It's My Mystery Secret (#178)

Doug and Mike return from a brief hiatus to share tales of Doug's wild and difficult  mushroom trip, Mike's unexpected kiss with a flamboyant stranger, writing music, masculinity, primal rage, ketamine cavemen and much more.

Transcript

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I know the countdown's happening. Where do we even start? Like it's been a couple of weeks since we recorded and I don't even know where to start, dude. Like where do you want to, there's so much to talk about. I feel like we've got three episodes to record just tonight, but we don't have time for it. It's like. missed two weeks before? I think that we did take a, yeah, I think we have. We've taken some breaks. I know we're taking a break here and there. This has been a longer one and, and a lot's happened in those three weeks, man. Dude, a shitload has happened in those three weeks. Like, I don't even, like in the last three weeks, I don't know if I can even like quantify this or if this is just me, you know, if this is hyperbole, but like I for sure had the most significant like mushroom trip of my life, right? As far as like just, it was. the most difficult for sure. For sure it was the most difficult, darkest and all that kind of stuff. Like just brutal, brutal. But also like the most, I mean, like, geez, man, I came away with it with some stuff, you know? But it's also been like, I've wanted to talk to you about like, there's some TV shows I've wanted to talk about, like the boys I've wanted to talk about. I've been like, I've been like, like. fixating on the concept of faith lately, like I want to talk about faith as a concept. So I got all sorts of shit. So where are you at as far as like what are you feeling? let's, I think we just start with your mushroom trip and see how it goes from there. Cause it's also a good example of sometimes just dose does not have any indication on the type of experience you're going to have. You're like, I didn't get to do a small dose. I'm going to do a meditative dose. I'm going to do this. Well, you know, the medicine usually has other plans and so. Yeah, so we had, I was doing albino penis envy. I've never done that before. I did. had not done albino penis envy. Like people talk about all these different strands and strains and shit. I'm not good at strains of anything like, like with marijuana. By the way, I'm just going to say marijuana now too, whatever. Marijuana, cannabis, weed, they're all, I know they're like, don't say marijuana, but whatever. It's, you know. power? Doesn't that give power? Dude, that's the same thing with talking about like, we're not doing drugs. We're not doing medicine. And it's like, I guess I get what people are saying. And I guess it's like honoring and like being respectful toward the plants and being respectful toward the thing. But like, doesn't that give power to the other side? Like, doesn't that like, like, like, it's almost like It's almost like by saying, by limiting what I can call this stuff, it's like I'm empowering the people who want to take it away from me. I don't know how to explain that better than that, actually. so I, because it's like, okay, I'm sick of just giving words so much fucking power, you know? Now, of course, there's a few words that are very offensive to certain populations, like N word, R word. Of course I'm not going to say those words. But other than that, like, I think we're just, we're way too, like, look, I'm almost as liberal as we come. And the term snowflake is also very apt sometimes to that. Yes, I would think snowflake is apt on both sides. I think both the right and the left, we're fucking snowflakes sometimes and we can't handle, we just get, we get way too offended over way too little. Yeah, I mean, that's just outrage culture, right? I mean, people have sort of like, who are these people that I'm talking about? I'm not talking, okay, let me talk about just me. I have a tendency to, instead of like discourse and research and data and discussion, I can get into just deploying outrage culture. in order to shame someone into getting what I want. And both sides of the aisle do that in this attempt to, and it's not just politically, it's not just like both sides of some kind of aisle, it's religious people and non -religious people both do it. You and I talk, without end, we talk about sports. I can tell you why The Los Angeles Lakers are the most wicked, evil, disgusting franchise of sports ever, but it's like just, it's just bullshit, man. It's, it's all just bullshit. It's just what I want. It's my preference. My preference is to say the Lakers suck, you know? And they do, they suck big time. But they're also probably the most, it also makes them the most entertaining, right? I saw the TV show. You're not going to make a TV show about Utah jazz, you know? Yeah, what's that gonna be about? Like Jerry Sloan farming? They're just like, yeah, Jerry Sloan's on his fucking tractor again. Good job, Jerry. It's going to be about, it's going to, it's going to be a whole thing about the identity crisis of the Utah jazz of how like it's jazz where we're in Utah and we can't decide. We've really liked the name and some people love the name. We're never giving it up, but we're not, we're going to have mountains be the logo because we can't have the note be the logo. And we, we're switching our colors every few years because it's like the colors need to evoke the mountains of Utah. wait, no, it need, they need to be jazzy and Mardi Gras. wait, let's just throw in like a highlighter yellow in there because why the fuck not? wouldn't we? So that would be the whole, the whole thing is just one big identity crisis. And maybe that sums up the Mormon psyche in one, in a nutshell. dude, the Utah Jazz are such a good representation. It's not the Utah Jazz. It's not the basketball players. It's the identity of the fan base that drives this stuff. It's the shadow stuff. I mean, you're so good at recognizing and talking about that stuff, but that's what it is. It's the shadow of Mormonism is reflected back in the Utah Jazz. It really is, isn't it? Like, like it's weird. It's, it's, it's fucking weird that the Utah jazz always have a higher concentration of white players than any other team in the league. I don't even know if that's true. That's just me making shit up now, but, but to be true. It has to, I mean, because I mean, I've watched basketball enough. It has to be true. Yes. And it's always dude and God, can we just go down this path for a minute? I think we're just, we're walking through the woods right now and it's going to meander a lot. If you don't like, there's people that, I mean, I don't think, God, I'm like paralyzed by my own trying to like represent all sides. Fuck that. I'm not going to represent all sides. Like there are people that don't think racism is a problem in the world. Do you know what I mean? And they don't think that it exists to some degree or they think it's overblown to some degree or they think that there's some kind of like reverse racism going on or something like that. All I can say is this, watch the way the world and especially the United States, like watch the way the world reacts when there's a halfway decent white basketball player, the great white hope, the white savior thing. Like it just, it's becomes a fucking nightmare. It's like, dude, we exalt white players that have like a chance at being kind of good. And I don't even know that people do, but you go on the internet. Like here's what I'll use as an example. Alex Caruso. Do you know who Alex Caruso is? Played with the Lakers, kind of bald headed guy, a little shorter than me, a sharp shooter, hustle guy, real three, like, you know, kind of a three point threat and hustle defense, that kind of stuff. And he's beloved. He is beloved. And he's He went to the Bulls for a while, beloved by the Bulls. He just got traded to the Oklahoma City Thunder, beloved. Everybody's like, yay. This dude is a mid -level player, if that. He's a mid -level player in the NBA, if that. And dude, there's meme, like he's memed out and it's just like, he's the great white hope. Think about the Jimmer for debt craze. Think about the fucking... Tupper flag who's going into the NBA, he's going to the Duke this fall. He's going to the NBA next year. He's going to be the number one pick unanimously. I mean, he's dude, white people want to cheer for a white guy. They want Larry, fucking Larry Bird. Look at Larry. Dude, Larry Bird is, is, is considered like a legend. Like, I mean, he, he's, he's a mythological creature among white people. And the fact is he's a great basketball player. He's an, he's an all time great basketball. But you can always tell like, like when, when white people are like, yeah, Larry Bird's my favorite player. He's the best player of all time. It's like, bro, he's not the best player of all time. He's not the best player of all time. Like, like objectively data driven statistic. He is not the best player of all time. Quit your fucking stop with that shit. You know, I know Utah jazz fans. I know it like John Stockton is okay. I get it, but everybody just quit it with that shit, you know? And then it's, I think the acceptable term to call black people, I'm saying acceptable because it's what people, like I don't find it, you know what I mean? Is the word, they're a bum or a thug? That's what they are, right? yeah, dude, like dude, bums and thugs are, there are, there are middle aged men out there. And it's funny cause we're getting to be middle aged. So I gotta be like, I don't know who I got to. well there. Yeah, I ain't living to 88, so I'm past middle of my age, I guess. But like when I'm saying middle age, I'm talking about like, I think I'm talking about like guys our dad's age. