Living in the In-Between (#219)

From hotel revelations to Book of Mormon fan fiction — Mike and Doug catch up after a month apart to talk faith, fantasy, and the messy beauty of the in-between. They wander through Mormon nostalgia, creative purpose, and what it means to enjoy life without an endgame.

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Transcript

1:49

But it is interesting how like uh you have to like, it's almost like relationships with different plugs, right? You got to like, you have to like learn like their love language, I guess, or something like that. Like you have to learn how to like communicate with them. Like that's what you're going through. I'm going through that right now too. You know, it's like, okay, how does this person like to feel alive? how can I, what do I need to do? Like I'm caretaking, you know, Like, hey, could I buy some medicine from you? It's so funny. It's such a funny world. You know, who would thunk, know, 10 years ago, 12 years ago? It's wild. I know, me neither. It's pretty funny. on the other side of the screen, I know, it's like, because we talk all the time, but it's been a pretty hectic like month. What the fuck? When's the last time we actually recorded an episode? I was looking at it, was like the end of September, September 30th. It's been a month. Yeah. We've never gone this long before. Uh-uh. No. But life is, life's been, life's been a bitch lately. It's been cool too, but also a bitch. And we had a weekend in Park City together. Yeah, Shoot, man. haven't, it has been a while since we talked. We haven't talked about that. We haven't talked about all the things going on in our life. We have, I geez, happy Halloween. You know, we had Halloween two weeks ago or whatever it was. uh We do, yeah. There's a lot going on. Well, kind of thing, like thematically, what kind of thing do you want, do you feel like talking about today? Like, do you feel like getting? was a- getting what? Finish that. Do feel like getting down and dirty? do want to dive into like, cause you know, we haven't spoken since the, uh, since the prophet of the Mormon church died, you know, Russell Nelson died and they made a new prophet and it's Dallin Oakes who like I've got, you know, I got some beef with, like, like, there's been a, do you want to go to the Mormon? You want to talk about Mormon stuff? I've been reading the book of Mormon. Uh, we've also, you and I did. Trip together so we could talk about like do a little trip report talk about some of the things that we've learned we could talk about The world series like I mean Mike there's so much shit that's been going on there. We could talk about some personal stuff do want to talk about the profit exchange, exchange or whatever, the conclave, the Mormon conclave. I think the doctrinal language is the profit exchange is what the God calls it. It's so obvious like trading cards. He's like I'll give you a I'll give you a Dalin H. Oaks if you I'll give you a Dalin Oaks if you'll give me a Russ Nelson, you know, it's like trading cards with your friends. But first, do you remember when I think when we were in Park City and I was talking about that movie Tiger Town? What? Tell me more. you know, Tiger Town is a movie about this kid who goes to these Detroit tiger games. And as long as he's going and he's wishing that Detroit tigers keep winning. And I was just saying that I think that like, Oh, okay. Um, I think I just Tiger Town, the Dodgers winning that game. I was in a bar and I was just like, doing my Tiger Town wishes. you know, that game was just like the most miraculous win of like ever maybe. m You So you're welcome LA Dodgers, second year in a row. I'm sorry any Canadians out there. I'm sorry. I don't know if Peter has a team or whatever, but like, sorry, Peter and our Canadian friends, Pam. like singling out Peter like, hey, sorry about the Toronto Blue Jays. We, you know, we don't know. We don't know what happened there. That is true. It was a miraculous win. I thought the Blue Jays were going to win. And so I've had to, so on uh TikToks, a lot of TikToks have been showing like, it's been showing me like a Blue Jays fans reactions to the game. So I've had to win with the choices of the manifestation choice that I made to have the Dodgers win for the second time in a row. Like it was a huge celebration, right? I was at a bar. I had the most fun I've ever had watching a baseball game. Afterwards, we're like partying with these people at this bar dancing and this one guy kind of sums it up. He's like, you know, This just feels fucking great. And you know what? Like I was actually okay with the Blue Jays winning it this year because we won last year, but like hell, I love winning two years in a row. And meanwhile, you know, I think the city of Toronto is on suicide watch this last couple of weeks. So I'm really sorry that I got greedy, but you know, I needed to manifest to win. I wanted a good night at a bar and I got it. Yeah. Hey, Mike, there's something fun that just real quick that can kind of like... uh This podcast is not just gonna be all World Series talk now. From here on out, we just talk baseball. And we dig in, we get really inside baseball. Do you know who led the Cubs in ninth inning doubles in the month of August? We're not gonna do that. uh When we were together, we tracked down some good times, as we are sort of want to do. And when we were in that space, we did actually talk a little bit about it. that night was like the BYU Utah football game, remember? It was a big deal. We were down in like Park City. Uh, the big thing was you go, it was the cutest thing ever, Mike. I don't know if you remember this, but you were like, you know, I just, I, I have to admit to you guys that I love BYU's blue. Like I love BYU blue. I hate BYU and I just, I just, I just, but I love the color of blue that BYU has. And that's why maybe you go, that's why I just took to, as soon as I moved to LA, I took to being a Dodgers fan so quickly because with being a Dodgers fan, I get to wear that. that sort of like color of blue. Like I get to wear BYU blue and I was just like, holy shit, dude. So what other things like where have like, when I think about like, like the overcorrection stuff, you know, when I think about like, like, you know, from from the beginning of this podcast, we talked about like throwing the baby out with the with the bathwater, which I think that I'm guilty of. Like it's never it's never ending, right? I'm always like having to go back and be like, OK, did you might have overreacted to this? But like what other things like I kind of wanted to dig in on like, OK, what other things do you miss? Because like what