The Role of Life Care Planner and Construction Materials in Universal designed homes

Ever wondered the role of a  Life Care Planner has to make a home truly accessible ? Join me, Angela Fox, as we unravel the complexities of real estate and accessible living with insights from my guests, Danielle Reed and Foncio Smith. They bring a unique blend of medical and building expertise to the table, sharing their personal and professional journey in transforming residential spaces into havens of comfort and independence for those with spinal cord injuries through their company: Accessible Suites in Georgia. 

This episode weaves through the financial and emotional intricacies of customizing homes for unique needs, like the transformative power of aquatic therapy for a client with balance issues. Dive into a riveting conversation about the long-term cost benefits of such tailored home modifications, and how they can uplift not only the property value but also the very essence of quality living. We shine a light on the often-overlooked emotional significance of these changes, revealing why seeing beyond the price tag can redefine the independence and joy of individuals with disabilities.

Concluding with a critical gaze into the maze that is the insurance and healthcare system, we dissect the formidable barriers faced when securing necessary equipment and adaptations for accessible living. The dialogue expands to encompass the practical realities of home renovation from standing frames to stair lifts, and choosing contractors experienced in disability design. Our guests and I aim to empower you with the knowledge and advocacy tools needed to imagine a world where accessibility is woven into the fabric of every community. It is a perfect episode for national Tell Your Story Day. 

Cush Pocket, a proud sponsor, is a disabled owned company that sells wheelchair bags. Get $1 off by using code Angela Fox 

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to AI Home Podcast, the first podcast for real estate resources and independent living strategies for the disability community. Why? Because accessibility is home. Hi, I'm Angela Fox, blogger, author and your host. Now let's begin. All right, thank you everybody. Again, this is Angela, visually impaired. I am a middle-aged white woman with brown hair. I'm wearing a nice little fancy sweater that's pink and brown. I have my favorite little necklace icon that says keep calm and wheel on. So I appreciate everybody joining us. Danielle, would you like to introduce you and your husband?

Speaker 2: 1:04

Sure, so my name is Danielle Reed. I was a brain and spinal cord injury nurse for 20 years and I started providing housing in 2007. So I saw a need in our hospital where people would run out of 30-day housing that was provided for the people who were outside of 50 miles from the center, and I thought if I could get some furnished places with utilities included that were cheaper than a hotel room and make them super comfortable, that that would probably go pretty well, and it did. So my one spot quickly became three spots, and then in 2017, I bought another house that we went and made fully accessible, and I actually we have quite a history here but I bought that house with his brother. Actually, he came in, I got a bad contractor because we were making it completely accessible and the contractor didn't really understand what that meant. So we stumbled through that build and he came to the rescue and fired the contractor and took over the build, and that brought us together and I don't know we've been going ever since.

Speaker 3: 2:13

Yeah, danielle and I have known each other since we were 15. So I'm Foncio.

Speaker 1: 2:17

Smith.

Speaker 3: 2:18

And for those who are visually impaired, I'm middle-aged black male wearing a lavender polo shirt. I'm sitting here next to my lovely wife, danielle, but, as Danielle was saying, I basically she bought the house with my brother and I came over simply to assist wherever I could, and then I noticed some things that were not being built to the spec that I would think they should be built to and what I would personally build. So I had some conversations with Danielle and she didn't know, because she's not a builder. She knows what the end product should look like, but she's not an infrastructure person and so forth. So, like she said, I ultimately just took over the project as the general contractor for the most part and moved some of the other contractors off the job and just took over overall, and I fortunately had some flexibility in my schedule, basically from supporting floors and making sure the floors were able to support what we knew was going to be future motorized wheelchairs and fixing tile and making sure things were properly put in place.

Speaker 3: 3:17

I took over the whole thing and learned a lot in the process, because that wasn't my background as far as building handicap accessible properties, but I've been building since I was a child. For the most part, we owned a lot of real estate growing up and repaired houses and we never had a repairman at our house.

Speaker 3: 3:33

Everything we need to do. We built ourselves for the most part Anything from fabricating with welding things or out of wood or whatever need be done. It was no problem for me to just figure it out and do it Plumbing, gas, electric, et cetera. So it was just a great thing and, as Daniel said, that's what brought us back together. We've known each other since we were 15. So we generally went to high school together and have been friends ever since then, but never had a relationship with each other. But that was one of those things.

Speaker 3: 3:59

just the timing was there and we obviously we had some similar interest and trust and love for each other, and one thing led to another, and you know, here we are, plus years later.

Speaker 1: 4:09

While you were working on those homes. You also building your own home in a way, you just didn't know it. You mentioned that your family was involved in real estate. Was it primarily residential, commercial? A little bit both.

Speaker 3: 4:24

It was all residential, my just rental properties for the most part, and we built my sister's house. We built, rebuilt my grandmother's house, my parents, probably the years 10 or so houses even their retirement house if, which is like a 5 000 square foot house.

Speaker 3: 4:41

we built that house, digging the basement and everything with our own heavy equipment and stuff like that. Building Building is just something I just know how to do and it's second nature to me. No project is really too big. We're looking to get to the point where we actually are doing multifamilies and our goal is, as Daniel says, is to have a project big enough where we have to put up one of those tall cranes that you see on the big city projects. We'll start small and work our way up. But yes, no, it wasn't in multifamily, but I have worked on apartments before, but unfortunately they didn't belong to me.

Speaker 1: 5:16

That still counts. That still counts. It's just, what's the chances that somebody you know since you're 15 years old has this family and himself having the real estate background? Because one thing thing, if you look with disabilities historically it actually came as a result of the industrial revolution is families are still primarily expected to advocate and take care individuals with disabilities. It's still that the onus it's still in a lot of ways on families compared to government and other sort of entities. So to me it's not a surprise, but I think it's fabulous, danielle. So let's kind of circle back to a little bit about you. Now that we know who your lovely husband is and his background. Tell us first of all, where are you guys located?

Speaker 2: 6:04

we're in atlanta and officially we're decatur, so we're on the outskirts of atlanta, but shepherd center I worked at shepherd center for 20 years so it was. That was a 20 minute or so drive, everything's if you can get the flow of traffic or whatnot. So we still consider ourselves atlanta for the most part. Anybody who's around here knows decatur, so we'll just say decatur, but it's not like we're out in douglasville or cartersville, so we still consider ourselves Atlanta for the most part. Anybody who's around here knows Decatur, so we'll just say Decatur, but it's not like we're out in Douglasville or Cartersville or some of those places where people are still claiming Atlanta.

