Drenched in Beer, Diet Coke, and Love (#214)

Doug kicks things off with a story about finally using his Real Salt Lake season tickets and having what he calls the “time of his life.” A mid-season match against Club América turns into something more than just a game—it’s a full-body experience, complete with mariachi bands, yellow smoke, and a feeling of being transported. We talk about what it means to ride the wave of communal energy and how aliveness can show up in unexpected places.

That leads into a deeper conversation around boundaries and family, especially when it comes to missions, temple culture, and the pressure to “support” things that no longer align with us. We reflect on our own mission experiences, the lasting nervous system impact, and the complicated emotions that come with watching the next generation step into systems we’ve worked hard to leave.

We also touch on:

• The difference between real joy and performative belonging
• Why curiosity matters more than certainty
• How hard it can be to draw lines without feeling like you're abandoning people
• Some music updates—we’re almost done with Austin Nights and Holy Smokes is close behind

Transcript

0:48

Yeah. I guess I could get into the zone where I was the other night, you know, telling you about the soccer game. That was a good old time. soccer games that I mean, I think you did talk about getting real tickets uh a while back. And this is the first time you've gone to a game, It was. And in fact, it's been, I think, two or three months, right? Because I bought those tickets back in maybe, well, shit, maybe April I bought those tickets. So May, June, July. have you missed? I mean, probably seven, maybe six games I've missed. But I've given the tickets away every time. So they've been used. It's just like it hasn't, you know, it's been kind of like one of those coincidentally busy kind of summers, I guess. But I did finally go down to a game. Oh, this would be fun to talk about because I had the time of my. Honestly, just like I said, like on the podcast when we were talking about me getting those tickets. It came true. I had the time of my fucking life. Mike, it was like, I called you afterwards and you thought maybe I was like on something. I was not on anything. I was on life. I was high on football fever, you know? though it showed me that you know that you know the phrase high on life can really it's a deal. Yeah, it's real. So maybe I can just tell the story about it. It's kind of fun. too, please, yeah. oh So it wasn't even like a regular league game. It's actually part of this mid-season tournament they're doing with some of the clubs out of Mexico. And so the game itself was against, the match itself was against a team out of Mexico City called Club America. And so their colors are bright yellow, right? I pull up to the stadium. I'm trying to find parking. Sea of yellow, like every, like everybody there is just like in this yellow club America outfit and Mexico city. Yeah. And so I'm like, what in the heck is going on here? So I like, there's vendors like never before have I seen like there's vendors lining the sidewalks. When I'm talking about vendors, I'm talking about like team merchandise for the Mexico city team. Little taco stands, bacon wrapped hot dog stands, scarves, capes, fucking headbands, like anything you can buy, like jerseys. And I'm like, wow. And people everywhere. The traffic is at a standstill. I go find a parking spot. And I head in. And it's just packed to the brim. I turn to my buddy, I'm like, how many people does this stadium hold? And he goes, I've never seen it this packed, but I think the stadium itself holds something like 20,000 people. Well, sure enough, they make the announcement that there's 19,500 and something 578 or something like it. People in attendance. I'm like, yeah, sure enough. There are, there are a ton of people here and there are lots of real fans. see lots of like, like the, the crimson and blue and the Royal colors. But mostly it's people that are cheered for Mexico City. And of the 19,000 people that are there, I don't know if I'm exaggerating here, but I think I'm about close. It's like 15, maybe 16,000 of them are Hispanic. Like literally Mexicans rooting for Mexico City, you know? Yeah, we're joking. Did the ice just plan outside with their trucks and. Like I was looking around like, is this one of these ice type of events? Like, but, honestly, some of that might be overblown, like, because it really was like the atmosphere, the sounds, the people, like I felt like I was in a different country in the best way possible. felt like I was in a different country. You know what I mean? Like I transformed myself. I drove down to Salt Lake city and I transformed into like, I'm now in Mexico city. Like it was so beautiful. It's so perfect. And There are some things that are going on that I really can't explain. For instance, like the match starts and obviously the Mexico city team has all sorts of songs that they're singing. But also like we talked about in in in the episode where I told you about getting tickets, Rihal has a couple of songs that they're singing. I don't know the song. So I'm just like, I guess it's low level, low levels of like racism. I'm just singing along best I can like to both teams, by the way, I should clarify. I should clarify that I'm singing to both teams songs, because I just wrapped up in how amazing this environment is. I'm just like riding the waves of the energies. You know what I mean? uh-huh. And the yellow team, the Mexico City team brought a mariachi band, question mark? Like, I don't know, they were near me. they bring a mariachi band or was the mariachi band just like the fans? Well, I think it was just, no, I don't think it was like any, any, any official capacity. I think it just was somebody snuck in enough musical instruments to make up a mariachi band. And so when the action would swell, it was a really, it was a really intense game. And when the action would start to swell on one side, you know, as, they're, they're, they're, they're bringing the ball forward and everybody's kind of lining up for their little positions. And there's about to be a cross ball that is going to, everybody's going to like dive for with like headers or, kicks to get a goal. The music would swell and you'd hear the mariachi band start to like play and they start singing. I'm like, where the hell is this mariachi band? And I was surrounded everywhere. My tickets are amazing, by the way. My tickets, my seats are amazing. Like we have to go to a game. I have such good. And they weren't that expensive, right? Dude, I would fly out just to go to a game. Yeah, dude, I'm not kidding. for what I paid for my season tickets, it was worth it just going to this