it brought up for me, like when you were talking about when you were talking about like wearing Dodger blue and being like, can wear BYU blue because it's Dodger blue. I know we've kind of touched on this before, but one of the things that I really, really miss is like getting super emotional when like I'm singing like a like a holy night or something like that, like like like like hymns. that really hit, like nearer my god to thee with the right kind of like harmonies and stuff like that can just be a little bit of a tearjerker for me. There are things that I miss. What do you miss about being a Republican? What do you miss about being a Mormon? What do you miss about being a white guy? I mean, you're still a white guy. I mean, I miss having all the answers. mean, I knew everything. I had the answers to everything. um I miss... It's funny you mentioned a holy night because I was actually playing that on the guitar last night. I was a little wine drunk and just playing some Christmas carols and that was one I played. it one that... It's been interesting on this journey of like uh voice opening, right? Because it's like... That song used to be really high for me. And I'm like, no, I'm hitting these notes really well now. And I was just really excited about being able to really sing Oh Holy Night. And that's good question. You're the one reading the Book of Mormon. How's that been? Yeah. How far into are you? Yeah. Please, that's why asked. So I... You know, I do it six years later, Mike, and I'm still kind of careful about like giving out personal details. Do you know what I mean? It's so funny. It was too fucking care. And nobody that's listening to this cares about my personal details. Anyway, twice a year. So I said, sit on this board. Um, it's like a volunteer board and it's a very like low, low commitment, but twice a year I have to go out of town for a board meeting. And I always dread it because it's, it's out of town. And it's a situation where I end up being like in a, cause they, they, pay for my shit, you know? So I'm in this like hotel that's kind of odd. They always pay for the one that's off the beaten path and you got to do like the little dinner, you know, the night before. And then the next morning is like the big, you know, six hour meeting anyway. So I was. and a three nights in a row. Talking about the... like that's, that's exactly it from my song. Yeah. It's the vendor dinner three nights in a row, another steak dinner, another hotel room, totally. Anyway, so I get, you know, I get back from the hotel room or I get back from the dinner to the hotel room. I've had some wine with, with the other people who are on this, you know, thing they, they buy our meals and we had some wine. So I'm a little, so I'm a little bit wine drunk. And so I'm not in a mood of like, I don't want to like get an Uber and go into like where there's people drinking or where there's things going on or where could watch a sport like a football game with some people. Right. And also, also, I really am. Like, I really don't like doing the uh turning the TV on in the hotel room and like just falling into that trap of just like laying there watching like hotel TV. Suddenly you find yourself like watching like reruns of like ice road truckers or something like that, you know, because you don't know how the. remote control works and you don't know where any station is in a hotel room. You're just like, I guess I'll watch ice road truckers. That's what I used to do when I was Mormon and traveling for work because we wouldn't go out with people. mean, I go out to dinner and then I come back to the hotel room and just put on TV and just, I would kind of secretly hope it would like get to something a little bit like dirty. Like, but, then it wasn't me that did it. was just like, Oh, I was watching HB. I didn't know this show had nudity. me. Yeah. I, I dozed off during, you know, Harry Potter. And then I, when I woke up, it was like some kind of like casual connections or something. Um, yeah. Taxi cab confessions. So I'm kind of in that in between the point I'm trying to make is I'm in the, I'm in the in between. Right. And so I'm like, well, it's early. It's not, it's, mean, it's too early for me to go to bed. So I'll set up. kind of, I always, you I travel, I got my little kind of like. alter to go type of thing, you know. So I light some candles and I kind of get down with it and I do touch, just a little touch of ketamine at it to my night, you know. And I'm playing music. Like I'm just like, I don't have, I don't have like my guitar or any music. I'm just like playing music through my tiny little speaker that I travel around with. I'm dancing, having this time of my life. Well, in the course of that, I like, I'm like a raccoon. I'm like digging through all of the drawers in the hotel room. And sure enough, there's a Gideon Bible. And there's a uh book of Mormon. And so I'm like, shit, dude, a book of Mormon. What? Let me just start getting into this. So I just start reading like, like just for fun. Like I'm kind of, I'm kind of like, you know, in the zone. So I read like just from page one, like I'm like, okay, what is a person? Like what is a person who doesn't know anything about this? Who's in this hotel room, who picks up this book? Like what's their experience like? So I start reading like, it's like, okay, the, you know, the. introduction page and then I start reading the testimony of three witnesses testimony eight witnesses then like the little and then and then there's like the little story of Joseph Smith that's in there in the front you know it's like yeah this is how this kind of thing would happen and what and dude reading that with a fresh set of eyes I was captivated I was like dude people are reading this and just being like yeah maybe maybe this is the thing I'm into I was just like whoa no no way so Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I mean, I could I could get down. I don't know. You just never know what's gonna happen. So like, so then I was like, is beginning tonight, finally. finally, I'm an Italian man and I found this book on a dumpster. Remember that? Like the Italian priest or so. uh So then I'm just like, can't, I can't stop myself. So I just started reading the book more. And as I've been reading it, I'm in, uh I'm in like Alma, I'm in like Alma 18 right now, you know, and as I've been reading it, it's just been. I don't know how to say this without being offensive. It's been like. What? Like my reaction this time around has not been like trying to find, you know, find corrections or like really dig into like, oh, you know, how could this be true? Timelines and historical and