The New Era of Inclusive Home Construction

I teamed up with Griffin Benton from the Maryland Building Industry Association for a heart-to-heart on the Universal Design and Visitability for Housing Act that's revolutionizing homes in Prince George's County, Maryland. We're marking International Day of Acceptance for Disability by celebrating the strides in inclusivity this legislation promises. Griffin provides an insider's view of the industry's initial hesitations and the ultimate community benefits envisioned. We also navigate the resources available for those adapting to the evolving housing landscape, thanks to organizations like the National Association of Home Builders.

As we anticipate the 2026 mandate transforming housing accessibility standards, our dialogue unpacks the act's details such as zero-step entries and wider doorways. These features signal a future where every home welcomes people with disabilities, aligning with the "visitability" and "universal design" movements. We evaluate the practical implications for homeowners and builders, considering the challenges of waivers and administrative hurdles. Our conversation underscores the importance of such foresight to minimize future retrofitting expenses, crafting an inclusive environment from the ground up.

Finally, we delve into the broader themes of disability and homeownership. I share my own journey, reflecting on the varied economic backgrounds within the disability community that are often overlooked in real estate. We shed light on the significant yet diverse minority that is people with disabilities and their aspirations for homeownership. From appraisals that reflect the value of universal design to the long-term vision for adaptable, aesthetically pleasing homes, this episode is a tribute to the pursuit of an inclusive society. Join us as we champion a future where every door is open, and every room is a space for all.

For transcript click here. 

Cush Pocket, a proud sponsor, is a disabled owned company that sells wheelchair bags. Get $1 off by using code Angela Fox 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to AI Home Podcast, the first podcast for real estate resources and independent living strategies for the disability community. Why? Because accessibility is home. Hi, I'm Angela Fox, blogger, author and your host. Now let's begin. Welcome everybody, for Accessibility is Home Podcast. Again, this is Angela Fox and I am standing in my accessible bathroom because at horizontalhousescom, the business sponsoring this, we know that accessibility for housing is more than just the bathrooms. So for today's guest, I have the fabulous Mr Grifton Betton from the Maryland Builders Association, and I am delighted to have him as somebody that has been supportive of a wonderful legislation in Prince George's County, Maryland. He's going to be talking about that and that's why I'm delighted to have him for International Day of Acceptance for Disability, which is on January 24th. Mr Grifton, would you like to say hi to the audience and tell a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:09

Yeah, sure, my name is Griffin Betton. I work for the Maryland Building Industry Association, as you mentioned, mbia. I'm really thrilled to be here. Really, I think that the podcast you have what you're advocating for is awesome. I think it's really important, so excited to be here. I've been with the Association now for about five years in a government affairs role, doing advocacy, covering the Washington DC area primarily, but also statewide. 29 years old, from Maryland, yeah about me a little.

Speaker 2: 1:36

Worked in the political world now for almost 10 years, going back to turning down Annapolis Cool to work in local government. We see a lot of the important things happen right on the front of the university, some more of the federal stuff, but I think this issue is particularly important so I'm happy to be a part of it and on the podcast today.

Speaker 1: 1:52

Well, thank you, mr Griffin, Glad to have you on board. Can you tell the audience because not everybody's going to be from Maryland listening a little bit about the Maryland Builders Association and why it is so important?

Speaker 2: 2:05

Yes, mbia, or the Maryland Building Industry Association, is a non-proper trade association. We represent about 1,100 member companies give or take here in the state, so it's a big group. And we have members who are builders, developers, associates, engineers, landings attorneys, landings folks, interior designers, roofers, tradespeople. It's a big group. It's not just home builders or developers, that's in the name. It's a very large group of people who are involved with networking or whatever, maybe trying to drum up business, trying to also follow what's going on in the state. So it's a big group.

Speaker 2: 2:40

It's a merger of two former associations that merged about 12 years ago now. That one was in Baltimore, one was in DC and that one was MNCBIA, which is the Maryland National Capital Building Industry Association. There one was Maryland just building association, which was a shorter acronym, but they merged in 2013 now I guess it was. So maybe 10 years. That's a bit. We advocate, obviously, for residential primarily those developers on a slew of issues statewide. We're in pretty much every county, I think, except for two in Western Maryland and then a few in the East Shore, but outside of that we're very active a little bit in DC as well.

Speaker 1: 3:15

It's a big group.

Speaker 2: 3:15

We're a chapter of the National Association of Home Builders, which is in Washington DC. We do have a federal arm as well. We also have HBCF, which are home builders care foundations. So we do turnkey projects up to certain amounts for people who need anything from a minor fix in a home, or we've done something as recent as a men's shelter in Montgomery County that needed a roof. So we have members who obviously can offer services, whether it's from the ground up or a certain thing, plumbing or windows or whatever maybe they need. It's a great organization.

Speaker 2: 3:44

We're on defense a lot when it comes to legislation, but I think we do bring expertise. That's important for policy being crafted and things like that. We're always happy to be a source. That's just a bit in a nutshell, and there's a lot more to it.

Speaker 1: 3:55

Yeah, no, I really appreciate that. And I got you mentioned the National Association of Home Builders. I talk about that in some other episodes. You need to reach out to network. You might be a home owner and need some assistance, and sometimes it's hard to find out what's going on at state or even in your county. I always recommend people reaching out to them, because oftentimes state and county organizations are members of them, so I glad that you mentioned that.