one match. And I'm not exaggerating that. Like I did not pay very much for these tickets, which man, while they're affordable season tickets to a professional sports team, it's a no brainer for me. It's a no brainer, right? So anyway, the crowd is just triumphant. They're just cheering and chanting and singing. And every once in a while, these guys in yellow jerseys would turn to me and they would kind of look at me and like raise their eyebrows and smile. And so I'd high five them because I don't know what the hell's going on. I understand the basics of sports, but I don't really know what's the most beautiful pass and stuff like that. Also, side note, like. Down the row, maybe eight or 10 people from me, there was this badass looking dude who he was like a big muscular uh Mexican guy and he had dreadlocks, like thick, heavy dreadlocks. And he was wearing a Raiden from Mortal Kombat hat, like one of those like Chinese. He looked like a dragon slayer. Like he looked like the coolest guy ever. And every little while he would look at me. and get into like this fun squat where he would do double, like one arm bent raised above his head, one arm straight out in front of him, finger guns at me and like nod. And I was like, I don't know how me and this guy are besties, but I would, so I would wave back to him and do like my own little hand symbols. And we were like kind of riding each other's wave. Like I felt like going to, going to a soccer game is like going to a concert, like an outdoor concert where you're like, wow, I'm, I'm, there's something going on on the stage or on the field or on the pitch or whatever. There's definitely things going on. But also out here in the crowd, I'm just writing other people's energies and we're like swelling, like we're breathing together basically, right? huh. I mean, those fans went hard, dude. At one point they set off like a, guess, I guess it was a smoke bomb that had yellow smoke waft through the, the entire stadium, you know? It's like, Hey, please don't set off any more of those smoke bombs in the stadium. People's eyes were watering. then, and that's sorry if I keep, is it cool if I just keep telling this story? this is please. But then like the amount of the allotted time, know, soccer games are 90 minutes. The allotted time comes and goes and Rial is up two to one. And the announcer is like, okay, the referees have tacked on seven minutes of additional time to make up for like, you know, time when the injury time and whatever. And so there's seven minutes and match can end at 97 minutes. And sure enough in that 97th minute. The Mexico City team is like, okay, well, we score a goal. Panamonium. Like they score a goal and the whole stadium erupts. And people are throwing their beers and their ice waters and their Diet Cokes onto the pitch, onto the field. I'm now drenched in four layers of God knows what kind of liquid. I got beer on me. I got Diet Coke on me. I've got... uh for sure, while driving. And I don't even care because I'm having a time in my life. It's 2-2 tie. Time expires. But then the announcer comes over to the PA and he's like, OK, well, because of the way that they're doing this little tournament, we're going to finish it with penalty kicks. Each team gets five penalty kicks. And it just so happens to be down on my end. So it's like I've got the most perfect view of these penalty kicks. Yeah. And so you live and die. Like, I'm not kidding you. The whole stadium holds their breath and you live and die with each one of those penalty kicks. And Real ends up winning it. Rail one. Yeah. So were you trained for real or? I was cheering for Real, of course. I'm a huge Real fan. Like I'm a big old Real Salt Lake fan. Huge. I go to all their games. Yeah. But I was cheering. It's funny you said it because I was cheering. Anytime anything good happened, I was cheering, whether it didn't matter what team it was. And every time something almost good but heartbreaking happened, I was groaning and moaning and devastated with the rest of the fans. I was having the experience of just loving the game that was happening. and loving the emotional experience that everybody was having as the game progressed. It was such a fun time, Mike. I want to always go to those games. I'm hooked, man. To be honest with I'm hooked. And then the parking lot is like, it's pandemonium out in the parking lot out there when it's over. And so I'm not getting any, I'm not going anywhere. Like some people literally started having like, I don't think it was a full blown quinceanera, but it was a, it was a f****g fiesta for sure going on in that parking lot. And I was just like, all right, well. I'm not getting out here anytime soon. guess I'll just kind of like bop to the music. See what's up. Dude, the Hispanic people are just my favorite people. And I, I don't know how Americans got so tight ass. It's just, you know, I mean, I always thought like, you know, I've been to a lot of American sporting events and some big ones, some big ones that got pretty crazy. mean, we talk about even going to like, you know, Utah state basketball games or, um, you know, jazz games get pretty intense here and there. I've been to some NFL games that have gotten pretty intense, but like, Nothing like that. that wasn't even like a, that wasn't even like, you know, a world cup or championship of something, you know, like, I mean, it sounds like a it was a mid season, mid week, almost like, almost like, not quite scrimmage. Like it mattered. And it's part of this little, you know, grouping tournament that they're doing. But yeah, exactly. Go ahead. No, because I was thinking, I was chatting with someone recently and so one of my nephews just had his mission. Farewell. um And I didn't tune in for it. mean, if we were in Utah, maybe I would have gone, but like here in California and I don't know. It's this weird thing that I don't want to be like that. um You know how like if someone was like. Maybe there was a gay marriage happening in the family and you know, some family members like, I'm not going to go support that. You know, I don't want to be like the reverse of that, but the same time I'm like, you know, I'm like, I'm not going to support my nephews going on their mission. But sometimes I'm just like, I can't fucking support this shit. Like we've, we've talked about how, um, psychologically. damaging that experience was it for my nervous system. I've been listening to, in fact, I'm doing a few episodes with Glenn again from Infants on Thrones. He wrote a book that he's releasing as a free audio book and it's really good. It's called, You're Not Broken, You're Just Rewiring. And it just kind of talks about like how our nervous, just the nervous system, but like. I was thinking about how much my