{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"startTime":107.338,"endTime":108.13900000000001,"body":"good morning."},{"startTime":108.13900000000001,"endTime":115.14500000000001,"body":"ah I feel like I am just barely getting started."},{"startTime":115.14500000000001,"endTime":117.30799999999999,"body":"You're the first person I've talked to today."},{"startTime":118.078,"endTime":121.873,"body":"And yeah, happy Father's Day."},{"startTime":122.004,"endTime":122.944,"body":"Thank you."},{"startTime":122.944,"endTime":123.644,"body":"I'm excited."},{"startTime":123.644,"endTime":124.284,"body":"It's gonna be a good one."},{"startTime":124.284,"endTime":129.824,"body":"think we're gonna, I'm gonna go to a movie with the kids and I think I'm gonna go to the"},{"startTime":124.284,"endTime":129.824,"body":"beach as well."},{"startTime":130.144,"endTime":132.364,"body":"So we, yeah."},{"startTime":133.144,"endTime":134.324,"body":"Oh no, I won't share that."},{"startTime":134.324,"endTime":135.724,"body":"I just, the kids are being really cute."},{"startTime":135.724,"endTime":140.12400000000002,"body":"It's fun when they're adults and they, I don't know, they're, they're, I don't know,"},{"startTime":135.724,"endTime":140.12400000000002,"body":"they're being cute."},{"startTime":140.244,"endTime":142.216,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":142.216,"endTime":145.16899999999998,"body":"at your Instagram because I haven't like fully tracked all your kids ages."},{"startTime":145.16899999999998,"endTime":147.846,"body":"You have like multiple grown adult children."},{"startTime":147.846,"endTime":149.337,"body":"Yeah, uh-huh."},{"startTime":149.337,"endTime":153.371,"body":"One just graduated high school even, so like, well, one is even older than that."},{"startTime":153.371,"endTime":157.595,"body":"So yeah, I've got two through high school, which is wild."},{"startTime":157.595,"endTime":159.40699999999998,"body":"I don't feel that old."},{"startTime":160.11599999999999,"endTime":165.871,"body":"Yeah, that's what Mormonism will do that to you, have full grown adult children at younger"},{"startTime":160.11599999999999,"endTime":165.871,"body":"than 50."},{"startTime":165.871,"endTime":168.926,"body":"You're like barely 40."},{"startTime":170.152,"endTime":170.652,"body":"mid- like mid-four."},{"startTime":170.652,"endTime":171.952,"body":"I turned 45."},{"startTime":171.952,"endTime":176.05200000000002,"body":"So, you know, I had my first when I was 24."},{"startTime":176.192,"endTime":178.652,"body":"So he's gonna be turning 21 this year."},{"startTime":179.772,"endTime":181.772,"body":"And it just it's so, you know, it's funny."},{"startTime":181.772,"endTime":191.79200000000003,"body":"I'll run into people all the time, you know, because I think all the years of clean"},{"startTime":181.772,"endTime":191.79200000000003,"body":"living, a lot of us ex-Mormons sometimes look a little younger than the average."},{"startTime":192.332,"endTime":197.356,"body":"People are always shocked when I tell them I have, you know, 20 year olds, but like..."},{"startTime":198.332,"endTime":200.303,"body":"It's an interesting way to do life though."},{"startTime":200.303,"endTime":211.719,"body":"You know, the more I've kind of come to terms with it, there's a lot of grieving of past"},{"startTime":200.303,"endTime":211.719,"body":"experiences and you know, the maybe normal human development if we call it normal, like"},{"startTime":211.719,"endTime":215.551,"body":"Stan, you know, yeah, going through the phases when you're supposed to go through the"},{"startTime":211.719,"endTime":215.551,"body":"phases."},{"startTime":215.551,"endTime":217.10199999999998,"body":"I mean, we've been talking about this a lot recently."},{"startTime":217.10199999999998,"endTime":228.06799999999998,"body":"Maybe this comes up in the episode a little bit, but it is just kind of also an"},{"startTime":217.10199999999998,"endTime":228.06799999999998,"body":"interesting way to do life where we kind of did the kids first and then now."},{"startTime":229.56,"endTime":238.06,"body":"re-entering and revisiting some of those moments in my life at 45 when I'm a little more"},{"startTime":229.56,"endTime":238.06,"body":"wise, a little more responsible."},{"startTime":239.06,"endTime":250.98000000000002,"body":"I don't know, so for me, I think it's been kind of a balance of what parts of my life do I"},{"startTime":239.06,"endTime":250.98000000000002,"body":"want to, what parts of that do I want to re-experience or what parts of that do I grieve"},{"startTime":250.98000000000002,"endTime":252.18,"body":"and let go of?"},{"startTime":252.18,"endTime":255.596,"body":"And it's kind of a dance between the two, I feel like a lot."},{"startTime":255.65800000000002,"endTime":256.67900000000003,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":257.654,"endTime":268.034,"body":"That just leads me into more questions that I have to ask, because that's what, as we were"},{"startTime":257.654,"endTime":268.034,"body":"talking before, I feel like I had questions for you about your experience with dating."},{"startTime":268.034,"endTime":271.874,"body":"And we've been talking about exploring sexuality after Mormonism."},{"startTime":271.874,"endTime":274.294,"body":"But it seems like you're alluding to maybe some of that."},{"startTime":274.294,"endTime":275.014,"body":"But I don't know."},{"startTime":275.014,"endTime":276.394,"body":"We can get there."},{"startTime":276.394,"endTime":278.114,"body":"We're going to get into it."},{"startTime":278.114,"endTime":278.654,"body":"Wait."},{"startTime":278.654,"endTime":287.05400000000003,"body":"Before you do, though, I wanted to also say, because I didn't ever respond, it's exciting"},{"startTime":278.654,"endTime":287.05400000000003,"body":"that you have those songs that you just got recorded."},{"startTime":287.64,"endTime":293.236,"body":"It sounds like it was a really good time and they're going to be, how are you going to"},{"startTime":287.64,"endTime":293.236,"body":"publish them or what are you going to do with them?"},{"startTime":293.236,"endTime":297.336,"body":"Yeah, so I think Doug and I have been recording music."},{"startTime":297.476,"endTime":302.736,"body":"We've got one recorded and two that are maybe like 80, 90 % there."},{"startTime":302.736,"endTime":305.676,"body":"I just did put more vocals on one of them yesterday."},{"startTime":306.356,"endTime":314.916,"body":"And I think sometime this year we're going to like drop a few of them and then kind of"},{"startTime":306.356,"endTime":314.916,"body":"enough for like an EP and hopefully for an album."},{"startTime":315.216,"endTime":322.676,"body":"So I mean, we've got enough songs, but it's been, yeah, it'll be on Spotify, all the"},{"startTime":315.216,"endTime":322.676,"body":"platforms, Apple Music, everything."},{"startTime":322.676,"endTime":325.776,"body":"under Bombadilio, the band name."},{"startTime":327.176,"endTime":330.676,"body":"No, that's been a, that's another thing about like reliving something."},{"startTime":330.676,"endTime":340.24399999999997,"body":"You know, I feel like a lot of people start a band with their friends in their twenties"},{"startTime":330.676,"endTime":340.24399999999997,"body":"and here I'm doing it at, you know, 45 with my friend."},{"startTime":340.24399999999997,"endTime":343.32599999999996,"body":"Yeah, yeah, it's so good."},{"startTime":343.32599999999996,"endTime":347.235,"body":"I love the music that I've heard from you and also your Nightingale."},{"startTime":347.235,"endTime":349.58799999999997,"body":"Have you talked about that on your podcast yet?"},{"startTime":349.58799999999997,"endTime":351.08799999999997,"body":"I have a little bit."},{"startTime":351.328,"endTime":354.868,"body":"So I do a YouTube channel."},{"startTime":354.868,"endTime":358.668,"body":"It's just, I think it's the handle is the Nightingale channel."},{"startTime":358.668,"endTime":370.14799999999997,"body":"And where I, it's more of like a raw singing process or raw music process where I just at"},{"startTime":358.668,"endTime":370.14799999999997,"body":"night, usually when I'm like in that creative process of just singing to myself or playing"},{"startTime":370.14799999999997,"endTime":379.884,"body":"my songs I've written or trying to write new songs, you know, I'm usually just there by"},{"startTime":370.14799999999997,"endTime":379.884,"body":"myself and I'm like, oh, what if I just hit play?"},{"startTime":379.884,"endTime":381.505,"body":"and started recording that."},{"startTime":381.505,"endTime":385.118,"body":"And at first, you know, my first videos were all, it was just my voice."},{"startTime":385.118,"endTime":390.77299999999997,"body":"Now I'm starting to like turn on the camera, but I did one last night actually, well like"},{"startTime":385.118,"endTime":390.77299999999997,"body":"late last night, like 1 a.m."},{"startTime":390.77299999999997,"endTime":391.853,"body":"Utah time."},{"startTime":392.054,"endTime":393.765,"body":"But I just had one candle going."},{"startTime":393.765,"endTime":398.138,"body":"So anyway, you can vaguely see me in it, but it's just me."},{"startTime":398.259,"endTime":398.709,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":398.709,"endTime":402.48199999999997,"body":"Sometimes I'm a little drunk, sometimes a little tipsy, sometimes a little high, sometimes"},{"startTime":398.709,"endTime":402.48199999999997,"body":"it's just me."},{"startTime":402.48199999999997,"endTime":403.02299999999997,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":403.02299999999997,"endTime":405.414,"body":"But just a way of like..."},{"startTime":405.896,"endTime":413.062,"body":"I feel like dropping people into that creative space where it's okay to be a little messy"},{"startTime":405.896,"endTime":413.062,"body":"and weird and it's vulnerable."},{"startTime":413.062,"endTime":425.543,"body":"It feels a little bit like, know, metaphorically kind of like an OnlyFans like, you know,"},{"startTime":413.062,"endTime":425.543,"body":"masturbating late at night, but like not literally, but burying a part of my soul, like it"},{"startTime":425.543,"endTime":426.353,"body":"feels very vulnerable."},{"startTime":426.353,"endTime":428.95599999999996,"body":"And so it took me a while to kind of work up the courage to do it."},{"startTime":428.95599999999996,"endTime":430.656,"body":"I kind of like that."},{"startTime":430.656,"endTime":432.33799999999997,"body":"I actually really liked it."},{"startTime":432.33799999999997,"endTime":434.794,"body":"I mean, not a lot of people are."},{"startTime":434.794,"endTime":435.376,"body":"look."},{"startTime":435.376,"endTime":445.683,"body":"because it's like, I want it to grow at the pace where I'm comfortable being, I don't want"},{"startTime":435.376,"endTime":445.683,"body":"to get to the point where there's too many people that I now feel, I don't feel"},{"startTime":445.683,"endTime":447.724,"body":"comfortable being vulnerable in that space."},{"startTime":447.724,"endTime":452.027,"body":"oh So it's a dance with that too, a lot of dances."},{"startTime":452.027,"endTime":455.048,"body":"But first of all, we're joined by Kelly Christine Case."},{"startTime":455.048,"endTime":461.202,"body":"uh Again, Kelly, I just, I'm always so excited when you want to come and chat."},{"startTime":461.202,"endTime":463.924,"body":"And we've been like, you know, switching Marco Polo's back and forth."},{"startTime":463.924,"endTime":468.137,"body":"So we have got a lot we could talk about, want to talk about."},{"startTime":468.137,"endTime":473.841,"body":"And I know we've kind of dipped in a little bit here, but what's, what's on your mind?"},{"startTime":475.042,"endTime":481.347,"body":"Well, first, do you want to just like, I mean, I, I like, we'll plug your stuff at the"},{"startTime":475.042,"endTime":481.347,"body":"end."},{"startTime":481.347,"endTime":481.897,"body":"Let's do that."},{"startTime":481.897,"endTime":483.37899999999996,"body":"But like, uh, yeah."},{"startTime":483.37899999999996,"endTime":489.654,"body":"I've been kind of on a hiatus and I've been describing it as a cocoon and being really"},{"startTime":483.37899999999996,"endTime":489.654,"body":"introverted."},{"startTime":489.654,"endTime":500.02299999999997,"body":"And as soon as I did that, I had like several people come to me and wanting to work with"},{"startTime":489.654,"endTime":500.02299999999997,"body":"me because I do a somatic therapy method, but I'm not like super actively promoting my"},{"startTime":500.02299999999997,"endTime":505.256,"body":"work with people right now, but I could say more later, but yeah."},{"startTime":505.256,"endTime":509.71799999999996,"body":"but you've also been more prominent on TikTok and social media, I've noticed."},{"startTime":509.71799999999996,"endTime":511.918,"body":"Yeah, and that was not intentional."},{"startTime":511.918,"endTime":521.258,"body":"was just almost like when I drew my energy back from other places in my personal life, it"},{"startTime":511.918,"endTime":521.258,"body":"was like, oh, there's more energy available to show up on TikTok I've been on."},{"startTime":521.258,"endTime":527.838,"body":"And it's been a lot more fuck it energy, a lot more like, this is just, I just gotta put"},{"startTime":521.258,"endTime":527.838,"body":"it out there."},{"startTime":527.838,"endTime":529.3100000000001,"body":"So yeah."},{"startTime":529.3100000000001,"endTime":536.523,"body":"But I think that's where the magic comes from is those moments where it's like, I'm not"},{"startTime":529.3100000000001,"endTime":536.523,"body":"doing this for any reason other than I just feel like I want to share and share my voice."},{"startTime":536.523,"endTime":549.448,"body":"And it's, it's also interesting that what you were kind of talking about, like the more"},{"startTime":536.523,"endTime":549.448,"body":"you pulled your energy in, it feels like you haven't needed to seek out opportunities or"},{"startTime":549.448,"endTime":551.939,"body":"like, I don't know, like more things are coming."},{"startTime":551.939,"endTime":559.212,"body":"There's like a magnetism there of just being in your center, your power, calling back your"},{"startTime":551.939,"endTime":559.212,"body":"own."},{"startTime":560.077,"endTime":571.6310000000001,"body":"I've found for myself, the more I've had boundaries over my time and my alone time, the"},{"startTime":560.077,"endTime":571.6310000000001,"body":"more I naturally get experiences, they just kind of come to me."},{"startTime":571.6310000000001,"endTime":572.921,"body":"I've been enjoying that."},{"startTime":572.921,"endTime":583.63,"body":"Like, I feel like there was a long time of like, a big part of me that was trying to, that"},{"startTime":572.921,"endTime":583.63,"body":"was fixating on other people and trying to control them, even though I didn't think that's"},{"startTime":583.63,"endTime":586.3420000000001,"body":"what I was doing, unconsciously that's what I was doing."},{"startTime":586.402,"endTime":596.51,"body":"And I think recently I had this shift where I was like, I cannot even indirectly in the"},{"startTime":586.402,"endTime":596.51,"body":"most spiritually conscious way."},{"startTime":597.034,"endTime":598.385,"body":"control other people's choices."