Speaker 2: 6:33

We're officially from Decatur and the properties that we try to keep our property is basically in our backyard for the most part because we have such a need in our city for handicap-assessable housing.

Speaker 2: 6:46

We have access to a lot of medical care close by and so we really we have not saturated our market by any stretch of the imagination. It's easiest for us to keep things close by and to look close by. We know the area really well, we know pricing and know what's affordable for the population and how to stay in those boundaries. We're sticking with our backyard for now, but we would like to basically consult and help other people in other cities and expand this in that kind of way. I'm a life care planner and so I have been spending a lot of time doing one-on-one evaluations and helping with recommendations for modifications in that way, and so with that we're building a program to help other people make their properties accessible and to help the aging in place population, and in that way we'd really like to have some more examples of universal design in other cities. So that's the way we hope to expand.

Speaker 1: 7:47

Okay, now what is the difference between a life care planner and, like a vocational rehab specialist?

Speaker 2: 7:59

So vocational rehab specialists will come in and help with the reintegration of jobs and figuring out what they want to do employment wise. Now, a vocational rehab specialist is qualified to become a life care planner, but so are some other spaces, so you could be a physical therapist or a doctor or a nurse. I was a nurse. I went into life care planning from that, so we definitely can bring other specialties into life care planning. But so what life care planning does is they take a client and they figure out what it's going to cost to take care of them for the rest of their life, from housing modifications to caregivers.

Speaker 2: 8:41

Caregivers are actually the biggest expense that anybody's going to encounter. We go to go through what are life expectancies based on some research and there's charting and such. You can look at what equipment might be needed. How long is it going to take for that equipment to wear out? What are the possibilities of needing certain surgical procedures?

Speaker 2: 9:04

So if you have a spinal cord injury I'm most familiar with those catastrophic cases and spinal cord injuries. There's pressure sore, there's skin issues and things that you have to do to protect that there's a likelihood, depending on what level you are. How many skin surgeries is somebody going to need in a lifetime and let's bring all of that together and figure out what it's going to cost to take care of somebody. And then a lot of times you go and fight the insurance company in court. So we would go and testify to, basically, you would go in as an expert witness and talk about why it's going to cost that amount to take care of that person for the rest of their life. So they can work on a settlement, so to say. So they can pay that off and that's it on the insurance company. Then it falls on to the client to manage that money and take care of themselves from then on out.

Speaker 1: 9:50

Okay, and when it comes to that insurance process we are just talking about, let me back up. Are we talking about just the medical care, or is that also the health care that's associated with that, or are they two separate things?

Speaker 2: 11:39

Nope, it's all included. Everything you could think of that somebody would need, that would be a cost to take care of somebody for the rest of their life, is included. So housing is included. Transportation is included. Definitely, medications, any procedures, any hospital stays, anything you can think of would be included in coming up with that number.

Speaker 1: 12:02

Okay, can you give some examples to our listeners? What's on the housing things that might recommend? And then would it not be included in that insurance settlement?

Speaker 2: 12:16

So when you go in and evaluate somebody, you're looking at their function how much, what can they do? What are you, what are they going to need? So, instead of looking at the big universal design process that you would accommodate everything, you're looking at that specific individual and how are they functioning, how are they likely to function, what is their prognosis? You're looking at it's a very personalized situation. And then you're looking at the house that they already have or what their plans are. Where are they going to? Are they going to be able to even live in the house they have? Can the house accommodate their needs? And then you go through and so it's let me evaluate your home and let me figure out what things we could change. Or if it's just not doable, then we need to recommend another option. There needs to be another option. Needs to be looked into whether some people do run into new builds. But basically, can the house accommodate them in their space or can it not? So it's all included and recommendations are the same accessibility like the same recommendations you would give anybody going into that situation.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Can we get through the front door? How many steps are there to enter? How long would the ramp need to be to get into that and is there space on level ground to be able to get that person into the door? And can we have two entrances and exits and what are the? What does the bathroom look like? Can we make it big enough to get around? Can we live in this house? Because, like you said, it's not just the bathroom, it needs to be accessible. So you're just looking at the whole big picture and what can you do to help this person have a normal life?

Speaker 1: 13:54

Yeah, One thing I've always seen is there's always like a priority as far as whether or not health insurance is going to cover or doctors or anything. So I would guess I'd like you to confirm or not. And that is when you are saying these are the modifications that this individual needs to take care of him or herself to have a life right. Do the health insurance company only focus on the bathroom because that's like bathing and sanitary, or how do you make that argument to get out of just the accommodations of a bathroom, like to actually enjoy your house, assuming that the structure suits the ability to make modifications.

Speaker 2: 14:43

There's not really an argument about it. It's basically the whole, the total quality of life, and it's also as far as insurance company is concerned. When you're evaluating these things, you're not considering what insurance somebody has. You're basically going what would it cost out of pocket, not considering any insurance benefits. Now there's some issues. There's a Medicare set of sides and different certifications and things that go down a different path that I don't know a lot about. But when we're doing evaluations, there's not an argument about getting past the bathroom. It's the entire totality of the person and their happiness and their lifestyle. So it's not really an argument, so we don't really have to get around it. There's a few things. That is fun. I've definitely.

Speaker 2: 15:28

I threw a big thing into the mix when I was going through the certification and so my client that I was evaluating and I got slammed for this, but I still would still stick up for it. I decided this guy had some balance issues and ringing in the ears and he couldn't travel, like traveling was a problem, but when he would get in the water he was. He could do therapy in the water and I'm like we're gonna build this guy a pool. We are building this man a pool and I got a lot of pushback from that and it was really interesting. I compared it to all of the other options of getting this man therapy and building him a pool in his backyard really was the cheapest option, and so it was interesting in that kind of way where I was basically told don't do that again, and I was like, man, I would totally do that again, I would go and I would, I would.

Speaker 2: 16:19

That's the fight I would have, and so I would need to tell an attorney up front. You really might. I don't know if you need to hire someone else, but this is the best recommendation I can make for this particular person. So it's a little bit touchy and interesting in those kinds of ways. And also, our final court case was in Ohio and they weren't. They didn't have a long warm season and I'm like, yeah, you would have to take that into account too If you live in somewhere where it's freezing all the time. And no, we don't want to build a pool in somebody's backyard, but in the South, where I'm from, we have a longer warm season and this would be helpful for somebody in my area.