nervous system was just wound up for two years. And I think I'm still like unwinding from it. um But I bring that up because I was talking to someone about it. Cause I was talking to someone here and just being like, look, I feel bad not supporting my nephew. But at the same time I'm like, especially now that they're leaving when they're 18, I'm like, this is just, it's abuse. um And I'm not gonna support it. um But then I was like, even with that, I don't. I don't regret my mission. Yeah, I know, right? Like I wouldn't go, like if I went back, I would do it differently. But since I'm not going back, like going to Brazil and the biggest thing was just being with the Brazilian people. And, know, I was in some very poor areas, but in those areas, they were so full of life. So they have little, but are so full of life. And then you come back, you know, in Davis County, Utah, and people have plenty and have sticks up their ass all the time. Hahaha! Me included, I'm including me in that. um But there's something about, uh you know, they're just full of life. uh Yeah, you know, there's a thing I'm going to just take a quick tangent to maybe we can examine this and you can we can sort of see where we both land on it. Because you mentioned a thing that like I still I really struggle with, which is like supporting versus ah just sort of like quietly letting people know that that's not a thing that you are. willing to participate in, right? So I guess where do you draw the line? Because I guess what I'm thinking about is really any sort of church structure, any sort of religion with its tenets and rules by which people are governed sort of like helps people set like these baked in boundaries, right? And then. As you, as you leave, what, you know, we talk about this all the time, but it's like one of those things, it's like an identity crisis and you have to figure out who you are and what you believe in and what your value system is. Like it's like starting over from scratch. Uh, and you also have to learn like things that you don't even think about when you leave a religion. Like you have to learn how to set your own boundaries. You have to learn how, what you're going to say yes to and what you're going to say no to and why. Do you know what I mean? Like you, just said it. It's so, it's so like deeply embedded into our. personality and our like our neuro pathways and our DNA, it's so baked in that we want to be supportive and be like, yeah, I'm here to support family and I'm cheering you on to on your mission farewell or your wedding or whatever it is. But also that that same courtesy would not be uh extended in the other Like the other way. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I can't imagine going to a bunch of my family members or my friends who are devout LDS members of the church and saying, hey, listen, I'm moving up the ranks in this Hindu sort of like tradition that I've been running around with for the last five or six years. And I'd love for you to come. do a ceremony with me and I'd love for you to come do all this stuff. It means so much to me. mean, it's like everything to me and I'd love for you to come join me. I think that they would have a natural like boundary set for them by the church. I mean, it's easy to look for it and stuff like alcohol and coffee ritual, just that kind of stuff. But even broader, it's like by definition, Mormonism does not quite understand the concept of respecting other people's beliefs because they send people out to go door to door to tell people that their beliefs are wrong. It's in the very nature of it. It's in the very nature and it's just this natural, expected, it's not even considered. When you send kids to invite other kids to activities or you send missionaries out to try to convert people or you send home teachers out to check in on people or you send them, it's baked in that the default setting is we're right, we know we're right. We know you're wrong and we sort of suspect that you kind of think you're wrong too. And it's like that, that assumption is such a weird assumption, right? Well and then, um... And how can they like you be open-minded when that's, you know, baked in there. um And just thinking of, uh so to kind of add to your, the analogy you were, your comparison you were drawing. If I were to do one that was like equal to how I view the mission experience now, especially that they're going at 18, where it's like, they don't even get a chance to. Leave home sometimes. mean, if back when we were going on missions, if you turn 19, like right out of high school, you would go immediately. But then like I had to do a whole year before I went and there was a lot of growth in that one year from 18 to 19. You grow a lot, especially, you know, I was up at college for a year, like living out, living out of home. like a lot of maturity happens, you know, in those young years, just in just a year. And now it's like. so escalated as far as, you know, everyone there, it's a, it's a huge party whenever someone opens their mission call. And like, you know, I see these videos and 50, 60 people are there and all their friends are there. And then they're all getting pictures of, with their flags out by the temple with their friends. And it's this thing that like, it, it, makes it so hard to say no to you get caught up in this wave. And so I was thinking of an equivalent, um, Yeah. something, but I just didn't. And I was thinking of the equivalent would be like, if one of uh my sons were to not just be like, Hey, they're doing this like Hindu temple or something. It would be like, by the way, they're going to this, uh, cult in Northern California for two years. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, exactly. And this cult is, they do good things. know, they, they, sell, uh you know, organically grown fruits and vegetables at the farmer's market in order to pay their lifestyle. But it's it's a two year little commune where they share everything and, and pool their resources. And, you know, they do, they do yoga every morning. They, they welcome visitors to join them. Like a lot of this stuff sounds like a Mormon mission. Like, you know, every, every missionary pays the same amount. The church has figured out the way that it's like, okay, just pay into the mission fund and high cost of living areas, low cost of living areas, it'll all kind of like, you know, even out. So that's it. By the way, there's another term for that, you know, like that communal living. uh But it, but, but it certainly is understanding that we're, regardless of who makes what and who makes more and who needs more and who needs less, where everyone's just getting enough sufficient for their needs basically. Right. As missionaries and missionaries live, they