archeological and historical. Like I'm not doing that at all. I'm just reading it like as if somebody's just just let me just read this thing. But as I'm reading it, I'm like, I I based, wait, not only did I base 30 something years of my life on this thing, everyone I know did too and currently still is kind of like, what are we doing? Has anybody read this shit? And they're every week they're going through it and being like, boy, I love this one, you know, part, like there's just one paragraph in this book. I just got to tell you guys about it I'm going to break it down and tell you about what the Greeks meant when they said it. Yeah, Joseph. It's like, what are you guys? Everybody. OK, Emperor has no clue. Let's all just take a deep breath and. This is silly, right? Like this is the ramblings of a crazy person. Like, come on. Like this is the story of, the story of a Benedi is nuts, bro. Like I, you know, I got through Mosiah and I'm reading through like King Noah and, a Benedi coming in and they're like, yeah, we had him, this one old man was crazy. And we put him in the court of the Kings and there's all these judges were whispering to King Noah, like, no, no, no, no. And when they were like so mad at what he was saying that they were burnt, you know, burn him. Burn him alive, burn him at the stake. And I'm like, come on, what? What are you guys talking? What is going on here? You guys did, you guys are believing this shit? Come on. there's a, you know what? There was a time, this is sparking a memory of when I was still Mormon and believing, but kind of starting in the questioning period where I actually was like, look, I think it has to be true because, I mean, it's not like a cool story. It's not like, you know, it's not like, if he's making something up, was going to be like, make something up like Lord of the Rings or, you know, like something that's like, has a plot and like cool. story. So I was like, Oh, it's gotta be true because why else would it be so fucking boring? And you haven't even gotten to the, the Alma, like the, the, the slog of the Alma chapters yet. You're like just beginning. Yeah, so I'm in the early Alma chapters, dude. So I haven't even, yeah, you're right. I haven't even gotten into like the big war stuff, you know, getting in. But like, here's the thing, Mike. Maybe this has happened or maybe we should do it. Actually, let's look into this. I have an idea right now. I have a real time idea. It might be a bad one. So let's just talk it out and let's just, this is part of the podcast, guess now. So you know how like every few years, like a, There's this like weird crossover, like a book will come out where it's like written for young adults. It's like a, it's like a teen book. And it uses like traditional, like vampire type stuff. Like Twilight was, is an example, is a good example, right? Hunger game. So it uses like traditional, like, uh, like storytelling, like it uses traditional recognizable characters and then creates this like chosen one, uh, for, for a teenager. And then. Weirdly, they also become a little bit pornographic and uh they become like directed towards like lonely housewives weirdly. Like I don't know how that there's some kind of the Venn diagram of that is very strange where it's like there's like this overlap, right? Like Maze Runner and the Court of Thor of Roses and the fucking Hunger Games and falling in love with vampires and werewolves, spirits and witches and Harry Potter. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. ahead. no, I think I was just thinking of the Court of Thorn and Roses. I haven't read them, yeah, it's like the fairy sex and stuff. eh and there's fairies having sex or there's vampires having sex or there's Frankenstein, you know, whatever. uh real quick, I was driving just the other day to lunch with coworkers and we had to take two separate cars. And so I just had one coworker in my car to drive into lunch. it was a woman, like, I don't know, maybe like a different generation, like maybe, I don't know how much younger she's than me, 10, 15 years or so. But she was talking about, we were talking about what movies you're watching. She's like, I've wanted to watch Sinners um and spoiler alert for Sinners, but like, Uh, it's been a year, so whatever it's like, we did, we did. So, yeah. Um, but she's like, a lot of her friends and people online were surprised that you had to let, you would have to invite a vampire in. And I was like, what? She's like, because in, Twilight, you didn't have to do that. I'm like, my gosh. So not only did they do the vampire lore, but they like, I'm like, what? I was almost mad. Like you can't have a vampire book. about vampires, everyone knows you have to invite a vampire in. That's part uh of the psychology of a vampire. That's why they're psychologically significant in myth. things, right? There's like five vampire things and you can't be like skipping over two or three of those main like foundational vampire things. can't then when. Good. Fine, whatever. Yeah, yeah, fine. You want to be a heartthrob who's weirdly preying on like, okay, fine. But listen, what I'm trying to say is, and maybe we should try this or maybe it's already been done, but like let's drop our. main character, our protagonist. Let's drop our heroine into Book of Mormon times and have her uh be like in love with a Nephite and in love with a Lamanite and retell the story of those battling clans uh through like the Romeo and Juliet, because that's all they're fucking doing, all these things. They're just taking the Romeo and Juliet model from Shakespeare and they're putting a little bit of like, ooh, this makes my penis tickle a little bit. They're putting a little bit of like a tingly, like butterflies in your stomach, kind of flowery wording about like who's licking whose cracks and who's like like the tense, like the soft touch of their skin and like the building the tension. Let's just do that and make it and gear it towards the Book of Mormon lore. We can, got, dude, we already fucking know all of the mythology about it. We can, we can like drop it in easy. Let's do it. Think of this guy. like, you know, is like, he goes out, he finds this Lamanite woman, they fall in love, just like love affair. But then like it's at the time of Captain Moroni and Captain Moroni has just unveiled this, what was it? I almost called it the Statue of Liberty. What do we call it again? The standard. Standard of Liberty. He's just. the standard delivery and now this guy feels torn like and you know they're gonna go to war and yeah I mean there's and it could be a full series I mean there's different timelines in the Book of Mormon and they could