How to help your tween girl through puberty with Kaz Cooke

Got a daughter? Kaz Cooke, Author of Girl Stuff 8-12 years (and many other amazing life-stage books) shares her tips about how to guide your tween girl through body changes, periods as well as inappropriate comments from relatives. Throughout the episode, she emphasises the importance of normalising puberty, and that the experience and timing is different for all girls. And it's all normal. 

Kaz says: "Do not let anyone in the family comment on your child's body changes. Do not let brothers and sisters tease each other. You need to have a very strong hard rule. Often family members who feel like they have a right to comment of girls bodies - Uncles, Aunts and often grandparents. They'll say 'oh you've put on weight', or there's a judgement built into "Oh you've shot up". It's astonishing that people in extended families might make comments like 'Oh, you're growing out the front now'. "

About Kaz Cooke
Kaz is your friend for life, her books helping generations of girls and women with their health and life stages. She constantly updates her books which have become classics, reassuring and entertaining more than two generations of Australians.

She began her career as a cadet journalist at The Age newspaper, and soon lurched into other areas, producing her cartoon strip Hermoine the Modern Girl; and the first of many columns and books. She still writes things, and talks in public and on the radio. And on the phone.

Kaz lives in Melbourne and often works in her pyjamas (usually without leaving the house). Her hobbies include reading, sewing in a straight line and shouting at the television news.

Kaz recommends
In this episode, Kaz recommends the following documentary about body image:
Embrace is a social impact documentary by Taryn Brumfitt that explores the serious issue of body loathing, inspiring us to change the way we feel about ourselves and think about our bodies.

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Transcript

Unknown Speaker  0:02  
Welcome to The Parenting couch with Rachael Chappell and Sarah Levett honest conversations about what parenting is really like, because let's be real, it can be hard, proudly brought to you by North Shore moms.com Zara here

Unknown Speaker  0:18  
welcome to another episode of the parenting couch Podcast. I'm Rachel chapel founder of North Shore mums and also a mum to three girls aged 710 and 12.

Unknown Speaker  0:28  
Wow, you're so brave. I'm Sarah Levett, former brekkie radio host comedian and also a mum to just one single mum note, daughter Scarlett

Unknown Speaker  0:41  
we both have Scarlets we do we have a scarlet each.

Unknown Speaker  0:46  
How crazy is that? Anyway, she's.

Unknown Speaker  0:48  
It's a beautiful name. It's a beautiful name. I love it. It is a beautiful name. I agree. Well done us. Thanks. So my five. Name choice, her proof.

Unknown Speaker  1:00  
This one is tricky to introduce. Because our next guest is she's just been around for such a long time and done so many amazing things. And you'll know her name, because she started out in journalism actually, and has written so many incredible books, podcasting and writes and does interviews and so it's hard to build it up how it should be. But please welcome and thank you for joining us cares onto the parenting couch. We're so grateful to have you today.

Unknown Speaker  1:32  
Oh, you're so lovely. And I think you should introduce me as Oh, this woman just wandered in.

Unknown Speaker  1:38  
Who is Cass cook? As cook Yeah. Welcome. Welcome to the Virtual parenting couch thing clearly we could all sit together Salovey

Unknown Speaker  1:50  
are red. The kids actually sits around and pajamas all the time. Is that right? Cuz?

Unknown Speaker  1:55  
Well, siblings, it's a nice he has been working from home. I do recall my daughter is now just out of her teens. But I do recall quite a few days at the school gate thinking of only people knew what was under this overcoat. And it's not lingerie.

Unknown Speaker  2:15  
I love it. I love it. Well, cuz you've written so many books that have been with us through those big life stages up the duff when we're pregnant babies and toddlers for those crazy years of raising small humans and girl stuff. And that's what we thought we'd focus on today in this podcast, because Sarah and I both have twins.