},{"startTime":598.385,"endTime":602.6370000000001,"body":"Even if I tell myself I'm just being a good influence, it's for their own good, it's for"},{"startTime":598.385,"endTime":602.6370000000001,"body":"my own good."},{"startTime":602.6370000000001,"endTime":613.743,"body":"It was like being able to see this really subtle and insidious way that I was subtly"},{"startTime":602.6370000000001,"endTime":613.743,"body":"trying to get other people to do what I want so that I like, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":613.743,"endTime":615.744,"body":"It was like still ego."},{"startTime":616.004,"endTime":627.13,"body":"And so I just was like, wait a minute, the richness of just sitting in my own energy and"},{"startTime":616.004,"endTime":627.13,"body":"enjoying my own peace and quiet."},{"startTime":627.538,"endTime":630.7,"body":"is so full and that's all I need."},{"startTime":630.7,"endTime":635.5020000000001,"body":"And em yeah, that was a couple of months ago."},{"startTime":635.763,"endTime":638.154,"body":"That is just like you're saying, it's like a magnetism."},{"startTime":638.154,"endTime":643.8670000000001,"body":"Cause as soon as I have done that, it's like, there's been this just like energetic"},{"startTime":638.154,"endTime":643.8670000000001,"body":"abundance."},{"startTime":643.8670000000001,"endTime":647.139,"body":"Like I feel like I have so much time and energy to think for myself."},{"startTime":647.139,"endTime":651.311,"body":"That's what I'm posting on TikTok is like live for yourself, think for yourself."},{"startTime":651.311,"endTime":656.726,"body":"That's like the essence of what I have to say right now in life is, em"},{"startTime":656.726,"endTime":670.066,"body":"talking about recovering from codependence, and I think specifically Mormon codependence,"},{"startTime":656.726,"endTime":670.066,"body":"this specific flavor of it that I just think no one gets out of Mormonism without it,"},{"startTime":670.066,"endTime":673.166,"body":"because if you didn't have..."},{"startTime":673.166,"endTime":675.466,"body":"Because Mormonism is controlling you."},{"startTime":675.466,"endTime":676.9060000000001,"body":"It's all about control."},{"startTime":676.966,"endTime":683.586,"body":"So anyways, I won't go too far down that rubble hole right now, but anything that I have"},{"startTime":676.966,"endTime":683.586,"body":"to say right now kind of revolves around that."},{"startTime":683.966,"endTime":684.476,"body":"So."},{"startTime":684.476,"endTime":696.129,"body":"that controlling, it's like, so I had to, I don't know how much I'm gonna get into this"},{"startTime":684.476,"endTime":696.129,"body":"either, but like uh the recent Aubrey Marcus podcast that's been like making waves, you"},{"startTime":696.129,"endTime":697.9200000000001,"body":"know, throughout the spiritual community."},{"startTime":697.9200000000001,"endTime":704.9920000000001,"body":"And for those, know, listening, don't know about our, I think there's, I think there's a"},{"startTime":697.9200000000001,"endTime":704.9920000000001,"body":"pretty good Venn diagram of people who listen to this podcast and who at least know who"},{"startTime":704.9920000000001,"endTime":705.962,"body":"Aubrey Marcus is."},{"startTime":705.962,"endTime":713.5540000000001,"body":"oh Because he has such a, like a, a uh face in the new age spiritual community."},{"startTime":713.7520000000001,"endTime":725.942,"body":"and especially in the last few years because of like his divine union with it"},{"startTime":713.7520000000001,"endTime":725.942,"body":"quote-unquote with the big big with his Wi-Fi Lana they've been kind of like the poster"},{"startTime":725.942,"endTime":736.7510000000001,"body":"children of this uh Monogamy divine union type stuff and then recently he came up and said"},{"startTime":725.942,"endTime":736.7510000000001,"body":"that God commanded him to take a third into the mix a very Joseph Smith like vibes it"},{"startTime":736.7510000000001,"endTime":743.364,"body":"wasn't like an angel with a flaming sword it was the goddess Isis and You know, we don't"},{"startTime":736.7510000000001,"endTime":743.364,"body":"have go too much in this I when"},{"startTime":743.364,"endTime":746.3660000000001,"body":"A couple weeks ago really wanted to go hard on this."},{"startTime":746.3660000000001,"endTime":754.192,"body":"But then I listened to that Zelf on the Shelf, Sam and Tanner did an episode that I was"},{"startTime":746.3660000000001,"endTime":754.192,"body":"just going point people to because it's so good."},{"startTime":754.192,"endTime":766.33,"body":"But one of the things, why this is coming up for me is I noticed patterns in, not to the"},{"startTime":754.192,"endTime":766.33,"body":"extreme, like I was never one of those guys who's like, I've got a priesthood revolution"},{"startTime":766.33,"endTime":768.7420000000001,"body":"that you need to be, you we get married or..."},{"startTime":768.7420000000001,"endTime":772.254,"body":"oh But the ways I subtly..."},{"startTime":772.254,"endTime":782.1080000000001,"body":"have manipulated a little bit to like, and even like in a benevolent way, quote unquote,"},{"startTime":772.254,"endTime":782.1080000000001,"body":"to try to get my needs met instead of just going for them directly."},{"startTime":782.1080000000001,"endTime":787.1070000000001,"body":"oh And it was an interesting mirror for me and watching that episode."},{"startTime":787.1070000000001,"endTime":791.302,"body":"like, ooh, I have a bit of an Abbey Marcus in me sometimes."},{"startTime":791.302,"endTime":792.5070000000001,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":792.5070000000001,"endTime":793.027,"body":"It's good."},{"startTime":793.027,"endTime":796.4680000000001,"body":"that, that who, who among us does not, right?"},{"startTime":796.769,"endTime":804.6320000000001,"body":"It's helpful that I've been talking a lot about how this concept of the sacrificial lamb"},{"startTime":796.769,"endTime":804.6320000000001,"body":"that we get from Mormonism with Jesus."},{"startTime":804.652,"endTime":811.495,"body":"And in a way I'm like, Aubrey Marcus is our sacrificial lamb of the perfect example of"},{"startTime":804.652,"endTime":811.495,"body":"what not to do."},{"startTime":811.495,"endTime":817.418,"body":"Like how to, how to be a lying manipulator, because that's what's happening."},{"startTime":817.418,"endTime":821.74,"body":"Like he's practicing polyamory and he's calling it radical monogamy."},{"startTime":822.2130000000001,"endTime":825.917,"body":"Like, that's a confusing experience to have."},{"startTime":825.917,"endTime":833.364,"body":"anyways, yeah, in a way I'm like, okay, I can look to, yeah, the part of myself that's"},{"startTime":825.917,"endTime":833.364,"body":"full of shit like that."},{"startTime":833.5450000000001,"endTime":836.157,"body":"And I can see it in this outside person."},{"startTime":836.157,"endTime":841.673,"body":"yeah, use it as to look inward at how am I doing that?"},{"startTime":841.673,"endTime":842.033,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":842.033,"endTime":843.2080000000001,"body":"oh"},{"startTime":843.2080000000001,"endTime":850.212,"body":"I think, you know, some of the best medicine, whether it literally or metaphorically, is"},{"startTime":843.2080000000001,"endTime":850.212,"body":"to just smell your own farts, you know what I mean?"},{"startTime":850.212,"endTime":855.5550000000001,"body":"To realize that, like, occasionally we're full of shit, both literally and metaphorically."},{"startTime":855.5550000000001,"endTime":860.278,"body":"um you know, it wasn't necessarily like what you're calling out."},{"startTime":860.278,"endTime":871.0260000000001,"body":"Like, I, when I was listening back to his episode that he did where they announced this"},{"startTime":860.278,"endTime":871.0260000000001,"body":"new threeple they're in, um and calling it radical monogamy."},{"startTime":871.0260000000001,"endTime":876.488,"body":"You know, the thing is, it was triggering all my Mormon Spidey senses."},{"startTime":876.488,"endTime":888.2940000000001,"body":"And one of the things that I've loved about, I shouldn't say I loved, but like I've come"},{"startTime":876.488,"endTime":888.2940000000001,"body":"to realize that through my Mormon experience, I've gained some, there's been some, because"},{"startTime":888.2940000000001,"endTime":893.6260000000001,"body":"we've been through this thing where we were so into something, manipulated and then lost"},{"startTime":888.2940000000001,"endTime":893.6260000000001,"body":"it."},{"startTime":893.926,"endTime":896.907,"body":"It's like my cult radar kind of."},{"startTime":897.768,"endTime":902.73,"body":"buzzes maybe sooner than people who haven't gone through an experience like that."},{"startTime":902.73,"endTime":906.9910000000001,"body":"uh so it was nothing about what they were doing."},{"startTime":906.9910000000001,"endTime":913.0640000000001,"body":"If he was just saying, hey, I know Vailana and I were in a marriage and now we're not."},{"startTime":913.0640000000001,"endTime":917.0250000000001,"body":"We decided together that we wanted to open up to a third and here's the third and this."},{"startTime":917.0250000000001,"endTime":919.416,"body":"I think people would be like, fuck yes."},{"startTime":919.416,"endTime":919.7420000000001,"body":"No."},{"startTime":919.7420000000001,"endTime":921.904,"body":"it's like I cannot punctuate that enough."},{"startTime":921.904,"endTime":923.0250000000001,"body":"No one cares."},{"startTime":923.0250000000001,"endTime":932.5300000000001,"body":"No one cares how many or how little people you sleep with if you're being open and honest"},{"startTime":923.0250000000001,"endTime":932.5300000000001,"body":"and people are reacting to lying and yeah."},{"startTime":932.5300000000001,"endTime":935.0310000000001,"body":"So it's like got the energy of cheating."},{"startTime":935.0310000000001,"endTime":936.932,"body":"It's like, but how he's not cheating."},{"startTime":936.932,"endTime":938.0930000000001,"body":"He's doing a whole podcast."},{"startTime":938.0930000000001,"endTime":942.505,"body":"He's claiming that he's owning it and he's in full integrity with himself and with God."},{"startTime":942.505,"endTime":945.3670000000001,"body":"It's like, that is part of the lie."},{"startTime":945.3670000000001,"endTime":947.798,"body":"Like, yeah."},{"startTime":947.8660000000001,"endTime":958.201,"body":"Yeah, and this thing of like, because I agree with most of what they say about like"},{"startTime":947.8660000000001,"endTime":958.201,"body":"monogamy in the first part that, you know, that like, humans, we have to like, we claim to"},{"startTime":958.201,"endTime":968.966,"body":"be a lot more monogamous than we are, you know, most people are either uh practicing as"},{"startTime":958.201,"endTime":968.966,"body":"form of like, uh serial monogamy, where they're going from partner to partner to partner."},{"startTime":968.966,"endTime":973.868,"body":"um Or, uh I don't know."},{"startTime":974.3000000000001,"endTime":977.5020000000001,"body":"I just, I agreed with that first part of the episode a lot."},{"startTime":977.5020000000001,"endTime":985.806,"body":"oh But I did then, um but one point I think though, a lot of people would care."},{"startTime":985.806,"endTime":997.8620000000001,"body":"I think one of the, or he feels like a lot would because he set himself up as the example"},{"startTime":985.806,"endTime":997.8620000000001,"body":"of this like divine union, which, cause he was polyamorous before."},{"startTime":998.332,"endTime":1000.533,"body":"And then he's like, no, this is the true way."},{"startTime":1000.533,"endTime":1010.88,"body":"Anytime we're getting to like the true way stuff, that's where it gets tricky because then"},{"startTime":1000.533,"endTime":1010.88,"body":"it's like, no, God has shown me that I need to be in a divine union with someone and they"},{"startTime":1010.88,"endTime":1012.8810000000001,"body":"become the image of that."},{"startTime":1012.8810000000001,"endTime":1022.388,"body":"Then you need to double down and say, wait, no, now the goddess Isis told me, you know,"},{"startTime":1012.8810000000001,"endTime":1022.388,"body":"that's the way I think this, what Joseph Smith got caught up in too is like this."},{"startTime":1022.388,"endTime":1023.336,"body":"Once you."},{"startTime":1023.336,"endTime":1025.4569999999999,"body":"People believe you're ordained of God."},{"startTime":1025.4569999999999,"endTime":1027.288,"body":"You have to double down."},{"startTime":1027.288,"endTime":1029.279,"body":"It's what the church gets into nowadays."},{"startTime":1029.279,"endTime":1032.62,"body":"Everything has to be a little revelation."},{"startTime":1032.84,"endTime":1034.901,"body":"you can never admit you were wrong."},{"startTime":1034.901,"endTime":1037.362,"body":"You can never admit this."},{"startTime":1037.362,"endTime":1038.363,"body":"You can't apologize."},{"startTime":1038.363,"endTime":1041.224,"body":"You gotta keep doubling down on your revelations."},{"startTime":1041.278,"endTime":1049.48,"body":"Yeah, and I only watched the first 30 minutes of the podcast, but in the first couple of"},{"startTime":1041.278,"endTime":1049.48,"body":"minutes, he said, I'm not trying to say this is how everyone has to live."},{"startTime":1049.48,"endTime":1050.711,"body":"This is just what we're doing."},{"startTime":1050.711,"endTime":1057.892,"body":"But then apparently like the whole rest of the podcast is about how this is an evolution"},{"startTime":1050.711,"endTime":1057.892,"body":"of love for like the human fucking species."},{"startTime":1057.892,"endTime":1063.084,"body":"It's like, I just immediately knew that he was gaslighting me when he was saying that."},{"startTime":1063.084,"endTime":1065.885,"body":"And then, yeah, that's like, um, and you're right."},{"startTime":1065.885,"endTime":1071.466,"body":"So this is where you're pointing to something that's really important about the difference"},{"startTime":1065.885,"endTime":1071.466,"body":"between"},{"startTime":1071.6299999999999,"endTime":1081.157,"body":"Codependence which is always inherently woven in with narcissism and narcissistic abuse"},{"startTime":1071.6299999999999,"endTime":1081.157,"body":"and That's like a buzzword."},{"startTime":1081.157,"endTime":1090.0130000000001,"body":"That's like a whole other thing that I won't necessarily get into But I do feel like"},{"startTime":1081.157,"endTime":1090.0130000000001,"body":"Aubrey Marcus is like a poster child to me Maybe everyone wouldn't agree with this, but"},{"startTime":1090.0130000000001,"endTime":1100.27,"body":"I'm like the he is the picture We very rarely have like a perfect example to point to of"},{"startTime":1090.0130000000001,"endTime":1100.27,"body":"like this is narcissistic abuse, especially in that podcast um"},{"startTime":1100.5320000000002,"endTime":1105.204,"body":"But I was saying, oh shoot, I just lost my train of thought."},{"startTime":1105.204,"endTime":1113.1670000000001,"body":"Oh, it was, it was, was, cause you were saying that, you were like, well, I think some"},{"startTime":1105.204,"endTime":1113.1670000000001,"body":"people would care."},{"startTime":1113.3220000000001,"endTime":1124.732,"body":"And there's so many examples of people in the public eye who have a following, who've"},{"startTime":1113.3220000000001,"endTime":1124.732,"body":"built a whole following, let's say, around like being vegan."