be dude, what we're doing is we're making our person uh a time traveler. we're actually going through like that. By the way, the standard of Liberty has been erected is already like filled with phallic uh imagery and symbolism. Like, let's go, baby. We already got some like sexy times ready to happen. So what I'm seeing is that like, Mike, what I'm seeing... can picture her calling it his standard of liberty. My standard of liberty has been erected. So I'm saying like our protagonist is a Mormon girl who is, she feels like there's more out there. She feels like everyone seems to get it but her, but nobody quite sees that she's got something special and that she's kind of, she got that nagging feeling that there's more to life and that she's maybe the one. And somehow through, you know, whatever kind of like, like, You know, getting kicked out of seminary or going to Sunday school. She, she falls into a time warp and figures out how to time travel. And suddenly she's shown up in all these places in the book of Mormon and she's fallen in love with, you know, white Lamanites, you know, a white Lamanite who, who then, because of the actions of his like, like great uncle weirdly, like his great uncle, layman, uh, this just innocent little Lamanite teenage boy is like suddenly turned from white to dark skin and. We kind of, we kind of like examine kind of that whole, how that happened and what she's dealing with and how they interact and how they, and how he's like torn between what, know, righteousness and his family. Dude, we could do a whole fucking series about this. And he like gets transformed. His skin transforms on a full moon one time. like, but by the way, this isn't fully new. Did you ever read tennis shoes among knee fights? Yeah. Yeah. He got, goes into a time that some Mormon kid who goes into a time movement, but you know, there's no, I think we could do it better than tennis shoe among knee fights. Yeah, dude, if we may. So is is tennis shoes among the knee fights uh a love story? falls in love or not. mean, it's meant for like kids, think teens, but like pre, I bet, you know, it's a, like teens is like Twilight, but like, I remember I listened to one or two of the books on tape when I was a teenager. But basically, yeah, that's it better. And frankly, the big part about this mic that's going to really make it a bestseller is we got to allude to smut. It cannot be direct, blatant vulgarity, but we got to allude to sexy times and make it like, really pull the tension tight. I think we're there. all about the tension. It's all about that tension, baby. I don't know how I got us down this path. because you asked me about reading the Book of Mormon. Yeah. So that's how the Yerbaik Mormon race is going. I'm trying to think of other things that I miss about being, know, like, cause I lived that whole life of being a Republican Mormon missionary, newlywed with kids. mean, you know, the Republican party was the one true party. The church was the one true church. I knew the correct answer. mean, I was, you know, a mini Charlie Kirk at one point, you know, rest in peace. truthfully. You know, you said a good one there where you said like you miss having all the answers. Like you miss, you, you, miss always being right. That like, no, no joke. Like not, not, I'm not trying to like throw shade here at all. I fucking miss being always right. I like being right. I really love, I love, I love being right. Do know what I mean? Like I love it when I got a I love it when I got someone set up for like, I got you. And I'm right. And dude, being, you know, growing up Mormon and being a, from a conservative family and, and, you know, Republic, I was right. Didn't matter. I was always correct. No one knew all the answers, uh, that, didn't have the same answers that I had is what I'm trying to say. I love that. I miss that. Well, I remember that was the scariest part to me when, so my wife stopped believing before I did. And when she told me that it was the first time like eternity felt uncertain. Like I was so even as a quite, I mean, I was pretty questioning at the time when she left, I'd started listening to Mormon stories. I'd started to go down rabbit holes. I'd read rough stone rolling. I was very much a liberal Mormon, very liberal politically, and also just in my Mormon beliefs was like taking things a little more loosely. And even then it was like, was still so certain that it was true that that night was like, whoa, what does eternity look like for me now? Dude, it's scary as hell. Yeah, and it was scary. It was like, I just remember feeling like the word, everything felt wobbly. It would just didn't fit. And because before it just everything felt so certain and I checked all the boxes. All I had to do was, isn't it weird that you check all the boxes and when you're 22, all the boxes you need to check and now it's just enduring to the end. from 22. to 80, 100, however long you live. Maybe with modern technology, we live to 120, who knows? But like. Those years are just holding on now to the end, enduring to the end. Dude, Mike, that's a thing. And I guess it's probably surface level stuff, but like that is like one of the biggest, like observing it nowadays is so strange, right? So like, like I've got daughters, have an adult daughter who's, who's graduating from college this spring. I've got another soon to be adult daughter who, you know, in high school, like, just watching what they're going through as far as like what, yeah, what is your life? Like your life, you have. It's open to you. Like there's so many options and so many cool opportunities and so many cool things you can do. And it's like when I was that age, my options were uh for sure go on a mission. Even though I didn't want to. It's like for sure go on a mission. That's the only way to like make sure you don't get in trouble with your mom and dad. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And I genuinely wanted to, I mean, I thought I was like, felt the burning of the bosom and I wanted to go share that burning. That's also, that could also be a good, uh, smut, like missionary going around sharing the burning. It's like an STD. Suddenly this missionary is like, I'd like to share the gospel with you, but he's just like pimping, like pimping ain't easy. He's like just going around like a gigolo. Like he's just fucking, fucking scubber. more of a fashion like, you know, asking them afterwards, how are you feeling right now? Well, you know. that you're feeling, like during orgasm, that feeling that you're feeling is the spirit of God. You have to now follow me. You would not be feeling that without Joseph Smith. Now you know Joseph Smith was a true prop. Yeah, can you feel like talking about Joseph Smith and mid sex is so sexy. Sorry, I got to stop track. A pillar of light. I saw a pillar of light. Dude, I had a wild time. We'll get back to where we were talking about. But this week I went to a concert. Our buddy David invited me to, he was playing drums at a concert. was for this uh queer artist who just released his first EP. And I go and everyone's in white. it was like a very, you know, his first song, he was just like singing to the crowd, this is holy space. I am holy space. Where I walk is holy space. And it was like, damn, you know, it was like, And he was bearing his soul. was a holy space. was, he was sharing his art in such a vulnerable, beautiful way that he'd created this holy space where he felt safe to fully just let out his weird and his emotional and his good vibes. You know, he just bathed this in his good vibes. And at one point I had my hands raised like a, you know, you went in like a revival, like a fist forward. on, yeah. and people around me were doing it and we were just like feeling the spirit. And afterwards I'm out chatting with David and this guy comes out and we're talking about the concert. We're just kind of connecting. And I'm like, man, I just felt like it was such a spiritual experience for me. I was doing this. He's like, yeah. He's like, it's almost like this pillar of light was like descending. And I was like, wait a minute, hold on. I'm like, I'm ex-Mormon. This is like, he's like, I'm ex-Mormon too. Like he's this cool ex-Mormon artist. just, you know, met him at the concert, but like. so funny, you told me that story. It's so funny that, did he know that you had ties to Mormonism? Because that's such a funny phrase to use. Even if you're just at a concert and you're talking to other concert goers about this elevated feeling, this spiritual revival, this day of Pentecost that you're having, it's kind of strange to drop, it was like a pillar of light. gradually descending upon me. That's a strange fucking sentence to drop, right? Like, this doesn't come out. I don't know. We hadn't talked about it, but he was also mutual friends with David. So maybe David did mention that, you his friend he's been, you know, playing music with. Maybe it was a little bit of a setup, you know, he was setting the two of us up, but, um, but whatever it was, it was, you know, like, uh, and it may also had that feeling of like, look, That feeling of the spirit is what kept me to that certainty, right? That's how I knew that the church was true. And that's why I knew that despite all my questions, all my doubts, um and that's why it was so scary when my wife no longer believed it. So I was like, wait, no, but I'm certain because I felt that feeling. But how much more often have you felt that feeling and how much stronger have you felt it since leaving Mormonism? way more frequently and more tangible. like more of a shared feeling too. I keep alluding to this thing that we did in Park City. was you and me and it was some dudes that were kind of a little bit newer to some of these spaces, a little bit newer to some of these medicines. What an awesome experience that was. you and I, dude, you know what I realized? Uh, you know that, you know, Shakespeare said the ICF not itself, but by reflection in some other thing. And I, I saw a reflection of Doug and Mike in that weekend in the, in the homies that we were hanging out with, because it's like, you and I get, we get kind of pretty weird, bro. Like we, we get, we get weird. And we upped our way. mean, we've gotten that a little bit that weird when it's just the two of us together. But I don't know if we've ever gotten that weird. We've gotten that weird sometimes when we were like in the bedroom and when we're up in the Tetons and stuff and and we were sweating and doing this panther crawl and whatever. ah That we were doing all that. But with yeah, with other people. m it's, it's, it's, it's vulnerable and it's, it's embarrassing, you know, it's kind of, but it's funny. It's, it's fun too, you know, but like those cats were having the time of their life too. Like, and, and, and it was, we, we, did have the, we did have that experience of, cause you know, you and I also bring in and like set the space and we're burning sage and we're I mean, you're, we, we got. We got it all. got, there's, there's, you you go through those waves and you're feeling the spiritual kind of thing. You're feeling how deeply connected and the, the, the, the oneness of everything. And you kind of feel like you're getting it and you're kind of digging into your own self and you're digging into the whole thing. And also silliness and like just being like, it's just a cosmic joke. it's just all like, all of that was happening, you know, and those dudes didn't expect that. And they didn't. When we were first setting up like some of our altar kind of stuff, they were just like, OK, what's going on here? Like, you guys saying of like a Hindu? They didn't know what the hell was going on. But like. our, our altars have gotten so like they've grown over the last year. mean, so they're no joke when we set up the altar, I mean, we're setting up altars and they're yeah. Well, it it whatever, you know, it brings the point of the reason I'm trying to even tell this is because it does bring. Like they have grown and we've gotten like it's it's you don't always see the summation of like the the the research you've done, the experience, the practice, the habits you formed, the changes in your like Like even physically, like the changes in your, in your body, the changes in your, in your, your face, the way you look, the way you speak. Like honestly, like I, it gets easy to like kind of dismiss that type of stuff. You know, with the books we've read, the experience we've had with other people, the things we've learned. And then you see it compared against someone who's like, Hey, I want this. I love what you're into. I love what you're up to. And I want you to, I feel left behind. Like I want to play. I want to. play in the same space that you're playing in. Like I want to experience what you've experienced. want, like, I, know, these guys were saying like, I want some happiness. Like I want something to fill a life and they did, but by, but by watching them and then watching you and I, I was like, wow, that used to be me and Mike. And it's people who are, you know, not consciously being like, you know, I, I'm, not very much into the whole, like I did mushrooms one time and now I'm going to become like a. mushroom guide and I'm going to become a guru and I'm going to become a shaman. I'm not really into that shit, but it does