Happy Accidents and Care Bear Hats (#217)

Mike and Doug dive into Mark Twain and Beatles deep cuts, swap stories about their own songwriting, and laugh about Care Bear hats at a Darius Rucker show. The talk drifts into authenticity, slowing down creatively, and Doug’s raw reflections on health, ego, and the fear of being “phony.”

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Transcript

1:44

So it is, it says I still have five hours left and that's on 1.5 speed and I'm halfway done. So if I change it to full or normal speed, I still have like seven and a half hours left. And so the, and yeah, I'm like halfway. So I guess it's like a 15 hour book, 16 hour. I did, I did, we're recording. Yeah, I did. Yeah. It's funny, it's funny because like, you know, that is a weird thing about audio books. Like I try to do a, I try to do two books a month. We've talked about this before, but I try to do two books a month. One I listen to, one I read. But I find that I can, you know, it is obvious. But like I get a little more anxious about like, when's it going to end with the audio book? Because I'm sitting there watching the thing, like how many hours are left and what's the time. But with a book in your hand, you just kind of like, know, instinctively, cause it's in your hand. You're like, Oh, I can, I can see how many pages I have left. don't need to like think about it or fret. This, the, Mark Twain book that I'm still pouring through, it's a 44 hour biography. shit, that's our job. I mean, you've got to be, I guess I'm getting to a point in my life, like that, like the cliches are starting to come true about me where it's like, okay, it's time to do a little bit of more bird watching and be a little bit more aware of, you know, your, your sourdough breads and become a historian of some kind. Like become like a, like an amateur historian. Like I'm becoming like a low key expert because not only am I listening, listening to this goddamn Mark Twain biography, but like when I have free time, I'm like, I'm like researching what other people have said about Mark Twain or I'm kind of like following up on like a thing from the book that I want to get more information for more. need more information about Mark Twain than I've already getting from a 44 hour book. Is that why the Mark Twain lyric was coming through when you were uh mumbling that song to me? Of course it has to be. Like I've been obsessed with Mark Twain lately. Dude, I know more about Mark Twain than I probably know about my son. So I, uh, uh, I have never taken that really deep dive in the Beatles. I've always liked their music, but I've never like, you know, I was never like obsessed with them. Like a lot of people were in high school or. Yeah. more, Adam's even more obsessed with The Beatles. But like this book, is it called John and Paul's? that what it's called? called John and Paul. So it's really good. mean, it's focused mostly on their relationship, um obviously with that name. And uh just talks about the songwriting and how it evolves. each chapter is the name of one of their songs. And so in each chapter, he's also breaking down a song of theirs and kind of talks about how it came to be and just breaks down the song. What's taken me so long also listening to it is I'm driving in the car and then I switched to listen on audible. Then I switched to Spotify to pull up, you know, yeah, like they just talked about Penny Lane. And so I had to go back and listen to Penny Lane and try to hear what he's hearing. You know, sometimes I can hear it. Sometimes I can't, you know, it's funny to hear this guy break down songs because he's like. And then, you know, instead of I forgot what song it was, but like instead of. oh a line where you would expect him to say like heart. says mind. It's like a mind. I wish I remember what song or what lyric, but he's like, it's genius. Everything's just like, I mean, they are geniuses. I gotta give him credit, but it's so funny too. Like, I don't think it's their choices were as conscious as people are giving them credit for too. I think. I mean, you know, when you're like, or maybe I'm just projecting my own songwriting process where, you know, if you allow, or even my writing process, like for, for school or something where I'm like, that was really good. Uh, in hindsight, we kind of read back, like look back on it. But you're like, I wasn't consciously trying to do that. I wasn't trying to like write chiasmus in the book of Mormon or whatever. Yeah. we talk about with how music comes through. like you're tapping it, you're licking your finger and sticking it up into the ether and just tapping you in type of thing, right? So you're not like, yeah. I mean, the worst song, I can hear in my songs the parts where I was like, what would be a clever word play right here? For me, those are my least favorite parts of my songs. but the ones that just kind of organically come out. sometimes that shit, like wordplay, you know, if you've got it in you, like if it's part of like your thing, like that comes more naturally to some people than it does others. So if it comes through naturally, it's like, it can be the favorite part of songs. But when I'm trying to like really fucking smarty pants it up and try to be clever and try to like, this one has a triple meaning, bro. You know, like I've told you before, I've like on the text or whatever been like, Mike, this one, like, it's kind of funny because it's got triple meaning. And then I just look back and I kind of like, give me the hiccough, that was kind of, stop trying so fucking hard. love that about your lyrics. I love that about like, but I, I, yeah. but when it's unnatural, it just seems forced. And so I can understand what you're saying about like, because there's the stuff that comes out of the, know, if he's listening to that recording, gosh, just a little tangent here. That's also a thing that happens, right? Like you listen to the same song over and over again, you start hearing every little detail. You know, like I could right now sing to you like a couple of uh lines from like, uh Roar by Katy Perry. I could probably get through a couple of lines and kind of know the sort of vibe of the song of like, know, empowerment, stuff like that. But I don't, I haven't heard that song enough times to know like the musicality of it and to sort of like listen to the spaces and the pauses and kind of, and even the message, like the words that she's using. I'm just like, I got the eye of the tiger. You know, can sing that shit, you know? And so it's pretty cool the way people. I mean, thank God for people like this guy who wrote the book you're reading right now, right? Cause he's just like, look, I'm super obsessed with the Beatles and I'm going to run you guys through like my favorite songs and how they kind of sort of like tie into their lives and their relationship. And I'm going to listen to the like one time that like somebody plays a triangle in the middle of, you know, the Sergeant peppers or whatever. the perfect timing because it right when the angelic little bing needed to like, you know, and... you have to understand what was going on in like Great Britain in 1967 at this time. It's just like, geez, dude, settle down, okay? And one of the things I love about the Beatles now knowing more about them is they just, they weren't afraid to just say what they felt. And so I would almost love to hear the Beatles commentary on this guy's book, on the songs. like, you know, just kind of like, yeah, you know, I think what I'm kind of feeling is so much of the creative process is a series of happy accidents that just kind of go, oh yeah, yeah, that sounds good. You know, and then that, um, but it's been good. There's tons of footage of the Beatles in the studio. There's tons of live