don't live extravagantly. They live pretty poorly, which is, think, which I think is pretty cool. Like you live like the people that you're trying to reach the people that you're serving. But also all of the things about a mission are very cult like minimal access to family. mean, know nowadays they can, you know, they, they, call home once a week and they, they, they've got email and there's texting and. And parents can get really involved in the mission type of thing, but that's just pretty recent and that's just due to changes in technology. It used to be that you could have two phone calls a year, one on Mother's Day, one on Christmas Day. And a lot of times the missions themselves would regulate that. Like ours was 20 minute phone call, no more than that. A 20 minute phone call, twice a year, to family. If that doesn't sound like a fucking cult, what is? What is? Well, and I got, I had to keep erasing my texts. So I was talking to a family member and they were like, yeah, I'm glad, you know, it's, we at least get to talk to him every week now. And I wrote three texts and erased all of them because it was, it was so snide and snarky, but I was like, finally I just settled on, know, I'm really glad they changed that. It beats having a 10 minute conversation because I, my mission president was like, he was a fucking asshole, but like he, um, the, last, my last Christmas, I think I've talked about this, but I'll just repeat it. Like he was like, you're, we're spending too much time on these phone calls home. We're limiting it to 10 minutes a person. Dude, I've got six siblings. It's so they put me on fucking speakerphone. And of course I'm, I'm like, like. Hyper-focused on obeying all the rules because I, if not, I'm going to feel guilty as fuck and need to confess and whatever. Um, but I think, I think we actually went 15 to 20 minutes because, know, then my grandma's chiming in and everyone, they just all called on speaker. And it was one of the worst, was one of the hardest days of my life. And I was glad it was my second Christmas and not my first Christmas. And I was like, okay, I've got six months. I'll just fucking do it. But like, I'll repent and hopefully hopefully the Lord and my mission president will forgive me for going five minutes over his allotted ten minutes to call my mother and entire family on Christmas Day Hopefully the Lord will forgive me enough that I can toil out my last six months of my mission and be worthy of God's love. Like that's what's going on in that shit, dude. That is what's going on. Well, and what really, guess was, it was bringing up a lot, I guess it was bringing up a lot for me. I'm bringing it up the separate today, but, cause you know, we did, I mean, it was years ago. We did that episode where I, um, kind of, I read some of the letters that I wrote home on my mission. it's one of our best episodes actually, an early one. And it was, um, and, uh, I told you that my mom, my parents listened to that episode and I got some, my mom said everything that I've ever wanted her to say, just like, wish I would have flown down and picked up. wish I would have known. I'm so sorry. Um, and, know, I was able to tell her like, look, even if you at the time would have been like, Hey, we're coming to get you. would have obviously said, no, I wouldn't have let you. Um, but, um, but I'm like, mom, means a lot that you would say that. The reason why bring that up and why I get frustrated is because, but I, you know, I guess they're always going to see that the problem is not the church because I wasn't the only person in my family who had a hard time on the mission. Almost every, everyone did. And I would just love for my parents. I love the sentiment that, we would come get you because you were having such a hard time. But just like that next thing, like, but mom, the problem was, wasn't me. The problem wasn't. The problem wasn't my brothers who also struggled on their mission. Um, we weren't the problem. The problem is this institution. And then now it's happening with your grandchildren and you're not doing what you said you would do. Now they're seemingly happy and going on their full quote unquote free will that they've chosen this. You know, but like, wait till they, mean, they're, they're, they're going to go out there. They're going to hide it. If they're having a hard time, maybe they'll speak up about it. Um, I don't know, but it's just kind of, it's felt like, okay, no, but you're now it's, perpetuating and you're still supporting it. You're still congratulating them. You're still, you're still thinking the problem is the people, not the institution. It's so funny. I think that you're talking about something like that. I think about this concept quite a lot, which is that complete and utter dedication to it, I think, gets forgotten or maybe even taken for granted. kind of tabs on some of these, um, you know, post Mormon or ex Mormon creators, you know, mean, uh, Kara's out there, you know, Tanner, Samantha, John Delin, self, uh, you know, Stephanie's out there. said nuance. Oh, go ahead. What sorry, did you see Tanner's music video he just released? Dude, I'll have to send it to you. It's fucking dope, man. It's fucking dope. Anyway, I didn't want to sidetrack that. just, he said Tanner and I just had to. I'll send it to you, if he released this on all their things probably, right? I'll just go check it out. good. He just so so Tanner and so so good. Yeah. freaking talented. Anyway, the, what I've noticed, Kelly, um, uh, yeah, all these folks, the, the, the, old guard, the new guard, whatever. And they're always kind of responding because there's always this, uh, underlying accusation. That's like, was like a, that's like a Mormon favorite, which is you can leave the church, but you can't leave the church alone. Right. And anytime somebody makes that, that statement, I feel bad for that person and not, not in a way of like, okay, Doug, they don't need your fucking pity. And you know, they don't need your sympathy. I, I, get it. I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to feel sorry for somebody. I just feel bad for the lack of self-awareness that that person has because that, that concept you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone is a, uh, the other side of the same coin that you're talking about with like, people recognizing like, I'm hearing the pain that you feel like you went through and I'm trying to understand the experience you had and I'm going to try to do better and then not doing better because the default setting is the church is right and you're wrong, you know? And so. And so the thing that really, I guess, breaks my heart when people say, oh, you can leave the church, but you can't leave it alone. The lack of