I Need Space to Find Out (#210) w/ Kelli Christine Case

Mike is joined again by Kelli Christine Case for a deep dive into life after Mormonism, the messiness of self-discovery, and reclaiming pleasure, power, and presence.

They explore:

• The grief and rebirth that comes from leaving Mormonism
• Codependence and control in Mormon structures (and how it shows up post-Mormon)
• Deconstructing dating, polyamory, and monogamy as evolving processes, not fixed identities
• Why emotional honesty is a superpower—and the freedom of saying “I don’t know”
• The importance of self-approval, shadow emotions (anger, disgust, hatred), and radical truth-telling
• The magnetic pull of embodied presence: dancing wild like it’s only you
• How creative expression becomes a path to reclamation

✨ Kelli Christine Case

Visit her website for more details:    kellichristinecase.com

Kelli's TikTok: @kellichristinecase

Links:
The Nightingale (YouTube)

Transcript

0:49

good morning. ah I feel like I am just barely getting started. You're the first person I've talked to today. And yeah, happy Father's Day. Thank you. I'm excited. It's gonna be a good one. think we're gonna, I'm gonna go to a movie with the kids and I think I'm gonna go to the beach as well. So we, yeah. Oh no, I won't share that. I just, the kids are being really cute. It's fun when they're adults and they, I don't know, they're, they're, I don't know, they're being cute. So yeah. at your Instagram because I haven't like fully tracked all your kids ages. You have like multiple grown adult children. Yeah, uh-huh. One just graduated high school even, so like, well, one is even older than that. So yeah, I've got two through high school, which is wild. I don't feel that old. Yeah, that's what Mormonism will do that to you, have full grown adult children at younger than 50. You're like barely 40. mid- like mid-four. I turned 45. So, you know, I had my first when I was 24. So he's gonna be turning 21 this year. And it just it's so, you know, it's funny. I'll run into people all the time, you know, because I think all the years of clean living, a lot of us ex-Mormons sometimes look a little younger than the average. People are always shocked when I tell them I have, you know, 20 year olds, but like... It's an interesting way to do life though. You know, the more I've kind of come to terms with it, there's a lot of grieving of past experiences and you know, the maybe normal human development if we call it normal, like Stan, you know, yeah, going through the phases when you're supposed to go through the phases. I mean, we've been talking about this a lot recently. Maybe this comes up in the episode a little bit, but it is just kind of also an interesting way to do life where we kind of did the kids first and then now. re-entering and revisiting some of those moments in my life at 45 when I'm a little more wise, a little more responsible. I don't know, so for me, I think it's been kind of a balance of what parts of my life do I want to, what parts of that do I want to re-experience or what parts of that do I grieve and let go of? And it's kind of a dance between the two, I feel like a lot. Yeah. That just leads me into more questions that I have to ask, because that's what, as we were talking before, I feel like I had questions for you about your experience with dating. And we've been talking about exploring sexuality after Mormonism. But it seems like you're alluding to maybe some of that. But I don't know. We can get there. We're going to get into it. Wait. Before you do, though, I wanted to also say, because I didn't ever respond, it's exciting that you have those songs that you just got recorded. It sounds like it was a really good time and they're going to be, how are you going to publish them or what are you going to do with them? Yeah, so I think Doug and I have been recording music. We've got one recorded and two that are maybe like 80, 90 % there. I just did put more vocals on one of them yesterday. And I think sometime this year we're going to like drop a few of them and then kind of enough for like an EP and hopefully for an album. So I mean, we've got enough songs, but it's been, yeah, it'll be on Spotify, all the platforms, Apple Music, everything. under Bombadilio, the band name. No, that's been a, that's another thing about like reliving something. You know, I feel like a lot of people start a band with their friends in their twenties and here I'm doing it at, you know, 45 with my friend. Yeah, yeah, it's so good. I love the music that I've heard from you and also your Nightingale. Have you talked about that on your podcast yet? I have a little bit. So I do a YouTube channel. It's just, I think it's the handle is the Nightingale channel. And where I, it's more of like a raw singing process or raw music process where I just at night, usually when I'm like in that creative process of just singing to myself or playing my songs I've written or trying to write new songs, you know, I'm usually just there by myself and I'm like, oh, what if I just hit play? and started recording that. And at first, you know, my first videos were all, it was just my voice. Now I'm starting to like turn on the camera, but I did one last night actually, well like late last night, like 1 a.m. Utah time. But I just had one candle going. So anyway, you can vaguely see me in it, but it's just me. I don't know. Sometimes I'm a little drunk, sometimes a little tipsy, sometimes a little high, sometimes it's just me. I don't know. But just a way of like... I feel like dropping people into that creative space where it's okay to be a little messy and weird and it's vulnerable. It feels a little bit like, know, metaphorically kind of like an OnlyFans like, you know, masturbating late at night, but like not literally, but burying a part of my soul, like it feels very vulnerable. And so it took me a while to kind of work up the courage to do it. I kind of like that. I actually really liked it. I mean, not a lot of people are. look. because it's like, I want it to grow at the pace where I'm comfortable being, I don't want to get to the point where there's too many people that I now feel, I don't feel comfortable being vulnerable in that space. oh So it's a dance with that too, a lot of dances. But first of all, we're joined by Kelly Christine Case. uh Again, Kelly, I just, I'm always so excited when you want to come and chat. And we've been like, you know, switching Marco Polo's back and forth. So we have got a lot we could talk about, want to talk about. And I know we've kind of dipped in a little bit here, but what's, what's on your mind? Well, first, do you want to just like, I mean, I, I like, we'll plug your stuff at the end. Let's do that. But like, uh, yeah. I've been kind of on a hiatus and I've been describing it as a cocoon and being really introverted. And as soon as I did that, I had like several people come to me and wanting to work with me because I do a somatic therapy method, but I'm not like super actively promoting my work with people right now, but I could say more later, but yeah. but you've also been more prominent on TikTok and social media, I've noticed. Yeah, and that was not intentional. was just almost like when I drew my energy back from other places in my personal life, it was like, oh, there's more energy available to show up on TikTok I've been on. And it's been a lot more fuck it energy, a lot more like, this is just, I just gotta put it out there. So yeah. But I think that's where the magic comes from is those moments where it's like, I'm not doing this for any reason other than I just feel like I want to share and share my voice. And it's, it's also interesting that what you were kind of talking about, like the more you pulled your energy in, it feels like you haven't needed to seek out opportunities or like, I don't know, like more things are coming. There's