videos. You can go watch videos or documentaries that have been made about the Beatles in the studio. And the most organic times are the most magical times. There's something cool about them all sitting around when Paul's working through Let It Be. And they're like throwing out like lines and kind of figuring out what the, what the words should be and stuff like that. mean, let it be as, as it stands now, let it be some of the best songs that have been written. But when they're in the studio and it's coming through, it's just like, I think he should say the maharati or, know, or whatever. There's the maharaji. It's like, instead of like mother Mary, you should say the maharaji or whatever. It's like, well, no, it's mother Mary because that's how I remember it. And that's how it is in the song. And that's like the greatest song of all time type of thing. You know, so funny or the one that, the one that cracks me up is when they're doing, uh, God, I think both of these polls are from that get back documentary, but when they're singing, when they're doing get back, they're trying to figure out, you know, Jojo was a man from Tucson, Arizona. Like they're just talking back and forth, especially Paul and John. They're just talking back and forth of like, what? Who's Jojo? who, what are we talking about here? Like, let's just try to create some kind of thing. Looking for California grass. Like, should it be grass? Should it be like, they're just like trying to come up with words. But then when they get the thing going and the beats going and they start kind of playing together, they start singing it and the words come in through, you know, and then that's what they put in. It's pretty interesting. That's what I wish I could do more with you, you know, if we like live together, actually, like in the same, you know, we were talking, we, didn't fully talk about our weekend, uh, the last episode, but when we were together, we, have those moments where we start doing that, but we're never like, we're fitting so much into 48 hours. never get to like, like work on songs together. I mean, the last time we really wrote songs together was when we were in the Tetons and we actually had more time to do it. a lot of songwriting. Yeah, we did. It just kind of came out and there was like three or four songs that I love. I mean, we've done that with Eric. Yeah, I I would love to do more of that actually with you and me. You're really good about if we can get sort of like a tune going or a chord progression even, you're very good about hearing different types of melodies and stream of consciousness. Tons of words will come through. I really admire that about you. And I wish that we could do more of that because I think that we could. hone our craft a little bit and really do some songwriting. I'm a little different where I'll just sit there and just sing gibberish and then kind of like whatever the gibberish I'm singing kind of sounds like. have the second or third pass, there's like words that kind of fit into that gibberish. know what I mean? So I'm pretty impressed. And Eric does a really good job too of just like. He just says tons of words talking about like bringing up full moon and flapping at Jack down in the kitchen and you know, dancing around. It's like, what are you talking about? He's just like, there's a million words coming out of his mouth, you know? Anyway, I agree with you. keep going on tangents. I agree with you that it would be fun to be able to do that more often in our lives. No, so I think one, and I think I texted you about this, but like one of my favorite parts about reading this book about John and Paul is not only just like the creative, just learning about their creative process, but also their collaborative process. And even, know, the attention they had and the attention, you know, throughout their relationships and stuff they had together. like, I just see a lot of their dynamic in us, but like not to compare ourselves to, you know, you see. I, hereby compare, Mike and I to the Beatles, uh, and, and, and favorably so frankly. Uh, so now that that's out of the way, I'd love to, that's what, that's what I thought you were trying to say. So I'd love to, now that we've gotten that out of the way, so we don't have to apologize for that, but you, but you really did say like that you, you see a lot of like parallels in the relationship between John Lennon and Paul McCartney. you and me. I'm very curious if you would like expound on that a little bit because I what you told me that uh via text and I was and we just didn't ever yeah. And here's the hard part is like it comes in like those ways that you're listening to it, you know, and then it kind of floods away. It's kind of like this, like you're listening to like, that kind of reminds me of, m but you know, like right now, I mean, with the songs we write, can very much tell usually like what's the Doug song, what's the Mike song. But yeah, they, they both somehow go together. Well, that is a lot like the Beatles actually, because like a Paul McCartney song is very different than a John Lennon song. And frankly, uh a George Harrison song sounds different than both of those ones. And then, know, Ringo's running around talking about octopus's gardens and, you know, I've got a photograph, but Ringo's awesome too. I love the Beatles. they were talking about, I'm sorry. Well, we'll get off the Beatles, but like, there was, well, I just didn't know. Um, but the part I was listening to this morning, they were talking about, strawberry fields and Penny Lane and how they're there A and B side of, and one's like almost diving into the subconscious with strawberry fields and Penny Lane's talking about the nostalgia of childhood. and how they've. Yeah. Like Strawberry Fields is very, like, uh it's like, I can't think of the word that I'm trying to use here, but it's not literal. And yet Penny Lane is like, okay, on the corner, there's Bush, it's like, just like naming and listing things that happened in their childhood, right? Yeah. Yeah. And yet they make the perfect, like, uh I think he was talking about someone was like saying it's the art piece of the century or something. That was two songs together on the, you know, someone out there said it's the art piece of the century. I mean, it's Abbey Road. that the album that they're on? Are those on the... Are those the white album maybe? so it's maybe the... Geez, I don't even know my Beatles albums. Maybe it's the... Those ones are on, I think those are on Sgt. Pepper's. Maybe. I don't know. doesn't matter. Listen, if you're if you're listening, pause and check it out. Check out Abbey Road or not Abbey Road. Sorry. Check out Penny Lane and then flip it over and go to Strawberry Fields forever. But you know, one of the things that I really, to go back to our weekend together, one of my big takeaways that I'm still feeling to this day is this thing of like not rushing anything creatively. You know, as much as we talk about like, I wish we were together and wish we could record the album we're working on quicker. Wish we could like do more live podcasts, which we, you know, like, I don't know. Yeah. be fun to do. Wouldn't it be fun to get together with our people? Yes, I can't believe the last one we did was a year and a half ago. I mean, was, mean, something chill on a Friday night was. Dude, has it been a year and a half? Are we that lame? Yeah, was April or of, I don't know, it's time to do something cool, something cool enough. we promised people that we would do something groovy, is that what it was? Or something funky. Something funky. Or maybe something groovy. but you know what? I think we're still tap. mean, I think we have the moments of the funky, but I don't think we've gotten enough funk yet to do it