introspection and self-awareness that it takes to make that kind of a comment is pretty, that person's feeling pretty repressed about their spirituality. That person is feeling, you know, it's that thing of like, It's in the same vein of like, well, if I was an atheist, by golly, I'd go out and do all the raping and murdering I could possibly do. It's like, what are you talking about? You're still a human being. Even when you leave the church, you are still a human being who wants to have a joyful and fulfilling life and recognizes that the paths to doing that are often in community building and it's in kindness and it's in training others with respect and dignity and it's sort of like self-regulation and leaving a high demand religion that you were born and raised with and you dedicated your life to. It is not just like this cut and dried, okay, I'm leaving it and now I can leave it alone. Like that's like, it's honestly like going to someone who, again, I'm not making a comparison here. I'm not doing, this is one is good and one is equally or one is God-awful and the other ones equally God-awful. I'm just making a comparison here. It's like we're blaming survivors of abuse It's victim blame. It's like oh, it's it's you you you were in uh You were in an abusive relationship How come you can't just leave that abusive partner and leave them alone and never talk about well Jesus Christ because they're part of my life for God's sake You know what I mean? You're still talking about the abusive partner you were married to for 34 years? Get over it. Get over it already. You guys are still talking about the Epstein files. Get over it already. I it's just all the same. It's all the same shit, bro. Like it's all the same. Like it really is people who have insulated themselves from feeling the obligation of experiencing empathy because they get enough empathy points for be through the, through the rituals and ceremonies. They. do through their religion. They've already purchased their sins. They don't have to focus on doing anything else because they already go through the motions of taking the sacrament and doing their home teaching and teaching their lesson and fulfilling their calling. Because they do those things, paying their tithing, paying their fast offerings, they don't have to extend that sense of empathy out to the rest of the world because they already got it covered through the church. It's the person who says, I don't give money to bums. because the church already has a program to give money to Bums. I don't donate to charity because the church is my path by which I donate to charity. I don't have to give to, you know, uh my cause of choice. I don't have to give money to those things because the church is already taking care of it. It's like you cannot assuage your, you cannot. uh You cannot just be like, oh, I am under no responsibility to be a decent human being because by virtue of just solely by virtue of being a member of a church, I check that box. Like I am the decent human being that I want to be just because I say to people, I'm a blank. I'm a Mormon. I'm a Lutheran. I'm a Catholic. I'm a Jew. Like it's not that life is more than just space without works is dead motherfuckers. Um, you know, it reminds me of speaking to my mission president. He would actually say that said he would, he would say that to bums to their face. He's like, Oh no, I, I, I won't. And by the way, don't know it's, but whatever, homeless, whatever, like people begging, you know, he, he would be like, um, that there's words for hobos? Is that what you're saying? Mike. guess I bad calling him a bum. The hobo, the hobo Alliance, the international Alliance for bums is not out there having meetings being like, all right, first and foremost, we got to cancel more mizun mushrooms because they call this bums instead of uh rail riders or hobos or whatever they want to be. People know what we mean when we say bums. Anyway, he would be like, oh, I tell them, granted, look, most of these guys don't even know what the word fast offering is. He's like, I pay my fast offerings. uh The bum is like, fast offerings? What are you talking about? How about a faster offering, which would be to hand me a dollar right here and now, cut out the middle man. That's a faster offering. right? Just give me a couple bucks from your pocket. I mean, that's really quick, but he like. they're they're meant to assume that he means I've Fasted gone without food and water for a period of time in order to invoke the Lord's blessings upon me and during that time I've given the church the amount of money that it would have cost me to make a couple of meals and therefore you mr. Bobo on the corner you're you're Therefore I've taken care of you and the guy's like no I could I just have a dollar Yeah, I'm gonna probably get tacos and booze with it. So what? Anyway, sorry, I derailed you. then instead of being very generous with all this money that they've been given from the members who, you know, starve themselves for a period of time and donate the money, the church is very withholding sometimes. I mean, I know they do some good things with the fast offering money, but a lot of times it's used as almost a weapon to be like, yeah, we'll pay your electric bill, but make sure you're also paying your tithing and coming to church. It's usually, it's usually coming with some sort of stipulation that you're, you're trying to, you know, you the Bishop that you're making those strides, okay, yes. Now I will pay your, you know, give you the desert, like food stamps or whatever. And like, Isn't there also like, I know this is like a, a byproduct of prosperity, uh, gospel of prosperity doctrine, like, isn't there also like a low key. Sort of like. Accusation that like the, the hobos that are begging for money that they're like. They're kind of like trying to skip steps. I'm not giving them money because they're skipping steps. Like work hard, a day job and then maybe you'll have some money. Like until then I'm not giving you any of my money because if I did, then that would make, that would put you in a better place than me. Cause you've figured out a loophole and you've, you've skipped steps. Like it's like, dude, are you trying to say that you're, you're jealous of that homeless person and you don't, and your jealousy turns into some sort of like. superiority complex and schadenfreude where you're like, as long as nobody's giving them money, that's fine by me because those bums are just being a lot of bums. But if somebody gives them money, they're just skipping ahead? oh Why do I have to go do my job? Why do I have to go to my working job and toil and labor for my money? Because they're considering the lilies of the field and how they grow and how they can just