},{"startTime":1124.733,"endTime":1128.022,"body":"And then they say, I'm not vegan anymore."},{"startTime":1128.022,"endTime":1128.862,"body":"And guess what?"},{"startTime":1128.862,"endTime":1132.202,"body":"They have to pay the price of authenticity."},{"startTime":1132.202,"endTime":1141.3020000000001,"body":"Like that's the exact opposite of codependence and the insanity of narcissistic abuse is"},{"startTime":1132.202,"endTime":1141.3020000000001,"body":"that you are going to upset people."},{"startTime":1141.3020000000001,"endTime":1144.662,"body":"People are going to say every bad thing about you."},{"startTime":1144.742,"endTime":1154.482,"body":"And you have to have the sense of self and the willingness to be in truth to let people"},{"startTime":1144.742,"endTime":1154.482,"body":"not like you."},{"startTime":1155.122,"endTime":1158.002,"body":"his, in Aubrey Marcus's case,"},{"startTime":1158.0040000000001,"endTime":1167.145,"body":"He has a much stronger agenda to have fans than actually to be in his truth."},{"startTime":1167.145,"endTime":1168.4460000000001,"body":"So that's my..."},{"startTime":1169.256,"endTime":1172.769,"body":"Well, and as a mirror for myself with that, because I think about that often."},{"startTime":1172.769,"endTime":1177.063,"body":"thought about this with the podcast a lot, you know, with Mormons on Mushrooms."},{"startTime":1177.063,"endTime":1188.602,"body":"I mean, I feel like Doug and I, the most part, have been, and we've kept each other in"},{"startTime":1177.063,"endTime":1188.602,"body":"check with this a lot of like, look, we don't want this to be us preaching, this is, this"},{"startTime":1188.602,"endTime":1196.219,"body":"is a new way to do it, or this is the way, whenever we get into that spot of this is the"},{"startTime":1188.602,"endTime":1196.219,"body":"way, we have to check ourselves."},{"startTime":1196.219,"endTime":1197.45,"body":"And it's, you know,"},{"startTime":1197.45,"endTime":1198.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":1198.29,"endTime":1199.521,"body":"the way, right?"},{"startTime":1199.521,"endTime":1210.873,"body":"Instead of like, this is a fun thing we found and this is a fun story that happened and"},{"startTime":1199.521,"endTime":1210.873,"body":"maybe you get something out of me telling the story about my life that resonates with you."},{"startTime":1210.873,"endTime":1221.928,"body":"uh But it becomes a little bit like, uh you know, from Mormon terms, Lehi's dream, as soon"},{"startTime":1210.873,"endTime":1221.928,"body":"as you pick the fruit, taste it, and it's that."},{"startTime":1221.928,"endTime":1229.828,"body":"That connection with source that we have a lot, those spiritual moments, whether they come"},{"startTime":1221.928,"endTime":1229.828,"body":"through meditation, whether they come through an experience you had in the Mormon church,"},{"startTime":1229.828,"endTime":1238.5240000000001,"body":"whether it comes through like a plant medicine ceremony, this experience of like tasting"},{"startTime":1229.828,"endTime":1238.5240000000001,"body":"the fruit and then saying, telling everyone, this is the way everyone needs to taste this"},{"startTime":1238.5240000000001,"endTime":1238.794,"body":"fruit."},{"startTime":1238.794,"endTime":1244.394,"body":"And as soon as you do that, you're setting up, that's when the cult forms around it."},{"startTime":1244.394,"endTime":1251.0140000000001,"body":"and as in proper culty confessional form because Mormons have such a fixation on"},{"startTime":1244.394,"endTime":1251.0140000000001,"body":"confession."},{"startTime":1251.0140000000001,"endTime":1255.054,"body":"I'm like fully confessing to like totally guilty of that."},{"startTime":1255.054,"endTime":1260.174,"body":"Like I left Mormonism 11, 12 years, like more than 10 years ago."},{"startTime":1260.914,"endTime":1268.977,"body":"And I have been such an evangelist for every other cool thing I have found since then."},{"startTime":1268.977,"endTime":1278.251,"body":"I'm working on deconstructing the way that Mormonism had built an infrastructure in my"},{"startTime":1268.977,"endTime":1278.251,"body":"brain to take anything, not just, that's where you're saying like you agreed with the"},{"startTime":1278.251,"endTime":1282.7930000000001,"body":"content of what Aubrey Marcus was saying in the beginning of the podcast about monogamy."},{"startTime":1282.7930000000001,"endTime":1285.624,"body":"And it's like, it kind of doesn't even matter what the content is."},{"startTime":1285.624,"endTime":1290.3700000000001,"body":"If the structure that's holding the content is, um,"},{"startTime":1291.683,"endTime":1299.265,"body":"abusive, like if it's an abusive religion or relationship structure, it's like, it doesn't"},{"startTime":1291.683,"endTime":1299.265,"body":"matter how good the times are."},{"startTime":1299.265,"endTime":1300.04,"body":"You know what I'm saying?"},{"startTime":1300.04,"endTime":1301.191,"body":"Like it's like it."},{"startTime":1301.191,"endTime":1303.983,"body":"And so anyways, that's what I have had to come to realize."},{"startTime":1303.983,"endTime":1313.121,"body":"Like, after I left Mormonism, I picked up so many other cool spiritual truths and like"},{"startTime":1303.983,"endTime":1313.121,"body":"belief systems that are so much less harmful."},{"startTime":1313.121,"endTime":1319.406,"body":"But then I continued perpetuating harm in the Mormon culty way that I was."},{"startTime":1320.348,"endTime":1322.659,"body":"have been carrying those things."},{"startTime":1323.17,"endTime":1325.448,"body":"We're natural evangelists, right?"},{"startTime":1325.448,"endTime":1327.0040000000001,"body":"Leaving Mormonism, we're good at..."},{"startTime":1327.0040000000001,"endTime":1329.1570000000002,"body":"Well, it was funny because..."},{"startTime":1329.1570000000002,"endTime":1332.862,"body":"you know, like, because I was like, I want to knock down those doors, like."},{"startTime":1333.262,"endTime":1333.842,"body":"Exactly."},{"startTime":1333.842,"endTime":1336.334,"body":"And you know, there's an adorable part of Mormonism with that."},{"startTime":1336.334,"endTime":1339.015,"body":"Like, so you were talking about us recording music."},{"startTime":1339.7160000000001,"endTime":1346.319,"body":"We recorded last week with a uh producer out here in Los Angeles, and he set us up with a"},{"startTime":1339.7160000000001,"endTime":1346.319,"body":"drummer."},{"startTime":1346.779,"endTime":1350.0510000000002,"body":"And we had such a blast, the four of us in there."},{"startTime":1350.0510000000002,"endTime":1354.294,"body":"know, Doug and I, this is only our second time in a recording studio."},{"startTime":1354.294,"endTime":1362.8220000000001,"body":"And so we're just like novices, you know, and uh I still don't even know how to play my"},{"startTime":1354.294,"endTime":1362.8220000000001,"body":"guitar to like a click track, like a rhythm, like..."},{"startTime":1362.8220000000001,"endTime":1364.1380000000001,"body":"Okay, yeah."},{"startTime":1364.1380000000001,"endTime":1364.999,"body":"did the grunt work."},{"startTime":1364.999,"endTime":1368.231,"body":"He's been learning that, uh but it's not natural for him either."},{"startTime":1368.231,"endTime":1372.393,"body":"We're used to playing live where you don't need to keep it at that pace."},{"startTime":1372.393,"endTime":1380.7830000000001,"body":"And so he's in there sweating, just trying to get the guitar track down, you know, and, uh"},{"startTime":1372.393,"endTime":1380.7830000000001,"body":"but I bring it up because, you know, we get self-conscious about that."},{"startTime":1380.7830000000001,"endTime":1388.5030000000002,"body":"So we're in there in that space and we're just like, look, yes, we're sorry that like we,"},{"startTime":1380.7830000000001,"endTime":1388.5030000000002,"body":"we're not, we're shitty technical musicians."},{"startTime":1388.5030000000002,"endTime":1390.204,"body":"Like I think like,"},{"startTime":1390.3880000000001,"endTime":1394.488,"body":"We are musicians, just technical is what we struggle at."},{"startTime":1394.488,"endTime":1398.328,"body":"And they're like, look, we're loving your guys' kid in the candy store energy here."},{"startTime":1398.328,"endTime":1399.308,"body":"It's like everything is new."},{"startTime":1399.308,"endTime":1404.268,"body":"Everything is like, and I'm like, okay, well, we can keep bringing those vibes."},{"startTime":1404.268,"endTime":1413.048,"body":"And I think a lot of times leaving Mormonism, it's kind of, we do kind of have that kid in"},{"startTime":1404.268,"endTime":1413.048,"body":"the candy store type energy on new things and new experiences."},{"startTime":1413.448,"endTime":1415.468,"body":"I don't know."},{"startTime":1415.468,"endTime":1420.252,"body":"I guess we could go like how, cause now at 10 years,"},{"startTime":1420.252,"endTime":1422.144,"body":"Like, what are some of the things you learn?"},{"startTime":1422.144,"endTime":1425.246,"body":"And we've talked about a little bit monogamy, non-monogamy."},{"startTime":1425.246,"endTime":1430.275,"body":"We've talked about, I don't know, we could go in a variety of different ways, but I want"},{"startTime":1425.246,"endTime":1430.275,"body":"to know what fills the life for you right now."},{"startTime":1430.275,"endTime":1442.6090000000002,"body":"kind of wanted to hear more because you and I were chatting on Marco Polo um when we were"},{"startTime":1430.275,"endTime":1442.6090000000002,"body":"talking about this Aubrey Marcus thing and you had mentioned, I mean, yeah, we can go"},{"startTime":1442.6090000000002,"endTime":1442.929,"body":"anyway."},{"startTime":1442.929,"endTime":1448.8220000000001,"body":"I think I'm just kind of curious about what you're learning and experiencing about life."},{"startTime":1448.8220000000001,"endTime":1457.4650000000001,"body":"And like you said, there's um this is how I think I was describing it to you, kind of"},{"startTime":1448.8220000000001,"endTime":1457.4650000000001,"body":"repeating what we were saying on Marco Polo."},{"startTime":1457.75,"endTime":1469.923,"body":"ah This is my take that um a healthy human being has natural psychological uh development"},{"startTime":1457.75,"endTime":1469.923,"body":"and that needs to happen through stages of their life."},{"startTime":1469.923,"endTime":1473.486,"body":"m"},{"startTime":1475.614,"endTime":1484.8210000000001,"body":"like indigenous cultures have rites of passage to facilitate, like there's like a lot,"},{"startTime":1475.614,"endTime":1484.8210000000001,"body":"it's not just one that you have, you know, it's like leaving from childhood into early"},{"startTime":1484.8210000000001,"endTime":1496.0900000000001,"body":"adolescence and then adolescence into early adulthood and then early adulthood into true"},{"startTime":1484.8210000000001,"endTime":1496.0900000000001,"body":"adulthood and then at elderhood, you know, it's like you have so many passages and we do"},{"startTime":1496.0900000000001,"endTime":1501.714,"body":"have um rituals in Mormonism that have equally"},{"startTime":1502.262,"endTime":1508.155,"body":"Cause like whether you have a cult ritual or like some grounded down to earth indigenous"},{"startTime":1502.262,"endTime":1508.155,"body":"ritual, they work."},{"startTime":1508.155,"endTime":1509.6860000000001,"body":"It's a technology is what it is."},{"startTime":1509.6860000000001,"endTime":1511.727,"body":"Like it affects your psyche."},{"startTime":1511.808,"endTime":1529.962,"body":"And so we had all these like Mormon rites of passages that were specifically set up to get"},{"startTime":1511.808,"endTime":1529.962,"body":"us to be good Mormon tithe payers and not to individuate."},{"startTime":1529.962,"endTime":1536.647,"body":"psychologically to become a self, become the unique person that you are."},{"startTime":1536.8880000000001,"endTime":1546.775,"body":"And so what I was saying is that we leave Mormonism and it's like the natural"},{"startTime":1536.8880000000001,"endTime":1546.775,"body":"developmental process that had been stopped."},{"startTime":1546.775,"endTime":1550.948,"body":"It's been a stoppage that's been waiting to get unstopped."},{"startTime":1550.948,"endTime":1555.952,"body":"Like as soon as the conditions are right, those processes can pick back up."},{"startTime":1556.24,"endTime":1568.2150000000001,"body":"And so a lot of this conversation about polyamory and monogamy, a lot of times I think"},{"startTime":1556.24,"endTime":1568.2150000000001,"body":"that people are talking about, because those are, those both of those words are nouns."},{"startTime":1568.2150000000001,"endTime":1573.457,"body":"So they're talking about them, whether it's something that is a good idea to do or not."},{"startTime":1574.8780000000002,"endTime":1582.001,"body":"But we as humans and our individual individuation process and our psychological"},{"startTime":1574.8780000000002,"endTime":1582.001,"body":"development is a verb."},{"startTime":1582.001,"endTime":1584.7820000000002,"body":"It's a process that's underway."},{"startTime":1584.9940000000001,"endTime":1595.864,"body":"And I think of it like a river that's ideally flowing and then it's like it gets frozen by"},{"startTime":1584.9940000000001,"endTime":1595.864,"body":"Mormonism and certain aspects of the river maybe can continue on."},{"startTime":1595.864,"endTime":1602.06,"body":"And that's where we're encouraged to, you know, pursue a career and you, you know, get a"},{"startTime":1595.864,"endTime":1602.06,"body":"degree, get degrees."},{"startTime":1602.06,"endTime":1604.192,"body":"And so we can develop in all these certain ways."},{"startTime":1604.192,"endTime":1611.368,"body":"And then things like our sexuality are hindered and stayed frozen and never got to truly"},{"startTime":1611.5720000000001,"endTime":1615.243,"body":"Develop and be unstuck let alone be integrated."},{"startTime":1615.243,"endTime":1633.329,"body":"So we have people who are ex-mormon in you know, leaving getting divorced uh or opening"},{"startTime":1615.243,"endTime":1633.329,"body":"their marriages in like middle of adulthood and So ah I was kind of I think advocating for"},{"startTime":1633.329,"endTime":1638.3300000000002,"body":"how it's we need to just change the way that we're thinking about this because"},{"startTime":1638.482,"endTime":1643.095,"body":"everybody in their body who leaves Mormonism can sense, like something needs to happen."},{"startTime":1643.095,"endTime":1650.3700000000001,"body":"Like there's this development that wants to happen and that's life-giving and right."},{"startTime":1650.43,"endTime":1662.998,"body":"And yet it seems like it's going to fuck up my whole life because I have to pick up the"},{"startTime":1650.43,"endTime":1662.998,"body":"process, like maybe the psychosexual developmental process that got stopped when I was..."},{"startTime":1664.118,"endTime":1676.198,"body":"19 or 16 or 15 or whatever everyone's situation is different, you know, and yeah, so I was"},{"startTime":1664.118,"endTime":1676.198,"body":"advocating for thinking of ourselves like verbs and Polyamory monogamy, this is the last"},{"startTime":1676.198,"endTime":1685.818,"body":"thing I'll say and then I want to hear from you about just how this lands with you and"},{"startTime":1676.198,"endTime":1685.818,"body":"resonates with your personal process, but Polyamory monogamy those are two words that we"},{"startTime":1685.818,"endTime":1691.298,"body":"have to describe relationship agreements and relationship structures of terms for"},{"startTime":1693.034,"endTime":1695.672,"body":"how many sexual partners you'll have."