yet. I mean, I think we could, we could, if we put a date on, did it. We would channel the funk, but. think we have the funk. That's another thing is that we just don't practice with Fox or... We just don't drum. You know what I mean? You and I get together and you'll drum. But you want to get funky, you got to some fucking drummers. Yeah, you gotta get Doc in there, Fox? I just wanna talk, he's Fox, okay. I like Fox. And Fox suits him better, actually. Yeah, I think that's what we called him. Well, maybe I could be wrong. I think you reminded me of this, but that time we were doing, what's that song that we do where we yell out our base name, like Doug the Bear and Mike the Human. Adventure Time, um When we were yelling about him, I think we said Mike the Fox, right? Here we did, we did the same with Fox, oh yeah, so anyway, back to. I was just saying creatively. just feel like, I don't know. I feel like I'm finally relaxing into a flow more where, know, um I think, you know, with the excitement of like, maybe even when we started the podcast and that first initial excitement of like mushrooms and psychedelics and, uh, creativity and like this, like tapping into a life I didn't know. I could have or existed. There's also this rush to also, I don't know, like create art that would make money that would then get me out of the corporate world or, know, um, and, just to, we'd have weekends together and be like, I want more of those weekends. You know, we'd go up, you know, early on we went to Humboldt with me, you and Eric, and the three of us were up there. And I'm just like, and at the time I'm like, this is the beginning of things to come, you know? And I still, I still think that's true, but I think I was expecting him to happen quicker and wanting him to happen quicker. And so I think then for a few years, it was like, how can I make this happen quicker? Cause I want it now. And there was something that's settling in that I felt, uh, or the culmination of a settling in that I felt when I was up there in Pocatello, there was just like, look, there's no, there's no rush to this. it's, it's something's unfolding. My life's unfolding. Yeah. about just appreciating, like being present to all of those moments and not speeding up the process, especially creatively. Cause I feel like when that happens, it just feels more like a premature ejaculation. You know, when you're just kind of like building to something, but then you want to get it out quickly. It's kind of like, that just, yeah, well then you just shot your load, dude. Well, dude, there's so much I want to address there that's just given me a lot of joy. First of all, our music is way better. That's what I noticed when you were here a couple of weeks ago. Dude, our music was like musicians. It was like we were playing music and feeding off of each other and playing each other songs and playing other songs and doing music. And so that's part of that process that you're talking about. Yeah, we wanted things to happen and a lot of things were happening for us, you know? And we just wanted it to be like this huge thing. like, I don't think that we would have, I don't, I don't think it would have had the lasting fulfillment. I'm speaking for myself here, obviously it wouldn't have the lasting fulfillment that it currently does for me because it would have just felt like I'll give you an example, Mike. So we can talk about this. There's this dude, a couple of years back, there's this dude who wanted to turn the podcast into a TV show. He's a TV producer guy. And so we, we, you and I were all jazzed and excited about it. And we would have these little fun, cute meetings and we get on zooms with all these people and we would be pretty excited about what was happening. And I'm so glad. You and I had a couple of conversations where it was like, they basically just wanted to turn it into like reality trash. You know what I mean? They wanted to have these like. contrived, almost phony. Like this person was doing meth in a halfway house and then they found mushrooms and they turned their life around and they're going to follow their story and look at them now and their family's having a little party for them. It was just like, felt so disingenuous and fucking fake, you know? But we kept going along with it. We kept talking. We kept like mapping out the thing. And then you and I like had a couple of conversations behind the scenes, just like you and me. where was like, this what we want? is this, this, this is not it, you know? We had these like visions of kind of like, know, Duncan Trussell's thing. What's that one? What's that one called? The uh Midnight Gospel or some kind of comedy. Like we, we, we, had some like, what if we, what if we animated some of the stories, some of the outlandish stories we tell on the podcast? I'll be kind of cool. But none of, none of, none of our vision or, or, or, or satisfaction was found in this concept of like truth. trying to create like, you know, the real housewives of Mormons on mushrooms, you know? Well, and it was like, uh yeah, no, I totally, I don't like we talked about it. Um, no, cause I was actually really proud of us. I mean, I felt proud of myself in a way for not chasing it to like reflect and be like, look, is this really what I want? And then to think of, okay, what is the vibe of the Mormons on mushrooms? And for the many different ups and downs and twists and turns we've taken on this podcast. The one thing we've always tried to do is just be ourselves and be authentic and be real. Yeah. ah authentic has been the driving thing. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. it's had to be, mean, that's only way we've been able to do this is just like, we just got to be real and to then have that associated with something that's not real, just felt like, okay, what, what, what's the point? What are we doing? And, um, that's a good point. It's a good point to bring that up now. I haven't thought about that in a while. Um, yeah. it just kind of came up. it's, I think it's right in line with what you're talking about, which is ah it maybe has felt like a slow burn. And I know that we've been at different speeds that you and I have been wanting different things at different times. We're pretty aligned now, I think, I hope. I think we communicate pretty well. But like, I mean, I, I, geez, man, like if it had happened, if it had all come like, we, we want to do music now. We want to be a big time podcast. We want to make a TV show now. And we didn't like hone and keep letting it burn and keep learning and keep developing and keep trying and keep working on our craft. Like I, I feel like I love and appreciate and am better at music now. I mean, that's obvious than I ever have been because I just got because I practice all the time, I play it all the time, I do it, And I like my music um to evolve. I like what it is right now. Does that make sense? And you know, there is something to it, you know, I mean, thinking of the Beatles and how like their first album sounded compared to their last albums, you know, so tracking. Right. Exactly. It's like, and so there would have been something about that of like capturing some of their earlier songs early on to have that. But I just don't think it was time. I don't know. And well, one, we both just started playing music a few years ago. Yeah, literally six years ago. But also like, um, it just felt like I'm listening to the stuff we've recorded now. And I'm like, if that, if I tried to, if I had recorded Austin nights two years ago, it sounded completely different. And to think of like how it's like evolved and how I've evolved, even with, I just feel like as my, like my singing voice, uh, compared to three years ago, two years ago, to what a journey of singing in front of