said, like how different that is than what we were"},{"startTime":1975.16,"endTime":1979.713,"body":"taught in Mormonism."},{"startTime":1979.713,"endTime":1990.473,"body":"And it's so ironic that the very thing that Mormonism tells you to avoid and tells you to,"},{"startTime":1979.713,"endTime":1990.473,"body":"it's scary and dangerous and whatever is the very thing that opens your heart to the"},{"startTime":1990.473,"endTime":1992.2540000000001,"body":"deepest kind of love."},{"startTime":1993.636,"endTime":2001.016,"body":"and, like, you know, talking about tending to your grief, I don't feel like in Mormonism"},{"startTime":1993.636,"endTime":2001.016,"body":"you can access"},{"startTime":2001.016,"endTime":2014.027,"body":"you can't really access your grief because you're not there's that like spiritual"},{"startTime":2001.016,"endTime":2014.027,"body":"bypassing is literally built into the doctrine, the doctrine, you and, so that's what's"},{"startTime":2014.027,"endTime":2022.644,"body":"been surprised, like the most surprising thing to me when I've been tending to my grief,"},{"startTime":2014.027,"endTime":2022.644,"body":"that to me, that's the same as tending to my anger."},{"startTime":2022.644,"endTime":2026.147,"body":"It's like they're, they manifest in the same way."},{"startTime":2026.147,"endTime":2030.27,"body":"It's like, it's, it's grieving all of the times that my"},{"startTime":2030.296,"endTime":2035.54,"body":"autonomy was taken from me, that my boundaries were crossed."},{"startTime":2035.54,"endTime":2049.672,"body":"It's grieving like injustices, you know, and just like the more that I have stopped"},{"startTime":2035.54,"endTime":2049.672,"body":"pathologizing my anger and my grief or any of my emotions that supposedly came from Satan,"},{"startTime":2049.672,"endTime":2055.1059999999998,"body":"not that grief came from Satan, but basically all the everything that leads up to your"},{"startTime":2049.672,"endTime":2055.1059999999998,"body":"grief does."},{"startTime":2055.687,"endTime":2059.8199999999997,"body":"Once I stopped like pathologizing that, that's like"},{"startTime":2060.3959999999997,"endTime":2067.002,"body":"where the richest openness and love to life that you can possibly feel starts to come in."},{"startTime":2067.002,"endTime":2071.076,"body":"And then you have all these Mormons on the internet that are like, you need to get over"},{"startTime":2067.002,"endTime":2071.076,"body":"it."},{"startTime":2071.076,"endTime":2075.66,"body":"And I'm like, I would never in a million years do that to myself."},{"startTime":2075.66,"endTime":2083.186,"body":"What a disservice to myself to just bypass the deepest, richest aspects of being a human"},{"startTime":2075.66,"endTime":2083.186,"body":"being."},{"startTime":2084.834,"endTime":2085.4629999999997,"body":"It's..."},{"startTime":2085.4629999999997,"endTime":2086.826,"body":"that's so beautifully said."},{"startTime":2086.826,"endTime":2088.377,"body":"I love that Stephanie."},{"startTime":2088.377,"endTime":2089.627,"body":"So beautiful."},{"startTime":2090.609,"endTime":2096.072,"body":"it reminds me of, so I've been rereading, you guys familiar with The Soul's Code by James"},{"startTime":2090.609,"endTime":2096.072,"body":"Hillman?"},{"startTime":2098.734,"endTime":2103.158,"body":"James Hillman, he's the founder of, right there, there it is."},{"startTime":2103.158,"endTime":2104.418,"body":"That's the book."},{"startTime":2104.459,"endTime":2105.959,"body":"Such a good book."},{"startTime":2106.66,"endTime":2108.1209999999996,"body":"Highly recommend it."},{"startTime":2108.562,"endTime":2116.4689999999996,"body":"in that book, he, so, you know, there's that quote, like, are divine beings having a human"},{"startTime":2108.562,"endTime":2116.4689999999996,"body":"experience."},{"startTime":2116.4689999999996,"endTime":2120.5829999999996,"body":"And whether that's literally true, it's definitely metaphorically true."},{"startTime":2120.5829999999996,"endTime":2129.4519999999998,"body":"There's a part of us that craves transcendence and then we also have these animal bodies."