},{"startTime":1695.672,"endTime":1697.365,"body":"That's essentially it, right?"},{"startTime":1697.6480000000001,"endTime":1698.769,"body":"At a time."},{"startTime":1699.534,"endTime":1700.454,"body":"And..."},{"startTime":1700.454,"endTime":1701.518,"body":"um"},{"startTime":1703.348,"endTime":1711.313,"body":"I do think that there is value in those functions in like saying this is the structure"},{"startTime":1703.348,"endTime":1711.313,"body":"that I'm agreeing to that I'm using in my life right now."},{"startTime":1711.313,"endTime":1715.961,"body":"uh But I think that I feel like even"},{"startTime":1717.726,"endTime":1727.7630000000001,"body":"sex therapists and ex-Mormon sex therapists and people who have have PhDs in the cult"},{"startTime":1717.726,"endTime":1727.7630000000001,"body":"recovery and psychological development."},{"startTime":1727.7630000000001,"endTime":1730.655,"body":"it's, I'm just like, well, I don't have all of that experience."},{"startTime":1730.655,"endTime":1736.66,"body":"I just have the firsthand experience of knowing that it's not as cut and dry as one or the"},{"startTime":1730.655,"endTime":1736.66,"body":"other."},{"startTime":1736.66,"endTime":1740.082,"body":"It's just like, it's more like what questions am I asking?"},{"startTime":1740.082,"endTime":1743.545,"body":"Am I living in a way that's helping me grow as a human being?"},{"startTime":1743.545,"endTime":1744.786,"body":"Am I living in alignment?"},{"startTime":1744.786,"endTime":1745.626,"body":"Am I?"},{"startTime":1745.896,"endTime":1747.777,"body":"integrating all the different parts of myself?"},{"startTime":1747.777,"endTime":1753.03,"body":"Am I working to uh overcome self-deception?"},{"startTime":1753.03,"endTime":1762.835,"body":"Which is like the process that that begins when people start questioning and leaving"},{"startTime":1753.03,"endTime":1762.835,"body":"Mormonism and it's like, you don't stop, yeah, anyways, you're not gonna stop that"},{"startTime":1762.835,"endTime":1763.415,"body":"process."},{"startTime":1763.415,"endTime":1768.166,"body":"So that's, I'll stop my little rant now and I wanna hear from you."},{"startTime":1768.166,"endTime":1769.277,"body":"This is good, Kelly."},{"startTime":1769.277,"endTime":1774.449,"body":"No, and I love how you're talking about like getting away from nouns and changing it to"},{"startTime":1769.277,"endTime":1774.449,"body":"verbs, right?"},{"startTime":1774.449,"endTime":1781.343,"body":"I think just us being so much more fluid than we think in so many different ways."},{"startTime":1781.343,"endTime":1790.348,"body":"And I do feel like a lot of times this uh notion of like monogamy or polyamory gets um"},{"startTime":1791.796,"endTime":1796.616,"body":"Bogdana, I think it's a false dichotomy sometimes."},{"startTime":1798.296,"endTime":1800.376,"body":"And there's just so many parts to touch on here."},{"startTime":1800.376,"endTime":1815.056,"body":"me just, so what I felt in my own kind of exploration that sometimes those past moments"},{"startTime":1800.376,"endTime":1815.056,"body":"that I feel like I missed out on, that those desires, I feel, they kind of come flooding"},{"startTime":1815.056,"endTime":1817.816,"body":"back like a dam breaks sometimes."},{"startTime":1817.816,"endTime":1821.588,"body":"And it's like, all of a sudden I'm having memories of when I was"},{"startTime":1821.588,"endTime":1828.78,"body":"uh repressing or holding back when I was 15 years old, 16 years old, when I was on my"},{"startTime":1821.588,"endTime":1828.78,"body":"mission, after my mission."},{"startTime":1828.78,"endTime":1842.4940000000001,"body":"Like these times when I've like held myself back from fully living life or having"},{"startTime":1828.78,"endTime":1842.4940000000001,"body":"experiences because I was afraid of sinning or I was afraid of, uh I mean, that sexual"},{"startTime":1842.4940000000001,"endTime":1845.835,"body":"energy is such a potent one."},{"startTime":1845.835,"endTime":1848.5520000000001,"body":"I mean, it's the creative, I think it's."},{"startTime":1848.5520000000001,"endTime":1860.121,"body":"Equivalent to the creative life force of everything and it's the it's a thing that causes"},{"startTime":1848.5520000000001,"endTime":1860.121,"body":"birth and destruction I mean it is a very potent energy and so when it's like It comes"},{"startTime":1860.121,"endTime":1861.803,"body":"back pretty strong in a way."},{"startTime":1861.803,"endTime":1868.559,"body":"Um, and so navigating that especially in the last, you know, two years being single an"},{"startTime":1861.803,"endTime":1868.559,"body":"ex-mormon oh"},{"startTime":1868.559,"endTime":1878.606,"body":"feel like I'm all over the place with my thoughts here, but I think that's part of the"},{"startTime":1868.559,"endTime":1878.606,"body":"mess of it all, is been trying to, okay, like I said, there's a balance for me in a dance"},{"startTime":1878.606,"endTime":1890.574,"body":"of, um think there's experiences that I can't have anymore, or like I've passed that"},{"startTime":1878.606,"endTime":1890.574,"body":"window and I need to just grieve and be there with myself and grieve the fact that, a part"},{"startTime":1890.574,"endTime":1897.741,"body":"of me really wanted to have this experience and now it can't, and I need to just."},{"startTime":1897.741,"endTime":1900.0330000000001,"body":"be with the death of that and grieve it."},{"startTime":1900.0330000000001,"endTime":1911.883,"body":"And then there are other times when it's like, you could get into a very like monk-like uh"},{"startTime":1900.0330000000001,"endTime":1911.883,"body":"mentality with that, where I'm just grieving everything and I'm afraid to dip my toe in"},{"startTime":1911.883,"endTime":1919.3300000000002,"body":"and actually live because I'm afraid of, I don't think there's any way to expand without"},{"startTime":1911.883,"endTime":1919.3300000000002,"body":"making some mess."},{"startTime":1919.3300000000002,"endTime":1923.953,"body":"We don't emerge gracefully from a cocoon and just be like, here I am."},{"startTime":1923.953,"endTime":1926.275,"body":"uh Merging from a cocoon is..."},{"startTime":1926.4650000000001,"endTime":1929.077,"body":"Like I've made a lot of caterpillars die in the process."},{"startTime":1929.077,"endTime":1935.0620000000001,"body":"It's a, it's a messy, uh, it's a messy experience when you're emerging from a cocoon."},{"startTime":1935.182,"endTime":1941.9080000000001,"body":"And, um, sometimes that there's no safe way to do it where we're not going to affect other"},{"startTime":1935.182,"endTime":1941.9080000000001,"body":"people around us."},{"startTime":1941.9080000000001,"endTime":1943.159,"body":"We're not going to influence them."},{"startTime":1943.159,"endTime":1945.781,"body":"We're not going to maybe hurt them too."},{"startTime":1945.781,"endTime":1955.919,"body":"And, um, and I think they, going back to this thing of Mormon perfection, just doesn't."},{"startTime":1956.4950000000001,"endTime":1963.986,"body":"It doesn't have to be perfect and it's okay to be in the mess and it's okay to be in the"},{"startTime":1956.4950000000001,"endTime":1963.986,"body":"mess with people and to be navigating it and figuring it out."},{"startTime":1963.986,"endTime":1972.393,"body":"um I mean, that's a general way where I'm doing it, but we can get into more specifics,"},{"startTime":1963.986,"endTime":1972.393,"body":"but I just wanted to, yeah."},{"startTime":1972.393,"endTime":1973.894,"body":"Yeah, I love it."},{"startTime":1973.894,"endTime":1975.695,"body":"It's beautiful."},{"startTime":1975.695,"endTime":1977.817,"body":"that's just, it's so true."},{"startTime":1977.817,"endTime":1986.903,"body":"Like you have to, it's in a, think an essential part of leaving Mormonism is giving up"},{"startTime":1977.817,"endTime":1986.903,"body":"that addiction to perfection."},{"startTime":1986.903,"endTime":1993.347,"body":"That's like, there's Marion Woodman, a student of Carl Rogers wrote that book, Addiction"},{"startTime":1986.903,"endTime":1993.347,"body":"to Perfection."},{"startTime":1993.588,"endTime":1995.849,"body":"And, um"},{"startTime":1995.855,"endTime":2008.195,"body":"Yeah, you have to be willing to embrace your humanity and embracing the cringe and the"},{"startTime":1995.855,"endTime":2008.195,"body":"disgust."},{"startTime":2008.195,"endTime":2013.88,"body":"that goes into what uh me talking about recovering from Mormon codependence."},{"startTime":2013.88,"endTime":2024.868,"body":"An essential part of this whole process for me has been really looking at how far out of"},{"startTime":2013.88,"endTime":2024.868,"body":"Mormonism I have gotten and all the travels I've done all around the world."},{"startTime":2025.421,"endTime":2035.951,"body":"and how there was still such a deep um rejection of uh hatred, anger, and disgust."},{"startTime":2035.951,"endTime":2040.195,"body":"Like those and yeah, those three feelings especially."},{"startTime":2040.195,"endTime":2046.181,"body":"And those feelings just are going to be part of the process of reclaiming your whole self."},{"startTime":2046.181,"endTime":2049.984,"body":"And you're going to act in ways that"},{"startTime":2050.929,"endTime":2063.069,"body":"If you're going to leave Mormonism and following the template of being a good boy or a"},{"startTime":2050.929,"endTime":2063.069,"body":"good girl so that you get external approval, the exact equal and opposite of that is"},{"startTime":2063.069,"endTime":2075.109,"body":"confronting all the ways that you dislike what is out there in the world and the ways that"},{"startTime":2063.069,"endTime":2075.109,"body":"other people dislike you and that you have to disapprove of other people and other things"},{"startTime":2075.109,"endTime":2075.749,"body":"and..."},{"startTime":2075.749,"endTime":2078.2889999999998,"body":"face that other people are going to disapprove of you."},{"startTime":2078.2889999999998,"endTime":2089.341,"body":"It kind of goes back to what you were saying about, um like some people, if Aubrey Marcus"},{"startTime":2078.2889999999998,"endTime":2089.341,"body":"just owned that he was polyamorous, that some people would cancel him, you know, that they"},{"startTime":2089.341,"endTime":2092.864,"body":"were following him for that divine union thing."},{"startTime":2092.864,"endTime":2095.816,"body":"uh It's like that happens, that happens."},{"startTime":2095.816,"endTime":2099.85,"body":"You have to choose yourself and you have to choose to live authentically."},{"startTime":2099.85,"endTime":2102.282,"body":"You're going to be a human."},{"startTime":2102.282,"endTime":2104.303,"body":"You're going to do things messy."},{"startTime":2104.313,"endTime":2106.754,"body":"and you're gonna do things that people don't like."},{"startTime":2106.995,"endTime":2109.6569999999997,"body":"That's like a message that ex-Mormons need to hear."},{"startTime":2109.6569999999997,"endTime":2114.2599999999998,"body":"If you are living, you can't do it in a way that pleases everybody."},{"startTime":2114.6409999999996,"endTime":2120.4049999999997,"body":"You have to start to source your own self-approval as being more important to you than"},{"startTime":2114.6409999999996,"endTime":2120.4049999999997,"body":"anything else."},{"startTime":2120.625,"endTime":2131.5629999999996,"body":"And I think ironically, as ex-Mormons learn to source self-approval above everything else,"},{"startTime":2120.625,"endTime":2131.5629999999996,"body":"they can live and behave in ways that are less and less shitty for other people."},{"startTime":2132.211,"endTime":2137.8379999999997,"body":"But it's like a sloppy messy transition that really gets hairy"},{"startTime":2138.4199999999996,"endTime":2144.339,"body":"I feel like I've been, uh you know, the last few years especially come-"},{"startTime":2146.7729999999997,"endTime":2150.5449999999996,"body":"made conscious, I guess, how much I still seek approval, right?"},{"startTime":2150.5449999999996,"endTime":2156.267,"body":"And so that confession spirit of even the way I just said that, right?"},{"startTime":2156.267,"endTime":2157.665,"body":"Like I'm wanting your approval."},{"startTime":2157.665,"endTime":2159.008,"body":"Do you agree with what I just said?"},{"startTime":2159.008,"endTime":2159.8289999999997,"body":"Kind of don't, you know?"},{"startTime":2159.8289999999997,"endTime":2171.9339999999997,"body":"uh And how, you know, you were talking about something earlier about um being in your own"},{"startTime":2159.8289999999997,"endTime":2171.9339999999997,"body":"energy and then letting things come to you in that way."},{"startTime":2171.9339999999997,"endTime":2173.711,"body":"um So."},{"startTime":2173.711,"endTime":2178.011,"body":"Let me get into a specific about like, for example, like dating post-mormonism, right?"},{"startTime":2178.091,"endTime":2181.7709999999997,"body":"You know, at first, when I was, you know, first downloaded the apps, it was kind of a"},{"startTime":2178.091,"endTime":2181.7709999999997,"body":"little exciting."},{"startTime":2181.7709999999997,"endTime":2187.531,"body":"like, oh, this is something I've always kind of, you know, been curious about ever since"},{"startTime":2181.7709999999997,"endTime":2187.531,"body":"the apps came out, but I had been married for 20 years."},{"startTime":2187.531,"endTime":2192.571,"body":"So was like, okay, you know, this is not, this is not never going to be part of my life."},{"startTime":2192.7909999999997,"endTime":2193.8909999999996,"body":"And so it's kind of fun."},{"startTime":2193.8909999999996,"endTime":2198.4109999999996,"body":"You're window shopping, you're going back, you know, swiping left, right, doing all the"},{"startTime":2193.8909999999996,"endTime":2198.4109999999996,"body":"things."},{"startTime":2199.2709999999997,"endTime":2201.8909999999996,"body":"And then, um, I don't know."},{"startTime":2203.4469999999997,"endTime":2205.0879999999997,"body":"I just realized I don't like them."},{"startTime":2206.33,"endTime":2208.647,"body":"Like, but then this is where I get into."},{"startTime":2208.647,"endTime":2210.4539999999997,"body":"I, so I'm off the apps right now."},{"startTime":2210.4539999999997,"endTime":2214.4379999999996,"body":"Cause I'm just like, look, I'm going to just be in my energy focus on that."},{"startTime":2214.4379999999996,"endTime":2219.173,"body":"And then I like meeting people out when I go to concerts or, know, go around."},{"startTime":2219.173,"endTime":2223.797,"body":"I, the last episode I talked about people I'd met in Portugal, prancing around Portugal."},{"startTime":2224.491,"endTime":2230.7639999999997,"body":"Um, that's kind of my preferred method, but then there's a part of me that's like, or is"},{"startTime":2224.491,"endTime":2230.7639999999997,"body":"this me still wanting to do it perfectly?"},{"startTime":2230.7639999999997,"endTime":2235.336,"body":"You know, am I, am I off the apps because I want to be like, no, I don't do it."},{"startTime":2235.336,"endTime":2236.026,"body":"It do that."},{"startTime":2236.026,"endTime":2236.2459999999996,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2236.2459999999996,"endTime":2237.6169999999997,"body":"There's like a dance there."