Sinners (#208)

In this live episode, we dive into the hit film Sinners, exploring its themes of soul, art and the commercialization of creativity. Seth joins us midway and things heat up as we dissect the love-and-light vampires, the Dionysian river-dance rituals, and the seductive trap of eternal youth vs. embodied humanity.

Other themes we touch on:

• The tension between spirit and soul in the creative process
• Whether vampires represent capitalism, whitewashing, or the inner critic
• That one unforgettable scene where music collapses time and culture
• Personal stories about letting the vampires in (on stage, in Hollywood, in life)
• Can you make real art in the system—or must you sneak it through?

Warning: Spoilers galore for Sinners. If you haven’t seen it yet, pause, go watch, and then come back and dance with us.

Links:
The Nightingale (YouTube)

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Transcript

0:47

I think that works. I've got the chat up. Hello. Hello there, how are you? Good, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good, I'm a little tired, but I... Well, I went to see the movie last night with a friend and I had a lot of drinks and then got home and I didn't want to be hungover so I played music and got high until I felt like, okay, I can go to bed and not be hungover and that worked, but I was like, I'm tired. You know. So you avoided the hangover but not the exhaustion. Yeah, so I still, didn't get to sleep, you know, but I like just operating in a few hours of sleep here, but. Dude, I'm more clear-headed than I've been in God knows how long, you know? you went through hell and back this week. Well, are you back? Well, I don't know. I guess I'm probably, I got more, I got more testing and other bullshit I got to do tomorrow. Um, I think that I'm probably going to have a minor surgery this week is what I think. Yeah. That's what they're kind of thinking. Yeah. But I feel I, right. I didn't, so I was supposed to leave town for those, for anybody who's listening, I was supposed to leave town and I did not leave town because I've been having some, uh, health issues, I guess. Like dude, the fucking worst health issue maybe ever, like that I've ever experienced, but I've never, I've had a really pretty easy life. Um, but I'm telling you, Mike, when I was, like when I, when I was going through like episodes, like I feel great today, but when I was going through episodes, I, I couldn't escape. was inescapable pain. like, was like, it was like, like, to my wife coming home late at night and I'm naked on the floor of our bedroom writhing around barfing like puking like crazy and couldn't escape it like I couldn't get away from it it couldn't get relief from it so after two days of that uh I went to the uh urgent care and they think I mean they think I my gallbladder probably what it seems like I was reading about that. I guess it doesn't affect much at the end or just to be good. been, if it's been, here's me not knowing anything about medical science, but having read a lot about it, because that's, you know, I tend to get that way. uh Well yeah, if you're gonna get every move you're gonna... if anything, so it's, you know, its whole function is to like inject bile into the stomach to help with the digestive process. But if mine's not been fucking working, that would explain some digestive uh problems that I've had for a while. You know what I mean? So to me, it's like, get that fucker out of there. It's not doing anything. I'm not one these people who's like trying to hold on to all my body parts. You know how there's like people that are like, I really love all my body parts. Don't. Don't- I'm in the Civil War, don't cut my leg off. Well, you're gonna get your fucking leg cut off, I don't care. Dude, that's fucking rough, man. There's nothing worse than being in that nausea puking thing and you've been in it for days. The one thing about puking is usually it's like, you you have a night of it and then you're fine, but... No. Yeah, the bright side is that I look amazing. Don't I? I gotta glow. And I lost like 10 pounds. You should see my abs right now, dude. I look so fucking good. Cause I haven't really eaten anything. of the mission companion I had, was like, I should have taken more pictures of myself when I was a junior in high school. I was like, why is that man? Because I was so buff it was sickening. Okay, buddy. oh Well, you know, I'm a bright side kind of guy. Like it's like, even when, even when Christ was hanging on the cross, you have to admit that bright side is like, dude, he looked good. He looked good up there. Do you know what I mean? Like, like that, like that under, like the, like the tricep, like he looked so good hanging from that cross. getting better looking too as we go along here. I've just seen more more paintings of Jesus. He's he's aging well. he looks better. Dude, there was like that period of time, like those old Catholic Jesus pictures where he's just kind of like skinny and gaunt. You know what I mean? And it's like, not my God. That's not my Jesus. You're just like, what are the Catholics doing? Like, what are they trying to do with their Jesus? Gross. Like, why is he such a, why is he such a fucking skinny little waif? Like, why isn't he a more, you know, robust Jesus? Well, I've noticed that don't think Mormons try to make the best looking Jesus as far as they're like paintings of Jesus. eh the main one, like the Dill Parson one, looks like a movie star, right? That dude has not spent any time in the desert. The sun has not seen that guy's face. Where I remember like the Jehovah's Witness pamphlets, they try to make him look like historically accurate at least. Like he looks, I remember like getting those pamphlets when I was a missionary and being like, that's not my Jesus. He doesn't have short curly black hair. That's not, that can't be your Jesus. Oh, that's funny. So how I'm trying to get into the Message everyone. Well, there's anybody even here. Is it just you and me? Hello. Watch this. I'm going to say hello. says there's three people in the audience. well that's all right with these lives. You know what I mean? I would like for there's Seth. I would like for there to be three and then Christie and Tony. There we go. Seth, Christie and Tony. Is that okay, y'all, if we just said that and read it out loud? Do want us to like cut it? Yeah. can tell us if you want to. Well, did say, so you went, you went and saw uh Sinners last night, right? I and I saw it again this morning because I had to. Because, you know, I did that thing again last night where I took an edible for to see it. And I didn't even remember that. You pulled the old Nosferatu, did you? Yeah, I did. oh And I didn't even remember. so, by the way, we're from here on out, we're spoiling the movie centers. So. yeah, that's probably something we should admit, is that this is spoiler starting now, right? Yeah, we have to have spoilers, we can't chat about it. um But, so, I didn't even remember at the end that he... How did I miss this? That he stayed behind to mow down all of the clan when they showed up to the... um I didn't remember that part? Hold on, hold on a second Mike, this is very important to me. Did you stay for the fucking post credit scene? Oh, okay, all right. Well, if you didn't remember that he like mowed down the clan, like I thought maybe you just like checked out. I remember the post credit scene. It was one of my favorite scenes. and. But I, so that's why I feel like, you know, it's just like, I, I take an edible, I thought it was gonna be fine with just one of them, but then I took one and you know, I'm experiencing the movie on a whole different plane of reality. Um, yeah. Hold on, you texted me midway through. going into it, so okay, before I read the text that you sent me, I was unaware. somehow I had avoided all of the marketing for this movie. Like I had no idea of its existence until uh like opening weekend, my wife was like, everybody's talking about this movie, we gotta go see it. And so we went and I had, so I've been kind of doing some, my own like research like. Evidently in the marketing, kind of hinted that there was like a supernatural sort of deal, right? hinted, yeah, but... I saw the trailer a couple times before other things, but... It hinted at it, but yeah. for some reason I missed it. So I went into this and really not even, God, that's, I didn't even know what it was about. I didn't even know who was in it. The movie Sinners, a lot of people are talking about, let's go see it. And I was like, okay, let's go see it. So even as the movie is going on, like during the first part of it, I'm just like, classic period piece about racism in America. uh It's obviously during