The Secret Wives of Mormon Lives (#185)

In this episode, Doug and Mike explore the dangers of taking things literally and how that impacts both religion and science. They also dive into the mysteries of the universe, share their thoughts on the recent presidential debate, and reflect on the cultural phenomena of The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives.

Key topics include:

• The Problem with Literalism: How taking things too literally, whether in religion or science, limits our ability to engage with deeper truths and mysteries.
• The Nature of the Universe: Mike reflects on the concept of an ensouled universe and the ways we engage with it—whether through science or personal experience.
• Presidential Debate Commentary: A humorous and critical look at the recent debate, touching on the absurdity of some of the comments made and the public's reaction.
• The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives: An analysis of the show through the lens of Mormon culture, the Madonna-whore complex, and how the pressure of perfection plays out in the lives of its participants.
• Scarcity vs. Abundance: How Mormonism and capitalism create competition and scarcity mindsets, and why sharing and community might be the antidote.

Join Doug and Mike for an insightful and entertaining discussion that zigzags through thought-provoking ideas and cultural critiques.

Transcript

0:00

It's funny though because I had a whole thing, because I didn't know if we were gonna record or if it was gonna be the live and recording and so I was like, you know, because those lives are funny how you just have to like, kind of just sit there for a minute and it's like awkward, right? There's like an awkwardness to it. Is there not? Am I crazy? No, there is. I'm trying to work with the lives to get past that awkwardness. Yeah, you're better at it than I am. No, I'm not though. Cause like, that's what I was saying. I was even chatting with a friend today and we were talking about like, cause it's this thing, it goes back to that festival we were at with Eric. The first time, you know, we, we did mushrooms, like it was this, and this, the Spider-Man thing, man. It's this thing versus, which is the thing versus. Am I performing or am I just sharing? And I find as soon as I am doing a live and I see the number of people up there, it's like, it's hard for me to be in my body and get into the sharing. Like I find myself getting into the performance of it. And so it's like this test or like I'm working with myself to see if I can. stay in that spot where it's like I'm acting the same way or I'm sharing in the same way whether there's no matter how many number of people it's showing on that thing. Well, so is there a place to see how many people are in it? Because like all I can see is like so -and -so has joined, but it's like one second, you know what I mean? Like I don't, and I don't know. No, yeah, the top right, there's like a little, there's a little human icon and it shows the number and that's the number of live people at one time. that, but if you focus on that, that can be hard. Cause like last night, so I went live on TikTok and like, it was like midnight almost for a while. It's like, it went up to three people and then down to zero for while there for like five minutes. It's just me playing. And then all of sudden one guy joins. And he was liking a song I was playing and he just like started like spamming the likes. And I guess the algorithm all of a sudden, and then all of a sudden it jumps up and now there's 10 people and six people, five, you know, and it's like, I mean, not that many people, but like it was a lot for me last night. Yeah. like I don't, God, dude, I feel like such an old, I always thought that I would like, I always thought that I would like stay with technology and just cause I just like, you know, cause like when we were born, we've had to adapt to a lot of crazy technology and I've done that, know what I mean? But like I, for the first time ever, I'm starting to feel like an old man because it's like, I'll get on those, I'll get, I'll, I'll do, I'll be like, okay, I'm to do a live. And then like, I'll play, I'll start playing a song and then I'll look down and I'll see someone. So those people have joined and whatever. That's all can see is it says so -and -so joined. And so I'll just be like, hello people. I'll just start talking like, hello, who's out there? I love you. And I, can't, yeah, I can't interact. I don't know how to interact with them because I'm too stupid. And so I'm just like, I don't know if anybody can hear this, but you're beautiful and I love you. And I think you're great. And it's like just me speaking into the like empty echoes of space, you know? You're like a troll coming out from a bridge. Speaking of trolls coming out of a bridge, did watch the debate last night? I did watch the debate and apparently, you know, I'm glad I don't think the dog eating stuff has come to California yet. I don't think people are eating dogs in Cal. We haven't gotten to that stage of the apocalypse, you know, where people are eating dogs and cats that I know of. Dude, wasn't that wild? It's so wild because here's the deal. In any other debate, in any other presidential election, he's toast with that comment. That comment, that comment, Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney said we have binders filled with women. Like when Mitt Romney said that he was talking about and everybody knew what he was talking about. He was like, look, dude, I, I believe firmly in having really super duper qualified women and, putting them in trusted positions of power. Everybody knew that he was saying that shit, but because it's politics, the sound bite was I got binders filled full of women and it just became the thing that destroyed his candidacy. Right? Meanwhile, Trump is just like, saying Trump just says nonsense. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, No, it was nonsense the whole time and it was, and that, but I was watching that comment in disbelief. Still, even with that, like, I shouldn't be like, shouldn't, I should, I should be past the spot of being, being shocked at anything he says. But yet when he said that I'm like, what, and any other presidential election, it would be like, well, it's over, but it's still a close race. It's going to be, I don't know if it made, you know, but. I think he's gonna win. I think he's still thinking so well. Yeah. Dude, like, you know, we've made no, we've made, we have made it no secret how we feel about Trump, right? You and I talk pretty frequently on the podcast about it, but do you know, do you know what I, do you know what last night felt like to me? Like here's who Trump, here's who Donald Trump is. He's, he's the guy who like, you know, the guy at the, okay. So you know, like go to like a farmer's market, right? Yeah. and there's like some crazy guy who's got like a pickup truck that's got like full paragraphs. Like he's written, he's written full paragraphs that like wrap around his pickup truck about how the government is taking your taxes and your money. And, and, and, and so you go up to this guy cause he's standing somewhere in the farmer's market and he's got one of those little like bullhorn deals, like where he's talking, like talking into the little walkie talkie thing, but it's like, connected to like a bullhorn and he's babbling about God knows what. So you go up to him, you know, I liked, I liked going up to those guys. Like I liked going up to those guys in the farmer's market and you're like, okay, man, tell me what's