},{"startTime":2129.4519999999998,"endTime":2136.029,"body":"And so we're always in this tension between our animalistic instincts and living in"},{"startTime":2129.4519999999998,"endTime":2136.029,"body":"civilized society."},{"startTime":2136.029,"endTime":2140.609,"body":"And he has this chapter on what he calls growing down."},{"startTime":2140.609,"endTime":2141.3289999999997,"body":"And I love that."},{"startTime":2141.3289999999997,"endTime":2147.622,"body":"And he talks about the Kabbalah and the tree of life where the roots are actually in"},{"startTime":2141.3289999999997,"endTime":2147.622,"body":"heaven and the tree grows down."},{"startTime":2148.042,"endTime":2150.643,"body":"And so I just love that symbolism that like, okay."},{"startTime":2150.643,"endTime":2151.874,"body":"And you think of it in Mormonism."},{"startTime":2151.874,"endTime":2160.4669999999996,"body":"It rings like similar to what Mormons believe that we know we were spiritual beings and"},{"startTime":2151.874,"endTime":2160.4669999999996,"body":"came down here to have an embodied existence and gain a body."},{"startTime":2160.4669999999996,"endTime":2169.7189999999996,"body":"But it's almost like in Mormonism, we believe that we were just supposed to like dip our"},{"startTime":2160.4669999999996,"endTime":2169.7189999999996,"body":"toe in the water, like come down, get a body, but then keep it pure, keep it clean."},{"startTime":2169.7189999999996,"endTime":2179.654,"body":"get married in the temple, lock ourselves up in that way, and then just hold on and grip"},{"startTime":2169.7189999999996,"endTime":2179.654,"body":"and then die, and then we go back to transcendence and not really live an embodied"},{"startTime":2179.654,"endTime":2191.609,"body":"existence with the pains and sorrows and pleasure and ecstasy and everything this"},{"startTime":2179.654,"endTime":2191.609,"body":"existence and this, yeah, has to offer."},{"startTime":2191.8889999999997,"endTime":2193.6,"body":"And I just, I've been rereading that chapter."},{"startTime":2193.6,"endTime":2195.721,"body":"I love it, because yeah, go ahead, Kelly."},{"startTime":2196.2259999999997,"endTime":2199.038,"body":"No, I'm like cheering with what you're saying."},{"startTime":2199.7639999999997,"endTime":2201.9939999999997,"body":"But I mean, I recommend people get that book."},{"startTime":2201.9939999999997,"endTime":2206.365,"body":"And if anything, just read that chapter of all the whole books here, you should read the"},{"startTime":2201.9939999999997,"endTime":2206.365,"body":"whole book."},{"startTime":2206.365,"endTime":2219.709,"body":"like, because for me, it's like, you know, I think James Campbell had the quote that like,"},{"startTime":2206.365,"endTime":2219.709,"body":"joyfully engage in the sorrows of life, like, you know, like, there's something to that"},{"startTime":2219.709,"endTime":2220.821,"body":"being here."},{"startTime":2220.821,"endTime":2221.66,"body":"I mean, we're here."},{"startTime":2221.66,"endTime":2227.3089999999997,"body":"So and kind of this embracing of all that is instead of"},{"startTime":2227.3089999999997,"endTime":2229.633,"body":"Wait, we're only going for the good parts."},{"startTime":2230.902,"endTime":2233.2419999999997,"body":"Yeah, 100%."},{"startTime":2233.3039999999996,"endTime":2243.029,"body":"I just mentioned Francis Weller earlier and something that he says a lot of times is your"},{"startTime":2233.3039999999996,"endTime":2243.029,"body":"soul came here for full participation."},{"startTime":2244.79,"endTime":2248.723,"body":"our souls don't discriminate between pleasure and pain."},{"startTime":2248.723,"endTime":2256.837,"body":"Our soul, like the higher, larger self, the bigger self that we are, I really feel"},{"startTime":2257.7219999999998,"endTime":2274.122,"body":"wants to experience what it is to be a human being and like wants to receive life as it's"},{"startTime":2257.7219999999998,"endTime":2274.122,"body":"presenting itself to us and it it's like ooh sensation you know like the whole entire all"},{"startTime":2274.122,"endTime":2285.1859999999997,"body":"of what it means to be human and that's why i always make the distinction like in buddhist"},{"startTime":2274.122,"endTime":2285.1859999999997,"body":"teachings the first noble truth"},{"startTime":2285.1859999999997,"endTime":2289.1079999999997,"body":"was that life has suffering, not that life is suffering."