Maybe It’s My Nosferatu Era (#197)

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In this episode, Mike and Doug dive into a riveting conversation sparked by Mike's eerie solo trip to see the terrifying new Nosferatu movie—while high, no less! This opens the door to a deep discussion about fear, creativity, and how our media choices reflect and shape our inner lives.

Key Topics Discussed:

1. Mike's Nosferatu Experience
   • What it’s like to immerse yourself in a terrifying film while grappling with existential questions.
   • The surprising symbolic themes in Nosferatu and how they mirror our pursuits and sacrifices in life.
2. Exploring the Hero’s Journey
   • Reflections on the archetype of the hero, from Frodo to Neo, and how it resonates with our longing to matter.
   • The paradox of seeking external validation versus finding fulfillment through self-discovery.
3. Soul-Making Through Art and Expression
   • Doug and Mike discuss James Hillman’s concept of soul-making: engaging deeply with life’s ecstasies and heartbreaks.
   • The difference between creating for external approval and the fullness that comes from authentic, communal experiences—whether on stage, around a fire, or during a chill Friday night gathering.
4. TikTok and the Validation Trap
   • Navigating the highs and lows of sharing content online.
   • Why likes, comments, and views can never fully satisfy the soul.
5. New Year Intentions: Living Authentically
   • Mike shares a new ritual inspired by Doug: defining “I am” statements to align with personal truths and aspirations.
   • How these intentions tie back to music, community, and creating moments of true connection.

Transcript

0:47

For the first time in three weeks, I did have two drinks before we got on this recording. I should have like had a little substance, but I'm good. two drinks, it's amazing what three weeks will do, Including sober New Year's Eve, sober New Year's Day, sober Christmas, all that kind of two drinks wouldn't have even registered with me, but I can feel a little bit today where I'm like, I'm being cool. I'm pretty cool. It is nice. the worst is when you've had like a few and you're like, I'm not even feeling it. And like, what am I even doing? yeah. Well, and that's the right question to ask, Is what am I even doing? Yeah, when it just feels like I'm drinking, but it's like I'm not feeling anything and or this like, why am I not feeling something after this many drinks? Like I there's something going on with that. But but I also had a completely sober New Year's with I got sick, man. I was out last week. were like... You were almost dead, it seems like. Yeah, I was out for a good like five days, knocked me flat. So it's been nice in the last few days to be back in the land of the living. Although I did, before we hit record, I was telling you a little bit about my Nosferatu experience last night where. I can't believe you went to it alone. I mean, listen, you've seen the old, like the old, old, like Nosferatu, right? I've heard that this one is just like terrifying and disturbing. Yes, all of the above. And the worst part, and I don't know why I keep doing this to myself, I did this with heratica too, is I went super fucking high. And so it bends reality for me when I'm watching something that terrifying and high to where it's like... Like last night I was convinced. I watched it in downtown LA and I'm a quick from the apartment. I'm a quick like scooter ride away. Those, you know, those electric scooters, you can just write, you know. At some point they got to start doing some kind of laws or regulations around those scooters because I have been hot-dogging in the streets of like Austin, Texas Drunk as a skunk on those things like you those things are dangerous Well, the state I was in when I walked out of theater, I'm like, I'm Ubering back because I was worried that I, and it wasn't so much that I was impaired. It was, I was freaked out and I thought I was in the ghost realm. thought, okay. I, at one point watching the movie, I'm like, okay, I think we really are in the land of the dead actually. Like we are already dead and maybe we just have this illusion over our eyes that like once, like one of the rules of like this reality that we've been plugged into is that once something dies, it's dead. It doesn't come back. Now cycles happen. know, things get reborn and spring comes again and you know, leaves come back on trees and stuff. But if a tree, if I go out and poison a tree and it dies, that tree is not coming back in its form. But I was like, but maybe that's just an illusion, man. Maybe things are going to start coming back to life. And I'm walking out of the theater. like, I can just sense the realm of the dead. And I just need a newber ride home. Well, so I'm curious about that too, because wouldn't that be a little bit scary, telling them with an Uber driver and getting into a stranger's car and having them, like, what was that like for you? Was that not weird? it was pretty good. We chatted the whole time. He was he was a cool cat. We chatted. He was surprised I wouldn't go see the movie alone. He's like, dude, I don't see movies alone, let alone Nosferatu. He's like. that's what I'm trying to say over here. Like that's a little bit of a trip, man. Yeah, it was, it's a terrifyingly good movie. I just wish I remembered it. I need to go watch it again. Like I was so in my own head and my own realm through