},{"startTime":2237.6169999999997,"endTime":2240.819,"body":"But then anytime when I'm like, okay, I'll download it again."},{"startTime":2240.819,"endTime":2242.7189999999996,"body":"I get on it for a hot minute."},{"startTime":2242.7189999999996,"endTime":2251.183,"body":"And then I just feel like I'm so much time and energy is focused on this thing that's"},{"startTime":2242.7189999999996,"endTime":2251.183,"body":"taking me away from presence."},{"startTime":2251.643,"endTime":2252.163,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2252.163,"endTime":2258.778,"body":"find that I'm at home and like even like in a week when I'm here with the kids and if I'm"},{"startTime":2252.163,"endTime":2258.778,"body":"on, if I have apps, you know, I'll check the app occasionally."},{"startTime":2258.778,"endTime":2267.4539999999997,"body":"who's like, you know, this, and then I'm like, well, that's taking me away from this"},{"startTime":2258.778,"endTime":2267.4539999999997,"body":"experience right now of being here with my kids where what if I'm fully here and present"},{"startTime":2267.4539999999997,"endTime":2268.7349999999997,"body":"while I'm here?"},{"startTime":2268.7349999999997,"endTime":2275.249,"body":"And then when I'm not, when I'm at the apartment, we kind of go back and forth between a"},{"startTime":2268.7349999999997,"endTime":2275.249,"body":"house and an apartment."},{"startTime":2275.249,"endTime":2280.723,"body":"Uh, when I'm there, then it's like, okay, now I can be more in single mode, but like."},{"startTime":2281.497,"endTime":2287.2329999999997,"body":"There's a lack of presence that feel like, at least for me, the apps pull me from."},{"startTime":2287.439,"endTime":2288.1389999999997,"body":"Yeah, exactly."},{"startTime":2288.1389999999997,"endTime":2292.5519999999997,"body":"I'm like, I don't know, maybe you do have the part of you that's still trying to do it"},{"startTime":2288.1389999999997,"endTime":2292.5519999999997,"body":"perfectly."},{"startTime":2292.5519999999997,"endTime":2294.5429999999997,"body":"And, but you can play with that in other arenas."},{"startTime":2294.5429999999997,"endTime":2305.37,"body":"Like the apps, like it's, it's, it's a huge, they're huge corporations and um they are,"},{"startTime":2294.5429999999997,"endTime":2305.37,"body":"it's like social media."},{"startTime":2305.37,"endTime":2306.821,"body":"They're just more social media."},{"startTime":2306.821,"endTime":2313.0249999999996,"body":"It's just em definitely can be a major waste of time."},{"startTime":2313.0249999999996,"endTime":2313.7149999999997,"body":"just depends."},{"startTime":2313.7149999999997,"endTime":2316.718,"body":"I feel like it's more trying to get me to pay."},{"startTime":2316.7189999999996,"endTime":2318.0299999999997,"body":"It's trying to get money from me, right?"},{"startTime":2318.0299999999997,"endTime":2326.529,"body":"So it's like the algorithms are designed to get me to pay for a premium thing or get me to"},{"startTime":2318.0299999999997,"endTime":2326.529,"body":"pay for like a surge or get me to do this."},{"startTime":2326.529,"endTime":2330.423,"body":"then, you know, it's to keep you paying."},{"startTime":2330.423,"endTime":2331.2039999999997,"body":"It's because of that."},{"startTime":2331.2039999999997,"endTime":2332.395,"body":"It's like, just, I don't know."},{"startTime":2332.395,"endTime":2334.7569999999996,"body":"um I mean, that was one."},{"startTime":2334.7569999999996,"endTime":2335.3419999999996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":2335.3419999999996,"endTime":2344.4089999999997,"body":"no, I was just gonna say, I feel like you told me when you made a connection with somebody"},{"startTime":2335.3419999999996,"endTime":2344.4089999999997,"body":"when you were traveling in Portugal, you just referencing, right?"},{"startTime":2344.4089999999997,"endTime":2347.29,"body":"And you met that person in person, not on an app."},{"startTime":2347.3509999999997,"endTime":2354.156,"body":"And um you were saying that you felt so like yourself or true to yourself, something like"},{"startTime":2347.3509999999997,"endTime":2354.156,"body":"that."},{"startTime":2354.156,"endTime":2358.8799999999997,"body":"um Is there something alive there about that?"},{"startTime":2358.8799999999997,"endTime":2360.7999999999997,"body":"Like it feels more true to you."},{"startTime":2361.5609999999997,"endTime":2371.6369999999997,"body":"So this is interesting because one of the songs that we were recording this last weekend"},{"startTime":2361.5609999999997,"endTime":2371.6369999999997,"body":"is a song called Austin Nights, which is a song that I wrote when, beginning of my"},{"startTime":2371.6369999999997,"endTime":2379.841,"body":"separation and was going through the grief and had this experience of being in Austin,"},{"startTime":2371.6369999999997,"endTime":2379.841,"body":"visiting a friend."},{"startTime":2379.922,"endTime":2389.857,"body":"And, you know, it my first trip kind of away as single, you know, I was single for a few"},{"startTime":2379.922,"endTime":2389.857,"body":"months, horny as fuck, you know, kind of just like."},{"startTime":2390.2709999999997,"endTime":2391.191,"body":"Going to a new city."},{"startTime":2391.191,"endTime":2400.4339999999997,"body":"So of course, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna download tinder and you know, let's see if I can"},{"startTime":2391.191,"endTime":2400.4339999999997,"body":"make a connection here in Austin, but uh you know, I'm I was finding quickly that like uh"},{"startTime":2400.4339999999997,"endTime":2406.716,"body":"the dating game or like the like even the Pickup game picking people up."},{"startTime":2407.4159999999997,"endTime":2416.238,"body":"I don't know how to do that or I've been out of the game for 20 years I feel like I've"},{"startTime":2407.4159999999997,"endTime":2416.238,"body":"gotten so much better at it in the last two years by by by just being myself right by like"},{"startTime":2416.4979999999996,"endTime":2418.759,"body":"by not I don't if I like I see"},{"startTime":2418.8399999999997,"endTime":2428.5249999999996,"body":"a person that I'm interested in, I'll go and instead of like trying to pick them up, it's"},{"startTime":2418.8399999999997,"endTime":2428.5249999999996,"body":"just like, hey, I'm Mike, know, just like talk to them like a normal person."},{"startTime":2428.5249999999996,"endTime":2431.6899999999996,"body":"I, that's where, can I just interject something quickly?"},{"startTime":2431.725,"endTime":2435.877,"body":"I don't want to stop because I feel like you're getting to the essence of something more,"},{"startTime":2431.725,"endTime":2435.877,"body":"but."},{"startTime":2437.8689999999997,"endTime":2446.2909999999997,"body":"We all absorbed so much from older generations about how to do relationships and how to"},{"startTime":2437.8689999999997,"endTime":2446.2909999999997,"body":"date and like picking up."},{"startTime":2446.2909999999997,"endTime":2447.932,"body":"It's just, it's insane."},{"startTime":2447.932,"endTime":2454.334,"body":"And then once we've rejected Mormonism, we don't realize like how much more there is to"},{"startTime":2447.932,"endTime":2454.334,"body":"continue deconstructing and rejecting."},{"startTime":2454.334,"endTime":2467.2349999999997,"body":"And it's like, Oh, wait a minute, the whole point, the whole point of why I'm doing this"},{"startTime":2454.334,"endTime":2467.2349999999997,"body":"isn't to go stick myself into some archaic 40 year old idea of how to interact with."},{"startTime":2467.2349999999997,"endTime":2479.578,"body":"somebody I'm sexually attracted to, the whole entire point is to source my own way of"},{"startTime":2467.2349999999997,"endTime":2479.578,"body":"living and being and interacting with my own sexuality and other people who may be who I'm"},{"startTime":2479.578,"endTime":2480.149,"body":"attracted to."},{"startTime":2480.149,"endTime":2483.48,"body":"like, how do I just do that as a human being and do that authentically?"},{"startTime":2483.48,"endTime":2493.3419999999996,"body":"And it seems like that's what you're saying is like, concepts of what I should do versus"},{"startTime":2483.48,"endTime":2493.3419999999996,"body":"I'm actually, got this cut me."},{"startTime":2493.3419999999996,"endTime":2496.0029999999997,"body":"No, like the reason those concepts exist, like"},{"startTime":2496.165,"endTime":2499.627,"body":"picking people up and all the old tropes of going to the bar."},{"startTime":2499.627,"endTime":2508.292,"body":"And it's because those are from a generation that didn't have the internet, that did not"},{"startTime":2499.627,"endTime":2508.292,"body":"have therapy, that did not have know how to access themselves."},{"startTime":2508.292,"endTime":2516.939,"body":"So like, I don't need to rely on those stereotypes of what to do because I have all those"},{"startTime":2508.292,"endTime":2516.939,"body":"things, right?"},{"startTime":2516.939,"endTime":2517.7189999999996,"body":"thank you."},{"startTime":2517.7189999999996,"endTime":2525.879,"body":"This is so good for me, Kelly, because I shame myself a lot for not dating a lot, right?"},{"startTime":2525.879,"endTime":2531.7189999999996,"body":"But what I've found recently is I've always been a good, I read people really well."},{"startTime":2531.7189999999996,"endTime":2533.5389999999998,"body":"That's just a strength I have."},{"startTime":2533.899,"endTime":2542.1589999999997,"body":"And owning my strength to like, even before I met my wife when I was in college."},{"startTime":2542.1589999999997,"endTime":2546.1589999999997,"body":"I didn't go on a lot of dates, you know, but that I think that's an old antiquated notion."},{"startTime":2546.1589999999997,"endTime":2551.359,"body":"But like, I was meeting women all the time and I was interacting with women all the time."},{"startTime":2551.359,"endTime":2553.6389999999997,"body":"And I was already getting a read."},{"startTime":2553.6389999999997,"endTime":2560.0789999999997,"body":"Like I didn't have to go and date the whole campus of Utah state to quote unquote, date"},{"startTime":2553.6389999999997,"endTime":2560.0789999999997,"body":"the whole campus."},{"startTime":2560.0789999999997,"endTime":2570.799,"body":"I was always checking vibes and this and very rarely, I'm sure it's happened, but very"},{"startTime":2560.0789999999997,"endTime":2570.799,"body":"rarely have I, I'm trying to think of any of the like the quote unquote dates I've been on"},{"startTime":2570.799,"endTime":2572.0589999999997,"body":"in the last two years."},{"startTime":2572.153,"endTime":2574.444,"body":"They all went almost as I was expecting."},{"startTime":2574.444,"endTime":2576.6639999999998,"body":"was surprised by very few of them."},{"startTime":2576.6639999999998,"endTime":2588.307,"body":"um And this is more me saying to trust my own intuitive and my own barom, like my own"},{"startTime":2576.6639999999998,"endTime":2588.307,"body":"attraction."},{"startTime":2588.307,"endTime":2592.209,"body":"Like if my body's feeling attraction, it's because of a certain thing, right?"},{"startTime":2592.209,"endTime":2596.66,"body":"If it's not feeling attraction, I shouldn't be like, wait, why am I not feeling that in"},{"startTime":2592.209,"endTime":2596.66,"body":"this?"},{"startTime":2596.66,"endTime":2598.3999999999996,"body":"And maybe I can get it to feel attraction."},{"startTime":2598.3999999999996,"endTime":2599.923,"body":"No, there's a reason why."},{"startTime":2599.923,"endTime":2601.475,"body":"And to almost follow"},{"startTime":2601.475,"endTime":2605.806,"body":"Follow your bliss, follow the attraction, follow that thread of curiosity."},{"startTime":2605.806,"endTime":2618.6499999999996,"body":"And if there's any dating advice that I've learned in last two years that hopefully maybe"},{"startTime":2605.806,"endTime":2618.6499999999996,"body":"I can pass on is that if you're meeting someone out in the wild, take away, strip away any"},{"startTime":2618.6499999999996,"endTime":2625.912,"body":"notion of goal and just be like, oh, I just want to go, I'm curious about this person."},{"startTime":2625.912,"endTime":2629.663,"body":"This person maybe is attractive to me or there's something about the energy that I want"},{"startTime":2625.912,"endTime":2629.663,"body":"to."},{"startTime":2631.738,"endTime":2634.2189999999996,"body":"to learn better, know better."},{"startTime":2634.2189999999996,"endTime":2641.479,"body":"And so just go up and just like you would if it was someone you weren't attracted to, you"},{"startTime":2634.2189999999996,"endTime":2641.479,"body":"would just get curious."},{"startTime":2641.479,"endTime":2646.819,"body":"And that curiosity creates this, oh yeah, and then there's no goal."},{"startTime":2646.819,"endTime":2654.259,"body":"And then usually when there's no goal and it's just curious, then all of a sudden it"},{"startTime":2646.819,"endTime":2654.259,"body":"allows the room for something to kind of bubble there."},{"startTime":2654.5989999999997,"endTime":2657.241,"body":"And I don't know if bubble's the right word, but yeah."},{"startTime":2657.241,"endTime":2661.948,"body":"It allows for something to happen if there is going to be some sort of sexual connection."},{"startTime":2661.948,"endTime":2662.828,"body":"that?"},{"startTime":2664.2309999999998,"endTime":2674.3039999999996,"body":"Yeah, and I also think like being aware too of what your goals are and your conscious and"},{"startTime":2664.2309999999998,"endTime":2674.3039999999996,"body":"unconscious goals, which uh like."},{"startTime":2675.2529999999997,"endTime":2684.24,"body":"For a long time I was thinking after I got divorced that I needed to date because it's"},{"startTime":2675.2529999999997,"endTime":2684.24,"body":"just what you're supposed to do like it was just the conditioning was so deep inside of me"},{"startTime":2684.46,"endTime":2695.948,"body":"and It was only in the last like year that I have realized uh That's like I just wanted"},{"startTime":2684.46,"endTime":2695.948,"body":"very briefly deconstruct dating propaganda because it's like"},{"startTime":2696.303,"endTime":2709.569,"body":"Dating is like data gathering about another person to like court them to like have this"},{"startTime":2696.303,"endTime":2709.569,"body":"end goal of like this pretty patriarchal nuclear family thing like get married and like we"},{"startTime":2709.569,"endTime":2722.825,"body":"could talk I could talk a lot about how marriage really benefits men more than anything"},{"startTime":2709.569,"endTime":2722.825,"body":"and so it's like us leaving ex-mormon like leaving Mormonism and then dating like every"},{"startTime":2722.825,"endTime":2726.259,"body":"you know, maybe some individuals have the goal of finding another"},{"startTime":2726.259,"endTime":2740.508,"body":"spouse, but a lot of ex-mormons are not looking for that at all and actually are like, I'm"},{"startTime":2726.259,"endTime":2740.508,"body":"just trying to explore my sexuality and being able to just be honest with yourself about"},{"startTime":2740.508,"endTime":2748.325,"body":"that and own it and being forward with the people that you're connecting with, that is"},{"startTime":2740.508,"endTime":2748.325,"body":"going to go a very long way in..."},{"startTime":2748.325,"endTime":2751.875,"body":"things being less messy or less shitty for everyone, right?"