I Think I'll Try Defying Gravity: Substances and Letting Go (#194)

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Episode Summary
In this conversation, Doug and Mike delve into topics ranging from microdosing LSD and the importance of rituals to the cultural impact of the musical Wicked. They share candid reflections on their relationships with various substances—caffeine, alcohol, ketamine, and psychedelics—emphasizing the significance of mindfulness, set and setting, and surrendering to personal growth. This dialogue is a thoughtful exploration of creativity, intentional living, and the lessons learned from both practices and accidents.

Key Takeaways

• Microdosing requires careful measurement and a mindful approach.
• Rituals hold significance in grounding practices and experiences.
• Wicked has made a lasting cultural impact, though Defying Gravity is often considered overrated.
• Set and setting are critical factors when using substances for personal growth.
• Reflection and intentionality can deepen understanding and enhance creativity.
• Letting go is less about achievement and more about surrender and relaxation.
• Ketamine can help access suppressed emotions and unlock creative potential.
• Daily mindfulness can help manage stress and encourage balance in life.
• Creativity is often sparked by inspiration but can also emerge from accidents.
• Being a vessel for creativity involves allowing flow and staying present.

Chapters
00:00 Exploring Microdosing and Its Challenges
06:04 The Cultural Impact of Wicked
11:53 The Length of Modern Musicals
17:55 Reflections on Personal Relationships with Substances
25:02 Rethinking Caffeine and Its Role in Our Lives
31:18 The Spectrum of Substances: From Ketamine to Mushrooms
48:50 The Bufo Experience: Letting Go and Surrendering
01:00:02 Mindfulness in Substance Use and Daily Life

Transcript

0:00

things that's kind of funny is that I've been, you know how I've told you I've been making the micro dose LSD things. So a lot of that requires trial and error. Yeah. I think we're doing, I think we're doing fine on lag, are we? Are we not? Mine, mine just for, okay, here we go. Now I'm back at 90 something percent uploading for a while there. Mine was at zero. So I was like, is it even recording, you know, type of thing. anyway, so I've been doing trial and error on that. And, you know, some days it's like, that was just totally imperceptible. I got to push it up against the limits of it being pers like of it just being perceptible and then take it back a little bit of a notch. And today I'm a little bit above the line. Hi. I'm like just just like a tiny little bit of them like. yeah, how do you measure it again? How do you do it? Well, I'm just, I'm using like a tiny little bit of vodka and then distilled water. And so, you know, I just make my, I just make my little solution and then it sits for a certain amount of time. And then I, and then I try to measure out what that produces, you know. But you measure it out like in a like a little measuring cup. Or what? Yeah, OK. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I yeah. So like I what I mean by that is I'm at a place right now where like like 15 milliliters is like the right amount for a micro dose for one that's like for so 15 milliliters are pretty small. You know, if you think about like those little syringes that come with kids medicine. So it's like. At 15 milliliters, I don't feel it. Today I'm a little bit higher than that. So I have been kind of feeling it, not to a point where it's been incapacitated or anything like that. you know what mean? Yeah, I did. I guess I tick-tack or typically do 10 to 12 milliliters. Is 100 like a full tap? Yeah, yeah, so well, it might well, guess it just depends on the I guess it depends on what somebody is working with, right? Because people could have like a people could have like a tincture or they could have like any kind of thing. Right, like like a like a typical like LSD tap would be like a probably like 100 or 150 micrograms, right? But then it's but then it's like getting liquid. It's a whole thing. Yeah. And I and clearly I don't fucking understand it. So I'm just working on it. put mine in a Purell bottle and then I squirt it in my mouth. So do you find, cause it's like a pump, right? Like the little pump deal. I mean, you clean that thing out like crazy, I assume. Do you find that the pump dies out on you? Well, I find that sometimes I don't get a good squirt. And so then it's like, well, then did that squirt count or not? Yeah, dude, that would be, so that's why I try to keep mine liquid and I have little, like I have little sacrament cups about it. Do know what I mean? Like literally, I like it. I like that they're little tiny sacrament cups, cause it's like a little bit of a, yeah, little bit of a thing. Plus it's a sacrament as members of the Divine Assembly. We're talking about measuring out our sacrament. Yeah, because you want to be specific with that shit, right? As far as like how the sacrament works. And you want to not like, you want to get all the words of the prayer right and not miss a word. Yeah, dude, can you imagine some dipshit saying the body instead of blood on accident? No, send him back. Back to square one, bud. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. You're back. You're done. The Lord has no idea what the fuck you're talking about now. My God. God is such a little bitch. It's just like, what did he even mean by that last one? I mean, I get ritual and the importance of ritual. But is that a step over the top? Do other organizations do that? Good question. mean, I guess probably, right? mean, like if you think about like, like, like think about any sort of like spell, like, right? Like you got to say the words dead on for that. Like, you know, you're reading out of the book of shit, dude, I'm talking wicked now, you know, you're reading out of the book of spells or whatever it is. it's like, yeah, you got to say those words dead on or the spell doesn't work. The animals, the monkeys won't get wings or whatever. You know, I don't want to give spoilers to wicked, but The monkeys get wings out of it. Spoilers for the Wizard of Oz from 1942 or whatever. The monkeys have wings, you idiots. What is the statute of limitations on spoilers? Yeah, dude, because like, yeah, what is that? That's, that would be fun to try to track down, right? Cause obviously we could do stuff like with, you know, star war, like there's big things, you know, how far back do you go? Like fight club is, is fight club is 25 years newer than star wars. Can you, can you spoil fight club? I think that's past the statute of- I think it's like... What about, okay. What about the sixth sense? The sixth sense is after fight club. So, so when can, yeah. if you encounter someone who hasn't seen The Sixth Sense or hasn't seen Fight Club, you don't want to spoil it for them. the same time, if we're going to talk about it, we don't need to give a spoiler alert before we talk about those two movies. Right. Yeah. And I don't think we need to give spoilers about wicked either. You know what I mean? Like wicked has been the books. I remember reading the book when I was dude, that book is probably, I think I read that book before my mission. So wicked's been around for 20 something, 25 years. think