it. And even then it was like, I'm, I'm delving into my psyche with it and, do I have a hidden vampire that's just ready to come out now? Maybe now it's my Nosferatu era. with my vampire. I've told you how I feel like I've been a vampire sometimes. You know, when I go to concerts sometimes like, um, well, yeah, I'll go to a concert and it's actually happened like that, uh, techno rave I went to where, you know, half the time a woman will start dancing in front of me and expose her neck to me. you And she'll just throw her head back and like bare her neck in a way. and I sometimes I'm in that state where I'm just like, think she just, they, she wants me to suck her blood. I think that's just what she wants. And, but you know, I don't. the world is one of my favorite things. Like I never in a million years would be dancing at a place and have somebody come dance with me. And if they were like looking back and like kind of like backing it up a little bit or like kind of like side to side neck, I would never think to myself in the moment, is she bearing her neck to me? Cause she wants me to bite her neck and suck her blood like a vampire. Like I never would think that in my whole entire life. Well, it's a certain way she does it, you know? Hahaha! my gosh, By the way, I love you. kind of you kind of told me before we started talking, but you didn't you didn't tell it on this. Like you went to the theater to see because I saw Bob Dylan movie and I was like calling you like, dude, you got to go see the Bob Dylan movie. And so you went to see the Bob Dylan movie and you settled on Nosferatu. Like, dude, you could get high and watch the Bob Dylan movie. It'd be totally fine. You'd be like. God, I suddenly love Bob Dylan music. Like I've loved Bob Dylan since I was tiny, since I was born. You know, as you know, like, most of my, I either cover Bob Dylan, or I kind of sing Bob Dylan songs like that. I like that I write, you know what I mean? But, but for me, it was like, this is just right where I want to be. And I did this is a perfect spot. And I love this movie so much. And so I called you and I was like, better understand it, go see the Bob Dylan movie. So you go to the theater, you're like, Okay, Doug, I'm gonna go see the Bob Dylan movie. Are you good enough for that too? Yes. And that was after I'd had the edible too. so I first, I just stopped by a local pub, you know, by the theater and I got myself a beer, popped the edible. Then I walked over and I realized that just in the act of getting that beer, I'd missed the seven o'clock showing of Complete Unknown. And the next showing wasn't until like 1050. Dude, nobody wants to go to an 11pm movie. So there was like an 830, no Sforato. like, okay, yeah, that's the one. I gotta go back and see his other films like The Witch and I've never seen, no. Oof. I watched The Witch alone, because that's not, look, that's not something my wife's but like down for, you know? Yeah. The Witch is a good movie, but it's creepy as shit. Have you seen the lighthouse too? Okay. Yeah. Uh huh. Yeah. Same. The Lighthouse is one those movies where I'm like being stubborn about for no reason. You ever have that where some, like once in a while a movie will come along and everybody's like, you gotta see this movie, it's so good. The friends and family will tell you about it, internet will tell you about it. And then it's just like, well, I'm not gonna see it. I'm too busy for that. I don't have the time to invest in it. That's what the lighthouse is for me. That was me and Ted Lasso this whole up until this break. I finally binged it. I finally binged it and it was lovely. I loved it. was a feel good, warm hearted, a lot about male psychology, which is interesting. And I can relate to Ted in a lot of ways. Yeah, I loved it. And but yeah, I guess going back real quick to Nosferatu. I want go back and see this guy's other films because he, it was such a master of like creating a mood and an ambiance and to where it felt like you were in a dream and seeing dream imagery and just cut the, it just was so good. I know I was high as fuck, but like it was so good. And I just want to go back and see it because I want to know really what happened in the movie. I want you to see the witch. Honestly, think that you should like, the witch is probably downloadable or streamable somewhere easy. no, I might actually do it tonight and not get high and watch it. I'll probably just watch the witch. I would, listen, maybe I'm learning about myself here that like, I might be a little bit of a wimp when it comes to certain things because like, I'm not recommending you get high and watch The Witch. It'll fuck your brains out. It'll be like, shit, am I, wait, is this real? Yeah. what? You know what? It was fucking me with me last night where I really started to panic when I was watching Nosferatu was this thing. And maybe this is the Mormon in me wondering about, am I lowering my frequency by delving into the dark? You know, well, hear me out. So I started going to this thing of like, is this because a lot of the people, a lot of our good friends. And people I've met in like the medicine community really care about the frequency of the media they consume and the music they listen to. And I am not one of those people. but I'm like, well, if I'm thinking of the people I know who do that, some of them are like living on tropical islands. We don't have a lot of specific people now. Well, just