your, tell me your thing. What's up. And the dude is just like, have I, have I lost you? Did I lose you? I don't have internet, are you there? Yeah, back in, yeah. Just keep going with where you're at. Well, I was just talking about it. Okay, I'll just keep talking. I guess, yeah, because I'm freezing up and it's like throwing off my rhythm here. But like, I like to talk to those guys. I guess the point of them trying to say is I like to talk to those guys because then they'll get in there and they'll be like, okay, listen, I used to be the CEO of like a multi -billion dollar company. I, read, people said I was the most important person on planet earth. And I was the richest guy. And my, companies were the most important companies and they were the best, most successful companies. And then they ousted me from my companies. And I've lived it all, man. I've lived a billionaire lifestyle and I've lived, I've been homeless. And then I became a reality TV star. And then I was president of the United States. And then what they did is they got, they're eating dogs and cats on the streets and they're trying to turn illegal aliens into transgendered serial killers. And also there's a lot of people who are like not really paying attention and the government's trying to take you down. And there's like a lot of people who are trying to get in you and they want to do They want to do abortions on babies after they're born and they want to kill their executing babies. There's newborns. Okay. The newborns come out of the mama and they start walking around and they say, hello, my name is Dan. And then there's like, and then the Democrats kill the newborns. And you're just like, okay, man, that's a, that's a lot for you to say here on the Saturday morning farmers market, but like, good on you. Like keep doing your thing. And I know you got a good heart. You're a little nuts, but like stay away from, you know, my kids. Okay, kids don't stare. Let's move along. But like, That's okay at the farmer's market. Nobody's like saying, okay, man, we're putting you in charge now. you're the most powerful person on planet earth now. No, it's just a crazy guy at the farmer's market or, but he gots him. You just go get in his truck and he drives off, you know, and you're just like, wow, what's that guy's life like? Meanwhile, Trump does that stuff live on national TV. He's a 78 year old crazy man rambling about like clouds having internet. And it's just like, man, I don't know how we got here. I don't know where we're at right now. don't know how, you cause if you say to me, like if you come to me and you say, Democrat A, B and C, I don't like them because this, isn't this. I'm like, okay, I don't know that I'm like so into these candidates very much. But half of the country is like, okay, Donald Trump won that debate first of all. Here's like, wait. What are you talking about? Like even the Fox News? I watched Fox News after the fucking debate and even the Fox News people were like Boy, that's a lot, huh? What are we gonna do now? Yeah turned it they turned it to the moderators and this and that well But it's like, you know three against one with the moderators But what do expect the moderators to do when you have one candidate who's like they're eating dogs it's like You know Of course one is gonna get fact -checked more than the other one because it's like The moderators never fact -checked Kamala Harris. She didn't say anything about 12 month abortions, did she? Fucking idiot. Like, yeah, I guess, I guess she probably stressed her tooth. And frankly, I would have liked for them to grill her a little bit more on like her policy changes, like her position changes. Do you know what I mean? Like they could have been a little, they could have been a little rougher. But like also Trump could have done that. He's the fucker in the debate. He's the one that can push her on that stuff. But he never once tried to He never once tried to win that debate. He never once tried to be like, know, Madam Vice President, you haven't answered the question. Why did you change your position on healthcare from 2017 to 2019? Never once did he push on anything. He just rambled like a loony old man at the farmer's market. Like, I feel like I'm coming out of a jazz game and it's those people that hold the signs of like, you know, there's like, There's a - there's there's a - here's what a fetus looks like! You're like, gross! My kids are here! or outside of general conference when like... of conference. Like that, like Trump would fit in with those people. The problem is we've, we've made those people mainstream. You remember walking out of conference, you'd be like, man, those poor, those poor people, something's just like not right in their head. They've, they've been brainwashed by fucking, you know, whatever religion thing or the Westboro Baptist church who, by the way, I haven't heard from them for, what's going on with the Westboro Baptist church. a point. I don't know. They haven't been in my field. They haven't been in the news. You know what? It happened. could they put them in the news? Someone crazier became President of the United States! I just caught myself with as I was saying that. That's what happened. 2016 happened. Yeah, they're not gonna be like, by the way, there's less crazy people doing less crazy things than the president of United States. Everybody be like, who cares? What's the fucking leader of the free world doing? He's doing crazier shit than the Westboro Baptist Church. There was a had to, I was gonna say with Kamala, I had to, I'm glad she eventually, cause when she started talking and it was like, well, one, it was good she came with some sort of a plan or I tried to articulate it. But when she got too bogged down into like, I have a policy that's gonna give 50 ,000 to this and this and that, just like the same politicians speak that, you we hear so many times and it's just like, no one gives a shit. And then so as soon as she then was like more like, This isn't a debate. I've got a toddler here who's just spouting whatever. She started doing that thing where she started poking him. She would make fun of the crowd sizes and he would take every bait. She just started throwing the bait out and he just... I'm like, okay, now she knows how to debate Donald Trump because that's what you do. Let me ask you this, I agree with you on that, but it's like... Did anyone, so unsurprisingly, he took the bait every single time. Unsurprisingly, because no matter how hard anybody on his team tries to be like, dude, you're gonna win if you just don't say crazy shit and don't get like little dick syndrome out there on stage, which he did 40 times. Like nobody cares because people have already made their decision. Like gone. I don't know if it's ever happened, Mike, but like gone or that I guess I I try. I guess I try. And maybe I'm being insincere when I say this, but I do try. Like I read J .D. Vans book. I read Kamala's book. I believe that we should become informed about the people who are begging for our vote. I think our vote matters. I think a vote is a like it's a thing in a democracy, you know? know there's a thing with like, mean, because it's a two party system, it gets really challenging sometime because you're picking between sometimes tweedle dee and tweedle dum, you know? always, that's always kind of the case, right? I mean, it's like two dipshits. But it's, no, guess that hasn't always been the case. Like I used to say that, like I used to say that when it was like McCain and Obama. I was like fucking dipshit A or dipshit B. But it's like, no, now