like a magnetism there of just being in your center, your power, calling back your own. I've found for myself, the more I've had boundaries over my time and my alone time, the more I naturally get experiences, they just kind of come to me. I've been enjoying that. Like, I feel like there was a long time of like, a big part of me that was trying to, that was fixating on other people and trying to control them, even though I didn't think that's what I was doing, unconsciously that's what I was doing. And I think recently I had this shift where I was like, I cannot even indirectly in the most spiritually conscious way. control other people's choices. Even if I tell myself I'm just being a good influence, it's for their own good, it's for my own good. It was like being able to see this really subtle and insidious way that I was subtly trying to get other people to do what I want so that I like, you know what I mean? It was like still ego. And so I just was like, wait a minute, the richness of just sitting in my own energy and enjoying my own peace and quiet. is so full and that's all I need. And em yeah, that was a couple of months ago. That is just like you're saying, it's like a magnetism. Cause as soon as I have done that, it's like, there's been this just like energetic abundance. Like I feel like I have so much time and energy to think for myself. That's what I'm posting on TikTok is like live for yourself, think for yourself. That's like the essence of what I have to say right now in life is, em talking about recovering from codependence, and I think specifically Mormon codependence, this specific flavor of it that I just think no one gets out of Mormonism without it, because if you didn't have... Because Mormonism is controlling you. It's all about control. So anyways, I won't go too far down that rubble hole right now, but anything that I have to say right now kind of revolves around that. So. that controlling, it's like, so I had to, I don't know how much I'm gonna get into this either, but like uh the recent Aubrey Marcus podcast that's been like making waves, you know, throughout the spiritual community. And for those, know, listening, don't know about our, I think there's, I think there's a pretty good Venn diagram of people who listen to this podcast and who at least know who Aubrey Marcus is. oh Because he has such a, like a, a uh face in the new age spiritual community. and especially in the last few years because of like his divine union with it quote-unquote with the big big with his Wi-Fi Lana they've been kind of like the poster children of this uh Monogamy divine union type stuff and then recently he came up and said that God commanded him to take a third into the mix a very Joseph Smith like vibes it wasn't like an angel with a flaming sword it was the goddess Isis and You know, we don't have go too much in this I when A couple weeks ago really wanted to go hard on this. But then I listened to that Zelf on the Shelf, Sam and Tanner did an episode that I was just going point people to because it's so good. But one of the things, why this is coming up for me is I noticed patterns in, not to the extreme, like I was never one of those guys who's like, I've got a priesthood revolution that you need to be, you we get married or... oh But the ways I subtly... have manipulated a little bit to like, and even like in a benevolent way, quote unquote, to try to get my needs met instead of just going for them directly. oh And it was an interesting mirror for me and watching that episode. like, ooh, I have a bit of an Abbey Marcus in me sometimes. Yeah. It's good. that, that who, who among us does not, right? It's helpful that I've been talking a lot about how this concept of the sacrificial lamb that we get from Mormonism with Jesus. And in a way I'm like, Aubrey Marcus is our sacrificial lamb of the perfect example of what not to do. Like how to, how to be a lying manipulator, because that's what's happening. Like he's practicing polyamory and he's calling it radical monogamy. Like, that's a confusing experience to have. anyways, yeah, in a way I'm like, okay, I can look to, yeah, the part of myself that's full of shit like that. And I can see it in this outside person. yeah, use it as to look inward at how am I doing that? Yeah. oh I think, you know, some of the best medicine, whether it literally or metaphorically, is to just smell your own farts, you know what I mean? To realize that, like, occasionally we're full of shit, both literally and metaphorically. um you know, it wasn't necessarily like what you're calling out. Like, I, when I was listening back to his episode that he did where they announced this new threeple they're in, um and calling it radical monogamy. You know, the thing is, it was triggering all my Mormon Spidey senses. And one of the things that I've loved about, I shouldn't say I loved, but like I've come to realize that through my Mormon experience, I've gained some, there's been some, because we've been through this thing where we were so into something, manipulated and then lost it. It's like my cult radar kind of. buzzes maybe sooner than people who haven't gone through an experience like that. uh so it was nothing about what they were doing. If he was just saying, hey, I know Vailana and I were in a marriage and now we're not. We decided together that we wanted to open up to a third and here's the third and this. I think people would be like, fuck yes. No. it's like I cannot punctuate that enough. No one cares. No one cares how many or how little people you sleep with if you're being open and honest and people are reacting to lying and yeah. So it's like got the energy of cheating. It's like, but how he's not cheating. He's doing a whole podcast. He's claiming that he's owning it and he's in full integrity with himself and with God. It's like, that is part of the lie. Like, yeah. Yeah, and this thing of like, because I agree with most of what they say about like monogamy in the first part that, you know, that like, humans, we have to like, we claim to be a lot more monogamous than we are, you know, most people are either uh practicing as form of like, uh serial monogamy, where they're going from partner to partner to partner. um Or, uh I don't know. I just, I agreed with that first part of the episode a lot. oh But I did then, um but one point I think though, a lot of people would care. I think one of the, or he feels like a lot would because he set himself up as the example of this like divine union, which, cause he was polyamorous before. And then he's like, no, this is the true way. Anytime we're getting to like the true way stuff, that's where it gets tricky because then it's like, no, God has shown me that I need to be in a divine union with someone and they become the image of that. Then you need to double down and say, wait, no, now the goddess Isis told me, you know, that's the way I think this, what Joseph Smith got caught up in too is like this. Once you. People believe you're ordained of God. You have to double down. It's what the church gets into nowadays. Everything has to be a little revelation. you can never admit you were wrong. You can never admit this. You can't apologize. You gotta keep doubling down on your revelations. Yeah, and I only watched the first 30 minutes of the podcast, but in the first couple of minutes, he said, I'm not trying to say this is how everyone has to live. This is just what we're doing. But then apparently like the whole rest of the podcast is about how this is an evolution of love for like the human fucking species. It's like, I just immediately knew that he was gaslighting me when he was saying that. And then, yeah, that's like, um, and you're right. So this is where you're pointing to something that's really important about the difference between Codependence which is always inherently woven in with narcissism and