What even are we anymore, Jesus? w/ Suzy Baker (#179)

We welcome back special guest Suzy Baker as we breakdown topics such as faith, skepticism, spirituality, patriotism and our relationship to Jesus as we explore questions such as:

• In what ways can skepticism and spirituality coexist?
• How can we redefine our relationship with religious figures like Jesus?
• What role does community and cultural identity play in shaping personal beliefs and experiences?
• How do we navigate the balance between maintaining tradition and embracing new perspectives?

Suzy Baker is the co-founder of the Psychedelic Assembly, the first brick and mortar psychedelic library, social club and event space located in the heart of New York City, Suzy curates social connection and platforms an impressive array of voices within the psychedelic space.

She's the co-founder of My Purple Lady, a new company developing plant-based mood enhancing products. She's also the head of community engagement for the psychedelic comedy tour 'A Better Trip', through which she is expanding The Psychedelic Assembly with regional events.


The Psychedelic Assembly

The Psychedelic Assembly strives to bring about positive change by uniting the transformative potential of psychedelics with the unfailing power of human connection. Our vision is further advanced through The Athenaeum, a physical space that serves as a hub for collaboration, education, and connection surrounding psychedelics in Midtown Manhattan.

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Transcript

0:57

It's funny because we're a little bit, we got to probably figure out if we can get the energy up a little bit. The three of us have just been kind of squinty -eyed staring at each other since we got on the recording. like, hey friends, good morning. You know what, maybe this will help boost the energy. Suzy, thank you for coming back, by the way. We're joined by Suzy Baker on this episode. having me. Super excited to be here. And anytime I see your name, I have to confess. Have you guys ever seen Hunt for the Wilderpeople? Yes. Is there a Suzy Baker? no, there's a Ricky Baker, but they sing a Ricky Baker song. And it's like, Ricky Baker. So anytime I see your name, it's like, Susie Baker. Susie Baker. Susie Baker. Susie Baker. Do a good job on the energy levels. You just... Mike saved the day. just do that in terms of like Suzy Baker. Suzy Baker. Yeah. Anyway, welcome back, Suzy. Thank you. And thanks for the song. My pleasure. the song, Mike. That's gonna be my head now. You of the world are you in now, Susie? Are you back in New York? I know I'm not in New York. I'm in the middle of our country. I'm in Wisconsin. Zoom in smaller. La Crosse, Wisconsin. Zoom in even smaller. Onalaska, Wisconsin. Shane's hometown, yeah. Hanalaska? Is that the name of the word you just said? That's the word I said. That's the name of the town. Yep. About 5 ,000 people, I think, in this small town. Yeah, it's where Shane grew up. So we had like a big Fourth of July family party here. Mm -hmm. USA. 4th of July parade and celebration if I've ever heard of one. and fireworks injuries, yes, all of the above, yeah. Sorry, go ahead. is just everyone know everyone. yeah, everyone knows everyone and knows everything about everyone. Yes. yeah, it's very real here. Yeah, it was funny because I was in Europe for like three weeks and then flew back to New York, had an event at Psychedelic Assembly. So I was only in New York for like three days and then flew here for the big Fourth of July party. And so it's just, it's funny bouncing all over the world, like seeing different cultures. I'm like, this is, this is a culture, like after being in Europe and experiencing that culture and then coming here and this culture, I'm like, wow, wow. This is a culture though. Definitely. a culture. I really enjoyed my 4th of July this year. It's funny because I've kind of allowed myself to give in to sort of like the in the past, like, I don't know, 4th of July. I just don't know how I feel about what Americans are doing to one another and what it means to be an American and what we're doing in foreign countries and our presence there. I've always been kind of like, I don't know, a little dubious of getting too into the 4th of July or getting too into like, you know, standing up and singing, we'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way, you know, all that kind of stuff, like getting my Toba Keith on and all that. But like this year I was like, I was like, fuck it, I'm proud to be an American. I like the freedoms I enjoy. I think that patriotism means something a little bit different to me than it does to... You know, Toby Keith, like I don't, I don't, I don't know that I think that maybe as part of the cool, the cool nature of what we're trying to do around here is, is, you know, Toby Keith can say that the, you know, uncle Sam put somebody's name on the top of his list and the Statue of Liberty starts shaking her fist, you know, and I might not agree with all that, but I don't know, man. I do agree with the melting pot and the idea that people are kind of free to just live whatever version of kind of version of. themselves that they can and I know that I know sometimes it feels like those freedoms are under attack from one side or the other as far as like politically and stuff like that but I don't know I don't see that much other than the fact of like yeah people are just kind of free to be assholes and be weird and