Speaker 3: 16:56

Yeah, and even on top of that, no matter what, having a pool, you can actually build a pool house, which still would be less than having to pay to travel to therapies and all these various things. Because if you think about, in the sense of someone who is able-bodied, everything that they're capable of doing in their home, around their home and things of that nature, and then there's a reason, due to an accident or whatever may happen, that's been taken away from that person. So the responsibility is on those who took that away from this person to now accommodate them in their full life, of what they now have to deal with, and that's the entire home, including their yard, including the therapies.

Speaker 2: 17:35

Oh, yeah, it goes into the yard and everything.

Speaker 3: 17:37

The average person who's able-bodied doesn't have to go to therapy every week or have a therapist come to their house. So that has to be something that is paid for and considered. And someone may want to argue the point. But again, that's quite expensive to pay for the transportation, the time and everything else, when all those things can be put right into the onsite for the house in the long term and actually even adds to the value of the home in some cases, because then it's aging in place for some other people. If they were people, having a pool or whatever it may be, having a heated pool is a pretty cool thing, especially if you lived in Ohio. Imagine that bonus. There's things like that. People always want to argue for the least amount to pay, but that's why you have professionals who can come in and basically validate with the data, me being an engineer or a software person and I deal with corporate America and things like that all the time.

Speaker 3: 18:23

It's all about the numbers.

Speaker 3: 18:25

So the first thing I'm going to say is yeah, that sounds great, but where are the numbers? And if you can validate that with the numbers, as well as the soft factors the emotional value of being able to have a nice home that you can live in and get around, as well as accommodations for, as an example she gave with the pool that makes the person feel a little bit less stressed just going through their everyday life and knowing what they're going to have to deal with for many years to come.

Speaker 1: 18:48

Was that the argument? That they thought it was cheaper than what? You got your hand slapped, which I commend you, because anytime you get your hand slapped, you know you're onto something in my opinion. I think it's great and I fully hear you both. I love this. I just want to follow this thought. What was their concern? Why did you get your hand slapped?

Speaker 2: 19:11

Because of the cost on the front end. Because when you have a large amount on that very front end, then it's hard to look at and it's the same problem in long-term, like when we look at medicine in general. People the preventative care don't want to pay for the preventative care. But aren't you're not considering what's going to happen long-term if those front, those things on the front end, are not taken care of? So do we want to complain about buying somebody a specialty mattress just because they don't necessarily need it in that moment, but maybe they have some fragile skin issues because they have diabetes or circulation problems or something else going on. So you want to pass over all that because they don't need it? Right then? And instead let's run down the path and put this person in the hospital with $100,000 surgery and all of the emotional trauma and everything that comes with it.

Speaker 2: 20:05

And so I would say it's that same argument, right along with that. It's that front number that I don't want to see and I don't want to pay for and I can't see past that. So no, that doesn't sound like the best option for me, when I can look at the front end number, of saying, okay, if I can pay $50 for a transport to the YMCA, and now I don't have to pay or wherever, to a therapy, and now I don't have to pay for the therapist to come to my house, which this is a little bit cheaper. It's just all about that front end number and making the people who don't have to live in that situation see the long-term outcome.

Speaker 3: 20:39

Yeah, and I have another example right away. Also, what do you call the stands like the one we have at the rental right now that the fellow left, where you can stand up?

Speaker 2: 20:46

and the standing frame.

Speaker 3: 20:48

The insurance company in general will not pay for a standing frame.

Speaker 2: 20:51

They won't pay for sometimes I'm sure it could be in different situations A lot of, but a lot of times.

Speaker 3: 20:55

It's very common, but data even shows where having that standing frame reduces stress on ankles. But they're willing to not pay the what, $200 or $300 or whatever it costs for those standing frames but then pay for a $12,000, $20,000 ankle surgery later or whatever it comes down. So it's things like that Insurance is interesting for sure.

Speaker 1: 21:16

It's just. I don't know if you guys are familiar. So, like I'm in electric wheelchair, I use Promobile, which is a brand I highly recommend. It's a little bit more expensive but they really cater to the higher end wheelchair user.

Speaker 1: 21:29

Oh, I call the professional wheelchair user or full-time wheelchair users, like I like to say it. But regardless, medicare would not until recently and it's been like a decade-long battle would not cover the lift. So if I want my wheelchair to raise and they've increased because the disability community has seen it such a helpful impact that all the wheelchair companies have not only had a wheelchair lift but they continuously make it go higher and higher, every four or five years when I get a new wheelchair it seems to go like an extra two inches and wheelchair users have just found a way to pay pretty much pay out of pocket for it because Medicare did not consider it a medical necessity. They would pay for the tilt to relieve pressure points, sores, they found that, but some reason, if you want to be able to reach something up high, they didn't think that was medically necessary, like it was a medical reason.

Speaker 1: 22:34

But we, the disability community, the ones that wheelchair users have said people fall out of the wheelchair trying to reach things. If they can reach things out of a cupboard, they can feed themselves better and that. But it's along the same lines of the. There wasn't an immediate medical impact in a few months or at the end of the year. It was something that would be problematic much later, and so I hear you both loud and clear on that. I commend you to do that pool thing. What other things have you, danielle, tried to expand the horizon as far as housing accessibility? Do you have any other examples? I thought that pool story was fascinating.

Speaker 3: 23:20

What about the elevator scenarios? Because a lot of people don't realize that.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Elevators are definitely one, with the expense of installing an entire elevator compared to the price of the stair lift.

Speaker 2: 23:30

I haven't gotten into one of those personal situations, but that would definitely be one that I'm sure there would be a lot of pushback on, because there's a huge price difference, especially if a house would need an external shaft built for it, depending on what's going on in that way, and most houses do not have a place that you could just put an elevator in.

Speaker 2: 23:49

So that would definitely be one which I guess it would depend on the situation and how things are with the rest of the house and how the whole thing would come together, because if there's roadblock after roadblock, you're going to have a harder time where, if everything else, is perfect, and that would be the one thing that would maybe make it really easy to deal with and help you enjoy, because we did have a friend that did put an elevator in and I was looking at their house and I thought, wow, this is going to be like. This is going to be a really difficult house to live in, because they had a couple steps to go up here and a couple steps to go down into a den and it was basically a five level house on three stories, but they just programmed the elevator to stop at each of those, stop those little mini spaces, and it worked beautifully for them. And that might not have been something I would have been able to see past all those levels.