mean they do have some of them have a pretty enchanted life. They have the right, yeah, they have the life that I kind of want for myself, right? It's like, fair enough. So maybe they're right. so I was kind of like, well, is that just because I can't give up this like scary movies? And, yeah, media that I like to consume and different songs. And when I write songs, I don't always want to write about love and light. Like I want to write about heartbreak and sex and other things, you know? you think that's part of the, so like, I guess for me, and obviously it's the way I do it to me is the best way to do it. Of course, every person should say that, right? The way I approach life is the way that works best for me. That's pretty obvious, you know? But I feel... I feel anger, feel macabre, like I feel inappropriate, I feel the the dirty, the vulgar, the joyful, the triumphant, the the happy the love the light. I feel all that stuff. So I feel like I want to I guess what I'm saying is like, I, I have an easy time talking myself into experiencing all that light life has to offer. Like I like Like someone makes a movie, like someone does a piece of art that captures, you you just said it, like where he does a good job of creating an ambiance and capturing a mood and using music and he uses like still frames. If it's anything like The Witch, like he just will stay on something and it's just like, this is disturbing me. Go to the next fucking scene, know, type of thing. For me, it's like I... I experienced all those emotions. That's why I like to listen to really deep, magical medicine music when I'm in the mood for it. But I'll also listen to Buck Cherry singing Crazy Bitch. You know that song? Hey, you're a crazy bitch, but you fuck so good, I'm on top of it. You know that song? Oh, shit, dude, it's such a good song. Yeah. No, I'm feeling you on this really strong. I mean, I do. you know, sometimes I feel like a vampire. like, yeah, sometimes I feel like a And, you know, it's one of the reasons why in my psychology coursework, I really resonated with James Hillman and his notion of soul making where we... Like all things are in service to soul or can be in service to soul and in deepening into life experience, like that should almost be the goal of any good therapy or any good healing modality or anything is that if it gets you to fully engage in life and the ups and downs in life and the it's heartbreaks and ecstasies. then that's, we're here to experience embodied existence. And so I feel you on that. And then in my state last night, I was like, but could my life be a little more magical and a little less like crazy if I just consume better media? I totally get it. I do understand that totally. Yeah. I even started thinking of like my, this is as movies playing. That's why I gotta go see the movie again. But I'm thinking of like, what? Yeah. I'm thinking of like my Mormon friends and family who are very much in a, are Disney adults, right? And their lives are pretty much like a Disney movie. I don't know. Just good point. like, like I, I, I've got, how do I say this? Like I've got loved ones, friends, family, everything in between that are just so devoutly joyful and happy and Mormon. But the, the, the, the, the seedy, ugly underbelly of life's realities, they're not immune to that. And they, and they go through it, man. They go through the. I'm thinking about some people specifically right now that are in absolute hell and their life is dedicated to Christ. And so it's, to me, we're all trying to convince ourselves, like it's the existential crisis, right? It's like we're all trying to convince ourselves that there is more than just the gaping maw of mortality and and the concept of things being finite and we we we overcome that through our belief systems and our social circles and the way we spend our time and our hobbies and the pursuits that we get into But but but that doesn't go away. That shit does not go away and it doesn't go away anymore for somebody who is like devoutly Christian, Mormon, Catholic, Buddhist, it doesn't go away for anybody. are people who have just, who maybe don't, you ever come across somebody who just doesn't have an existential crisis and you're just like, bro, what's going on in your life that you don't think about this shit? Yeah, there's people in my life who I wonder that about. but this is really, this is a good conversation for me. Cause I'm even thinking of like, you know, I've always been a big Lord of the Rings, Star Wars fan. but in watching those, it's not like my life was a grand adventure. If anything, it was like, I enjoyed watching those movies because it made me feel like. It was replacing a lack of adventure that I felt in my life. It was a yearning for an adventure. You know, the first time I read the Harry Potter series and you know, the, he says you're a wizard, Harry. It's like, it sparks that part of me that like, didn't feel like a muggle. But it was, it's calling to me, but I still lived. and still live in the muggle world, you know? And so there's still that yearning. And so it's not like because I'm reading Harry Potter, now I all of live in a magical existence. But there is a... That's interesting. Okay. Interesting. Okay. This will help me. Well, it's look, okay. Let's talk Harry Potter. Like. Are we cool right now with this conversation? Okay, good. I'm just making sure I'm taking us down the right track. I think this is a