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes these older cats and like. I mean, man, there's a their biggest problem like a sports fan's biggest problem is these bums and thugs. And what they really mean is these black dudes. You know what I mean? They're like afraid of black dudes. Black dudes are going to steal our women. It's like, geez, man, maybe relax just a little bit. Like, just chill out a little bit here. Like the whole world has gone crazy because we elected a black man president. The whole world has gone crazy because we had the audacity to elect a black man for the president of the United States. And so as punishment, they're like, okay, we're going to send you Donald Trump and he's our guy and we're going to create a cult around him and Donald Trump's the guy. And it's just like. You guys, are you just doing this because Barack Obama was president for eight years? Like, get over your, it's fine. Everything's going to be just fine. You don't need to overcorrect so hard. You don't need to do it. okay. Let me get us back on track. No, no, that's not too much at all. I just, want to hear about your mushroom trip. Like we went down that path and I was like, yeah, we can keep going, but I really want to hear about this mushroom trip. So is that bad to pull us back to, I'm just reeling this back in. It's cool. so yeah, marijuana, I don't know the strands of like cannabis very well. I mean, I'm really, it's all the way back here. So, and so I don't know about penis envy. I had one called Jack Frost. I didn't even know there was a strand called Jack. I don't know how many strands of mushrooms there fucking are. I don't know how many, how many fungi things are there that get a man high. Yeah. so you had a gram of penis envy. One gram. I was like, you know, fucking every time I think I'm, every time I think I'm, you know, Johnny cool. I come into town and I'm just like, I'm just going to have a little tiny, I just want a gram of mushrooms, almost like a little bit of half of a dose. I just want to have a meditative opportunity. You want to kind of sway and dance and feel the, feel the rhythm of the whole thing. That is not what happened for me. Like I, I mean, what the hell, man. I mean, I knew you were in trouble from the get go. You were, you had some pretty crazy eyes there in the Airbnb first. And, and I was feeling it too. I was feeling very just uncomfortable in my body, like very heavy in my body, like the bottom half, I kept stretching. I'm like, I just can't feel, I felt, I just didn't feel comfortable in my skin. and then at one point I go out to check on you and you're already puking. Yeah, like not long into the trip, right? Like, like it came on fast, you know, we lemon teched it and it came on fast and instant like, like not, not 10 minutes, 10 minutes into the trip. I was like, God. So I went outside. Couldn't be, couldn't be inside. Could not be inside. The air was too heavy. The energy was too much. It was, it was too thick and, and, and, You know, tasted as visceral. I was like, dude, I got to get the fuck out of here. So I went outside, brought my blanket out there. I was trying to decide. I wanted to sit in the shade cause the sun was beaming down, but I was a little too chilly. So I had to sit in the sun and I was a little too hot sitting in the sun. I mean, I knew from the get go that this was going to be a rough time. And I mean, you came out to, well, I mean, you said you came out to check out, check on me, but you came out and you never went back in. Did I go back in when I, no, I never went back in. No. Yeah. You said I never went back in. No. I mean, I think I was feeling the same thing indoors, like indoors felt, I mean, when I went outside, I was still the same issue of like, I couldn't feel comfortable in my body, but there was a heaviness to being indoors. I'm like, I need to be outside. Even though at first I was like pretty cold. I was cold out. That's amazing for me to hear that because I was fucking freezing and I was wrapped up in blankets and you were like, cause you know, so we're out there and I made the joke that we'll come back to later about me trying to like, if only the sun was a little, I could turn down the temperature of the sun just a little bit. Then I'd be okay. Then I'd be more comfortable. Then things would be better, you know? But I'm out there puking, I'm purging my brains out, my guts out, my heart out, my soul out. And you're out there near me. For a little while we chatted and you were trying to comfort me and I was trying to comfort you back. And that's always a fun experience too, right? When like, it's just like, that's like a good, that's a really good analogy for life of like, like we're both just not having a grand, like we're not really with it and we don't know what we're doing, but we're just doing our best to, you know, comfort each other, walking each other home best we can, you know? and so it's like, I would try to be there for you. But then I also wanted to like purge my shit too. And so that it was like this thing and then we're trying to like, reflect back to you just how, you know, awesome I think you are, you know. You're doing you're doing a great job. You're doing all the things I wasn't hearing it like I was just like can't can't with it right now but you were doing the same back to me though, too. Yeah. So I mean, what were you, I mean, you were feeling sick. You were feeling, I don't know if you can describe it. Yeah, I mean, I was feeling the need to the discomfort, the nausea, the need to purge. But I love that you talked about how you weren't comfortable in your body because I felt like that miserable feeling and that like things are taking a turn towards the dark and the hopeless and the helpless and like the visuals were pretty strong, you know, the sacred geometry type stuff and And the aliens made a light and the elves and all that kind of like it was it was with me, man. And I was I couldn't escape it. I was I would I was I was miserable. So I'd close my eyes. But by closing my eyes, that would make the visuals even stronger. And the elves were just doing their surgery on me. And that was so I'd be like, I got to escape for a while. So I'd open my eyes and just that cycle. You know what I mean? It was just that cycle of like nothing is right and everything sucks and everything's and I and I and you know that feeling of like, why did I do this? And I hate that. But I'm also trying to like, you know, deploy my tools. I'm trying to be like, okay, well, let's move around a little bit. Let's stand up. Let's stretch. Let's get some yoga going. Let's walk, find a place. Let's sit in the sunshine. Like, let's lean into this. You know, if the trip has taken us in that direction, let's lean towards that direction. Let's see what we can do. Like I was doing all that shit and nothing was helping me. Like nothing until, I mean, all I could possibly do is face the self things that the mushrooms were taking, telling me to face. Like I, all I could do was the introspection that the mushrooms wanted me to do. And you know, and you were out there and you were helping. I mean, you were trying like you were, you were, you were, you were shouting and growling and echoing through the canyon. Dude, talk a little bit about that. Would you? Well, so I feel like a lot of what was coming up for me and maybe both of us was masculinity. I mean, for me, that was, I think the thing, the thing, my trip, you know, and, you know, then leaving Mormonism and doing, you know, this, podcast, we talk a lot about like returning to the divine feminine in this, because she was completely absent from us growing up, right. And getting back in touch with the earth and the mother, And for me, it was this, and rightfully so, we talk a lot about how awful it is to be a woman in the Mormon church and being marginalized. And so I want to talk a little bit about how hard it is also to be put in a role when you're at a young age of being a sole provider for a family. of being the, you know, the person who's, who's supposed to, because we were, we were taught, we were the ones who were supposed to hold it all together. And it creates this dynamic where I feel like I have kept so much insight. I don't complain. I don't like unload my burdens a lot. I don't, you know, I don't want to burden my wife at the time or my kids, or I just. I hold so much in and I hold so much. And a lot's coming up for me lately. There's a lot of money fear. There's a lot of career fear in my career, fear in going through trying to do school and the podcast and, and be a father and be a single father out in the dating world. Being, trying to write music, trying to relive some of life that I didn't get to live. And all that panic and fear was coming up. around that. And eventually I just started just screaming, howling. Primal rage, primal, that's all I could do was just like, Just like scream at the top of my lungs. And we were in this most beautiful valley and you could see the Tetons in the distance. It was incredible. It was almost like... For a minute there, it felt like an epic showdown between two gods who were like, you know, and I was thumping my chest and I was trying to get you to thump your chest too. Like, okay, Douglas hash this out. Let's do this. And then I would start. Then you would go throw up again. And then I would do, I would do like a yip or a howl like a wolf. And it would like echo across the canyon. And I was having the time of my life doing it. It felt so good just to like let it out. Like let like a primal yell out. Like it was, I guess the weekend was a little bit about getting back to my primal nature. Yeah, man. Heck yeah. Heck yeah it was. And watching that was like it, you know, and there's like some, there's some petulance to it, right? Like there's like this, almost like a, almost like a kid throwing a fit, you know, like we're