Speaker 2: 24:40

So that was a really eyeopening thing for me. That was helpful, but definitely that's a great example the difference in stair lifts and the pain that stair lifts are. And what about a chair at the top and the bottom and how do you get this up and down? And is insurance going to cover two chairs when you have that situation? No, they're not really going to be very accommodating to. What do you do when you get up there and how are you going to get the chair up?

Speaker 2: 25:05

And it's all of it is a fight every step of the way in a sense, because you have a side over here that's seeing this astronomical number at the end. Ultimately, caregiving is a huge part of it and that's still a battle. And so you're like running into workman's comp, pay schedules and what's the maximum amount anybody out there is paying for caregiving and what's the average, and let me get five different prices. It's a lot of back and forth, which ultimately is why I did not go down the path of doing full life care plans. I took my love for real estate and really focused just on that piece of it and and working closer with occupational therapy in that kind of location and area Like I'm not just like there are life care planners for birth injuries that go from an infant to cover the whole range of a lifetime.

Speaker 2: 25:58

That blows my mind. I can't. That's too much, and maybe it's the ADHD, like only being able to see short periods of life almost at a time, but thinking about a birth injury all the way up to a full lifespan, I'm like nope, that's completely out of my wheelhouse I have. I would not be able to sit on, stand and testify for any of those things because it's just almost something I can't. I'm just not that familiar with it.

Speaker 1: 26:25

Yeah, let's dive into a little bit more deeper. About accessible suites I know you briefly mentioned at the very beginning, and so what I'm hearing is that you saw a good overlap between your love of real estate and then your kind of narrow focus of life care planner on spinal cord injury. Did I summarize that correctly?

Speaker 2: 26:47

So I was in the caregiving space as a brain and spinal cord injury nurse and loved real estate the whole time and loved basically. Just I don't know, I was never really settled in that space, but it was strange. I felt like I was really good at it too. But it was strange, I felt like I was really good at it too, and it was a glorious road of being able to be that advocate and now I get to take that to outside of the walls of a hospital and, I hope, to help more people in that kind of way.

Speaker 2: 27:16

So then we moved into actual accessibility in 2017. And so that's where the world opened up, and it was a tough. We made a lot of mistakes, I will say that. And so if you're going down the road of having to make a place accessible, reach out and get some help. It's just you're already dealing with trying to figure out living and life again, and then you're adding on real estate and accommodations. And how do I make this work? Only you really quite you don't understand what you're going to need and I'm only speaking from the catastrophic case, because I'm not I'm not really super familiar with the birth injuries and moving through that.

Speaker 1: 27:54

What are some as far as your company, accessible Suites. I hear the word suites. Is it a suite? Are you focusing on? What does it look like? Is it standalone apartments? Is it a suite? Are you focusing on? What does it look like? Is it standalone apartments? Is it a communal space? What is accessible? Suites?

Speaker 3: 28:11

Yes and yes.

Speaker 2: 28:12

With our expansion and what we've been trying to do is we're definitely looking for more single family residential areas that are just one family. But in the place that we have, I found a place that was a giant, a pretty big ranch, and I separated it into three sections. So each room has a roll-in shower and each room I did high and low mounted sinks and I was running around the hospital with a tape measure measuring grab bars and measuring all of the wheelchairs I could find in the facility to see where do these things need to be exactly, because I want people who are in manual chairs to be able to roll their knees under things and I want people in power chairs and I had not heard of Universal Design when I was going through this so I want power chairs to roll under the sink and those can be some pretty drastic differences in getting knees under sinks. So we have a high mounted sink, wall mounted sink and a low sink. So each room also has sinks at different heights, which will throw some people because it's man, I can come and stand up on this and it's like my sinks. Here I'm like, yeah, that's, you would get it if you needed it. But so each room has those two sinks, Each room has a roll in shower, Each room has a washer and dryer because that was another important thing to me but the kitchen and dining is shared and then there is an upstairs, but that's basically an overflow.

Speaker 2: 29:34

So if anybody has company or anybody who could use upstairs, we'll just have an extra room to use and it's not anything that we charge extra for. It's just there if anybody wants to use it. So we are three different spaces and it is almost like a pad split situation If you've heard a pad split, a rent by the room type of situation but each have their own entrances and they have their. It's an enormous. He built the most beautiful deck outside. It's like a battleship. It's 48 feet long or something.

Speaker 2: 30:05

Yeah, it's big, it's big, so there's plenty of outdoor space for everybody. But they each have their own entrances and exits and there's not full kitchens in there.

Speaker 3: 30:16

But Refrigerator in each room.

Speaker 2: 30:18

There's refrigerators in each of the rooms and such so as separate as you can get without having all of the appliances that you'd have in a kitchen in each room.

Speaker 3: 30:25

Okay, and the good thing about in a sense as well. Having the communal space is where people with similar disabilities or mobility issues can they still can mingle together and but they can be as separate as they want to be as well. Kind of thing Having the outdoor space with the big deck and we have a nice big yard out back. When the weather's nice or even when it's even cooler, they can just roll outside and enjoy the sunshine, and things like that. A lot of people just don't have that accessibility in their home, especially if they before were living in an apartment or something like that. But now they actually have some nature, they can go out and just sit out and relax and just enjoy that as well.

Speaker 2: 31:02

And I will say, with that combined space, that we do get some pushback on the front end, a little bit of pushback on the front end, but for the most part, I will say a majority of the people that go into there go in, like he was saying, with the community. They realize that they're in this, that they're not alone, that they're in it with somebody and they're there, they can talk to somebody that understands what they're going through and they end up becoming lifelong friends. We end up becoming friends with a lot of them. So we still really keep in touch with quite a few of the people that have stayed there and it just turns into almost a peer support type environment. But we would like some single families that are completely separate, because we also want to accommodate the people who have small children and things like that and pets, and this is an ideal.

Speaker 2: 31:47

Like there's respiratory, you already have some respiratory issues, in some cases more susceptible to some different things or not. You can't clear things as easily as some other people. So we still try to be considerate and obviously therapy dogs are a different situation, but just as far as people bringing pets in and such, we try to keep that out of the picture and we would like people to still have those types of things. So we are definitely looking to expand and have some more places that are completely single family. What we're finding is, the more you talk to people like yourself, there are so many people out here that are basically running side by side and working for the same things, but don't realize there's other people working for the same thing, so it feels really lonely and that's why I started the podcast as the medium.