Unknown Speaker  2:37  
Okay, so we should just tell people that there is also girl stuff 13 plus. And that's the one that has more stuff about drinking and drugs and girls have got to know how to say no to stop what they need to know before they say yes. And and it's also got stuff like, you know, consent and getting paid part time job and all that stuff goes will hit before you know that they're there because other kids and stuff on their phones and all of that. But yes, eight to 12 We're looking at that book is really for girls for their first periods, and then information, you know, like age appropriate mental health and a lot of stuff about friends and bullies, which I think is a big thing. Healthy. So just to start them off, right. So they don't get plunged into, you know, terrible body image. knots. Absolutely. Anyway. Yes. So that's where we are today. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  3:30  
I mean, there's so much we could talk about. I mean, I just thought you know what I'm going to look in and see what the issues are. I've got three daughters myself, Sarah's got one daughter, who's nine. And there's just so many questions. I guess a lot of us particularly in the North Shore, mom's Facebook group, we face they joined us with babies, and now those babies are tweens. So we're all going through that a lot of us are going through that phase of, you know, body changes and all those and friendship issues, as you mentioned, as well. And one of the interesting questions I saw recently was early puberty, puberty. So hitting it in about seven, you know, actually getting those changes very, very early on and parents being really worried about what to do about that. Is that in inverted commas, normal? Should they be talking to the doctor about it? How can they prepare their child if they're developing a lot earlier than their peers?

Unknown Speaker  4:25  
That's really true. And girls can get their periods as young as nine and 10 as well. And one of the most important things I think that parents can do is to normalize it. I hear so often from girls who say that when they said that they had got their first period or mentioned they had blood on their undies, or they said mom, you know, I've got hair under my arm or down there, and quite often completely without a filter, and have you not thought about it. A parent will say something like, oh my god that's too early or already Man, oh my god, you know. And so that can really stick with a kid. Because every kid who goes through the changes of puberty thinks something weird is happening to them. Because it's weird for them, it's the first time when you get to hit your 20s 30s. And you've had so many periods, usually that, oh, you know how to manage not having them if you don't want to, that you forget that everything is new. So all those you know, breasts budding sort of changes. And, and that's what, that's what I explained in eight to 12, which is, which is written for girls. So it's written in a voice for girls, all of this information. So I'm really happy for parents to read it and know what's in there. And a lot of parents do read it with their kids. But it's not a parenting book. It's a book for girls to normalize things and let them know what what to expect. The first thing I'd say is, if you've got a kid at seven or eight with some signs, and as often here, it is worth taking them to the GP just to get a checkup. But it's, you know, I mean, it you can also not like it's so normal. Yeah, but I understand that anxiety is a big thing for people.

Unknown Speaker  6:09  
So why would why would you take them to the GP? If they're getting here at seven? I mean, that they can't do anything? Is it just more of a reassurance? Yeah, it was me checking hormones,

Unknown Speaker  6:18  
they probably wouldn't actually. But particularly for an anxious parent, they might just want to rule out an early cream, you know, which means hormone, right? Okay. But it's also cultural, like a lot of when you get here, and though and it's also body shape and size, they believe has something to do with it. And we think that when girls first hit what's called the monarch, which means the first period, right, that has moved in history, it used to be later. And it's later in gymnasts and athletes and people who have a perhaps in a lesser healthy body weight range because of hard training. So some, for example, a lot of gymnasts experience getting their first period at 1819 20. Because they don't have enough body weight to trigger an unhealthy body weight, or normal body weight. And the other thing I say to parents is, once those changes start happening, one of the things and the body changes visible to the girl herself or to other people, it's really I cannot stress this is almost the thing I would want to say more than anything else. Do not let anyone in the family comment on it. Either way, do not let brothers and sisters tease each other about you need to have a very strong hard rule a lot in a lot of families. In particular girls talk about being teased by brothers. And very often, people who think they've got a right to comment on children's bodies, uncles aren't often grandparents will we'll talk about our youth put on weight, or it's almost like there's a judgement built into you've shot up is where you're taller. But oh, I mean, I It's astonishing that people in families will say extended families will say things like, you'll see, you know, growing up the front now or whatever, whatever way they SCHUCHART it. And then within smaller families, right, not rather than the extended family, there are often comments like, Oh, you've grown out of this. And now you need this. And with a sense of, you know, I try to explain to parents, and I didn't think about it till I started researching girl stuff. But I actually I think I might have been researching babies and toddlers. But you know how that between when your baby is a baby, and then being a toddler, it's only like a year and a half. And suddenly you're dealing with this thing that is, you know, like double or triple in size, doing completely different stuff. And puberty is sort of like that, too. One of the things that happens is that kids girls need more calcium and iron and stuff like that, so they can be hungry, and they're often admonished for being too hungry or you know, yeah, so that's, that's something to get, you know, like that to talk about food as fuel and what you need and, and also the skeleton doubles in size between being a kid and an adult so that the teenage years, right, so they hear mums saying stuff like, oh, you know, don't fit into any of my clothes and I've gotten out it's awful. I've got to go on diet, and that they internalize all of that. So that stuff like going up sizes. That has it's really important to normalize that for girls because they're so self conscious. It's the first time they've realized that they've gone out in this bit and they've got it looks like they've gone in in that bit and and then they've got them media and social social media and all of that, telling them they have to have a flat stomach, which is actually not natural for most girls.