out there just like kicking against it and we're, and we're, and, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're like echoing through the canyon and you're shouting and hollering. It's like a kid throwing a temper tantrum out there. Do you know what I mean? I was just screaming and beating my chest and just getting back to that, like, like the growl, like my growl was coming alive during there the whole weekend. It was like this growl and. And that's the only way I can move through the energy and it got lighter when I, after that, like, yeah, I mean, for me, the trip got so much lighter after that, but I know you were still in it the whole night. into the next morning even. The next morning I was purging. Like I was still fucking tripping the next morning. Like I still had like the visual. I was like, what, what is going on here? And I was willing to blame everything, you know, I was willing to blame, the rest of you all, like for sending it to me, like I was like purging, like for the community, for the group type of deal. Bullshit. I wasn't doing that. I was doing my own thing. I was willing to say, I just got a bad batch of mushrooms. Bullshit. I didn't get a bad batch of mushrooms. I got a good batch of mushrooms. I was trying to blame that we had eaten fucking four hours before that. Bullshit, man. I've done mushrooms drunk and on a full stomach. I was trying to blame everything except for myself. I was trying to blame, I was trying to blame, I was trying to victimize. I was trying to find a way to make myself the victim and just couldn't do it. It's not working. It's not working for me, dog. I'm not the victim. I wanted to be helpful. I wanted to be useful. I wanted to help hold space. I wanted to be... I was fucking worthless. I was helpless. I could not do anything. I couldn't go... I couldn't go ask questions and check on other people. I couldn't dance. I couldn't play music. I could not do a fucking thing. I was crippled by it. And you were so helpful. A couple people checked on us, checked on me, checked on you. They were helpful, but it wasn't happening, man. It just wasn't happening. And we're talking like, you know, the sun is setting and I, Jesus Christ, that sunset lasted what, four weeks? It was so, so long. It was, but it was, it was fucking gorgeous. I kept thinking to myself, I kept thinking to myself, if this once the sun goes down, that means we've been in it long enough that I'll probably start feeling better. Just once the sun goes down and I can look up and see the stars, then I'll be okay. And it kept bringing me back to presence. Like, that's not going to happen, bud. Like you've got to be here now with this shit. You can't because because me trying to me trying to control like I'd feel okay, me trying to control the temperature of the sun. Like I had to deal with something that I've never tried dealing with before, which is my deep, deep control issues. Like I think I know better than the rest of you out there. Like I do. I think that if you'd just rely on me, if you'd just let me take care of it, shit would go smoothly. It would go so much better. And that is the great fucking lie that I've been telling myself for the last lifetime. You know? Yeah, I know. I just, I'm thinking of a couple of things you said, one about like taking on other people's shit. And I know you're like, it was my shit and it, and so that's, I mean, that's, that's part of it, right? is like, but there's also a part that it becomes your shit because you're letting it, right? so I don't know if it's untrue that you weren't picking up from all of us. And maybe that's why you had to get out of the house. And maybe I kind of do the same thing. Maybe that's also why I needed to get out of the house. cause I'm very similar to you in that way. And I feel like I'm learning now that I feel like an asshole doing it, but I don't need to take on people's shit. and so it's my shit because I'm, I'm willing to just hold it all. I'm willing to like, like that death by a thousand cuts we're talking about. I'm willing to be like, you know what? This person wants me to do something for them and I'm okay doing it because it's not too big of it. It's not, you know, it's like, I can carry a lot in my arms. I can carry one more grocery bag, you know, in. If I need to, what's the difference? I'm already walking from point A to point B. What's one more grocery bag. Right. and I'm not saying this in any way to say that like, I'm just trying to, to, I guess for me it's tying back to that masculinity thing of like, try that feeling of trying to hold it all together and how much of a burden that is and how. I feel like I'm returning from this trip and maybe this is jumping ahead, but I'll just jump there now with this part of like, I'm returning just being like, look, it's time to just get in touch with my fuck. No. and if it's not a fuck, yes, it's a fuck. No. And if I hurt people's feelings in the process, so be it. But like I've made myself too available, too open to, I'm carrying on burdens, which I don't need to carry that maybe I'm doing people the disservice for caring for thinking, for trying to carry it for them anyway. Or even hubristic and like a savior complex, they even think I could hold it for them. And these things that we're feeling are because of something that you mentioned earlier. We have really gone hard in trying to honor and celebrate and invite into our lives the divine feminine and worship the divine feminine and praise. and follow the lead of that. And that's fantastic, but also, you know, we've talked about like, caging our spouses in at a young age and all of the things that we've like basically inflicted upon the divine feminine, right? But my and here to what you're saying is, and that has been thrust upon us. That sense of you have to hold everything is thrust upon young boys, I think probably in all aspects of life, but certainly and very intensely within Mormonism, right? For God's sake, when you're 12 years old, they give you the power of God. 12 years old, you now have the power of God. Okay. You're 12. You gotta be worthy of wielding God's power now that you're 12 years old. And in the course of that decade, from 12 to 22, You've got to go through the stages of priesthood. You got to graduate from high school. You've got to stay chaste. You got to avoid masturbation. You got to avoid booze. You got to do all of your formative years. You got to do all your teenage years with that in mind that you have to learn control. You have to learn control. It starts with the self, self control. And you can't act upon natural instincts and natural, your natural man is an enemy. Then after you graduate from high school and you're going into your college years, I know this is basic stuff, but I want to really examine it real quick. Then you have to go on a mission and speak for God. You have to be a representative of Jesus Christ, the most perfect man, the only perfect person that ever existed on the earth. You now have to be his mouthpiece. And in a lot of cases, both of us, You got to do it in a foreign language. You got to learn a language to do it. So from 12 to 22, from the age of 12 to 22, I got the priesthood. I went through the temple. I went on my mission and I got married. When I got back from my mission, it was like, okay, get married, start a family. Make more humans rely on you because you've been mastering the art of... Being able to be reliable, being able to have it all locked down and have it all under control. And so of course I'm now 44 years old and, and fallen and broken and, and, and shattered to pieces trying to figure out what to do with this deep seated sense of control. Like that I've got to have control, not only over me, but all over everybody that it would be better if I was in control of everything. Talk about a God complex. It's interesting because when I'm thinking of, that's so, it's really unlocking something in me with that because, I remember earlier on when we were in the house, someone had made the comment that if you don't release the pressure, it released the pressure before a big wave comes or something like that. I don't know what they were even talking about. You know, that thing when you're tripping and someone says something and you feel like it's just for your trip. And I'm thinking about. Like when we're trying to control those instincts, how much pressure builds up and there's no release valve. I mean, I've even talked about how I used to masturbate in my sleep on, in my mission, because it's just like, I needed a pressure released valve. And finally, you know, like, and when I'm asleep, like, like, okay, let's do this for you. Yeah. Yes. It's not your fault. It happened while you were unconscious. You were passed out. You were asleep. It's not your fault, you know. Yeah, it was my, my any or my any that did the any and Audi or whatever the. Yeah, that's really hitting me hard with that. So that's what I was really dealing with. And then someone came out and was talking to us for an extended period of time. And we had some blankets, we're just laying on the grass. And I was trying, I was trying to... Dude, I laid there and I wanted to think of something cool to say. I wanted to think of clever things. I wanted to be able to have insights. I wanted to have a aha moment. I wanted to have the enlightenment. I wanted to have the thing that was like, wow, it was all worth it. Like all that pain, all that suffering, all that frustration, all that miserable yuck was worth it. Cause now I've got this profound thing to say. And every time I even tried, I had to get into the fucking fetal position or I had to get up on hands and knees or I had to get up onto my, you know, my runner stance or whatever, like your hands on your knees and bent over, just purging, dry heaving, belching. Like just, I