narcissistic abuse and That's like a buzzword. That's like a whole other thing that I won't necessarily get into But I do feel like Aubrey Marcus is like a poster child to me Maybe everyone wouldn't agree with this, but I'm like the he is the picture We very rarely have like a perfect example to point to of like this is narcissistic abuse, especially in that podcast um But I was saying, oh shoot, I just lost my train of thought. Oh, it was, it was, was, cause you were saying that, you were like, well, I think some people would care. And there's so many examples of people in the public eye who have a following, who've built a whole following, let's say, around like being vegan. And then they say, I'm not vegan anymore. And guess what? They have to pay the price of authenticity. Like that's the exact opposite of codependence and the insanity of narcissistic abuse is that you are going to upset people. People are going to say every bad thing about you. And you have to have the sense of self and the willingness to be in truth to let people not like you. his, in Aubrey Marcus's case, He has a much stronger agenda to have fans than actually to be in his truth. So that's my... Well, and as a mirror for myself with that, because I think about that often. thought about this with the podcast a lot, you know, with Mormons on Mushrooms. I mean, I feel like Doug and I, the most part, have been, and we've kept each other in check with this a lot of like, look, we don't want this to be us preaching, this is, this is a new way to do it, or this is the way, whenever we get into that spot of this is the way, we have to check ourselves. And it's, you know, Yeah. the way, right? Instead of like, this is a fun thing we found and this is a fun story that happened and maybe you get something out of me telling the story about my life that resonates with you. uh But it becomes a little bit like, uh you know, from Mormon terms, Lehi's dream, as soon as you pick the fruit, taste it, and it's that. That connection with source that we have a lot, those spiritual moments, whether they come through meditation, whether they come through an experience you had in the Mormon church, whether it comes through like a plant medicine ceremony, this experience of like tasting the fruit and then saying, telling everyone, this is the way everyone needs to taste this fruit. And as soon as you do that, you're setting up, that's when the cult forms around it. and as in proper culty confessional form because Mormons have such a fixation on confession. I'm like fully confessing to like totally guilty of that. Like I left Mormonism 11, 12 years, like more than 10 years ago. And I have been such an evangelist for every other cool thing I have found since then. I'm working on deconstructing the way that Mormonism had built an infrastructure in my brain to take anything, not just, that's where you're saying like you agreed with the content of what Aubrey Marcus was saying in the beginning of the podcast about monogamy. And it's like, it kind of doesn't even matter what the content is. If the structure that's holding the content is, um, abusive, like if it's an abusive religion or relationship structure, it's like, it doesn't matter how good the times are. You know what I'm saying? Like it's like it. And so anyways, that's what I have had to come to realize. Like, after I left Mormonism, I picked up so many other cool spiritual truths and like belief systems that are so much less harmful. But then I continued perpetuating harm in the Mormon culty way that I was. have been carrying those things. We're natural evangelists, right? Leaving Mormonism, we're good at... Well, it was funny because... you know, like, because I was like, I want to knock down those doors, like. Exactly. And you know, there's an adorable part of Mormonism with that. Like, so you were talking about us recording music. We recorded last week with a uh producer out here in Los Angeles, and he set us up with a drummer. And we had such a blast, the four of us in there. know, Doug and I, this is only our second time in a recording studio. And so we're just like novices, you know, and uh I still don't even know how to play my guitar to like a click track, like a rhythm, like... Okay, yeah. did the grunt work. He's been learning that, uh but it's not natural for him either. We're used to playing live where you don't need to keep it at that pace. And so he's in there sweating, just trying to get the guitar track down, you know, and, uh but I bring it up because, you know, we get self-conscious about that. So we're in there in that space and we're just like, look, yes, we're sorry that like we, we're not, we're shitty technical musicians. Like I think like, We are musicians, just technical is what we struggle at. And they're like, look, we're loving your guys' kid in the candy store energy here. It's like everything is new. Everything is like, and I'm like, okay, well, we can keep bringing those vibes. And I think a lot of times leaving Mormonism, it's kind of, we do kind of have that kid in the candy store type energy on new things and new experiences. I don't know. I guess we could go like how, cause now at 10 years, Like, what are some of the things you learn? And we've talked about a little bit monogamy, non-monogamy. We've talked about, I don't know, we could go in a variety of different ways, but I want to know what fills the life for you right now. kind of wanted to hear more because you and I were chatting on Marco Polo um when we were talking about this Aubrey Marcus thing and you had mentioned, I mean, yeah, we can go anyway. I think I'm just kind of curious about what you're learning and experiencing about life. And like you said, there's um this is how I think I was describing it to you, kind of repeating what we were saying on Marco Polo. ah This is my take that um a healthy human being has natural psychological uh development and that needs to happen through stages of their life. m like indigenous cultures have rites of passage to facilitate, like there's like a lot, it's not just one that you have, you know, it's like leaving from childhood into early adolescence and then adolescence into early adulthood and then early adulthood into true adulthood and then at elderhood, you know, it's like you have so many passages and we do have um rituals in Mormonism that have equally Cause like whether you have a cult ritual or like some grounded down to earth indigenous ritual, they work. It's a technology is what it is. Like it affects your psyche. And so we had all these like Mormon rites of passages that were specifically set up to get us to be good Mormon tithe payers and not to individuate. psychologically to become a self, become the unique person that you are. And so what I was saying is that we leave Mormonism and it's like the natural developmental process that had been stopped. It's been a stoppage that's been waiting to get unstopped. Like as soon as the conditions are right, those processes can pick back up. And so a lot of this conversation about polyamory and monogamy, a lot of times I think that people are talking about, because those are, those both of those words are nouns. So they're talking about them, whether it's something that is a good idea to do or not. But we as humans and our individual individuation process and our psychological development is a verb. It's a process that's underway. And I think of it like a river that's ideally flowing and then it's like it gets frozen by Mormonism and certain aspects of the river maybe can continue on. And that's where we're encouraged to, you know, pursue a career and you, you know, get a degree, get degrees. And so we can develop in all these certain ways. And then things like our sexuality are hindered and stayed frozen and never got to truly Develop and be unstuck let alone be integrated. So we have people who are ex-mormon