the book's 95. And then the musical. Well, I think I saw it lately. They're talking about the book was 95 and the musical was 2001 or something. I think I saw some graphic on it or something. Did you remember when Wicked came out? Like that thing was the hottest shit in the history of the world. Like up until Wicked, was like, listen, there's basically like, there's basically two major musicals and it's the Phantom of the Opera and Les Miserables. Now I know all the musical people out there being like, Doug, what about Such a Session? You've forgotten, you know, Starlight Express and The King and I and Cats. I get it. I'm saying that up until Wicked, I considered there to be two musicals and it was Les Miserables, and the Phantom of the Opera. And then Wicked came out and I was like, shit, there's now three musicals. Like that's how significant Wicked was when it came out. You know what mean? kind of launch a rebirth of like a new wave of musicals kind of. Maybe. But Wicked It was a funny one for me because you know how into musicals I am. So I actually saw it with the original cast in New York with Kristin Chenoweth and yeah, yeah. like, yeah, dude, she's so good. and, but, I, and I loved it. I walked away at me and like, wow, that was really good. But I didn't then listen to the songs on repeat or I didn't go buy it back then. It would have been like buying it on or finding it on Napster or something, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Dude, wish that our, I kind of wish that we were in that era. Like I wish that our podcast was only available through illegal download through like Morpheus.com or LimeWire.gov or whatever it was. mean, Mormons and Mushrooms should be. We've talked about doing the Mormons and Mushrooms underground. We should. we're the underground, but also you can get us where all of your favorite podcasts are found. You know? but I didn't, so I didn't ever like binge the music afterwards. The music to me was kind of like, meh. mean, there's a couple of good songs that really stuck with me. like the ones that like, I have been changed for good or something. I think that's maybe in the second act. but like Define Gravity, I was kind of like, meh. I still feel like that song's meh. Dude, Mike, I'm so glad that we're talking this way because I couldn't agree more and we're probably going to get run out of town for saying this, right? Well, I'm sticking to it. Now, to be fair, whenever that last line comes on and she's like, and if you care to find me, look to the Western sky, I get chills every fucking time. So, okay, I'm going to give it that. the rest of the time until that, it's like, there's no hook to it. The lyrics are meh. I get that it probably speaks to, you know, I can relate to the lyrics, you know, like, So it's not like the lyrics are unrelatable to me. Hold on a second. When you say, when you like sort of like hold your hat in your hand and sort of like toe an invisible dot on the floor and say sort of like sheepishly, I can relate to defined gravity. Who do you, well of course, what are you talking about? Who do you think that's for? Well, the only reason why I brought that up, not because like a specific set of people, but I was just being, I was going to be like, okay, but maybe, maybe the lyrics don't speak to my journey at all. And so if they did, maybe they'd resonate with me more, but I'm like, no, I think, I can really relate to the lyrics. just don't. This, it doesn't do much for me. And even when I re-listen to it and re-listen to the new recording of it, which I did once, I saw it on TikTok a couple of weeks ago. Someone was like, dude, when you hear this new recording of whoever the new woman is, and so I listened to it and I almost just skipped forward to the end, but I listened to the whole thing. Well, that song is so long too. By the way, okay, I guess this is just us talking about Wicked for a few minutes. Is that okay if we just keep talking about Wicked? I can't tell you how much I agree with you and I think Defying Gravity might be the most overrated like block, like banger, like the most overrated big song from a musical that I can think of. Because like other than I just might try defying gravity like that other than that line. Can you OK, and then you did the one of like, and so if you want to find me, look to the western skies. Can you say another word from that from that song? No, I think I'll try to find gravity. Just make up all these things to be like, gravity. Yeah, no. I'm defying gravity. It's like, okay, we get it. Just get on your broom and fucking... Fuck off! Maybe I'll try... No, really guys, I'm gonna really try it. Next, I'll... on the slide, defying gravity. But you saw the movie. Did you love it? No. So I saw the movie. First of all, everyone that's in the movie is amazing. It's absolutely incredible how people can sing so well. don't know how, I really don't know how people can hit notes. You know what I mean? Like it blows my mind. And just because you have something that's gonna make $3 billion and you have performers that can hit every note in the entire songbook. That does not mean that you have to subject me to being in the fucking movie theater for three and a half hours. Like the actual musical Wicked isn't three hours long. And this is just part one. You know, it ends with, you know, well, it ends with Defying Gravity. So if you're familiar with the musical, ends with her, okay, I'm now the Wicked Witch and I'm flying off with my horde of monkeys. It's like, okay. And we're only halfway over now. It's been three hours. I've been in this theater for four because we had to get here early. We had to get seats. We had to watch 33 minutes of previews. Then we had to watch that weird. Do your theaters have that weird Nicole Kidman commercial? yeah, one where she was... Is it her? Or is it an AI Nicole Kidman? I can't tell. Dude, what is going on in that commercial mic? You know how we're going to try to make Nicole Kidman relatable? We're going to have her put on this like diamond studded pantsuit and wander through an empty movie theater that we've like, we've chased off all the riff raff and, and, and urchins. And she's going to sit alone in a movie theater pretending that she's paying attention to the movie that's like on the screen. And it's just like, What's what are you advertising? We're already in your fucking theater. What else do you want from me? I gave you my money. I bought my popcorn. Here's my little soda. My kids are loaded to the hilt with fucking nerds and candy and popcorn. What more do you want, Nicole Kidman? I have given you everything and you still are are demanding I give you more in this diamond studded pantsuit of yours. Eat shit and die. do they think that this nostalgic play is going to make us want to go to the theater more just by like it? Because it's like a play on the nostalgia of the theater experience, which by the way, I love the theater experience, but you don't have to convince me I'm there in the theater. I'm here in the theater. I don't need to watch Nicole Kinman stomp through puddles to get into the movie theater. I already did all that shit. I'm here. You're preaching to the choir at that point, you know? Seriously, dude, you pass on the collection plate to the fucking choir. It's like, do you guys believe in Jesus? And