was a wreck. I was a wreck. Mike, have you ever seen me like that before? Never not like that. No, I mean, even the first time we did ayahuasca, I didn't see that once I wasn't there in your Syrian Rue one, which would seem almost equally awful or whatever. But like, I was I was there in the first ayahuasca one where you were just laid out flat the whole time. But and that has probably been the worst trip state I'd seen you in this was I've never seen you like that. man, I was really going through it as far as like just dealing with, okay, what is this? Like what? You're going to send you're sending. You're sending yourself to early grave and you're sending yourself, you're making yourself miserable. You're blaming the world, you're projecting outward, you're doing all this stuff to be some kind of image of yourself, to be what you think you are, to be what you want people to see you. Because I'm trying to control other people's image of me, man. I'm trying to control other people's opinions. Like if only I can do, if only if I can say things a certain way, and only if I can kind of look a certain way, and maybe if I can have a certain... smoothness, whatever, people will think something about me. They won't know the dirty little secret. They won't know if I can just fucking fool people into loving me. Maybe their love will convince me that I can. What's your dirty little secret though? I don't know. Well, we can talk. I mean, I think that was it. That was that was it. That was me just expressing it. You know, we can get to we can get to different mystery secrets in a second if you want to. it just reminded me of that when you said the dirty little secret. Yeah. So I mean, maybe we, maybe we, maybe we fast forward to that part because, because some, some of those, some of those realizations or God, I didn't even have anything profound. I just had and fuck being profound, but I, I, some things that you and I talked about opened up like, like shattered open in a big way in that sort of like, hopefully that Kinsuke kind of way, you know what I mean? Shattered to pieces. Some of these stories about myself that I was dealing with. of the, you know what I mean? And, and, and you were a, you were a real critical part of that. And this podcast is a real, is a real critical part of that. And I'd like to talk about that a little bit too, if we could, but we got to probably, I got to turn it over to you for a little while to kind of catch up to where we're at, like chronologically. for me then it kind of shifted to, you know, I was thinking of, I don't know what got us thinking of this, but like, you know, I was thinking about how, and especially on my mission, I guess I was thinking about this self -discovery I'm on now being single and 44 years old and out of the church and exploring myself and my sexuality and, and my, and who, who Mike is. who Mike is away from being a married Mormon man, you know? And it's been this thing where it's like, when I was on my mission, I had this compulsive need to confess because I felt like there was something awful I had done. And if I just knew what it was and could confess it, then I would feel good. If I just could find it. So I was confessing everything. And it was kind of like, if I knew my secret, then of course I would confess it. And so like, Can I quote you? Because it was such a beautiful thing. You said, I feel like my whole life I've been keeping a secret from myself. That's such a cool thing to say. I feel like I've been keeping a secret from myself. And then when me and another person were like, well, what is it? What's your secret? Do you want to express it? You were like, well, if I knew what the secret was, I would tell you guys. But it's a mystery secret. Ha, dude, Mike. Thank God for you saying that phrase because like in, in, in between bouts of just purging, I had one of the biggest old belly laughs that echoed through the canyons at that comment. Like what a beautiful thing to say that you're like, guys, if I knew what my secret was, I would say it. The problem is it's a mystery secret. You Mike, that saved me. You saying that saved me temporarily. That was so beautiful. Thank you for that. I just love the term mystery secret now. It's been my favorite word because it's true that, cause I've thought about this a lot where it's like, you know, sometimes like exploring myself, sometimes I'm like, am I, am I gay? I'm like, well, no, if I were gay, I would clearly be gay. I'm like, I would be out front of the pride parade. I would just be out and proud. Yeah, you said that. You said, you said, listen, if my secret was that I'm, you're like, do you not think that I've thought of that? Like if my secret was that I'm gay, I would say out loud, I'm gay. I would be out. I would be like you said, I'd be on top of the float in the pride parade, like waving the flag. Like you, you'd be out now, right? Yeah. Or if I, you know, I've thought, okay, well, maybe. Cause you know, when I, when I am in the trip space, especially like I sense a big feminine presence in me. I'm like, well, you know, maybe I'm gendered and what non -binary or something. And I do, I mean, I'm getting in terms with my own feminine image, you know, but like when, when I'm, when it comes down to it, I like the outer masculine shell. I love it. I love it more now even than I did before. Like I love just, you know, like, and I like to flow. I like to dance. I like to get, you know, like, like, like, I like to express that. I guess I like that feminine, cause I felt that presence of her, but I like it in a masculine container. I just, that's how I feel. So it's like, what's, you know, and then I even shared with you that, and I'll share this on the podcast that I. I kissed a boy a couple of weeks ago and I was saving it to tell you on the podcast and you're like, fuck you, Mike, don't ever save that again. And that's true. We can get into that if we want to, but like, so I'll tell the story here. So I was, it was a few weeks ago. I went out with some friends and we went to this, kind of dance club slash bar thing and they, we walk in there having a pride night. And so I made a really fun little party that had going on, you know, people from all. flavors and everything were there. Right. And it was, you know, they had some really good music. and we were just like dancing and having a good time. And I was, I was pretty, pretty drunk. and this very flamboyant guy comes up to me and he's got the cutoffs and everything. And he speaks, you know, it's like, and he asked me. cutoffs and he speaks and everything. Well, he's got the, he's got the accent. Yeah. Ain't nothing wrong with saying that. Yeah. Yeah. know, that's the adjective. That's a, that's a term. And he comes up to me and he asked if I have any poppers. And I'm just like, I don't know. Is this, is this some sexual term that I don't know or what? So like, I don't know. And then what's a popper. And he's like, popper. You've never had a popper. I'm like, no, I've never had a popper. He's like, well, it's kind of like a thing. You pop open and you smell it and it gets you high for like, it's like really quick. It's like 15 seconds. I'm like, is it kind of like a whip it? Cause you know, me and whip it's and especially if someone's passing around whip it's I'm going to be doing a whip it. you love Whippets a lot. Like, like just, just so that we're, we haven't talked about this before. You like Whippets even more than I like Whippets and I love doing drugs. Yeah. And, but the thing about Whippets is I don't, so because I intentionally don't have them at home, I pretty much do them once a year when we go to a festival. Right. Right. Like I'm your, I'm your like soul whippet supplier. I think. Yeah. And every once in a while, like after we did something cool on a Friday night, people were passing it. You know, every once in a while I'll get in myself a situation where people are passing them around. I'm like, okay, of course I'll do it with it. So of course I'm like, yeah, dude, if you find a popper, I will do it with you. And his eyes kind of get wide and he's like, are you gay? And I'm like, no, I'm not gay. He's like, well, are you bi? I'm like, I don't know. He's like, well, what do you know? What do you mean you don't know if you're bi? I'm like, well, I don't know. I just, I'm, I would group Mormon and he's like, okay. And his eyes got even wider now. And he's like, yeah. He's like, well, have you ever kissed a, have you ever kissed a man? And I'm like, no, I've never kissed a man. which is not, I mean, I've maybe pecked, you know, but joking or like, you know, or like, but like, I've never like kissed a man. Right. and he's like, well, do you want to kiss me? And I was like, yeah, okay. I love that. I wish people could see the way you shrugged and the look on your face, which is just like, yeah, okay, let's do it. Let's kiss. You know, and he had some big juicy lips. Like, I kind of give him a look. I'm like, all right, we're going to do this the right way. So I kind of look at him, you know, I'm not going to like close my eyes or anything. I'm going to look at him and then I'm going to kind of close my eyes, leaned in and gave him a kiss. You know, there was some mouth movement and it was a few seconds. There was no tongue, but it was like, you know, good lip action for a few seconds. I kissed him. didn't like fucking it wasn't like it wasn't the way your your weird aunt kisses you on the lips like you fucking kissed him right it was a solid Mike kiss, you know, I'm like, yeah. and then pull away and he's like, how was that for you? And I was like, you know, the sensation was good. Such a funny answer. Like, well, yeah, lips are lips. I mean, that's kind of how it felt to me. It was kind of like, so it was both, I felt like it was both much more normal than I was expecting