receive and not have to work. uh Oh, are you saying that the hobos are like living a more like down to earth Christ-like existence than you? that what, are you feeling guilty? Is it guilt that is, I won't give money to bums because the Lord promised to give the money to the bums. Is that what it is? Um, so one of the things I was thinking about with, with the whole, and it's just kind of like wrapped up the mission thing that I've been like wrestling with, you know, I, because I've been through it and I see where my, you know, I talk about like being kind of angry at my mom, um, you know, for continuing to support it, but I, know, I, I know, I know how scary it is when you, uh, start questioning, maybe the church is the problem. And I know it takes. It takes some sort of inner switch to flip. Um, mind didn't flip until I was 32 years old and putting that till then, I was just trying to like, make all the puzzle pieces work. And then finally there was a switch in me that was like, well maybe the puzzle doesn't fit. And I was like, Oh, you know, and I know that that is a scary thought. Um, and so can I just have empathy for that? And can I just support them? You know, I could have taken the higher road maybe and just supported my nephew realize. I mean, he's, he's in it, but I can at least support his life, even though, you know, I had it. So it's, don't know. It's hard. Well, I think that's what this whole, geez, we've kind of gone off the rails, but like, I think this is this whole conversation is about. It's like, where do you... Is there a line, even the idea of us trying to come up with the concept of there being like a line where he's like, okay, if this, then I no longer can, like, I, like, I have to like draw a line there and be like, I can't support this. But when we're trying to identify what the, what the this in that, in that sentence is, right. But by just by trying to define it, we're aware of it. We're aware that that's a, an odd experience in life. Like it's an odd transaction that. one side of the transaction is not even aware of how little they are willing to bring to that relationship that you have with them. and it's just hard, right? I don't know. Does it stop at weddings and mission farewells and homecomings? Or is it like, I'm just here to support family and if I can do it, I can do it. Like, where? Where do we draw the line of like, Hey, I think that we're messing these kids up for the rest of their lives because I'm a kid who was messed up for the rest of my life. And frankly, I don't like using that terminology either because I don't think I'm messed up currently, but I certainly still feel the effects of the, of the conditioning that I faced in that system of beliefs. Right? Is that fair enough to say? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, I think you're summing it up or describing it well, because it's this thing of like, okay. I, I, there's a part of me that does just want to take the higher road and realize, okay, I can see what this is, but I can still be loving and supporting for whatever path they choose. then there's another part of me that's like, you know, similar to, uh, there was that whole movement a while ago to try to get bishops to stop interviewing children. And by the way, the church did change its policy. think it's still a stupid policy that now they can have their parents with them too. But it's at least they, they changed. Uh, was Sam Young, uh, the church changed its policies based on people speaking out about it. Based on pressures from a non-God's-revelation uh standpoint, the church changed policies. There's an important distinction right there, I think. Anyway, sorry, keep going. And I similarly, I kind of feel like. missions, especially how it's designed now, where they're caught up in the high school wave to go. They're going through the temple again. No one fucking knows what they're going to be doing. And we talked about in that Adam, the episode we did with your brother, Adam, no one knows what you're getting in for when you go and make eternal covenants in the temple. You're still not, it's still cult like abusive behavior. And I don't have to support that no matter what package it comes in. And so it's like, you know. Yeah, it's funny. As you were just talking about that, I had sort of like a thought that I haven't, maybe I haven't had this thought before. um Like the stark contrast between what you were raised with and that two hours that you go through the temple, like the before and after of the temple is jarring. Wouldn't you say for most people that's a pretty accurate description? Yeah, I mean that's it. you're raised on give said the little scrim stream. And that's like fine and dandy. And I hope they call me on a mission and we are as the armies of Helaman. And then you go through the temple and it's, God, hear the words of my mouth and secret new names and secret new handshakes and women committing to obey their husbands and husbands committing to obey God and, and a retelling of the garden of Eden story. Like that is jarring. That is a, I went to the temple and after I went to the temple, of like watershed moment in a person's life. And we didn't even have to do the penalties. We didn't have to like slit our bowels and our throats and whatever. Yeah. was softened for us and it's even been more softened since us, you know. Having said that, that would be, I would be able to, this is such a crazy thing to say, but if there were more steps or tiers like that, as you kind of like, like, as you kind of like progressed through the church, I would at least be like, okay, so this is just how the church does like, It can be a little jarring at first, and then you sort of like learn the lessons and you kind of, you're kind of now being taught those higher law lessons. And once you get to another point in the church, you, you graduate to another thing. And I think I know people out there thinking like, like screaming in their heads, like, well, what about the second anointing? And what about, like, I get it that there are little things that the church does, but not, but not conveyor belt, um, mass production type of things that they do right now, which is. primary uh mission prep, know, temple prep, basically getting married to go on a mission or get married and you go through the temple and there's like, boom, you're either before or after going to the temple. There should be another thing like, now you've got another 12 years and now you go through and learn more things about like the cult that is Mormonism. And you learn more higher blessings. You do more fucking chef's hats and. reaching for the sky. But that doesn't happen. There's just the two things. There's just the before and after. And it's so jarring that it