Pinky McKay is inspired by her passion to see ‘every mother with a baby in her arms and a smile on her face'. Pinky is one of Australia’s most recognised and respected breastfeeding experts, an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC), and best-selling author of four parenting books.
Rachel and Sarah welcomed Pinky onto The Parenting Couch, to share her wonderful advice to new mums, with her beautiful compassion, humour and wisdom. The episode covers:
Free E-Books from Pinky McKay
Essential Details
#theparentingcouch #theparentingcouchpodcast #parenting #northshoremums
Pinky McKay is inspired by her passion to see ‘every mother with a baby in her arms and a smile on her face'. Pinky is one of Australia’s most recognised and respected breastfeeding experts, an International Board Certified Lactation Consultant (IBCLC), and best-selling author of four parenting books.
Rachel and Sarah welcomed Pinky onto The Parenting Couch, to share her wonderful advice to new mums, with her beautiful compassion, humour and wisdom. The episode covers:
Free E-Books from Pinky McKay
Essential Details
#theparentingcouch #theparentingcouchpodcast #parenting #northshoremums
Welcome to The Parenting couch with Rachael Chappell and Sarah Levett honest conversations about what parenting is really like, because let's be real, it can be hard, proudly brought to you by North Shore Mums.
Sarah 0:19
High and welcome to another episode of the parenting couch. I'm Sarah Levett
Rachel 0:23
and I am Rachel Chappell from North Shore Mums. Today we are thrilled to be joined by Pinky McKay. She's one of Australia's most recognised and respected breastfeeding experts. She's a best selling author of four titles. And what we love about her is she specialises in gentle parenting styles that really look at mums natural instincts to respond to their babies rather than crazy routines. So Pinky, welcome to The Parenting Couch.
Pinky 0:53
Thank you for having me. It's a privilege.
Rachel 0:56
It is so lovely to have you here. I thought perhaps to start by hearing your journey because, you know, I've been reading a lot about you. And you know, you've had babies in the 70s and 80s and 90s. You're a mom of five and a grandmother of four. So how did you get to being Pinky McKay that we know and love today?
Pinky 1:17
Well, I guess I had my first baby, obviously only person in the 70s. I knew because he was born here in Melbourne, past three months, that was still breastfeeding and I had a pretty rough start like he'd been a NICU baby was nine pounds born he got an infection just after birth. And, you know, that was the days when they kept babies in the nursery. And when he went down to the humidity crib, the fattest baby and the humidity crib. I wasn't allowed to touch him, you know, but I'd sneak my hand through the incubator things we didn't know as much about the importance of touch and skin to skin and things like that. But my instinct sort of kicked in on a few days of looking at that nursery thinking, this is my baby, you know, I can touch my baby like that. So and they were blaming my breast milk on causing his jaundice that he had, but it was actually an infection that had caused that. So every fourth hour on his right side, they'd poke a bottle into the incubator. And that was it. So you know, I've talked to him and saying to women in my crappy voice, but that was it. And then when I moved back to New Zealand, I'm actually originally from New Zealand, my husband's in Australia, and we moved over to New Zealand, when he was about nine or 10 months old. Now remember, it was the 70s I had a good 1950s mother who told me that if I kept breastfeeding my child, my husband wouldn't care to look at and he would run off with someone else.
Sarah 2:47
Oh, my goodness
Pinky 2:54
told us to look after our men, you know, and not let that fade between us. So which never ever added up to me. I thought he's a grown up to you know, he can love it or lump it. But anyway, so far, he's Yes, anyway, which along to that literally when my son was about a year old to find out how to wean him because I had no clue how this was never gonna happen anyway, because this kid was, you know, quite a little movie addict. And it was a really handy mother. flop it out and the kids safe. And we've done a lot of traveling around. And, you know, it just, it just worked as a, you know, how so convenient.
Unknown Speaker 3:35
So convenient. By then. I mean, you have a rough start, but you get through it. And then you just go well, I don't know what I would do with this child. If I wasn't, you know, I didn't ever boo to shut him up at times. They are really loved. It's me. And they were kids. It was in the evening. And there were still kids there in their pyjamas, you know, one and two year olds, and we were going to actually have to win him. So he waited during my next pregnancy. And then yeah, so I ended up having five more kids. And I ended up becoming a group leader, counsellor with electronic and then I moved back to Australia when I had my third baby. And once again, there was this isolation. You know, I went to a nursing mothers meeting, and they told us this is our night out without our children and she was only six months old. I didn't know what I was going to do with a six month old if I went out at night because it was so easy to just take the baby with you. They didn't disturb anybody else. You know, it was on me. I wasn't asking anyone else to look after my child or be inconvenienced by my child. And I even attended a conference in Sydney where there were beautiful pictures of breastfed babies all around this hotel room and my baby was on my lap and I was asked to go and put her into the crash kids six month old baby because they've gone up to demonstrate a pump created by a New Zealand scientist who, you know, paid for me to fly out for Sydney with my baby and demonstrate it but anyway, I came back in and I've met the vice president of news Madison, we started on election night group in my lounge room and turned out that from all different countries who had, because literally it is an international organisation. So anyway, it was really just about knowing how important that mother to Mother support was for that more gentle style of parenting, not that nursing mothers didn't have gentle mothers in them, but it wasn't a part of their philosophy. Well, and actually, Luke had this, you know, I, I've been around women who were gentle, I read all the Dr. Seuss books, you know, and he's actually now a personal friend, but I hadn't modelled because as a child, I was never modelled to gentle parenting, my mother wielded as I had to really realise my parenting as well, as you know, that she was breastfeeding. But no, once you got to God help you, you know, to be doing that, and being on the outside, because smoking and things like that are very much entrenched in the Australian and New Zealand culture out there. They're very, very entrenched. And I mean, even now, people think that if you don't hit your children, you're probably not disciplining them. So, you know, lots of that, but I just love that gentle, you know, focused on our intuition rather than too much methodology that people have done their throats, you know, there's routines, there's sleeping routines, and it's gotten a lot worse over these years. So like I said, I had kids in two babies in the 80s. And I had my bonus baby, when the two oldest were 16 and 18. I had a baby. Oh, I had to Surrender every time because we get into such a different lifestyle with older children.