},{"startTime":2289.5879999999997,"endTime":2291.307,"body":"But that's just step one."},{"startTime":2291.307,"endTime":2292.66,"body":"That's not the end of the story."},{"startTime":2292.66,"endTime":2299.9739999999997,"body":"It's like the way out of it is really by embracing it."},{"startTime":2300.835,"endTime":2311.821,"body":"Like there's another quote from Ajin Shah, which I know this because I've listened to so"},{"startTime":2300.835,"endTime":2311.821,"body":"many hundreds of hours of Jack Kornfield talks, who's a Buddhist teacher and Jack"},{"startTime":2311.821,"endTime":2314.5319999999997,"body":"Kornfield's, his,"},{"startTime":2314.5319999999997,"endTime":2318.384,"body":"Buddhist teachers named Ajahn Chah, and there's a quote from him."},{"startTime":2318.5649999999996,"endTime":2329.9919999999997,"body":"There's two kinds of suffering, the kind that you run away from, which follows you"},{"startTime":2318.5649999999996,"endTime":2329.9919999999997,"body":"everywhere, and the kind that you turn towards, and the kind that you turn towards is,"},{"startTime":2330.953,"endTime":2334.055,"body":"that is your liberation, that is your opening."},{"startTime":2335.3559999999998,"endTime":2344.3419999999996,"body":"And so it's like in the process of just turning towards what our lives are, what's"},{"startTime":2344.3419999999996,"endTime":2357.571,"body":"all of that's arising as what it means to be human, including grief and anger and whatever"},{"startTime":2344.3419999999996,"endTime":2357.571,"body":"other aspects of the human experience as Mormons, we were taught to believe was coming"},{"startTime":2357.571,"endTime":2361.6949999999997,"body":"from Satan or taught to transcend or bypass."},{"startTime":2361.6949999999997,"endTime":2370.801,"body":"It's like actually liberation is found in embracing it and acknowledging this is part of"},{"startTime":2361.6949999999997,"endTime":2370.801,"body":"the gift of life too."},{"startTime":2370.801,"endTime":2372.562,"body":"All of this is part of"},{"startTime":2373.73,"endTime":2375.861,"body":"what it means to be a human being."},{"startTime":2378.768,"endTime":2379.745,"body":"Beautiful."},{"startTime":2380.875,"endTime":2384.187,"body":"And I just, it brings it's cause there's a similar quote."},{"startTime":2384.187,"endTime":2386.778,"body":"we're doing a lot of quotes, but like, there's so good."},{"startTime":2386.778,"endTime":2389.7799999999997,"body":"Carl Jung has this quote, like what you resist persists."},{"startTime":2389.7799999999997,"endTime":2400.506,"body":"so that ties into that and, you know, tightening into like anger, you're talking about"},{"startTime":2389.7799999999997,"endTime":2400.506,"body":"Stephanie, like if, unless you're, you feel it, it's just going to be there."},{"startTime":2400.506,"endTime":2401.946,"body":"it's going to be there under the surface."},{"startTime":2401.946,"endTime":2410.415,"body":"And so if you're in that experience of anger, being that experience and, know, and I mean,"},{"startTime":2401.946,"endTime":2410.415,"body":"I guess that's the thing about."},{"startTime":2410.415,"endTime":2411.9159999999997,"body":"bypassing, don't bypass it."},{"startTime":2411.9159999999997,"endTime":2413.877,"body":"Don't, and don't already jump to the next step."},{"startTime":2413.877,"endTime":2420.122,"body":"There's something about, you know, as we learn from nature, there's the cycles of death"},{"startTime":2413.877,"endTime":2420.122,"body":"and rebirth and we see it everywhere."