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yeah, they're great. Obviously, I think some of the advocacy, but also just general information during COVID especially was huge with stuff that people didn't know about or whatever it may be, it's a great source and I think what the FBI also does is be a resource information as well to members and those yeah, it's always my first go to.

Speaker 1: 4:41

People want nowhere to start, so I'm glad to hear that the members. So I appreciate it's playing a little bit about the NBA, a little bit about who you are, but you talked about advocacy as part of your association and I know that recently the Prince George's County passed the Universal Design and Visibility for Housing Act and I know NBA came out in support of it. Would you like to talk a little bit about the legislation for viewers and why NBA supported it?

Speaker 2: 5:14

Yeah, you know, I think to give a little bit of history on, this has been an initiative at the county now for a number of years, going back to a former council member who had spearheaded it and we had actually been opposed to it because of the intent by any means or anything like that. We completely support what the bill was trying to do. Obviously, in legislation trying to do it was more just the concerns we had about Some of the requirements and mandates within there that were just a little bit extreme I think, some of the stuff with elevators and the cost and just generally how the timeline and what it was going to be implemented. I think we had concerns about and we had a little bit issue communicating, I think, where we could orchestrate this into making sure both sides, I think, to move forward and the current sponsor, councilmember Jolie and Ivy now chair Ivy, I think, really worked well with us. We went back and forth for three or four months going with some of our concerns, bringing Knowledge and, I think, examples of where we have done this or seen this or challenges that we have with it. But I think that was a big part of it and I think we ultimately support the intent completely. Sometimes we just think it's bad policy. We don't support a bill, whatever it may be. But this was like look, we don't have a an issue with what it's trying to do.

Speaker 2: 6:17

I think the concerns came about try and understand where the need is, obviously, what the cost is, which is not which is an important factor for members of ours who are for profit builders but on how it really is done. I don't know the extensive nationwide Data on how, where this is in their states or counties or whatever, but it is not. It's undefined. It's not the same as ADA. There are certain things in there and what it kind of means to be. Does universal design those requirements met or designed for life standards? But so I think there are a lot of.

Speaker 2: 6:44

There's still a lot of data still to be collected and understanding what that looks like a base level Added features, really everything they have on it. I think it's a good first step. There's a work group going on right now that I'm a part of, along with other, you know, stakeholders in the county. So I think we still have a couple of concerns in terms of a few things, but I'm hoping we can work those out prior to implementation in here in a couple years and go from there. I think it's better to be on board and being able to support initiative Ultimately, that you want to see happen, just making sure it's done. I think we're on the right track, for sure, and I think Prince George's County is gonna lead the way and doing this the right way and hopefully their counties follow, other states follow and we're from there.

Speaker 1: 7:21

We all hope now. My understanding and of course I'm from outside looking in is that the act, which is again for Listen, they county Prince George's County, not the full state of Maryland, but it's dying in 2026. Is it 50% of Accessibility for like single family homes?

Speaker 2: 7:43

and I can talk a little about it. So you're correct, it is 2026 Is the start date, I guess you can say and correct up to half of Unity or a project a set number of homes need to, you know, meet these standards that are in the legislation. There is a waiver component, which part of our concerns in the work of a sort of how De-pie in this case the Department of Permitting Services will administer that program. What if you have a waiver, what it means? I think some of the concerns there are just the administration process, which a lot of the time not to go too much there in some of these bills Is how it's actually implemented. It's really the policy, it's how the county carries it out and it's not always as easy as saying, okay, this is in effect, do this? Oh, correct, that's the basis of it and there are some exemptions for certain product types townhomes and two over twos.

Speaker 2: 8:30

on the outside there's still like, only not the on the interior that you have to meet and some of the zero step entry is what we're trying to work on now. I think ultimately in most cases it's achievable to some extent, given you know we can do with grading. But on large communities in particular, especially for single family Detached homes, it's harder for large communities to every house have zero step entry, walkway, given just topography or stormwater runoff or whatever it may be, which I think we're trying to find a Happy medium with the sponsor, others to see where that works out. But you're correct in kind of the timeline of what it looks to what, what it would capture right now and going from there. I think. Other counties you mentioned one just real quick in Montgomery I know they think they have designed for life standards where you get certain credits, but that's not a requirement. Yeah, points, yeah, I.

Speaker 1: 9:19

I will say that I'm filled that the legislation is actually called visibility.

Speaker 1: 9:25

It's actually universal design and visibility because for our viewers, visibility was actually a movement like a water down version of universal design and it started out in the 70s and there are a few states that had had passed legislation that required basically three things are part of visibility.

Speaker 1: 9:46

One would be zero entryway was one of them for single family homes half bathroom on the main, four, four with door access 32 inches and then also Room. So that way, the whole concept of visibility I've talked a lot about this but for those who are just listening now, it's this idea that you don't just look at the home as to who will be living there, but who will actually might come in visit and so have you be able to like for me, we all in to use the bathroom and having a room in case you need to stay at night. So visibility movements been around for a couple decades now and there have been some states that actually pass that Legislated. But that's a much water down version of universal design but it is a step forward and there's a lot great resources for all you Listen on. I have it on my website that talk about zero entryway and how more cost-effective If you built it while you're doing it, and actually they broke it down how much it actually costs, which is significantly.