it's seriously, you have to like look at people and be like, okay, so you saw that he just said Haitian immigrants are. Eating dogs and they're eating cats and in virginia. He said west virginia and then he said virginia He doesn't always talk. He's like they're they're doing Sometimes they're putting the baby aside after it's born and then deciding to kill it and i'm like What this is this? No, this is not nothing. Nothing like this is happening at all Like that's the thing that always that always cracks me up. It's like, you know, it's like that thing of like wow, dude, man mainstream media liberal swing they're all just you guys got to do your own research, man. You got to follow the, you know, follow the clues and you know, it's a, and it's like, dude, you're basing your entire fucking identity on what one lunatic says. Like all these people who say like, do your own research. They're just dismissing that the whole planet earth is like, look, I know that we disagree on stuff, but like, we got to agree basically that like, here's like the basic rules of how we all sort of like, interact with one another. But right now, the Trump thing is like, no, we disagree. One person is telling the truth. There's a huge conspiracy that the local police, you you go to like fundraiser for like your local fire station. They're all in on it. The police are all in on it. The mayors, the county commissioners, the governor, like there's this whole thing. that everyone is in on except for like a handful of dipshits like, you know, Alex Jones, Donald Trump, Joe Rogan. It's like these guys, these are the guys you're telling me to do my own research, but you'll read an article that someone who went to like fucking journalism school and spent six months researching and double checking and triple checking their sources and like and like going into the front lines and saying, OK, here's what you know, here's what happened in Afghanistan. Nope. That didn't happen. Bullshit. Donald Trump said it didn't. It's like you're, what are you talking about? I don't, let's change the subject. It's, actually I wanted to keep going down this for a little bit because we haven't talked about this as much on the podcast. And with it's how the psychedelic world, I feel like we reenter the conspiracy theories a lot. Yeah, dude, conspiracy theories are like the thing, right? In our world. It's like, okay, man. well, so I remember it was early on when we started the podcast and I think Shalisa had mentioned about Gaia, you getting the Gaia channel. And I'm like, yeah, I've never heard of Gaia. So I got it and was like fascinated by some of these. First was like, my gosh, there's these cool little episodes on psychedelics and, you know, stuff we were like exploring with her as far as like aliens and everything but then it's like chemtrails and And the reptilians that are you know and it's like and then even I don't know if they had flat earth stuff in there don't know if they went that far, but like They go pretty far down those things and there's some sort of and I can't quite figure it out Well, I do in a way because I remember the first time I did ayahuasca There was like this waking up to the illusion of this dream, to a deeper dream. And it was kind of like the stuff about, my gosh, stuff like, I kind of understood astrology and I understood, I understood, it was like. that felt sense of like, my gosh, yes, we are here on this place and there's like a map in the sky of stars and the stars kind of, know, and the, ancient ancestors knew how to read the map of the stars and we've forgotten how to do that in our modern world. So there's stuff like that, but then it's like, but then I just can't, some of these conspiracy theories are just too much and too... I can't and so it's like you guys I can't just throw I don't know and then it's like what were you even fact -checking where you even getting your where you even doing anything like that I don't I'm making sense with that you're making a lot of sense. Do you know what it's coming, I'm just having this as a real time thought. It's like every modality, like every thing has its Mormon temple moment. So like, you know I've talked about it like a bunch, but like when you're raised in the church like, book of Mormon stories that my teacher told to me. Like, be kind, and Jesus was this cute little guy who was like running around everywhere and doing nice deeds and like. you know, helping people out of a jam and being cool and we should be going around doing cool things and being nice to people and like helping our neighbors. You're like, yeah man, that's what I believed from the time I was like, from the time I was almost aborted when I was six months old to when I was, know, 18 and a half. I just was like, yeah, we believe in doing good deeds and being nice and kind and generous. And then go to the temple and it's like, Okay, kind of we believe those things, but here's what we actually believe and it's gonna get real weird. Like here we go. And it's like, then you go through the temple and it's like, whoa, this is not anything that I remember. That's what happens to me in the, it's like, man, you stay up past about 2 a at any festival and it's like, then it starts being like, okay, man, here's what's really going on around here. And it's like, whoa, bro, like, I don't know, man. That sounds kind of heavy. And here's where I'm landing on all this. You can take so much literally and you can take, you know, you get into, so I did this thing recently, man, I've gotten down a Mormon rabbit hole lately. So I, binged watch. I had to, I binged watch over the weekend. I know it. I know what you're gonna say The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. I watched all eight episodes. I watched, well, watched seven and a half episodes over the weekend and I finished it up Monday night. And it ends on a bit of a cliffhanger and I was like, I could, I want more. My god, man And I have never, so in the last, I submitted my final paper for school. I saw my dissertation. Thank you. man. That's exciting. Very cool. Thank you. It felt so good yesterday. In fact, it was a really cathartic moment when I hit send on that thing and But I bring that up because in the last three years not only I mean I love TV I I haven't watched but I don't watch reality TV I haven't watched reality TV since it was a thing back, you know, right when it was really getting big and you know the early 2000s when Survivor and The Bachelor and American Idol were all coming out and the apprentice yes The thing that got us into this mess in the first place all out there. I tried out for the apprentice and kind of got far. Well, that's a story for another day, but yeah, please. I know dude. I've been sitting on that story. Cause I'm so fucking embarrassed. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. So you could, are you saying that Donald Trump fired you? Well, I never got far enough. geez, that's a story for another time. I don't even want to tell it, but I got that little nugget for just the right time. But then, know, movies and film and movies and film, film and TV, I love them. But in the last three years since like starting the podcast and going to school, like when everyone else was like binging stuff during COVID, I was hardly watching TV at all. And so I found myself, but I've gotten back into it in the last year. I'm really enjoying a lot of shows that I've been watching. but I've never watched a TV show like The Secret Lives of Mormon Wise. So I'm like, have to watch one episode to see what it's like. And then all of sudden I'm three episodes in, I'm like, I'm in it. And then I was on, this is another thing, man. I was on Instagram and Mormon Stories have been posting some clips from an episode they did, a six and a half hour episode. with like two millennials, they have their own YouTube channel called the Stick of Joseph or something. And they're like, you know, defending the Book of Mormon. So they kind of got on and almost like to debate John DeLinn for six and a half hours. Dude, it's a six and a half hour. Our podcasts are too long. Yeah, I finished that today, I did. Bro, what? You did? I have so many questions. Yeah. well, so I bring that up because, man, so many things, I mean, so I've gone down this Mormon rabbit hole, but what I was feeling in both like John DeLinn and like his guests I had on, and then what we're talking about with conspiracy theories is over -literalizing things. Like, making any, we can make anything dogmatic. We can have, we can see a vision in a mushroom ceremony and be like, this is the truth. can, it's, it's, it's the thing in Mormonism. We could watch Lord of the Rings and be like, the Mormon equivalent is this. Pretend like you're, you, you have a friend who's never watched Lord of the Rings and you have them come over and they're, really into it. Like, wow, this is so good. And then they get the final part and. Sam turns to Frodo and he's like, I can't carry the ring Frodo, but I can carry you and the music plays and you're afraid you turn over your friends just like crying. He's totally feeling it. And you pause the movie and you go, how are you feeling right now? And he's like, man, so good. This is so, I'm feeling inspired. I'm feeling courageous. I'm feeling a burning in like my bosom. I testify to you that those feelings mean that Frodo and Sam are true, are real, and that the one ring is true and it was destroyed. They destroyed the ring for all of us. And I testify this to you. And that's what it is. so you're taking, so same thing. You know, my spiritual experiences in Mormonism, I had a lot of them. I've had... those same types of burning in my bosoms and those same spiritual feelings to like magnified degree since leaving Mormonism. But like it doesn't mean that my Mormon experiences weren't true with that or that these ones aren't true. It means that I'm connecting to this deeper part of reality. And as soon as I start literalizing it and saying it means this, I've already lost, I'm caught, I'm caught in it. Dude, that's so well said. I'm picturing, God, literalism. You're really good at, that's been a thing that I think that you've sort of zeroed in on in the last couple of years as we've been talking about it. literalism is, I think literalism can be just as dangerous as any other kind of ism. Do you know what I mean? I'm laughing because I'm sitting here picturing, you pause, you pause, return to the king. you know, before they, before they, you know, before it's like the final scene that like sort of wraps it all up with their, know, everybody's bowing to the hobbits and stuff like that. And you just like pause it and you turn to your buddy or the, or worse, a stranger that you just met and invited, you know, asked if you could come to their home and you know, you're in their house. Let's watch Lord of the Rings. And then you pause it you're like, When Sam and Frodo were on Mount Doom. And they're just like, this is really awkward that you're singing this song about Sam and Frodo. What are you doing? They're like, well, it's well, because it's true. I wanted to, I wanted you to feel that it's true. And people are like, well, what do mean? When you say it's true, what do you, what do you mean by it's true? It's like, no, it's literal. This is what happened. This is how the world works. It's like, no, I just watched it, it's a story. Well, and had a moment the other day. So I was at this party and this guy comes up to me and he's, you know, it wants to talk about my Mormon background and stuff. And we were talking about that. And he's like, have you ever read like Christopher Hitchens and, you know, he started talking about all these like, atheist authors. He's like, I'm going to convert you to atheism. And he's like, they were saying this, this, this. And I was like, and I had a moment. where it was like, so early on in my program, we were kind of learning how like you can, science can become a new religion, but I never fully got it. I always got, but yeah, but it's science. They're like proving it. But then it's like, when I heard him speaking, I'm like, he's, it's just, it's science is his God. Science is his, you're saying we are in this mysterious universe that we can't explain. but the only truth I'm going to accept is one that can be repeated in a lab and, and, you know, tested and all that. When, who knows? I mean, yeah, that's, it's one way of finding out a certain type of truth. I'm not anti -science. I mean, we're talking right now because of science. We wouldn't be able to do this, but it's one aspect of exploring the mystery. But, it's limited in its ability to explore the mystery and everything. And so you can be just as dogmatic about science as you do with, you know, I'm only going to believe something if some a hundred year old fart like says, he just turned a hundred, right? Like Rusty Nelson or whatever. He turned a hundred this week. who we were talking about. He's a hundred? He turned 100, man, he turned 100. And the governor of Utah named it Russell Nelson Day and stuff, the theocracy in Utah. It was like a few days ago. Yeah. Yeah. shit on the 9 -11 thing. I just wanted to make a 9 -11 joke. But yeah, it's like I'm only gonna believe something if it comes from the mouth of one of these men. But same thing, I'm only gonna believe something if a scientist has told me that's what it is. And I feel like you can be just as dogmatic either way. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, I was a big Christopher Hitchens guy. His book, God Is Not Great, I think it's called. It's great. mean, it's awesome. He's got such a good delivery. the way he thinks, he's just so pragmatic. you know what I mean? But it's like you're saying, any sort of I guess belief is just a weird thing to me because anything that is like, okay, I believe this thing. God, I'm having a hard time with this mic because I don't know that science is a fucking belief. Like I know there are people who make science their God, but I don't think by nature, I don't think that the default setting of science is we demand belief. Because science is all about like, skepticism, right? It's all about like trying to so I guess I don't... Right, there's a difference there. Yeah. Yeah. to be like, become an atheist. And it's like, why do you fucking care, dude? Well, and I've noticed that with other people's like, it's, gets, can be just as dogmatic and just as rigid and just as like, you know, and what I guess what I'm trying to say is, you know, I was thinking about this the other day after it was like, it's like, okay, pretend. Well, I don't know if we have to pretend this much. I mean, the, this mystery that we're engaging with, you know, we talk about like the divine feminine or the feminine, like. Pretend it's like a woman that we're trying to understand, right? And then you have a group of guys being like, we're gonna figure this out. We're gonna do these studies and we're gonna like, you know, eight out of 10 times when we responded this way, the women liked it. We're gonna cut them open. We're gonna pick them apart. We're gonna study what they do. We're gonna learn all about women. And then another guy goes up