},{"startTime":2751.875,"endTime":2759.368,"body":"It's just being able to be honest about what you're really looking for, especially"},{"startTime":2751.875,"endTime":2759.368,"body":"ex-Mormons who a lot of times are not looking for another eternal companion."},{"startTime":2759.368,"endTime":2769.158,"body":"And I was going to say, for the ex-Mormons who are, like when you are looking for a"},{"startTime":2759.368,"endTime":2769.158,"body":"long-term committed partner, like being able to be like, why?"},{"startTime":2769.158,"endTime":2770.7309999999998,"body":"Why am I looking for a partner?"},{"startTime":2770.7309999999998,"endTime":2772.962,"body":"Like, am I looking for somebody to take care of me?"},{"startTime":2772.962,"endTime":2777.053,"body":"Am I looking for somebody to be codependent with, you know?"},{"startTime":2777.053,"endTime":2777.8329999999996,"body":"So."},{"startTime":2778.317,"endTime":2785.044,"body":"I'm very encouraging a shadow work of looking at my, your unconscious reasons for why"},{"startTime":2778.317,"endTime":2785.044,"body":"you're doing what you're doing."},{"startTime":2786.0069999999996,"endTime":2793.689,"body":"It's really interesting because I find myself, it's one of the things I've found really"},{"startTime":2786.0069999999996,"endTime":2793.689,"body":"kind of annoying about the dates or the dating scene, especially here in Los Angeles."},{"startTime":2793.689,"endTime":2803.0519999999997,"body":"um You know, because I'm in a state of life where it's like, no, I was uh monogamous for"},{"startTime":2793.689,"endTime":2803.0519999999997,"body":"20 years with one person."},{"startTime":2803.0519999999997,"endTime":2805.2419999999997,"body":"Now I'm in the stage like I want to explore myself."},{"startTime":2805.2419999999997,"endTime":2813.745,"body":"And a lot of people uh like my same age in Los Angeles are now like, oh, I'm here to find"},{"startTime":2805.2419999999997,"endTime":2813.745,"body":"my ride or die, which I was kind of funny."},{"startTime":2813.745,"endTime":2814.115,"body":"Okay."},{"startTime":2814.115,"endTime":2815.0229999999997,"body":"So now."},{"startTime":2815.0229999999997,"endTime":2818.863,"body":"You're in your mid-40s and now you want to find the ride or die."},{"startTime":2818.863,"endTime":2822.5429999999997,"body":"I think we get worried that we're going to be alone when we're..."},{"startTime":2822.5429999999997,"endTime":2827.903,"body":"I mean, there's a lot of reasons, and so I don't want to shame someone's reasons for"},{"startTime":2822.5429999999997,"endTime":2827.903,"body":"wanting like a..."},{"startTime":2827.903,"endTime":2835.343,"body":"They might just want that experience of being chosen and that pair bonding closeness and"},{"startTime":2827.903,"endTime":2835.343,"body":"intimacy, which is also beautiful."},{"startTime":2835.343,"endTime":2840.703,"body":"But I think there's also a fear we have as humans of being 80 and alone."},{"startTime":2841.183,"endTime":2844.763,"body":"But I always think, you know, if you look at those retirement homes,"},{"startTime":2845.551,"endTime":2850.2149999999997,"body":"Usually the single ones are the ones who are less alone than the ones who are."},{"startTime":2850.2149999999997,"endTime":2850.7749999999996,"body":"Right."},{"startTime":2850.7749999999996,"endTime":2855.278,"body":"Um, but, to kind of, I want to go back to this Austin thing."},{"startTime":2855.278,"endTime":2855.8889999999997,"body":"can weave in it."},{"startTime":2855.8889999999997,"endTime":2857.2999999999997,"body":"Cause I saw I was in Austin."},{"startTime":2857.2999999999997,"endTime":2863.5649999999996,"body":"Oh, I, by the way, this, this podcast is all about detours inside."},{"startTime":2863.5649999999996,"endTime":2868.6679999999997,"body":"But I do want to, sometimes I forget to return to the point, but, but this ties into what"},{"startTime":2863.5649999999996,"endTime":2868.6679999999997,"body":"we were talking about at the very beginning."},{"startTime":2868.6679999999997,"endTime":2870.8089999999997,"body":"So that's why I want to touch back on it."},{"startTime":2871.7909999999997,"endTime":2872.631,"body":"and it."},{"startTime":2872.631,"endTime":2877.685,"body":"Anyways, I was having a great time in Austin with my friends, but I wasn't like connecting"},{"startTime":2872.631,"endTime":2877.685,"body":"with too many."},{"startTime":2877.685,"endTime":2879.473,"body":"I mean, I would talk to some, you know what?"},{"startTime":2879.473,"endTime":2882.1969999999997,"body":"There was no romantic connections happening."},{"startTime":2882.3179999999998,"endTime":2889.0429999999997,"body":"And the very last night I was at uh a midnight concert for the midnight, the band."},{"startTime":2889.0429999999997,"endTime":2890.624,"body":"Um, and it's my favorite band."},{"startTime":2890.624,"endTime":2897.468,"body":"um, I just recently seen them in LA and, know, in LA, it was a very mixed crowd."},{"startTime":2897.629,"endTime":2901.2309999999998,"body":"And then when I was in Austin, it was just like a sea full of dudes."},{"startTime":2901.2309999999998,"endTime":2904.0919999999996,"body":"was like, okay, well, it's not happening for me tonight."},{"startTime":2904.432,"endTime":2906.953,"body":"And so I just like dropped into my own."},{"startTime":2906.953,"endTime":2911.8959999999997,"body":"I was like, I'm just going to be the biggest fan of the midnight at this concert."},{"startTime":2911.8959999999997,"endTime":2914.6769999999997,"body":"And so I'm just like dancing."},{"startTime":2914.6769999999997,"endTime":2918.118,"body":"I have a line in the song that says I'm dancing wild like it's only me."},{"startTime":2918.118,"endTime":2919.549,"body":"Cause I was just dancing wild."},{"startTime":2919.549,"endTime":2921.319,"body":"was singing every lyric."},{"startTime":2921.6,"endTime":2929.495,"body":"And then as I'm doing that, like I sense like this uh woman come up from, you know,"},{"startTime":2929.495,"endTime":2943.019,"body":"behind me like to my side and I turn and it's this bombshell, beautiful woman who's just"},{"startTime":2929.495,"endTime":2943.019,"body":"as geeked out hardcore midnight fan as I am."},{"startTime":2943.019,"endTime":2949.0299999999997,"body":"So for the next, like the last 10 songs, we were singing every line, we were dancing"},{"startTime":2943.019,"endTime":2949.0299999999997,"body":"together, we were just like vibing together."},{"startTime":2949.0299999999997,"endTime":2958.7729999999997,"body":"And, uh, you know, I chatted with her briefly afterwards, her name was happy and she, I've"},{"startTime":2949.0299999999997,"endTime":2958.7729999999997,"body":"already told the story in the podcast, but I think it bears repeating here, but like,"},{"startTime":2959.1189999999997,"endTime":2972.249,"body":"And then she went off into the night and I will never see her again, but I'll see her, the"},{"startTime":2959.1189999999997,"endTime":2972.249,"body":"capital H, that onyma that came in when I was just in my own energy, not giving a fuck,"},{"startTime":2972.249,"endTime":2976.5919999999996,"body":"not trying to force anything, not trying to make something happen."},{"startTime":2976.5919999999996,"endTime":2980.0539999999996,"body":"I was just dancing wild like it's only me."},{"startTime":2980.055,"endTime":2985.955,"body":"And I feel like that was the same energy that I brought when I'm talking about Portugal"},{"startTime":2980.055,"endTime":2985.955,"body":"that night when I'm just like, I'm just."},{"startTime":2985.955,"endTime":2989.997,"body":"gonna be here, I'm gonna be me, I'm gonna be magnetic and just be me."},{"startTime":2990.098,"endTime":2993.2799999999997,"body":"Even saying I'm gonna be magnetic is that like puts a little pressure on it."},{"startTime":2993.2799999999997,"endTime":3002.526,"body":"I don't mean that, just mean just doing whatever the fuck I wanna do and saying what I"},{"startTime":2993.2799999999997,"endTime":3002.526,"body":"wanna do, there's an energy that comes with that and a magnetism."},{"startTime":3002.587,"endTime":3005.779,"body":"And realizing that like, I don't have to chase so much."},{"startTime":3005.779,"endTime":3008.24,"body":"I don't have to constantly scroll through apps."},{"startTime":3008.24,"endTime":3012.854,"body":"I don't have to be searching for something exterior to complete me."},{"startTime":3012.854,"endTime":3015.355,"body":"If I can find that completeness within,"},{"startTime":3015.879,"endTime":3019.3529999999996,"body":"I don't want to get too law of attraction-y here, but it just kind of works."},{"startTime":3019.3529999999996,"endTime":3020.234,"body":"It kind of happens."},{"startTime":3020.234,"endTime":3026.611,"body":"And maybe it doesn't happen exactly that night, um but sometimes it kind of does."},{"startTime":3029.2949999999996,"endTime":3030.267,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3030.591,"endTime":3031.4919999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3033.817,"endTime":3035.3129999999996,"body":"So yeah, I don't know."},{"startTime":3035.3129999999996,"endTime":3036.5879999999997,"body":"I guess I kind of stop the conversation."},{"startTime":3036.5879999999997,"endTime":3037.2189999999996,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3037.2189999999996,"endTime":3038.1699999999996,"body":"you told the rest of the story."},{"startTime":3038.1699999999996,"endTime":3038.611,"body":"I love it."},{"startTime":3038.611,"endTime":3040.375,"body":"That's just, that's exactly it."},{"startTime":3040.375,"endTime":3041.808,"body":"That's the whole thing, right?"},{"startTime":3041.808,"endTime":3042.8579999999997,"body":"It's like."},{"startTime":3044.493,"endTime":3045.814,"body":"Enjoying yourself."},{"startTime":3045.814,"endTime":3053.3269999999998,"body":"That's honestly what I think the heart of leaving Mormonism is is learning to enjoy So"},{"startTime":3045.814,"endTime":3053.3269999999998,"body":"it's like a play on words there."},{"startTime":3053.3269999999998,"endTime":3066.783,"body":"It's like I'm just gonna enjoy myself But it's also like enjoying myself enjoying who I am"},{"startTime":3053.3269999999998,"endTime":3066.783,"body":"enjoying my own company I don't have to because I think a lot of Mormons um Don't realize"},{"startTime":3066.783,"endTime":3074.519,"body":"how much the layers of self-deception are happening where they actually root like they"},{"startTime":3066.783,"endTime":3074.519,"body":"know like so many people will say I knew that I didn't believe even"},{"startTime":3074.519,"endTime":3077.959,"body":"though I was a gospel doctrine scholar, I knew that it was bullshit."},{"startTime":3077.959,"endTime":3081.939,"body":"I just couldn't admit that I knew that I knew that it was bullshit, right?"},{"startTime":3081.939,"endTime":3083.839,"body":"Just the layers of self-deception."},{"startTime":3083.919,"endTime":3086.095,"body":"The only reason you would ever do that."},{"startTime":3086.095,"endTime":3095.4139999999998,"body":"to yourself, well maybe there's a lot of reasons, there's social reasons and all of that,"},{"startTime":3086.095,"endTime":3095.4139999999998,"body":"but I really think that it all boils down to self acceptance or self approval and self"},{"startTime":3095.4139999999998,"endTime":3096.374,"body":"rejection or not."},{"startTime":3096.374,"endTime":3112.431,"body":"It's like, if I can just say, I value my interpretation, my opinion, my experience, and if"},{"startTime":3096.374,"endTime":3112.431,"body":"I really value this person is sitting in this uh gospel doctrine lesson and..."},{"startTime":3112.431,"endTime":3117.0049999999997,"body":"The truth is that at the core of this person, they're saying, this does not make sense."},{"startTime":3117.0049999999997,"endTime":3118.406,"body":"I am not lit up by this."},{"startTime":3118.406,"endTime":3120.027,"body":"I'm bored by this."},{"startTime":3120.027,"endTime":3121.468,"body":"They could just value."},{"startTime":3121.468,"endTime":3122.489,"body":"That's what's true."},{"startTime":3122.489,"endTime":3125.2309999999998,"body":"That's what this person really thinks and feels and believes."},{"startTime":3125.392,"endTime":3129.5049999999997,"body":"It's like, you don't need to do all that bullshit pretending."},{"startTime":3129.5049999999997,"endTime":3130.656,"body":"You can, you're free."},{"startTime":3130.656,"endTime":3131.607,"body":"You're free to go."},{"startTime":3131.607,"endTime":3142.205,"body":"So that's like, yeah, enjoying yourself and living for yourself is like the essence of"},{"startTime":3131.607,"endTime":3142.205,"body":"being free from Mormonism and Mormon codependence."},{"startTime":3142.4469999999997,"endTime":3143.3669999999997,"body":"I love that."},{"startTime":3143.3669999999997,"endTime":3155.527,"body":"look, I, so for me too, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot for me in the,"},{"startTime":3143.3669999999997,"endTime":3155.527,"body":"like the dating world now is this thing of like monogamy polyamory, like we're talking"},{"startTime":3155.527,"endTime":3156.3869999999997,"body":"about."},{"startTime":3156.607,"endTime":3163.9069999999997,"body":"And I don't just, I hate almost getting into the conversations because I just don't like"},{"startTime":3156.607,"endTime":3163.9069999999997,"body":"the labels of it."},{"startTime":3163.9069999999997,"endTime":3168.9269999999997,"body":"Because if you just break down the word polyamorous, multiple loves in a way."},{"startTime":3169.4849999999997,"endTime":3171.386,"body":"I'm always going to love multiple people."},{"startTime":3171.386,"endTime":3173.5159999999996,"body":"Now, I be sexually exclusive?"},{"startTime":3173.5159999999996,"endTime":3176.3669999999997,"body":"Yeah, I could if it was with the right person."},{"startTime":3176.3669999999997,"endTime":3192.142,"body":"But then there's also like this thing of like, um would have, like what I'm finding for"},{"startTime":3176.3669999999997,"endTime":3192.142,"body":"myself that I've always, I guess, wanted but never had the chance to have uh in a marriage"},{"startTime":3192.142,"endTime":3197.663,"body":"was oh friends, deep friendships with people, with women."},{"startTime":3197.9469999999997,"endTime":3198.239,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3198.239,"endTime":3205.961,"body":"I have like so many deep friendships and not just intimate friendships where we talk about"},{"startTime":3198.239,"endTime":3205.961,"body":"very vulnerable things."},{"startTime":3206.681,"endTime":3212.0429999999997,"body":"And I can't imagine giving that up."},{"startTime":3212.163,"endTime":3217.5739999999996,"body":"If that, know, for me, so it's kind of like, I don't know."},{"startTime":3217.5739999999996,"endTime":3220.185,"body":"So that's just something I'm, but I guess I don't need to define it yet."},{"startTime":3220.185,"endTime":3220.9849999999997,"body":"I mean, it was kind of funny."},{"startTime":3220.9849999999997,"endTime":3224.9359999999997,"body":"last episode, Doug and I talked about like fluidity and sexuality and not needing to"},{"startTime":3220.9849999999997,"endTime":3224.9359999999997,"body":"define it."},{"startTime":3224.9359999999997,"endTime":3227.4469999999997,"body":"And now here I'm also like this."