Waves of Grief (#227)

Mike and Doug talk about grief. After the sudden loss of a close friend, the conversation turns to the strange waves that follow death—the contractions of sadness, memory, anger, and love that move through the body if you let them. They reflect on childhood encounters with death, the different ways people grieve, and how tools like therapy, psychedelics, meditation, and music have changed their relationship to loss. Rather than something to avoid or numb, grief becomes something to ride—painful, yes, but also strangely beautiful. A conversation about loss, the people we carry with us, and the quiet trust that life keeps moving, even after death. 

Ex-Mormons on Psychedelics Panel Discussion - Wed, March 18 @ 12pm MT

A free online event discussing the rise of psychedelics in Utah, especially among ex-Mormons, and the benefits and risks of this phenomenon

This is a Psychedelic Safety Seminar organized by the Challenging Psychedelic Experiences Project

This 90-minute seminar will explore the topic of psychedelic usage among Mormons, ex-Mormons and others in Utah. We'll look at how some Mormons are taking psychedelics and leaving the church, some are taking psychedelics and staying in the church, the rise of psychedelic churches in Utah, the healing benefits some ex-Mormons are finding in psychedelics, and also the risk of psychedelic predators in Utah's wellness scene. Plus whatever else the participants and audience want to discuss.

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Transcript

1:28

and it's just you and me, I do try to like gussy up my hair a little bit just for you. I just want... I haven't put on my cool shirt that we got together. Well, what do mean? You're wearing the cool shirt. Oh, you even, I thought you said I haven't put on, you said I even put it on. Yeah, dude, that shirt is. out for a little bit tonight, so that's why I put it on too. But I also dressed up for you. yeah. Dude, you that shirt. I honestly, it's the stallions like that. Mike, let me ask you this question and you don't have to reveal anything. You don't have to answer it. Do do people just go wild for you when they see you? Because first of all, you're just this guy, but then they see you and you get this like shirt and you're cool and you're kind of like this hip guy that's an artist and you're like sensitive. Does the world is the world just putty in your hands, Mike? They, so I mean, when I'm like checking out at a bar or what do call it? Closing my tab at a bar. And I'll have to say my last name. Oh, I don't want to say my last name on the podcast. Nevermind, I can't tell this story. but you know, you are a stallion is what it comes down to, right? a stallion. And yeah. Yeah, it's a good looking, can I just tell you something uh that's been driving me crazy? You know how like every time we record, I am fiddling around with trying to make my sound sound better? I'm at my wits end, dude. Like our last episode, first of all. Do you notice how clicking the mute button on your mic picks up in the fucking recording and like, you can hear. Yeah, I mean, it does a lot. I it probably was. don't know. I hear it all the time when we do it. But it usually mutes it a little bit. But what I've started doing ever since that one episode where we were were you saying a song and then I released it and I realized like the the noise cancellation like blocked out the song. I started to do a different thing where like. Riverside does these automatic filters and I've been bypassing them because I feel like it sounds more real and authentic, but it does also pick up all the little clicky, clicky clocks, you know. Well, so I stop. Yes, I hear you. And it does pick up a lot of the clickety clacks. So today, when I need to mute, I'm going to use the digital mute button on Riverside instead of my physical mute button on my microphone. That's what I'm going to do. okay, I'm gonna do that. I'll do that as well. Where is that button? I see it right there. Mike. Yeah, not not not not your name Mike, but click Mike as in microphone. It says Mike. good thing I went with Miguel again. I know, right? I think that you've got this other persona. How is persona de Miguel? He Let's speak Portuguese! He oh is very... cool. Yeah. Todos. Yeah, see. Tell us those guys. Miguel is el hombre de playa. Is that something? Could you say that? I don't know. The man of the beach. The man of the beach kind of thing. I'm making that up. You can't say that in English either, but I'm saying it in both English and Spanish. I am. I'm a man of the beach, but I, you know, I've got some mountain man in me too. I get torn between the beach and the mountains. You ride that line well. am, I mean, as you know, I just spent three hours moving snow. I am 100 % in the camp of mountain man. Yeah, I was about to say, well, you know, when you got out here like tis the season, but it's kind of not the season anymore, is it? Well, I've kind you know, it's funny. We were talking about this with a couple of friends. Like we've had such a mild, such a dry winter. Jesus Christ, dude. Our podcast is now about, is now about weather. Remember how every week we have like a new theme that our podcast has become. Sometimes it's going to become Doug's fascination with pickleball. Sometimes it's like the life and times of, of, of Mike and Doug. This week it's weather talk with Mike and Doug. Go ahead. So anyway. I was not surprised by this. I just got two feet of snow in the last 24 hours though, and so I didn't move all that. And that took me a long time. Can we just talk about weather and birds? Yeah, I would love to talk. Honestly, I would love to talk about weather and birds. I'm at that age when people are like, well, I just don't love, I just don't love, what do you call it? um Small talk. People talk about weather. You know what? I love talking about the weather and birds. Those are my favorite topics. m It's funny, my dad was like, um, when growing up and he would always just be like, walk out, think a storm's coming. And he'd like to track all the storms, you know? And I just feel like I'm kind of getting the same way. It's just the rite of passage, I guess. I did wake up in the middle of the night to go check out the blood moon and it was like cloudy in LA. So I got in my car at 3.30 AM and drove to where I could finally find it. I wanted to see it. Whoa, so how far did you drive? Like a 10 minute drive until I could, until the clouds parted. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, it is. There's Bloodman. And I watched it for a while. Then I came going back to bed and that was, yeah. I'm gonna, so the opposite of that, like that's a pretty cool thing. Like I'm getting up in the middle of night and I'm driving to see the blood moon. It's 3.30 AM. I'm in LA. I'm the coolest motherfucker in town. Like that's a cool thing. I'm gonna tell you the opposite of that. You ready? Yesterday I was sitting in some like hot pots or whatever people call like hot springs, you know? Yeah. And I was just sitting there enjoying myself and kind of like zoning out and looking at the sky. And I just started being like, boy, I don't like the looks of those clouds. This looks like a big old snowstorm rolling in. And I was right. So by my dorky little, my dorky little self was like, hip was like fretting over this looks like it's going to be a big old juicy snowstorm. And then it was, and I dealt with it. That's the end of my story. But speaking of birds, I sent you this picture of the crows. The crows are meeting again, Where were we when we sang that, when we started just making up that, come on down to the mud a crow tree. Where were we? Do you remember? there. We're in your neck of the woods. Yeah, and you're like, there's something going on with those crows. And I was like, I agree. There's a crow tree by my house, the murder crow tree. And they get together and they scheme. And it happened all during COVID. But I haven't seen it in a couple of years. But lo and behold, last Saturday, they were all gathering at the tree. Talking about something, scheming up something. So I don't know what that means for humanity, but... I've been keeping my eyes on the crows, um Low these many years and the crows are, they're evolving. my God. What is this? What is our podcast? don't know. But the reason I'm laughing is because of how interested I am in it. It's so funny. So we were with friends last night and my wife was telling people, because some of the people used to be in our ward and we were out having like some drinks and they were kind of talking about, man, Doug's the reason I went to gospel. I learned more about, know, they were just They were complimenting my gospel doctrine class teaching skills, you know? And my wife was kind of like jokingly, she was like, yeah, he's got more, he knows more scriptures than anybody. She goes, I don't know why he knows the scriptures. He doesn't believe in them and doesn't care, but he knows them. And so I had to like, well, that sounded like a humble brag. I'm not trying to humble brag people. just, I used to be really into those scriptures. That's the point. But, um, so I had to make the joke and it's funny that it's coming around. I was like, well, I just want you all to know that I am slowly and steadily trying to eliminate my scripture knowledge out of my brain, just slowly let it leak out and replace it with bird knowledge. So it's so funny that you're bringing that up. Cause that's what I said to this group of people. I like, I'm just, I can't explain it. I don't know how to tell you. I just am really. Are we really getting into birds? I don't know, I guess I'm old, I don't know. I guess we're old man. uh I haven't filmed it lately with that. I mean not to do a hard segue but like we're getting. do, I'll, I'll give a soft segue. We are getting old and I have to, I was, I was telling you this. I have been feeling more energetic in the last couple of months than I have for years. Right. I've just kind of come through on the other side of whatever the health things I was dealing with. Well, I, I feel like I kind of know. mean, I did a whole thing about it, but, um, so I've been like feeling a lot of energy and yet. We keep, you and I both keep getting reminders that time is undefeated, you know, that, that, that mortality is a real thing and, and, and we can't escape it and we can't parade away or we can't like just, you know, get, just feel like, if we're righteous enough, then someday we can hope for a better thing or whatever. Like very right here and now very present we're dealing with. the people we love are, I mean, dying. uh Is that the worst way I could have possibly said that? It was funny, um I was talking to someone the other day, who was I talking to? Yeah, people we love are dying. And I'm like, am I at that age where people start dying a lot? And I don't think I am, but it's happening. I don't think that's supposed to happen at your 40s. So yeah, I mean, I just lost a friend, another good friend, and he was 42. Friend of the podcast. He was always very supportive. He would send us, he would chat with us. mean, obviously you and him are friends, but he would send you things. I mean, he would chat with me. I'm friend in law, I know him. Sad stuff, man. How are you, um You know, I've been, I mean, it's been wave after wave. It's been a bunch of waves, right? Again. And I called you that night and I was like, I don't think, I don't want to do this again. I don't want to, it's almost like I don't want to go through these contractions again. know, um I felt like I just did with my cousin a few years ago and I did with my marriage and I didn't want to do it again. um and And yet we were talking about this a couple of days ago, but like, if anything, over the last five, six years, we've been doing the podcast. And since we did our first mushroom journey, since I started doing therapy and