a time where we're dealing with we're dealing with prohibition. We're dealing it's like during the Great Depression Like the World War two hasn't started yet the Klan, know They'd start like the dude what they when they're when they're like negotiating the beginning the guys like there's no Klan around like I'm sitting there like I got this thing figured out. Of course. There's Klan dinner name means I'm like, I'm like, this is gonna be another just another American classic about like about just sort of like history repeats itself and we got a somehow find a way to defeat, you know, racism in America. But then uh when that dude showed up to the door, like when the dude showed up to the doorway smoking like he was like on fire, I turned to my wife. I was like, is this a fucking vampire? I said it loud enough for like some people around me to hear a little. know, sometimes I should. But I was like, is this a fucking vampire movie? And she's like, you know, like she gives me one of those. But. in at that point when he was just on fire. uh they start talking about vampires in the opening credits where they're like, yeah, every culture's got these fucking like spirits and ghosts and vampires. I was like, this just must be a rich introduction to like cultural histories. I don't know. Like, I wasn't like, I wasn't expecting vampires. shit, did I disconnect? Yeah, okay. You're back now. You should have included it at the very beginning. mean when they were What did I miss? All I heard was, uh, I should have clued in. I said I should include in the opening credits where they talk about different cultures having vampires and ghosts and goblins. And I was like, I'm not paying attention to that. This is just cultural stuff. I'm like, yay. Yeah, every culture has their own like gods and devils and myths and shit. So for me, I didn't even pay attention to that part. I was just like, yeah, it's gonna be a movie about like the melting pot that is America, yay. And then when that dude was smoking, I was like. shit, this is gonna be more than just like me cheering when he gets the clan. Cause you know, you're going into that, you're like, it's gonna be pretty heavy and there's gonna be some really hard to watch moments of racism. But in the end, I fucking know this movie is gonna end with them getting the clan. And I guess it did end that way, but also it ended way weirder than I expected it to end. man, when I sat in all of sudden, those opening, the opening thing was talking about this, the, the, uh, musicians that would open the realms and whatever. was like, Whoa, you were right. Was this movie written for us at that moment where I was like, I think, I think Ryan Coogler made this film just for me and you. So I was happy about that. So you go, did Rand Cougar write a film just for you and me? So I'm thinking that you're out. You got out of the movie, here it is, it's time to talk about it. So I'm like, fucking amen, dude. uh Did you love it? And you're like, awfully kind of the gentleman. And I'm like, yeah, okay, I think Mike might be a little high. That tipped me off when you said, awfully kind of the gentleman. So then. flagged Ellie's sensors that you have on your chat, GBT. Yeah, I would have picked up on it pretty quick. So then you say to me, uh I'm only halfway. I'll text after So not very long after that 20 minutes later you text me I let the vampires in I'm just like Mike is not even Mike is going deep into this movie I know that this is gonna touch every like every box. It's gonna tick every single box on the mic Checklist of what makes an amazing incredible fucking movie yeah, no, think it's been, I mean, one of my favorites that I've seen in recent memory or ever. Like if I checked all my boxes, I mean, from the beginning with that to just the way they built it all up with the music. and the, I mean, where do we even start with this? There's so many different ways to talk about it, either symbolically or archetypally or. we just talk about it, oh shit, you got symbolic and archetypal. I'd say we start symbolic. Just maybe, what are your takeaways from it? Well, you could look at it from like a, you know, the racism perspective. You can also look at it from the art making in Seoul, right? And that's what I was really getting, you know, the, maybe it's because I've been watching the studio as well on Apple plus or whatever, um, where it's, I guess I'm watching a lot lately where it's like this thing about art versus like commercial commercialization of art and, know, uh, the, the soul that you're trying to tap into in making art, but then the vampires you attract along the way. Like the, you know what mean? I was just film that. Yeah, big time. mean, you know, for me, it's so funny you're saying that, because like for me, who watched, you know, the first whatever portion of it, thinking it was a movie about racism. I mean, obviously it's still about race. Obviously there's still like a real racial element to it, but it's much more than that to me. It's almost like the way that they end, let's see, creativity and soul combining. combating systems of oppression. See, that's okay, perfect, Seth. So to me, the racism was thrown in as like, well, yeah, there's gonna be this as another layer to this type of thing. But sincerely, what you, Mike, are talking about, what Seth is in the chat talking about is the taking of culture and the creativity that comes with that and... and mostly the way to profit off of it. Do you know what I mean? So there's a big thing about, I know the vampires, gotta invite them in and all that kind of stuff, but the money aspect and the we want your money, we can build, or we want your music, we can build on this. It was a lot more than just the racial thing for me, because it was about stealing and profiting, like monetizing, like the monetization of everything. Everything is monetized. Do you know I mean? Like they're fucking doing the river dance like this uh By the way a bunch of a bunch of vampires doing a doing a fire lit river dance is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life a second greatest thing I've ever seen in my life second only to that scene where the dudes playing the guitar and it's like mixing all of the music from every culture and Future and past and present. It's like what this is the great. What is the fuck is going on here? Yeah is so, you know, whether or not this ends up being one of my favorite films of all time, that scene I think might be my favorite scene in any movie I've ever seen. Like those moments, it just tapped me into those moments when like you're playing music and you feel like you can see your future self past. Like it feels like you're just bridging all of the realms. And when that guy pulled out that electric guitar and then it's zooming into the crowd and you have some people in the crowd from like different cultures and different uh like timelines even and people are doing modern dance with ancient dance it just and then like the the cabin sort of uh burns down uh not like metaphorically or whatever and so then they're just standing there just like dancing in this it just was primal and timeless and and but one of the things was interesting with the art piece uh So it was her going out to get money from the white people that ended up inviting them in. So it's also that tension with the creativity of like, look, without the money, without the funding, without the studios, we've talked about movie and TV shows, uh without um Disney and Paramount and Apple, this art doesn't get made. But what price do you pay by getting, know, when making a deal with the devil in that case? Well, it's so funny to hear you say that, then, listen, I've been obsessed with this movie Sinners. so looking at all the reading, all of the reviews, reading about uh the director's deal that he made and how it's getting a lot of speculation and scrutinization in Hollywood. It's like, you're talking very much about this of like, he made sure to bake into his his deal about this movie. Like it's like fucking layered, man. Like I sound like such a dork right now, but like he built in their inability to completely steal it from him and profit off of it. mean, there's, know, studios still making a shitload of money on this thing. It's just one over $200 million. But he gets a big piece of that on the back end, which I just think is beautiful. Yeah, go ahead, Mike. too. Well, one of the things that Seth points out here, which I love Seth says and creativity coming through cultural connections, heritage and indigenous traditions. Also the love and light fucking vampires are too damn funny. Feels like they created a literal shadow collective to represent the actual shadow collective Mike is talking about. And