in you know, leaving getting divorced uh or opening their marriages in like middle of adulthood and So ah I was kind of I think advocating for how it's we need to just change the way that we're thinking about this because everybody in their body who leaves Mormonism can sense, like something needs to happen. Like there's this development that wants to happen and that's life-giving and right. And yet it seems like it's going to fuck up my whole life because I have to pick up the process, like maybe the psychosexual developmental process that got stopped when I was... 19 or 16 or 15 or whatever everyone's situation is different, you know, and yeah, so I was advocating for thinking of ourselves like verbs and Polyamory monogamy, this is the last thing I'll say and then I want to hear from you about just how this lands with you and resonates with your personal process, but Polyamory monogamy those are two words that we have to describe relationship agreements and relationship structures of terms for how many sexual partners you'll have. That's essentially it, right? At a time. And... um I do think that there is value in those functions in like saying this is the structure that I'm agreeing to that I'm using in my life right now. uh But I think that I feel like even sex therapists and ex-Mormon sex therapists and people who have have PhDs in the cult recovery and psychological development. it's, I'm just like, well, I don't have all of that experience. I just have the firsthand experience of knowing that it's not as cut and dry as one or the other. It's just like, it's more like what questions am I asking? Am I living in a way that's helping me grow as a human being? Am I living in alignment? Am I? integrating all the different parts of myself? Am I working to uh overcome self-deception? Which is like the process that that begins when people start questioning and leaving Mormonism and it's like, you don't stop, yeah, anyways, you're not gonna stop that process. So that's, I'll stop my little rant now and I wanna hear from you. This is good, Kelly. No, and I love how you're talking about like getting away from nouns and changing it to verbs, right? I think just us being so much more fluid than we think in so many different ways. And I do feel like a lot of times this uh notion of like monogamy or polyamory gets um Bogdana, I think it's a false dichotomy sometimes. And there's just so many parts to touch on here. me just, so what I felt in my own kind of exploration that sometimes those past moments that I feel like I missed out on, that those desires, I feel, they kind of come flooding back like a dam breaks sometimes. And it's like, all of a sudden I'm having memories of when I was uh repressing or holding back when I was 15 years old, 16 years old, when I was on my mission, after my mission. Like these times when I've like held myself back from fully living life or having experiences because I was afraid of sinning or I was afraid of, uh I mean, that sexual energy is such a potent one. I mean, it's the creative, I think it's. Equivalent to the creative life force of everything and it's the it's a thing that causes birth and destruction I mean it is a very potent energy and so when it's like It comes back pretty strong in a way. Um, and so navigating that especially in the last, you know, two years being single an ex-mormon oh feel like I'm all over the place with my thoughts here, but I think that's part of the mess of it all, is been trying to, okay, like I said, there's a balance for me in a dance of, um think there's experiences that I can't have anymore, or like I've passed that window and I need to just grieve and be there with myself and grieve the fact that, a part of me really wanted to have this experience and now it can't, and I need to just. be with the death of that and grieve it. And then there are other times when it's like, you could get into a very like monk-like uh mentality with that, where I'm just grieving everything and I'm afraid to dip my toe in and actually live because I'm afraid of, I don't think there's any way to expand without making some mess. We don't emerge gracefully from a cocoon and just be like, here I am. uh Merging from a cocoon is... Like I've made a lot of caterpillars die in the process. It's a, it's a messy, uh, it's a messy experience when you're emerging from a cocoon. And, um, sometimes that there's no safe way to do it where we're not going to affect other people around us. We're not going to influence them. We're not going to maybe hurt them too. And, um, and I think they, going back to this thing of Mormon perfection, just doesn't. It doesn't have to be perfect and it's okay to be in the mess and it's okay to be in the mess with people and to be navigating it and figuring it out. um I mean, that's a general way where I'm doing it, but we can get into more specifics, but I just wanted to, yeah. Yeah, I love it. It's beautiful. that's just, it's so true. Like you have to, it's in a, think an essential part of leaving Mormonism is giving up that addiction to perfection. That's like, there's Marion Woodman, a student of Carl Rogers wrote that book, Addiction to Perfection. And, um Yeah, you have to be willing to embrace your humanity and embracing the cringe and the disgust. that goes into what uh me talking about recovering from Mormon codependence. An essential part of this whole process for me has been really looking at how far out of Mormonism I have gotten and all the travels I've done all around the world. and how there was still such a deep um rejection of uh hatred, anger, and disgust. Like those and yeah, those three feelings especially. And those feelings just are going to be part of the process of reclaiming your whole self. And you're going to act in ways that If you're going to leave Mormonism and following the template of being a good boy or a good girl so that you get external approval, the exact equal and opposite of that is confronting all the ways that you dislike what is out there in the world and the ways that other people dislike you and that you have to disapprove of other people and other things and... face that other people are going to disapprove of you. It kind of goes back to what you were saying about, um like some people, if Aubrey Marcus just owned that he was polyamorous, that some people would cancel him, you know, that they were following him for that divine union thing. uh It's like that happens, that happens. You have to choose yourself and you have to choose to live authentically. You're going to be a human. You're going to do things messy. and you're gonna do things that people don't like. That's like a message that ex-Mormons need to hear. If you are living, you can't do it in a way that pleases everybody. You have to start to source your own self-approval as being more important to you than anything else. And I think ironically, as ex-Mormons learn to source self-approval above everything else, they can live and behave in ways that are less and less shitty for other people. But it's like a sloppy messy transition that really gets hairy I feel like I've been, uh you know, the last few years especially come- made conscious, I guess, how much I still seek approval, right? And so that confession spirit of even the way I just said that, right? Like I'm wanting your approval. Do you agree with what I just said? Kind of don't, you know? uh And how, you know, you were talking about something earlier about um being in your own energy and then letting things come to you in that way. um So. Let me get into a specific about like, for example, like dating post-mormonism, right? You know, at first, when I was, you know, first downloaded the apps, it was kind of a little exciting. like, oh, this is something I've always kind of, you know, been curious about ever since the apps came out, but I had been married for 20 years. So was