people. mean, it has been just such a journey. mean, you're speaking on, you're a great singer. You're a great singer. Like I remember, I mean, I'm not a strong singer, but like I remember like when we first started trying to do music in front of people, I was just doing, like I didn't know what, I didn't even know how to sing, you know? Like now I feel comfortable singing in front of people. That's a pretty cool, like. fucking watershed moment of my life. That's a cool like something I can look at and be like, wow, I'll sing a song in front of somebody. I'll strum a guitar and sing a song for people. I'll try to harmonize with Mike weirdly, you know? Like I couldn't imagine a few years ago, you know, being in a group of people and like, Hey Mike, play us one of your songs. I would have, I would have frozen up. I would not like, and now I don't know a place where I wouldn't feel comfortable just being like, yeah, I'll sing you one of my songs. I still get a little sweaty. still get a little, you know, you still get that because the, but it's a different type of sweaty than before, like different type of thing. pretty convinced. I know I'm a sweaty dude as it is, but I'm pretty convinced that that sweat that comes out when we're playing music is like purge type sweat. You know what I mean? We're like sweating out emotions and stuff like that. mean, it's more than just flop sweat or stage fright or whatever. It's like, I'm going to give you everything. And so here's me singing as hard as I can and here's me sweating and just giving it my all. Do you know what I mean? Did I get Are you back? I'm back now. Yeah. But I think, I think we ended the perfect time because you just finished your thought. I missed like that last 20, 20 seconds, but okay, good. Cause, cause one thing I did play my song one, like for, uh still have a heart. My, my, my hardest thing actually is playing a song for one person. yeah, for sure, dude. you kidding me? Well, yeah. Why would that be a surprise? It's like, it's like, Hey, sit there while I sing a poem to you. And it's like, don't want to like, when you're in a group of people, you can kind of like look at different people and get them into it. If it's one person, he's like, do I look at them at all? do. Yeah, that's the hardest thing. Like I won't, I will not play a song for my wife. Like if I'm working on a song or something's coming through, do you know what I mean? Like I will strategically wait until she's like maybe rattling around in the other room or the kitchen or something like that. And I'll just kind of like start playing it, you know, out of nowhere. And then, you know, maybe she'll come in and she'll be like, Oh, is that a new one or, whatever. Or like a perfect example is Mike, I'll send you a song or you'll send me just yesterday, you sent me a beautiful new little ditty you're working on. Like you'll That's, that's a little more of the comfort zone, right? It was like, let, let that person enjoy it on their own and like listen on their own, but I'm not doing these one-on-one fucking, let me play a song for you sessions. Are you kidding me? No chance. we talk about that trip we had in a Zion early on and that cool, just a couple of cool Joe's like thinking, you know, it's hard to not. We did, we almost got some people, but it's hard not to. Cause I feel like so much about uh performing is expressing rather than performing, right. Getting out of the performing mode, the cool Joe mode, but it's really hard one-on-one to not be. I have a hard time just being expressing. It's like, I feel my cool Joe guy coming up. I can't, I can't turn him off. You know. uh that song you sent me yesterday is such a beauty. uh that was fun one just because it was just, that was me. got back from a concert last night. By the way, have you heard of Wardroona? Dude, holy shit. Yeah, dude. was, this Nordic tribal band. The guy, the guy sings. Yeah. have heard of them. I've got a couple of their things. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. Dude, they had the coolest fucking instruments I've ever seen in my life. I don't even know what to call them. They're like these horns that like, was like, yeah, like big horns that just stand up like this. And whenever they played it, you would just get these chills. And then this guy was just like chanting and channeling shit. And it was just like a vibe. I feel bad because like they were, they were at the Greek and it was, I had never seen it so empty. was like maybe half full at best a third of half full, which was still cool. I mean, you still have plenty of people. But it just didn't, if it was full and everyone was just like standing up and dancing, would have been one of the best concerts of my life. But because of that, was like more laid back, but still, yeah. Yeah. So anyway, you sent me that song and well, I'll, yeah, go, tell me, go ahead. Oh, cause that was just me. Like I just was feeling like I didn't want to go to bed, but like I just, I wanted to go to bed. I was exhausted from the weekend. I was like, look, I feel something coming through and I just really quickly picked up, played a few chords and just like whistled something and send it over or I sent it over to you next morning. yeah. was what I was gonna tell you. that's the difference between collaboration and playing together. If you had sat me down and said, listen to this, and you started playing that tune and started whistling one on one to me, I would have been like, stop whistling. That's what I would have said. was like, don't whistle to me right now, please. I can't take it. I can't take you playing this little tune and whistling and. Like now I'm like picturing like this little shitting grin on your face. Like you got some kind of like secret figured out. But, but if, but if we had been, if you had been like, Hey, I've been working on this and you start playing that progression. And then you like, and then I was like, let me try to follow along a little bit and do a couple of things. And then you started whistling. Then it's, it's completely different. Like, so that's the thing I'm, guess I'm talking about. like, it's like, Oh, I would never play a song for somebody one on one. because it's just like, I can't handle the pressure. But if it's like, hey, I want you to play this with me and see if we can do it and see if there's any legs, it's weird how that's like a completely different thing. it's interesting, right? Yeah. And like sometimes I do the whistling to find the melody, you know, like the, yeah. I'll tell you this, I'm going to tell you this, Mike. there's three people on the earth that, um, I will accept whistling and that's Axl Rose. a person that I can't mention their name and you, anybody else whistling, whistling? I don't understand what whistling is. Like I like, like, I guess I don't have a song in my heart and a whistle on my lips, but like when I'm wandering around and I hear someone like in like, like Albertson's Like I'm, like in one of the aisles and I hear someone like whistling. I'm like, there's people around. What are you doing? Why are you whistling? Like to me, whistling is not, not this like careless endeavor of like, you know, it's like Huck and Huck. Geez, of course I'm going to bring it back to Mark Twain. It's like Huck Finn and Jim going down the river and just whistling. I have a happy tune. That's not what I picture when I hear somebody whistling. I'm like, shut that racket up. What are you doing? The whole thing I said to was all whistling too. You're welcome. Well, I just told you there's three people I will have whistle, Maxl Rose and you, for not to be, he who shall not be named on this podcast. ever, ever, we'll never name a- We may someday name him, but... I don't have his permission to name him. He doesn't know about