Speaker 1: 10:50

Yeah and so it's exciting. But that's just three or four things, and this universal design act includes that, but includes more. Do you have anything more? I know the legislation is broad, but what some things that will be Included outside? Why just said about potentially zero entry? Has anything been defined yet?

Speaker 2: 11:11

There are. Some of the stuff you mentioned obviously is in there, but there are some additional requirements for things like electrical outlets, rocket switches, more accessible access for having to reach or for level if you are in a wheelchair, so you don't have to get up or extend yourself for certain, just if you're sitting in a given room.

Speaker 2: 11:28

There's around some of the, I think, for wheelchair accessible around the kitchen areas. There's more wider lengths, the exact number 38 or 40, but it's 42, but it's in there as well. The first floor full bed is what they're looking at now, having the ability to have a first floor full bedroom, which is a little bit undefined. Obviously, per Maryland Code, it does require a window, a separate door, so it's not like a. I guess it could be like a den, but you'd have to have a closed off door in the sense. And then the first floor full bathroom is a little bit different. I wouldn't say the zeroes of entry, shower railbars, things like that. That's a little bit different, I think, than what typically was the half bath. But also and there is a electric stair chair ready if you have the ability to, you know, need a stair chair at some point.

Speaker 1: 12:08

That's great.

Speaker 2: 12:09

That's in there, which is it's really important. I think a lot of that now. The widths of the staircase are now required to be a little wider, but I do know in talking to some builder members that's a given already in some cases, given because you see that more commonly.

Speaker 2: 12:21

But on top of my head it still is relatively vague, to be honest. I think a portion to build. A large portion of it is for the administrative process and the waiver and what requirements you have to meet on based on percentages, I think we're going to hopefully get more of it defined, but I think a big part of this is more data collection. I think we're trying to get an understanding of what new home owners current home owners want to see or maybe need more than others. Now, I understand you want to have you avoid having to do major retrofitting costs or things like that, which is always problematic, but I think in talking to some folks about this, it's just not as commonly seen in some cases, but it's different on each case.

Speaker 2: 12:56

Someone maybe has I've heard of someone having a mess, or someone is wheelchair bound, or someone just is has a weight issue or something like that where certain things are needed versus I need all this. Well, it is a little more alacaric versus the full scale of I need all this, but it's important to make sure, I think, that things are accessible or you need it without having to do major renovations to a home and also aging in place. Sorry, I'm not going to carry on here, but that's a big. I don't think people want to do yeah, no, it's yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:23

A lot of people get confused, like what's aging in place and what's universal design, and the concept of reason why I do this podcast is like you and I talked offline was the concept of disability home ownership. What is that People like? Oh, I didn't think about it and honestly, it's just the degree is how I break it down to people and who is asking for that? Probably on a budget.

Speaker 1: 13:47

Probably the simplest way of explaining it, I tell people that the Americans with Disabilities Act does not apply for private sector housing with OSS4 units or more and that's a pair of housing act and that's before the ADA, so you can imagine what's required of that. So, basically, that's why this legislation at the county level and other states is such a big deal, because it's not a natural requirement. But on the positive side, where you don't have legislation, you have the freedom to voluntary do this If it's not required, and a lot of disability organizations are creating their own code, as I call it. This is what we would like to have, knowing it's voluntary and based on our research Kelsey, out in California.

Speaker 1: 14:33

They wrote a 120 page book and I really like how they do it, because they don't focus on everything that you need to have. What they do is they focus on the major disability, not the diagnosis. I think that's one thing. I always tell people saying you have MS disability, what do you need? Because chances are what you need a entirely different disability may also, or each place. So there's a lot of overlap and so this book and I'll send it to you does that and they break it up by room and it feels a little overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 15:06

It's not an easy read but it's a very comprehensive. It doesn't get into kids or laundry lists of all the disabilities. It's more of healing and pair of visually impaired mobility and no divergent things like that. There are a lot of organizations, with another organization in Virginia that also is doing that. So it's an exciting time and there are a lot of resources. Again, it's voluntary, it's not legislative, but it is exciting time. I can just feel the progress already.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Yeah, no, I'd appreciate it because I think I'm curious to learn more about it. One of the things we had initially come to the table with was mandating the option to offer a set of standards on a home, have in a model home for say what this looks like. And, to your point, a little bit about the specificity needed for a given person, and I understand it's probably ideal to say, look, this is going to try and we're going to be based upon an amount of people who have something we want to try and do. This is what the goal is long term to have that. But yeah, it does vary.

Speaker 2: 16:10

I heard one example of someone had a history of some kind of arthritis in the family or whatever, where they couldn't easily and it was. It wasn't a diagnosis per se, but it was like, hey, I have this one day, I don't know, I'm planning to live here. It's better to prepare it. But yeah, no, I'd appreciate it because I do think it's a lot. It's a vast amount of things. It's not just one or two or three hey, your wheelchair or your disabled or whatever in this case or I think it goes beyond that for sure.

Speaker 1: 18:05

It does. I've been disabled since I was born, so 41 years before the internet was really big.