should be indicative to most that the church is just doing this to try to control people. They're not doing it to try to like move people up and progress, you know, line upon line, precept upon precept, give them, you know, milk before meat and all that shit. Like the church is not coming up with new and extended revelations to how man can become even more like God or closer to God. The church is just doing this like, here's the thing that we do. And then now we're going to get revelation about, people are kind of annoyed about the bishops interviews, so we can make a couple of tweaks. Oh, people didn't like our gay parents policy and being able to join it. So we made a few tweaks to it. people didn't like our length of church and felt like they're in a fast paced world with cell phones that we're going to shorten church. Those are the fucking revelations that are coming through. Like that's the shit. All this shit that came through with Joseph Smith. And now the big ones are like, you can cut a little bit more fabric on your sleeves of your garments so you can get a little bit more sunshine on your shoulders. Like that's the big revelation now. Bullshit. Obviously your leaders are not talking with God because in a time that is so diverse and divided and political and there's misinformation and mistruths and fake news in a time when we need God's direction. God is directing where the hem on our underwear should be. Come on, God, you're bad at being God. Like you're really, really super bad at being God when we need you most and you're going radio silence on anything that matters other than can I wear this with my fucking Lululemon top? Like that's that God is bowing down to corporations and the type of fashion that they're creating for men and women. Bullshit. Well, and it's bullshit that that happens when you have a gun, a metaphorical gun to your head in a way, because you go through the temple right before your mission, or you go to the temple right before you about to get married. So not only now that you've made these covenants and went through this whole experience that you had no idea what you were going to do. Now it's like, well, even if you left there being like, what the fuck? It's like, well, I go in the MTC in two weeks. I've got, I've sent everyone out my card with me, draped in the Brazilian flag. The person who I want to spend eternity with and and side note the person I want to have sex with currently I'm getting married to them and in order to do the things that I want to do in order to in order to like satisfy this particular boner, I have to fake like the temple's cool. I have to fake like, look, we could do a whole podcast about things people will do when horny. Like people will, people will do pretty crazy things when they're horny, including go through the temple and get married for eternity. haha Just to fucking nut. Just to make their pussy wet. It's like, Jesus Christ. Can't there be little simpler ways to satiate and satisfy our warm dog side? So, you know, but am I just the same as like, you know, uh, uncle and aunt, uh, in my family who, one of my kids were getting gay married would be like, I can't support, I can't go and support this because I can't be, you know, Even the fact that we're giving them that as an out is troublesome. It's troubling, It is, but I, you know, I guess this is where maybe I'm just self reflecting too much on this decision to not, uh, attend my nephew's farewell nephews. were two nephews that just recently had their farewells, but I but I guess we're agreeing. I'm you not attending, you not going to great lengths to attend that and comparing it to someone who's just being bigoted, being like, I'm not going to celebrate someone's marriage to the person they love. Like even though, even the fact that you're equating those two things is speaking to... just how fucking deep the claws of the church are dug into you. Those are two different things and not comparable. And you're feeling guilty about doing the one and giving the person who would do the other an out because it goes against their belief system. You're disregarding, exactly. You know, it's kind of like the whole thing about like, oh, wait, um you're bigoted for calling me a bigot. You know, kind of, you it's like, no, you're clear. Like, don't I'm just telling you, don't be a bigot, man. m happened to free speech? Well, you have free speech, but you're being literally bigoted towards gay people. I get to hear by judge you about it, you know? But this is where, you know, I do think if we just had more of these sporting events where we could dress in yellow. I love that you're always taking it back to the, well, what if we all dress in yellow and cheer for Mexico City? ah Let's go, Mexico City! like, you know, maybe even this conversation doesn't need to be had if we just had more moments where we just like dance it out and to smoke bombs and yell it and this get crazy and allow ourselves just to fucking live. like, you know, we don't have overanalyze anything, just get fucking live your life and dance and fuck and throw firecrackers and eat bacon wrap hotdogs and have the time of your life. If, yeah, dude, if, if, the expectations were for baptism included the right combination of Coke zero and some sort of like pale ale beer and water combining in like at their apex in midair and then sort of like splattering on me as people celebrate like the most orgasmic goal of their entire like existence. then you're goddamn right I'm getting baptized, baby. Like, let's go, let's get baptized then if that's what the process is. But if baptism is this whole thing of like, some stevy little horn dog needs to dunk me underwater and then for the rest of my life I have to be like, well, that's as perfect as I'll ever be and it's downhill from here and every move I make needs to be scrutinized internally about like, was that a God-like move? Am I being more Christ-like by? making that move or am I being like kind of like a easy little dirty, dirty little boy? Oh, I in the shower, I, I soaked my taint and butthole a little bit too long. I, am I gay now? Like if, like does everything have like it leaving the soccer game covered in beer and water. I'm like, good. can, I can, I can go clean my body off and I really love soccer now, but I owe nothing to soccer. I owe literally nothing more to soccer because the event itself satisfied my devotion to soccer. religion requires you to dedicate yourself to someone and something that I promise you you have never met. Like I promise you that choosing your belief system and faith over kindness to real people in your life, I can promise you that you are choosing something fake over something real every single time that you do. Well, look at it in just the, um know, I