},{"startTime":2420.122,"endTime":2430.4089999999997,"body":"know, there's, with death, there's always rebirth, but if we're jumping to the rebirth and"},{"startTime":2420.122,"endTime":2430.4089999999997,"body":"you know, it's like, we have to be in that sometimes we have to be in that gestation"},{"startTime":2430.4089999999997,"endTime":2430.747,"body":"period."},{"startTime":2430.747,"endTime":2431.892,"body":"have to be in the cocoon."},{"startTime":2431.892,"endTime":2437.794,"body":"have to be in the womb for however long that takes before we get birthed out to the other"},{"startTime":2431.892,"endTime":2437.794,"body":"side."},{"startTime":2437.794,"endTime":2438.674,"body":"And,"},{"startTime":2440.5229999999997,"endTime":2447.191,"body":"And trusting that process, but also not trying to jump in or bypass that process."},{"startTime":2447.631,"endTime":2447.95,"body":"I know."},{"startTime":2447.95,"endTime":2457.316,"body":"And I really feel too that these aspects of us don't really, they don't really obey the"},{"startTime":2447.95,"endTime":2457.316,"body":"rules of time and space."},{"startTime":2457.316,"endTime":2459.643,"body":"Like it doesn't feel like a phase to me."},{"startTime":2459.643,"endTime":2465.8199999999997,"body":"It feels more like a living thing that's inside of you that exists there."},{"startTime":2465.8199999999997,"endTime":2470.7329999999997,"body":"And sometimes you're in relationship with, you know, your anger and your grief."},{"startTime":2470.7329999999997,"endTime":2474.345,"body":"Sometimes you're in relationship with your joy and your pleasure."},{"startTime":2474.665,"endTime":2476.6319999999996,"body":"It doesn't feel like a"},{"startTime":2476.6319999999996,"endTime":2477.3819999999996,"body":"a phase."},{"startTime":2477.3819999999996,"endTime":2490.6479999999997,"body":"feels like, this is an aspect of a living thing inside of me, which is why I, the whole"},{"startTime":2477.3819999999996,"endTime":2490.6479999999997,"body":"concept of spiritual bypassing is so, it makes no sense."},{"startTime":2490.6479999999997,"endTime":2499.241,"body":"It's like you guys are, you're missing out when you, when you just like pathologize or try"},{"startTime":2490.6479999999997,"endTime":2499.241,"body":"to get over something."},{"startTime":2499.241,"endTime":2506.734,"body":"You're literally, I feel like we only bypass what we are afraid of."},{"startTime":2507.064,"endTime":2508.7749999999996,"body":"or what we're ashamed of."},{"startTime":2508.895,"endTime":2516.3599999999997,"body":"And when you take out the fear and the shame, it's like everything that exists inside of"},{"startTime":2508.895,"endTime":2516.3599999999997,"body":"you becomes this like, you just like fall in love with yourself."},{"startTime":2516.3599999999997,"endTime":2525.7859999999996,"body":"You fall in love with yourself in a way that you never could inside of Mormonism because"},{"startTime":2516.3599999999997,"endTime":2525.7859999999996,"body":"you believe that half of you is being just, you know, coming from Satan essentially."},{"startTime":2527.172,"endTime":2531.71,"body":"Do you, feel like Steph, is that sort of, I know you had kind of like a breakthrough"},{"startTime":2527.172,"endTime":2531.71,"body":"yesterday."},{"startTime":2531.71,"endTime":2536.278,"body":"I don't know if you want to share anything about it, but is that kind of happening for"},{"startTime":2531.71,"endTime":2536.278,"body":"you?"},{"startTime":2536.278,"endTime":2539.8489999999997,"body":"Is there anything more that you would want to share about your own experience?"},{"startTime":2539.8489999999997,"endTime":2540.479,"body":"I'm Mike."},{"startTime":2540.479,"endTime":2542.6,"body":"had a breakthrough yesterday in therapy."},{"startTime":2544.201,"endTime":2547.5229999999997,"body":"And this, was doing this."},{"startTime":2547.5229999999997,"endTime":2547.8529999999996,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2547.8529999999996,"endTime":2555.828,"body":"Basically I, I realized through doing a coaching session with an IFS coach that like I am"},{"startTime":2547.8529999999996,"endTime":2555.828,"body":"Mormon God."