and is like, well, did you go up and say, hey, what's up? Did you ask him? Did you talk to him? Did you make out with him? Did you make love to her? There's, there's, and not that both, both, streams of knowledge are going to get are valuable. There's a value to science and what science has uncovered. But if the universe really is in sold and is a mystery, who is she going to reveal her deeper truths to? The one who's poking and prodding and like, or the one who was like, I'm going to engage with this mystery. And I don't know. That's kind of the analogy I see with it. I'm thinking about, it's a good analogy because it makes me think about like, speaking of reality TV shows, God, man, is Mike, this is so fucking brilliant. Like you've done it. Like I think that we can marry you watching reality TV shows and like the scientific method versus faith versus like just sort of like having a sort of like natural like learning to. learning to move with the natural rhythms of something, like with the waves, right? There used to be reality TV show back in the 2000s that was called The Pickup Artist, I think. It was about a group of dudes who would bring a bunch of nerds into a, they would bring a bunch of nerds into this mansion and teach them how to pick up on girls. And it was just like the fucking. Dude, it was the cringiest shit and it was like, okay, man, I wish I could remember the main homie's name, because it was so cringe. Saying cringe is also kind of cringe, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I got teenagers, so I say funny shit. Mr. E, maybe, maybe his name was Mr. E. Anyway, it's irrelevant. So this dude was like this guy who wore eyeliner and had a ponytail and wore like a Mad Hatter hat. And he would teach these guys, it was like watching the Missionary Training Center is what the show was. Because it was like, if you show interest in these women, and they taught them about things that they called being negative. You throw a woman off in a crowded bar by being the guy who's not complimenting everything about her. And it's like, looking at the small things and having like some kind of necklace. I don't know. Like the show was just real dorky. And so then they would just send these poor hapless dweebs out and they'd be wearing like their little, know, like they all looked like they were kind of doing like steampunk fucking Alice in Wonderland shit, you know, they're all dressed up in their little costumes and they go out to this club and you know, once in a while a guy would like have a successful opportunity of talking to girl, you're like, also like, well, what's going on here? Cause there's cameras. The guy is dressed like he's like on a TV show. It's like there, there, there's something insincere about it. it's a, it's a hidden cam. It's a secret cam. But the thing I'm trying to do to make this whole big point and I'm not doing a very good job of it is that that's the science. Like I hear you saying that that's the scientist part, right? The thing of like, bringing these fuckers that think they're these like, God's gift to women and saying, okay, here's step one, step two, step three, step four, this is the method for picking up on girls. And then these dudes are just like, okay, well I'm gonna do these methods. And it's like, have you considered showing true interest in a person and having just sort of like a natural. It's like well that's not everybody can fucking do that like these guys are trying to say like Here's the secrets to this fucking mystery of this of this of this universe And it's like no man like there's shit going on like this this whole thing is a mystery It's a fun thing to experience. It's a fun thing to discover. It's go out and explore it and find some things I think that's how I'm marrying the two points that you're talking about because I am pro, you know science but like well, and if you think of it in scientific terms in the realm of quantum physics. So what we're learning about with quantum physics, what we've learned is that like the nature of the question and how you ask it determines the response you get. know, at the level, for the most part, things operate according to Newtonian physics. But when you get to subatomic, things can be waves or particles depending on the nature of you asking the question. so I feel like, I mean, I've come to this thing, I think whatever we're dealing with here has, it's in sold. There's an aspect to it that's deeper. And I think there's so many ways to explore it. And if you come with a certain mindset and a certain attitude and a certain question, And very, you know, what we're used to in the, in, you know, the, the colonialist mindset that we're going to conquer and exploit and poke and prod and experiment on this thing. This, well, we call it a thing. Exactly. It's a, it's an object. It's a thing. Things perfect. Right? Cause that's, that's the attitude we have versus like, Whoa, what if I engage with this mystery and really deepen into it and really engage and. You know, that's what I, when you're having a psychedelic trip, that's one of the things that's going on. Hey, you've said a word a couple of times that I don't know that I know. Are you saying the word and sold like E N? Are you saying like containing soul and sold? and sold. Yeah, and sold. It's a cool word, right? Like that things have a soul. the fuck is that word? Yeah, and sold. A thing that has a soul, I guess, probably. Yeah, and so there's a notion that things have soul. mean, the things we are so used to treating as objects, you know, if you talk to it like an indigenous person, they know they believe that everything has soul and the mystery has soul. And I don't know. I like that. mean, even if you do one more quick analogy, like with music, you know, you can I could read music, I could. you know, like, what music's good? I could rate it. I could do experiments to say, okay, if this person likes this music, then they must like this music and this. Or you just go and you're front and center at a concert and you just let the music just like wash over you. And that's a way of knowing the music. Even if you like have no idea what chords they're playing and what you just, you're just knowing it, you know, like in the biblical sense of knowing, you know. Yeah, you're fucking it. You're fucking with the music. you ever asked Chatchat GPT to write you a song? Does it does it do music and stuff? Or is it lyrics? So I, you, I've done it. You can go into chat GPT and be like, Hey, I want to write a song. here's kind of the basic themes that I'm thinking of. it's, it's, wanted to, you know, guitar parts. want a cord. I want you to give me like how it should sound, how, I mean, what the kind of genre you can tell it all that stuff. And then it'll spit out just like that, like a snap of a finger. It'll spit out some, some song, but, but it's. God -awful. that's coming as, that's a tough thing to say because I'm saying that as a person who considers himself a songwriter, who's never written a song that's like, you know, changed the world or made, you know, like somebody could very easily say back to me like, well, fuck you, your songs aren't any better than chat GPT. But the point of them, the point I'm, well, okay, but they could say that, right? A person could say that. The point I'm making is that like, it lacks soul. there's something that's like, you know, my wife and I were talking about this just the other day, because like, she'll love these songs that she'll be like, I want you to listen to this song. She'll put it on and I'll be like, okay. And we found out in our marriage