and be be cool so I don't know I got into the 4th of July this year that's what I'm trying to say I was like I was like parade I wore a full-on fucking Fourth of July outfit. Like I looked like I was going to a pool party in the Hamptons type of thing. You know, it was like matching shorts and button up shirt top. That was like all patriotic and like fireworks and shit on it. I feel good. I feel good. It's a good Fourth of July for me this year. Good, good. You know what, Doug? It kind of reminds me of like my relationship with Christmas in a way of where, you know, I left the church and it's kind of like, well, now I don't, I don't believe in Christ anymore. but then it's like, I don't know when you started to realize that maybe none of this shit matters. Maybe everything can matter for what it, what it is. Right. And just like lean into the. Lean in, you know, when you're, when it's 4th of July, just lean in, you know, get out the glow sticks, the, the, the pop, the poppets, the whatever the. I'm sorry. didn't have glow sticks. Next year, that's a goal of mine. I'm gonna have, yeah, glow, is glow sticks a thing? That's like raver meets 4th of July. I love that. I want that next year. Yeah, hell yeah, I'm doing that next year. Yeah. Angeles, we can't get the fireworks, so we have to like, you know, do. Well, I guess we could. Everyone lights off fireworks. I mean, I guess if you, if you look across like LA is actually kind of cool sometimes on the 4th of July, because if you look across the valley, everyone's just lighting off all these illegal fireworks everywhere. And it's quite the show, but I don't know where they get them. I saw my friend's story, she's in LA and she was perched up somewhere and I was like, look at y 'all, renegade. Hell yeah, it looked cool. I don't... didn't have a hot dog. I had a hot dog yesterday at the world's largest water park. That's where I was yesterday. what's the world's largest water park? Noah's Ark, actually, is what it's called. Hold on a second. What? What the fuck is going on here? Yes, there is a I don't know if it's like a I don't really understand it, but it's called the Wisconsin Dells and it's in the middle of Wisconsin and it's like a little town that is made up of water parks and theme parks, I believe. So for people who live in middle America, nothing else to do. They've built these actually like pretty impressive water park. I haven't been to a water park since. Like I was thinking about it yesterday, I'm like, when was the last time I, I don't even remember when I was at a water park. Like I remember my middle school water park that I'd go to, you know, every summer. But like as an adult, I'm like, when, why? Yeah, but I was out there yesterday and I ate a hot dog, chili dog actually. At the water park, I know. Well, food was limited, Doug, food was limited. You can't starve out there on the slides. I am, whatever you are interpreting my reaction, I just want to clarify that I am in deep amazement and awe. Like, there is nothing, like, I'm just, sorry, Suzy, but the image of Suzy, waterpark, chili dog, I'm just like, fuck yeah, but like, I want to stand up and like sing the national anthem. Like, I'm like, fuck yeah, America. It was very, it was very, fuck yeah, America. Mm -hmm. Yeah. so good. So is there like a big, I mean, we don't have to go too far down this road, but I want to, I'm just curious, is there like a big Noah's Ark in the Noah's Ark? Noah's Ark? I don't think there were any actual biblical references like in the architecture of the water park, but shout out in the name. No, I don't believe there. Maybe in like the kids section, we were there with kids. Maybe there was like a ship or something, but I don't think so. just like animal, like cartoon animal themed things probably would be the way to go, right? It's like, go down the elephant slide. Yeah. yeah, now that you say it, there were little like statues, like these little like cheesy, corny looking like plastic kangaroos just like scattered around the park, which was confusing to me until now. So thank you, Doug. You just really full circled that for me. Cause I was like, why? What's up with all the little like critters? They're cute, but it was Noah's Ark. Yeah, it's all of Noah's. It's all the... Wow. I'm liking the reclaiming holidays thing. Mike, it's funny, you and I, when we were hanging out, you started, I don't know if you remember, yeah, you probably remember that you were singing a bunch of songs from the Forgotten Carols at my house. So, Suzy, Mike flew into town a couple of weeks ago, and so I went to pick him up at the airport, it's like 10 o 'clock at night, 10, 15. big old crackling rainstorm. It's awesome. And Mike had texted me from his layover and he's like, heads up, I'm really drunk. Like that's what he like. That's the text he sends me. And so I show up to, yeah, I show up to the airport. Mike can't see his, like Mike can't see. Mike walks right towards my car and I'm like waving and he's just like looking around. He can't figure it out. So I get out. So Mike's so we've established that Mike is shit face, drive him home, get to my house. He and I are kind of doing the thing, chat it up, kind of what we're doing right here, just kind of warming up the old, you know, vocal course to see what the real conversation is going to be about. And suddenly we get start talking about some of these fucking forgotten carols like the Michael McLean, the forgotten carols musical. And Mike's like, what was that one? There's that one about the shepherds, but no, I'm thinking about the one about the innkeeper. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. The one about the innkeeper. Mike's like, no, it goes like this. And then he sings the whole song, sings the whole song in like a really good voice. Yeah. Like really like in that like choir voice, he sings the entire song about the, about the innkeeper feeling shame and guilt because he turned away this pregnant lady and her husband and that he sent them to the barn. And now he can hear the soft. soft cries of a newborn baby and like all that kind of stuff. And we started laughing because based on, based on the stories that we had to sing about and learn about growing up, that barn was getting pretty rowdy. Like you've got, you got a bunch of shepherds over there trying to worship and get their, get their thing in and they got, they're bringing all their animals in and there's angels proclaiming that this is the son of God. There's a little fucking homeless kid in the corner just banging away to drum like, I want to honor the Christ child with my drum solo. It's like the baby's sleeping little drummer boy. Shut the fuck up anyway. Lake City drum circle insert. It's actually just a drum circle. We've been like worshiping a drum circle all these years. they're like, bro, we opened up a portal. I wouldn't be surprised if the son of God came through this portal. And that's like the whole origin story of Jesus being born in a barn was a bunch of fucking hippies sitting around like working out their trauma. Bro, that was a fucking portal. That's like, that's like we gave birth to God. I mean, good thing there was no room in the inn. They had to go to the barn. But that it was we were also talking that night, Doug. Isn't it such a Mormon thing to even make the innkeeper feel super guilty of just like, hey, I'm you know, this just this innkeeper like, I'm sorry, there's just no room in my inn. How is he supposed to know that it's the son of God or anything? Just like, guys, I'm sorry, there's just no room. What am I supposed to do? Kick out someone who's already sleeping? Like, go find someplace else. you guys are late. You think you're the only people that are trying to get in town to pay this fucking tax? Like this is our busy season. It's tax season. Like they are. You are all here, you know? He's like, the glory days are back. But I turned away the Christ child and now I'll never forgive myself. And I'm the innkeeper from this fucking song. Nailed it. Thank you. like how powerful, so cliche, but like how powerful shame as a mechanism is. It's like, okay, great. Let's insert that into every character into the story, into every moment in this history. Like let's move it back to shame, keep everyone wrapped up in this bullshit. Everything can be tied. So you can tie everything to shame so that you can get your hooks into your followers, right? If you can make your followers recognize themselves in every form of a story that leads to the main character having shame, it's like, well, there's no hiding from my shame. And that's the thing that dictates all of my actions as someone who's trying to be a good. you know, disciple, a good follower of the tenets of the religion. I'm like, well, God, what other ways am I failing? What other ways can I recognize in myself that I'm not living up to my Christ -like potential? And it's just like, that's a bottomless well. Like, you can plumb that forever and never get to the bottom. Yeah, yeah. I was thinking about this exact thing actually in Paris when I was in Paris at the, have you guys been to, have you been to Paris, either of you? No. to Paris, I did. But I went for work, so I had like the weekend to explore. But I did, I learned to... is it, was it on the top of like a hill? Yeah. Yeah, I did. Yeah. You went to that one, yeah. I loved that one and I went in. Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I went in and like was having this whole Jesus moment because I'm like, it's just so interesting, you know, like, I'm sure you guys experience it. You know, it's like we have such a complex relationship with Jesus or I feel like I do, you know? And so like going into this like epic, epic monument that's completely dedicated to this figure. And it's like, how do I now, what's my relationship here? Like what's our vibe now? You know, like. Yeah, exactly. What are we? Totally. Because like, I still, there's something. Mm -hmm, yeah, but I was like, you know, I wanted to like, I wanted to dig into that. So I like went to the very front. I'm like, I'm gonna have my moment here. And I was noticing, the thing, it's the shame thing, the thing I was noticing was like all of his, whatever, I guess it's like from the Bible, but just things that he said, like about this cathedral in particular, there was a lot of messaging about like men turning their hearts to him and kind of like this whole thing which, I mean, it's been so long since I've read the Bible. I should actually do it again. It'd be interesting. And I was thinking about that. What is that? Why was Jesus such an asshole to everyone who didn't like it? I'm just thinking about it. And I'm like, what? So confused and sitting there. And then after a while, I was thinking from my Buddhist lens now, the perspective, it's like, wait, but that's just the voice in my head. telling me this story, you know, that like Jesus is shaming. It's actually like me just shaming