help when you're sailing some pretty, uh, you know, some pretty rugged waters. does help to have some people that have sailed those seas. You know, it's, it's, it's very interesting. I don't know. I was having like a real full circle moment. don't know how you were feeling about that thing. No same. It was, it was a reminder of how much I've changed and shifted over and deepened into myself. Um, even since we, you when we started this podcast, like the last five years have been crazy wild and like, we were even beginning to re yeah. Um, and I was even thinking about it this week. this week, I, you know, You were talking about being in an in-between land. I kind of feel like that. I maybe I always feel like this in life, but I feel like there's definitely, I mean, I'm definitely in some transitional moments in life, you know, um, end of a marriage, the, like this transition where I'm finishing up my PhD. Do I want to explore that for my career? Do I want to stay in the corporate world, but just have the PhD is kind of like. Whatever, do I, you know, the music that we're creating, um, the podcast, there's just a lot of. things I'm doing, but all of it's just kind of like stuff I'm, know, I guess it's like all things I enjoy doing, but you know, if someone, if someone asked me, like what's, and we get this, we get asked this a lot. What's the, what's the end goal of the podcast? What's the end goal of making an album? What's the end goal of your PhD? Where are you going in your work career? I'm like, I don't. No, where are you going in your relationship life? I'm in this in between land. And it was really hitting me this week. And, and then, you know, I would, picked up the guitar and was playing and you know, sometimes like even this last week, there's been this weird relationship with music I've had where sometimes I haven't wanted to play the guitar or it's been like, uh, I've been like down on myself with it. Um, but it was just this thing of like, I don't know. mean, I heard like an intuitive kind of thing of like, but look who you're becoming, you know, don't focus on where you're going or what this is, but just deepen more into what whatever you're becoming or what you're remembering, a remember like a more about the look, look, look, look how far you've come and focus on you being more you and don't worry about So I guess it's a shift from doing or what like I'm putting out and more like what I'm deepening into and shift in focus to that. And that helped me kind of settle down and be like, okay, I'm good. And I'm still doing, I'm still uh unfolding my wings in a way or like, and it's okay to be in that process. Cause that artistic process is messy and there's filled with all sorts of shit comes up of self doubt um and anything from the, it starts coming out and it's like working with this, I don't know, you know what I mean. Well, I do know what you mean. And I think it's kind of a cool thing that's changed because it's, it's, it's helped me with clarification. in my downtime, like I, know, as you know, you and I have had some pretty rough, we had a rough summer, I guess is what I would try to say. Um, but the, the clarification of, you know, this thing of like, what's the end game? What's the. What's the goal? Do you know what I mean? Like, like having a goal is, is. it says it's recording on my end. Should I... Oh, well, listeners, we'll see what happens here. Mike's doing his technical wizardry in the background. And I'm just sitting here looking at a screen of my face, waiting for Mike. I love you, I love you, I love you. If you're listening. Okay, let me just stop it. So we got, it's totally fine. We just got a little derailed there uh with some technical issues, but like the point you were making about having this idea of like, what's the end, what's the end game? What's your intentions? What's your result? I'm starting to find out that like for a lot of things in my life, it's okay for the practice to be the point. Mm-hmm. Like, like, like no one says to a flower, what's the end game? A flower is, is seeded and it grows and it blooms and it dies. And then that's the end of the flower. And maybe it's used for a funeral arrangement or maybe it's used to send a loved one flowers. Maybe it's just there in the wild. mean, a flower doesn't have like a corporate goals and strategic plans. Do know what I mean? And I'm starting to realize that that's really, that's really like an okay thing. That's, that's, that's, that's been something that I've had to like really my, my sort of like goal oriented, like doer achiever kind of like, uh, the part of me that wants to do those things. It's like, Oh, the, the act of doing the, the, the practice of becoming is the point. Like, yeah, if you line up for a hundred meter dash at the Olympics. You, the end result is to try to run to the finish line faster than everybody else is running against you. Right. Or maybe even more esoterically, like it's the goal is to run the fastest time you've ever run. Like you're doing against yourself, right? It's like self-improvement and that kind of stuff. know, corporate goals, uh strategic plans, uh, sitting down with your kids and talking about their futures, uh, you know, starting a new hobby, starting a new. Like everything can be trying to lose some weight, trying to get into some, all of that can be like, think really unsatisfying and unfulfilling if it's done with this sort of weird, um like achieve at all costs, grow, capitalize, profit off of and move to the next thing. That's soul sucking a little bit because that's found everywhere. The, the, proof of that is, is, nothing has changed about the, about the percentage of kids that become professional athletes, uh, in America, nothing has changed over, over the last 40 years, but as far as like the percentage of kids that are kids doing a sport and then become adult humans doing that sport for, for money, what has changed is the amount of money and time and pressure that is poured into kids when they're children to steal their childhood in order to make them play baseball year round or make them play, you know, football, basketball year round. Golf is a big one. You know, it's just, it's very, it's a very strange thing to have to have to think everything has to have like a, a really well, like a Gantt chart. You know, like you're doing project management, you know, like life, life is not a Gantt chart. You know, it's not, life is not like, I'm going to, I'm going to do Mormonism until my early thirties. And then there's going to be some overlap on my little Gantt chart for everybody. If everybody out there is, is picturing a Gantt chart, you know, you have to have, you have to