that like, I listen to lyrics and she listens to like the music, like the beat and the rhythm, because she'll... playing these songs I'm like what the fuck is this song like like what is this what are they saying and she's like I don't know I don't even know but but she's feeling the music do you know what mean whereas I'm the I don't know I'm the opposite I I like I like music like I like the way of song sounds for sure but I like more extreme on the lyric side than you are actually too even like if you put your us in that spectrum, I feel like I lyrics to me can change like I could if a song has or I feel like just like mundane lyrics or something that but then it has one line and that line it's it's it's the the words in combination with like you know what they do with the you know, yeah. totally agree with that. I mean, I love lyrics. I love words. You and I both love words, right? But I keep getting, I keep being dumb, but like, it's the combination, right? It's not like she's right or you and me are, like you and I are right. It's like, no, it's gotta be both kind of. You know what I mean? Like, I guess you can get away with it, like, you know. A song can get through into the clubs or whatever. And it's just like, Hey man, this shit's got the dopest bubblegum beat I ever heard in my life. And when they're like talking about like, yeah, take it out of the oven and blow it. You're like, okay. Well, whatever. Sounds great, man. Let's do this. So I do want to make a, a hard segue from this conversation back to something that you were talking about when you're talking about the secret wives of Mormon housewives. please. Yeah, I would love to chat about that show. So because we've been trying to get music out there a little bit lately, we've got, we, share like a tick tock account. You and I do. Right. dude, we share this fucking TikTok account and, I, I haven't had, social media for a long time. And so like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling the pull of it. Like I'm feeling the addiction of it, you know, I'll get on and do like TikTok and then I'll just be like, God damn it. I just kind of want to watch some TikToks. Like I hate that. I hate, this is a confession I'm making, but I'll just kind of start scrolling and be like, okay, let me check out some of these TikToks, but I can, I was telling you this earlier today. I can tell that you've been watching the secret housewives of the secret Mormon housewives because there's like a shitload of TikToks about them going on. Do you know what I mean? It's like, the fuck man? And then, but also dude, our TikTok stream has got to be the funniest freaking thing that there is, right? Cause like the combination of what you're looking at, what I'm looking at, like I get like also like I'll jump from like golf memes, like golf videos to like, Hey, I'm 24 and I'm about to go live. And sometimes when I'm live, my boobs pop out. I'm like, fuck yeah, dude, I'll get in there. And then it's like never, that never happens. Like I'm such a, I'm such a Rube dude. am, I am the guy at the carnival who they look, they see me coming and they're like, dude, this guy, can just say boobs and he's going to come walking over to our booth and pay $40 to try to win a prize. I'm like, whoa, there's boobs. Like I really do scroll through our TikTok and every once in a while, you know, you get to one that's like, join my live and you might see me, my chest. I'm like, okay, I'm in. Anyway. that I don't know if the algorithms like what if we break the algorithm with it? You know? Well, we might be breaking the algorithm because a lot of those TikToks I'm seeing are, are scantily clad women playing golf. I'm like, fuck yeah, man. This is like my, this is like my dream. Like the internet has created. My dream has come true. You know what I mean? so let me just talk about a little bit why, let me try to explain why I got sucked into that show. cause it is, it is just as trashy as I imagine, you know, the real housewives of whatever ever is, know, but because there's that Mormon aspect, you know, I found myself at first being like, you know, the inner Mormon in me was like, these women are not Mormon. You know, you know, I know there's all over the internet, Like there's women are not Mormon, but then that quickly changed to that quickly changed like, wait, no, they are so Mormon. They're so in the Mormon complex. Like they, know, everything from the swig sugary sodas to the Botox, to the plastic surgery, to the cattiness, to the like, And I hate talking about, know, cause whatever. You get what I mean? They focus on appearance. Like I don't want to like shame Botox and whatever. I'm not, I'm just saying that like Utah, it's kind of a bubble for it. It's an epicenter for it. It's like a, it's just, you know what it is? So I'm gonna talk, have we talked about like the Madonna -whore archetype split? yeah. should talk about it more. So it's this thing of especially in Mormonism, especially or any puritanical religion based on puritanism and like purity. What it usually creates is this dynamic of it's the whore and Madonna archetypes. So Madonna is like the Virgin Mary, the purity. It's almost like the mother. is split from the the whore the sexual aspect of the feminine and so what you get is you know it's why like a lot of men will not be sexually attracted to their wife because the wife is holding that madonna image for them they put the wife the woman on a pedestal women are so pure women are so women are so much better than men women are so much more righteous than men you put women on a pedestal and so the whore now you in you encounter her out in somewhere else. You have a mistress or you have some something else going on, right? And you see the damage that that does to women and men on that show. But because the focus of the show is women, you see, I feel like it's that complex, but only magnified on, it's like someone lit a match and gasoline on it. So the dynamic that's in a lot of Mormons is just blown up where you don't know what to do with this I'm a hypersexual being or maybe you don't feel that way, but it's like you're dealing with this tension of being good and pure and being a mother and being a Relief Society president and living up to this image of you on a pedestal as a spiritual being, but also you're an animal too. You like sex and this pressure to... Yeah. Sex is next to murder when you're growing up. And then all of a sudden it's like you get married in the temple or whatever. And then it's like, wait, now it's your duty to your husband. And so I was very fascinated. I just feel like that's the dynamic and it's on display. And it's a microcosm of the tension in Mormon culture that's very prominent in Utah. You know, we've talked about it a couple of times as far as like sex being next to murder, but like I think that I was raised with them being interchangeable. Like I was raised, we talked about it before with the whole like, you know, Ted Bundy said that he got his start doing serial killing because he looked at some porn one time. that's what I was raised on. So imagine it being so forbidden and taboo. And then it's like that switch is flipped on your wedding day. Imagine it being like, okay, tonight you got to tonight, you have to sacrifice a virgin. Like that's, that's, that's literally what's happening, right? Tonight we're going to sacrifice a couple of virgins, but it's not so literal. Like you just have to have sex, but, but, but the way you feel about it is also like, well, am I committing murder? Like, am I, am I going to become a serial killer? Is this