since we started, you know, getting into mindfulness meditation, grief, um, The grieving process has changed for me in such a better way. Like, I don't... Like I voiced that to you that night, but then I went home and went to my room lit some candles and played music all night and cried and laughed and would feel a wave coming on. um and let the wave pass through. And I mean, I guess it does kind of feel like contractions, you know, not that I know what contractions feel like, but I witnessed them, right? Where it's like, all of a sudden the contraction comes on. And if you let it come through and pass through, you might cry really hard for a couple of minutes and then it passes. And then the next one might hit in a couple of minutes. The next one might hit in the, you know, I think it's almost like, the opposite of birth contractions where it feels like they get farther apart over time instead of closer together, know? Right? But I went through them and so I've had like a week of that. It was a week ago today, I guess, that I learned that he died. And I was just talking to him. Like, you know, it one of those things where he and I had been chatting a lot that week. We'd both been watching A of the Seven Kingdoms and both been watching Industry. So he called me, we talked that night on Sunday night after the Night of the Seven Kingdoms finale and then on Monday. um and then to get the text on Thursday. you know, it's been, so it's been a week. It's been a week, I guess. was a long way of responding to your question on how I'm doing, you know? Well, if I could just reflect it back, I really admire the way that you lean into and accept the grieving process. And I think that's a different thing, and it's something that comes from your own work, your practice. I guess your practice that you do. And it's been... just serendipitous, serendipitous is the wrong word. It's just been. parallel to a sort of tragedy in the vicinity of my life where it's very Mormon. And, you know, I'm watching the way people grieve. Everybody experiences grief differently. I would never take away from anyone's grief because it's a real thing and people just have different tools um by which to use that or by which to experience that grief. Um, but your, your comparison to, um, contractions during the birthing process is pretty interesting because it's like, the contractions is going to come like you and I are, this is what the world needs, right? Is two white guys with a podcast talking about the birthing process. That's what the world is looking for is like, how, how can we really understand child? Like, how can we really get into labor? How can we really understand better labor? But what I'm trying to say is. A person who is going through the birthing process cannot escape those contractions. They are going to come to try to like avoid them, to try to dodge them, to try to escape them is not, it's a fool's errand. It's not going to happen. But learning to ride those waves, learning to breathe with those, learning to, you know, I remember um like the rocking side to side or the back and forth or the different squat, the different positions uh that my wife, you know, three kids, my wife became an expert at doing that kind of stuff and just watching that, just being fascinated. And it's really the same with that grief. Again, everyone out there, I am not comparing the pain of childbirth. anything. It's something that me as a human man cannot even fathom. But I am very interested in this comparison that you're making, Mike, because you're leaning into it. I got to witness that in you, of you just leaning into like, I'm having a big grief come through here and let me just lean into this and let me use my tools and ride those waves and let me see what it's been inspiring to me. If anybody made anything out of that gobbledygook metaphor that I just used. I'm really trying to watching the grieving process in uh competing uh people in my life, in friendships in my life, it's been very uh sort of like, I don't even want to say the word admirable, Mike, because that's kind of attaching a really weird word to it. It's been pretty uh revelatory, I guess. um I do like what you're saying with that because I do think it's like the waves coming and you can't choose whether or not the waves coming but you can choose how to how you write it how you experience it and there's something about letting your heart just like break open when it needs to if anger comes up finding a way to get the anger out um And really, you know, it was Syrian Rue Mimosa that really taught me to begin with, you know, it's one of these things about you kind of almost like learn it during the psychedelic experience, but then you afterwards in the integration, it's like, okay, now off the medicine, how can I get back to that? Where it was. Cause I've been reminded so many times, you know, if we go back and listen to that Syrian Rue Mimosa episode, that second day, uh, or maybe it was the first day. don't remember. And that was right after my, that was three years ago, when after my cousin died. And I was going through the grieving process of that. Yeah. The week, within the week, I almost, I almost didn't do the ceremony. In fact, in hindsight, I almost wonder if I should have, but I did it. So I did it. um but during that ceremony, it was, I just, the whole thing was, yeah, you can, you can purge it out right now. You can cry it out. You can, or you can dance it out. You can sing it out if you want to. And I, that whole night, I thought I'd think, I don't think I stopped singing. Um, and so that came back to me, you know, I'm glad I talked to you that night. And then I went and just played the guitar all night and just let them, and that's what I've been doing all week. And I feel like as the week's gone by, like the contractions are getting farther and farther apart. and there's a beauty there. You know, death... I death is fucking awful. Yes, that is strange. is, it is weird, isn't it? It's a... It's like a strange concept. What was your first experience with it? Do you remember? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to interrupt your, you're kind of in on a roll here. Do you me to? I do, I'm curious, because I want to talk about this. Okay, well, yeah, guess I can probably, I think I can probably talk about it. Gosh, I wish we had my brother here. He's involved in this. He and were talking about this the other day that we had a lot of weird, like when he and I get start comparing notes, we sometimes feel like we grew up in a Stephen King town. know, we're like kids were disappearing and like getting like kidnapped and there's like a, there was like a pretty famous kid kidnapped kid in my neighborhood. And then that kid accidentally committed suicide. And then a couple of kids did commit suicide. And then another kid was hit by a train and then a second kid was hit by a train. Like I had some really weird death. But the one that is like my first memory of death, my flagship, my benchmark, my watershed moment of remembering death. is we were getting ready to go, we were just getting ready to leave the house um to go shop for our Halloween costumes. And I would have been eight years old, seven, eight years old, eight years old. And phone rings, my mom answers it, starts off with friendly sort of like greetings. My mom, It suddenly melts down into tears. My dad turns to my brother and tells us to leave the room, to my room and wait instantly just to go. Right? So we go into my room and we're kind sitting there and Adam who's been on the podcast, he's like, what's going on here? He's six. And I'm like, well, I think grandma died. and I remember telling, it's so funny. I'd love to have him on to talk about this story. I said to him, so when we go back out there and they tell us we got to be super sad for mom. I'm like, okay, yeah. So sure enough, whatever, an amount of time goes by and then my dad comes and gets us and invites us into, they were in their bedroom. They sit us down and they're like, we have some really bad news to tell you guys. And they tell us that your grandmother died. And so we leaned forward and hugged our parents and cried to them. I remember, the reason this memory is so strong for me is I remember that I was doing that for my mom. Like that my little brain was not feeling the expected. level of sadness for that event of death. didn't make sense to me. I don't know. I can't explain it. I was eight. I don't have an explanation. I'm not going to try to defend that. But I just, I wasn't feeling that sadness, but I was feeling like I know I got to show up for my mother. And I don't know, man. And then after that, going through the different deaths, I mean, you know this, Mike, that my best friend died when I was... uh Yeah. So my best friend died right before I got home from my mission and, and, uh and I don't know. So my experience with death has always just been like, guess I disassociate or I guess I get like real contemplative or, or, or distant or numb perhaps. I, that, that frankly, this is, I feel like I'm talking too much and I'm going to turn it back over to you, but like, this is one of the reasons that I say very sincerely to you that watching you go through the grieving process has been very um inspirational to me. Fucking the words are not coming, but you see what I'm saying. Yeah, and I appreciate you saying that. you know, in the vein of like, we're all walking each other home. There were a couple moments where you've taught me with the when your dog died, and you talked about that experience. And then you had a family member die uh last year or so. And uh one of your favorite songs, my favorite song of yours, I meant to say. Yeah. thing. Yeah, that's crazy. Think about that. that. And I, yeah, the way you used music to not only just playing music, but like actually bringing out a song through it was good with just, yeah. And I asked about that first death experience. I was about a similar age. was probably eight or nine years old. yeah. And my, My parents were out, they were probably out on a date night or something. And we were home and someone called to tell us that our cousin had died. And he was a cousin that was probably like 12 years older than me or so. Or maybe an older, because I was nine. He was probably like 15 years older than me because he had just recently gotten married. His wife was pregnant, like seven months pregnant with their first child. And it was just a tragic thing. was like um the vents just started, the heater blew out carbon monoxide and he was the only one home, you know? And I remember like waiting at the top of the stairs for when my parents were walking in and they were saying goodbye to their friends at the door and they saw our faces and their friends like, what's happened? And my parents kind of made a joke about like, Oh, probably. You know, someone got spooked or I don't know what they said. Maybe someone's had a nightmare. I don't know, but they made some joke about it. But then as soon as you know, the door shut, we told my dad and It was on my dad's side. My dad was really close to this nephew of his because they were they weren't super far apart in age. My dad and him, you know, because he was older. And I just remember the look on my dad's face, like the color went out of it and he just was in complete shock as you would be. um And then I remember him talking on the phone that night. And then I remember the funeral and how awful it was. It was just. such an awful feeling and then you're I'm going to the viewing and you're seeing his body and it looks so different and the sickly sweet smell of all the flowers Yeah. And, um you know, and then after that, like, I had a grandpa die who's close to me. And then, you know, there'd be those kids who would die at school, you know, like a sledding accident or one died like pal or car accidents, you know, our, our, neighborhood