like, okay, you know, this is not, this is not never going to be part of my life. And so it's kind of fun. You're window shopping, you're going back, you know, swiping left, right, doing all the things. And then, um, I don't know. I just realized I don't like them. Like, but then this is where I get into. I, so I'm off the apps right now. Cause I'm just like, look, I'm going to just be in my energy focus on that. And then I like meeting people out when I go to concerts or, know, go around. I, the last episode I talked about people I'd met in Portugal, prancing around Portugal. Um, that's kind of my preferred method, but then there's a part of me that's like, or is this me still wanting to do it perfectly? You know, am I, am I off the apps because I want to be like, no, I don't do it. It do that. Right. There's like a dance there. But then anytime when I'm like, okay, I'll download it again. I get on it for a hot minute. And then I just feel like I'm so much time and energy is focused on this thing that's taking me away from presence. Yeah. find that I'm at home and like even like in a week when I'm here with the kids and if I'm on, if I have apps, you know, I'll check the app occasionally. who's like, you know, this, and then I'm like, well, that's taking me away from this experience right now of being here with my kids where what if I'm fully here and present while I'm here? And then when I'm not, when I'm at the apartment, we kind of go back and forth between a house and an apartment. Uh, when I'm there, then it's like, okay, now I can be more in single mode, but like. There's a lack of presence that feel like, at least for me, the apps pull me from. Yeah, exactly. I'm like, I don't know, maybe you do have the part of you that's still trying to do it perfectly. And, but you can play with that in other arenas. Like the apps, like it's, it's, it's a huge, they're huge corporations and um they are, it's like social media. They're just more social media. It's just em definitely can be a major waste of time. just depends. I feel like it's more trying to get me to pay. It's trying to get money from me, right? So it's like the algorithms are designed to get me to pay for a premium thing or get me to pay for like a surge or get me to do this. then, you know, it's to keep you paying. It's because of that. It's like, just, I don't know. um I mean, that was one. Yeah. no, I was just gonna say, I feel like you told me when you made a connection with somebody when you were traveling in Portugal, you just referencing, right? And you met that person in person, not on an app. And um you were saying that you felt so like yourself or true to yourself, something like that. um Is there something alive there about that? Like it feels more true to you. So this is interesting because one of the songs that we were recording this last weekend is a song called Austin Nights, which is a song that I wrote when, beginning of my separation and was going through the grief and had this experience of being in Austin, visiting a friend. And, you know, it my first trip kind of away as single, you know, I was single for a few months, horny as fuck, you know, kind of just like. Going to a new city. So of course, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna download tinder and you know, let's see if I can make a connection here in Austin, but uh you know, I'm I was finding quickly that like uh the dating game or like the like even the Pickup game picking people up. I don't know how to do that or I've been out of the game for 20 years I feel like I've gotten so much better at it in the last two years by by by just being myself right by like by not I don't if I like I see a person that I'm interested in, I'll go and instead of like trying to pick them up, it's just like, hey, I'm Mike, know, just like talk to them like a normal person. I, that's where, can I just interject something quickly? I don't want to stop because I feel like you're getting to the essence of something more, but. We all absorbed so much from older generations about how to do relationships and how to date and like picking up. It's just, it's insane. And then once we've rejected Mormonism, we don't realize like how much more there is to continue deconstructing and rejecting. And it's like, Oh, wait a minute, the whole point, the whole point of why I'm doing this isn't to go stick myself into some archaic 40 year old idea of how to interact with. somebody I'm sexually attracted to, the whole entire point is to source my own way of living and being and interacting with my own sexuality and other people who may be who I'm attracted to. like, how do I just do that as a human being and do that authentically? And it seems like that's what you're saying is like, concepts of what I should do versus I'm actually, got this cut me. No, like the reason those concepts exist, like picking people up and all the old tropes of going to the bar. And it's because those are from a generation that didn't have the internet, that did not have therapy, that did not have know how to access themselves. So like, I don't need to rely on those stereotypes of what to do because I have all those things, right? thank you. This is so good for me, Kelly, because I shame myself a lot for not dating a lot, right? But what I've found recently is I've always been a good, I read people really well. That's just a strength I have. And owning my strength to like, even before I met my wife when I was in college. I didn't go on a lot of dates, you know, but that I think that's an old antiquated notion. But like, I was meeting women all the time and I was interacting with women all the time. And I was already getting a read. Like I didn't have to go and date the whole campus of Utah state to quote unquote, date the whole campus. I was always checking vibes and this and very rarely, I'm sure it's happened, but very rarely have I, I'm trying to think of any of the like the quote unquote dates I've been on in the last two years. They all went almost as I was expecting. was surprised by very few of them. um And this is more me saying to trust my own intuitive and my own barom, like my own attraction. Like if my body's feeling attraction, it's because of a certain thing, right? If it's not feeling attraction, I shouldn't be like, wait, why am I not feeling that in this? And maybe I can get it to feel attraction. No, there's a reason why. And to almost follow Follow your bliss, follow the attraction, follow that thread of curiosity. And if there's any dating advice that I've learned in last two years that hopefully maybe I can pass on is that if you're meeting someone out in the wild, take away, strip away any notion of goal and just be like, oh, I just want to go, I'm curious about this person. This person maybe is attractive to me or there's something about the energy that I want to. to learn better, know better. And so just go up and just like you would if it was someone you weren't attracted to, you would just get curious. And that curiosity creates this, oh yeah, and then there's no goal. And then usually when there's no goal and it's just curious, then all of a sudden it allows the room for something to kind of bubble there. And I don't know if bubble's the right word, but yeah. It allows for something to happen if there is going to be some sort of sexual connection. that? Yeah, and I also think like being aware too of what your goals are and your conscious and unconscious goals, which uh like. For a long time I was thinking after I got divorced that I needed to date because it's just what you're supposed to do like it was just the conditioning was so deep inside of me and It was only in the last like year that I have realized uh That's like I just wanted very briefly deconstruct dating propaganda because it's like Dating is like data gathering about another person to like court them to like have this end