Unknown Speaker  10:08  
Last night, my nine year old daughter and this works in reverse looked at me and my Nadia went, you look like you're pregnant mom was like, Thanks, you really building my confidence?

Unknown Speaker  10:19  
That's the kind of stuff where but that that can do with a longer conversation. Yes. Which is this, you know, like, sit down and watch. Is it embrace the Cheran Bromford documentary, which is, you know, really fantastic about Muslims and bodies changing shape. That's a really great resource, it's really important to say to girls, my body is different from dads or a band or boys or whatever, because of these hormonal things, which are there in case you want to have a baby, you don't have to have a baby, but it's one of the reasons that you know, so you can talk about those things. I wouldn't let that go. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't make it into a telling me that I look like I've got a big tummy is bad.

Unknown Speaker  11:06  
I didn't say anything. I actually it was nine o'clock at night. No, and I'm not even nothing. I did, I didn't internalize it a minute. Well, I'm not feeling so good about that. I have spoken to my daughter. And then I've mentioned to her that the actually the pouch that I have is a result of carrying her, my daughter is looking to go into puberty early. Because I did I had my period at nine back in the 80s, which was quite young for then obviously. And so my mum was very open with me because she also got her period very young at 10. And so even though when I got mine, mum had talked to me about it and was quite open, she still thought, wow, this is so young took me to the doctor. And the doctor looked at her and said, Have a look. She has pubic hair. So that's definitely her period. It's nothing else. So definitely worth going to the GP because my mom had actually a liver condition, or kidney infection, actually, when she was young, and that was genuinely a medical condition and wasn't a you know, to start with. She went on to have, you know, early went into puberty early, but my daughter has definitely got breast but she's nine and we'll be going in. And that's

Unknown Speaker  12:14  
I just want to I just want to again, normalize this. It's not early, it's not nice replace early, normal. Because if you look at it, like the average as 11 or 12. Yeah, it's still the range is still from nine to 15. Okay, so So within nine and 15, that's normal. And so I would sort of encourage people might be early for them might feel early for them. And it might be earlier than the average. But the average is only the middle number of a completely normal range. Yeah, great. So it's a really good, that's really shine. This thing might happen in that kid might say to them, This is why we've got to tell girls about this sort of stuff early, so they don't get completely freaked out when and think they're dying, or, you know, when when it happens. And I think I think as parents we often think, oh, kids know, everything, it's all they see everything on their foot, but they're not actually seeing instruction about their own bodies, they're seeing stuff because people want to sell them something people want to be superior and feel better. So actually, that's why I think a lot of parents like girls stuff eight to 12, because they can put it straight into their hands. And people know their kids, right. So people know whether their kid wants to scurry off into the bedroom and read it for themselves. They might be 11 or 12. And, you know, really crash hop reader. Or it might be better. I know a lot of mums read the book with with their girls, especially that you know those the first bits about what to expect. But yeah, and it's a bit like menopause, right? Like everyone talks about menopause as your period stopping, it's just like a tiny one of the symptoms. And getting your first period is only a one thing about becoming a teenager and getting older. I think we've associated also puberty and with sexuality often. So you know, and so that's why we think it's early when when it happens at nine, but actually, as you say it's been happening like that for many, many people and it's completely normal. And that's why in the book, I make a point of saying this. This does not make you a woman like in some families, they will you know, they want to go into the forest with a recorder and say My darling daughter has become a woman. This is yeah, they're going by quarter and b You know, I just this is I don't need a celebration. I just need to feel okay about it. Yeah, it doesn't mean you have to go out and you know, get a job and start blow drying your hair. Yeah, yeah, right