myself. And then like when you dig down deep enough, it's like it's just coming from our own self at this point or at any point. You know what I mean? It's like your own voice that you're listening to telling you these stories. Granted, like these stories are ancient and are really, really hard to reckon with. You know, I'm not just saying like, it's just a voice in your head. Like. This is intense stuff, you know, but like for me, I was like, once I like scratch far enough, I'm like, it's just like myself saying that. So whether that be like Jesus or the boot or whoever, like maybe the messaging is like, yeah, ask yourself where that voice is coming from. And also you don't have to listen to it and you can just watch it and say like, that's an interesting story that came from. my childhood religion that came from the country of origin, you know, like it's kind of once you like dig deep enough, you know, it's like, it's just coming from your own self. But obviously we're a product of like our environments and everything, but it was not the experience I was expecting in the Sacred Heart, but it was really cool. I actually like had a, I had a really nice moment. And so Jesus and I are cool again. We're good. Jesus. I'm thinking of it like, I mean, you know, growing up Mormon, like I'm actually loving that we're talking about this because I'm just realizing how significant for the first 33 years of my life, how significant this relationship was, whether, you know, an imaginal figure or a spiritual figure or an archetype or whatever you want to, however you want to define Jesus, it was a significant relationship to me.-hmm. And then it's like, I even had, we had this Cauchyck record on a reader on the podcast before, and I went to go see her and do a personal reading. And as part of the reading, she was like, you need to change your relationship with Jesus. He's calling to you and you need to like, you need to get right with him. And, you know, I mean, we can talk about this too, because I find the Cauchyck record readings fun and interesting and insightful and sometimes pretty spot on, but yet I still have that skepticism of like, but you know, what is this really? But I think, I don't know. skepticism? Like, look at our lives, you know? Like, we have to have that skepticism. in fact, you know, I was reading this book, Cosmos and Psyche, with Richard Tarnas. It's an astrology book. And he starts with that. He's like, look, that skepticism. When you engage with the cosmos, when you engage with, the mystery of God or source or the divine, or just the mystery of like, we wake up and like, what the fuck are we doing here? It's not that like doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith kind of deal. It's like you can have both skepticism and then also be open to the mystery to be surprised. It's like you can, it's possible to hold both simultaneously. I don't think you would have to like, I don't think it has to be either or. Yeah, I don't think it should be. And like, especially how we were raised, like, I don't know how you guys feel, but it's like when you've been burned so badly, like you have to be skeptical. Like, come on, bro. Like if someone's telling you that something is this way, it's like, sorry, like I'm going to have to be a bit skeptical. Like people told me that my whole life and like it really burned me at the end of the day. Like we're good. but also like, you know, like dedicated a lot of my time, a lot of my energy to something that I wasn't skeptical enough or whatever. I mean, you can't change the past, but like, you know what I mean? It's like, we have to be, we have to be. Yeah. Overly. I mean, I'm, I, there are, I can think of a few examples where I've been going down that path where someone wants to try to get me to believe their, you know, their visions or revelations or their fucking whatever, you know, type of thing. And I'm just like, not, not happening for me, dog. Like you do your thing and have the time of your life, but I, you, you can be a Snake Charm, I mean, Akashic Records is a good one. Like, you know, Tarot, like anything, anything that like, it's like people want to do a thing and they want me to give a shit about it. It's like, it's not on my radar at all because, because I got burned by faith. Like faith is the, man, faith is a weird topic when you, lately it's funny that we're talking about this, Susie, because before you jumped on, Mike and I were just kind of shooting the breeze about like, well, what do you want to talk about today? And I told Mike, like, I don't know how we're going to, work this in, but like I've been thinking about the concept of faith for the last month and a half, two months of just like trying to wrap my head around. Like I felt like for 30 years of my life, I felt like I was an expert on defining faith and not only using like faith as a definition of itself, you know, it's kind of a weird like circular reasoning type of thing, but also like Walking through like the legit like the logical aspect of faith like like the science mind wanted to be well Here's how faith sort of manifests itself and and here's how there's a proven method to test faith and and all that kind of thing and it was all horse shit like faith is a fucked up concept especially in the way that sorry Mike's this Mike's cracking me up where he's just like His screen will appear. He's sitting in a different spot and then it'll go black and then he'll, he'll, there we are. There's