Speaker 1: 32:39

That's exactly why I started Accessibility is Home To give voices, by the way, it's just not one voice, it's a choir. Like I knew these things were happening because, like behind me, you can see my book, my Blue Front Door. I wrote that when I was trying to work real estate agents to buy my very first home during the end of the housing crash, and even though I was an employment civil rights attorney working for the federal government. It was an uphill battle and so I wrote the book as as or therapy and because my family got tired of me griping, because it was a two year process to find the right house. And this is how tight the disability community is. I always like to tell people and that is I ended up a girlfriend of mine.

Speaker 1: 33:29

She was born with only one leg. She's from Indiana, like I was from Indiana, but we met out in DC both federal employees and she did disability recruitment in HR and one of her sign language interpreters wanted to sell her house because she just got married and didn't want a realtor, didn't want to pay the commissions because she didn't want to upgrade the home. And I would have to gut a home. You two will probably be very familiar, there will be no accessible housing for me to buy Anyway. So she just connected us and I end up haggling with the owner directly and bought the house. So I didn't even use a real estate agent.

Speaker 1: 34:10

But that's also the emphasis on horizontal houses, my company, where I am focusing on assisting real estate agents on what I call the upscale remodel to try to help them on understanding universal design but the actual return of investment that you would get.

Speaker 1: 34:32

You actually increase the value of your home and how do you market and MLS listings. And, fun fact, the National Association of Realtors just changed their commission practice because there was a $418 million lawsuit that they had to settle for inflation because if you are an NRA member, sellers set the commission rate for both. So now both real estate agents will have to negotiate with each other and be transparent on how they came up with the commission. So it's not just automatically set at 6% or higher, as it got during the COVID, and that's why I hope Horizontal Houses is going to squeeze in to say you want to set yourself apart, become an upscale remodel and things like that.

Speaker 1: 35:25

So there are all these different things that are happening, as you said, danielle, and that's why I did it and we all just have to work together on really moving the needle because we all. Disabilities are 25% of the population. One question I do have have you say you made a lot of mistakes when you're doing this real estate we all do when working with contractors like what are some lessons learned and what are some tips you could give people when working with contractors?

Speaker 2: 35:53

do you want to start? You want me to do you want? To talk about any of our major, major mistakes?

Speaker 3: 35:57

I wouldn't necessarily say they're mistakes. It's definitely lessons learned, but it is ultimately, like you say, when you're working with contractors. Most people aren't handy where they themselves know how to build a house from the ground up, so they have no idea what's really supporting the walls, supporting the floor and all those various things. People just don't really know. So if someone is having to go through a remodel, explain to the contractor whether you're disabled now or playing the age in place at some point.

Speaker 3: 36:23

For instance, when you're remodeling bathroom, go ahead and put full plywood behind the walls of where you're going to put your showers up. If you're going to do a tile shower or put blocking and then have it noted where that blocking is, for later on you can add grab bars to your shower Instead of you having to tear the entire shower wall out to figure out to add in this extra wood that can support the weight of a grab bar, because the last thing anyone wants to do is to lean onto a grab bar and then it pulls through the wall, because if you don't have the right support behind the wall, there's just not there. If it's a case of remodeling as well power chair considerations, that's like driving a golf cart pretty much around the house all day, every day. Can the floor support that added extra weight all around the house and things like that, especially in bathrooms, because you're adding tile on top of already the floor joists that are?

Speaker 1: 37:10

there.

Speaker 3: 37:13

So that's weight on top of weight on top of weight and the floor can't really flex like it normally would, because the power chair itself will make that floor flex a lot more than a normal person just walking on it. So then you're going to have tile breakage. So make sure you have the right size tiles, because if you use a larger format tile it's going to break that tile. So a lot of times you have to use a smaller tile that has that room and a little bit of give and take on those kinds of things of that nature Floor coverings and various things like that. Some people still like oh, carpets are great, not really for.

Speaker 3: 37:39

So it's things of that nature just to really help consider if you're able to do a redesign or a remodel of a home.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Or if you build it from the ground up.

Speaker 3: 37:47

Then, of course, you can already speak to your contractor and make sure they understand, if they're not already into the accessibility and understanding the needs. These are the things that you will need to do. You may need to put the floor joists closer together. Instead of being the standard 16 inches, you may need to go on 12 in some areas or even make them even a little more bulky just to support, like I say, the extra weight of that power chair.

Speaker 2: 38:10

And then in the bathroom, like a really big problem I saw him dealing with was the tile guy came in on the wall tile instead of covering the whole back of the tile with a thin set or something.

Speaker 3: 38:21

With thin set, yeah.

Speaker 2: 38:23

He was doing splotches of it and so you didn't know where those were when the tiles were on the wall. So when he took the grab bars and started to tighten them down to the tile, if it went through the thin set onto the blocking then it was good. But if it went through a blank space, some of that airspace, and then into the blocking, then it would generally tighten up and crack the tile. So he was having cracked tile all over the place trying to put our grab bars in. So that was one that I was just like. I didn't think of that and I was actually watching. The guy put the tile up and watching and I'm like, should you be covering that whole thing? He's oh no, it's okay, it's okay like, this will hold the tile up, it's fine. Well, I guess he knows, I don't know he's the tile guy. And then he comes in and he's oh my gosh.

Speaker 2: 39:09

I was furious, actually he was we had to pull tiles out and, yeah, we had to replace a lot of tiles just for me adding the grab bars.

Speaker 3: 39:16

Because she said when I went to torque down the grab bar it would just crack the tile and I was like why is this tile breaking? It should not be happening. Then I realized like, oh my God, they didn't put full backing buttering is what it's called the entire back of the tile where it's evenly adhered to the wall. Just simple things like that, that a contractor who doesn't know doesn't think about the next tradesman coming behind them. You probably heard that plenty of times about how the framer doesn't think about the plumber and the plumber doesn't think about the electrician, and you know when they're not working together in that end product view of things, one's stepping over the other.

Speaker 1: 39:53

And you know you're having to redo work and things of that nature.

Speaker 1: 39:56

Yeah, I built a brand new bathroom Actually it was like a little room and it was my next, the primary bedroom and I decided to cut a pocket door and make this small little room.