Unknown Speaker  14:59  
now the right advice. And it's so great, different ways of looking at it. And I just wanted to quickly just touch on as well about sort of sanitary the way to go with sort of this new wave of sanitary style stuff. I mean, I was very much sponges, big pads, like all that. And I thought I'll experiment with it, you know, the undesigned, that exists now. And I'll see what that's like for me. And I've moved across that way. And I wanted to try it a bit to be able to sort of introduce that to my daughter, because I thought, it's so much less intense and in your face. And also, I mean, it's better for the environment, of course, as well, all these things true. But what

Unknown Speaker  15:39  
if you're putting your pet in your face? I think, really, you've got to have a good hard look at yourself and your technique. But no, but quite right. Because, you know, sometimes the young girls getting their first period of tour, or you know, or someone will say to them, I need to have a tampon and put that up there. And that can be very scary for young girls and not appropriate for them. I think a lot of people are trying to say, you know, girls have to save the planet, they should use a moon cup, I just don't think that's appropriate for young girls at primary school to serve. You know, yeah, I agree. I think pads, I think, you know, being led by your daughter, you know, what does she prefer, you know, get a get a pair of those undies, and then if that, you know, she likes that, you know, she can, you can get another couple of pairs and rotate them. But for some people, you know, like the public nature in a in an extended family of how things are washed can be a problem. Disposal can also be a problem, girls will very much want to be private about it. And that has to be respected too. I think there's a fine balance between normalizing something, but also not saying to a girl, well, if you want another pad, come and ask me, I'll just be here with Auntie Velma on my car playing club. And it's. So you've got to be able to give girls you know, their own supply of pairs that they can take to school, having their room, you know, give them control over it. And the other thing is that different daughters will have different not only different ideas, but not everyone, a lot of people do get their first period at the same age as their mom or grandma, but a lot of people don't. So that's where normalizing the range is important, because you might have one daughter that goes at nine and one who goes at 12 to get her first period. And there might be a complete mixture of all the other symptoms like body hair, and mood swings and stuff. So some girls might be you know, because they're doing swimming might want to, you know, learn how to use many tampons earlier and away they go. It's just better every generation, right? Because my grandmother was using rags. Yeah, yeah. And we shouldn't forget that it's only two generations of disposable period products. Yeah. Amazing.

Unknown Speaker  18:02  
So guess what? When should we start talking to our kids about puberty? Like, what's kind of the ideal age? And how do we broach it because I know they do it, they learn about it in school, I think around year five, we should be talking to them about it. So it's not a shock. And they were all sitting around giggling in class and being horrified. But the things they're learning? How can we talk to our kids about it. And when

Unknown Speaker  18:27  
I'd say from seven or eight, it also they might be to it, you know, they might have a symptom. I don't want to call it a symptom because it sounds like it's a, you know, disease or just a sign or a change. So basically, when they're ready to ask, and they will be mortified. That's a great word that you use, because, you know, and there is a lot of stuff like it's often better for a mum or a dad or an auntie, depending on the relationships to talk to a girl first. And then to be able to give them something I'm not saying it has to be girl stuff, age 12. But, you know, give them something that's age appropriate, that will answer their questions in case they're too shy to ask you. Or they they you know, this can mean a number of motivations for that, right? There's the sort of kid who goes, I know everything, and I don't need you to tell me anything. And they all go through that at some stage. And then there's also the I'm, I'm frightened, you know, I need to know I'm a bit anxious, I need to know everything before it happens, so that I'm prepared. And then there's other kids who might just want to know when it happens. All right, well, this has finally happened. What do I use again, but every parent is an expert on their own kid. And I would also say totally divorce it from sex and growing up, you know, it's not about becoming a woman. It's not about getting ready to have babies. It's just something it's just something that your body goes through so that later in life It's already if you want to use it, and that's the sort of way that I talk about it in. In my book,