the podcast. uh Ha Good. The fewer the better, That's what I say. So I guess I'm going to make like a right turn here. Is that okay if I talk a little bit about the identity crisis I'm going through right now? So last week, as you know, I was for what? Four days? Four or five days? Wednesday night, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, So five days. I was the sickest I've ever been in my whole life by far. the sickest I've ever been in my whole life by a pretty large margin. And that comes on the heels of a summer where I've had some health problems. had my gallbladder removed and the recovering process from that is not all that difficult, but it also is like, gotta kind of like, you gotta try to like figure out what you can eat and you gotta like kind of, you know, heal up and stuff like that. And leading up to getting the gallbladder removed, I was having some gallbladder health issues, you know? Yeah, well, and you, I think it is expressed then that you were some of the sickest you, you were like, my pain was a 10 out of 10. the gallbladder pain was 10 out of And so last week I was like, couldn't even, like, and I had to have some really like fever dream negative self-talk conversations with myself during that time. Cause I was, it was not a thing where I could like put on some music to distract me or put on like a TV show with a background or I just laid there in silence in agony. and let my mind wander and be very, and kind of go back and forth between wandering to the worst places it could go to being very present with my misery. And I had to admit some things about myself, where I kind of feel like I'm one of these people. Ugh, God, this is part of the identity thing I'm still kind of trying to deal with. I had a session with Tracy to kind of talk about this. But like. I think I'm one of those people that you fear, which is they don't quite believe you when you tell them that you're sick. I think I'm one of those people where if people tell me that they're sick, I'm like, okay, I get it. You're sick. Well, whatever. Fine. But you, but you probably hamming it up a little bit. Like I think that I don't, I don't know that I've consciously been that person, but I think I had to, like, I think I had to come to terms with my, that I did, I have been that person where I haven't taken people's pain very seriously. You know what? can, I share that with you. think that's one of the hard times I have calling in sick because I'm like, no, really. I don't call in sick often. You guys, this is. Trust me. I'm. I can't make it, but, but why am I questioning that? Because I think on the flip side, I'm like, they're calling in sick. Well, even like COVID, like I got COVID during, during COVID, you know, when it was like the big thing and it's kind of coming back. Yeah. Um, I had COVID and I lost my sense of smell for what, like a year and a half lost my sense of taste for the week that I had it. And, know, I, and I was a little like low energy, you know I mean? Like, like I was a little low energy and I had to quarantine and I stayed home and Like I binged like a couple of seasons of, you know, fucking Frasier or something like that. And I was like, no big deal. And I was like, Oh, this is kind of like a little vacation. That's what I felt like. Right. And, and, and my whole life leading up to that, like, you know, I've had the flu and I've been sick and you know, that kind of stuff, but it's never been anything that I was like, okay. Like I wanted to die last week. And I also think that another, another self like confession that I had to make was not only am I one of those. When those assholes that doesn't believe people when they say they're sick, I also have considered myself kind of like low-key indestructible my whole life. And I've projected onto other people that they think that about me. And so was like a real ego trip. It was like a real shot to my ego. Like I couldn't respond to texts. I couldn't show up for people. couldn't... make little jokes about how I was feeling. I couldn't do anything. I just laid there miserable and barfing the whole time and being dehydrated and having severe pain and fever chills and just all the things, severe pain. And I realized that, oh, now I wonder if Mike's going to think I'm a little more... destructible than he thought I was. I wonder if my kids are gonna think that I'm not as indestructible as they might've thought. Like I think that's a real thing for me. Like I've always kind of maybe not even like brazenly or openly or even consciously. I don't think that I've like thought that. Maybe I have. But I certainly have. Approached my life that way. I certainly have approached my life that is just like nothing can harm me. I'm fine. Everything's fine You know what I mean? And so then I had to go through not only like the sick and pain and weird I also had to go through the mental anguish of like does everyone I know think that I'm a big fucking faker right now and Do they think that wow Doug's not as fucking tough and indestructible as he tries to pretend to be like I would I'm still going through, in fact, I'm still really struggling with this right now. I'm about to cry talking about this. Like I don't really, I don't really love these things about myself that I'm talking about. And I don't really have a ton of answers about it just yet. You know, I had a session with Tracy to talk about it and we got some, you can see I'm getting hot because I'm feeling a little uncomfortable. So I'm taking off my sweater, but uh, Plus we're one on one, you know. Yeah, here I am singing my song to you one on one, anyway. And so it's like, it's like this thing of like, if I'm not Doug, like if I'm not Dougie bear, if I'm not, if I'm not the Doug that I think the world thinks I am, then who then what am I? What good am I? What value do I hold? If, if the things that I valued about myself, I no longer are no longer true about me, then what the fuck am I doing? know? It's interesting um with, you know, what like our like our worst fears in a way, right? Because this one being phony is a big one for you. noticed. That's okay for me to repeat that. I'll bring, let's, let's, let me go back to that when you're done. Yeah. Yeah. And it's always so surprising to me because you the reason why people gravitate to you, the reason why I gravitate to you is because you are the most genuine person I know. You know what mean? So it's interesting that our worst fears sometimes it's like this. um it's why, when I come visit you that I feel like I'm at home because. Not only do I feel you, but then I get to see you and your people. And it's why people gravitate toward you. It's why a lot of people listen to this podcast. We'll talk about the authentic authenticity because people hear when you speak a part of them that they are too scared to see and to, and to voice because they are, they are putting, still putting up a mask where you've dropped the mask. Yeah, I like hearing that, obviously. Thank you for saying that. And it's like. Part of this thing is that I'm sitting here wondering, because of the thing about, OK, you don't believe people when they say they're sick. OK, you feel like you're indestructible. Have you been phony this whole time? And Mike, you're talking about uh my biggest fear. I don't know how you rank these things. I don't know if there's any official rankings of our fears. Obviously, my kids being injured would be the biggest fear. But like, it's like a dual edge sword of, and Tracy helped me kind of like, I put words to it, but she kind of helped me get there. Like being seen as someone who is insincere or phony or disingenuine. and not being universally loved. That's kind of sad. I don't think those are the same thing, but I think they're two sides of the same coin