was pretty snake bitten in a way. Like both of my next door neighbors lost, one lost two kids to a car accident and one lost a child to a car accident. And then I'll cross the street. mean, a friend of mine, a good friend of mine from that neighborhood, we were reminiscing about that. I don't know. Yeah. Remembering that and just like how many deaths there were like that just in that area. But anytime it happened, it was just like this worst feeling. Awful. I couldn't, know, It would just linger. Linger for days, weeks, you know. oh Yeah. And I bring that up because I feel like. It's shifted for me now in the last few years where... I don't feel that aspect of it. And maybe at the beginning, maybe the initial shock and the first day or two, you know? Yeah, I, yes. Yeah, but then it moves. It's like when you're in it, like things move. You know, I'm just like, I'm just having this thought right now. I'm like, this is, this is going to be like a total, I apologize in advance for kind of how this is like a little bit of a side note thing, but, um, I kind of want to say it. So you described your neighborhood growing up as being snake bit. described my neighborhood growing up as being out of a Stephen King, like a Stephen King town, right? It's probably just like growing up in the eighties and nineties, like, like, so it sounds like, so the. Every once in a while, you know, I don't I really try to avoid I know we were talking about like getting older and like some of the stereotypes that go along with that to start this episode But you every once in a while somebody will be like man, these kids today, they're pretty alright My generation was able to do such-and-such without seat belts and fucking whatever and we made we turned out just fine Every time somebody says that to me or every time I see that or somebody somebody has that as a as a personality type And if you're out there, I'm sorry if this is offensive to you, you need to hear it, guess. And who better to hear it from than Mike and me, me. Who better to hear from than someone who's tall and punchable? Yeah, then a big tall punchable fucking dork. Like, give me all you got, I'll take it. um Every time somebody's like, oh, my generation didn't do any of stuff and we turned out just fine, I wanna be like, couple of things. First of all, a lot of us died. Like, you not remember that things were pretty fucking dangerous? kids were allowed to roam free. Well, yeah, they disappeared and died. I fell in fucking rivers. and canals! I narrowly escaped death a couple of times where I'm like, I probably should have died. And then the other thing, second to the we turned out fine, no, we didn't. No, we fucking didn't. My best friend and I have a podcast about talking about our feelings and doing drugs about it. What do mean we turned out fine? We didn't turn out fine? What do mean? mean, like, and it's always like the person who was always saying that, you're always just like, you, you're the most fucked up person I know. What are you talking about? You turned out fine. Like you're like, you're full of bravado and like, Like, no, you did not. I assure you that you did not turn out fine. And I recommend some therapy about your childhood, frankly. Anyway, sorry to take that little turn, but it just, it just struck me when you said that your neighborhood was snake bit on the, on the, on the, on the tales of me saying that my neighborhood was like a steamy, we're like, Oh, I think that just was the planet earth. Like we were just dying. Things were less safe. But yours definitely feels more Stephen King like. Like weirder things. mean, ours was snake bitten by car crashes and accidents, you know. uh It's strange, man. People dying is just a strange thing. I get it when, you know, when you hear about like, um so and so's grandmother died, she was 95 years old and she was, you they always have some like, she had, she had, you know, cancer and cataracts and she fell, broke her hip. You're just like, yeah, she was 95. She died of being 95 years old. That's where she died. Yeah. But then you hear about like, oh, so-and-so died and they were, first of all, I can't handle the kids dying stuff. I just can't deal with that. But then when you hear about someone dying and they were like 34, and you're like, what? A person died? Why? I hate that. 42 of heart failure Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean... Hey, I'm just going to talk about him for a second, but like he did have the biggest heart. He just would like, he just, yeah. Just giving out love all the time, man. I mean, that's what the theme has been when I've talked to people that knew him this last week is just like, he would hit me up all the time and my, you wouldn't want anyone. There's no one you'd want more in your corner than Dave. Um, And how does he even think of that? Death is weird, man. So, I'm not gonna get into detail about this, but part of the reason why he was calling me those last couple of days is because things were getting a little weird for him. He had some really cool experiences. And when I was talking to him, Doug, it felt like, I almost called you about this, because it felt like the last few times I called him on the phone, it felt like I just, I was completely sober, but it felt like I had taken a half a gram of mushrooms. Yeah, not like a full gram to, you know, I wasn't like tripping, tripping, but you know how like in the little space, yeah. And like, just feels kind of like things feel just kind of like. like the boundary starts feeling a little wobbly between more like, and you kind of just, things just feel deeper and open. Yeah, it kind of felt like that. um To where like, you know, when I got the text from my brother, it was weird because I was, I mean, I'm sure part of me was numbing and shocked, but the other part was like, I fucking knew it. And it's really, really strange. um And it's strange to be like, yeah, that beginning stages of death