they're like, yeah, we're singing the fucking songs. What do you want from me here, dog? Anyway, I don't know how I got off on that tangent, but my point was Wicked is Wicked is amazing, but it's way too long. And it's also I also when I sniff out a cash grab like that, it takes me out of it, dude. Like they're already I'm already going to pay them all the amount of money that they that they want for this thing. They're already gonna make a billion and a half dollars. It's gonna be the biggest fucking musical movie of all time. And it's like, who cares, man? Have some integrity with your art. You really need to have a six hour thing to tell the story of the Wicked Witch of the West? you know, I am glad they're doing it in two parts in a way, because like one of my favorite musicals is into the woods. And I like, I really liked the Disney movie, but they, they short changed the second act and the second act is the best part of the whole play. They, they rushed it. Okay, so now you're saying that they needed to make Wicked. Mike, Wicked is going to be over five hours long. Wicked! not saying that they need to make it over five hours, but I'm saying that maybe combined three split in two movies, you know what I mean? To do justice to it, maybe. I still am sniffing that out, I'm, I... every time I watch Into the Woods, I'm like, the second act, you just rushed over the whole thing. I would have rather than like stop it, do a second movie. And then, you know, because you can't do a movie over any movie over, especially in a theater over two and a half, two hours and 45 minutes. I mean, even Lord of the Rings, I was like, come on. Get to the point, guys. Yeah, but I mean Lord of the Rings, that's the one exception I'm going to make. Yeah, mean, okay, same. I think we're on record as being pro Lord of the Rings. I mean, we literally call our band Bombadilio. Like, yeah, we'll see you this. But like I or bring or bring back intermissions like they do it in them. They do it in the theater. Like when I say the theater, I'm talking about like plays and musicals and stuff like that. So make the movie however long it needs to be and just give me a give me an intermission. Give me a chance to stop fidgeting in my seat next to this stranger who is quietly singing the song under her breath. Give me a minute. Give me a minute to go away from her so that I don't like, so that I don't like sneaky elbow her in her ribs. You know what I mean? I, you know, whatever. Have we lost all our listeners now? they going to be like, are we? no, I don't mean that. I just mean the fact that we don't like it. I haven't seen Wicked yet. on record, could go see it love it. And maybe I will. I'm going to probably see it this weekend. And I'm on record as saying, look, don't change anything about, if you were gonna see it, go see it. If you were not gonna go see it, also use this as like further evidence that you don't need to go see Wicked. But if you were gonna go see it, you're still gonna go see it. So what I'm saying is, Mike, I don't think we've lost anybody. Maybe they just think I'm an asshole. We'll see it in the Spotify comments, which by the way are turned on now. I didn't realize that like, would get these notifications, like you've got Spotify comments and I go try to find them and I couldn't find them. But then when I went to go see our like Spotify wrapped for the podcast, it's like, you've got you, so many people commented during the year. And I went like where, and so I went to a section which had all the comments and I had to like approve them. But then I switched the thing. We're like, no, I don't want it. I don't need to approve the comments. So by the way, if you comment on this episode, it will just pop up. I don't need to approve it anymore. but there were some delightful comments that we'd missed over the year. I'm, it, can you send them to, I have no idea. When you sent that to me this morning, I was like, there are comments on Spotify? Like, I don't know, I don't know how I would go comment on a thing on Spotify. as you can do it now, just do it at the end or just at the bottom. You just type in a little comment. It's a great thing. I don't think you can comment on songs, but could you imagine what would be with the comments under a Taylor Swift song? Dude, it would break. That's yeah. No wonder they don't allow comments under songs because it would, the internet would break down. would be like, Hey, we ran out of internet. There's too many comments on the Taylor Swift songs and we're out of, we're completely out of internet now. All the server farms everywhere would just be filled with comments on Taylor Swift's songs. Wait, ran out. Yeah, Taylor Swift, she just has so many goddamn songs that people kept commenting on them like, no, I think this one's actually her best one. No, you're full of shit. The other one's her best one. That's what it would just be people fighting. man. So I want to talk about a couple of experiences that we've had recently. Is that cool? Yeah. was like, where do we go from here? we want to break? Yeah. Let's go out to the lobby. Let's go. getting a little distracting to anybody else's? Like I'm such an asshole in the theater. I truly, if someone brings out their phone for a nanosecond in a movie theater, I'm like, all right, bro, step outside. I'm going to like do the old timey thing of like rolling up my sleeves and like putting up my dukes. the fighting Irish guy, the Notre Dame mascot. Like if I see a light, like if I see a light for less than one tenth of one hundredth of one second. I am instantly like, get this piece of shit out of here. Get him out of here right away. Well, you've killed the dream. You've woken up from, know, the... Nicole Kidman, you would say, probably. I am trying to enjoy this silver screen and people are like lighting up their little mini screens. You've ruined the magic of the silver screen and Nicole Kidman would be ashamed of you. How are me and Nicole Kidman supposed to suspend our disbelief if you idiots keep on pulling your phones out in movies? We're trying to wa- Nicole and I are trying to watch a movie here! Well, that's why Nicole gets her private theater. That's what she does. She's good. it's the one, it's the one little diva thing that I do, but I ran out entire movie theaters because I just love movies so much. And they're like, well, can we film this? This sounds like a great commercial. She's like, I only agree to you filming this if the only time somebody can see this commercial is if they're in the movie theater. Like I, it matters so much to me that I only want people who share my love of watching movies in the movie theater to see me watching movies in the movie theater. I mean, genius. But what are these experiences you're talking about? Sorry, I'm just getting us on track. sorry, Are we on a time? Are we on a crunch here? Do we have a schedule? No, I just realized I didn't have anything to say. If anyone out there is wondering, how does Mike express when he's tired of Doug's shit? You just heard it. Like that, it just happened. All right, Doug, move along. What's the next thing? Like, what are you really trying to say here? Because you're now tirading about Nicole Kidman. All right, here's what want to talk about. So you have to speak to your own experiences, but you were doing an