it to feel. Cause it was just kind of like I was kissing lips. And maybe also cause he didn't have a beard, you know, maybe it was a beard, it would have felt differently, but he didn't have a beard. So, and he had a very smooth face. So it just felt like I was kissing lips. And it was kind of okay. It was okay. Well, what a great description, man. That's kind of okay. Yeah. But you know, I don't know if that's just because it's around because I know I've had plenty of kisses with women who are my where I'm like, you know, Right, so the person matters. Heart's not parts type of thing, you know? Yeah. And so then I was thinking, you know, I was telling you this and the person who was out there with us. But like, but part of it is like, if I am attracted to men, I'm not really attracted to, like, I'm attracted to probably to like really manly men. Like I was, I brought up Jason Momoa. I brought up Cal Drogo from Game of Thrones. I'm like, maybe him. Like, you know, if I'm going to get, if I'm going to get with a man, I'm going to get with like someone who really is like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then I was like, well, shit, I think I want to be called Drogo. Like I want, like I was, I think I'm craving that carnal, like masculine, just unashamed, like I'll chop your head off if like you, you, you try to take something away from me, you know, I'll like, I'll just like ravage you like a savage beast kind of deal. And if that felt, I mean, that's what I think I was yelling and yelping. And it was just like, I want to get back to like just raw. It was how I was feeling with it and it felt so good to say that. Yeah. Yeah. that feel telling that story right now? I feel so good. This feels so good to tell this story. So if we could sort of volley it back over to me for a second so I can kind of catch up to now where you're at with that story. Is that cool? So... I've been all night feeling this sense of like, stop trying to get, like there's a deeper thing here when I'm, when we're talking about control and I'm talking about my control is really just me trying to feel the bucket of self love that I've maybe neglected. Like I'm having a tough time loving myself, you know? And. So I want to outsource it to everybody else. I want everybody else to love me. And meanwhile, you and the other person are talking, you're calling me Jesus. Like you're telling, you're saying that I'm Jesus. You're talking to each other that I'm Jesus. I'm over there like purging and I'm like, fucking, I am not Jesus. Stop like, please, you know, I'm like begging. like, we were like, we know, we know we're supposed to find Christ within ourselves and everything, but really it's Doug. Yeah, yeah, and it was complimentary for sure, but I was like miserable. I was like, don't please I'm not Jesus. I'm just Doug. And so you told that story. And I had such an interesting internal response to that story. I'm glad I spoke it out loud because I was, I've pictured us having that conversation before, you know? I've pictured you telling me that you maybe kissed a guy. And I've thought about how I wanted to be supportive and how I wanted to be there for you and how I wanted to wrap you up in a hug and say, man, I love you. That's a great part of you. Like, I just wanted to show support if that kind of conversation ever happened. Do you know what I mean? And it was so miserable that it was like the worst possible scenario in which I couldn't be supportive. And I told you that. I was like, I can't even like, I was like rooting you. I was like half -assed fist pump. I was like in the fetal position with my back to y 'all and I just fist pumped you. And then it was like, I was like, wait, when did this happen? And you're like, it was a few weeks ago. And I was like, bro, what? What do you mean it was a few weeks ago? Why am I just now hearing this story? Like, you're my best friend. Why am I just now hearing this story? And you were like, well, because I kind of wanted to get your reaction on the podcast. Like, I wanted to tell you, I wanted you to tell a story on the podcast. And I wanted to like, get your honor, like your. your raw, vulnerable reaction. And that's when I just went into like, fuck that podcast. Like, fuck this. Fuck this podcast, man. My, my, the reason I want to do the podcast, cause I want to talk to my, I want to talk to my friends. I want to talk to my best friend. I want to share these stories. I want to, I want to be there for one another. And man, it brought up some real, like, it married those two points that I was feeling. And this is gonna be a hard part. I hope it's okay that I say this part, Mike, but I was really like, so here I am desperate for love. And you know, we've had some opportunities as far as like growing the podcast and as far as like whatever, whatever with the podcast that I've kind of kicked against. And you know, I get real, You know, as far as like having people who listen to the podcast who come talk to me about the podcast, I'm a little standoffish. I'm a little, I'm not that, I'm not that great. I'm not that great when it comes to that because I'm re I realized that my relationship with the concept of a podcast or the, or the, or the concept of having people who like this, this podcast or love me is that I I think that I resent people who listen to this podcast because I resent them because of how desperately I want their love. You know what I mean? Like, because I want their love because I'm not giving it to myself and there's something deep inside of me that recognizes that and so therefore I resent them for giving me that love because I gotta figure out a way to give it to myself. And Mike is telling me the story about the first time he kissed a boy and what that meant for him. and what his experience was. And it was like just kind of meh. And it was just like, well, we'll see what happens. And it was like, dude, everything came crashing down for me during that, during that moment. I know that it was like dark at this point and we were under the stars and it was just gorgeous. Could see the Milky Way, could see all the constellations. You're, you're pointing out the constellations, telling them some stories about what they are. And I was just laying there like, I can't look, I can't look at the stars right now. I can't, I can't even see the lights. I don't even want to. Because I'm just like, I'm just like dealing with, I'm dealing with my core, I'm dealing with my core here. I'm dealing with my whole identity here. And that, and then the thing about Khal Drago, the person, as you were kind of describing that, the person that was out there with us, we're being, you know, protective of names, I think here, but she was like, well, Doug kind of looks like that. And that's when it came to this thing that I think was really important because, god damn it dude, I wanted to say cool things to you bro, I really did. But when she said that, and it became that thing of like, I don't know, like I love that you said, I don't know that it's, I want to fuck Kaldrogu. I think it's that I want to be that Dothraki king, right? I want to be that wild, free, man of the plains, shirtless, warrior, feasting, fucking, like that kind of thing, right? It was such a beautiful moment. with you just saying that. Yeah. I've said, I'm, I'm starting to growl just for you, from you saying that. Yeah. And I'm, and, and there I am like a fucking like pile of fresh wet shit. Like I can't do anything. I can't say yes. I can't say a profound thing. I can't say a cool thing. And I just, I'm like, dude, I'm done. I'm done trying to say that shit. I don't, I can't, I don't have any good things to say anymore. So anyway, that's, that's, that leads me back up to what happened when you told the story. I, I will say now, Mike, I love you. I'm, I'm. I'm so proud of you. I'm so proud to hear you tell that story. I think it's huge that you're telling that story on the podcast, like letting it out to the world. You're awesome. Thank you. Well, and to be fair, you did say I'm done saying cool shit, which is actually one of the coolest things I've ever heard. I want to put it on a t -shirt. Yeah, I got nothing cool to say anymore, man. I'm done saying cool shit. and I love that you said, fuck the podcast because what it did for me and is we had it. Damn. We had a good conversation about it. It went back to the, like the original conversation we had about starting the podcast when, and I, I realized a lot of things about myself that night. Cause we were playing around with my voice and I would try to go my voice down low and I tried to do a low thing and I would like, voice stuff was amazing. Do that high, I mean, do it all. Yeah, yeah, you can do it. Yeah. was playing with it. And then I go, hi, you know, I would just kind of go through the range of like everything with my voice. And I just realized how much I loved using my voice. And that's what came. I mean, the beginning of the podcast, I was doing this breath work session and had this like feeling that, I need to get my voice out there. And then I started, you know, right. Type in a blog. I'm like, well, that's never going to happen. I, I know this, I know I'm going to start typing a blog and then I'm going to get bored of it two days later. And then I'm talking with you that very night and we're sharing mushroom stories. And you're like, Mike, you have a podcast podcast voice. I could listen to you tell funny trip stories all day. And then I was doing that Kundalini Yoga Sadhana. I wake up the next morning. I'm in the glow of that. And you know, cause when you said that, you know, I was just like, okay, that's funny. But like, I could never do a podcast that sounds too scary. It sounds too like I'm not funny enough. I'm not clever enough. I'll, I freeze on camera. I freeze when you hit record on anything. And then the next morning I'm like, well, Doug, well, what if it's not just a podcast where we share funny trip stories? What if it's doing talking about everything we're doing to heal, like, you know, yoga, meditation, breath work, plant medicine, drugs, whatever we want to call it. marijuana cannabis. but I'm realizing at that moment it's because I'm like, sharing my voice isn't enough. That's not, I'm not good enough. I don't have a good enough voice. I don't have good enough shit to say. to just share my voice. So unless it's got some meaning attached to it, unless it's for some greater good, I can't share my voice. When really all I want to do is talk, I want to sing, I want to write. I love, I love, you know, I'm a white man who loves to talk. You know, I'll be like, come full circle. We're like, fuck the divine feminine. We're we're two wet guys with a podcast. We'll say whatever the hell we want, you know. That's not what we're saying, you know, just chillax. No, but it was clear to me that it's like, look, I love to talk and I love to express my, I love to express myself. I should say, I love to express my opinion. I love not just my opinions, but like my soul. I like to like express my feelings and express cool shit and talk to cool people. And, and, and you know what? I think I'm fucking good at it. and so for me, it's like that thing of, it's not. People like, it doesn't matter. People will hear whatever. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it changed the whole perspective for me of like, no, I just want to speak. And if it has meaning or not, I'm just going to speak it. Like I'm not going to try to always, but I can come in here and have a lesson for people or whatever. No, I'm just going to speak for my soul. Yeah. like it's like, fuck the moral of your story. Like, let's just chat it up. Like life's messy and weird. Like, like life is funny and doesn't resolve itself most of the time. You know what I mean? Like it's not a sitcom. It's just like, okay, well that just sort of like, okay, that's the end of that experience, you know, type of thing. Yeah. And kids, that is the time when the skeletons came to life. The bones are their money. Ha ha ha! But Doug, I see the parallel there though with like, you know, me wanting to say meaningful shit and you wanting to say cool shit. The thing is though, man, like you birthed like four songs that night. Well, so should we get to that part? it's like, I'm not, I can just fucking call it a night. Hopefully I can sleep. Wake up. So I, so I went down, into the, I went down into my, into the room and I was kind of rustling around in there and I saw a joint I had rolled earlier and I was like, I guess I better go outside and smoke a joint. I'll bet Mike would want to smoke this joint. You're 100 % right on that. So I came back out. Like people listen to her like, you're telling us you're the most miserable you've ever felt and you're going to go to bed and then just like, a shiny fresh joint. I'm going to take it outside. So I'm fine. I feel great. So, you know, that's mushrooms though. So I took the joint out there and I came out and, and I could even, I mean, you, you guys are, you were like, what is that Doug? Is that you? And I'm like, yeah. And you go. Do you have a joint? I'm like, that's what I came out here for. Like, you knew, you knew what I was up to. So thank God. Thank God for that fucking cannabis, marijuana, jazzy cigarette pot, weed, grass, whatever it was. Thank God for it. That shit brought me to life dog like that. So, so we smoked a joint and then I'm like, Hey, not kidding. I know we were going to do music tonight, but I'm out. Like I got to go to bed and you're like, you and the other person, you're like, okay, yeah, let's all go to bed. And we're kind of folding up the blankets and you go, but Doug, just one question for you. Do you want to do music? And I'm like, yeah, now that I said it, I kind of got a taste for it. Like I do want to go to music. Like just saying it out loud, like saying, Hey, I know we were going to do music, but I'm going to bed with maybe like, I kind of want to play music. And so we went into the, we went into the Airbnb people sleeping, you know, they're all out. And we're just like, well, we're going to play quiet. We did not play quiet music. was like, we're just going to keep it like groovy and jazzy. we did not keep it groovy and jab. Well, I guess we did keep it pretty groovy. We just got pretty funky with it, you know? And we didn't, I mean, I can't remember if we played any of our existing songs. Well, I guess we played a couple of our existing songs. Just to sort of like vibe. But then we just started, what the hell even happened? Then we just started playing like. the first one I walk in, because you walked in a little bit before me, I walk in and you're already strumming a tune that I'm like, what is this, Doug? And then you start strumming it some more. And I'm waiting for you. I get the drum and I'm starting like Disney. I'll play, I tried to play the drum kind of jazzy and soft. you on that drum was like a wonder to behold, but anyway, go ahead. You're good. Yeah, you're getting that drum down, dude. Yeah. just gets in. It's just like, like even just like sensually, like it feels like making love to the drum, you know, just kind of like little tap. It's like you're feeling the rhythm of it. It's interesting what medicine can open up with that, you know, the senses of it's not just like hitting and doing a certain rhythm. It's just like feeling the tension of the moment and expressing it through the drum. I should mention, I said everybody was asleep. You, me, and the person that was outside with us were in there and there was a person asleep on the floor in the ceremony space. Yeah. And that person woke up when we started playing music and has visions and just started telling us their visions. Right. So anyway. she, I mean, I guess I'm trying to be careful not to talk about people, but she's the most adorable person I've ever met in my life. like give me I can write an album in a week if I just have her around, you know, anyway, go so go ahead so, but then I'm waiting for you for, I'm like, words are coming through here. You know, like I'm waiting for you to do it. And you're like, Mike, can you, can you do me a favor? Can you sing this one? Here are the visuals I'm getting. I'm going through this dark forest. There's a cemetery on my left. There's the moon is out. I'm writing, there's a horse, there's a writer. There's a, you know, you start describing the scene and you're like, can you sing it? Yeah. here. Can you just please? And I, yeah, go. Sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. and then it goes to that, that's the beginning. And then it goes to this hopeful, like reef, the core. Yeah. Yeah. Triumphant. And I've never, I've never been. you sing for me? Like not not will you sing? I was like, will you sing as me, please? Because I can't right now. Yeah. And so all of a sudden lyrics were just coming through for me. I was talking about the moon. I was talking about going through the dark and this. And then all of a sudden when you hit that triumphant thing, I was like, but the stars will keep on shining no matter where I go. I was just like the words just were like pouring out and we were having a full song going on. I'm getting the chills just talking about that right now. That song is so sick. Yeah. And then, and then we went to the next part and then it became, and my star will keep on shining. Kind of like no matter what happens around me, my star is going to keep on shining. And, and then I'd make sure this part, you know, the woman there with, was getting the visions, talked about the visuals she was getting during that, song. yeah. And it was, it was about like a, I think it was a, was it a past life of yours or something, or just a visual you were, she was getting from, yeah, you as a woman waiting for her long lost love to return from the ocean. And he never came. So like Doug, that feels like a song. All of a sudden you had a, you had a rhythm and like, and the, the chord pattern. new chord progression, new thing going on. I was, dude, I was playing the, you know, that sublime lyric. I was playing the guitar like a motherfucking riot, right? Like I w I w I've never played the guitar the way I played the guitar that night. This the rhythms they were all different and then you would switch up the rhythm that you would switch up the beat would say the same but you would switch up the rhythm pattern mid song and as it brought it a whole different dimension to it and and then suddenly all of a sudden I'm singing these lyrics and the tunes coming through like I stare across the sea waiting for you desperately you know and then it was like turned into this like fun little back -and -forth thing and we're singing about waiting for a long less love and then we're singing about how but wait While I've been waiting for you, come on, I really haven't been waiting. I have a woman back in the back who's just ready for me to go and fuck her. starts with like, I've been long for you. So why won't you long for me? Like we're going into all this like boohoo and Mopi shit. And then at the end of yours is like, dude, you were like a lyricist, like extraordinary. Cause then at the end it's just like, all right, listen, little confession time here. I know I'm putting on the front that I'm moping around and waiting for you, but she back in the bed just waiting for me. You know what I mean? Like I was so sick dog. Yeah. Yeah. And then at the very end, it was like, I stare across the sea and you'll always have a piece of me kind of like this acknowledgement. They're like, yeah, all right. You'll still always have a piece of my heart. I just, I love the back and forth of all of that. good. So