maybe or not. You know what I mean? Those are the things that I fear about is like the withheld love from the world. the, the, the, the, the, the worthiness of love, you know? And so when I, When I come face to face with a thing, God, it was like I was telling you, it wasn't like ayahuasca, but it wasn't not like ayahuasca. Do you know what I mean? Where I was just miserable and puking and getting my own head. When I was coming face to face with those, it really was the thing of like, you're a big fucking phony. Here's where that comes from. Well, I don't know here's where that comes from, but here's a core memory of mine that I'm going to share. Is that cool? Yeah, please that's what we're all about So when I was in like the fifth grade, My family went on this trip and my dad was buddies with this Navy guy. And we toured this Navy base, this Naval base. And it in San Diego. And we got to go on this submarine. Like we got to go on it and kind of, was, you know, in the bay or whatever you call it, in the dock. It wasn't under water, it just was up and you could go kind of tour around on it. So got to see all the cool things and the dude who, my dad's buddy who gave us the tour was like, oh, and this is right here. This, uh, I don't know anything about submarines, but this place that we're in right here was like mission control or like main kind of area. I don't think he used those words. He was like, uh, they use this, uh, they use this ship for filming some of the scenes for the movie, the hunt for red October, you know, And my little brain thought that was a pretty cool thing. And it was like a little factoid that I brought back to my little school chums and told everybody about and was like, Oh yeah, we were on the submarine that they used to film some of the scenes in the hunt for red October. m Like my buddies were like, that's not true. maybe it was, don't know. I don't really know the details of why this became a thing, but it became this thing where I became known and like my family and my friends, would always kind of, yeah, Doug tells these stories and he's kind of, he likes a tall tale and he likes to a lie or likes to exaggerate stories. mean, all of these things followed me, followed me everywhere I went. What the hell's going on over there? You got some guys hot dogging? You got some dudes hot dogging in your parking lot? That was funny. I thought, I thought you were having a, I thought there was an attack. I was nervous. Yeah. Anyway, and it's, it's shaped my, it's, mean, that shaped my whole life. That, that, those accusations have shaped who I am. Like when. When I try to tell someone about the size of anything, when I try to tell someone a story about how far a drive went, was I was playing golf, right? I try to weirdly, here's what I do. Let's use the example of a drive in golf. And let's say the drive went 280 yards. And I know it went 280 yards. When I retell the story to somebody, I'll be like, and then I hit this bomb that was like 280, well, maybe not 280, but like 270, 260 type of thing. Like that's how I tell stories now. I tell stories to, to, to anti-exaggerate, to downplay the thing. If I caught a fish that was, that was 24 inches long, I would say, man, I should have seen this fish. was 18, 19 inches long. That's what I would say. And because every time, every, every time I'm telling every single time I am telling any kind of story, like relating to someone, a thing that happened. In my mind while I'm telling that story, I am monitoring if I'm exaggerating or lying or stretching the truth or, you know, I love the phrase, like, never let the truth get in the way of a good story. And I'm happy to do that for like retelling myths and telling stories about like whatever. But when I'm retelling a thing that happened, I have that fucking meter running in my head the entire time. Cause I don't want the person who's listening to that story to be like my mom and dad and family and friends when I was in fifth grade, they're like, Oh, you're totally full of shit. By the way, I'm pretty pissed. I'm pretty pissed off about that, to be honest with you, because, because that, that became a thing because of that goddamn hunt for red October submarine. And my parents were on that fucking submarine with me and they heard that, Oh, I almost said the guy's name. They heard him say this, tell the same exact goddamn story that I, that he told. cute little fifth grade Doug who was like, wow, there was a movie shot here. That's cool. That'll be a cool thing to tell people. And they never, and they, and they, just played along with the whole like, yeah, Doug, you know, he loves talent. He loves talent tales. He loves a good story. You know, that kind of, he loved it. Fuck dude. I'm a little pissed off about this right now. good. You should be pissed off at that. Well, because one of the things I love is when you're telling myths, you know, I know we tried a different series on this podcast, one of the Patreon things we were trying to do. I wish it comes back to that time thing, man. Like there's so many things we would do if we just didn't have to do everything else, you know? But one of the things we were doing that Patreon series of like retelling myths and like exploring them psychologically. And I could hear you tell a Greek myth. over and over and over again and whatever. just, I love the way you tell those because you bring them to life in the way ancient storytellers told myths of like, they're not just retelling, telling what they heard. They're filtering it through their lens and their experience and they're telling you how they experienced the myth. And because that's how myths are. mean, even our memories are memories of memories, you know, like, and some of our core memories. are memories of memories of memories of memories. know what I mean? Every time we pick up a memory, we're remembering the last time we remembered that memory. Yeah, dude, that's an interesting thing. Cause it's like, it's freedom. Like when you're telling a story that is like, that is inherently not true, you can explore the storytelling methods, right? You can. So if I'm telling a story about Joseph Smith along the Susquehanna river and casting out, you know, Lucifer and his legions and then calling down Michael, the archangel. And like, can, I can ham that shit up because it didn't fucking happen. Nobody, it's not true. When I'm telling story from, you know, Greek mythology or Egyptian mythology or a Druidic tale, or I'm telling some from the Bible, dude, I can tell Bible stories as good as any fucking preacher there is. Like I am a good Bible storyteller, you know, because I can say whatever the hell I want. They're not true stories. But if I'm telling you about my golf game last week, I'm going to like, I'm going to like air to the side of me playing worse than I actually played. Do know what I mean? it down. You're going to make it less of a myth. You're going to make yourself small. Oh, no, but I can relate to the experience of like, okay, I've got something I tell, they're not going to, are they going to believe me? I'd rather them believe me and dial down the truth than tell the real thing. That's fucking crazy. It's fucking... crazy is that? I would rather they believe me than I tell them the real truth, is just a sensational and amazing, this cool thing. there's also a weird thing of like people, are people who don't like sensational things don't happen to them, I guess, because there are people that don't believe shit. Like there's a whole sub Reddit called something like that happened or something like that, where it's just like, Anytime somebody, anytime on Reddit, somebody says like, this happened to me one time, there'll be a person that's like, that happened, you know? And there's like a whole sub Reddit