experience the same night that I was like... trying to bundle up for a good old, like a good old winter's nap. Right. I got a little high. I got a little ketamine in me and then all hell broke loose where there was a blizzard going on outside and children, children were driving past my house to come like they were driving to my house to come hang out with my kids. And suddenly my daughter comes running in panicked and she's like, my friend just went off the road and it's like, tuck in the ravine. And I was like, wait a here. Is this really happening? Like what's going on? Is this really happening or am I just tripping? And so I had to like bundle up and go out and I'm telling you Mike, that was an experience. Doing that when I was in that state of mind, like getting in my, like I had to pull people out of the ditch basically, cause there's this whole snowstorm going on. And I'm happy to say that I was. not incapacitated enough. it made me learn a really valuable lesson of like, look, man, you've kind of taken for granted the concepts of set and setting. That's the first thing that we ever talked about. Remember when we were so worried when we started this podcast, we were talking about like safety. We were talking about doing it like in safe places with safe people. We were talking about like planning ahead. And then sometimes it's like, I need a little reminder to be like, dude, you can't just willy nilly. get going on this type of stuff. It's been a good, it's actually been really good for me ever since then. think this is a good, maybe we have a chat about this because, you know, I've reflected a lot on various relationship to substances lately. I did it because I did, and I can talk about my experience. I did a, Bufo experience and leading up to it, there's a Dieta that he wanted four days. I did a solid three maybe. Or maybe they wanted like five days, but like had some things, you know, holiday things the weekend and you know. so I didn't, but I did a solid three days and realizing how different substances affect me. even, even, we'll even start with coffee. Like, the word on Mormons on mushrooms. And I know we laugh at the silliness of the word of wisdom and going to hell for drinking a cup of coffee. but like, I wish by the way I know Mormons would balk at that statement going to help her but not being able to get a temple recommend for drinking a cup of coffee. not adhering to the word of wisdom. That is a temple recommend question. and most bishops would, I mean, most bishops, when I was in the church, maybe it's changed now, but most bishops, if you told them you were drinking coffee, would not give you a temple recommend. I typically drink two cups a day. I'll drink one in the morning and then one after lunch. And sometimes in the weekends, if it's after a night of drinking, I'll have three. So a fair amount, but like not crazy amount. But even with that, I was so tired the next day. So tired when I... gave up coffee. And this happens to me anytime I'm about to do a ceremony and get off it. Like, I know I'm going to have the next day, I'm probably going have some headaches, I'm just going to be exhausted, but then I'm going to feel relaxed and I'm going to sleep well. And realizing how much caffeine is a... It's... We don't use it with intention. We use it with the intention of, shit, we got to get up and work every fucking day, you five days a week. And so it's the, it's a fuel for capitalism in a way. It's to get us in like this doing state instead of being state. Not that I'm not, it's just, but I want to be more mindful of when I drink a cup of coffee now. And when I'm, you know, and I want to use even drink caffeine more intentionally. Where if it's like, yeah, I do want to be productive for this next few hours. Okay. Or. Or if I'm just out with someone like, hey, a cup of coffee sounds nice today, kind of deal, but not make it a part of my morning ritual. And I'm not saying this is, everyone should follow this. I'm just saying this is just my relationship to coffee at the moment. So it's even made me, so even to coffee, it's made me kind of rethink some things, but then I started going through other things. You we've talked about like our love hate relationship with alcohol. I think overall it's been a net benefit. in my life, but it's like, it's, there's been times when it hasn't, but you know, overall, think as a, so it just the, the amount of cool, fun experiences I've had with drinking, the amount of social connection I've had with drinking the, I think alcohol helped me get in touch with my grief that I'd been suppressing for a long time. but it's also has its dark side. And so it's. You know, we've talked about that relationship and I would put ketamine somewhere on that spectrum ish of like. Yeah, same. of I think ketamine can be so effective and so I mean, as a dissociative, it can be so helpful in helping people experience emotions that they would not normally want to experience because you're too in it. then but then when you get that little bit of separation, it's like, shit, I can feel this now and I'm okay feeling it. And and I think ketamine for music, any like medicine, to tune into music, but ketamine has like this vibration that just like helps me with music and songwriting and singing so, so much. And yet I find that even on nights when I have like these deep insights with ketamine, the next day, it doesn't really stay with me as much. Like, like similar to alcohol where it's like the next day you just feel like a headache. I don't really necessarily feel a headache with ketamine, but I don't really, that feeling doesn't stay. And sometimes those insights don't carry over and I want to just go in again. And it, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. I'm not trying to interrupt your train of thought. just, there's something interesting there about as you're, as you're talking about this things I'm thinking of, I'm thinking about, if your body like lit, you know how it's like, listen to your body. Like I always keep having to learn these stupid lessons. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, if your body is protesting, you know, so you think about like hangovers, you know, out with alcohol. or coffee's a really good one to talk about because it's like, I, you mentioned having a cup of coffee in the morning and then having a cup of coffee like maybe after lunch or something like that. If I have coffee after like the hour of noon, I can't sleep, dude. I cannot go to sleep. And so it's like listening to my body suddenly becomes like a, again, like I said, I... I get that everybody knows these lessons and I keep having to learn them because I'm so stubborn about learning these types of things. But if your body is shutting down after alcohol and you're having these day-long hangovers or whatever, maybe that's my body saying, hey, Doug, let's change our relationship with alcohol. Same with ketamine. If I'm having the next day when you're in the morning, there's almost that ketamine fog type of thing and it's like... Maybe that's my body being like, bro, enough's enough with this shit. Like be more mindful. And we've only named three things, but it's also like, what am I getting at the, I talk openly about the Maverick being my favorite restaurant. What am I getting at the Maverick? Where