Mike. It's just making me laugh, dude. Because, boy, I'm going to try to say some things here and see what y 'all are feeling about it. But stop me if I go too long and then just interject and jump in. You know what I'm saying? Because, Susie, to your point about the voice in our head, I think our gods have to have a certain, like a real important aspect of our gods in order for us to believe in them is that they've got to be kind of like us. I need them to be like me. The voice of Jesus has to be the voice in my head that I want Jesus to be. I've used this example before, but I'll use a couple more. Like, if there's like a... a movie or a video or a dramatic reading about the story of Jesus. And when Jesus talks, he talks in that stereotypical sort of flamboyant gay voice. Suddenly a lot of Christians are going to be like, whoa, blasphemy and blah blah blah. It's terrible. I don't believe in. Or if Jesus speaks with like he's like in the play or in the drama or whatever, he's speaking English, but he's speaking it with like a real heavy Israeli accent, right? Like he's like, think like the, someone you know, like this would be like a real stereotype, but like New York City cab driver, you get in there and speaks with that kind of accent. Like if Jesus is saying the stuff about loving your neighbor and, you know, if he's doing the sermon on the Mount, but it's not in this like perfect addiction of like, the kings, the queens English and like the perfect accent that I want him and that kind of like deep God like voice. If it's not that suddenly my suddenly my, my, my image of Jesus is being challenged. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no, you, you, you, you are misrepresenting my God. My God is very different. He's got a deep booming voice and it's kind of like a non regional, you know, dialect and he's I don't know. Does that make any sense to what I'm trying to say here? Like how our God's sound in our minds matters a lot. And I kind of, Mike, we've talked about doing this. I kind of want to do a reading of the New Testament where we just use different voices for different characters that really like makes them seem quite different than they are in the traditional reading or telling of it. Like the Sunday school. reading of the New Testament. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. They're like validation for everybody else that the church is true. Like that's what that's what that thing about the pressure we're putting on that black family. It's like, check out. I've got a black friend there. Go to church with me. It's like, God, bullshit, bro. Stop your shit. you Yeah, really, Jesus? old blue eyed Del Parsons you talking about? Yeah. Man, Jesus is fucking handsome. You guys don't know how good looking Jesus is? Anyway. Yeah, my high school boyfriend who was not Mormon, he'd always call, we had a picture of Jesus. You guys would recognize it, but he would always call it Russell Crow Jesus. He's like, the back with the Russell Crow Jesus in the baker's house. He's like. I just like the idea of like the, I like the idea of some of those like Jesus portraits where it's like, Jesus is just like, he came to this artist and he's like sitting for the portrait, you know, it's like Jesus just sitting there. What do you think? Red robe? Do you guys like the red robe or should we mix it up a little bit? Do you guys want me to just be all in white? I am the resurrected Christ. Should I, maybe the red robe, cause there's a lot of symbolism to the red robe. Do you guys cool with the red robes? Like, yeah, Jesus just, now how do you want me to do like a smile? Do you want me to like have Mona Lisa kind of thing, mysterious, loving? Do you want me to look into the middle distance a little bit and just sort of like have a, like almost have like a real like profound look on my face? Like, what are you feeling? Like I like the idea of Jesus wanting to have some creative control about the image that the artists are making for him. Yeah, here's my look. Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like the the image and I don't know, I kind of think of everything these days in the lens of like, what's helpful for me sort of. And so like, I don't know, when thinking about like the image and the voice of, of Christ or any of these like, you know, figures or myths or symbols or however you want to like interpret them. It's like for me what's helpful is just like, yeah, it just seems like the Jesus thing is like another opportunity to sort of dissolve ego shit because obviously it's like you said, Doug, it's like the voice in our head, it's what we're comfortable with, which is connected back to ego. It's just like the thing that we know, the thing that's familiar, the thing that's comfortable that we don't wanna expand out of, that we don't wanna kind of push those boundaries. You know, and it's interesting how that like, that even like seeps into these. Of course it does, you know, that's like the whole issue with religion is like our egos are seeping in to kind of the utilitarian part of these religions and making them just awful, right? Like if we removed our desire from what we wanted Jesus to be or what made us comfortable. with Jesus, you know, it would be like, he's whatever. He is Black Jesus. He is Russell Crow Jesus. He is Mother Mary. He's all of it. You know what I mean? But that's really hard for humans to do, which it's hard for me to do. So like, I totally get it. I don't know. Yeah. no.