Sarah 6:42
How did the older ones cope with the new like, it's such a big gap and the baby coming
Pinky 6:47
It's a great contraception for teenagers. I realised that comedy Miranda was really good because I can have a shower and just hand the baby to somebody else it was, it was really great. I mean, there were lots of things that were a bit hilarious. Like, as he became a toddler, they'd be his mates would come and run around with a water pistol inside the house and then say, what are we going, here's your kid, you know, my little 18 month old would be really hyped up. So. And when I was breastfeeding him, I just say to the other kids, oh, it hasn't finished yet. Because otherwise I wouldn't get a lock in. When we did tell the older two, we were having a baby, they looked at each other and then straight back at us and simultaneously said, you don't still do it. Ah. Well done. It was really more about the mothering support and, you know, having gone through so many different stages and realising that parenting advice kept changing, and yet the mothers need support, regardless of what the hell's going on outside them. So for me, it's, it's, you know, my whole thing is every mother with a baby in her arms and a smile on her face. It's not about yes to breastfeed, you know? Yes, absolutely wonderful. And you know, I was born you, whatever your goals are.
Rachel 8:14
Yeah. So what was the then the journey from being the mum to kind of writing the books and providing that amazing advice to all some mums that are continuing to read your books as we have our babies.
Pinky 8:27
I used to write for the newspapers in Melbourne, when you could write for both like the Herald Sun used to be the Herald in the evening and the sun in the morning. And there was the age and I was writing for those papers. I had done an advertising copywriting course. And then I got my I have an autoimmune disorder that flared up and I couldn't, you know, couldn't barely walk past the letterbox for about six months. So I actually have an article to one of the editors at the newspaper both me recently it was a feminist page. And she just said to me, can you write more for me and then someone else asked me to write for them. So was a really accidental journey. And as I was interviewing experts, because that was just before the internet really came in. And, you know, people in their homes didn't have the internet, the businesses did. People were you know, and I just noticed this change in confidence women instead of getting support from other women, perhaps or talking to their, maybe their moms or using some of their intuition. It just seemed to go out the window. And everybody was looking to the experts, and I'd interview these experts, and they were really talking very academically, you know, and I've actually just imagine I have a mum with a three year old told me what to do. You know, that was and then I ended up speaking to a publisher here in Melbourne, because I was ready for baby magazines as well by then. And direct reciprocal. I've got an idea for a book, and she said, Oh, we don't do parenting books. And so this lady was really lovely. So I chatted to her and said, Can you recommend you know what If I just write a one pager, would you like to have a look at it and tell me where I should send it? I had no idea about literary agents or anything else. And I mean, now I've got an agent just sent it to mozzie, who's absolutely amazing. She had a look at this page and rang me up. You know, within a week, she rang me and said, come to lunch. And she said, we want to do this book. And it was my first parenting by heart, because I had seen that change of women, you know, trusting their intuition and connecting with the babies looking outside themselves. And that confidence went, Yeah. And I think, Yeah, mom can get her confidence up. She might go wrong.
Sarah 10:35
So hard, you know, I read everything. I went to courses, I felt like I needed to do a degree in breastfeeding. And then you've got people, like a friend of mines, husband, you know what, he's a friend of mine as well. So why are you doing all that? It's just natural.
Pinky 10:47
People will say as soon as a breastfed baby starts to grizzle, and you're sure you've got enough milk. And then of course, your confidence is just shattered because you're worried about your starving a baby. And there would be nothing worse as a mother to starve your child. Yes, it's just Chrome. And, you know, just knowing that you can tap those wet nappies, it's pretty simple. You can actually hear that baby's swallow. And you can see as the baby's feeding, you can see their chin go down when they suck your neck. If you suck out of a straw. You'll be sucking at it storing your chin will go down as you as you suck in and affect baby. Yeah, putting the chin down and good long distance, this sucking in milk, they can't put if it's not working. No, if it feels okay to that mammoth, it hurts at all, you know, getting someone else to check it. And there's always people you can get for help. I mean, see lactation consultant, you know, but you don't know that. When you have your first baby very often you don't know. And everybody seems to get skilled up to the birth and go to birthing classes, but they don't think and it doesn't matter. You sound just like with your eyes shut, that baby will come.