goal of like this pretty patriarchal nuclear family thing like get married and like we could talk I could talk a lot about how marriage really benefits men more than anything and so it's like us leaving ex-mormon like leaving Mormonism and then dating like every you know, maybe some individuals have the goal of finding another spouse, but a lot of ex-mormons are not looking for that at all and actually are like, I'm just trying to explore my sexuality and being able to just be honest with yourself about that and own it and being forward with the people that you're connecting with, that is going to go a very long way in... things being less messy or less shitty for everyone, right? It's just being able to be honest about what you're really looking for, especially ex-Mormons who a lot of times are not looking for another eternal companion. And I was going to say, for the ex-Mormons who are, like when you are looking for a long-term committed partner, like being able to be like, why? Why am I looking for a partner? Like, am I looking for somebody to take care of me? Am I looking for somebody to be codependent with, you know? So. I'm very encouraging a shadow work of looking at my, your unconscious reasons for why you're doing what you're doing. It's really interesting because I find myself, it's one of the things I've found really kind of annoying about the dates or the dating scene, especially here in Los Angeles. um You know, because I'm in a state of life where it's like, no, I was uh monogamous for 20 years with one person. Now I'm in the stage like I want to explore myself. And a lot of people uh like my same age in Los Angeles are now like, oh, I'm here to find my ride or die, which I was kind of funny. Okay. So now. You're in your mid-40s and now you want to find the ride or die. I think we get worried that we're going to be alone when we're... I mean, there's a lot of reasons, and so I don't want to shame someone's reasons for wanting like a... They might just want that experience of being chosen and that pair bonding closeness and intimacy, which is also beautiful. But I think there's also a fear we have as humans of being 80 and alone. But I always think, you know, if you look at those retirement homes, Usually the single ones are the ones who are less alone than the ones who are. Right. Um, but, to kind of, I want to go back to this Austin thing. can weave in it. Cause I saw I was in Austin. Oh, I, by the way, this, this podcast is all about detours inside. But I do want to, sometimes I forget to return to the point, but, but this ties into what we were talking about at the very beginning. So that's why I want to touch back on it. and it. Anyways, I was having a great time in Austin with my friends, but I wasn't like connecting with too many. I mean, I would talk to some, you know what? There was no romantic connections happening. And the very last night I was at uh a midnight concert for the midnight, the band. Um, and it's my favorite band. um, I just recently seen them in LA and, know, in LA, it was a very mixed crowd. And then when I was in Austin, it was just like a sea full of dudes. was like, okay, well, it's not happening for me tonight. And so I just like dropped into my own. I was like, I'm just going to be the biggest fan of the midnight at this concert. And so I'm just like dancing. I have a line in the song that says I'm dancing wild like it's only me. Cause I was just dancing wild. was singing every lyric. And then as I'm doing that, like I sense like this uh woman come up from, you know, behind me like to my side and I turn and it's this bombshell, beautiful woman who's just as geeked out hardcore midnight fan as I am. So for the next, like the last 10 songs, we were singing every line, we were dancing together, we were just like vibing together. And, uh, you know, I chatted with her briefly afterwards, her name was happy and she, I've already told the story in the podcast, but I think it bears repeating here, but like, And then she went off into the night and I will never see her again, but I'll see her, the capital H, that onyma that came in when I was just in my own energy, not giving a fuck, not trying to force anything, not trying to make something happen. I was just dancing wild like it's only me. And I feel like that was the same energy that I brought when I'm talking about Portugal that night when I'm just like, I'm just. gonna be here, I'm gonna be me, I'm gonna be magnetic and just be me. Even saying I'm gonna be magnetic is that like puts a little pressure on it. I don't mean that, just mean just doing whatever the fuck I wanna do and saying what I wanna do, there's an energy that comes with that and a magnetism. And realizing that like, I don't have to chase so much. I don't have to constantly scroll through apps. I don't have to be searching for something exterior to complete me. If I can find that completeness within, I don't want to get too law of attraction-y here, but it just kind of works. It kind of happens. And maybe it doesn't happen exactly that night, um but sometimes it kind of does. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. I guess I kind of stop the conversation. Yeah. you told the rest of the story. I love it. That's just, that's exactly it. That's the whole thing, right? It's like. Enjoying yourself. That's honestly what I think the heart of leaving Mormonism is is learning to enjoy So it's like a play on words there. It's like I'm just gonna enjoy myself But it's also like enjoying myself enjoying who I am enjoying my own company I don't have to because I think a lot of Mormons um Don't realize how much the layers of self-deception are happening where they actually root like they know like so many people will say I knew that I didn't believe even though I was a gospel doctrine scholar, I knew that it was bullshit. I just couldn't admit that I knew that I knew that it was bullshit, right? Just the layers of self-deception. The only reason you would ever do that. to yourself, well maybe there's a lot of reasons, there's social reasons and all of that, but I really think that it all boils down to self acceptance or self approval and self rejection or not. It's like, if I can just say, I value my interpretation, my opinion, my experience, and if I really value this person is sitting in this uh gospel doctrine lesson and... The truth is that at the core of this person, they're saying, this does not make sense. I am not lit up by this. I'm bored by this. They could just value. That's what's true. That's what this person really thinks and feels and believes. It's like, you don't need to do all that bullshit pretending. You can, you're free. You're free to go. So that's like, yeah, enjoying yourself and living for yourself is like the essence of being free from Mormonism and Mormon codependence. I love that. look, I, so for me too, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot for me in the, like the dating world now is this thing of like monogamy polyamory, like we're talking about. And I don't just, I hate almost getting into the conversations because I just don't like the labels of it. Because if you just break down the word polyamorous, multiple loves in a way. I'm always going to love multiple people. Now, I be sexually exclusive? Yeah, I could if it was with the right person. But then there's also like this thing of like, um would have, like what I'm finding for myself that I've always, I guess, wanted but never had the chance to have uh in a marriage was oh friends, deep friendships with people, with women. Yeah. I have like so many deep friendships and not just intimate friendships where we talk about very vulnerable things. And I can't imagine giving that up. If that, know, for me, so it's kind of like, I don't know. So that's just something I'm, but I guess I don't need to define it yet. I mean, it was kind of funny. last