Unknown Speaker  20:06  
it's a terrifying thought for children, because that's exactly what my 12 year old said, she was like, I don't want to have my period because it means I can have a baby. And I'm like, you don't have a baby at the age of 12. It doesn't mean to say that, that's when it happens. Yeah, yeah. But it's just kind of reminding them, I guess that it's your body, getting ready for those things that are going to happen later in life. And

Unknown Speaker  20:32  
like, it's like some, I don't think it's a kids get hold of, you know, like a part of something you've told them, and they believe it. So just important to check in again, and find ways to say, so what do you think's going to happen? Or what do you think you'll do, if that happens, rather than imposing it all and expecting them to remember because honestly, in their brain, a bomb has gone off, and they're going, Yeah, it'd be like, I have to have sex with a poem. And so, and it's also not freaking out. And this goes for later on for drugs, sex, they come to you, and they tell you, you know, they've been offered heroin or a party or their friend is pregnant, or you've got to just really try as a parent to go, that must have been really weird for you. And then rather than going, Oh, my God, I'm calling the police, and you're never allowed out of the house again, because then they're not going to tell you. And you're having all those real estate ads. They say, you know, Mom was split level residents with a parents retreat. And I just think do not retreat from your tweens night, they still need you, you know, they can still be they've got a period, there's still got Teddy in the bed. It's really important to let them be themselves, but also not to abandon them. And I think a lot of I think it's important for dads to to know that they can be part of normalizing it. And one friend, I thought did an absolutely brilliant thing. Like because her daughter didn't want to talk to dad about periods or anything. But the mum got the dad to buy some period products at the supermarket and bring them home in his hand. Got them? I don't know whether he you know, and just put them on the bench and say they go to the mum got those for you. And I just thought what a brilliant way. Yeah, normalizing and also teaching boys, it's really important. Some of the same six schools, I think boys just think girls are freaky. So it's really important for boys to know this stuff, too. But you know, those conversations can be separate. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  22:39  
it's just a small thing that you can do is you say that can just normalize the whole process. Yeah, you know, Dad doesn't necessarily need to talk to the child about it, but they can help them out. And they're there

Unknown Speaker  22:50  
to not have an adverse reaction. You know, I think that's the thing that we were experienced, you know, in our own teenage years is how it would be when we did become in intimate relationships with boys what their response would be when they were teenagers to periods, you know, and that whole thing that were the you know, and then the sooner girls learn, like that men can have a more positive, you know, way of looking at it, the better.

Unknown Speaker  23:19  
And the other thing is that sexuality is so much more fluid. Now, the next generation is so much better, that we're going to have so many more girls who are very happy to say that they're bisexual or lesbian or pansexual, or whatever will not matter what their parents think.

Unknown Speaker  23:37  
Yep. I'm looking forward to

Unknown Speaker  23:42  
moving on. I've got another question from one of our members. She said my almost 11 year old took me by surprise today and asked if she could shave her legs. When is a good age to start shaving? And when is it safe to start laser? Well,