Speaker 2: 18:10

It was around, but you still okay.

Speaker 1: 18:13

I really had to reinvent the wheel all the time and I was born before the.

Speaker 2: 18:17

ADA.

Speaker 1: 18:17

And unfortunately and I say anybody who's been new to disability community listening or those who may be working like real housing developers is that a lot of us are not born with being disabled, it's only become disabled.

Speaker 1: 18:31

It's new to you, right, it's new, it's dramatic, and so you tend to think you have to reinvent the wheel because people you talk to are not disabled. You were not born disabled, and so you tend to think about what you need, which is totally understandable, and then just figuring that you have to reinvent the wheel. So I always encourage people not only to reach out to me and my company and the podcast and everything, but on Facebook groups and just pop what I call the bat single, pull a little post and you will get somebody that has an answer. And so you don't necessarily have to reinvent the wheel. And I think that is my takeaway for housing developers and anybody working in the whole. Builders is be mindful that if you're talking to the disability community, you know obviously you don't want to grill them and say how have you been disabled? Not encouraging as an invasion of privacy.

Speaker 1: 19:24

But at the same time be mindful of it's still new and it's really reaching out to the disability community, is really important and will often overlook, and there will be somebody, as I just mentioned, the organization's really trying to look at as a holistic and not just individual disability. I appreciate that.

Speaker 2: 19:46

But no, and I think a lot of the time. Just real quick. I think a lot of the cases I've heard of are examples at least, and that's one of the things too in talking to just everything from a small time custom type person to a nonprofit to a large track builder is typically consumer. They need these things and it's something they need to do. The builder needs to, you know which they'll always do to accommodate obviously. I think it's typically that we at least I've seen, has been I need these things in my new home or I need this in our least new construction. That would be yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:14

And that's part of the consulting that my business does to try to how you work through that and everything, because it really is unfortunately still not new. Like I said, there's a lot of things been going around, but it's still new territory for a lot of people. But hopefully that helps you and other individuals. I know it can be a lot. It can be a lot and I think that's one of the things too.

Speaker 1: 20:37

But going into the impact of this particular legislation for PG County in Maryland, how do you believe this new act will impact the housing market? Any ideas?

Speaker 2: 20:48

So it's a good question and, frankly, we've talked about a little bit. Ultimately, regarding the sort of data on this in terms of just it's been more one-offs, it's been more some homes in a larger community or some project by having someone does this, but I think, if anything, it's obviously, I think, going to be a positive long term. I think it's better to say look, prince George's County is doing a new design, they're having these centers in place for any new construction. We, a family, moves there. Whoever moves there and may need this or has family members know it's better to have that in place than not.

Speaker 2: 21:18

I think ultimately there is a concern on the price. That always and I don't mean to talk about that, but obviously the cost of construction in general is rising. So I think you start doing certain things and it does in some way affect the bottom line. I don't know to what extent that is right now, but we talked about it. We've heard different numbers and things like that. So there's always a concern there. But I think the more amenities you can have or offer in a home is better. So I think the effect is positive and I think to be more inclusive as well. People you mentioned disabled home ownership or if that. I apologize if that's incorrect, of how that's said, but important.

Speaker 2: 21:48

That's why I call it the kind thing it really is and I think that's. I think in general, anybody's looking that you want it. Doesn't matter who the customer is, it does not. And I think if you can offer to expand your potential customer base, not to sound like just all about business, it's better.

Speaker 1: 22:01

I don't, it's just yeah, it's.

Speaker 2: 22:03

The fact that you're self being a wheelchair is no different from me can.

Speaker 1: 22:07

Whatever you do everything you pay to whatever there's no difference.

Speaker 2: 22:10

I think, looking at it from that perspective, it's a benefit, not even to mention just what you already going to have, the amenities and the things that it's going to bring people to to be more inclusive, but it's a larger market, just to put it like that. I think, if you want to be just breaking it down, it's better had a larger pool, that the people who could buy a home potentially or whatever.

Speaker 1: 22:25

I love you said that, so I always say in every podcast and if my people are tired of me hearing it, I'll still repeat myself Disability is the largest minority in the United.

Speaker 1: 22:37

States, it's 25% of the population. And one thing I always I love my nonprofit organizations with all my heart and they are right that a good chunk of that is low income. However, if based on the population of disabilities, the portion that's not low income now, middle and above, it's about the same population as all African Americans. Now the problem is that with the nonprofits, whether trying to help those who need the help the most, they are right. We have the largest low income of all minorities and that's absolutely right. But the problem is when you keep saying that and if that's the only statistic, when I'm talking to people in the business, they'll say they're not going to buy houses, they're low income, and I will say, yeah, it's a higher percentage, but the people who are not low income, it's about the same give or take 5% of African Americans. And when we're talking about African Americans, we consider them consumers of buying homes.

Speaker 2: 23:54

Yeah, and it doesn't matter, race yet it doesn't matter.

Speaker 1: 23:57

It all depends on your perspective and what the data is. I encourage people to look into ads, a business, because it's really important. One question I have for you that I've not been able to find and maybe you just don't know right now but appraising a home, because at the end you build this, you have the cause of affability, but at the end of the day how much is the good appraise for?