episode, Doug and I talked about like fluidity and sexuality and not needing to define it. And now here I'm also like this. spectrum between monogamy and polyamory is like I don't need to define it within myself either because I'm still exploring what my own edges and boundaries are and stuff with it and it's uh don't know Yeah, yeah, I want to respond to that, um because... There's like two thoughts in there and I wanted to just go slow with like, yeah, you not wanting to define it. And that's like, also, you know, we say like polyamory or monogamy are these, they're nouns and they do technically this could get, we could have, I could, there's so much more that I could say right here. Just, I will try to keep it brief though about um morals, about this concept of morals, which is like, um that you could ever say. what somebody should do in a particular situation. Like they should have done this one specific exact thing, and that's what would be morally right or wrong. And I think there's major arrogance in thinking I could ever say exactly what another person should or shouldn't have done exactly. That's just not how it goes. Like, let's the... um the conditioned mind in Mormonism thinks that way. You think that you could just apply these rules to yourself and oppress yourself enough to get the outcome of eternal salvation. And by those of us who have deconstructed Mormonism know that that is an illusion, that that's a mirage, like it never is fulfilled. It's a tool for being controlled. And so this is where... this concept, I'm going to tie this all together. Okay, yeah. the tool for being controlled? Like that if you could say, if you could keep the commandments and then I'm going to be worthy in the eyes of God. Or I could follow all these rules and then I get a temple recommend and then I get to go into the temple and then I get to keep the covenants and then I get to get to have the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. What amazing promises that the church makes that they do not have to deliver on. Like it's a mirage. It's never, it's. So to think that I just need to do this one specific thing in this one specific way, or this other person should do this one specific thing in this one specific way, then we'll all have this eternal salvation. Then we'll all enjoy redemption together. And I am saying, I'm calling the bullshitness on that way of thinking. It's like the all or none, black or white thinking that you have inside of Mormonism. And... That's where you have to be able to see the reality of life itself, which is that things just happen and then more things happen. And it's like, if you can, that's where I'm bringing back in um what for me has been essential in deconstructing Mormon co-dependence, uh approving of shadow emotions. Like I said, anger, hatred, and disgust are the three biggest ones for me right now. If you can let yourself have those emotions and let other people have those. let people be disgusted with you, let people hate you, then there's freedom because you get to be living in alignment with life. You don't have to try to get yourself to keep the commandments. You don't have to try to get yourself to m be perfectly one thing or the other. And that's where I think the false dichotomy of monogamy or polyamory and that it's really a fallacy to think that you could even perfectly say, you know, like technically you are either having one partner or multiple partners at a time. But even that just gets like really dicey. Like if we really start to just pull apart all the threads, it comes back to like what you were just saying about how you, for you, which surprised me, we were talking about this on Marco Polo the first time you mentioned that, which was like, you could never go back to traditional monogamy because you value emotionally connective friendships with women. intimate emotionally connected friendships with women. And it took me by surprise because I like forgot that that's even a concept in traditional monogamy. I'm like, well you could, and so many people would argue and say, you can definitely just have one sexual partner and be emotionally intimate with all these other women. And, but then you, that begs the question of like, at what point does, that oh intimacy blend into sexual intimacy. When does that happen? because part of that thing is, maybe we're not having sex, but we're talking about it. it's not without emotion, there's a charge there sometimes. And sometimes there's a uh flirty vibe with the friends that I have. it blends into, they're not just platonic. The friendship that I have with women, each one's its own unique. container in a way, right? And so it's like, and each one, like there's, can expand, it's its own thing. It's a relationship in a way, even though it's not defined as a relationship. Like I have relationships with my guy friends. I have relationships with my girlfriends. We have a relationship. We're just not in a relationship. And so, but then what does it mean to be, then you put these like, rules and boundaries on it. And I get like, there needs to be a structure for whatever relationship you're in. And sometimes there needs to be like boundaries set. But um I'll feel so much more fluid to me than that. So that would be really hard. then plus, I've gotten this, yeah, it seems like you want to say something. Yeah. Yes, please, please. point right now, um it begs the question when you're like, of course you have to have boundaries. Of course you have to have, well, it begs the question, why? Like, why are you, if you're in a monogamous relationship, because all of us, when we're talking Mormons on Mushrooms podcast, we're all coming from the background of Mormon temple marriage monogamy. And so the reason why, we had those in the past was so that we could fit into this patriarchal oppressive paradigm. And at this point, it's like, if you want, like if you are pursuing, if you're ex-Mormon and you're letting your sexual, sexual development, you know, unfold and you're pursuing a monogamous relationship, why? Not that there's a right or wrong answer or a good or bad, but are you aware of why? And I think a lot of people are using monogamy. as a substitute for things that they potentially should be offering to themselves, like self-approval and security. uh And that's the last thing that I was wanting to say, which was like, personally, my personal opinion that I strongly advocate for is to change, think, I think for ex-Mormons in particular, to change the question of less about like, should I be monogamous or polyamorous and more about like, Am I being honest with myself about, it's the same thing, it's the process that I would hope happened when they're sitting in that gospel doctrine class. Am I being honest about what I think and what I feel and what I want? And am I valuing who this person is? Am I approving of what this person wants and doesn't want? And when it's coming from a place of deep self-acceptance and self-approval, then you can have the project not be, do I fit myself into this noun or this noun, like monogamy or polyamory? The project is just like, how do I be kind to myself and others? How do I integrate all of these different things that are happening inside of me? And it's gonna be messy. But the mess that comes from... lying to yourself and lying to other people versus the mess that comes from the intention to, I'm just learning about who I am and discovering who I am and discovering life. That is a very different mess that, yeah. So that's what I wanted to say. I think you just summed that's really that what you said there at the very end about like it's a very different type of mess is kind of that you and tying it back to the Aubrey Marcus stuff in the beginning with like when I was seeing reflection of him and me and realizing the times when I've tried to uh even unconsciously manipulate it wasn't like