},{"startTime":2556.3579999999997,"endTime":2563.7619999999997,"body":"And that like I had like, everybody has such a different relationship with Mormon God with"},{"startTime":2556.3579999999997,"endTime":2563.7619999999997,"body":"what they perceive Mormon God is."},{"startTime":2563.7619999999997,"endTime":2566.682,"body":"Some people think Mormon God is like this asshole."},{"startTime":2566.682,"endTime":2567.712,"body":"who's like gonna judge you."},{"startTime":2567.712,"endTime":2569.903,"body":"Other people feel like Mormon God is like this loving witness."},{"startTime":2569.903,"endTime":2573.4249999999997,"body":"And mine was more of like a loving witness, which we've talked about on the podcast"},{"startTime":2569.903,"endTime":2573.4249999999997,"body":"before."},{"startTime":2573.9849999999997,"endTime":2582.169,"body":"But I like made this connection that that loving part of me that I thought was Mormon God"},{"startTime":2573.9849999999997,"endTime":2582.169,"body":"was actually just me."},{"startTime":2582.169,"endTime":2586.7709999999997,"body":"Like, you know when you do parts work and you're like, here's a part that's holding this"},{"startTime":2582.169,"endTime":2586.7709999999997,"body":"belief."},{"startTime":2586.7709999999997,"endTime":2588.2509999999997,"body":"Here's a part that's holding this belief."},{"startTime":2588.2509999999997,"endTime":2591.732,"body":"Like I literally had a part that was like, I am Mormon God."},{"startTime":2592.2529999999997,"endTime":2595.394,"body":"And so all of those years of feeling like,"},{"startTime":2596.4399999999996,"endTime":2602.982,"body":"I was getting something from an external being, like the goodness was coming from this"},{"startTime":2596.4399999999996,"endTime":2602.982,"body":"external being."},{"startTime":2602.982,"endTime":2607.173,"body":"It was actually just me giving it to myself, you know?"},{"startTime":2607.2729999999997,"endTime":2622.138,"body":"And I feel like doing a lot of work around unshaming all aspects of me is what has allowed"},{"startTime":2607.2729999999997,"endTime":2622.138,"body":"me to get to this point where I can recognize, actually I've been giving myself love this"},{"startTime":2622.138,"endTime":2623.31,"body":"whole time."},{"startTime":2623.31,"endTime":2626.712,"body":"I just thought it was a Mormon God that was giving it to me before."},{"startTime":2626.99,"endTime":2628.2019999999998,"body":"It was crazy."},{"startTime":2628.2019999999998,"endTime":2633.477,"body":"It was like one sentence that this therapist said and I was like, shit, I am Mormon God."},{"startTime":2634.029,"endTime":2634.74,"body":"Ha ha ha."},{"startTime":2634.74,"endTime":2635.6009999999997,"body":"can I say more?"},{"startTime":2635.6009999999997,"endTime":2645.095,"body":"feel like I don't want to tell your story for you, but I feel like you've had like, IFS"},{"startTime":2635.6009999999997,"endTime":2645.095,"body":"you referenced in it for people who don't know it stands for internal family systems."},{"startTime":2645.095,"endTime":2657.8909999999996,"body":"It's like being with different parts of yourself with this intention of cultivating like a"},{"startTime":2645.095,"endTime":2657.8909999999996,"body":"strong sense of self and a self that can be present with all of the different parts of you"},{"startTime":2657.8909999999996,"endTime":2658.631,"body":"that might arise."},{"startTime":2658.631,"endTime":2659.9919999999997,"body":"So everything is welcome here."},{"startTime":2659.9919999999997,"endTime":2661.3219999999997,"body":"It's very like."},{"startTime":2661.558,"endTime":2664.7599999999998,"body":"a method that's very in tune with the conversation that we're having."},{"startTime":2664.7599999999998,"endTime":2668.1209999999996,"body":"It's like all about radically welcoming everything that comes."},{"startTime":2668.502,"endTime":2675.7059999999997,"body":"And you, it's like you've, you've, you've liked the parts work, but you've kind of like"},{"startTime":2668.502,"endTime":2675.7059999999997,"body":"always hit this block."