great conversation because everything is part of hero's journey concept. know, Joseph Campbell talks about it, but like everything from, you know, Luke Skywalker to Frodo Baggins to Katniss Everdeen, you know, from the Hunger Games. And what was that one about like Divergent? Remember the Divergent series, Maze Runner, like anything like everything fucking. the matrix, Neo, like everything taps into that thing of like, is this all there is or am I someday going to have someone validate to me what I know deep down that I'm kind of this special little guy? That I can't be boxed in to the four types that they sort me into in Divergent. Like I'm not gonna be just the one that's like, super brave and I'm not going to be the one that's super smart and I'm not I'm I'm divergent because I have a piece of all of those things in me right I I'm just I'm a special little guy it it's found in Mormonism when we tell stories about like man geez Louise man when you're up in heaven people are gonna be like I was around during you know the 3d fights and then people are gonna be like I was around I walked through the Red Sea with Moses and then people are gonna be like Everyone's gonna be like, what about you Doug? And you're gonna be like, well, I was alive during Gordon Bittner Hinkley's day and a hush will fall over the corridors of heaven and everyone will bow in my presence. They'll be like, wow, it was nothing walking through the Red Sea. You really solved it. You by not looking at porn during that 1996, 1997 senior year 90, you know, junior year. We're all in honor, we're just honoring you. So it's every good story starts with some, like starts with the protagonist finding out that they're part of something bigger and they're special and everyone has been discounting them and dismissing them their whole life. Mike, that's the human experience. It's not Savior Complex. It's not like the one and Superman Complex and Savior Complex. It's simply that. Life is fleeting and we don't matter in the grand scheme of things and we desperately fucking want to matter But then also, isn't there a flip side of that that we actually do? we are, so we are, that call, that hero's journey and the call to adventure. I feel like it's happened or is happening for me. And it's happened. And what I was craving before that was for it to happen. I if I were to respond to that I would say it's because you're not Outsourcing you're not externally looking to save the princess save the universe save the world save others You're looking inward to save yourself the The call the journey is in inward it's not super Mario Bros where you're going castle to castle trying to say the princess But that's that's what I that's what I believed about myself was that I wanted to sacrifice myself, a part of me, a piece of me to reveal that I'm magical or special or unique and that therefore saves others. Others gotta save themselves, man. This is the whole thing. Everyone's gotta save themselves. And the meaninglessness, like the fact that we don't matter is macro. On a micro... scale like individually to ourselves and to the people closest to us. Of course we matter. Of course we matter. was George Bailey, dude. It's a wonderful life here. Yeah, and I'm thinking in terms of... I think that's shifted. I guess I didn't realize how much that shifted for me like in the last few years. I mean, even starting this podcast, mean, part of the reason I felt like even starting Mormons on Mushrooms was, I want to share what I'm doing to heal. I want to share with others like what we've been doing with yoga and plant medicine and breath work, meditation, and feeling like I was almost on a mission to do that. And I think the last few years have taught me that... That's, people have to say themselves and people, and we want it that way anyway. Like I don't want an external savior. And when I deepen into myself, I'm learning more about what I like and what I love. And maybe that's my gift to share is just sharing what I love and just doing what I love. And that becomes the gift, but it's, I'm not doing it because it's a gift. It's just because that's what I want to do. simply by thinking that, by doing what I, by being my truest self, this is the thing that causes thought loops for me. By coming to terms with myself and, you know, exploring self-love and unlocking the adventure within, maybe that's what it is and that'll have an impact on other people. Instantly, I've fucked it up again. Thank you. Instantly, I fucked it up again. Why am I so concerned about the salvation of others? That one hits. Well, because of the answer. It hits because of what the answer to that question is. what's the answer? The answer is maybe if I can find a way to go into this burning bus in Brazil and save these children and die doing it, then maybe I'll matter to me. Then maybe to me, I'll be worthy of something. Then maybe I'll I'll count myself worthy. That's the only thing that, that's the thing that I keep thinking about. Myself Mike and I'm sorry that I used your example of being in Brazil But it's just such a it's such a clear example of like that story that you told years ago sticks with me and I think about it more I think about probably every day of like How many how many fucking burning buses do I need to go into? To prove that I'm work to prove to me. Nobody else cares that I'm worthy Nobody else gives a shit about my worthiness only I care about my own salvation And