it wasn't like malicious consciously it was just I think growing up I just learned to, like, I felt like I couldn't just go for my needs. I had to kind of, you know, manipulate, smooth the waters, do this to kind of sneakily get my needs met. um With that mirrored back, uh those are the times when it actually created more mess than when I was just, I was in like more of a vulnerable, like a spot where, like expressing my feelings in the moment, being like this, if I could. So if going back in time, I could, if any, you know, I had to go through the experiences I did, but I would love to go back and just be like, being able to express my feelings in that given moment instead of, in express my needs in that given moment, even if the needs are nebulous. It's like, I feel this need. So, I mean, just to be specific, oh you know, there was a time it was soon after doing mushrooms for the first time. was soon after doing MDMA for the first time where I was feeling like, oh, there's like, the energetics of sex, where, you know, before Mormonism, I just felt like was all physical, but like, there's an energetic component there. And there was like, I think I was feeling a lot of... ah regret, I guess I'll write like that I missed out on uh having experiences with other people. And the first time I did that, because before when I thought it was physical, I'm like, I don't I don't. There's nothing to mourn there. But then I'm like, there is something. But I didn't know I didn't I wasn't going to therapy yet. I wasn't doing working with dreams. I you know, I wasn't doing anything. Self, like I didn't know how to express and I was emotionally immature. And so I didn't know how to express my emotions. And so instead I tried to like sneakily like manipulate the situation. Whereas I wish I could just been honest with like, look, I don't know what I'm feeling right now. I just feeling like I want more experiences, but I love this, you know, but I'm just in this like weird tension that I don't know what to do with. And maybe not even voice it that way, but find a way to like be authentic to this like. swirl of feelings that are contradicting each other and maybe part of it's like, look, I've got stuff to sort out for myself. I need space to just sort out what this is before I even try to voice it because it's so, it's like a knot that's all tied up. Maybe that's part of it. Repressed sexuality becomes like a knot that it's hard to unpack. Yeah, you really just said that beautifully. I feel like you just gave people who are listening a template to try that themselves. Like, hey, I have the intention to, you're describing emotional honesty or emotionally authentic, like to just. accurately represent this is how I'm feeling. This is and that I don't know. Like that's a big part of recovering from Mormonism is knowing mind. Like I don't know. I don't know what I need or what I need next, but I need some time and space to figure it out. em But yeah, you just described like that's, uh I know we talked to the beginning about the work that I do with people. That is exactly it. It's helping them to create a space to be with themselves and to just first of all, get in touch with what's there and start to let it come forward. And it doesn't have to be any sort of way and just describing how it actually is. And then in relationships, being able to learn the skill of saying this is accurately how I'm feeling right now. So, Kelly, I wish we had more time to dive into more of this, but um I had an experience with that in talking to, I don't know, my ex or whatever, but we had a very vulnerable conversation a few weeks ago where I think for one of the first times I just was able to just keep it in that I feel this, I felt this, I feel, you know, and then sometimes we would try to get into this thing of like, well, what does that mean? like, no, no, it doesn't mean anything. Yeah. like a couple of times we would try to get in this like, let me push back on that. Like, wait, there's nothing to push back on just to be clear. You might have any different experiences. I'm just voicing my experience. you can then say, I felt this and I felt this, but there's really nothing for any of us to push back on here. It's hearing each other in our felt experience of what we went through and what we're going through. And I can't imagine anyone better to work with than you on this. No, really, I mean that. I don't just, I really think you in the way you've navigated and then the stuff you've learned over the, you know, the 10 years uh leaving Mormonism and the way um you navigate it with such like authenticity and grace and. uh And messiness, know, and you've been vulnerable about the messiness of it. And so I think you're like, um so in other words, how do people find you to work? And then my website, Kelly Christine Case is still available. And also it's pretty, I don't know, can people shoot me a message? Can you put my way to contact me or go to my TikTok? How about follow me on TikTok, Kelly Christine Case on TikTok and you can send me a DM there. Yeah. people fall like I'm really loving the TikToks and they just heard like I said when it's coming from that space of like I just want to like I feel like I want to share it so I'm going to share it that's that's where it's magic Yeah, that's exactly, that's the same thing. It's the same thing as you talking about emotional honesty and authenticity and practicing that with your ex. It's just being able to, it's that self-approval of saying, is this person, I'm gonna give them a microphone, I'm gonna let them just say what they think and feel. And um what you were just describing with your ex, Like to me, the irony is because you were talking about that with an ex, but, that in my experience, that is uh poetry. That is when I learn that skill and I can have somebody meet me there, that's actually the place of being in love with life. And you can meet anybody else in that space of the melty, goopy, this is my felt experience. Like it's instead of saying like I looked at the sunset, it's like the... the peachy melting raspberry sorbet hues, know, like you're, you're described like, like what can, no one can argue with the truth. Like if in this moment I am petrified or, you know, I'm, I'm seeing red. I'm so furious. Like all of that is so, that's the space of love. And so, you know, you can, as you learn to cultivate that skill. learn how to express yourself and how you're really feeling honestly, in a way, you can meet in the place of love, which is really the place of life and where things can be just flowing and open with anybody. There's a freedom that comes from it too, that I felt, because it was like this freedom of like, when I was able to just voice some of those things without judgment, without me judging them, and then being witnessed in me just expressing kind of just like the raw emotions of it, and speaking to the emotion, not from it, just kind of like speaking, this is just what I'm feeling, this is what I felt at the time, and now I'm feeling this now, and it re-emphasizes the fluidity of these emotions too, and they don't. stay and then when you do that when you voice it then it's like now the angers move through and now i just don't feel angry anymore and i don't feel that it's just like you move through the emotion and then you find now now i'm experiencing a new emotion Yeah, beautifully said. Yeah, definitely. It's so nice to chat. We got to just hit the record button if we're ever going to. not more than five minutes at a time on Marco Polo. I've always thought that maybe there's a way to stitch together Marco Polos and just stuff like that because those are always a lot of gems. So I hope you have a lovely Sunday and thanks for, and by the way, I'll put all that in your show notes. So your website, the TikTok, all of it. So, okay. All right. Much love. All right. You too. Bye.