then that stopped and home girl had another vision, like had another vision, told us all about it. And there was like, I might be mixing it up as far as like chronology, but she's like, dude, you were channeling cast Stevens and there's white Buffalo medicine coming through. Like she was like saying all sorts of cool shit. So then I was like, I got another one. So I'm like, I'm like open fret then town to the. then capable on the fourth and now I'm on the first and like a new song, all different like fucking chord patterns and vibes. And then that one was coming through and you were, well, we were kind of both singing that. I mean, it just was like, it was like we were singing a song. We could, we were just, we're just trying to remember it. You know, didn't it feel that way? It was like, how's this one go again? You know what I mean? But it was brand new. It was interesting you mentioned the white Buffalo thing. I didn't even tell you about that. Holy shit. I'll mention their names because they've been on the podcast and Stephanie and Kelly in my dream queen sing. We were talking about, they were having white Buffalo imagery come up for them. They were talking about that. And you had sent me that song a week prior from the artists, white Buffalo. So I was like, wow, this is a weird synchronicity guys. And so I shared with them the white Buffalo thing. It brought it back to my attention because When Stephanie asked me how my weekend was, she said, how was your white buffalo weekend? the fuck? Are you kidding me? No way, dude. Hold up a second. She really said. Polo. I can show you the Marco Polo where she's like, come on, like you're holding down on us. You had a white Buffalo weekend and you're not even talking to us about it. So that's, that song is. way in hell the two people we're talking about have ever met, spoken or heard of each other. Nope. And you were playing white Buffalo music and I didn't share that with you. And I'm only now putting together all those pieces. Yeah. That's a white Buffalo song, man. The white Buffalo is there, whoever the white Buffalo is. But like, I mean, that's a whole, that's a whole like, yeah, mythology. like I know there's a musician called the white buffalo, but like white buffalo in Aboriginal culture is one of the most sacred and ancient gods. Yeah. Like the, the, the create like, damn dog. What? Yeah, man. I'll, I'll, I'll, I don't know if you can send Marco Polos, but I'll try to like send it to you. And she said that like, this is like, and I didn't tell her about the weekend. I didn't tell her about this woman saying that song had the white Buffalo energy or anything. Yeah. That's such a trip, right? So it was just three songs that night. Cause then we went to bed. Well, you sent, we, we, we sang a couple more songs. then we went to bed and the next morning it's like integration circle time and I was feeling bright -eyed and bushy-tailed. But as soon as we, as soon as we, I now, and God damn it, I was feeling bright-eyed and bushy -tailed and I was ready for integration circle. Cause I was ready to like, once again, I was ready to say, I was ready to say the profound shit I had learned, but it was like, We started integration circle and I was like, shit, really again? And I had to go outside and start purging again. While everybody's in there talking about their experience and their feelings, you know, I'm just like, peace out, I'm out. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's like maybe how energetic that was. I don't know, you know, like what else like physical but energetic. I don't know. But, I don't know either, that's kinda nuts. But you were out there for a while and you came back in, you're like, Mike, another song came through. I was out there. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Well, well I came in, well, yeah. So I was out there purging and I was, and a song was coming through. And so I had to, I came in and got my guitar and went back outside by myself and then came in and was like, bro, I got another song. I had lyrics for it and everything. Like it's what a weekend. What a freaking weekend. full fledged lyrics to it where the other ones were still trying to like, I mean, the lyrics are there and we're trying to, cause we didn't record any of those lyrics that night. So they've been coming back in pieces and you know, in some new, but like, but yeah, man. I mean, out there like with I'm not gonna sing the song, but it's a fucking dope song, dude. It's like it's got some cool little it's got like cool vibey sort of thing going to it, right? see a little bit of it or not? nah. I want it to be, I want to spring it on some people with some like, I want my guitar with me, you know what I mean? That's what I felt about the first one too. Like the second one is easy to kind of do without the guitar. But that first one, I need the triumphant thing. It's not gonna do it justice. So I, yeah, yeah. But can we, I know we're kind of going over time, but to cap off the weekend, we have to talk about our ketamine night. Okay, good. I was wondering if. So the next night when we're pretty strung out, we didn't sleep much the night before. So just to sort of maybe roll through, that afternoon had another sort of like just come apart. You and you were in there with me and a couple other people who were holding some space. Like I'm saying shit I've never even thought about, saying shit I've never even like said out loud, saying shit that's like deep, deep, deep personal, personal stuff to me. And just bawling. Like I don't normally have that experience, but I'm bawling like a... Dude, so I'm just cleared out at this point. I'm feeling light. I'm feeling very, I guess content would be a good word. I'm just like, wow, I'm just full. It's just like, okay, what a great weekend. I got what I came for, right? Yeah. But just to add to that real quick, because it was all around the theme. I'm not going to talk about the specifics of what you're talking about, but again, around this theme of trying to hold it all together, trying to control, right? And, yeah. hold everything together, my, my mom and dad will be okay. And my, my, my parents, everybody will love me and things won't be terrible. And, and there, and there's safety in that there's safety in me holding together that I learned at like, I guess we found out that we learned, I learned at eight years old, I guess. Right. And in order to hold it all together, there's this feeling I just got to give like, I like that early dream you had about like, people just eating you up like a cookie. You're giving out. Yeah. You're just like, and even it's like, it's not the big deal. I can do it. You know, I can do it. It's like, and how many of those accumulate or something. Just a very similar thing. We were both going through that. So I wanted to highlight that again. And that's, and dude, it was so beautiful. It was such a cool experience to see open up like that with it. So thank you for sharing. yeah, I'm not, shit was powerful. I don't even, you know, you notice I'm kind of glossing over it because it just was to me, that was probably the most, I just don't even know if I can get into it right now. You know what I mean? Maybe, maybe another time we can get into it on the podcast, but right now I can't. No, but I'll just say one of the cool things about being with like other witches and wizards is they know just what to do with that. Like they know just how to like, like hold space and clear energy and you know, people were saging you and stuff and like, and you, you were, it was a, it felt like a ceremonial purge and it was beautiful. Yeah. Man, a lot came out. A lot came out of me this weekend. That was pretty cool. thought we were done. We played a lot of music that night. We're going to bed kind of late. Hehehehehe And I get in the bedroom maybe like 15 minutes after you or so. And unbeknownst to you, I have done. Two Rails Academy. Well, I walk in and you snored some through the little, like we have these little ketamine sprays and you're like, you want some? And you look at me with these wild, crazy eyes. I'm like, yeah, I'll catch up. And you're like, well, if you want to catch up. gonna need to get some ketamine in you. The spray's not going to cut it. And I was a little terrified of you, man. You were looking at me, these, they were crazy high. Well, I was shirtless and growling and grunting like a caveman. I had wild eyes. I couldn't see anything. I couldn't put together my words. Like you're giving me credit for saying better words than I even said to you. Right. you came in and I was just like, you know, sure. were trying to do some directions on how to like, you had this rose water thing or something and you were trying to, and I'm doing it wrong. You're like, no, Mike, do this. And you were kind of just kept getting me, which was good. I wanted to do the, like the ritual right. But like, it was like, it felt like the Bishop corrected me on like, I kept fumbling the words of the sacrament prayer. don't even remember that part. I'm trying to flick it into the fire. I'm trying to just do it and then you know, it's saying the words right. You're like, no Mike, no, the words matter. It's a spell. It's a spell and the words matter, which is true, but it just felt like it was like, I missed like, God, whatever, or the sacrament prayer, I missed like a couple of words. fault. Yeah, exactly, dude. shit, bro. I'm really. I'm thinking, I just need to get this ketamine in me because I've got to catch the fuck up. Cause like, I just can't handle Doug right now. But meanwhile, I'm relying on you because I'm not good at cutting the lines or doing any of the things. So I'm relying on you on measuring it all out and stuff. And you measure out seven huge lines of ketamine. And I'm like, no, we are not doing this. Yeah, that