Speaker 1: 24:18

you can sell it and the homeowner will want to know can I have equity, the multi-generational wealth? That's why a lot of people get houses, not just for shelter. As far as appraising homes with universal design, is there any guidance for that out there? I have not been able to find it.

Speaker 2: 24:36

So to this point, no more one-offs. Certain things you do, that may be a part of universal design as a whole, sure, but as an actual, maybe category, if you will, and I compare this a little bit to, I think appraisal is a whole being a little bit behind, a step or two behind where we are with houses today. If you talk to somebody who has a green home or an add zero home or really energy efficient home, it's still not appraised correctly because of the utility bills that it saves you over what they look like on a monthly basis or whatever there's getting there. But I've talked to people about training and things like that and it's in certain cases, sure, but I think as a across the board in the industry there?

Speaker 2: 25:14

no, I don't think it is this point, I think certain aspects are. But understanding what universal design does and how it adds value to a home in multiple ways, I don't think has been formally known right now. If I have to say and I think to your point really about, I think, the African American, I think some of that. I think Georgia County is a probably African American county. It's a wealthy, so I think for this to be there, I think you will have a lot of folks who are minorities. It's going to be an interesting mix of people there. So I think, look, I don't think it matters. There's, you know you want to buy a home, but doesn't matter if they're African American, white, disabled, not. There's a huge consumer base potentially.

Speaker 1: 25:49

And there is. It's just trying to get people to realize that people who are disabled are employed and they can't be all self efficient.

Speaker 2: 25:57

And you know money to be made right and I don't tell, I don't tell any house he developed to do everything but, universal design right you got to diversify. I agree with you 100% and you want the same things. That person who is eat whatever, does what there isn't much difference in terms of, I think, desires and wants in a home and what people like to have. So, yeah, I think there's a lot of overlap and just trying to get that hurdle.

Speaker 1: 26:19

Now, yeah, I do know that Fannie Mae Mac is revamping the appraisal, something with the appraisal process, and I'm trying to look into that.

Speaker 1: 26:29

And they're actually including what they call it for utilities eco-friendly, and that's the push to add that. But at this point they're not including universal design because there's some overlap between a lot of the eco stuff. For example, a quick example, not saying it's going to happen at PG County, but solar panels and having the ability to have electricity is really important for me because I'm an electric wheelchair. That's just a very simple sort of little bit overlap, and not everything, obviously. But I do know that Fannie Mae Mac is trying to revamp the appraisal process, but I don't know anything beyond that.

Speaker 2: 27:06

A lot of it's part of each state by state. They're doing certain climate solutions, acts, things of that nature to get, trying to incentivize people to do be more efficient, which makes sense, and your point about solar panels and other things, as far as even banning natural gas and new construction things of that nature. So it's pretty extensive.

Speaker 1: 27:21

But yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:22

I think universal design and skyline engineering the word kind of category, understanding what that looks like in a given home is still working, but it happens. Maybe at a solar pace, but it's happening, I would hope. But I think on the appraisal side is something that needs to get a little bit more up to speed with where the industry is. I feel like they're behind, whether it's they don't have enough appraisers as a whole or the education's not there or what. But I feel like I hear often about we're not on the same playing field in terms of what homes look like nowadays.

Speaker 2: 27:50

No one there's this not to get off on my ran here, but you mentioned climate. New homes are very efficient and there's constant push to regulate and regulate them more and frankly, I don't know if it's a misunderstanding of kind of what a new home looks like from an energy output and all this, but it's much more efficient home even 10 years ago, a new home today or obviously 2030s. Point being is that I think about identifying what homes are like today and what they have in them, the resiliency of them from energy sample, but also your point about how they can accommodate everybody is still not there, which needs to change.

Speaker 1: 28:23

I think it's just a matter of finding the value that consumers want, and I was reading the NHB natural Association of Home Builders a 2021 or 2020 survey and they asked about energy efficiency and most consumers only wanted it. Like we just asked the question, they didn't rank very high, but when you could prove that the utilities will be lower, then they started to want to have that. And I just say that because that's how universal design, in my opinion, should be. The approach you mentioned earlier about aging in place and so, by worry about having arthritis, the number one safety issue for the senior students is all falling in the home and there's a lot of disabilities and so be able to not have as many steps and things like that.

Speaker 1: 29:18

So I think health insurance company has been all kinds of data about the fact that and we call that in COVID right If you put individuals in nursing homes and other facilities, that really is not that much more economic. They thought it would be and they're finding out that really having the individual stay in the home, the health will last five years longer before an additional symptom will occur. There's a lot of, I think, advocates for the business. I'm all about business. I think it's a great social movement, but working with health insurance companies and to get them on board that. Hey, we don't want the pace because nursing homes are expensive, oh yeah, and no one wants to be in nursing home.

Speaker 2: 30:03

No one, no one wants to be there. No, and your point? I think we're seeing also a lot now, at least in some parts, on 55 or greater communities. You're seeing individual resident and look, they're not saying cheaper, but you are seeing a trend and I know that kind of goes against the age of the place. But there is a safer model. I'm not, I'm just saying there we are seeing more of these age restricted communities that are popping up and be even blended into larger for any age communities. There's one example in our account called Two Rivers and others, but no I agree.