when you're like, we to like, I, we talked about the night of Southern Kingdoms finale. And then I was watching the industry finale. And those are the two shows we were watching a couple of days ago. And I picked this instinctively picked up my phone and like, where are at right now? And watching it. And I caught myself mid text and You know, just sent the text anyway, but... I you left me on a red, Son of a bitch. on Dave. Mike, tend to attract these big old teddy bears, like these big old lovable teddy bears. Shit. I mean, I'm one. All of the people, as I was saying that, was like, wait a minute here. One thing I've noticed in the last, I guess, 25 years of being in your life is that you just attract these people who... are good at just loving big. Must be you, I don't know. I don't know, something in the water. Something in that Utah water maybe. Probably is. Because I think of Dave, you, Eric, Joel. You know, people who just like love fiercely, you know? Some of your friends who I'm not gonna name, I mean, they're my friends too, but they're like in your neck of the woods. Yeah. eh man. So yeah, that's, uh I don't know what else to say about death, but. um Did you expect that we were gonna, sorry, I dropped that on you. Did you expect that we were gonna talk about? No, mean, knew we had talked about a couple of days ago and so there was part of me that was really wanting to but then again, there's part of me it was like resisting the contraction a little bit. But, uh... Yeah, and one fourth, sorry to get back on it. um just how much music's helped with it all, you know? um So that night I was like, I'm gonna like try to write a song um about it. And I couldn't, I was completely like blocked, right? And you know, whenever you're like, I'm gonna write a song, just never happens. Dude, saying I'm gonna write a song is like, to me, for me, like a death knell on songwriting. So I was scrolling back through the last text that we had exchanged and two days before he died, he'd sent me, he used to send me all these songs on Spotify all the time and a lot of Irish music. And we'd always talk about going to Ireland together. That's what, know, he's like, but one of the last texts I got from him was that he'd sent me like, I think it was like a folk song. Like, what was it? Oh, on the. on the bonnie bonnie banks of Loch Lomond, you know? But it's like, uh yeah, this woman singing it with like this ethereal voice. And he's like, can you imagine when we're in Ireland, the two of us drunk at a pub, both falling in love with the same woman who's serenading us with this song. And I was like. So I started learning that song that night, like I was just I spent the night playing that song over and over again, you know. you dirty dog, I love that so much. He's probably chasing that Irish woman right now. Right. He's probably there. He's just like, I'm going to go first, you know, and I'll meet him there. ah Yeah, maybe that was it. Maybe he said, go see about a girl. Yeah. And then I noticed another text of his just a little bit before, and he was talking about the next season of a night of the seven kingdoms. And he's like, can you imagine like at this type of season. forgot what it was about some storms and I don't know. So I just realized it and then that another one of his texts too, in the last two weeks, he texted me three times with the opening line, can you imagine? I love it. I do love that, And so then the next day I pick up the guitar and the first word I heard was, can you imagine? And then, then I've been working with that on a song. It's just right just sounds. Yeah. saying can you imagine you know what I mean I mean no offense to John Lennon but he doesn't have like he doesn't have a monopoly on like the idea of imagining other things fuck you John Lennon he's like, you know, imagine he, but he kind of tells us what to imagine. One of the cool things about can you imagine, can you imagine is like the versus could be anything. Um, you could have a 50 different verses to it, you know. Yeah, Well, how about just a moment, a pod, a moment of podcast silence for Dave? How about that? Yeah, that's some good, that's good dead air. That's good, I mean, sorry about the use of the phrase dead air, but like, what better way to use, you know what, no, I take back my apology, but what better way to use that phrase? So you've mentioned this a couple of times and you talked about it in our last recording, so this is a change, but it's something that you've talked about, you and Dave were talking about, and you brought it up. So I binged the night of the seven. Kingdoms, a night of the, well, okay, a night of the seven kingdoms. I'm, so I, you know how nowadays you never know how many episodes a thing is gonna be. So I had no clue that the season finale was the season finale. And when it ended, I was like, wait, hold on, what? It's over? What? So I would love for you to walk me through what the hell, Did they complete telling a story? Why they only had like six episodes and they're like 30, 20 minutes long, three minutes long. It's the length of a Lord of the Rings movies longer than... Yeah, can like, you can binge a couple episodes of The Office at the time that it takes to binge a Night of the Seven Kingdoms and it ends and you're like, wait, isn't he going to like grow into the character we keep thinking he is? Like what the hell is going on in that show? Good point. I don't know. I can't tell you other than I loved it. I fucking loved it. It was like the biggest pleasant surprise for me since the maybe they just kind of kind of came out of nowhere for me since like the first season of Stranger Things maybe. Just the first season. Yeah. one of Stranger Things was like a revelation for people. It was just like, whoa, hold on a second. This is like tapping into my nostalgia and it's good writing and it's just like, it's mysterious. So you're, wow, that's a, that's high praise. I mean, I guess I felt that