was good of you to do that. And so I skipped it all back up and stuff. So we had some reasonable lines and we hit it. And that night got fucking wild. a wild night, bro. I was like, I don't know time and space. And then all that fear was coming up with me again. I'm feeling like, you know, that same fear is something because I'm like, I'm doing drugs. I'm out here like, and you know, I got kids at home and I'm, you know. Yeah. And like job and this, and I'm just like, this is it. And it's like, my whole life's going to hell and shit. and then, there was a moment when it was like, you started putting on some of our songs that we had recorded, not that night, but the night before. Well, one that was really weird. Well, no, first you pulled up our TikTok and I was like, that was a trip. And then, and then you pull up our songs and I was like, but for some reason it snapped me back because then I was like, okay, I'm just feeling fear. Don't buy it. Don't buy the bullshit. Don't buy the stories. Fill the fear. You know, and then, and then. It was the new songs that I put on. You had recorded them on your phone and we had that Bluetooth speaker and so it was these new songs that we just told all the stories about. We were listening to those. that's right. Because we had, because we'd recreate, we'd put, that's right. There was a new song. Yeah, we saw, that's right. I was getting the timeline mixed up on, cause we, I'm like, we hadn't recorded what we had. Cause the next morning we're like, Hey, let's try to remember as much as we can from these songs. And so we've, and so we're listening to these new songs and they are like a vibe. They're like, it's deep. I'm like, this is a whole new level of music vibe for us, Doug. It was, and it is like now completely soberly where I'm saying it is a, it's a, we've plumbed another depth of music for you and I and dude, we're in there and it's like pitch dark. We got a few candles lit, you know, cause I was like, get you to do the fucking spells. And so we've got like candles lit and it's like, we're in a cave, but there's a stage. Like there was a whole fucking thing. You kept saying, man, I'm having a tough time. Like this is kind of mind bending, like reality is bending for it. You kept saying reality is. bending for me a little bit. And I'm like, it's fine. My crawl around on the ground. Look at this. I'm crawling around on the ground. you're like, Mike, you're on stage, be a panther. And I was like, how's it even a pan? like fucking that microphone you're like yeah like like a puma yeah Yeah. And then I felt like a snake. And then like, we both have these like dragon eggs and dragon, like things for our altar. And I'm like, Doug, put on your dragon. I have this dragon going on. And I feel like now I'm a dragon and I'm moving and I'm like singing along to the songs and we're like shirtless and moving and like, just like cavemen on stage. But then it was getting more silky. It was like, now I'm a dragon on stage. You were like, dude, you were tripping, you were like, the floor's wet. The carpet felt so wet. Carpets dirty and wet. I'm like, yeah, it's fine. It's a cave floor. I mean, we were in the, it felt like we were just in the grime and the muck and then like birthing out of it and this like way. And then like, I mean, I slept with that dragon on my chest because I was like, I was just one. The importance like dope, but I know you're talking about how it was like, I was a little much and it was a little bit like, you know, you couldn't have, you were like, all right, Doug, just chill out a little bit here. Like this is kind of, this is kind of a little much, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But I felt like that night was super important because to clarify, if everybody's worrying, no, Mike does not have this thing where I'm where he thinks I'm much or I mean, maybe he does, but like we, we had a great time is what I'm trying to say. Right. It ended up being made a good time. But I think that night was so important. best time. That was like, it was cathartic, it was fun, it was weird, it was everything a trip should be. Well, that's why it was so important to me because it was another version of release because I had spent a lot of time doing the heavy work, like the heavy release stuff for my just like the self stuff the whole time. And this was a release and it was like tapping into primitive like we were fucking animals in there to the point where the people next morning were like, what were you guys playing music at 2 30 in the morning last night? We were like, no, we're just not getting me. And one of them was like, I heard you play music, so I almost knocked in and joined you. Like you would have walked in. glad that you did not walk in on that. Yeah. I think we would have been, I think we would have scarred this person for life. will discard them. Yeah. No, but what was good for me, Doug, with that is that we had the time of our lives and I was realizing how much I outsource my Doug. I mean, that was part of my whole weekend is like, I project a lot of things onto you that I need to own in myself. And part of that it's like, I'm, I'm used to you holding space and taking care of me in a trip scene. And this was one where at first it kind of threw me off because Doug was crazy wild caveman Doug. Yeah. And I had, I had, I had so much more fun with crazy wild caveman Doug than I would have with him. He'd be like, are you okay? Mike, are you okay? Do you need to lay down? Do you need this? You know, you were caring for me. No, like once, once I got over the initial shock of like, this is new and this is weird. a wild animal in this bedroom. Like there's a beast, right? Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I, yeah. Tripping with beast caveman Doug is any day of the week with that. cool because our, our one homie was like, cause they used to call me hurricane Doug, you know, cause like when I would get real in the early days, I'd get real drunk and I was like, I was hard to, I was hard to handle. Right. Like I was like, anything goes, like I'm standing on the, I don't care. I'm standing on the table in Denny's and taking my shirt off and yelling at everybody. Right. Like hurricane, but the, so our one homie was like, it sounds like it was like hurricane Doug, but a different version of hurricane Doug. Like. Cause I was Mike, I was not, I was not caretaker Doug in that, that night. This whole weekend, I wasn't able to be caretaker. Well, I guess I still was in a lot of ways as far as like food and fire and that type of stuff. Like, but yeah, I was not available. I was not available to you that night. I was like. And if it's any reflection about like, bring more of that, bring more of that, less caretaking, bring that, Doug. you know, but it's, it's, I gotta get past it a little bit. Cause it's like, even just now talking about it, hearing you say like, it was much, it was a bit much and it was like kind of a little bit scary, like whatever. It's like, yeah, I don't want to be that. I don't want, I don't want you to feel that way about me, but I'm like, well, fuck too bad Mike. Sometimes I'm going to be that way. And so that's the thing, that's my shit. You know what I mean? And it is because once I got over the, the initial, like. Difference of it, it was different. It was like, hell yeah. Let's hell yeah, man. my gosh. I just, I, it was one of my funnest first scary and not just, it wasn't you the very beginning that that was throwing me off, but then it was just the fear of. The same fear I was having earlier. So then I was dealing with that fear and what is reality and, am I just going to become a druggy and shit? And, and no, I went back to normal life and work today. Like I've never with more vigor than I've ever done it before. Cause we had a crazy, Stephanie said something to me today and I forgot what she called it. She was like a crazy, shit. I wish I remember the word, but we had a container to unleash our crazy and The Dionysian, so the Dionysian is, you know, Dionysus is the god of wine and madness and ecstasy. Humans are used to having ritualistic containers for this expression of the crazy, to get out our crazy, to get out our wild. We used to do, and we have not as many intents, we don't have the intentional ones. We have like sporting events and concerts and festivals where people do that. But we used to have like ritualistic. containers for people just to go fucking crazy. Yeah. And that's what we had. And it felt, and so I come back feeling so much more free. And I think that's part of what I'm realizing is like getting back to maybe this is just human, not necessarily masculinity, but getting it back to the, okay, if I'm feeling a certain way, instead of trying to noodle it out and figure it out, just go howl at the moon, go fucking go wild, go pound my chest, go be weird and like do weird. moves that go crawl like go crawl on the floor like a panther for a while. Go beat my drum for a while. And then, you know, maybe then I was like, yeah, I don't even know what I was worried about anymore. Yeah, dude, it's like it's like we're bringing. I feel like I've got I feel freedom is like a new is like a good word you just use. It's like I'm. Like I got I'm I'm I think we're going to be a little more wild and I think we're going to be a little more free and I think we're going to say less cool shit on the podcast and less profound show on the podcast, and I think we're going to stop doing this for you all and we're going to start doing it for ourselves like I'm doing it for me. Like I'm doing this for me now. You know what I mean? So. selfishly doing this for me. And if we lose all the listeners because I don't care. I know the episodes I want to listen back to and the ones I don't. And you know what I mean? And so if I like it, someone else will too.