isn't it, I found that interesting when they were talking about it's we're all one, we're all, know, so it is like, um, I think there's just a lot you can pull from this. And Seth, by the way, if you want to hop on and join us, you're welcome to. Just let us know. We've never done that I know there's a way. So speaking of that, speaking of that comment or that question, what decision are you making? Are you joining the vampires? You know, the dude at the end, like Buddy Guy, I don't know who, I can't remember the guy's name, but the dude that's like at the end and he's the old man that's been playing sweet music for 60 years or whatever it is. I mean, the vampires still win, right? I mean, I guess I'm confused. Like, what's the, what is the moral of the story? Like, the vampires win, right? Well, I think you can sit in a little bit of they do, but then he also, I mean, he, well, he goes on and, and, and lives right. And, sings, he doesn't give up the guitar at the end. He keeps it and you know, it flashes forward 60 years later and he's still playing. He's still singing. Um, you know, what I was kind of getting at the end is this thing about like, A lot of it came down to that Spider-Man thing for us, man. That first mushroom journey. So the first mushroom journey, Doug and I were, you we've talked about, we've probably talked about this moment, it bears repeating here. Uh, we're in the journey. We're sitting around listening to Mountain Tribe play music all night. And it's just beautiful. Meanwhile, this, uh this guy dressed in a Spider-Man outfit. Cool guy. Love it. Good energy comes in and. been one of the professional acts playing at the reggae fest. He was a bonafide, true musician, right? True musician, go ahead. And so yeah, so he comes in, you know, I'm in one of the acts. So he's expecting to kind of walk into the song circle and be like, Oh, I'm going to wow everyone and show everyone that I'm the shit. And it came across so, I mean, in an adorable way, but just like that thing of trying to carry more how you're perceived than just channeling music and art. Well, and was, yeah, I mean, it was, it sticks in our mind, cause it was like almost, it was almost like scripted, right? Dude's wearing a full blown Spider-Man outfit, right? Amazing, amazing, amazing musician, because he's wearing a Spider-Man outfit. You and I are sitting there on the ground. I don't know, were you on the ground? I was at the ground at the time. I know I had a chair most of the night. felt bad for you. You were like in lotus position the whole night. You stayed there from like 1 a.m. to 6 a.m. yeah, couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't not, you know? But anyway, so the dude sits down and it's not like, so like, know, Eric, you all know that I think that Mountain Tribe, Eric's music is like my favorite music. Like he's just such a gasone hair. And I'm like doing mushrooms for the first time ever. And I'm a little bit drunk still. Do know what I mean? Like I'm still kind of shit faced. And so this guy sits down. in the middle of, doesn't know what he just sat into, but people are like in like multiple levels of like altered consciousness through music, through the being up late, through booze, through the mushrooms. I think we had some MDMA that night, I don't know. And so it's like, yeah. So there's people, mean, people are sitting there and swaying and everybody kind of knows the songs a little bit. You and I don't know the songs. We're like, what the hell is going on? But we're just like into it. Dude sits down and he's like, Do you guys want to hear hallelujah? Like that's like the thing. Like there's something very important to me that that's the song that he wanted to play was hallelujah. Cause it's like, there's infinity versions of that song. Such a beautiful song that like everybody, it's like exactly what we're fucking talking about. It's like everybody knows that song hallelujah. I heard there was a secret code, you know that song. And so he plays that one. And one of the people singing was like, you you ready to truly go there bud? And so like, Then we just sit in here the most beautiful rendition of hallelujah that's ever been Auto harmonizing people singing along it was amazing. But the dude that was in the spider-man outfit talented as he was shrunk into the night because he was like, wow, I brought stage energy to something that's like uh connectivity Like creativity like being here for each other type of energy. Is that a fair way to say it? I also it is. And um it reminded me like when the vampires initially at the door played their little song and it's like, and it's good, it's catchy. But it's missing that like soul at the beginning, know, that uh especially that first one they sing. It's like, it's, well, it's interesting. I feel like their songs get more soulful the more. get better. Their songs get better the more vampires they make because they're like now mixing and matching and bringing some of that like different cultural music into their fucking songs to the point. Yeah. it's where they're singing that like river dancing at the end and everyone's like, everyone's dancing and the that's holy shit. That scene with the vampires dancing with it is so fucking good. But so I think you can look at it in this blending of like soul and spirit and how, you know, just like internally, we can look at it externally, but internally we often try to mine the unconscious for like our egoic gains, right? So we can be like the soul and we're also the vampire within our own way. And especially like in Western culture where we exploit nature, we mind nature for, we vampire off of nature. We're not in this reciprocal relationship. But yet there needs to be a blending of soul and spirit. You you need both of them and soul being, am I making sense with that or? Yeah, keep going. you talking about? I just, I've lost my train of thought. Yeah. ask you this question, because then I think we need to address, I think we probably need to talk to Seth, because I'm interested in what he... I look at you do that. That's kind of cool. Oh, but I guess we're not. What the f- why is this showing up on the screen? don't know, we're trying to figure out how work this. Okay, so here's what I want to ask you Mike because because okay Olivia Rodrigo Nosferatu Sinners and a thing that you frequently ask me Is are you ask if you're a vampire? What that like dude vampires are like a big part of your year I guess they are, huh? I didn't really think about it until now. Mike, you ask me if you're a vampire. Hahaha When we're tripping, you're like, do you think I'm a vampire? I've had those moments, if I get, you know. what makes you think like when that when that comes up for you? What are you thinking about? Energy like what are you thinking about? I feel like sometimes I can suck people's energy in a good way. In a good way, but you know. okay, yeah, because there's like energy vampires, know, or thing and you're not one of those. Yeah, that's why I was curious. but I guess the point I'm trying to make, and this is a tension I sit in, uh, a bit, you know, and especially now with us starting to like record our music. Um, how do you record, how do you do it in a way that, example, like I'm really liking the show, the studio. Cause it shows that tension within Hollywood about like, look, we want to, we, we, we say we're champions of art. We want to. bring on talented filmmakers and respect their vision. But also we just bought the rights to the Kool-Aid franchise. And so we need to make a Kool-Aid movie. And look, I know you're gonna write um a heart-wrenching movie about your transgender dad, but like, are people gonna watch it? I'd go watch that movie, I like watching that movie, but unless it has a superhero, you're not like, you know, so that tension of making art that matters. versus making art that's going to be seen. And sometimes, like in this case, you get one that it blends both perfectly. This movie is going to be seen and it is being seen. And it is, I think, a brilliant piece of art. you know, there's a tension with that. Yeah, and it's funny because like, gosh, using the studio to bridge it is such a good one because like, you're right, I took my son to see Thunderbolts today, like the new literal superhero movie. It was great, it was fucking fantastic. It's like, like, okay. You know how they say on the poster or on the commercials, the best Marvel thing since Endgame? Yeah, uh-huh. It is. Yeah, it's great. It's amazing. It restored my faith in superhero movies, to be honest with you. Like, I really loved it. And it's the exact, well, I mean, they throw little bit of like the mental, you know, kind of game in there, but like, it's just every superhero movie. Peppered with heart and action and a little bit of good times and comedy and humor, you know? But I want to get back to this comment that Seth is making. Can we? say I'm actually wondering if we can just bring Seth on. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. I do too, because. to just go up his ass. I'm about to take him down with this comment. I've wanted you to you go up Seth's ass for a long time. I'm trying to figure out how to do it though. It said you could do it. oh Well, maybe we might be able to... So let me just read it, Seth, if that's okay. And then maybe you can... send him a link to how we can do it too. Okay, well see I want him listening to what I'm gonna ask him while he's not like, do think he can be doing double duty? Because I can't do double duty. He knows. Okay, so here's what he, I'll read what he said. Love the light and also the love and light fucking vampires are too damn funny. Feels like they created a literal shadow collective to represent the actual shadow collective that Mike is talking about. And then he says, the collective changed when the one guy controlling it dies. Question mark? I'm not sure. that a question? It seems like the vampires are different somehow. So I guess Seth's probably got totally, like the collective change, like he's probably like, he's like saying this with like some sense of audacity. Like the collective change when the one guy controlling it dies seems like the vampires are different somehow. I don't think the vampires are different, are they? Other than their outfits. they seem maybe, but like the after credits scene? Yeah, were they different? I mean they were nice. They didn't go and eat him. Right, but wasn't that because of like the big, it was a plot device. It was like part of the whole like, it was part of the whole, there he is. Look at that, look at that beautiful man. Hi Seth, can you hear us? All right. Can you hear me all right? I don't have any audio, anything set up. Great. So... Oh, your levels look pretty good there Seth. Hey, hey, hey, levels! So Seth, sounds like you and Mike are on the same page and what I thought was going to be us going on the attack, it seems like the two of you are going to attack me here. So I'm ready to defend myself, So yeah, the two of you are going on my ass instead of the other way around. I was gonna have to split my dick in two and go both your asses right now. Well, I guess I'm going to have to do that right now. Let's go. Bring it on, boys. So I'm curious, do you think the vampires changed? I think the whole point of the story is that nothing fucking changes. It's the same thing that's still going on. I don't know, because this is a pretty fresh thought for me, just while you two were talking, right? But when those two roll into the end of the movie, there's... my god. So good. Yeah, I need more knitwear, you know, like that. Yeah, there's just a different sense to them, right? They feel more like their characters. um And they are, like they have kind of like, they're almost making a peace with this guy, right? Like there's almost like an understanding between them that there certainly was not earlier on. um You know, I mean, even the vampires, like the idea of them keeping a promise they made, you know, that feels very different from what happens earlier on in the movie, right? that feels anti-vampirical which is a word I just made up which I think we should start using by the way anti-vampirical is such a good word But I mean, it's just like that is, you know, if this is like a we're looking at this as like a shadow collective, right? This idea that there's something in the collective, there's collective shadow and that these guys are a representative of that. That that can change, right? It does change over time. You know, I'm sure they're doing new, different, horrendous vampire shit, very vampirical shit, you know, but also like there's an evolution, it seems like. I don't know. It feels hopeful in a way that like, maybe the collective can, there can be change in the collective. Maybe, you know, we make enough art and we do enough creative acts and it can have a shift in, you know, the systems of oppression and power and the collective that is driving those, you know. Even with the point we were making about the love and light aspect of the vampires, which was really interesting to me because you can see how in the shadow, you know, we use love and light so much to bypass the experience of soul and soul being like a perspective of life of deepening, deepening into, you know, the the tragedies and pains and ecstasies of life. How much we use that and how much we actually sometimes kill art that way by like making art all love and light. and this is all love and it's like wait but it's also heart-wrenching and it's also angry and I did a class once with somebody who y'all have met. They were on the show once. I won't say who, but they were kind of like uh saying, don't watch the Matrix because it's like it's too dark. I was like, it's just shadow work. It's art. It's shadow work. Like we got to do that as a collective, you know, it gives us an opportunity to like process some real shit, you know, we got to face the darkness too, you know. Anyway. Yeah, dude, that's a thing that we all face a little bit, right? trying to heal from toxic religious shame. We get into the love and light because, but I think that's just getting into the same. I thought they, see for me, they did a really good job of representing it. I'm hearing you two come away with like, there's this like hope that there's a change to this, to this shadow, to this, to this shadow collective. But I don't think there was like the one, the one thing is predicated on like some. movie magic thing is a promise made to a brother. It's like we're twins and we share everything and we're in love and we're gonna and just you can keep being a vampire and scamper off into the night with your girlfriend uh even though the main Irish guy's gonna die here pretty soon. Like you can go do your thing but in this story where the vampires are representing love and light they are still vampires misrepresenting the concept of love and light. Yeah. in this story, the existence of these vampires also alludes to the existence of the, like, the antithetical vamp, like God, like his dad, like the movie starts with his dad preaching and the movie ends with his dad preaching. He's saying, lay that down. Didn't you learn your lesson? Lay down that music. And the dude doesn't lay down the music. He keeps inviting the devil in. He continues for 60 years until he's this old man and I guess he owns the club because he's just like hanging out in it afterwards, letting people in and out. He's the one that's like, you know, invite people in. He seems like super famous. Yeah, his name's on the wall. He seems super famous. It's Buddy Guy, one of the greatest guitar players of all time. So it's like, it's like they come in and they're like, look, we're still alive and we're still the same age as we were in 1932 when you thought you had killed us all off. but we look even better today than we did then because we're in like hip late eighties, nineties clothes, dude. Look how sweet we look. And Michael B. Jordan's character looks like the fly-ass motherfucker in town and Haley Steinfeld's character looks hot as shit. And they're like, Hey, are you ready? Like we're, still want your music, dude. We still want to take this whole concept of taking your music. And he's like, no, I'm not ready yet. I want to keep playing for people cause I really like it. And I've built this whole life around it and I'm rich now and I own a club and look at me. And they're like, okay. Well I made that. Okay, we'll keep honoring our promise that I made to my twin brother over 60 years ago, but we're still gonna keep doing vampire shit. And we're still gonna keep growing and expanding and we still can't go around in the daytime. We still have to be invited in. And it's still like this whole concept of we want your money and we're going to take it when you die. Like we want that guitar. Yeah, we want your music. I said money, I music. Yeah, we want your music. Cause they got the money. They got the gold. You know, those vampires, they got nothing but walking around money with that gold they keep flicking at everybody. They got plenty of it. They might be plucking it out of the sky like the old fucking. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and even like Michael B Jordan's character or one of them, they're not immune to that because like when he's, uh, uh, I forget his name, but the guy who, uh, the young kid who is playing the blues, do you remember his name? Yeah. Preacher boy, yeah. I don't know what character's name from that. Smoke stack. I know smoke and stack. Yeah. When he started to play and to sing, Michael B. got so excited and he said, we're going to be making a lot of money tonight. So even he was like, we're going to be making money off of your soul. They're the ones who like open it up to all of it, right? They're the ones who like, uh that's kind of the letting the vampires in, right? That's a little bit in them. That's the whole thing with like them going and like stealing the money and being part of organized crime and everything. Like they got that in them too. Right. Well, and they allude to it. And there's also something we haven't really talked about like symbolism. Like they make that point of it's Irish beer, it's Italian wine. Now keep in mind the Irish and the Italians in this country were scorned and reviled before we started because we had to have, you know, we had to have the slaves on a subhuman sort of like level, right? And so we had to have this scorn and second class citizenship for the Irish and the Italians. So it makes a lot of sense. They kind of mention Al Capone because it's about the right time type of thing. it's dubious where they got all this money. They infer that they stole the money, that there's going to be Irish and Italian mobsters after them. And they're talking about how the only way that the Irish and the Italians legitimize themselves was through organized fucking crime. Do you know what I mean? And it's like, but when Yeah. fucking way. And so it's like, for me, it becomes this really super, like I'm too stupid to put it into words and I'm probably getting it wrong, but inevitable is what it, like for me, it's like, Yeah. about like pre Christianity, he's talking about, you know, Rome. And so it's like this. I'm sorry that I'm going on such a fucking rant right now guys. I want this to be more of a discussion but to me it's just about the power structures that want to squeeze every last drip of Profit and value out of art because they recognize it for being something that makes them feel but they also Honor and respect that god of money most and so they go and they take it. Yeah it takes creativity to create wealth and power Right, but they just have to steal it. They have to take somebody else's creativity because they don't have any left, right? right, because there is no culture. I mean, this is a thing that we've talked about on here before, and Mike, you and I have talked about extensively, which is about there's a lot of people that do genealogy work, both inside and outside of the Mormon church. The world is fascinated with genealogy work, but there's a lot of people that do genealogy work. There's this big gap. They think that their people just came over on the Santa Pinta or the What are the fucking pilgrim? The Nina Pinton the Santa Maria? Is that right? Or they came over on the Mayflower or something like that? Like they feel like they came over from England. Where they just were hanging out in England and like, yeah, we were just looking for more Christianity please and we think it's across the ocean? Like that's not what happened. Anyway, sorry, yeah. Oh, well, a couple of things I want to bring up because at the end, I thought it was really interesting how Michael Jordan's character was talking about how they love his music, but not the new stuff. They wanted to get to the real stuff. You it's like, you want to feed off the real. Then also, I think that was coming up for me. Yeah. feed off the real, the most real, which is the imaginal. It's all coming from the imaginal, right? Like, it's the most real thing we have is like what all that creativity channels out of. Anyway. Which I think is why that one scene that we're talking about, it was so cool. Cause when he taps into the imaginal, like he, through his music, through his blues that he's playing, he opens the portal to imagination. And it's like a very Dionysian kind of orgy of, I mean, people aren't fucking right there, but like there it's origin. Yeah. know what I mean? Yeah. mean, this, movie has by my count, three or four, this has three or four men who are proudly eating pussy. That's like, we're talking about like, now we're, now we're getting somewhere. Sorry. Mike, you got a whole thing going. Sorry. getting like some light choking. mean, there's some there's some men who are secure in this movie. There's good sex. Yeah. The other point I thought was really interesting as I watching it yesterday, I was thinking of, if we really are like eternal beings having a human experience, if we are, we're not, but let's just say we are, then there is a part of us that exists and is eternal, like the vampires. But then also a part of us that really wants to is here experiencing this life and how we can take, because like, I mean, we talked about the end, how cool they fucking look and how cool it be to kind of stay forever young. But then they never get to see a sunrise. You know, I love that line at the end. He's like, yeah, that was the last day I saw my brother alive. And it was the last time I saw a sunrise. You're not really experiencing being a human. You can see the sunrise, you're just gonna get raptured when you do it. Yeah. Well plus, I mean there is the thing, there is something to be said. See there's mixed and conflicting and I like mixed and conflicting messages but I'm just, sometimes I feel stupid. you know, the main guy says there at the end, he's like, before the sun went down this was my best day of my life. So that's when he's like going around, know, glad handing with his cousins and recruiting the squad and getting to know everybody and. you know, slapping ass and all that. Yeah. Well, the greatest day of his life, and that's before he sang the song that brought the past, present, and future and multiple cultures to life and together. So there's something, I don't know, I'm just not deep enough to figure out what that is, but I feel like the director, Ryan Coogler, is that his name? Like the director, he's awesome, like good shit. Like I think he's like doing a lot of like, personal reflection and he's like very creative like this this movie fucked with me is what I'm trying to say because I I think I have multiple Interpretations of the same shit is what I'm trying to say that's what's beautiful about it. That's what, you know, I've thinking in the last week about what you guys were talking earlier, talking about earlier of like, can art even come out of the system, right? You know, and as somebody who spends a lot of my time thinking about art and trying to make art and, you know, have creative practices, it's like, you make art and then you sneak it out there for other people. every once in a while. Sometimes you get an opportunity to sneak it out there, right? I feel like that's what this was for him. Like he had like these, you know, big hits that he had that, you know, there was soul to him. Like he's got something to say, right? But still there are these big studio, like behemoths, you know, and then this thing. you know, he just snuck something out there. like sometimes, sometimes you can sneak something through that system. Sometimes you get an opportunity to just like make a little bit of art, right? And the best art, it's not, it's not like, hey, it's not like holding up a sign. Like, hey, read this a sign. It's not like a fucking billboard, right? It's a conversation. And this movie starts a real conversation. There's, there's not, it's not. At no point is he saying this is the way it is. It's like, hey, there's some stuff we need to talk about and it's complex. That's what I like about it, because it's not simple. I think that shows that he's tapping into something archetypal there. Because you could usually just say, OK, well, the vampires are like are soulless and are feeding off of the soul and the thing. you see their music. I fucking love Irish music. And as far as like. It's got soul in it, you know, there's a soul, there's a white soul in that Irish music that's so good. And. I'm thinking of the book, I have it right here, The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. And in that book, he talks about how intention is key in the art making process. And so it's really hard, think, in like, you were talking about like in like a studio environment to make good art, because it's like the studio, their incentive is, it's hard to decouple that, the incentive to make a profit. And you see it for a while, a studio, you know, such as Marvel, Pixar had it going for a while. where you're just like, you've created a creative like ecosystem that's thriving and you're able to cultivate that. But then usually what happens is then you have those successes and because we live in