Speaker 1: 40:05

That's really not functional for my wheelchair because I can't really get around, but it'll be great for a bathroom. The bathroom that actually came to my house came with it. I could you get through the doorway and, foolishly enough, I believe the contractors that was going to get done at a certain time period, especially since I took out my behalf to go ahead and order the wheelchair tub and a few other specific things that I knew would meet my needs, and I had already had that coming. What I should have done is paid the money to just widen the doorway to the guest bathroom, because it's out in the hallway and, shock enough, bathroom day get done in four or five days, and I had to move into my house and so I literally, for about an extra four days, was crawling into my bathroom that I did have because I couldn't get my wheelchair in my normal apartment that I moved out of.

Speaker 1: 41:05

I had to crawl into the bathtub normally anyways, because I could not really find a private sector apartment that was accessible.

Speaker 3: 41:14

In your case having we do assessments of people's properties and because I do understand building construction and what can be done, I would have advised the pros and cons and the options and things like that and you can be like, oh yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:28

I was just thinking, oh, I have all the big ticket items bought and they're on the way and they had already worked on the bathroom for two weeks and that's when my lease was going to end and I didn't want to pay to rent out a hotel. Now one question I have for contractors do you have any particular things that somebody should ask a contractor? If you're just, you're new to the disability world and the chances are you're just going to randomly pick a contractor, you may not even know that those contractors that might be experienced in universal design or aging in place You're new. Is there anything that you think would be some good questions to ask?

Speaker 3: 42:08

We have a checklist of things we're going through to provide for folks.

Speaker 2: 42:13

I don't know. It's tough because I will say, anytime I talk to a contractor about this because I'm always scouting around to see who can build for us is what I've noticed is they will all say that they can do it and that they have experience. And it's tough until you really get in and see what's happening. But it's what I have noticed is, if I ask specific questions, like I'm talking about, I'm like, okay, what kind of experience do you have with rolling showers? Because I want to put a channel drain, and so let me see what the response is going to be. And if they're like, okay, channel, and if channel drains are more likely to leak because of this and this, I'm like, okay, they have some kind of clue here. It's different things like that.

Speaker 3: 42:54

For me, like I say it's because I know how to build things like that. For me, like I say it's because I know how to build, I'll ask high level questions, yeah, and then, according to their response, I'll ask a more detailed question and then it'll get to the point where I realize I've gone above their head. Or if they're able to just expand on things and tell me the actual reasons why. And all these things Not, oh, this will leak. Well, actually, none of these should ever leak. If you're a professional, you know what you're doing. That's just true, and I don't care what you put in.

Speaker 2: 43:22

Well, it's going to take some extra work and you can ask deeper questions in that way, and that's the thing.

Speaker 3: 43:27

The regular person, yeah, a regular person wouldn't necessarily know but also ask for references as far as someone's house house that you can actually, maybe even a project you can actually possibly go see an accessible shower or whatever renovation yes, he is great or she is great or whatever it may be.

Speaker 3: 43:43

People have no problem touting that because they know how rare that is to get a contractor actually who understands their needs and can do those things. So don't be shy about asking questions and asking for references and generally going on. I'm not sure if you guys I'm sure you do have next door in your city, but most cities have the next door site and just go on and ask across your community and then people will give you some recommendations and just be diligent and asking and putting one against the other, not in a negative way. But you need to find the right partner in this because it really is a partnership, because everyone has very specific needs with their disability. And then you need to find find that right person is willing to work with you because they appreciate your situation. It's not just about the bottom dollar for them. All the time they really want to do a quality job for you as an individual because you just don't have the options that everyone else has.

Speaker 2: 44:30

And will they ask you specific questions about what your needs are and what you plan to do with this space? Or are they going to sit back and say, oh, we got it, we got it, we got it.

Speaker 3: 44:42

And then like trust me kind of thing, and also I'll say she and I were putting together genuinely a checklist of various things that definitely are at a high level for people to really ask your contractor when you're interviewing contractors, but also when you choose a contractor just some things for you to make sure you're checking in with them on and going over with them so they're not necessarily just guessing and making decisions on their own. That may not be exactly what you need in the end. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 45:06

More advice as far as that's concerned. Stay on top of it and check in a little more frequently. Maybe let's have a daily recap of what's going on and where we are, as opposed to I'll see you next week or the week after and check in further down the line in the project. Things can be addressed quicker. And because if you let them run wild is what we also have noticed is, if there's not somebody there to answer a specific question, then they're going to make their own decision so they can keep going and stay on track or move to the next job. And, man, if you let that run too far, then it's just it's like.

Speaker 1: 45:41

What is this? I actually have used pinster for the visualness to give visual examples, because both for the individual who may be like this is my need. But I don't know what it should look like. It's not everybody's familiar. What is the difference between a wheel and shower and then a wheelchair bathtub like I have? Where's the bathtub and the door? Maybe a walk-in bath? I have a wheelchair bathtub and that's the door that opens up the full length. It has a built-in seat. I like my soaps, especially when I kayak. That's my number one thing I do. When I get back after dinner on Sunday, that's what I'm doing. I'm taking my little jet little bathtub.

Speaker 1: 46:23

You may want to have the ability to soak in a bathtub as a wheelchair user, but you may not know what that looks like, and so pinstripe is a really good way of like just googling that and then having the images, and then some experience I've had is try to print that out and have that image literally taped in the rooms that you are, and that way it doesn't, things doesn't get lost. In translation, the general contractor is not there to be communicative, as you said, danielle, to check in every day those individuals that may be working on X, y and Z. They may not actually have any experience, so just know they need to put up those tile right. But if you have an image where you have grab bars and you post it up there, you might get lucky and you make sure that you say, hey, general contract, make sure, tell them that this is what we're hoping this looks like and that's just really cheap.

Speaker 1: 47:17

You just print something off and it can be a lifesaver not always, so always. I totally hear what you're saying. Check in as much as you can, but people have lives and unless you are the general contractor yourself, you're disabled, you're the homeowner, you have that experience you're always going to rely on and you always have other obligations. And a lot of individuals like isn's not one pain the general contractor for right, and that's a fair argument and I always say, yeah, but an ounce of prevention is worth how to maneuver right.