does that food come from? And am I just pouring it in there? Cause it's like, okay, let's fuel, let's fuel it and it tastes good and let's get moving. Or am I doing it? Cause I'm listening to my body and it's like, okay, well. there's probably people out there that would be like, listen, Doug, if you really listen to your body, there's no time ever that it would be like, how about a burrito from Maverick? How about a, how about crushing a couple of big old juicy hot dogs from the Maverick? Your body would be like, no thanks bro. on my watch. Anyway, so that back to what you were talking about about like, a re visiting or, or, or being open to looking at. my relationship with substances is something that's been heavy on my mind a lot lately, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah. And am I using them like you were talking about that set and setting? I mean, with the name warmens on mushrooms, I, I, I do feel like mushrooms and of course, every time, you know, we've talked about them, we talk about the importance of set and setting the importance of like, checking if they're right for you first, you know, a history of mental health in your family and, and, and, know, all the different precautions around it. But overall, I feel like the net benefit. of mushrooms far outweighs the risk and the potential downfalls of them on a scale that dwarfs any of these other, especially alcohol that we're talking about. And then I feel like a lot of the other ones kind of fall on some different spectrum. I feel mostly that way with doing an ayahuasca ceremony. I think more... It's more likely the overwhelming good over the risk is astra is enormous. especially in the right setting. I know I've heard some horror stories in different Iowas, you know, when people, different shamans are just shady and shady shit going on. like, if you're with a reputable shaman and, and people know how to care for your psyche, you're in, you're in, you're in good hands that way, which I've been in every one of the ceremonies I've done. Like, yeah, it's life-changing. and I like that even, you know, tuning into, what I found, so I haven't been drinking coffee these last couple of weeks, even after my Bufo ceremony. And I've been doing, I've switched it to chai tea, which is, which has caffeine, but it's like, you know, it's like starting the day with 40 milligrams of caffeine instead of 120. So you don't have that crash as much. I'm sleeping better at night. And I'm also realizing because I'm not amped up on caffeine, I'm not craving alcohol at night to like bring me back down from like this, you know? And I don't know, I've been feeling really good lately and I kind of want to keep it going, you know? Yeah, I hear that. the, I, using Ayahuasca is a really good, to me, it's like an amazing, it's a perfect example because you know, doing Ayahuasca is like, got to, well, even you just did Bufo. It's a good example. You have to prep for it. And then you've got to set aside time where it's like, look, I, I am going to be unavailable. I I'm going to be completely unavailable during this amount of time. And then you've got the. the experience itself and then the integration and the, you know, the days leading after, I or the days after it where it's like new perspectives or, or leaving just like a softening of some perspectives and you're journaling and like, I was cause not just some willy nilly thing that you just do, you know, like, like you wouldn't, you know, we, tell a story about our night, that whiskey street and then go into the reggae festival and doing mushrooms and it changed our whole life. but you wouldn't have that experience where it's just like on a whim. You're like, let's do ayahuasca. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's so, it's like, so it's such as like an intentional thing. And there's like the ceremony surrounding it and the, and the sacredness surrounding it, where it really does lead to these amazing, incredible experiences. And it's like you said, there are, there are charlatans and snake oil salesman out there that, that, do ayahuasca, know, that are like, Hey, come by and I'll serve you some ayahuasca. But I'm just, it's just, Using ayahuasca as sort of like a bellwether for all this is really good because it's like, there are times when I'll just be like, yeah, I'm just kind of in the zone and I might just have a little bit, you know, I'm just might have a little bit ketamine or something like that. I smoked some weed, but it wouldn't be fun to just smoke some more weed. you know what I mean? It's just like, and then it becomes the thing that I'm just doing to do rather than to figure out what's, how's it speaking to me? What effect is it having on my body? What effect is it having on my mind? What is it is impacting my life in different ways? And so all of this to say, like, I'm always looking for something to to feel guilty about or feel that I'm not I'm not I'm not doing enough or I'm not I'm not living up to some expectation. This is the one that I'm this is the one that I'm choosing to the path that I'm going down right now is like, OK, man, you got to pull your shit together because if it's not that it's going to be another thing for me. Do you know what mean? Yeah, and it's okay to be in a pendulum, you know, every now and then. I mean, even with Canvas, I haven't been doing much Canvas lately. And I've been dreaming a lot. So my dreams have come back. Like for a while there, I wasn't dreaming. And so it's been fun to work with my dreams again. But you know, I've been trying to write this Christmas album before Christmas. And I mean, I'm loving them. Yeah, loving it. I know, but it's kind of stalled a little bit. And then one night, like a few nights ago, I hit a vape pen pretty hard. And all of a sudden it's like, there's the inspiration. all of a sudden stuff starts... Like these blocks, it's like my creative blocks went out the window. But then I wasn't working on the Christmas songs. You know what I ended up doing? your songs came to mind. And so I started, I played through like a half a dozen of your songs and some of them in like just different ways. Like your mother song, I just started singing almost like a whole new tune, which I'm like, this is, think is a whole new. So now I'm trying to take that tune and write new lyrics to it. I think it might actually be a Christmas song if I do it. But it all started with the chords to your mother's song and me singing it in like, in whatever tune I was hearing because I couldn't, it was weird in that state. couldn't remember some things. Like I was, it was just, I had to sing it how it was coming out, you know, that goes sometimes. dude, you're on that. Like you're really on that lately of, something that exists can spark inspiration and birth something new. Like that's, that's the thing that we've talked about. think we've talked about on the podcast, but you and I have been talking about it. Definitely. Like you had that experience with David, you know, with David Gilmore, far as like the Pink Floyd type of thing. So yeah, please, please use any and all of my songs to make something, you know, different and better. And I, okay. I don't want to put it like a. I don't want to put that judgment on it, but you know what I'm saying, like to make more, to make more. I mean, it