so somehow... it's heightened during that time. And I'm glad to use that example because I feel like that desire to, to be a sacrifice was heightened during that time because inwardly I was miserable. And I had sacrificed, it's almost like I, I didn't consciously know this at the time, you know, consciously I thought I was. doing the right thing and that I'm Mormon and that the church is true and... But there's a part of me that recognized that what I was doing was not making me happy. In fact, it was miserable. I was depressed. I was suicidal. At least suicidal ideation, I should say. recognizing the sacrifice to my own well-being I was making. So I want that sacrifice to count for something. If I'm going to sacrifice that, I want it to count. But to count to who? Yeah, well, I think I wanted to count. I didn't want my sacrifice to be in vain. Well, okay, agreed, same. But by the way, I'm not trying to speak at you, I'm speaking about myself. This is a thing I think about every single day. But I want it to count. Who's counting it? Who you talking about? Yeah. I mean, because even if you said like, OK, I want the world or whatever, but it's like, the world's I mean, people are. Yeah. external validation. Yeah. This is the stuff that, man, you know, I, okay. You know, we talk about a lot of stuff and we keep coming back to this type of conversation on the podcast. And for me, this is the thing that that fucked me up the most about my religious upbringing and it's not just my religious upbringing. It's my my American upbringing. It's my. You know, white. Upringing, it's my. Fear of failure like my success upbringing like all of it needs to I I need to. I need to. Validate it. with everybody else. I gotta validate it. Someone's gotta tell me that I'm a good and special little boy. Someone's gotta tell me that I'm worthy. Someone's gotta tell me that I did a good thing, that they love me, that I'm worthy. Someone's gotta tell that to me. And man, I'm not trying to blame all those things. It's my own sort of deal. But it's tough. That's the thing that I... grew up on was that I am going to make a difference. And therefore I better improve myself, not for me, for others. I better sacrifice, not for me, but for others. I better learn and grow and be successful and be a provider and be smart and read books and do sports and do things all for like living up to somebody else's ideal so that I might be deemed good and worthy. This is like a pretty, this is like a thing we talk about frequently, Mike, but it's always a fucking confession. I always feel like I'm making a confession that that's really what I'm doing out there. Yeah, and I feel you on it. but it is interesting that there's a paradox that I do feel like You do end up... helping people, changing people, influencing people, maybe influences in the right word you do, inspiring people. When you do, paradoxically, like as part of like the hero's journey and uncovering your own goal and uncovering your true self and uncovering what you truly want in the world. you do end up bringing gold back to the collective and back to your community. But is that the intention? No, in fact, it can't be the intention. That's the paradox is that it can't be the intention, but it paradoxically becomes the outcome of it. And like, mean, even, even again, this podcast as an example, um, of the most people that, know, if I take the different phases of life when I was a Mormon, a missionary, uh, professionally, the, the deepest and broadest reach I've had is on this podcast. And it's also been the thing that's been more closely aligned to me sharing my authentic truth in all of it. Now I have talked about there's aspects and the intention hasn't always been. and I think it might be a lot of what's happening on this podcast is kind of dream adjacent where it's maybe not my. I'm not fully living what my dream is, but it's close and it's, and when the more I just do it, when it's like, I want to talk to my best friend, Doug, and let's just chat about Nosferatu and what the fuck. It's yeah, so I guess I'm just sitting with that. That's also been. I guess I was going to repeat what we've been talking about. Well, it's working for me. Look, this is a topic. I don't know why and how it always becomes a topic, but this is a topic of almost every session I have in therapy. This thing we're talking about. And to the point where I'll use a couple of examples, where I feel like I'll express to Tracy ways that I'm trying to be more aware of and mindful of backing away from what I think other people think about me or what other people are judging about me or how other people perceive me. And talking about, you know, sort of like Buddhist, like Taoist concepts of staying low to the ground and staying almost that, it's almost like the humility thing within Christianity or human life, I guess. I don't need to pin it on Christianity. And then Tracy will say stuff to me like, well, but you might be a little bit full of shit because you are putting yourself out there. Like with the podcast, you're out there. With doing music, you're out there. She called me on the carpet, she was like, did you, you keep talking about how you don't want anybody to know your name and you got the... you keep wanting people to not, you know, know you or be seen. She goes, you have this like, you have this like thing about wanting to be small, but then you put your you put like you singing a song