Unknown Speaker  24:01  
it was in the 20th century that hair removal companies are doing depilatory creams as well as waxes and shaves and stuff. But they started targeting teenagers in the 60s 70s and 80s to widen their market. So before that, it was very normal and all kids had all girls would have had body hair. If you look back at pictures of people like the queen mother, they never even pluck their eyebrows or not. The cultural change of expectation is really driven by people trying to sell you stuff and social media. So what happens is that 11 year old might be the first in her class to get here. And so she feels different and weird and probably mean people are commenting on it, because that's the nature of horrible bullies and people trying to make themselves better. Again, that's a balance if you can find a way to make her feel Oh, okay about that. And that she doesn't need to get out of it like social media and having a phone, I'd get away with it and not having a phone. I mean, I get away with it as long as you can. Yeah. And it's also worth talking to girls about how what's happening in their friendship group, or even their mums friendship group is not how the whole world goes. So there are a lot of places where people leave their underarm hair, don't shave their legs. But again, we are having boys say stuff on their first sexual encounter, like why have you got have it, because they've been looking at, you know, pornography, and don't even know what a normal young girl's body looks like. So, again, I would divorce it from being attractive, I think that's really important to get across the message that you don't have to be hairless to be attractive or to be a girl. But I will also say that for some girls, depending on their cultural heritage, and their hormonal situation, they might have really obvious really dark hair. And perhaps even I know for some girls, it's, you know, they've, they're forced to do school swimming. And they've got these, a map of Tasmania, which is going to Antarctica. And so it's all on show, and they're modifying when, you know, I don't know, a laser company that would do laser before anyone's 18. I'm not even sure if it's legal. And also, it's one of those things where this is how rich people look, right? Like, like, laser, and it's tricky. And I think there are different degrees of it. And it's got to be an individual situation. But I would hate to think that a girl is going to a mum saying I want to shave my legs and the mums going? Well, yes, you should. Because otherwise, you're not going to be attractive. Again, you know your kid best. And honestly, they will grab someone's shaver and have a crack. If you can get them into sport and dance, or drama, or art or something that they do with their body that isn't just being looked at, I think to be able to. And something that they enjoy is fun, rather than you know, you have to win this, I think getting girls to understand that their bodies are changing with them. And as they grow, their brain will grow. And it will all make sense. It's just a bit weird when it starts, but your body is there to do all these other amazing things, I think, if it can. And that's why I think you do still have to very much curate and understand what your kids in the tween years are looking at online, you know, all the videos and the Instagrams and whatever the new platforms will be because it won't be tick tock in a minute, what they're looking at, but also what they're making and putting out there. So those are good conversations to have as well. And I reckon it's important for I mean, you're not technically supposed to be on social media to your 13. But a lot of kids are but that means that a lot of them are being exposed to sexual ideas, ideas of what being beautiful is ideas of what being acceptable is that just have no place in a 10 or 11 year olds mind, you know, let alone any of us really, but you know what I'm

Unknown Speaker  28:22  
glad? Well, amazing. Advice. Great chat Kaz, really grateful that you could set aside the time for us today. And make sure you go to koat.com.au, because that's where you can of course, check out more of Kas, but also all the books that she's written over time and the latest one, you're doing it wrong. Sounds amazing. I can't wait to get my hands on that one and have a read as well.

Unknown Speaker  28:48  
It'll make you laugh, but it might make you a bit cross as well. You might just, you know, throw a bit of crockery and come back to it every now and again. Wow. Well, because it's about all the bad and bonkers advice that women have been given over the years. That's another thing. It's great to share some of that stuff with your daughters to like, look what they used to tell us to do in the 18th century. Oh, that's right. Kim Kardashian saying the same thing now. Right. Oh,

Unknown Speaker  29:16  
yeah. I'm gonna be adding that to my Kindle. Is that on Kindle off? Yes, it is. You know, you've been doing it a long time. Okay, so you've got such 103 What you said rising Stuka such a youthful voice lovely to speak to you. All right.

Unknown Speaker  29:42  
Bye. Oh, my God. Awesome. So funny. So great. Rachel. I love cats cook.

Unknown Speaker  29:50  
She's amazing.

Unknown Speaker  29:51  
Yeah. And don't forget to be able to keep following Kaz and everything she does or or any of her fantastic books care. is google.com.au is where you need to go. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker  30:03  
it really is your one stop shop for all things. Puberty when we're talking about girl stuff eight to 12. I know Like honestly, we've got a copy at home. And we've had it for the last few years. I got it when my first was eight and now the second daughter is onto and it's just as she says, it's, it's written for the kids so they can dip in and out of it as they need, but so good to get that firsthand advice from her as well. Hey, awesome. Thank you so much for listening to our interview with Kaz cook. If you like what you heard and you want to hear more of it, be sure to follow or subscribe to the parenting couch on your favorite podcast platform. We're also on the socials, Instagram and Facebook. So again, search the parenting couch podcast, or North Shore moms where we'll be announcing latest episodes latest guests. Thanks for tuning in and we'll be back in two weeks time on

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