what's happening to me now? Like, we've talked, I mean, you and I talk all the time about how violent, how violent imagery is like crucial to not just Mormonism, violent imagery is crucial to religion, right? Like the main dude, the main dude, religion's main attraction, like their main guy is a half -naked man hanging from a cross. Like that's their main avatar. of all religion. Like, I get that Christianity is not the only religion in world, Jesus is like the main guy in religion, right? And so it's like, okay, I've been raised on like almost violence is more okay than sex. And so I can only imagine, first of all, they're probably hamming it up because it's a TV show, right? Yeah, no, it's definitely sensationalized and they're picking the most dramatic moments. So I can only imagine that they are like, not just the show itself, like not the producers of the show, but also the people who are on the show are like, I better put on a show. And part of putting on a show is that like, if I'm a little bit of a, you you're talking about the whore and the Madonna, like if I'm a little bit of a whore, I better go hard. Like I better go all the way. Like I better go all the way if I'm gonna be that prototype, if I'm gonna be that archetype. man, I guess maybe I should watch this show. Fuck you, Mike, I don't wanna watch this show. so like for example, and I almost hesitate talking about a lot of this without a woman here with us, but I am, you know what I mean? We're two wives. But in a way of empathizing with what it must be like to be in your early 20s, you got married and knocked up when you were 19. Now, you are, and these women on the show, for a lot of them, they are the breadwinners too. So you have the pressure of being the breadwinner, taking care of the kids, being sexy, being good, being a good Mormon, being, it's just, it's so much pressure. And it breeds a very, you know, caddy competitive environment. Like, it's like what we were talking about with musical chairs, but just like blown up. dude, let's talk musical chairs. Yeah, well, I mean, we're talking about how it's the stupidest game ever. And it's the game that teaches us this mindset of competing with each other. that, like, there's only so many chairs in this place. How did we get talking about that today? How did that come up? What was the... We're talking about it right? Cause you've talked about it in sort of in light of your schooling and sort of like our conversations about abundance and scarcity. Like you've made good points about it as far as like the game itself is such a weird game. It's like we teach kids as early as possible. listen, we're gonna arbitrarily just remove things. Like the music is gonna start. And we're gonna move a chair from right here to 10 feet away. But now that it's 10 feet away, it's no longer... it no longer counts. Like you're... yeah. How? yeah. elder one of the elder Bednar or someone popped up on your feed. Yeah. And he was talking about how why it's good that the church has stored up $120 billion. Yeah, he was defensive of it. He was like, he's giving a speech. And he's like, yeah, people have said, like, why does the Mormon church have to have $120 billion? And he's like, I think that the rest of the world could learn from it. Like the rest of the world should, like, isn't it smart of us to store up for a rainy day, you know, and be frugal. And I'm like, I'm sitting there watching this. I'm like, are people taking this, like, are people being like, yeah, good thing our Good thing my religion has $120 billion because what if there's a rainy day? What if there's a flood? What if there's an earthquake and it puts a crack in the Salt Lake Temple or the conference center? Then what? We need $120 billion to fix it. There's, I can't picture a scenario where the church actually uses that money. I can't. They're never gonna be, wait, good thing guys, we've got $120 billion here, we're gonna like spread the wealth. They're not gonna do that. They're holding onto it. It's a fear thing and it comes out of scarcity. Comes out, could we start, like with hunter gatherers, the whole point was we were talking about the work week and how we were like, the 40 hour standard work week is ridiculous. And in this book I was reading, it talking about hunter gatherers worked an average of 15 hours a week, because that's all they kind of needed to just take what they need. Because they had this trust. It's like, if I just take what I need and I share, we live in this place where food just grows on trees. We'll be fine. And then as soon as we're like, no, let's start hoarding and manipulating. And some people are taking more. Now you've created this thing of scarcity. soon as someone takes the chair away or pulls some chairs for themselves, like, hey, okay, I know we have 10 people here in 10 chairs, but I kind of want to, I don't know if I want to make sure I have a chair later if this one breaks. So I'm going to take two. So now you've got eight chairs and 10 people. Now you got 10 people fighting over the eight chairs when it's just like, no, just like if we just, that sharing thing, that sharing thing. right here. The chairs are still here. Someone has just arbitrarily created the scarcity. someone has just been like, well, that's the way I was taught the rules. so it's not like it's not, you know, it's not sometimes done intentionally, but it was like, the lady that's running the game just took the fucking chair away. It's not like the chairs were used and are gone. I guess I'm using. Well, and so here's tying that into is what I love about tying into like the secret wives of Mormon life, whatever. Secret wives of Mormon life. By the way, that actually is a fairly accurate. That's why I left the fucking church is because of the secret wives of Mormon life. I want to see that show the secret wives of Mormon life dog. That's the show they need to show me. Hey, Netflix or whoever, get the show The Secret Wives of Mormon Lives. I actually didn't know what we should call this episode. Yes, definitely. But, where was I going with, this thing of like, if the church creates that scarcity within you, right, where it's like, you are not whole, we're gonna take some of your chairs away, and in order for you to like, be worthy of these chairs, you're gonna have to do X this, this, this, this, and this. And so, it's, still, so whether or not you think these women are Mormon enough or not Mormon enough or whatever, They're swimming in the complex of Mormonism. They are products of Mormonism in Mormon culture. so that's what leads a lot. And, you know, I shouldn't just blame Mormonism because it's also capitalism that does this. And it's why, you know, you don't just see mean girls in the Mormon situation. You see it out. It's you're creating this competition. And you know what the patriarchy loves? The patriarchy loves when women are fighting against themselves. Because then they're not if we have women fighting against each other, they're not they're not looking at the men in power. The patriarchy wants women being like, I just, don't think Kamala Harris seems very smart or what has she done or what? don't know much about her. Dude, that's, that was, I'm totally going off topic here again. So we're zig and zag, man. We zig and we zag. Dude, the pundits have been like, that's one of the things that they've tried to do, right? They try to tell story, it's a narrative. yeah, well, we just don't know much about Kamala Harris. We don't know much about her. She had a chance on the debate to tell us about herself, and we just still don't know much about her. What's