on TikTok. Like it's you, it's a video of you singing a song that you wrote and you want people to see it. And I'm like, yeah, that's a really good point. And I don't know how to make, I don't, I don't know how to come to terms with it. Cause I'm always saying to her, yeah, but like, There's layers to that stuff. I do want to art. I do want to share music. I do want to interact with people. And I think it's selfish. I think it's a thing that I'm doing because I need to do it. I want to share this with people, not because I want to. change the world or save the world. But then we always come back to it where it's like, well, is that real? that right? You said it's a paradox. It is a thing that is hard for me to completely wrap my head around, Mike, that I'm still, every single day, I'm still trying to sort of make sense of it. Because I can't deny that I am out there. I can't deny that I'm writing a song, but you know how it is. When you're like playing music and you're in the flow state and you're writing a song, you're not thinking to yourself, wow, think about how many people might like this song. You're not thinking that in the moment, in that state. Right? No, but there are some guys I'm in that state when I am visualizing myself on a stage and singing the song and having people sing it back with me. Like I do get that visual a lot of like, usually not when I'm in the process of writing it. Usually it's like right afterwards or like I'll be in the process of writing it then I'm listening it back on the headphones. And then I'm like singing it again. And then I feel a stage and people are singing it back. it's like, and, and that's where it's like, okay, there is an external validation part to that, but it doesn't feel, it feels different though. It feels communal. feels like an experience. feels like a, it's just like a collective. There's like togetherness that people are singing the same words and people are, are, are, are singing it in the way where it like the lyrics are meaning something to them and the tunes meaning something to them. And I mean, yeah, fuck. get there's an, it's, it's, it's complicated. Yeah, it's complicated is a really good way putting it. mean, it, we always, we always quote, you know, Whitman, we've been called Whitman since day one of this podcast of, I contain, do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself. I am vast. I contain multitudes, but you know, leaves of grass also contains the poem where he's talking about, you know, that the, that the powerful play goes on. and you may contribute a verse. Like there is something there for me of like, I want in this grand stage of life and human existence, I do have a drive to contribute a verse to that powerful play. Do know what I mean? I can't help myself. And is that a bad thing? Who wants to do that? Okay. I don't think it's a bad thing. But I do try to be aware of where my validation is coming from. That's the big part for me is like, where's the valid, what am I seeking? What am I seeking that I can't get from me? That's a good question. mean, a good point because like going back to TikTok, I, I've, we had that discussion where I kind of, well, one, our Instagram was, you know, disabled, but, but sometimes I don't like it. Like right after I post a video on TikTok or right after I'd post a reel on Instagram or something. Cause it's like, then it's like an hour later I'm there and like, okay, well, how many likes did you just get? Is anyone commenting? Is anyone liking it? It's anyone, you know? And so there is that desire to get that feedback and that validation and to have it be loved and have it go viral and have it get a lot of views and likes and praise. It's there. It's not not there. But that in itself, it's like not quite the thing because that I don't love the feeling of that. I don't even love the feeling of when it the ones that do pop and start getting a lot. I mean, it's kind of a rush. It's kind of fun. But it's almost like there's no amount that's enough. Dude, that's well said, Mike. Keep going on that. Please keep unraveling that. Even some of the bigger videos we've released and maybe they get 10, 20,000 views, it's kind of cool for us. like, oh my gosh, there's a rush of like 10 to 20,000 people have seen me play this song now. Maybe just for a second, because on TikTok they go really quick, but 10 to 20,000 people at least seen me pop up, right? And there's a little bit of a rush to that, but it's like, there's a desire for it to more. What about a hundred thousand? What about a million? What about a few million? What about, you know, and it's never, it's never enough. on, wait, but then only, only three people commented on that, you know? And it's like, oh, but I, even if there were a hundred comments, it's not, it's not enough. Man, this is such a topic, Mike. You are voicing something that has been undefined and rattling around in me for a while now. The opposite example that I'll use, I can think of two. I can think of two songs. I can only speak for myself here. My Christmas song, Ho Ho Ho Hosanna, it's not got any feedback. Like it's not had anybody be like, I, you know, type of message on Tik Tok or, know, we put those songs on Spotify and I, last I checked, I had six listens maybe like, you know, when you go to the thing and it's like six monthly listens. So I, I don't think anybody's heard that song, you know. Yeah. I don't care because it's a good song. That