},{"startTime":2675.7059999999997,"endTime":2679.778,"body":"You've always were like, I don't have, we, think we talked about it in the last"},{"startTime":2675.7059999999997,"endTime":2679.778,"body":"conversation."},{"startTime":2679.778,"endTime":2685.2309999999998,"body":"You were like, my like loving witness was, was heavenly father God."},{"startTime":2685.3309999999997,"endTime":2689.2129999999997,"body":"And then, so she said, cause she, what did she say?"},{"startTime":2689.2129999999997,"endTime":2690.9939999999997,"body":"She was like, you,"},{"startTime":2693.033,"endTime":2695.256,"body":"making a new embodied."},{"startTime":2696.018,"endTime":2698.018,"body":"yeah, yeah, yeah."},{"startTime":2698.178,"endTime":2703.7479999999996,"body":"you know, have you ever had a therapist, Mike, that will like have you embody the thing"},{"startTime":2698.178,"endTime":2703.7479999999996,"body":"that feels foreign in you?"},{"startTime":2703.7479999999996,"endTime":2707.46,"body":"Similar to how you do dream work, where you try to embody, yeah."},{"startTime":2707.46,"endTime":2716.1349999999998,"body":"I've had that in dreams a lot where they'll invite me to kind of go back into a different,"},{"startTime":2707.46,"endTime":2716.1349999999998,"body":"like the, the person who wasn't the me in the dream, the I in the, yeah."},{"startTime":2716.1349999999998,"endTime":2717.346,"body":"That's exactly what it was."},{"startTime":2717.346,"endTime":2720.859,"body":"And then as soon she did that, I was like, I'm Mormon God."},{"startTime":2720.859,"endTime":2724.942,"body":"I've just been pretending to be Mormon God this whole time, but it's really just me."},{"startTime":2726.0609999999997,"endTime":2726.471,"body":"my gosh."},{"startTime":2726.471,"endTime":2727.152,"body":"I love that stuff."},{"startTime":2727.152,"endTime":2734.3239999999996,"body":"Cause we started, you know, the conversation, I Kelly, you had mentioned about like always"},{"startTime":2727.152,"endTime":2734.3239999999996,"body":"seeking for something outside of you, you know, and external validation."},{"startTime":2734.3239999999996,"endTime":2739.817,"body":"mean, I used to have this when I was Mormon had this, even after Mormon, I mean, it still"},{"startTime":2734.3239999999996,"endTime":2739.817,"body":"continues to this day, actually."},{"startTime":2739.817,"endTime":2750.051,"body":"Maybe that's part of the podcast is like this compulsive need to confess because when I"},{"startTime":2739.817,"endTime":2750.051,"body":"confess, I get, I usually get an external validation from someone being like, you're okay,"},{"startTime":2750.051,"endTime":2750.841,"body":"Mike, you're okay."},{"startTime":2750.841,"endTime":2752.8019999999997,"body":"And like, okay, I'm okay."},{"startTime":2753.2819999999997,"endTime":2755.243,"body":"But to find that within you."},{"startTime":2755.6369999999997,"endTime":2758.365,"body":"is that's a huge breakthrough."},{"startTime":2759.194,"endTime":2759.9199999999996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2759.9199999999996,"endTime":2760.651,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":2760.651,"endTime":2764.0049999999997,"body":"If you guys have questions, come to me, because I am Mormon God."},{"startTime":2764.0049999999997,"endTime":2766.8779999999997,"body":"I'm going to start my own religion."},{"startTime":2767.374,"endTime":2769.296,"body":"We've been looking for you the whole time."},{"startTime":2770.3109999999997,"endTime":2771.399,"body":"I have to stop."},{"startTime":2771.399,"endTime":2774.482,"body":"So I thought I had 20 more minutes, but I have to go."},{"startTime":2774.502,"endTime":2777.866,"body":"can you guys continue the conversation and wrap it up?"},{"startTime":2777.866,"endTime":2781.229,"body":"I'm sorry to leave you, but I want to keep going."},{"startTime":2781.326,"endTime":2783.54,"body":"I don't know that I have tons more burning."},{"startTime":2783.54,"endTime":2787.917,"body":"mean, this is just such a beautiful topic that I'm sure we could keep going on."},{"startTime":2787.917,"endTime":2791.102,"body":"I had one thing that I wanted to say, but I don't know about you, Stephanie."