of like, can, catalogs, all of those things. And I went to it one time and it made me super sad because I was like, most of these stories seem like stories that could happen to a person. I've had some weird shit happen to me. You've had some weird shit happen to you. Everybody who's listening has had some crazy shit happen to them. And when you retell it, you want to bring people into like how miraculous and sensational and weird it was, to dial it down so that it sounds more believable. Dude, that's just, that's like bringing no seasoning to life and just, it's, yeah, fucking flavorless. into that like crab mentality that we have of like pulling the other crabs down. I even saw it on, I sent you a video I think yesterday. Remember the guy running through the streets of New York just like saying, fuck you finance, fuck you corporate America, I'm free, I'm free. He's twirling in the streets. Have you looked at the comments in that video? No, because here's the thing. The only thing I can look at comments on are uh TikToks or Reddits. Because if you send me an Instagram one, I can see it in my browser, but then it doesn't let me interact at all and I can't look at the comments or something. Well, good. Cause the top three comments are like, oh yeah, no, just wait till the mortgage check comes. Just wait till this comes. Just wait till it's like, yeah. I was like, dude, you don't think people escape the corporate grind? It happens all the time. And so like, I'm sorry that your life is so miserable. You can't experience this guy's joy. think this guy brought tears to my eyes. Like he's, he's my new mascot. He's an inspiration to me. And. And, people just need to tear him down and like take the seasoning out of life. Even if these cynical people, even if it's like he's doing a dream fulfillment kind of thing or trying to manifest or trying to write the check that later he's gonna cash and that's what this video is for him. Even if it's that, even if it's staged. What your life is so miserable that you're, you're going to go on social media and make a comment tearing him down for fulfilling his lifelong dream of living free from corporate life and not feeling like a slave to his, like to his corporate overlords. That's your big thing is going on the internet and take, taking people down a peg or something. Well, plus it's like, if that's his stage, all the world's a stage. You know, I love that, that line or that saying. I think you had something to say, right? Um, but it reminded me. So the night before last, was also, that was the Hollywood bowl and it was some band Astro, some Mexican super not Mexican, sorry, the Hispanic. They're from Columbia and actually Columbia and Columbia and super band Astro and some. Uh, and you know, they, they had this big screen behind them and it had like all of the Zodiac signs and. know, the Latin America, they know how to throw a fucking party and they know how to experience life no matter what. And I kind of had that moment of all the world's a stage and like, look, we're all here playing these roles and you know, some of us are Aries and some of us are Pisces and whatever. And. Isn't it so cool this drama we're enacting here and we're going to, you know, just like bring it to life. And they, they're spicy. They, they, they don't take the spice out of life, man. And that's what your fucking friends were doing and your family. that's what the, yeah. Well, you know, but, well, they, learned from. Yeah. Well, and also like, you know, the fucking church to, to, to throw some, you know, hate back that way too. Um. way. The, uh, because when I'm thinking of you, Doug, as like this kind of phony feeling and imposter syndrome, I see it though in missionary Doug and Doug, the Doug that I met, it, in college post mission. I don't see it in today's doc. Well, dude, you know, Mike, that's such a God. that we're talking about this, that's so. Speaking of when you were here and I think we talked about this in the last episode, so we'll just be really quick, but like we have the time of our lives at the Darius Rucker concert. Like who cares? Who gives two shits who it is? You and I had the time of our life. I didn't really know who he was until I landed and I'm like going to Darius Rucker, I'm like, who? And then like, oh yeah, know who, who, who, know Hooty and the Blowfish. Yeah. Yeah. Hooty. Yeah. Are you going to the mall later? That's what I'm asking. So like we were just, and by the way, by saying had the time of our lives, we were a little tuned up and we were dancing like crazy and we were wearing Care Bear hats. Yeah, a typical Saturday with Mike and Doug. Friday. uh gonna go to an outdoor concert from a guy who was the lead man of the biggest 90s band in the world for a while there, and you're not gonna wear your Care Bears hat and have a couple of beers and dance? So the reason I'm saying that is because I told you later that I heard from and my wife heard from and my coworkers heard from and my friends heard from people coming out of the woodworks that were like, looks like Doug was having a really good time at the Darius Rucker concert. And it's like by reaching out, like by making the effort to reach out to Doug or Doug's wife or Doug's friends or Doug's coworkers and say, man, I'm typing this text now. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to use my thumbs to type this text that says it looks like Doug had a good time at the Darius Rucker concert. Do you mean Doug was dancing and wearing a Care Bears hat because that's what he was doing. What the hell, what the hell is going on here? What the hell is going on here? and it's so interesting when you were telling me all those comments, because I left that being like, that was a great concert. had a great time. And, and by the way, I think the first concert we've been to together. Yeah, the first concert we've been together, which made it memorable. Other than that, it's like the 50th best concert I've ever been to. Like, you know what I mean? It doesn't even rank, you know? Yeah, it was just kind of like, other than that highlight and like, oh shit, Doug, need to go to, why haven't we been doing this all the time? Yeah, it was, I didn't think I danced. I thought everyone else, I thought we were just going as wild as everyone else. Well, I guess not, guess we were like the, I guess we were the, what do you call it? The bells of the ball. Dude, but this thing about, I just want to maybe, I can button up my little piece about identity, because I'm still working through it and I don't know how it's going end up for me and I don't know what it's going to look like. um But I just have to let the world know that I desperately want you to not think I'm a phony. And I desperately want you to love me. And I hate myself about that. And I hate you a little bit about that actually. um But I'm gonna dig in a little bit and see what that's about. Cause it's been really... Yeah. I don't know what that's about, man. And, and, and, and, know, it's weird, but, well, shit, I don't want to get into that's a little too close to home. So I'm not going to get into that part, but, um, yeah, I guess I'll, guess I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll swing at this direction when it comes to like things like feeling imposter syndrome and feeling, uh, like a contradiction of yourself and feeling like, uh You want to appear one kind of way to the world, but you feel another way about yourself internally. speaking of feeling like a fraud and kind of like chasing down endeavors that are a little bit against your, your moral code, but you want to be a money grubber and try to build an empire and build some wealth and get some money and live the good life and be part of the elites and all that kind of stuff. Do you know who else