could be the Bob Ross to your monopoly, but you know what I mean? The Bob Ross version of it. You know, it does really get weird with that. know we talked about it in our last recording with Heretic, but we talked about it a lot sense of just like that spark of creativity and how it sparks more. And then it's like, okay, but now I own this little spark that came out of me. But then what it's such a weird concept. music rights industry. get why, you we had a long conversation where I was like, just blow it all up. Let's just like, skip our music out. Let's set up a, like a group or like an exchange where people can just share music and just like, build on each other's songs and change each other's songs. But I also get why, you know, in today's society and with in capitalism, you need to own You, your art, but at the same time, it's such a weird concept to think, okay, now I own this, but you know, so Neverland, for, for example, it, it came because I started playing this song from a Brazilian band called a Legion Urbana. I'm, I can already hear my accent when I say that, but Legion Urbana. lucky for you, I cannot hear your accent, and that's all that I care about is what it sounds like to me. like, it's OJ and OJ now ting luar tonight, or tonight, there's no moon and it's all about like yearning for your love kind of dope. And I started strumming that, but I was strumming it differently, but it started with their, the, the first three chords of their songs. That song became the first three chords to never land. Because all of a sudden I did an accidental strum because I felt a lot of time creativity is. on the accident. mean, you think of like evolution. We evolved because some accident happened and then, you know, it's a whole thing about, you know, a blackbird is a birth defect, but then it survives in the smog better in London and then everything, you know, that kind of thing. Same thing with like, I find with songwriting, it's like a lot of times it's just you, it's those happy accidents that birth something new. But then, you know, it makes me wonder, okay, if when I release Neverland, Could someone be like, no, that's just a derivative of this song. Where did their spark come from? It's all coming from source. Yeah, mean, I mean, geez, dude, we this is that's the whole point of well, it's not the whole point of heretic, but we talked we talked quite a lot about it in heretic, right? Where it's just like everything's in the area. Like there's only so many notes in music. You know, I someone once told me when it comes when it comes to songwriting, when I was trying to learn how to like, find the progressions that like sound good to me. She was just like, listen to a song you like and look up the chord progressions on it. and then just play that. I was like, okay, yeah, I guess I could do that. And that's, mean, that's what you're talking about with Neverland, right? lot of my songs that I write, it's because I'm filling a certain way or I'm playing a certain cover and I'm like, I love the feeling of this cover. I would like to evoke like a write a song with this feeling that it evokes in me. So you already have the chord pattern. just, it's just, you find a different melody, a different way to strum it, a different beat pattern to it. And a different song emerges, but you're using the same chord progression. Yeah. yeah, and so there's something about this whole like owning a piece of nature that came through you. And there's a part of me that's like, I want to decolonize that. But at the same time, you were really good at this because you're like, no, there is a value in being the vessel through which that came through. And especially if you're talking about like monetizing art or being an artist and sustaining yourself. And with, especially with all the vultures out there, I mean, all of the agents and, people who are looking for the next buck and the next, to, to latch onto the next cre- to the next Taylor Swift. I mean, Taylor Swift had to like, declaw herself from, from that. She had to get big enough to where she could be like, fuck you, I'm doing my own thing. But she had to get big enough to do that. Right. And, I don't know. It's just an interesting thought that I'm kind of sitting with. Well, yeah, I mean, you and I kind of went back and forth on it just as far as like conceptually, because it's hard to do. This is like everything we talk about, though. There's not like a, OK, this fits into column A and then the other side of it fits into column B. Everything is just sort of like mixed and there's shades of gray. mean, even the thing that we're talking about as far as like with different like substances. It's like, understand. Having said all of the things that I've said so far, where I'm like, I want to change my relationship and I want to be, I want to observe it more and I want to be a little bit more intentional and blah, blah, blah. I also understand why there are artists and creators out there who never come back from it, who never, get, who get into a substance and they never come back because they're, they're not only are they, not only are they chasing the feeling that comes from that, but they're also chasing the what it resulted like they're chasing the creative spark or having that creativity flow through them a little bit. Right. Like, so it's not just like sensory. It's like, it feels so good to, you know, do and be doing heroin. It's like also heroin produced this great song that changed my life and change. Like there's a lot to it. You know what I mean? And so for me, I equal parts agree. wholeheartedly with what you're saying about you can't own something that is just flowing through the ether of the universe. But also if someone else is going to exploit that, should have access to that, to how they utilize that. I guess that's, it's a weird, it's a tough conversation to have, right? Yeah, I mean, even recently with, I think Olivia Rodrigo removed one of her songs from TikTok because, the Trump campaign used it after they won. And, and yeah, if I wrote a song and then like the Trump campaign used my song to celebrate, it's not like, no, fuck you. No. Right, we wouldn't be like, well, it's just the universe owns, like the universe, it just came out. yeah, Trump can pluck it out and use it for whatever. There are some things that it's like, hold on a second here, right? There are some parameters and some boundaries. Yeah, it's weird. And copycats are everywhere. mean, you find it with like, people, it's like you have to protect your art, especially if you want to do that for a living. But then yet you need to have this relationship to the source. That's the oneness of everything that like to birth that art. And it's weird to call that mine, but like it's a... It's an interesting relationship. think we just keep talking about that. let's just keep talking about it. Let's use examples. like I've listened to our last episode. I've listened to the last three minutes of it about conservatively one billion times because I just love Pour Ourselves Some Cheer. I love that song so much. And Mike, I already told you this, but I played that song, not played the recording of it, but I played it for some people. And I was like, yeah, Mike wrote this song. And they were like, why is Mike not pursuing songwriting as his full-time