},{"startTime":3227.4469999999997,"endTime":3237.6499999999996,"body":"spectrum between monogamy and polyamory is like I don't need to define it within myself"},{"startTime":3227.4469999999997,"endTime":3237.6499999999996,"body":"either because I'm still exploring what my own edges and boundaries are and stuff with it"},{"startTime":3237.6499999999996,"endTime":3239.9429999999998,"body":"and it's uh don't know"},{"startTime":3240.089,"endTime":3244.663,"body":"Yeah, yeah, I want to respond to that, um because..."},{"startTime":3245.605,"endTime":3250.977,"body":"There's like two thoughts in there and I wanted to just go slow with like, yeah, you not"},{"startTime":3245.605,"endTime":3250.977,"body":"wanting to define it."},{"startTime":3250.977,"endTime":3263.553,"body":"And that's like, also, you know, we say like polyamory or monogamy are these, they're"},{"startTime":3250.977,"endTime":3263.553,"body":"nouns and they do technically this could get, we could have, I could, there's so much more"},{"startTime":3263.553,"endTime":3265.1929999999998,"body":"that I could say right here."},{"startTime":3265.1929999999998,"endTime":3274.1369999999997,"body":"Just, I will try to keep it brief though about um morals, about this concept of morals,"},{"startTime":3265.1929999999998,"endTime":3274.1369999999997,"body":"which is like, um that you could ever say."},{"startTime":3274.1369999999997,"endTime":3277.9979999999996,"body":"what somebody should do in a particular situation."},{"startTime":3277.9979999999996,"endTime":3284.7,"body":"Like they should have done this one specific exact thing, and that's what would be morally"},{"startTime":3277.9979999999996,"endTime":3284.7,"body":"right or wrong."},{"startTime":3285.0,"endTime":3295.154,"body":"And I think there's major arrogance in thinking I could ever say exactly what another"},{"startTime":3285.0,"endTime":3295.154,"body":"person should or shouldn't have done exactly."},{"startTime":3295.154,"endTime":3296.654,"body":"That's just not how it goes."},{"startTime":3296.654,"endTime":3298.365,"body":"Like, let's the..."},{"startTime":3298.365,"endTime":3299.497,"body":"um"},{"startTime":3299.497,"endTime":3302.87,"body":"the conditioned mind in Mormonism thinks that way."},{"startTime":3302.87,"endTime":3312.2169999999996,"body":"You think that you could just apply these rules to yourself and oppress yourself enough to"},{"startTime":3302.87,"endTime":3312.2169999999996,"body":"get the outcome of eternal salvation."},{"startTime":3312.2169999999996,"endTime":3319.915,"body":"And by those of us who have deconstructed Mormonism know that that is an illusion, that"},{"startTime":3312.2169999999996,"endTime":3319.915,"body":"that's a mirage, like it never is fulfilled."},{"startTime":3319.915,"endTime":3322.7169999999996,"body":"It's a tool for being controlled."},{"startTime":3323.158,"endTime":3327.1609999999996,"body":"And so this is where..."},{"startTime":3327.185,"endTime":3329.8849999999998,"body":"this concept, I'm going to tie this all together."},{"startTime":3331.2039999999997,"endTime":3332.243,"body":"Okay, yeah."},{"startTime":3332.243,"endTime":3333.9069999999997,"body":"the tool for being controlled?"},{"startTime":3334.489,"endTime":3343.1899999999996,"body":"Like that if you could say, if you could keep the commandments and then I'm going to be"},{"startTime":3334.489,"endTime":3343.1899999999996,"body":"worthy in the eyes of God."},{"startTime":3343.5319999999997,"endTime":3351.9739999999997,"body":"Or I could follow all these rules and then I get a temple recommend and then I get to go"},{"startTime":3343.5319999999997,"endTime":3351.9739999999997,"body":"into the temple and then I get to keep the covenants and then I get to get to have the"},{"startTime":3351.9739999999997,"endTime":3353.8149999999996,"body":"highest degree of the celestial kingdom."},{"startTime":3353.915,"endTime":3358.076,"body":"What amazing promises that the church makes that they do not have to deliver on."},{"startTime":3358.076,"endTime":3360.017,"body":"Like it's a mirage."},{"startTime":3360.017,"endTime":3361.337,"body":"It's never, it's."},{"startTime":3361.337,"endTime":3373.721,"body":"So to think that I just need to do this one specific thing in this one specific way, or"},{"startTime":3361.337,"endTime":3373.721,"body":"this other person should do this one specific thing in this one specific way, then we'll"},{"startTime":3373.721,"endTime":3375.6009999999997,"body":"all have this eternal salvation."},{"startTime":3375.6009999999997,"endTime":3378.422,"body":"Then we'll all enjoy redemption together."},{"startTime":3378.582,"endTime":3383.743,"body":"And I am saying, I'm calling the bullshitness on that way of thinking."},{"startTime":3383.884,"endTime":3388.4249999999997,"body":"It's like the all or none, black or white thinking that you have inside of Mormonism."},{"startTime":3388.5249999999996,"endTime":3389.2309999999998,"body":"And..."},{"startTime":3389.2309999999998,"endTime":3397.504,"body":"That's where you have to be able to see the reality of life itself, which is that things"},{"startTime":3389.2309999999998,"endTime":3397.504,"body":"just happen and then more things happen."},{"startTime":3397.504,"endTime":3409.3489999999997,"body":"And it's like, if you can, that's where I'm bringing back in um what for me has been"},{"startTime":3397.504,"endTime":3409.3489999999997,"body":"essential in deconstructing Mormon co-dependence, uh approving of shadow emotions."},{"startTime":3409.3489999999997,"endTime":3413.951,"body":"Like I said, anger, hatred, and disgust are the three biggest ones for me right now."},{"startTime":3413.951,"endTime":3418.767,"body":"If you can let yourself have those emotions and let other people have those."},{"startTime":3418.767,"endTime":3427.845,"body":"let people be disgusted with you, let people hate you, then there's freedom because you"},{"startTime":3418.767,"endTime":3427.845,"body":"get to be living in alignment with life."},{"startTime":3427.845,"endTime":3431.0069999999996,"body":"You don't have to try to get yourself to keep the commandments."},{"startTime":3431.0069999999996,"endTime":3438.3129999999996,"body":"You don't have to try to get yourself to m be perfectly one thing or the other."},{"startTime":3438.3729999999996,"endTime":3447.673,"body":"And that's where I think the false dichotomy of monogamy or polyamory and that it's really"},{"startTime":3438.3729999999996,"endTime":3447.673,"body":"a fallacy to think that you could even perfectly say,"},{"startTime":3447.673,"endTime":3453.538,"body":"you know, like technically you are either having one partner or multiple partners at a"},{"startTime":3447.673,"endTime":3453.538,"body":"time."},{"startTime":3453.538,"endTime":3456.5,"body":"But even that just gets like really dicey."},{"startTime":3456.5,"endTime":3466.058,"body":"Like if we really start to just pull apart all the threads, it comes back to like what you"},{"startTime":3456.5,"endTime":3466.058,"body":"were just saying about how you, for you, which surprised me, we were talking about this on"},{"startTime":3466.058,"endTime":3477.187,"body":"Marco Polo the first time you mentioned that, which was like, you could never go back to"},{"startTime":3466.058,"endTime":3477.187,"body":"traditional monogamy because you value emotionally connective friendships with women."},{"startTime":3477.229,"endTime":3479.8709999999996,"body":"intimate emotionally connected friendships with women."},{"startTime":3479.8709999999996,"endTime":3486.124,"body":"And it took me by surprise because I like forgot that that's even a concept in traditional"},{"startTime":3479.8709999999996,"endTime":3486.124,"body":"monogamy."},{"startTime":3486.124,"endTime":3496.841,"body":"I'm like, well you could, and so many people would argue and say, you can definitely just"},{"startTime":3486.124,"endTime":3496.841,"body":"have one sexual partner and be emotionally intimate with all these other women."},{"startTime":3497.181,"endTime":3503.6949999999997,"body":"And, but then you, that begs the question of like, at what point does,"},{"startTime":3504.111,"endTime":3508.7419999999997,"body":"that oh intimacy blend into sexual intimacy."},{"startTime":3508.7419999999997,"endTime":3509.948,"body":"When does that happen?"},{"startTime":3509.948,"endTime":3516.7129999999997,"body":"because part of that thing is, maybe we're not having sex, but we're talking about it."},{"startTime":3517.634,"endTime":3522.7279999999996,"body":"it's not without emotion, there's a charge there sometimes."},{"startTime":3522.7279999999996,"endTime":3527.461,"body":"And sometimes there's a uh flirty vibe with the friends that I have."},{"startTime":3528.143,"endTime":3532.205,"body":"it blends into, they're not just platonic."},{"startTime":3533.4469999999997,"endTime":3538.723,"body":"The friendship that I have with women, each one's its own unique."},{"startTime":3538.723,"endTime":3540.024,"body":"container in a way, right?"},{"startTime":3540.024,"endTime":3546.2509999999997,"body":"And so it's like, and each one, like there's, can expand, it's its own thing."},{"startTime":3546.2509999999997,"endTime":3550.3149999999996,"body":"It's a relationship in a way, even though it's not defined as a relationship."},{"startTime":3550.3149999999996,"endTime":3552.778,"body":"Like I have relationships with my guy friends."},{"startTime":3552.778,"endTime":3554.319,"body":"I have relationships with my girlfriends."},{"startTime":3554.319,"endTime":3556.0009999999997,"body":"We have a relationship."},{"startTime":3556.0009999999997,"endTime":3558.2329999999997,"body":"We're just not in a relationship."},{"startTime":3558.2329999999997,"endTime":3562.027,"body":"And so, but then what does it mean to be, then you put these like,"},{"startTime":3562.0389999999998,"endTime":3563.2189999999996,"body":"rules and boundaries on it."},{"startTime":3563.2189999999996,"endTime":3567.7309999999998,"body":"And I get like, there needs to be a structure for whatever relationship you're in."},{"startTime":3567.7309999999998,"endTime":3570.502,"body":"And sometimes there needs to be like boundaries set."},{"startTime":3570.7019999999998,"endTime":3575.984,"body":"But um I'll feel so much more fluid to me than that."},{"startTime":3575.984,"endTime":3577.2839999999997,"body":"So that would be really hard."},{"startTime":3577.2839999999997,"endTime":3582.1259999999997,"body":"then plus, I've gotten this, yeah, it seems like you want to say something."},{"startTime":3583.047,"endTime":3583.307,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":3583.307,"endTime":3584.3819999999996,"body":"Yes, please, please."},{"startTime":3584.3819999999996,"endTime":3589.9159999999997,"body":"point right now, um it begs the question when you're like, of course you have to have"},{"startTime":3584.3819999999996,"endTime":3589.9159999999997,"body":"boundaries."},{"startTime":3589.9159999999997,"endTime":3592.538,"body":"Of course you have to have, well, it begs the question, why?"},{"startTime":3592.538,"endTime":3603.6059999999998,"body":"Like, why are you, if you're in a monogamous relationship, because all of us, when we're"},{"startTime":3592.538,"endTime":3603.6059999999998,"body":"talking Mormons on Mushrooms podcast, we're all coming from the background of Mormon"},{"startTime":3603.6059999999998,"endTime":3605.4269999999997,"body":"temple marriage monogamy."},{"startTime":3605.428,"endTime":3607.183,"body":"And so the reason why,"},{"startTime":3607.183,"endTime":3614.419,"body":"we had those in the past was so that we could fit into this patriarchal oppressive"},{"startTime":3607.183,"endTime":3614.419,"body":"paradigm."},{"startTime":3614.419,"endTime":3625.9489999999996,"body":"And at this point, it's like, if you want, like if you are pursuing, if you're ex-Mormon"},{"startTime":3614.419,"endTime":3625.9489999999996,"body":"and you're letting your sexual, sexual development, you know, unfold and you're pursuing a"},{"startTime":3625.9489999999996,"endTime":3627.5499999999997,"body":"monogamous relationship, why?"},{"startTime":3627.5499999999997,"endTime":3630.933,"body":"Not that there's a right or wrong answer or a good or bad, but are you aware of why?"},{"startTime":3630.933,"endTime":3636.0969999999998,"body":"And I think a lot of people are using monogamy."},{"startTime":3636.1929999999998,"endTime":3642.5389999999998,"body":"as a substitute for things that they potentially should be offering to themselves, like"},{"startTime":3636.1929999999998,"endTime":3642.5389999999998,"body":"self-approval and security."},{"startTime":3642.5389999999998,"endTime":3656.611,"body":"uh And that's the last thing that I was wanting to say, which was like, personally, my"},{"startTime":3642.5389999999998,"endTime":3656.611,"body":"personal opinion that I strongly advocate for is to change, think, I think for ex-Mormons"},{"startTime":3656.611,"endTime":3663.767,"body":"in particular, to change the question of less about like, should I be monogamous or"},{"startTime":3656.611,"endTime":3663.767,"body":"polyamorous and more about like,"},{"startTime":3663.777,"endTime":3674.144,"body":"Am I being honest with myself about, it's the same thing, it's the process that I would"},{"startTime":3663.777,"endTime":3674.144,"body":"hope happened when they're sitting in that gospel doctrine class."},{"startTime":3674.424,"endTime":3679.408,"body":"Am I being honest about what I think and what I feel and what I want?"},{"startTime":3679.408,"endTime":3682.5899999999997,"body":"And am I valuing who this person is?"},{"startTime":3683.8909999999996,"endTime":3688.674,"body":"Am I approving of what this person wants and doesn't want?"},{"startTime":3688.714,"endTime":3692.837,"body":"And when it's coming from a place of"},{"startTime":3692.837,"endTime":3703.767,"body":"deep self-acceptance and self-approval, then you can have the project not be, do I fit"},{"startTime":3692.837,"endTime":3703.767,"body":"myself into this noun or this noun, like monogamy or polyamory?"},{"startTime":3703.767,"endTime":3708.211,"body":"The project is just like, how do I be kind to myself and others?"},{"startTime":3708.211,"endTime":3714.736,"body":"How do I integrate all of these different things that are happening inside of me?"},{"startTime":3714.977,"endTime":3716.538,"body":"And it's gonna be messy."},{"startTime":3716.538,"endTime":3720.261,"body":"But the mess that comes from..."},{"startTime":3721.1989999999996,"endTime":3733.174,"body":"lying to yourself and lying to other people versus the mess that comes from the intention"},{"startTime":3721.1989999999996,"endTime":3733.174,"body":"to, I'm just learning about who I am and discovering who I am and discovering life."},{"startTime":3733.4139999999998,"endTime":3738.676,"body":"That is a very different mess that, yeah."},{"startTime":3738.676,"endTime":3740.2889999999998,"body":"So that's what I wanted to say."},{"startTime":3740.2889999999998,"endTime":3749.614,"body":"I think you just summed that's really that what you said there at the very end about like"},{"startTime":3740.2889999999998,"endTime":3749.614,"body":"it's a very different type of mess is kind of that you and tying it back to the Aubrey"},{"startTime":3749.614,"endTime":3763.672,"body":"Marcus stuff in the beginning with like when I was seeing reflection of him and me and"},{"startTime":3749.614,"endTime":3763.672,"body":"realizing the times when I've tried to uh even unconsciously manipulate it wasn't like it"},{"startTime":3763.672,"endTime":3769.5789999999997,"body":"wasn't like malicious consciously it was just I think growing up"},{"startTime":3769.5789999999997,"endTime":3774.732,"body":"I just learned to, like, I felt like I couldn't just go for my needs."