Speaker 1: 47:47

So if you can't check in every day here, just print out what you hope it looks like and and hopefully that helps and sometimes it does. I know that has helped him with myself, like I know that the bathtub they were going to move into a different corner and the problem would be is that I couldn't wheel around based when the toilet was going to be, and luckily I had printed out an image and had a wheelchair and someone who you know go on a totem pole. Just the installer was had asked is a wheelchair user going to be using this? And then they gave me a call and be like hey, we would think about moving this, but can you wheelchair get around it? No, I can't. That's why I told you all to put it in the corner. And so that was just an example that maybe I got lucky.

Speaker 1: 48:36

But at the same time, people are very visual and also to that point.

Speaker 3: 48:41

if people are busy, that's why you hire the contractor to do the work, and so you can just continue working to make the money to pay them, but have them at the end of the day.

Speaker 3: 48:50

something that one of my friends says I would have the contractors to actually take pictures of the work that they did and the area they're working on and just send it, and just send it to me with a quick recap 10, nothing super detail. They can look at the pictures and if they had any questions or something didn't quite look right, they could ask questions and then continue to stay in in touch in that way, and it wasn't something that was time consuming for either one of them, you know I was going to talk about the pictures too in that way, and another thing that does is gives them something to look back on, if there are, if you have, what is it durock over your wall space or whatever?

Speaker 2: 49:26

you can see what's behind that, and that is really helpful, to be able to see what's behind, what's on the other side of sheetrock and things that are covered up. It gives you a record of that.

Speaker 1: 49:36

Yeah, I asked that for my dog. When my pet says take care of it, I didn't think about that for the contractor. See, this is why we have these conversations. Totally makes sense. I know I have plenty of text messages, but I didn't say, hey, give me a daily photo shoot.

Speaker 3: 49:51

Everyone has a smartphone nowadays, so there's no excuse, it's no stretch.

Speaker 2: 49:55

And an added benefit is they can take those and use them for their marketing purposes.

Speaker 2: 49:59

Oh, even better If you would like to let them you could always work together in those kinds of ways If you get any resistance find the benefit for them. What is this extra little bit of work? How can it benefit them? And that's the same thing I was thinking when you were talking about you're talking about appraisals and real estate agents and such, when you were talking about you're talking about appraisals and real estate agents and such.

Speaker 2: 50:24

I think that a really big issue that we're dealing with is the myth that having an accessible bathroom decreases the value of the home, when we really need to change the perception of it's increasing the value of the home, and we're going to see that more and more and it's going to make even more sense as more of the baby boomers move into the places that they're going, and it's going to put all of us in a situation to have to deal with parents and it's going to be in our faces a little bit more than it has been. So the time is coming. We just have to change the perceptions and help people understand that it really does make the property more valuable. It does not take away from the value Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 50:56

That is my core principle behind horizontal houses. It's beneficial for the disabled community, for generational wealth, just like anybody else. It also is a backup plan for-.

Speaker 2: 51:10

Something happens to you, like any of us. This could change in a minute.

Speaker 1: 51:16

Yep, and so one of my future process is I'm very fortunate that Prince George's County in the state of Maryland will require 50% of all their new homes built to be universally and inclusive designed.

Speaker 3: 51:33

Starting in 2026.

Speaker 1: 51:35

They're working out the details. I had the privilege in some of my episodes of interviewing the Maryland Builders Association, who came out in support of it to get their perspective, and it got passed just this past September in 2023. And it'll start out. But that will give a great incubator for me. As you said, danielle, one thing I am trying to tackle is not just real estate agents but the whole appraisal process, and so I haven't quite figured it out, but starting in 2026, we will have that little incubator county where new homes will be built and half of them have to be accessible and to see what the costs associated with it, as well as a resale value.

Speaker 1: 52:20

One of the issues is that the questions are just not being asked and they're not being tracked, and if it's not measured, it's not counted right. You can't even find a statistic on disability homeownership If you look behind the numbers. They all base it on how many senior citizens are probably disabled and how many senior citizens are homeowners, and that's how they get out the disability home ownership number, but they exclude anybody that is 18 years and older, and so that number is really not a really accurate number because basically it's just a guesstimation, because the question. Even Pew Center. They're not asking are you disabled and are you a homeowner? They're literally just not asking that question. So how do we tackle the appraisal aspect? How do we make that marketable, as you said, danielle, with the contractors? What is their benefit for them taking those photos and saying, what is the benefit for real estate agents and for the housing need of real estate industry as a whole?

Speaker 2: 53:24

Another tip you can use on that end is what I bet is what you are going to find is, in this neighborhood, that's making 50% accessible, universally designed. You are going to find that the builders start to advertise that they make these houses and that's going to be the first thing that they mentioned is we can do this, we are inclusive, and that's going to start to be their marketing words, and so giving them those marketing words, I think, will help push the process along as well, and that's exactly what we're trying to tackle and then you go ahead to sell those homes.

Speaker 1: 53:57

You build them Like, how do you make sure you get the right people in the homes? You can't just build it and we will come if we don't know about it right. And Danielle, you and I met at this. I believe we met on the spinal cord injury book, the Association for Spinal Cord Injury, and most realtors and housing developers they don't. They don't know those organizations. So I'm intending to fill in the back end and starting to.

Speaker 1: 54:21

But yeah, it's going to be an exciting time, especially since the national Gaylord is technically MGM. It's in Prince George's County. Yeah, there's some real money in the county and so I think they'll also have a ripple effect on accessible short term, because the law just says you got to build it and doesn't. A lot of people with Airbnb and things like that rent out homes and Airbnb just last year started to really advertise and trying to recruit accessible homes to be rented out. Trying to recruit accessible homes to be rented out and within one year of doing that, they increased their search for accessibility by 200%. Where you got MGM as this really expensive casino and hotel and things like that. Now it's also in the same county. That's going to require 50% of the residential homes to be accessible, so I think I'll have a ripple effect into short-term vacation homes. Eventually that's going to be a little bit of a delay. All these things are connected, so I'm super excited.

Speaker 2: 55:28

And that short-term thing you're talking about. There's so many people running side by side and if we could bring it together and Airbnb is a fantastic platform for that Can we get some sort of accessibility levels? Who is this accessible for? And ADA compliance is such a broad term. Where can somebody bring it together to say let's put some concrete levels of accessibility per se and what are some general terminology that can be used, because we're all running side by side and calling them different things.