Speaker 2: 30:32

Yeah, it's a hotbed for catching something or getting sick or expand, it's just not. You don't want to be there, obviously.

Speaker 1: 30:39

Ironically there was a legislation called the Olmstead not literally, I'm talking Supreme Court case called the Olmstead and it was in 1995. And that really was what we call the desecration of the disability. Independence Day was when the ADA was passed in 1990 and then 1995. Surprise, people were still institutionalized right, and I won't get into the details. I am a lawyer so I get all the key on it.

Speaker 2: 31:04

I appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 31:05

Yeah, but it basically two individuals with mental disabilities voluntarily went into a facility and we got help and they were going to leave after I take a year and the doctor said what we provide you here is not available in your community or in whole spy, and so we will not discharge you. And so these two individuals who voluntarily went into this facility, this institution, was stuck there for many years Got out but had to go up to Supreme Court and the Supreme Court has said that no part of the ADA is that whatever you offer in a facility should be within the community and that otherwise you are institutionalizing and going against the spirit of the ADA.

Speaker 1: 31:57

But that happened in 1995. It's ironic that still health insurance companies still required to get around the clock care pay for to go to a nursing home.

Speaker 2: 32:10

Right.

Speaker 1: 32:10

And anyway I will get too much more on that.

Speaker 2: 32:13

And in some cases for that regarding insurance, I don't know enough about it. In this case, the level of the facility type isn't always going to be a top tier. Unless you have out of pocket you can pay. I'm sure it's not.

Speaker 1: 32:24

It's traditionally, if you're not low income on Medicare and you're not a nursing home, you're not going to get a job. You're not going to get a nursing home, I mean, you're not going to get a job, but you're not going to get a job Interesting. That's why it's really challenging. I always say that the working class disabled is forgotten in a lot of how things are made. So that's why housing is such an important thing to me, because I have an extra room. So if I want to have a nursing student, free room and board, to be around me when I'm at that age, I will do. And so housing is really a big problem, and if you're renting an apartment, you can have things adjusted, but you have to pay for it.

Speaker 1: 33:10

And you also have to pay for it to be removed Again. Having a house to do that one time cost is another reason why I can go on the many reason why housing and homeownership is so crucial for those who are severely disabled, because the health insurance and other things do not address it and the large part of that is health lobbyists a little bit. And also historically, the family is considered to have to take care of the family and that goes back to the industrial solution. But that's a little bit of history about that.

Speaker 2: 33:45

No, I appreciate it. It's really good point you bring up frankly about just if you don't have kind of the ownership aspect and you're just forced to then have to rent or do whatever and move around and add your own, add your own pocket pay for accommodations or dates. I don't know this, but I imagine adds up very quickly and it's good luck getting interest in these.

Speaker 1: 34:02

Yeah, International Mobility magazine did an article and it's with severe disabilities and not that's a big term, but for severe disability it's 15% more expensive for cost of living.

Speaker 2: 34:16

Oh yeah, and I think it's high. I think it's high. I mean you talk about even transportation costs and trying to get around it. It's just everything is. I know it's a good. It's a really interesting point you bring up. I appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 34:27

And having equity in your home.

Speaker 1: 34:29

That way, you can use it for low interest low versus your credit card, and at renting your house. There's a great website called becoming rental ability and it's all about those two. It's like an Airbnb or homes with universal design is the fabulous company that I know and we run in the same circles. You can make money off your house. Besides equity, you can rent it out, right. So there's so many reasons why All of that is just like everybody else, right. So, going back to what you said earlier for one question, we talked about appraisals for the legislation and I know you talked about training might be an issue with that. We talked about the consumer, the cost, the housing developers, the cost. I totally understand that. What tools or resources do you think are needed to help these housing developers or realtors?

Speaker 2: 35:21

So from when you say resources, from making it known to the public that it's available, it?

Speaker 1: 35:26

could be that I just you know what your perspective is, because it is new and you hit a point about there's a lot of data out there.

Speaker 2: 35:34

But it's a good point to bring up, and I think, frankly, people like yourself and others who have been advocates for the disability community as a whole, and I think understanding the challenges that you go through is going to be how we get there. I think ultimately, you have to have, obviously that is important but that can be done from experiencing building homes and all these things that you just understand and do and you've been around, you've been doing it for a long time. But I do think with something like this, it does you need people who are stakeholders from obviously they are disabled or they've experienced it or they own a home and what they've had to do to their home. So I think that's how we get there, I think from the county. I think the county's going to really be needs to be crystal clear and kind of what is required, what's needed, how. It's going to be some growing pains, it's going to be a process, but I think we're in the right sort of spot where we're together and what needs to be done and what we see.

Speaker 2: 36:21

But I think it's going to take some time. On the education front, you mentioned praisers and even builders and developers of how to build these, what's done what's needed on a given site or parcel, from a grading, whatever all these things. It really does it in the weeds a little bit, but I think it's just going to be sort of repetition and then also working with folks like again, I bring up you and others who have knowledge of this and have a big interest and knowledge of kind of what this is and how it needs to look and what that may be, and you always have people who are like.

Speaker 2: 36:48

I don't want this or that.

Speaker 1: 36:49

Not in my home, not in my neighborhood.