she hiding? Like, we just don't know much about Kamala Harris. How can we vote for her when we don't know much about her? And it's just like, dog. Your whole life is based on a dude that you never met before, that you don't know anything about. Like, there's just like a bunch of fucking, like... God! We know way more about Kamala Harris than we know about God. A. That she exists! Like, we know... We know that Kamala Harris is a person and exists and she's running around. only seen her on TV and you know what else saw on TV? People eating dogs. Why do I seem to eating dogs when people are talking about that people eating dogs? Dude, I'm sorry, that was just a little throwaway side note for the thing because like you were making the point where it's like the patriarchy, if we can get women fighting amongst each other, we can keep doing like, we can keep doing our, well yeah, we can keep taking our stuff. So I feel like it all comes back to musical fucking chairs, man. Like if we are, if we can, instead of living in this mindset that we need to compete and tear down and that is deep into this thing, like, man, there's enough chairs here. Like when you realize, you know, when I was Mormon, I always, like when you had a gathering of people, we always had to be playing a game. You couldn't just sit around. There's always had to be a competition. know, we always had to be doing something. Now it's like, love when you just, I mean, my best nights are when people are over and we're just chilling and shooting the breeze and drinking a glass of wine and playing guitar. Like, that's the, those are the best nights, man. Yeah, dude, the... The best nights are when everyone has a chair and we're chilling and we're chatting and we're in each other's company. Not when we're playing, yeah. the games thing cracks me up, man. Like, what is it? Like, I know that we shit on, I know, I know, no, no, no, no, that we shit on Mormonism because it's what we know, right? It's what we are. But dude, what is up with those games? Like, what is up with that fucking obsession with playing board games? have you played the new fucking Settlers of Catan? No. Are there more than the one? Yeah, there's 48 different, like, expansion packs. And it's like, what are you talking about? This is great, because you're talking to someone who I love board games, man. I love them. But then you brought up the question, like maybe part of why I love them is because everyone's gathered around a table. And yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, can still be active because, know, you never want to people to just be sitting around being idle because if people are sitting around being idle and just chatting it up. So like I told you, someone might accidentally be like, I don't know that I don't know what the thing with God is. Like you don't want that to be happening. Right. So it's like, no, you got to be buying wheats and like trading shares of wood, you know, with people, you gotta be playing like. Mormon monopoly dude settlers of 10 is Mormon monopoly and by the way I don't know what the fuck is wrong with just playing regular old monopoly It's still the same things like world domination and like try to fuck everybody over like it's speaking of scarcity It's like try to build your own Empire and you you only win monopoly when everyone else goes bankrupt That's the only that's the only way to win monopoly by the And by the way, as soon as you have a little bit of an edge in Monopoly, you usually end up winning. As soon as you get that, because that's what happens in, as soon as you get richer, as soon as you get a little bit richer, you usually win. It reminds me of, so before we started the podcast, when we were, I went to two different 40 year old birthday parties. One was with Eric, our friend Eric, has that been on the thing? I was there. And well, no, this is when you didn't go to this one when. this is when it was a 40th trip we took, and it was Eric and his wife and me my wife, we went up to Oregon. And if you were if talked to a Mormon and ask him, like, what what did you do? They probably were like, you didn't do much. Even though like we did, I mean, we went up there, we hiked, we went on some hikes during the day. We ate some good food and we chilled at night and chatted and drank wine and smoked weed. We did mushrooms one night, but we just kind of chilled and we're in each other's company. And I came home from that being like, I, at the time I was like, I'd never felt more myself. Just, this was like, felt happy, felt content. Then I went to this other 40 year old party, a getaway. I'm out. And it was with Mormons who I love, a bunch of Mormons, but man, it was golfing. And then we would go, we would sneak over to Wendover and we'd gamble. And then we would like, or not Wendover Mesquite, whatever, they're both the same. Yeah. border towns for Mormons to gamble. And then we'd be back in the place and we're like, we have a, we're doing a competition. We're doing a competition with games and we're doing, then there's, you know, Rupert floats and this and that. And it was just like, everything was filled with something. We couldn't just fucking be. The only time we could be is when we're driving around a golf cart, you know, or whatever. That's the closest we got to being or sitting at a craps table. But that was still, it was involved, there was a game involved, there was something else to keep us occupied, something else to remove us from the presence of each other. And it's just an interesting dynamic with the scarcity. I'm not doing these from my home anymore, dude. This has been... gotta say I love you there in your home. Yeah, I feel like it brings a different energy to it. do. dog is driving me crazy. He keeps, okay, right now he's standing at the door looking at me, tapping it with his little paw. Can you hear it? Fuck. He keeps tapping at it. So I sneak over there and open the door. He looks at me. I'm just like, okay, bro, you're toast, man. I feel like it's had a more relaxed feeling with you home. I like it. We just had the one internet hiccup, you know? We just had the one internet hiccup, that's fine. I have those all the time. Yeah, that's true. I just had the one. Yeah, it good to... it was finally on your end, a little in... Yeah. better, I guess. Remember in the early days when it was like, we would try to do it and it was just like constantly frozen. Yeah. I think we're there. Well, I think we're already there, man. I think I like the way hit on scarcity. think I just love where we went with this, man. Do you want to do want to lead us out with the song? OK. Didn't want to know if you want to do a closing number, you know. want to do the closing hymn. You know the other thing about like it's a new picture of me basically. I'm so used to the picture of me on the screen from my office because of work and because you and I talk all the time. So this has been like, know, got things in the background and I'm at a different angle and I look a little grungy. I look little, I kind of look dirty like all night. like I showered today, didn't I? I look kind of dirty. yeah, out in the mountains. Look at that. good picture. I do wish that I was still outside. That was a beauty, beauty. I'm not kidding you, the fucking dog is now in here and he's scratching to get out of here. I'm gonna go f Just tell them to be man. Just tell them just yeah, just be here now All right, love you, I know, I know, sorry Mike, I forgot we were... stay on, stay it open right now, because you're only like 60 % uploaded, so. forgot we were still recording, sorry.