corporate America and especially if you're a public company, your only metric that you're graded on is growth. And so if you grow 200 % one year, no one cares now is how much you're growing off of that. And so it's not your... It doesn't allow for the cycles and I think you need the cycles for creativity. And by the way, Mike, there's a flaw to that. Like the big flaw to that is perfect. You just use a perfect example. If you grow 200 % one year and then you grow 100 % the year following that, the question is not, wow, you grew 300 % in two years. The question is, why did growth slow by half in year two? Do you know what I'm saying? Like percentages, like I mean, most people who know business know that that's a bullshit thing, but. but it exists at a deeper level of what capitalism produces, which is grow or die. Like that's a real thing. A company has to get bigger or it dies, right? Yeah. No, does. But I think that's a part, it's because if it doesn't, if it doesn't, it's either going to die or it's going to, it's going to get vultured. It's going to die because it's going to get swallowed up. It's going to get, it has to keep growing. Well, that's yeah. So that's my point is that that's a flawed, even though that exists deep within our psyche, it's not real. It's not reflective of how uh monetary cycles go, how uh boom and bust cycles go. uh Obviously, uh innovation and technology comes in waves. can't invent the fucking iPhone or invent the internet every single year. Do you know what I mean? but with these advances in technology comes big economic boom and the growth required to backfill that. Do you know what I'm saying? I don't know why we're even talking about that. What the hell are we talking, how did we get into this? What am I even? this is the important part about all this, right? Like going back to Rick Rubin, uh he talks about the intention, Mike, that you're talking about. And he says, if you intend to sell a record, you're making a product, you're not making art. It instantly stops being art. When you have like a board and you have investors and the sole motive is profit margin, You're not making art anymore. Like it just can't happen. You have to go and you have to steal somebody else's creativity in order to create your money. It is vampiric, right? Yeah, that's where you guys were leading me to and I just, I lost my train of thought, but it becomes that thing that the false expectation therefore creates the raping and pillaging of art, right? Just made me think of that Hodorowski quote. The bride. Don't do it. Never mind. I'm sorry. I don't know. I mean, I... no. When he talks about you, I just, never mind. We're good. Okay. I won't hear it. you got to track that down. What's the, what's the quote from the bride? Yeah. When he talks about taking the bride, you do you rape the bride? You're just talking about raping and pillaging and he's fucking yeah that's I mean, symbolically, that's what he's trying to figure out. That's what he's doing in that. And so it's like and so it's like the whole point of this is what that Ryan Coogler has found a way to to to pillage him back a little bit. Is that like we're three white guys, we're three middle class white guys talking about like our role in race, race function in America. We do have a role though. We got to accept that we have a role, right? And the thing you brought up earlier about what he's done in the studio system of like how he's, he's kind of figured out how to make more money out of this and how to like have more control himself over it. Like he is kind of like really pulling a fast one on these guys and he's creating something rather than just giving away his creative energy for somebody else. Yeah, it really is good. mean, this is a dude who made fucking Black Panther. You know what mean? This is the dude who made Creed. By the way, what an ace in the hole to have Michael B. Jordan, dude, like, carry his films, right? Anyway. Sorry, Mike, it seems like you were about to say something. didn't mean it. fucking amazing. There's a point I was kind of, so, because I want to talk about this aspect of like the studio environment that I think is sometimes beneficial. Where, because when we have our personal story, when we're making art from our personal story, like we feel like we're the first person who's ever experienced heartbreak ever, you know? And so then we're like, okay, well now we're ready to like, I want to take my art to the bigger stage and like seeing about heartbreak or seeing whatever. And there's something embedded in the studio system, which could be a positive thing, but it's kind of like, all right. What is it about your story that is going to appeal to the collective? We've all had a broken heart. How are you doing it? That's going to actually like open people up. How are you going to, you know, there's like a. There's almost like a, it's feeling I get sometimes when I'm in like mushroom journeys and like the feeling of like, yeah, so what? Like. uh a feeling of like if the earth is full of stories like there is an aspect of nature that's like all right show me something better you know we're done we've seen that we've seen this before kind of do you know here. I would love for you to say more about that. You guys not relating? No, that's not the case. That's not what's happening, Mike. There is a definite thing going on here. I think that you should keep going down that, like pulling on that thread a little bit. feels like sometimes in this, sometimes happens in like mushroom journeys where there's an element of nature that feels almost like carnival-like in like a, you know, when we're so attached to our story, it can feel so real to us. And I think, I think part of what the medicine is doing is helping you detach from your own story and see it from an outside perspective. And even Zoom out and see your story from a galactic perspective and you're like, you're just like a little ant on this planet having it, you know, who who fucking cares. But then you're like, wait, who fucking cares? That's me. That's my life. That's my heartbreak. That's my struggle. You know, that's my thing. And, and, know, sometimes I get this very carnival energy of like, yeah, man, but like, we got a better act than you kind of deal. Mm-hmm And I feel that sometimes. there's an element though, in this ecosystem where people's jobs are to try to find that talent, to find the quote unquote real that they're looking for at the end. uh to sort out, who's creating art from a real place and who's a pretender? And they're not always good at it, but... That's kind of their, that's their role in the industry. That's like their job, you know? Wow, yeah. I am really thinking about that, Mike, because like, that's a, there's a pretty interesting concept there that I don't know that that is nature saying we've seen it all before, show us something better. I don't, I So here's, here's, here's maybe what it's saying is like, look, you're still not tapped into your source yet, because I, if we really are unique expressions of nature and there's something about me having the Mike experience and Seth having that Seth experience and you having your experience like that only can come through in this form, right? And if I am trying to pretend to be someone else, like there's something like I haven't tapped into my unique artistic expression enough, and maybe there's something that's trying to get me to deepen into that more. I mean, my first thing, the thing that I originally went and saw a guide for is that I had created a blog. Like that was, and it was driving like my depression and my anxiety. Like it was causing me real suffering. And over the course of like that first year, maybe two years, it was like giving up every reason I had for making art. other than just making art. Like letting go of like, maybe I can do this for a living. Maybe I can provide for my family. Maybe I can like have some influence or I can, you know, get people to like, you know, look at things differently. let go of every reason that I had, even good ones, for why I was trying to like be creative and just get all of it out of the way so I could be creative. And then it became an exploration, right? And I think I've talked to both of you about art as an exploration. It's how we, it's like this conversation now, it's how we chew on really tough ideas and feelings. It's how we process all this and turn it into something, right? And create meaning out of it. But yeah, it's like getting all of that out of the way. Mike, that's what I hear you talking about is like, it's not your true expression if you're doing it like somebody else does it, right? And so maybe what I'm getting in those mushroom journeys is a part of me that's