song is such a good song. It's such a good song. The same is true about my mom's song. I love playing that song and I love when people sing along with it, but I don't need people's validation because I know that song is a fucking good song. There are other songs that I need you to tell me, okay, Doug, you're a special little guy. It's okay. It's okay. This is a good song. You can play it. You can sing it. I need that from you. But there are some that I'm just like, I'm gonna play this one because it's so good. That's interesting. so if I'm comparing also, because I was talking about like, you putting on TikToks and like hoping for likes kind of deal and the feeling of that. But the feeling of like when we were at either something chill on a Friday night or something cool on a Friday night. And I think something cool on a Friday night, we had like 150, 200 people there. And it was interesting because before that you had been on to some retreat with a bunch of people who were there or some and you'd played Neverland. So then when I sang it at the concert, people were actually singing the words back and singing it. And it wasn't, it wasn't, I was completely full in that moment. And when we were in the yoga studio for something chill on a Friday night, we had like 60, 70 people there. I could not have been more full. Same. And it wasn't like this thing of like, I wish there were just more people there, more, more, you know? It was like, no, I am full, I am complete. And yeah, that's interesting to feel the difference of that. You came up to, you came up, I won some award and you came up to celebrate it with me and people, mean, was, people were so nice, so complimentary. It was so awesome. And because of what I won the award for, I left that experience feeling empty. I left that experience being like, is that it? But shortly before that, we had done something chill on a Friday night. And I left that being like, I am complete. I am full. This was so beautiful. I'm going to be able to spiritually trade on this experience for a while. I still am thinking about that experience. It was so beautiful. I can get into a zone of like, gosh, that was enough for me. Do you know what I mean? So even the same concept that we're talking about has different, it has layers, it's varied based on what validation I'm getting, how I'm feeling about it. That's really interesting to think about because it's like, there's a beauty in that validation or that external validation, what we're talking about, there's completely different feelings to it. And it's really getting me thinking of like, maybe it's a reflection of the action or the intention that I'm putting into it is also the fullness I'll feel after in a way or something. But it just makes me want to keep doing those types of experiences where it's like, it doesn't matter if there's 10,000 people here, 50, five. If we're around, you you're on your back deck playing around a fire and there's 10 people there. I felt incredibly full in those moments. I'm sorry, the sickness has come back here. And. Yeah, and so it's just getting me, it's just. mirroring back the experiences that I want to keep cultivating and It's actually inspiring me right now. full disclosure, as we're talking, I'm like, man, Michael, let's do some more of those things. Those are what make me feel the most alive. I have a pain in the ass sometimes to get scheduled and get our, you know, you and I lined up because we got full busy lives and all that kind of stuff. But Jesus Christ, man, this is the shit that's making me feel the most alive. And if it's making you like the most alive and me, you know, but like I'm talking about with you. Well, I am because I want to mirror this back. Here's what I was saying. If it makes you feel the most alive. I know, because when you are singing from that place, I feel it. So that's why I want to mirror back in that way. Like I, like I, I can tell when you're singing from that full place. Cause I feel full. and I wanna join in and I wanna, know. So anyway, I guess to 2025, I want more of those moments. Let's do it. Yeah, man, let's do yeah, I'm ready to I'm ready to I don't know, I'm just feeling all riled up right now. It sucks that it's almost bedtime here, because I'm like, man, I want to get going. Let's stay up all night and do more of this kind of stuff. it. So let's talk about real quick with the, cause one of the things that I loved about, okay, we sent out our first underground newsletter. So, um, if you're listening, just go to Mormons on mushrooms.com and sign up for the newsletter. Um, and you know, can I just pull it up real quick here? Cause you wrote something that I would love to just kind of just talk about to maybe close this out here. And it's the new year, you said, uh, new year, you knew me? Yeah. but at the end you wrote some questions that I kind of like this for. Yeah. I created that like 10 years ago, 12 years ago maybe. I do that every year. Well, I'm going to do this for myself and I want to do it around music. Because when I was so it's like I am dot dot dot. Therefore I will. Blank. I will do this by blank. I will do this because blank. I will do this at blank. I will do this when. So when I say. I am. a bard, a musician, right? Therefore, I will. play my music. Yes. I will do this on a boat, a train, the car, in the rain. I will do this here or there. I'll do this everywhere. No, I'll do this by... playing my music when