career? That's what they said when they heard that song, right? And it came back to this exact fucking discussion that we're having where it's like, well, because it's complicated. You know mean? Because it's like, there's like some complex shit coming on there as far as that goes. By the way, that's the best compliment I could get. yeah, dude, I loved hearing it. Like I couldn't wait to pass that compliment on to you. As you know, I drunkenly texted it to you. Yeah. And I, same, immediately when we released that episode two weeks ago, I listened to like the first couple of minutes and I immediately skipped forward to the end because I knew I wanted to hear those songs and hear how they sounded on Spotify. And I don't know how many times I listened to them back and forth. I have a thing where I pretty quickly get tired of my own voice, but that song of yours is something about it, dude. It just kind of, I don't know. It sounds like Christmas to me. I don't have a better way to say that. Yeah, I guess that's a, I don't mean to hit the brakes on this whole conversation by just gushing on you. I could, I'm like, I feel the same way with Ho Ho Ho Xana. And you know what my favorite line in that song is, by the way, when you're like, when he's like, coming down the chimney and up he goes. Look up he goes. Yeah, it's like, there's a newborn babe in swaddling clothes coming down the chimney. back up he goes. It's just, I love that. I do like that line. and there's so I can't wait to do to record that one. And we got sleigh bells and everything going on in it. But. Yeah, so with that said, one of the things that, so we can get back to this if we want to, but I do want to just hit on the Bufo experience for a minute. Yeah, I'd love that. That it's been one of the most, one of my favorite journeys I've done. and it's, it's for anyone who's ever done it, it's hard to kind of explain what happens, but I was working with a practitioner who would kind of build you up to it. Like you'd take progressive doses. And what I love that, cause it allows you to kind of sit with the stories that are coming up and, and kind of each time go a little deeper, but the very last. I think I did like four or five hits. Now the first two were kind of small, the third was medium and the last two were pretty big. But the last one, completely, so in each one before that, I was kind of working through some issues, working through some things I was really worried about. I had such a felt concept of letting go that I've never felt before. Like it felt like every muscle tendon joint in my body was just like relaxed. I felt like I was just a puddle on the floor. And it felt like anything I could possibly worry about was just like evaporating off of me. And it's like, is this what letting go feels like? It's like... Don't try to control the story that's happening in front of you. Just relax and let the story play out. Engage with the story, but don't try to engage in a way of like, I want to manipulate the outcome or hold on like, I really want this outcome. so try to grasp on a certain outcome. Just melt. and And that feeling has stuck with me. Like I can access it. in times when I just feel like in the last week and a half since I did it, I don't know, it's just, there's been a lot of times when I find myself like trying to manipulate the story or trying to change the story or trying to like force something and then just take a deep breath and just like relax and let that desire to force just like, just let it go and just be like, I mean, being in traffic is a good way to practice it. Like if something happens in traffic and you're like, you know, and it's like, okay. And you know, you hear about that when we've read like the surrender experiment and like the untethered soul and letting go. But I was like, letting go is so much more relaxed than I ever imagined it was. That's so interesting, yeah. Wow. This is like good, this is good shit for me to hear tonight, Mike, because control, like control keeps coming up for me, you know? Even as we're talking about the, even as we're talking about our relationship with substances, I'm also thinking about how lately I've been. a little more intentional with like my exercise routine and stuff like that, you know? But I bring that up because it's me trying to force something. Like it's me trying to control something. It's not like I'm easing back into like a different routine in like a healthy way. It's like I'm trying to jumpstart my body and almost have like a like a rude awakening to my body because it's like, I can, if I can just, if I can just control this, if I can just like, you know, take it by the, take it by the reins. That's true about all the things that we're talking about. You even, even the, even my shitty take on like wicked and stuff like that. It's about me trying to control my experience here rather than just like what I'm hearing you describe as the letting go process is so much less. of a like, okay, now we're gonna dominate letting go. Now I'm going to master letting go. It's like a counterintuitive concept, right? Yeah, another thing to... So it kind of relates to this that I'm feeling and maybe you can relate to it. So I've done Bufo several times and I've never really gotten to that spot where it's like, I'm just in the oneness. And I'd always pictured it differently though. I'd always pictured it more in like a spiritual way where it's like, I'm like... my gosh, like I've made it, I've achieved it. And now I'm just like there in like the sun almost, right? And maybe I'm sure that experience exists. I'm sure people have it. I'm sure it's an amazing experience. And maybe I'll have that someday. But what mine was, was a complete melting into, it felt like opposite way. It felt like not something to achieve or not something to get to. It's just like... just fucking relax and let go. let it was like a relaxing into the earth rather than a being transported or to heaven or like achieving all these things, you know, to get to something. And it seems like a similar dynamic you're talking about maybe. End up from a felt sense? Sorry, I'm just, working my mute button because there's shouting going on over here. I don't know if you can very... I don't know. I don't know if it'll pick up, but... Well, okay, yeah. So I guess what I'm to answer, I don't know if I have an answer to your question because I don't know if I, I don't know if there is an answer to your question, but what I'm trying to say and maybe failing at is that there are certain things that I either try to, how do I say this? Like I want to master something or I want to like, I want to like fully experience that thing. And so instead of a natural, healthy, sustainable approach to it, I go overboard with it. So we're talking about like, I go overboard with my narrative of wicked. I go overboard with my use of substances. And when I say substances, we're talking about stuff as simple as like caffeine, stuff like that. I go overboard with my Okay, it's time to strengthen up this body. So we're going to like shock it into, into coherence. We're going to shock it back to life, you know, type of thing. And as I'm hearing you, so there's no, there's no mean understanding anything here. There's just me observing that as I'm hearing you describe your experience of, of letting go or your experience of becoming one with the, with everything, becoming one with the oneness, it's like, yeah. There's probably in that practice, in that exercise of learning to let go, it's not like a, okay, I'm doing it, I'm starting now, I'm letting go, and that's the fucking end of it. It's more of like a, wow, let me be more observant of it. You use the traffic example as like a good way to like sort of like in a pressure cooker, figure out how that can operate, right? But can I do it? when I'm interacting with my kids? Can I do it when I'm, you know, stressing about something in the workplace? Can I do it when I'm trying to find something to get down on myself about? Can I do it when I'm trying to, can I be more aware of it and observant of it instead of trying to make it a, an item to check off my list of to do things, of things to do? That's what I guess that's what I'm just trying to express. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just kind sitting with that for a minute because I agree. it's this thing of like, and when it's that way, when you frame it that way, it's like, there's no failure to it or something. It's like, it can just, you can change it in the moment. You can just like, okay. It's not, and even if you find yourself getting caught up again, you can always just be like, wait, you can change it right there in the moment. Yeah, I like, I like that. just hits that. That just hits me right in the, in the fucking gut, man. That my feels that I, just, you just said it in a way that I tried to say for like the last 10 minutes, which is like, it doesn't have to be some huge thing that you're eventually going to do. can happen. It can happen right now. And I don't have to force it to happen. Right. I have to like suddenly just be like, okay, letting go in three. two, one. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, it's kind of like, okay. where am I? You know, because it felt like everything in my body was relaxing. So it's just kind of like saying, wait, okay, yeah, my jaw is tight right now. And just kind of like loosen your jaw and then just kind of like, and you can do this as someone's talking to you and as you're paying attention. In fact, it can actually help you pay more attention to the person. And because you're not like, it's like, okay, this person's talking, I'm going to listen to them. Meanwhile, there's like a tension in my belly. I'm going to kind of just like let that melt. You know, like, let it just kind of relax as you're in being present to what they're saying and you're not trying to. force them, force what they're saying or force them, force the conversation somewhere in a way, or like you just, it's like a listening. I guess that's it too. It's kind of like relaxing and a listening and allowing a receiving and it feels, and it's shit we've talked about since we started this fucking podcast, but like, but we titled one of our podcasts, Let It Go, right? Yeah. And early on when we were both reading that book, the surrender experiment. but there's something even about it. That's like, it's such a, it's, it's a felt, it's a muscle that we're all always working on, I guess. And so I guess what I'm feeling like is lately I've been able to, you know, thank you to the ceremony. you know, it's that thing like. Because again, just to circle back to their conversation with substances, This complicated relationship with them, you know, we have. It's also... Some of these things are here to kind of like, to get all Mormon to bless us in a way. like, mushrooms, ayahuasca, ketamine, you know, alcohol at times, cannabis at times, tea, coffee, dried fruit, you know, like the earth is here and it's like. I'm having a hard time articulating this, it's like, so as mindful I want to be as about how I'm using these things, I still want to keep using them in a mindful way because... We can't do it alone. Even if you're like, I want to do things substance-free. Well, bullshit, you're going to drink water and eat food. You're not going to be substance-free. You can't detach yourself from this earth and from the mud and from food and from partaking. We are from the earth and we only sustain ourselves by partaking of the earth. And yeah, some of the things you eat will have more of an impact on, like some things are stronger than others. But every little thing will affect you in some way, from the maverick hot dog to smoking a bufo pen. Yeah, man. And all that said, dude, Maverick hot dogs sounds so good to me right now. And I guess that's for what I'm experiencing. I can't speak for your thing, but like from what I'm experiencing is that that's also part of the point for me is it's like, I guess I'm just trying to observe like that. This value judgment that I put on every fucking thing that I do, because there's also room for tying it on once in a while. You know I mean? And the fool, the fool comes out where it's just like, OK, man, I don't know where I'm going. And I don't know where I've been. I'm just going to I'm just going to be here and do this. There's room for that, too. All I'm trying to say is that this conversation has been really beneficial for me of just like, hey, can you can you maybe slow your rhythms down and just be a little more observant of what you're doing and why you're doing it? I guess that's kind of what's what's what's. That's what's that's that's where it's fitting in for me. So I'm gonna carry that into the theater this weekend when I see Wicked. Yeah, Yeah, dude, I listen. Don't get me going again on Wicked, but it's just man. Adina Menzel, let it go. Right. mean, she's she's come up a couple of times today, so she might be the she might be the muse of this particular episode, And I wish I could say I had another Christmas song to add at end of this episode, but the album's in process, but I need some and I don't have anything right now. Yeah, we got. Mike's got a lot. Mike's got a lot of things. Don't let him. Don't let him fool you. You have a lot of things, I know, but it's a lot of things that are like, just need... Yeah. And some of them are good. I really like some of them. But, you know. And even in that second one. be fruits falling from the tree, but they ain't a pie just yet, right? Yeah. even that second one you were sending me, was loving. Vote one. You sent one, it was like... Yeah. yeah, I know what you're talking about. That one's just like four lines or something like that. But you're talking about the one where it's like, it almost sounds like an Irish kind of vibe to it. you talking about like where it's like, I saw snow fall on the glens and sunshine in the valley and all that kind of bullshit. Yeah, all right. Yeah. right, well, you know, there's 20 days, 20-ish days till Christmas. So let's hop to it. So, I let's, I mean, I know we're talking about letting it go, but let's let her rip, I guess, also. Okay. I'm not gonna put pressure on myself. I'm just gonna relax and do it and see what comes out. Exactly. All right. Okay, buddy. Love ya. Ho, ho, ho, Hosanna. To you and yours. And, and, and a very, pour yourself some cheer. Now listen, when we talk about pour yourself some cheer, that could mean water. That could be mean tea. could be coffee. It could be booze. It could be anything. It's just anything that cheers you up a little bit. Right. Yeah. I said stop.