like, no, you're still full of it. Like, deepen in. You're dressing in a Spider-Man costume right now and trying to do, you know, like, you're not being real enough, maybe. Okay, go. I want to hear. I've, I've been around, I've been with you during this exact conversation. I've been with you when you've been in an altered state of consciousness where there's this thing of like the carnival feminine, icky gooey. In fact, both of us have been with you, Mike, in this type of a setting and this, this thing where the universe or nature or some entity, some third, some other than Mike. I guess that would be a second. I guess there's just one Mike, you know? I don't know why I said third. But this thing, Mike, that you're feeling, I think is part of shadow. I think that you're dealing with some shadow work when that comes up, because I do not think. that the message from the universe is that you're just not quite good enough because I think that that message is a bottomless well. I think that the amount of depression and lack of fulfillment and the chasing of drugs that take you out of it, drugs and alcohol that take you out of it, I think that that happens. at the most successful levels. And the reason I think that happens is because it happens. Michael Jackson died because he's a drug addict. Michael Jackson, if we're going about who's good and who's bad, if we're setting up this sort of like arbitrary false uh ranking system about there's definitive good and there's definitive bad, Michael Jackson's pretty high up on that list because he's same thing. Prince's same thing. Well, but Michael Jackson is even more ubiquitous. Michael Jackson covers every fucking genre. there's not, it's hard to find someone who can't name a couple of Michael Jackson tracks, right? Michael Jackson died in a state of not being able to accept the world around him. He had everything. Now if you go someone like me who, who I like, you know, things that are a little bit different than that. I'm a Led Zeppelin kind of guy, a Bob Dylan kind of guy. There's a lot of people that consider Bob Dylan the best, but Bob Dylan has struggled with self-confidence issues and drug abuse and relationship and marital issues. uh If you look at Janis Joplin, who was like, you know, in a time where rock and roll was heavily dominated by men. And when I say that, I mean all the time. Other than maybe right now, think rock and roll is actually dominated by women. But uh Janis Joplin was a rising star. Couldn't deal with it because that thing of like, the universe is telling me that there's something deeper that I haven't quite mined, that I've got a mystery secret that I'm keeping from myself. That's why I say opposite, Mike. That's why I say opposite. And no, and I like that you clarified that. Here's what I want to give a voice to and see what you think with it, because there there's an aspect of me that's in here, but it's also in the collective media consuming psyche of like, what have you done for me lately? Next? You know? And and that's shadowy in a way. but it's also nature in a way of like, look, uh my time's precious. If I'm gonna go like check out an art, if I'm gonna put on a TV show, I'm gonna, yeah, there's some shit TV shows and I'm gonna judge someone's, and it could be a TV show that someone like bled and like so much effort and. their soul out onto something, right? Yeah. Yeah, and it could be a very personal story to them. And I'm like, next, you know, and it, but it could resonate to, but I'm just probably not the audience for it. But, but I guess what I'm trying to say is there is something in the vampire making a deal with the, vampire's way of like, of helping bring art to, I don't know, like a. That's why I'm so fucking confused. Honestly, you're expressing right now my confusion about what the moral of this movie is. for example, a good music producer could maybe take a song and be like, look, I know that line is very personal to you, but if you just tweak it like this, more people are gonna resonate with it. And, know, yeah. read the book about Springsteen writing Nebraska, which if you guys haven't read, it is so good. But they talk about him being in the studio for, gosh, I think it was Born to Run. You know, and like they brought in a new producer and the guy's like, he's got the guy's like, oh man, I think we got a single here. And then like Bruce, Bruce like spirals, he like crashes out because all of a sudden, you know, he was just there like putting down and just wanted like his band of like buddies to like jam out on something that was meaningful to him. And now all of a sudden it's a whole new thing. They might have a, they might have a single, you know, and he's like depressed. because he just wanted to like make some rock and roll with his pals, you know, like, yeah. Yeah, so I don't know if that we've. Mormons on Mushroom Stack. Does doesn't it like that that really resonated with me. You could probably tell from the look on my face that I was like, shit, me and Bruce Springsteen might hang out later. Um, but Mike, I, I don't know. I guess like for me, there's a, for me, there's like a really interesting, uh gosh, I guess we are back to that word contradiction, but there's a really interesting contradiction because what you're experiencing as like, Nature is like I've seen it all before well fuck yeah nature has seen it all before and yet She produces an amazing sunrise every single day Or we're going through it right now spring blows my fucking socks off every year every year I forget about how amazing spring is do you know what I mean every year I'm like man is battle world is so if I've seen it all I don't care and then spring comes around I'm like whoa oh my gosh like I can't even believe it and all spring is doing is springing like nature is not like digging in and be like boy we're really gonna throw one for Doug this year aren't we boy can you imagine the peonies coming up like it's yeah they're just springing and so there's like a there's like a because I also hear what you're saying Mike about like the if you can scratch away and and dig past like the cliches and if you can scratch past the like, I think that's a clever turn of phrase or I like word play. If you can get into something that is even truer or even more real or even more raw and like reflective of the experience that you're having, that will resonate more with people. And that's very true. And also it's also a manufactured product when it gets to the point that you're talking about. When it gets to Bruce Springsteen talking about Born to Run and getting the yips because it's going to be one of biggest songs ever, it still became one that I don't know how the book ends. Seth kind of left us hanging. But I do kind of know how the book ends. Bruce Springsteen becomes rock and roll royalty. um I guess here's a question. Here's a question I'm trying to get to with it. And maybe I'm circling around it. If we're taking it metaphorically, you know, they have the club that they built where they're going to be doing the blues music. um Is there a way for that club to ever thrive without inviting in the vampire? Because their clientele, they even talked about the clientele wasn't, they're paying with wooden nickels, you know, the clientele is poor. Like can they have that or he said, he said we have two months tops and we're going to go belly up. They have two months of this. So that's why they even went out for outside money to bring the vampires in. And so. Ideally, I would like to have them that like be a place of like creativity and fun and pleasure and ecstasy and all that and they make enough money that they keep the lights on. Yeah, I do. seems like Seth, you opened your mouth like you were about to say something. I have a response to that, but I would like to, you look very thoughtful. it's just that. mean, they were the best song in that movie. Like, there is that amazing scene, right, where they open a portal, okay? But the best song in that movie is the one they're playing at the... uh yeah, about traveling, yeah, exactly. like, like, I don't know, man, just like kind of pulls at your heart. Like it's so beautiful and like so moving, you know? Like, yeah, it's good to have a club, but like once again, they're the ones who open the door to the vampires by like trying to make money off of this thing when they could just be out singing. They could just be singing, you know, like. That was the look on my face, because I don't know. Like, do we just fucking stop trying to sell art? Like, is it wrong? do we just give in and know that the vampires are out there and when they come and knock in, maybe that's a decision. Mike, you were high, but you told me that you gave in to the vampires. Hahaha