have your line items and they have to overlap. And then you have to know the time that it'll take for everything to take, you know, so it ends when you want the project to be completed. So there's gonna be some overlap in my doing the Mormon thing with my feeling like there's something more out there. And the feeling like there's something more out there will lead me to alcohol and alcohol will lead me to drugs and drugs will lead me to self awareness and realization and like feeling like I can pick up a guitar and write a song and play music and have a podcast. None of this is part of my... visualizing the Gantt chart of your life right now. Yeah, I fucking love it. is so silly. Like, honestly, like there's a, there's a, there's something real here that I'm, that I'm talking about of like a lot of like that, that, that sense of feeling unfulfilled and dissatisfied comes from this constant inculcation in our culture, in our society that it all needs to lead to something. You have to get this, this marriage going because it has to lead to this real big payoff. Uh, you know, that's a hallmark movie moment when you're 65 years old and you got your whole family in for like a home alone type style of Christmas. That does, that doesn't happen though. Uh, you gotta lead school and getting your education and gaining the things that you want to do to lead to your career. Well, people change careers in the middle of their life all the time and, and, and people's careers can be unsatisfying and unfulfilling. They don't get to where they want to go. And, and this, this idea of like, storing up today for what happens in heaven at the end, you know, after you die, it's just, it's, all based on this, accomplishment achievement, like get to the point of a thing rather than just enjoy the practice and experience of life. And, you know, not to go too far to that, that direction of just like, you know, move like a jellyfish, like just roll with the tides. Like there's you're also, you know, we talked about like, This was a big one for me actually in the, in the uh last ceremony we did. Like I was quoting to you the words to, um, La Bamba, right? The song La Bamba. There's a, there's words in that song that go, uh, you know, soy marinero, you know, soy marinero, soy Capitan, soy Capitan, soy Capitan. He's saying I'm not, I'm not just a sailor. I'm the motherfucking captain of my ship, which I love by the way. And so as. I mean, when you were telling me that, I'm like, oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess. like, it's, know that's such an obvious thing, but it's been such a uh game changer for me in my life of like, okay, yeah, go with the flow, ride the waves, roll with it, do the thing. But also I'm captaining my own ship and ain't nobody else telling me to hoist the main sail or, you know, cut my jib. Like I don't, I give a, I, I'm, the captain of this motherfucker. And everybody else is the captain of their own thing. You know what I'm saying? And so for me, it's like, you know, God, I don't know how I even got off this tangent. Cause you were talking about like, Oh, what do you want from the podcast? What do you want from music, making an album? What do you want from writing new songs? What do you want from? Right. It's like, I don't want, I don't want anything other than the thing. Like what do you want from the podcast? The podcast is the answer to that question. What do I want from it? I'm getting it. get this awesome opportunity to sort of like work out what I'm kind of dealing with in my life with my best friend. It's a little less frequently than we used to. We used to be pretty like militant about doing it weekly. I think it's going to ebb and flow. think we're going to hit a, I think we're going to do more now. It's just, it's, it's ebbed and flowed with like our own personal life. And that's one of the things I've loved about us in this podcast journey, you know, you know, we still get people who ask us about like, uh, the direction we took a few years ago when like with Shalice and all that. And I was reflecting on that this week with that, um, because I remember, you know, there was a time three years ago where I was feeling this pressure to grow the podcast. Like put it out there, get it out, this, this. And then when we, and I wasn't, I wasn't in a good mental space. It wasn't fun for me anymore. and it felt, um, it wasn't just the pressure of growth or success in that way. It was a, don't want to. I want to get back to the intention of it. And I remember when we did make the switch for the first time in a year or so, I was not checking the download numbers. And it was such a relief, such a relief to not have to care, not to care the number of Instagram followers or that it was like, my gosh, I can just get back to doing what I love doing. or commenting on, remember like the pressure to like respond to like an instant message or like a comment on Instagram to be like, we love you, you're awesome. It's like, I don't know. I'm trying my best. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail or please keep going. No, that's spot on or like to um advertise it. I don't know. It just took that pressure off of me. And I was thinking about this week because I think now in thinking of it in terms of like music, you know, um I think I've felt one, I really do want to share our songs. Like, I think part of my uh writer's block a little bit lately is maybe some of like universe being like, okay, I mean, yeah, you probably have more songs in you. But if you're not sharing them, like, I'm not going to give you more, you know. But no, but it was but this thing of like, okay. I think maybe I've been putting some pressure on myself. Musically, too, of like, getting it out there, what people are going to think, you know, is it going to be successful. And it's just like, just be in the music just deepen into your musicality, you know, I've been practicing more now with a metronome. I've been trying to like, just seeing different emotions and just play with things and just be in that space of like, I don't know how this is all unfolding. um But I'm just going to keep doing what I feel like putting it putting the intention in the moment of like an of an energy of a feeling of like, just being, you know, almost like planting seeds in a way but like and not knowing how they're going to grow like Johnny Appleseed, just going around just spreading seed. Think of that intentionality of like Johnny, just like, oh, I'm just going to go spread and now we have apples because of him ever. Exactly. Thank you, Johnny. Thank you, Jonathan Appleseed. uh So to that point, you and I, it's one of those things of like, I