way about Sinners and we've talked about that plenty of times. I'm just, we're a movie, a movie. I'm trying to think of another series. mean, and or, but I'm such a big Star Wars fan. Like, well, I guess I'm a Game of Thrones fan anyway. So I don't know what I'm saying other than I loved it. And, but yeah, it does take an interesting turn midway. And then it's like, and then it just ends. Um, so, okay. There's a couple of things that you said. I know that we're just like, we took, I'm sorry, everybody. did take a hard turn from grief and death, we, am I going to like talking to each other? We're going to talk about a couple of things. So, you know, turn it off if you don't want to hear about it. it's fine. You just brought up sinners. The Oscars were this weekend, right? next weekend. Next. Okay, next weekend. My I was like, good, because I saw the capture. I've been watching the Secret Agent. Okay, yeah, there's two I've got to see. It's nominated for best pic. Every year we try to watch all the movies that are nominated for best picture. That one and a sensitive, it's important, okay. weird for me because like, not going in a tangent, but it was weird because I'm watching it and I can understand Portuguese, but I can't understand Portuguese to be able to watch it without the subtitles, you know? But then I have the subtitles on and it's doing a weird thing with my brain because I'm trying to like, you know, the subtitles don't always match what they're saying. And it's like, I'm trying to, the subtitles are in English. This is in Portuguese and it was like this. I went through like the first 15, 20 minutes of movie almost like not understanding anything with English subtitles on. And I was like, do I need to like just mute this thing or like go to switch to Portuguese subtitles? But I don't know enough Portuguese to even work with Portuguese subtitles. So anyway, my brain adjusted. The end of that story is my brain adjusted and it's been a fucking great movie. So there's another one like a sensitive or a cat. can't. What is it? Sentimental value. Sentimental value, yeah, thank you. So, um it's funny, like just last night, my wife was like, we gotta watch these two movies. So that got us kinda talking about all the other movies that are on the list and Sinners came up because I think one battle after another is probably gonna win, right? Yeah, I think so. um There's been some talk lately, but I haven't heard what's happened to the latest awards, but I think it's going to be one that I'm about to... What's the latest talk been? What's the buzz? Well, about a month ago, people, because of the number of nominations that sinners had, people, there was like some swell of support for sinners. um hope Sinners does win. I honestly, like I love the storytelling in Sinners. It took a turn that I was not expecting from like going to the previews and all that kind of stuff. And like, I mean, the messaging in it is really cool. And it's right up our alley of what we talk about on this podcast, as far as like how, you know, music is kind of like, it's kind of like a melting pot and, and, and bastardized and just kind of, it's kind of shared and taken and stolen from, but like that scene. as a portal between realms, like what we just talking about. Yeah, it's a portal, huh? Yeah, it is. is the language we all speak. um God, dude, I gotta tell you a thing. Oh, Jesus Christ, I've got too many fucking things. So that scene in Sinners when he plays music through ages and culture and time is the best scene in a movie I've ever seen. It's up there with like, I'm trying to even think it's up there with like the You know the scene and good fellow the wonder and good fellows where he goes into the club like it's it's up there with like the Greatest scenes in movie history, so I hope sinners wins the Oscars what I'm trying to say I'm actually written for sinners too. And I also really loved one battle after another. I loved one battle after another. You know, love a... Listen, give me Leonardo DiCaprio. I'll watch everything that dude is in, frankly. You know? uh Dude, I don't know. Okay, I'm just going to tell you this and if it's too much, I'd so be it. uh Speaking of music being the language we all know, we were talking to my dad recently and we were kind of talking about music. And I've kind of talked a little bit in the past about how I had, I didn't really get, didn't. I listened to a lot of music, but I didn't do a lot of music. I didn't have any music. didn't go choir. didn't get it. But I wanted to be in the, I wanted to be in the, and people are always telling me that, Doug, you stole that story from, um, high school musical, but no, my story. I wanted to be in the, um, school musical when I was in high school. But my, my dad was like, no, you're, you're, you're in sport. You you stay in sports. Like you stay in sports, boy. You're a sports guy. And like, you know, the time that we were. that my grandma's singing Christmas songs on Christmas Eve. And my dad turned to me, he was sitting next to me. He's like, why are you singing like that? I'm like singing like what? This is the only way I know what I got self-conscious about how my voice must sound. Anyway, just the other day talking to my dad, we're talking about music and just about like, we were talking about what language we all speak and it's what it means to me. My dad out of nowhere just goes, I gotta tell you. I just didn't really have the appreciation for music that I have now until I was like 60 or something years old. He's like, and something about like you getting into music and writing music, just like unlocked for me how much I actually love music. And I've just been like, he's like, I bought a keyboard and I've been trying to learn. My dad, my cute dad, my cute dad is like, I bought a keyboard. oh my gosh. can't believe how much I love music. And it's just, you know, I discovered it so late in life and I just was like melting to the