Speaker 1: 56:00

Yeah, yep, yep. I think 2020 is going to be the decade that, if we look back, a lot of organizations disabled organizations knowing that private sector housing does not need to federally be accessible if it's not funded by a government, and so, as a result of that, they have a lot of disability organization, like the Kelsey organization out of California, this one in North Carolina. There's a whole bunch that are creating their own kind of disability forward building codes say this is what we think it should be. The ADA is not enough. A the ada technically will apply unless it's open to the public or unless the government's funding it, but yet that tends to be. If it's not universal design, it tends to be this right, but that's not enough.

Speaker 1: 56:49

That was really 25 years ago and they're cutting their own manual, their own code and they say use this, it's voluntary and organizations are just popping out of the woodwork. Which is why it's so exciting having a podcast, because I can get people on and say talk about this new design, because everybody has their own little focus and their own unique take on it. And I think it's a really exciting time because we're actually taking ownership of disability, home ownership by creating our own code, even if it's just right now on a voluntary basis, but it certainly is helpful for contractors and real estate agents who want to get in and want to be ahead of the game and they don't have to reinvent the wheel. I think it's commended, danielle, that you went and measured all the ball grabs and the in the wheelchairs at the hospitals, but not everybody had time for that Access to that kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 57:44

Or access exactly, or access. And so these disability organizations are trying to say here's this 20-page or Kelsey's 100-page manual for all kinds of disabilities and we did all the research for you. Feel free to use it. And so I think, while they started a little bit before 2020, I think with COVID and things like that, since they started just a few years, I really think 2020 decade, between 2020 and 2020, will be the decade of the new building code. That, just like the independent living movement was in the late 60s into the 70s. That's my prediction. You heard it first, but we'll wait and see.

Speaker 3: 58:21

When it comes to, like, creating codes or filling a need that genuinely everybody knows, obviously it's not in everyone's interest at the moment to do something about it, but to make sure we have people like yourself and people with varying ranges of disabilities, as well as medical professionals helping make those codes, because it's just, let's say, even other policies that changed, that seemed like at this point just logically made sense, like an all men panel made decisions for women, those kinds of things like that.

Speaker 3: 58:53

Well, yeah, we want to give aid to this country or whatever in Africa and all the rest, but no one was made the decision about what was going to give aid to this country or whatever in Africa and LRS, but no one was made the decision about what was going to be done from that country. Those kinds of things like that. You have to have the people who are going to be impacted in the room making, helping make those decisions and at least giving the questions, asking the questions and giving the feedback that's going to directly impact them. And the thing about codes once they're made, it's hard to change them. So if we can have that upfront impact on the decision being made for these codes and why they are valuable and how they actually will work in real world application.

Speaker 3: 59:27

On paper, a lot of things look great and real world application implementation is something completely different. We all know that Me being an engineer myself, I know this is between an architect and then the engineer and the builder. We're all different people but ultimately something looks great on paper, but that engineer no, that's great. Architect, but no, we can't build that, that's going to kill somebody.

Speaker 3: 59:50

Yep my father's an electrical and mechanical engineer and so is my father's Quick conversations. There's always an interesting conversation when you sit with those perspectives of people and talking about the exact same thing.

Speaker 1: 59:57

Yeah, I love this conversation. Do either of you have anything else that you would like to share?

Speaker 3: 1:00:07

No, I mean, like I say, I'm grateful for you having us on and having this platform and you know it's helpful for us to, also because we want to start doing a similar thing and, just like I say, bringing this community together and connecting people however we can.

Speaker 2: 1:00:21

That's really where we're moving toward is being the connector, because we're finding that there's a bigger impact in bringing more voices together rather than just trying to do it in our bubble and then trying to bring people into the bubble and moving more into the connector aspect. So anytime I will say almost anytime I talk to somebody with a disability that finds out I'm doing handicap accessible real estate or dealing with that at all, oh my gosh, I want to do that too. Oh, I would love to have a vacation home that I could use and that's accessible and that I could rent out and add to. And it's almost everybody I talk to and so we're like, hey, what can we do, maybe to bring all of those people who really want this and help them have it. And that is going to. That's spreading our word, that's spreading the message a lot more, a lot faster than we can do it in our bubble. So that's where we're trying to think now, and it's okay. How can we bring our knowledge together, how can we bring the right people together and how can we expand that out and help them too? And on the side of we help the disabled start businesses as well. It all comes together where some people can't see how it comes together.

Speaker 2: 1:01:37

I'm like no, we can take our accessibility and we can bring it into this other world. We can help them create their real estate that the people that want to create their real estate. And then there's another group of people who are having trouble with making money or having a business or going back into the job they had before or having an inclusive employer. This we can now take this program and give it to them to sell and they can have half of the money. Now we have these people over here that can spread the word with us, and they may not even be, they may not want to go buy a piece of real estate and do that, but it's still helping the big cause which is like oh yeah, let's do this and I can make some money doing it too. So we're trying to think in ways like, in those kinds of ways. So how can we get this out to more people and expand it? How can we bring those voices together and create that community?

Speaker 3: 1:02:31

Yeah, the network and just sharing in the ideas and the individual passions of the specific things within it, but it's all going towards a greater cause, the bigger good, and it's something to pass on to others. No point keeping it all with us, and when we pass away, all of our knowledge goes away. But if we're able to share it, then it's out there and people can just build and expand on it.

Speaker 2: 1:02:51

And ultimately, we still only know this much and there's this much over here that we don't know. So if we can work together with these people, then we can take it all and make the whole process better.

Speaker 1: 1:03:01

We'll say. Industry is a $16 trillion industry in the United States. I think there's plenty of room for everybody. It's that much. I'm like Yep, it's that much. That's why we had a recession, when the housing market crashed. I commend you both. And how does someone get ahold of you if they are in the Atlanta Georgia area?

Speaker 2: 1:03:27

Well, we have our accessible suites site so you can look that up. We have, we both have our email addresses through that. So we have Danielle at accessible suites and Basio at accessible suites, so that's an easy way to find us, if need be. Great, all right. Thank you so much, thank you so much. We really appreciate what you are doing and for having us on.

Speaker 1: 1:03:48

HorizontalHousescom is the hub for all things related to disability home ownership. You will find my blog, this podcast, my book and how my consulting services can help real estate agents or housing developers market and tap into the largest minority group, the disability community. Please help me continue this exploration of disability home ownership by connecting through my Facebook page. Remember, sharing our collective experiences will allow us each to lower the kitchen sink but raise the bar for disability home ownership. Thank you.