don't even know, like maybe it's priority or maybe it's self belief or maybe, I don't know what it is, but we've been talking about like doing, sharing our music. Like to me, sharing our music is better in the form of playing it live for people. m the best way. Sending it out, sending it out on a, we've had a couple of files that we've sent out to a few people. I love that too. That's so fun. And I'd love to do that on a larger scale. That's really cool. But the, the, the, place that I feel, and this is so crazy because when we first started doing this, this was the place I felt the least comfortable, but the place I feel the most comfortable now is sharing my music live with people and being like, Hey, check this out. This song's dope as shit. Like we're going to do it and please sing along and clap. You grab a shaker, everybody. And that, that, you know, that, that comes with, you know, time and practice and, and, know, increased skill, but we've kind of been talking about doing another live show. were doing like, we were going in a direction of like, Hey, we're going to do more and more live shows. Then we just kind of stopped. And there was no reason for it. We just stopped because we were just like, Oh, we got life things to take care of and shit's going on and whatever. But states. We, and we live in different States and our, our, our drummer lives in Salt Lake. And sometimes we use a drummer from LA and sometimes we don't have like a real bassist. Sometimes we have a bass. It's like we, there are reasons and they're good enough reasons, but I would love to, I would love to share music with people. Cause I love the, you know, back to that, that guy that you went and saw that, and then you, and then the dude was like, it was like a pillar of light. You guys were having like an evangelical sort of like a conversion. Yeah, dude, I love that shit. And I want I want to do that. Like that's that's that's that's the thing I that that's maybe if we're talking about like end result or goals, I mean, that's that always feels like a that always feels like a highlight for me, but it never feels like the end to me. Do you know what mean? Like the other night. And it comes in waves to the other night, I was like suddenly feeling it and it was kind of getting late. But I was really in like a creative zone and I was just sitting out, I was just sitting out there playing my guitar and kind of singing to myself and just making jotting down notes and stuff like that. And my wife was like, Hey, I'm going to bed. I just was like, I, there's no place, bed sounds great. Like I would love to go to sleep right now, but there's, there's no feeling better than the feeling I'm having right now where there's just like, it's on the tip of my tongue. Like something is coming through something really cool, something that's making me feel alive. And I'm feeling that like burning of the bosom. I'm feeling that whatever. And something's coming through. So I stayed up late. was like, I got it. I got to just keep listening for it and seeing what's going on. And I was happy that I did. And then I I wasn't doing that to like have a purpose. wasn't like, okay, what, what are my goals tonight? When I sit down to pick up my guitar? No, it ended up just turning on me where I was like, Oh, instead of playing for an hour, I played for four hours because I was like, something's up, something's happening. And then we can share it. You and I can share that later and it doesn't have to be like, what's your deadline? What's your, what are, what are your key milestones? What are your key metrics? How are you quantifying this? That's counter. I guess that's how I'm feeling about life right now. I'm just like, dude, Mike, we can just, we can just like, just like shotgun come out our art. I mean, I'm like making the motion of like the jerk off motion, but like we can, we can, we can art all over the place and we don't have like a thing that's like, This is how this is why you're arting. This is why you're doing art. No, we're doing art for the art itself. That's the way. And I think it's hard for me because it's such a different paradigm shift on how I've been taught. mean, we asked the question how, what I miss about, you know, being Mormon and Republican and everything and having all the answers is a complete shift to where it's like, I don't have the answers. And to be okay in just the journey of, look, I'm in a weird in-between in all sorts of places. And okay, I'm just going to be in the in-between. Um, and, but it doesn't mean I can't enjoy this in between space. mean, that's the thing. Maybe enjoy being. Maybe five years from now, I'm going to be like, man, wasn't it nice when I just like, was in that zone of like, okay, no pressure, uh, no pressure artistically dissertation wise, whatever, other than whatever pressure I was putting on it. And. You know. Fuck it, be here now, whatever. Be here now. Bullshit. All that crap. Oh, you know, having said everything that we've said, it would be nice to like scratch a few things off the old list, right? Like, like there's a lot, there's a lot of like items that we could put a check mark next to that we just haven't like finishing an album would be a cool thing to say. Like check mark. Like here you go kids. Here you go. My children for here you go. Progeny enjoy, enjoy the fucking tunes. Well, plus like, you know, I'm meeting a lot of musicians and people out here in LA and everyone's like, oh, what's your project? Bombadilio. oh What, you know, and they talk about that and like, can I listen to you somewhere? Nope. You know. you can go watch Doug do a cover of a Bee Gees song on TikTok if you want to check out Bombadilio. But other than that, I don't know. That's funny. What else? I don't know, maybe this is it, I don't know. Anything else? I mean, I guess we've gone about an hour. I did all of the talking today, Mike, I'm sorry. You always feel that way, but what are you talking about? This was a... I always feel that way and then I listen back and I'm like, yeah, I did interrupt Mike and do all the talking. What the fuck, man? Am I going down the wrong paths? No, this is the path I wanted to go. We just talked about there's no wrong path. uh shut up, dude, stop talking so much, bro. Let Mike, let Mike take the wheel. No, I think we've always had a good flow, man, about like knowing when to jump in, knowing when to... We got a good Yin-Yang going. We've always had that going. It's always been us. That's true, we do have a good yin and yang. Huh. All right. Well, let's call it there. Let's record again this week. Let's do another one. Let's drop another one on these motherfuckers. let's do it. I'm down. Okay.