Speaker 2: 36:50

Yeah, exactly One of the things we're seeing right now is regarding electric vehicles. There's a big push now in mandate all new homes having the not necessarily the charging unit, but having the plug and cable, which costs a couple hundred more dollars and having this and now you have to. It's a brave new world for housing. On the idea of that, it's multiple different things you now need to do that do add to cost, but housing is a whole. Right now we have a major housing shortage and I bring up this because you mentioned affordability, accessibility. It's not just affordable housing, it's workforce housing, it's market rate housing you need. You can't do one without the others.

Speaker 2: 37:22

This particular upcoming legislative session at the state level starts next week. The governor is really going to be pushing housing. So I think a lot of the stuff related to housing and maybe I think on universal design, should start being talked about how that looks. Prince George's County is doing this. What's it? How's it going after a year or six months? What does it look like? What are the pain points? So I think a lot of this is going to be. It's going to be a. In my opinion, to put a number on it, it's going to be a 15 to 20 year process to see how it really plays out and what people need and what's. And I may be short but that's a reasonable figure. It's not going to be over a year or two or five years.

Speaker 2: 37:55

It's a long way of answering your question, but I think there are a lot of different things right now in housing that are just it's changing. But at that way, in terms of how you build it and how you develop for it, the types of housing people want, what they need, and even just over a couple of years period it's been since COVID. Really it's been interesting. And now people are working from home and they have a lot more time in their homes.

Speaker 1: 38:12

Yeah, and that's one big thing is we learned a lot in COVID that a house is more than just a shelter. It became where you, where you taught your kids. It became you know where you worked. It became a gym. And it's kind of ironic because the disability community we know. I always tell people the reason why I'm so passionate about this and why it focuses is that the world is still not accessible, so your home should be your way. So it's away from that, because it's the only spot in the planet that you can control. If you own your house, without some exceptions, you can make it. Now I just encourage you to just retrofitting.

Speaker 1: 38:51

My father's an engineer, so he always did things and says I got older I said no, it's got to be functional for me and others. And why it's just you? And I'm like it's gotta look pretty and he goes. Why I go? Because you're actually lowering the value of my home. Why not doing that? Plus, you want that. Yeah yeah, and that's nothing. We don't want. Anything is a two-time, it's beyond just function we like form two.

Speaker 2: 39:13

That's a point I'm getting as that. You have the free. It's yours, it's I don't, if it's only or really it's my choice, like I, so you have a house, right, yeah, why everybody has it.

Speaker 1: 39:21

But I always try to think of bottlenecks in the process and Oftentimes, when there's a good tent, don't do if you build it, they will come for the movie. That's not necessarily true if you don't focus on the players and you don't reach out to this really community. I know we've got that. Is it a board? What's it called? What about?

Speaker 2: 39:41

design more group, our task force, I guess. It meets once a month on the second Wednesday. That's the frequency of it. It's. It's a group of about 10 folks who from habitat, from smaller affordable builders and Architectural folks, someone from the county executive's office, obviously, and then the sponsor and another council person. I believe it. Right now there's a few others. I'm there, there's some I'm missing, but yeah there is a realtor on there.

Speaker 2: 40:08

I don't know if the actual like realtors that you said she's realtors has a seat on there, but there was a realtor. There was something from the city of two municipalities in Prince George County are on there as well. Who do or who have are also pushes. I think it's a town of Brentwood and somewhere else. But I apologize, stuff I had it on hand, I can get back.

Speaker 1: 40:25

No, I just wanted to yeah, okay. I think ball neck right, you could both be, tells us. It's gonna be the realtor's now gonna be selling or working with the disability To find the homes, that's all so that's right and that's, I think, where I do wonder.

Speaker 2: 40:39

Yeah, I'm curious on kind of that whole aspect about when you come to an area, that the research you do when you come to it, what are the obviously look for a billable plot of land and but I think when you do the sort of market factors, obviously near transit or near shopping or schools, everything that you factor in, what is the disabled population Look like in that given area and how does that look? I don't know how exactly, but I'm not saying that's a fact, that's. But you do wonder that, given what this legislation looks now and how you accommodate for that and how you reach out, because I think it's gonna.

Speaker 2: 41:05

It's gonna add something to, it's gonna change there.

Speaker 1: 41:07

Yeah, unfortunately, because I will tell you, disability is awfully not collected in a lot demographic.

Speaker 2: 41:13

Right and I don't yeah, and so it's tough with consulting.

Speaker 1: 41:18

Is you really look at generally again, but not just in your location, because I tell you what people will move to Accessible, affordable housing if it's by transport? So the number one thing is access to medical and then housing are the top three things, because you need transportation to get to your medical. Your housing Will prevent future medical and you can work from home now in theory. So that's why in the top three things, that's the old school's no, because your top performance is very community.

Speaker 1: 41:54

It's employment and then schooling, and a lot of people become disabled much later in life, so they may already have educated and we're not talking about education for your children, we're talking yourself that obviously schools might be important if you have children, which we do.

Speaker 2: 42:09

But for all but for yourself.