},{"startTime":2791.102,"endTime":2793.836,"body":"Did you have more that you wanted to make sure we covered?"},{"startTime":2793.9939999999997,"endTime":2797.292,"body":"I felt like we pretty much covered what we were going to talk about."},{"startTime":2797.2949999999996,"endTime":2797.7149999999997,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2797.7149999999997,"endTime":2798.6949999999997,"body":"Cause I didn't want to wrap it up here."},{"startTime":2798.6949999999997,"endTime":2803.7549999999997,"body":"Cause I feel like we were so in, I just like there a couple more questions, but like,"},{"startTime":2798.6949999999997,"endTime":2803.7549999999997,"body":"yeah."},{"startTime":2804.8149999999996,"endTime":2805.2349999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2805.2349999999997,"endTime":2810.035,"body":"And she was taking a test after I thought I had 20 more minutes, but she's waiting."},{"startTime":2810.663,"endTime":2819.042,"body":"I just, we've been talking about this phrase spiritual bypassing, which one of my"},{"startTime":2810.663,"endTime":2819.042,"body":"teacher's teachers, his name is John Wellwood."},{"startTime":2819.042,"endTime":2821.2369999999996,"body":"And so I have like so many good books."},{"startTime":2821.2369999999996,"endTime":2823.268,"body":"This is John Wellwood."},{"startTime":2823.268,"endTime":2825.9489999999996,"body":"This book is called Perfect Love and Perfect Relationships."},{"startTime":2825.9489999999996,"endTime":2829.991,"body":"And he's the person who coined the term spiritual bypassing."},{"startTime":2830.131,"endTime":2836.6859999999997,"body":"And so if people are feeling inspired and like wanting to keep going with this, he was a"},{"startTime":2836.6859999999997,"endTime":2849.009,"body":"beautifully embodied spiritual teacher who it was like the connection is found in the"},{"startTime":2836.6859999999997,"endTime":2849.009,"body":"descent."},{"startTime":2849.009,"endTime":2865.734,"body":"It's like it's in the bloody, raw, dirty, boring, mundane, the whole shebang, know, the"},{"startTime":2849.009,"endTime":2865.734,"body":"whole"},{"startTime":2866.6279999999997,"endTime":2869.1989999999996,"body":"during big picture of what it means to be human."},{"startTime":2869.1989999999996,"endTime":2871.511,"body":"That's where the spiritual connection is found."},{"startTime":2871.511,"endTime":2873.8619999999996,"body":"That's where eternity is found."},{"startTime":2875.243,"endTime":2876.774,"body":"And I adore his teachings."},{"startTime":2876.774,"endTime":2881.5159999999996,"body":"And so I just wanted to plug him since we're talking about spiritual bypassing."},{"startTime":2881.808,"endTime":2882.9959999999996,"body":"That's beautiful."},{"startTime":2883.555,"endTime":2897.2889999999998,"body":"are you saying that God is actually found in the midst of darkness, not on the Well, I'm"},{"startTime":2883.555,"endTime":2897.2889999999998,"body":"sorry to cut this short, but let's just do this again."},{"startTime":2897.2889999999998,"endTime":2898.548,"body":"This has been lovely."},{"startTime":2898.548,"endTime":2899.41,"body":"So good."},{"startTime":2899.41,"endTime":2903.5809999999997,"body":"feel like it's helped me not bypass some things today."},{"startTime":2903.5809999999997,"endTime":2907.352,"body":"It's just like going through my, there's this it's just been great."},{"startTime":2907.352,"endTime":2908.272,"body":"And you two are lovely."},{"startTime":2908.272,"endTime":2911.263,"body":"And this has been amazing."},{"startTime":2912.229,"endTime":2914.602,"body":"Yeah, you both."},{"startTime":2914.602,"endTime":2915.5899999999997,"body":"in real time."},{"startTime":2915.5899999999997,"endTime":2916.685,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2916.9049999999997,"endTime":2917.647,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":2917.647,"endTime":2918.85,"body":"We'll chat soon."},{"startTime":2918.85,"endTime":2919.482,"body":"Bye."},{"startTime":2919.482,"endTime":2921.216,"body":"Have some love."}]}