I'm alone, creating more experiences to play music with other people. I will do this because I love doing nothing more. I will do this at, kind of on Doug's back deck, will do it in my backyard. I'll do it at some concerts that we'll do, some retreats that we'll do. Yeah. And yeah, I would, yeah. dude, thank you, Mike, thank you. Thank you for those links. see my heart beating? That's what that... You just inspired me, man. I know we're talking about how you can't get any external validation. I know I keep talking about that, but you just inspired me. That's what that is. It's like, okay. At my core, I am statements are important, right? But those I am statements have to come with some of the specifics about like, well, why? And how am I gonna do it? And what is that thing that, and how does it, what is the thing that it manifests, how does it manifest itself? Like, dude, I got the chills when you were talking about that. Like every part of it, every part I was looking forward your answer. Every single part, yeah. Well, and it reminds me of something, you know, speaking of Tracy, something she told me recently, and she was one who really encouraged us to put those songs on Spotify. And one of the things she said was like, and she talked about the podcast and she said, look at the ripple effects that have come from you sharing your voice. And she said, and I know that as far as, you know, speaking on podcasts or doing music, you love music even more. And so think of the ripple effects that of you doing your music. And again, here I'm talking about the external thing, but I'm doing that also the internal effects as well. So the ripple effects, the butterfly effect, the change it can have on my life to be in the, to, to start being in the intentionally moving towards creating more of those experiences where I am like, Holy shit, I am full right now. What ripple effect will that have in all areas of my internal life? Not just who I'm affecting, but like, Mike, me, the music, what will it do with the music I share? What will it do with the joy I feel in my life and how then also I won't maybe. need to spend so much money or you know to try to fill holes that they can't fill. Yeah, It's making me think about like. Podcasts, you know, the podcast is such a perfect thing because it really is an exploration of our personalities and our our and our experiences, right? So it's really easy to like come back to like think about episodes of the podcast. Where you and I have just tried so hard to make it something somebody else might like. What questions do we ask? you know, the guests. It makes me think about like the, we were so pumped to have East Forest on and we just, we got nervous and we just started treating it like we were like TRL. Remember that? Where it was like, what are you, are you inspired by and how do you, how do you do things? Like we've done, there are, I can go back and listen to the certain episodes and I can hear that it's just like, bro, there's no joy in this. There's no, we're not doing anything. We're not, we're not being ourselves. We're trying to, we're, We're writing the speech that somebody else wants to hear. You know? God, man. Yeah. Yeah. Good point. something. So. I mean, just to maybe tie it back to Nosferatu for a minute. And this isn't spoiling anything because this is the very beginning of the, so before I got too high, you know, the beginning he, he, he gets sent to, go bring Nosferatu back to like, to, meet this Lord and escort him back to his own country. He's doing that because he wants to get out of debt and provide a life that he thinks his wife wants. But that's not what his wife wants. And she begs him not to go. And meanwhile, she's the one who calls in at the very beginning. This is the very opening scene of the film. She calls in the Dark Lord and makes a covenant to him. And she's the one who brings in Nosferatu to fill the hole that she's feeling because he's out chasing something that's really not bringing him fulfillment, her fulfillment. And so that's when she has to summon the Dark Lord. And so it's like... Whoa, Holy shit. That's where it's like, I really want to see it again because I think there's more of like those types of like symbolic, like soul making stuff I could pull from the film. But man, I was just in my own world. And then I was terrified. I am loving this. Side note, can we appreciate how you said, OK, bringing it back to Nosferatu? All that stuff we just talked about. are a, I don't know, man, you're a master. don't know. That is a. You do that all the time and it's a skill that you have like when you said that I almost shit my pants. I like to like wrap things in a little bow. Have a little full house moment. yeah, was, you know, same. I want to do it too. I just don't have. I'm just giving you a compliment, I guess. When you said that, I was like there. I was like, there ain't no way he's going to actually be able to do this. There's no way that he's going to say bringing this back to nose for Rato and then have some kind of like point to wrap up what we're actually talking about. And sure enough, man, you did. And I'm sitting here going, yeah, you did. When we chase after things we don't want and that... we got it, yeah, suddenly the people that we think that we're doing this for have to like summon the Dark Lord. They have to go to like the extremes to like get us back, right? To get, man, that just, that nailed me, man.