ground, So. That has to be like the most like precious thing I've ever heard, man. man. It blew my fuzzy socks off. Dude, what was that word we used to say when, yeah, like, how do we say it? Anyway, I'm feeling warmth all over my body right now. I'm the spirit. what is that? What is that phrase? It's like fuzzy warm and warm. There was a word for it though, right? I thought there was a word we kind of started using on the podcast a while ago, whatever it was, it's lost to me now. oh that we used to use? I don't know. But I'm feeling it right now. I'm feeling all, I'm just feeling warm and toasty. I'm the spirit, man. Feeling the spirit. That's why you, that's... nomenclature from our time, so we might as well just use it, right? Yeah. um Because with that Doug, fill in the spirit. I think that's also why, just to kind of weave in death a little bit here again, why I've had a better relationship with death is because I feel like... I don't know what fucking happens after this life. None of us know. We're not going to know. But there's been so many moments in the last six years where I felt life after death. Well said. And so I assume there's some sort of life after this death because like that's just every example I've ever seen ever is that yes, there's death, but there's life after and even that life takes new forms. But because that forms dead and we grieve that, but like. uh So I don't know that there comes a trust with that. That's like. And it relates to feeling the spirit. I've had so many moments of feeling the spirit the last five years too, like multitudes of time than I ever felt. Even though I had, think I did have a few of those moments, like on my mission as a Mormon boy, I had some of those moments where I felt the spirit, but it was kind of like, you you kind of sit in the kid, like the kiddie pool and you're like, yeah, that's kind of fell in the spirit. There's been, you know, you get thrown in fucking ocean. end and it's like, wait, this ain't the deep end, this is the ocean, I don't know what to do. I guess I've got two questions for you left. I know we're running out of time here, but I got two questions for you. The first one is I called you the other night and I said, hey, have you been keeping up with the show Shrinking? And you said you have not. And I told you that we were laying in bed watching an episode and my wife paused it and turned to me and said, this is you and Mike, what the hell's going on here? And then I just told you, that's all I told you. didn't tell you anything about the scene. I didn't tell you what to expect. So my question is, do you know what I'm talking about yet? OK. OK. OK. realized I didn't finish season two. So I've had... So I saw one more episode of season two. just, I didn't want to, yeah. I just realized. And I thought like I only had like, I thought I had 10 episodes. So I thought I had like three more left. But it's 12, yeah. with this thing. used to be, look, man, when we were banging, when it was like Frazier is like 24 episodes, bro, like you had to put in the work. You got, you're filming 24. Yeah. a standard season is 22, but good shows would usually get picked up to 24. It was like a little extra thing, but you knew it was, you know what to expect. Yeah. what? can write it. Listen, I can film eight episodes over the weekend. I don't know what's going to be that good, but nothing else is. So I will catch up before our next recording so we can chat about that. Okay. I'm, just, I can't wait for, you know what, Mike, I just, I'm put it out into the world. can't wait for the text that you send me when you're like, Holy shit. know exactly what she was talking about. That's all I Tracy Tracy told me that she stopped watching shrinking cause she hates it. it's like, yeah. Yeah. Is that through with the therapy in it? or the, or just... uh corny or maybe it's like a, you know, like a, naturally a therapist has to be like watching that just tearing their hair out being like, okay, this is this ethics and it's terrible. So who knows, you know, people like what they like. ah I do love that show though. Same. My next question, you can certainly just say hell no to, but it's a special request. You know what? Yeah. Maybe I should. Well, I'm to ask you anyway. How would you feel about recording a version of you singing that song, that death song that I wrote? Because you're because your version of it is my favorite version, better. And putting it on the end of this episode, how does that sit with you? Is it a little too much? No, I'd love to do that. That would make my day. I love the way you sing that song. my God, Mike, I love the way you sing that song. Yeah, I would love to sing that song. Fuck yes. If you're okay with me covering your song, I'm gonna give you a set. Okay. our, you know, we've, we've talked about this, our song. Yeah, man, I'd be honored. I'd love to. And I think it'd be the perfect way to go out on this one. Okay, awesome. Let's do it. Last thing. Can I make a plug? Unless I'm not last thing last thing I have Yeah, that's the last thing I have. I am complete, as we say. I am complete. What was that app? That was on that one app, Clubhouse. My name is Mike and I am complete. My name is Doug and I'm complete. So I do have one, I do have a plug. Doug's got a plug. I am on a, I am, I am on a panel about, uh, basically harm reduction in the psychedelics space and, uh, specifically about ex Mormons, uh, seeking out psychedelics on the panel is Stephanie, a friend of the podcast. couple other people that I think people are familiar with that I they can go look at the information. It's on March 18th at noon. can if it's cool, Mike, we can put the you can register. can register for this thing. um I'm sorry. I don't have like a code or anything like that. Just register for it if you're interested and we'll put the deets in the show notes. Is that cool? Yep. Perfect. I'm excited for that. That's coming up. Okay, buddy. Love you. Bye.