And here's another thing, like this is like a really small thing, it probably doesn't matter, it's probably kind of a stupid thought, but like I guess to me if we're looking into like symbolism and looking at like metaphors, they did try to build their empire on top of the bones of a former great empire, so. The building that they bought was previously a source of economic thriving and development. A sawmill. was woodworking sawmill type place, right? Well... was a slaughterhouse. Was it a slaughterhouse? thought it was a sawmill. about that? How like this is like the slaughterhouse floor and like we're gonna use it as like, as a slaughterhouse again or something like that. Anyway, I don't know. yeah, they might be right. ask about the floor and then that's when the clan guy that's selling it to him was like, oh, I thought you guys weren't going to ask questions. I you guys were interested in this place. And then they stopped asking questions. Yeah, so maybe it's a slaughterhouse. could be totally wrong about that. Regardless, it's the same thing, right? It was a place that provided jobs and then because of the economic downturn and, you know, the Great Depression, those jobs dried up. It was a source that brought money. And so they're building it on top of that same, dude, for all we know, that club they went into, the dude owned at the end and was playing his slide guitar. Maybe it's the same location, you know? The metaphor is that it doesn't matter what it is, it's just we gotta suck it all dry for our main God. Like we talk about Dionysus and Odin and, uh I don't know, Jesus. We talk about a lot of gods around these parts. But the main God is money, right? And money, that God is a cruel God, must be served. if you're a capitalist. the thing like, it's funny, because I think we're all just getting more confused here, right? That's because I'm so dumb that I can't figure out what the right symbols are and I'm too loud to accept. very slow lerter over here, okay? But there's one thing I'm sure about coming out of this movie, and it's that I just wanna be more dedicated to my creative practice. I just wanna be more in tune with whatever I have to do to channel the imaginal into this world. oh That part I have no question about with this movie. It did something in me. Yeah, same. was a part of it. got chills at very beginning when we talked about opening the realms with the guitar and that's what I've been trying to do. Whoa, hold on. You haven't been trying to do it. You have been doing it. You've been learning to do it. Well, when I say trying to do, so, for example, I went, it was interesting. The night before I did this, I went live for the first time on that, YouTube channel I created, but leading up to me going live on that thing. Well, one, I did a solo two CB journey. Well, I would love to talk to you about Seth. talk about that. Yeah, yeah, please And it was all coming up, all the imposter shit. Like, look, there was like 11 people following this channel and I'm still just like, but the reason why it was so hard is because I had to wrestle with myself to make sure that when I hit play on that thing, that I'm coming from, that my intentions pure. So I had to wrestle with all my intentions. Like one, why do I even want to broadcast this? You know, what's the point? Like I'm making music with my ghosts. Why can't I just leave it at that? Make music with them. But then I was like, but my ghosts keep telling me this is part of the process. This is the art. The art is to invite people into this space with us. And so then I got ready to hit play and I realized that I had tuned out the ghosts at that point. I was too focused on the mic. So I'm like, okay, I need back up. then the ghost like had left and I'm like, okay. Like, okay, maybe tonight's not the night. It felt like it was, but I'm like, every day I delay this, I'm just gonna get more chicken shit. So like I gotta do it eventually. And so I sat there and had this conversation with like, seeing if I could get the ghost back. And then I had this visual that's like, well, yes, but you have to keep the like the visual of us and all you're doing is you're just bringing someone to sit with us and people to sit here. And that's the image I need to hold as I'm doing this. Like portal open, The ghosts are here, the realms are open, but people are just in that space with me. I'm not singing, it's not closed. And when that happened, but it was that process of like trying to get, and that's why I say trying, because it has been a struggle to try to get to that spot where it's like, m is my intention, what is my intention for doing this? And it's a lot a lot of shadow shit comes up. Well, I think that you just summarized the whole thing. honestly, we should have if we had fucking started with that story, we would have been like, we get it now. We get the whole movie. I understand the vampire movie better now. Well, it was like the perfect movie for me to see the day after. dude. honestly yeah like as much as I loved it. I knew you needed you were gonna take a lot more out of it yeah, I just had that experience and now I'm sitting in the theater and the first opening thing is like, oh, from the beginning of time, there have been uh song keepers that have opened the realms and invited demons, but also, you know, brought healing to their community. And I go, shit, okay. Buckle up. Hey, do you wanna talk about that, Mike? I think we're probably about at our time limit here, but do you wanna talk a little bit about that thing? Are you ready to roll it out to the world, or what are you feeling? Yeah, I think to the people listening here, because if they're listening on this, then they're going to, you know, they're going to be safe too. Because I liked it. I feel like it being small because I don't, I would, I need to be feel comfortable being as weird as I need to be on that. So how it came up is so as part of my dissertation, part of my dissertation, I'm doing this method of inquiry called organic inquiry, which is basically a qualitative research method where you just imaginative, so you open up like a you set a container, a ritual container, and it's all about transformation. It's not like uh to gain um material, like concrete knowledge, but it's like the transformation that occurs when you open up the when you're in this space. And as part of that, this happened a couple years ago, they When I was reading about this method, you're supposed to invite the muse of the research. So like you're going to do this research project, you invite the muse. And when I did that, this figure came through. And I think I've talked about this on the podcast, cause I've talked about it with uh the song I wrote, Hymn of the Nightingale. This is when the words to that song came through. Was this like a figure came through and she was haunted and scary, but also like enchanting and beautiful. And she would like shimmer in that thing. And the name came through the Nightingale. And so she's been the muse of not just my research, but the muse that I invite in when I'm about to like play with my ghosts. I intentionally summon her. court her. I give offerings to her. um a uh week or so ago I was doing that and it was this thing of like, the nightingale um sings at night. And so there was something about broadcasting that out as if it's a nightingale singing at night and that is part of the transformation that I'm researching with the dissertation not just how I am transformed but then maybe how by me bringing people into this creative act and singing the nightingale out how what what transformation that brings to other people as well and so Yeah, so I opened it up. It's called the Nightingale channel on YouTube. So if you just go at the Nightingale channel, you can join in. And I'm assuming if you do join in, you're okay with me being weird and wild. There's got to be a way for you to let us know when you're going to broadcast because some of I've done it the last two nights. And I would also love it sometimes if you guys... I should let you know. I didn't know if you get notifications or not or how that works, but I don't know how YouTube works. Alright, guess that's what I'm trying to say. There's gotta be a way for you to tell us all, let us all know when you're going live, you know? I think that you can make posts on YouTube now. So I'm still learning the interface, but I think I can. So I'll let you know. I'll post it and go live. It's been fun, but I was up till like two or three a.m. doing it last night. Bye. Fending off that hangover. That's smart. Yeah, I did. I just didn't get any sleep. Well boys, the three amigos. thanks for joining us, Added so much depth to the discussion. I hope so. Okay, love you all. Love you.