},{"startTime":3774.732,"endTime":3780.5249999999996,"body":"I had to kind of, you know, manipulate, smooth the waters, do this to kind of sneakily get"},{"startTime":3774.732,"endTime":3780.5249999999996,"body":"my needs met."},{"startTime":3780.5249999999996,"endTime":3795.964,"body":"um With that mirrored back, uh those are the times when it actually created more mess than"},{"startTime":3780.5249999999996,"endTime":3795.964,"body":"when I was just, I was in like more of a vulnerable, like a spot where, like expressing my"},{"startTime":3795.964,"endTime":3798.147,"body":"feelings in the moment, being like this, if I could."},{"startTime":3798.147,"endTime":3807.493,"body":"So if going back in time, I could, if any, you know, I had to go through the experiences I"},{"startTime":3798.147,"endTime":3807.493,"body":"did, but I would love to go back and just be like, being able to express my feelings in"},{"startTime":3807.493,"endTime":3813.122,"body":"that given moment instead of, in express my needs in that given moment, even if the needs"},{"startTime":3807.493,"endTime":3813.122,"body":"are nebulous."},{"startTime":3813.122,"endTime":3814.959,"body":"It's like, I feel this need."},{"startTime":3814.959,"endTime":3821.2929999999997,"body":"So, I mean, just to be specific, oh you know, there was a time it was soon after doing"},{"startTime":3814.959,"endTime":3821.2929999999997,"body":"mushrooms for the first time."},{"startTime":3821.2929999999997,"endTime":3827.9669999999996,"body":"was soon after doing MDMA for the first time where I was feeling like, oh, there's like,"},{"startTime":3828.287,"endTime":3838.4919999999997,"body":"the energetics of sex, where, you know, before Mormonism, I just felt like was all"},{"startTime":3828.287,"endTime":3838.4919999999997,"body":"physical, but like, there's an energetic component there."},{"startTime":3838.493,"endTime":3841.4539999999997,"body":"And there was like, I think I was feeling a lot of..."},{"startTime":3841.4539999999997,"endTime":3843.335,"body":"ah"},{"startTime":3845.729,"endTime":3853.5029999999997,"body":"regret, I guess I'll write like that I missed out on uh having experiences with other"},{"startTime":3845.729,"endTime":3853.5029999999997,"body":"people."},{"startTime":3854.343,"endTime":3859.285,"body":"And the first time I did that, because before when I thought it was physical, I'm like, I"},{"startTime":3854.343,"endTime":3859.285,"body":"don't I don't."},{"startTime":3860.386,"endTime":3861.437,"body":"There's nothing to mourn there."},{"startTime":3861.437,"endTime":3863.388,"body":"But then I'm like, there is something."},{"startTime":3863.388,"endTime":3866.3689999999997,"body":"But I didn't know I didn't I wasn't going to therapy yet."},{"startTime":3866.3689999999997,"endTime":3868.399,"body":"I wasn't doing working with dreams."},{"startTime":3868.399,"endTime":3870.491,"body":"I you know, I wasn't doing anything."},{"startTime":3870.7329999999997,"endTime":3874.555,"body":"Self, like I didn't know how to express and I was emotionally immature."},{"startTime":3874.555,"endTime":3876.076,"body":"And so I didn't know how to express my emotions."},{"startTime":3876.076,"endTime":3881.509,"body":"And so instead I tried to like sneakily like manipulate the situation."},{"startTime":3881.609,"endTime":3885.8109999999997,"body":"Whereas I wish I could just been honest with like, look, I don't know what I'm feeling"},{"startTime":3881.609,"endTime":3885.8109999999997,"body":"right now."},{"startTime":3885.8709999999996,"endTime":3895.437,"body":"I just feeling like I want more experiences, but I love this, you know, but I'm just in"},{"startTime":3885.8709999999996,"endTime":3895.437,"body":"this like weird tension that I don't know what to do with."},{"startTime":3895.437,"endTime":3900.239,"body":"And maybe not even voice it that way, but find a way to like be authentic to this like."},{"startTime":3900.239,"endTime":3909.459,"body":"swirl of feelings that are contradicting each other and maybe part of it's like, look,"},{"startTime":3900.239,"endTime":3909.459,"body":"I've got stuff to sort out for myself."},{"startTime":3909.459,"endTime":3917.839,"body":"I need space to just sort out what this is before I even try to voice it because it's so,"},{"startTime":3909.459,"endTime":3917.839,"body":"it's like a knot that's all tied up."},{"startTime":3917.839,"endTime":3919.359,"body":"Maybe that's part of it."},{"startTime":3920.1989999999996,"endTime":3924.0789999999997,"body":"Repressed sexuality becomes like a knot that it's hard to unpack."},{"startTime":3924.823,"endTime":3927.364,"body":"Yeah, you really just said that beautifully."},{"startTime":3927.364,"endTime":3931.0679999999998,"body":"I feel like you just gave people who are listening a template to try that themselves."},{"startTime":3931.0679999999998,"endTime":3939.285,"body":"Like, hey, I have the intention to, you're describing emotional honesty or emotionally"},{"startTime":3931.0679999999998,"endTime":3939.285,"body":"authentic, like to just."},{"startTime":3939.605,"endTime":3942.769,"body":"accurately represent this is how I'm feeling."},{"startTime":3942.769,"endTime":3945.071,"body":"This is and that I don't know."},{"startTime":3945.071,"endTime":3948.364,"body":"Like that's a big part of recovering from Mormonism is knowing mind."},{"startTime":3948.364,"endTime":3950.0699999999997,"body":"Like I don't know."},{"startTime":3950.0699999999997,"endTime":3956.6229999999996,"body":"I don't know what I need or what I need next, but I need some time and space to figure it"},{"startTime":3950.0699999999997,"endTime":3956.6229999999996,"body":"out."},{"startTime":3956.6229999999996,"endTime":3958.479,"body":"em"},{"startTime":3958.479,"endTime":3963.533,"body":"But yeah, you just described like that's, uh I know we talked to the beginning about the"},{"startTime":3958.479,"endTime":3963.533,"body":"work that I do with people."},{"startTime":3963.533,"endTime":3965.173,"body":"That is exactly it."},{"startTime":3965.194,"endTime":3975.0099999999998,"body":"It's helping them to create a space to be with themselves and to just first of all, get in"},{"startTime":3965.194,"endTime":3975.0099999999998,"body":"touch with what's there and start to let it come forward."},{"startTime":3975.0099999999998,"endTime":3978.643,"body":"And it doesn't have to be any sort of way and just describing how it actually is."},{"startTime":3978.643,"endTime":3988.089,"body":"And then in relationships, being able to learn the skill of saying this is"},{"startTime":3988.5449999999996,"endTime":3990.638,"body":"accurately how I'm feeling right now."},{"startTime":3991.535,"endTime":4002.953,"body":"So, Kelly, I wish we had more time to dive into more of this, but um I had an experience"},{"startTime":3991.535,"endTime":4002.953,"body":"with that in talking to, I don't know, my ex or whatever, but we had a very vulnerable"},{"startTime":4002.953,"endTime":4014.515,"body":"conversation a few weeks ago where I think for one of the first times I just was able to"},{"startTime":4002.953,"endTime":4014.515,"body":"just keep it in that I feel this, I felt this, I feel, you know, and then sometimes we"},{"startTime":4014.515,"endTime":4016.524,"body":"would try to get into this thing of like, well, what does that mean?"},{"startTime":4016.524,"endTime":4018.939,"body":"like, no, no, it doesn't mean anything."},{"startTime":4018.939,"endTime":4019.2709999999997,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4019.2709999999997,"endTime":4022.8129999999996,"body":"like a couple of times we would try to get in this like, let me push back on that."},{"startTime":4022.8129999999996,"endTime":4026.0339999999997,"body":"Like, wait, there's nothing to push back on just to be clear."},{"startTime":4026.114,"endTime":4027.645,"body":"You might have any different experiences."},{"startTime":4027.645,"endTime":4029.796,"body":"I'm just voicing my experience."},{"startTime":4029.796,"endTime":4039.91,"body":"you can then say, I felt this and I felt this, but there's really nothing for any of us to"},{"startTime":4029.796,"endTime":4039.91,"body":"push back on here."},{"startTime":4039.91,"endTime":4046.803,"body":"It's hearing each other in our felt experience of what we went through and what we're"},{"startTime":4039.91,"endTime":4046.803,"body":"going through."},{"startTime":4046.803,"endTime":4052.028,"body":"And I can't imagine anyone better to work with than you on this."},{"startTime":4052.028,"endTime":4053.54,"body":"No, really, I mean that."},{"startTime":4053.54,"endTime":4067.493,"body":"I don't just, I really think you in the way you've navigated and then the stuff you've"},{"startTime":4053.54,"endTime":4067.493,"body":"learned over the, you know, the 10 years uh leaving Mormonism and the way um you navigate"},{"startTime":4067.493,"endTime":4070.946,"body":"it with such like authenticity and grace and."},{"startTime":4070.946,"endTime":4072.0069999999996,"body":"uh"},{"startTime":4072.5229999999997,"endTime":4077.227,"body":"And messiness, know, and you've been vulnerable about the messiness of it."},{"startTime":4077.227,"endTime":4081.6409999999996,"body":"And so I think you're like, um so in other words, how do people find you to work?"},{"startTime":4082.354,"endTime":4085.698,"body":"And then my website, Kelly Christine Case is still available."},{"startTime":4085.698,"endTime":4088.5809999999997,"body":"And also it's pretty, I don't know, can people shoot me a message?"},{"startTime":4088.5809999999997,"endTime":4091.504,"body":"Can you put my way to contact me or go to my TikTok?"},{"startTime":4091.504,"endTime":4096.59,"body":"How about follow me on TikTok, Kelly Christine Case on TikTok and you can send me a DM"},{"startTime":4091.504,"endTime":4096.59,"body":"there."},{"startTime":4096.59,"endTime":4097.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"startTime":4097.827,"endTime":4106.353,"body":"people fall like I'm really loving the TikToks and they just heard like I said when it's"},{"startTime":4097.827,"endTime":4106.353,"body":"coming from that space of like I just want to like I feel like I want to share it so I'm"},{"startTime":4106.353,"endTime":4110.415,"body":"going to share it that's that's where it's magic"},{"startTime":4110.415,"endTime":4113.186,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly, that's the same thing."},{"startTime":4113.186,"endTime":4120.608,"body":"It's the same thing as you talking about emotional honesty and authenticity and practicing"},{"startTime":4113.186,"endTime":4120.608,"body":"that with your ex."},{"startTime":4120.608,"endTime":4131.532,"body":"It's just being able to, it's that self-approval of saying, is this person, I'm gonna give"},{"startTime":4120.608,"endTime":4131.532,"body":"them a microphone, I'm gonna let them just say what they think and feel."},{"startTime":4131.532,"endTime":4135.893,"body":"And um what you were just describing with your ex,"},{"startTime":4136.7390000000005,"endTime":4143.918,"body":"Like to me, the irony is because you were talking about that with an ex, but, that"},{"startTime":4144.849,"endTime":4147.892,"body":"in my experience, that is uh poetry."},{"startTime":4147.892,"endTime":4157.058,"body":"That is when I learn that skill and I can have somebody meet me there, that's actually the"},{"startTime":4147.892,"endTime":4157.058,"body":"place of being in love with life."},{"startTime":4157.139,"endTime":4165.325,"body":"And you can meet anybody else in that space of the melty, goopy, this is my felt"},{"startTime":4157.139,"endTime":4165.325,"body":"experience."},{"startTime":4165.325,"endTime":4169.068,"body":"Like it's instead of saying like I looked at the sunset, it's like the..."},{"startTime":4170.223,"endTime":4180.978,"body":"the peachy melting raspberry sorbet hues, know, like you're, you're described like, like"},{"startTime":4170.223,"endTime":4180.978,"body":"what can, no one can argue with the truth."},{"startTime":4180.978,"endTime":4187.581,"body":"Like if in this moment I am petrified or, you know, I'm, I'm seeing red."},{"startTime":4187.581,"endTime":4188.691,"body":"I'm so furious."},{"startTime":4188.691,"endTime":4192.553,"body":"Like all of that is so, that's the space of love."},{"startTime":4192.553,"endTime":4197.188999999999,"body":"And so, you know, you can, as you learn to cultivate that skill."},{"startTime":4197.188999999999,"endTime":4208.023,"body":"learn how to express yourself and how you're really feeling honestly, in a way, you can"},{"startTime":4197.188999999999,"endTime":4208.023,"body":"meet in the place of love, which is really the place of life and where things can be just"},{"startTime":4208.023,"endTime":4211.847,"body":"flowing and open with anybody."},{"startTime":4213.281,"endTime":4221.6759999999995,"body":"There's a freedom that comes from it too, that I felt, because it was like this freedom of"},{"startTime":4213.281,"endTime":4221.6759999999995,"body":"like, when I was able to just voice some of those things without judgment, without me"},{"startTime":4221.6759999999995,"endTime":4231.840999999999,"body":"judging them, and then being witnessed in me just expressing kind of just like the raw"},{"startTime":4221.6759999999995,"endTime":4231.840999999999,"body":"emotions of it, and speaking to the emotion, not from it, just kind of like speaking, this"},{"startTime":4231.840999999999,"endTime":4242.099,"body":"is just what I'm feeling, this is what I felt at the time, and now I'm feeling this now,"},{"startTime":4231.840999999999,"endTime":4242.099,"body":"and it re-emphasizes the fluidity of these emotions too, and they don't."},{"startTime":4242.099,"endTime":4250.854,"body":"stay and then when you do that when you voice it then it's like now the angers move"},{"startTime":4242.099,"endTime":4250.854,"body":"through and now i just don't feel angry anymore and i don't feel that it's just like you"},{"startTime":4250.854,"endTime":4256.987,"body":"move through the emotion and then you find now now i'm experiencing a new emotion"},{"startTime":4257.549,"endTime":4259.59,"body":"Yeah, beautifully said."},{"startTime":4263.2519999999995,"endTime":4264.769,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"startTime":4264.769,"endTime":4266.2429999999995,"body":"It's so nice to chat."},{"startTime":4266.2429999999995,"endTime":4270.595,"body":"We got to just hit the record button if we're ever going to."},{"startTime":4270.595,"endTime":4273.741,"body":"not more than five minutes at a time on Marco Polo."},{"startTime":4273.741,"endTime":4280.848,"body":"I've always thought that maybe there's a way to stitch together Marco Polos and just stuff"},{"startTime":4273.741,"endTime":4280.848,"body":"like that because those are always a lot of gems."},{"startTime":4280.848,"endTime":4286.303,"body":"So I hope you have a lovely Sunday and thanks for, and by the way, I'll put all that in"},{"startTime":4280.848,"endTime":4286.303,"body":"your show notes."},{"startTime":4286.303,"endTime":4288.675,"body":"So your website, the TikTok, all of it."},{"startTime":4288.675,"endTime":4290.851,"body":"So, okay."},{"startTime":4290.851,"endTime":4291.727,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4292.048,"endTime":4293.208,"body":"Much love."},{"startTime":4293.491,"endTime":4293.79,"body":"All right."},{"startTime":4293.79,"endTime":4294.15,"body":"You too."},{"startTime":4294.15,"endTime":4294.99,"body":"Bye."}]}