also promised you that the crusty old men who are, you know, 90 years old and claim to be special witnesses with a little wink because they know what you're going to deduce from that uh also have not seen what they're claiming to have seen. Right. mean, it's, it's, they're, they're, they're, they're knockoff mediums. They're, they're, they're, they're parlor trick. I mean, they're not even, they're not even all that good at it as far as like being mind readers and tarot readers, because tarot readers and mind readers have a skill and they, they cultivate that skill. But, but bishops and stake presidents and apostles and prophets. They are simply tapping into every human beings baked in insecurities and fears that everyone feels. And they are using that to gain some sort of like bony street cred about their relationship with Jesus Christ. And to me, that shit is that that's, that's the kind of imposter syndrome. that they should be feeling. They should be feeling like charlatans and thieves. That's what they should be feeling like. They should have a never ending um thirst for uh validation and a never ending uh sense that they're kind of doing something wrong because they are intentionally misleading people in order to fulfill or satisfy some weird kink. that is a shot to their ego. And that to me, leaders of the church, I hereby speak ill of thee. Like that kind of bullshit is not you're just meaning well for everybody else. You're creating uh deep-seated insecurities and fears about what happens to our loved ones and our own bodies when we die. And you're shielding people away from facing real emotional... hardships and, and, and learning how to deal with those emotional hardships. God, dude, I'm, I'm a little this morning. and you know what, you know, you're talking about the tarot readers and the mediums channels. You know what? All the best ones of them have in common. They, bring their curiosity. That's what it is. Yeah. And, and they go, I don't know. I don't have the answers. So let's just get curious about this. Let's just, let's get, let's get, know, one of the favorite things that Tracy taught me about dreams. It's like the best thing you can bring to a dream is not your knowledge of symbols or knowledge of whatever it's curiosity. It's being like, Whoa, that's, that's weird. That's interesting. Like let's, let's figure out why let's just get curious. And, and, and like, you always have to have that moment where you're like, well, I don't know what the fuck this dream means. And this like humbling experience where you're like, Okay. Well, I, since I don't know what this dream means, let's just get curious and ask questions and see if the dream reveals itself as we kind of unpack it. Um, and same thing, I think the terror readers, like throughout the cards and like, wow, I don't, I was not expecting the king of swords in this position. So what's why. Yeah, like tap into. What could that, what lessons could be learned from that? It's not a, it's not a, here, and here by I command thee to do the following because the king of fucking swords popped up. Did you say the king of swords or the seven of swords? There is no, there is no king of swords, is it? Well, I guess there is a king of swords. Father of swords, I guess. Yeah, I didn't make that up. Yeah, I don't know. But instead of like having all these answers, you have the answer to every question. Frankly, your answers are shit. Your answers are shit. What does that remind me of? Joseph Smith! Your village is shit! oh village is shit. It gets visited by the angel Moroni who goes, hey Joseph Smith, your village is shit. uh Dude, just look more musical, man. Dude, musicals. think musicals are in our back pocket right now. We got to do a musicals episode. Well, one of my favorite, one of my favorite things ever, Mike, two of my favorite things ever involve musicals in you. One of them being you and me at that fucking Bookamormon musical in San Diego is one of the greatest times of my life. Just high, we were so high. We were so high and drunk, we were crossfaded, man. Remember we were trying to sneak marijuana smoke into our beer during intermission. you did good and I just need a big puff of smoke. And the puff of smoke makes the beard like spill out over onto your face. And then the other great musical memory I have is you and me, much to our wives' frustration and annoyance that night on my deck where you and I just like, hang the entirety of the Les Miserables score. And we just took turns playing roles and parts. And our wives were like, is this really gonna keep going? And we're like, yeah, we know it all. yeah, we're just, still on act one, you guys. And by the way, we just intuitively knew which parts to pick up. oh Ahhhh man. All right. I don't know how we got talking about that. That's, that's, that's a conversation for another day. Probably. Alright, you feel complete? I feel complete. wanted to hear more. I wanted to get steer towards you going into the studio and then maybe talk about like, we're close to releasing a few songs, I think. Like we're getting closer every day, I guess. We are, but man, keep. So yesterday though, goal was just like, we're going to fucking finish Austin nights. But then we get in there and I'm like, you know what Doug had a good suggestion. Cause there were a couple of times when I was like, it was when I'm like, I smile at nothing in the breeze and the breeze. I'm like, instead of me just singing that back, let's get an electric guitar going, brim, brim, brim, know, and Evan's like, okay, yeah, okay. Let's just, let's try it out, you know, So he puts out his electric guitar. does it. I'm like, dude. And then we were like, okay, do we still have the, we, we just decided, Nope, it's better without the voices electric guitar. And he's like, does it need more just electric? I mean, do we just need like an elite guitar part? And I was like, yeah, we do. And so we went to, so, so we keep going on these like, you know, uh, rabbit holes of like, so yesterday was all just adding in the electric guitar part and cleaning up some other areas. So we're not. We're like 95 % there, but if we keep tinkering with it, it's never going to be done. But I think we're, I think we're almost there, but that electric guitar part sounds fucking dope. Does it not? Same. I just came back and danced to it. It's sounding so fucking good. I'm so excited and, uh, I can't wait to see when we do that mix with Holy smokes to how that. Like I still have to do the backup vocals to that one. We're getting there. Yeah. So we're, we're close to listeners, but maybe we didn't have to go too much into detail there because like we're not quite ready to release them, but yeah. I hear you. All right, well, let's just end it there then.