Speaker 1: 42:12

Most people we come disabled in the mid 40s or later, so in theory will have that training and yeah, only about it's rising. Only about five percent are Disabled before the 27th birthday Interesting.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Yeah, okay, yeah, and disabled, and just curious that the definition of, in this case, that definition, but you know the spectra, what it looks like ADA following the ADA.

Speaker 1: 42:39

Fine, yeah, that's the criteria and the reason why. Also, for those who are social security disability, there was the ABLE Act past, which allow you to have $15,000 or more in a savings account without affecting your social security disability.

Speaker 1: 42:56

Or if you become disabled before your 27th birthday as a federal tax deferred account. Yet that it was a compromise between the Republicans and Democrats. They want to include all disabled regards of being on social security, disability, and a compromise was you don't have to be on Social security but you have to be disabled for your 27th birthday. Because they knew only five percent did, yeah, those. It gets a little bit more complex and I always tell people but yeah, I'm, I know I am looking into Doing more training and things like that with realtors and yeah the appraisal things.

Speaker 1: 43:30

I'm on the back end because I know you want to talk to the disability community. It's a new thing for them. It's just new. It's just new, and we all have to work together and figure out a way of Treat it like you do in other Market. If that makes sense, it does, oh you're right.

Speaker 2: 43:50

It's adding in a sort of what you need to look for and point out and also try and offer to a given customer as a matter Whether whoever you're gonna be dealing with in that case. That's a decision point you bring up about what is needed for a given area, I don't. He mentioned, obviously, employment, housing and transportation being the three big factors for the, the city of the disability community, and I just wonder what that looks like in Prince George, what the types of people, whether it's a single person or a family, whether it's just a Spouse. I'm curious. They've showed you. That's what I think it's gonna be interesting to see a lot of individuals who become severely disabled right who are married.

Speaker 1: 44:27

Will you talk to them on the back end? Everybody knows they get divorced because the incomes together they can't get a lot of service because of no longer low income.

Speaker 2: 44:37

Okay, interesting. So the reason for divorce is actually to get better medical care? Yeah, okay, I don't know that a pretty big thing.

Speaker 1: 44:45

So I would guess they obviously they can't say that because it could be precarious, but but yeah, that's the Underline thing, especially if the state still allows divorce to live in the same house, and so you'll see them divorced on paper, but they still live together and interesting. But I'm not giving legal advice and everything happens. But yeah, so I would gather that you would see that and there'll be more data on the elderly and children, but the in between is Often overlooked because of not low income.

Speaker 2: 45:20

Let me ask you I guess in your experience that's right. I mean to flip the. I know no, no, but I'm curious. The types of builders you've seen build universal design type units or houses or whatever, are they specialized types? Are they large-scale, are they net? What's your experience with that? Just curious.

Speaker 1: 45:39

I know where a large senior population is at, aging in place, with a little bit of universal design added to it is Primarily what I see.

Speaker 2: 45:51

Okay.

Speaker 1: 45:52

And in fact a lot of people don't realize that Aging in place universal design is almost one the same, but they market it as aging in place. That's why I get big into it, right, they market at aging in place and then I'll talk to all of you like what you had, this and add that like oh yeah, we could, and why I'm suggesting it's just universal design stuff.

Speaker 2: 46:11

It's almost like a weird kind of loophole. You start to having different sort of terminology for what you're doing here. It's wait, so this is not that. That's what I struggle with, that's what I point, because we just in this conversation I've had not with you but since universal design, I've heard obviously designed for life, with her versus effort aging in place, ada being separate, different, just things that come into it and you're like wait, what are we still talking about? Is it this, is it that? Is it not including this?

Speaker 1: 46:36

and that's why I'm all about the marketability, because we get down to the marketability With a little bit of social justice aspect to it, because that's only is a part of it. We start doing that it doesn't become so much about what you know, is more about the objective, if that makes any sense.

Speaker 1: 46:54

Yeah, that's what I really try to do, but it's hard. I've been accused of being elitist and a few other things because I'm not focused on low-income housing, but low-income houses needed, if not enough. But this whole, this really home ownership and universal design, is where we stop people from going to low-income because, as I mentioned, people get divorced, they have to move in with the relatives or yeah whatever, and it's really the other side of the coin that no one's really talking about. Yeah, I appreciate you being here today.

Speaker 2: 47:27

No, of course. Yeah, I appreciate that. Learn a lot there. It's a lot to more to learn, I think on it, and I think this is where the tip the iceberg in the sense. But it's gonna be, for Marilyn at least, a lot of where we work. This is not one off so that you see it here and there, hear about it or certain things, but it's not a consistent sort of type of architecture standard that you see a lot. So it's gonna be interesting to learn more.

Speaker 1: 47:46

It's pretty cool.

Speaker 2: 47:47

I really appreciate you having me on. I enjoy the questions for great I. I know we're talking about this. It's a really interesting topic, excited for it and you see how it goes. So yeah, of course, thank you, bye, bye horizontal houses.

Speaker 1: 47:59

Calm is the hub for all things related to disability home ownership. You will find my blog, this podcast, my book and how my consulting services Can help real estate agents or healthy developers market and tap into the largest minority group, the disability community. Please help me continue this Exploration of disability home ownership by connecting through my Facebook page. Remember, sharing our collective experiences will allow us each to Lower the kitchen sink but raise the bar for disability home ownership. Thank you,