struggled with that like big in a big way mark fucking twain man Mark Mark twain is the most famous american I think can you think of a more famous american than mark twain? Elvis Presley may, I don't think so though. I don't know if, yeah, mean, um every, I mean, Donald Trump now, you know, um but like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Trump is very famous, but Mark Twain for the sake of this little piece of this little piece of my soul, I'm going to drop here. Mark Twain, think is the most famous American that ever lived and, represents the spirit of what I think Americans wrestle with. And it's like an avatar of both sides of like the political aisle and both sides of the religious aisle and both sides of the. uh East versus West and uh the innocence abroad and roughing it. he's hanging out with coal miners and learning to spin yarns and tell tall tales. he talked about how he wrote a letter to his mom where he's like, man, I heard an old miner tell a story about a jumping frog winning uh a frog jumping contest. And if I could only write the way that guy tells a story, I would be the most famous writer that ever lived. Like this is uh Mark fucking Twain sending this to his mom wanting like his big hero is a dirty old coal miner in Nevada who tells a story about a jumping frog. And he's like, man, if I could tell a story like that, I'd be something. And then he goes on, you know, he goes to the cook, he goes to Hawaii and he goes abroad and he travels Europe and he goes all over the place and he goes along the Eastern seaboard and he has a Victorian mansion in Connecticut and he pokes fun at the elites and he. And he, all of his material is making fun of like the way that they live their lives and how they, how they just don't quite get it. And they don't understand the human, like the working man or the working class, but then he does so desperately also wants to be them and has like deep resentment for them. think Mark Twain represents, he represents Democrats. think he represents uh Republicans. I think that he represents people who feel a conflict within themselves where they want to be true to their roots and they want to be who they are and they want to be true to their values. And also they want something different and they don't quite believe it about themselves and they feel a little bit of uh other people's judgment on them and they then resent people for that judgment and he feels like he's never going to be successful and he feels like he's never going to make it. And meanwhile, he's cranking out Huck Finn. and Tom Sawyer and Connecticut Yankee and King Arthur's court and roughing it like we're talking about Mark Twain. I don't think I have to explain to people like, here's a here's a culturally significant person from history. It's Mark fucking Twain. Anyway, so I'm also inserting that into my little uh algorithm of this kind of crashing self doubt and identity crisis that I'm kind of working through right now. So be patient with me, Mike and others. man. But also, know, sometimes when one of the things about dreams, right, when Like a cheat to dream work in a way of, you know, when you can't figure out what the blue turtle with a beard is trying to tell you or, what that means in a dream, you know, when he's talking to the mermaid or whatever. You're like, what does that mean? Symbolic? I don't get it. You know, one of the reasons why you're like, well, what, what did the dream feel like? You know, what feeling was associated with it? It's usually coming up because it's ready to be let go and released. It's once it wants to be felt. wants to be, you know, And sometimes it doesn't need to be figured out. It just wants to be felt so it can be fucking purged. That is a cheat. really good at, the other things that you do about, that I just like, they're just seamless and you do it so well is like, what is in your mind when you think about turtles, what comes up? When you think about beards, what comes up? When you think about the color blue, what comes up? So you just take every component of the blue turtle with a beard talking to a mermaid and you just break it down and say, well, what do you think about with each one of these elements? And then the person tells their own story. Like they're like, well, this is what I think about is like, well, I don't mean to like flash a bunch of lights here, but it's probably something to do with your relationship with your dad. uh And so other words, man, I think it's about time a lot of these deep feelings of you being a phony are released. Let go of. I agree with you, I'm not committed to it yet because even as we're talking about it and I'm trying to bare my soul about it, I can feel it creeping in. And so I'm really going to try to not solve it, just be with it and see what's coming up. See why I'm feeling this way and see what kind of things, how it manifests, how it shows up in like... the physical realm for me, how it shows up in my relationships, how it shows up in my behavior, the things that I go do. Tomorrow is a great example. Tomorrow I'm taking the day off and it's first time I've had a day off to just do whatever the hell I want to do for quite a long time. I'm alone. So I'm like, well, what am I going to do? uh I'm going to see how the decision making, because I think a big part of when I have something like that come up, you and I have talked about this before, is I think about like, well, What would my wife want me to do and could I get any little chores done? And is there something that needs to be done around the house that I've kind of been putting off? Could I help, you know, could I get the property ready for winter? I, like, there's a lot of things that I could do, but I kind of want to sit and see if I can keep tunneling through all those layers of what I ought to do and get to what I want to do. Because I know we're at a time here, Mike, but I want to make this one last. kind of thing. In this journey that you and I have been on, we've really explored the idea of like the quantum, like quantum theory or multiverses. Multiverses are so hot right now, right? All of this Marvel and DC are doing multiverses and uh Rick and Morty is doing, like everybody's doing multiverse, right? There's multiple dimensions. to do with more mussels and mushrooms, but uh people take us up on it for a hot minute and then they stop. Yeah, we tried to do multiverse with the Mormonism. Like multiverses are so hot. Like every version of you that could possibly exist, everything everywhere all at once, won an Oscar. It's just like, it's so hot right now. But a uh question that's been burrowing into me is if I were to explore... the very finite nature of my being. If I were to explore just the finite version of this version of my consciousness, so the opposite end of the multiverse, and know somebody could, some mathematician out there is arguing that technically there's no real opposite end of a multiverse for quantum theory, but shut up smarty pants, I'm trying to make a point here. Like the beauty that comes from if If I were to accept that my state of being is finite, am I utilizing that limited time in ways that I want to? In ways that make me feel lit up and alive, in ways that make me feel fulfillment and satisfied, in ways that challenge me, in ways that make me uh feel like I've not spent my time in vain because there's infinity out there waiting for me and there's infinity versions of me and there's heaven and earth and, and eternity. And instead just being here right now. And I know that's the concept of being present, but it's really a thing. I've it's really a thing that's been like sticking in my little crawl. Like I've really been thinking about it quite a lot and it's kind of, it's kind of been a beautiful thought for me lately.