Rachel 12:00
Exactly the same. I remember reading so much about the pregnancy and each stage and each week, your baby's the size of an apple or a watermelon or whatever. And then the baby comes and you have no idea how much it's gonna change your life like it is 100% the most life changing things that happens to you. And then all of a sudden, you've got a baby and you're like, what else? Should I be following a routine? Everyone's telling me I've got to follow a routine didn't you know, and you're not I just remember being so stressed for those first few weeks because I was people were talking about routines. And I was like, we've got to do a routine. And then I think I read your book. And I was like, it was like a whole weight had lifted off my shoulders like you can actually listen to the baby's cues, the baby's crying, it needs something, you know, you're actually listening and responding to the baby. And it just makes sense.
Pinky 12:54
Yeah. Like when we're tired, don't wait. And if you can just understand that baby, and baby be a little bit different. But you do know your baby, the best of all, and that's sort of say to people if you're actually in doubt, because, you know, say follow your instincts can be a very wide ranging kind of abstract idea. But you can just say, your advice, you can filter it and say, Is this safe? Is it respectful? And does it feel right for me? And if it doesn't feel right, it's your baby, step back. Doesn't matter who's giving you that advice? It's, you know, you know, your well baby. So if your baby's sick, of course, you'll you'll check what needs to be done.
Sarah 13:33
How did you do you know, with your mum being so old school like that, like, it's so hard to block out the noise isn't it? You know, I remember my mom, you know, helping me out for the first month or so. And, you know, she didn't mean to but she was being really critical. And then she left and I was crying because I was sleep deprived and I'm doing my best and I'm finding my way and what made you want to do it so differently?
Pinky 13:55
Well, she was very, you know, we grew up in a farming community and she was very intuitive around babies but I mean she, she had postnatal psychosis after me, so she weighed apparently I was a child who wouldn't wait. So she ended up putting a binder on that was it you know, at nine months I was so binder piece of cloth that you tie around your boobs, we put the safety pins in. To do that as a nurse in a maternity ward. We used to do that to women who decided not to breastfeed that would and you know, the type brought eight fold in half safety pin tightly around the moon. And it must have been so uncut. Oh my god. It's getting embarrassing when you ask for it for goodness sake. And you've got a generation of women who didn't breastfeed or argue breastfed for a short time, like I said, when I had my first baby here in the 70s. Breastfeeding was very low in Australia. I think nursing mothers must have must have recently started but I didn't know about them. Get the mums at the mums group. Or I had, you know, one was a dentists wife, one was a pediatric nurse because I lived in the city. And they all stopped breastfeeding by three months because you've given your baby a good start, so nobody knew anymore. So routines truly kings popularity had pity. Yeah, he's a New Zealand pediatrician who, you know, for hourly feeding. Bye. Oh, you know, when I left hospital, I was told that by six weeks, I had to give my baby a bottle of water in the middle of the night because then he'd stop waking up for breastfeed. And I thought that was the most stupid thing I'd ever heard. Because we always like to get up at my warm bed. sterilized boil water, and give it to him when I had a boob and have a drink and go straight back to sleep sauce total, total rebel, I've been lazy parenting at its finest.
Unknown Speaker 15:54
For hours without a thing, and I just kind of thought, well, what am I going to do for the next hour or two? If he's hungry, I just feed him and get on with it.
Rachel 16:03
We see obviously in our Facebook group, so many moms struggle with night times and being woken up every hour or two by their baby. What is the best way to deal with that?
Pinky 16:13
She just pushed through it. And now it's going to eventually Yeah, yeah, get some support to you know, have a rest during the day time lying down to feed can be good, depends with you've got other children as well. There's so much pressure on mums. And sometimes, you know, we hear so much about night feeds, that they should be stopped by anything from eight weeks to six months, people are being advised to stop nine feeds and you go home. Actually, if you watch that baby early on and feed that baby as the baby needs to feed. I mean, for the first six weeks, you've got more development going on in your breasts. So if you start a routine really early, by about three months, that baby's going to need either more night feeds or your milk supply is going to go down. Giving bedtime bottles is another thing that impacts the milk supply. No moms can pick that baby up at 10 o'clock and give them a dream breastfeed if they want to. And that's okay, that might coincide this like with the baby's sleep. Also looking at why is my baby waking up at night depending on the age now around four months, babies get really distracted during the day. So they don't feed well. So they get into this reverse cycle of waking all night to feed. Whereas maybe you can feed them a bit more during the day and be aware that they're distracted because you're gonna need a certain amount of milk in 24 hours but those night feeds also appreciating, you know, that are very rich in that breast milk is different to your day breast milk, it's very rich and tryptophan, which is a precursor to serotonin. So it's going to help serotonin receptors in your baby's gut. So night feeds are important for that. Also, your prolactin levels are highest at night, probably, you know, mid morning, three o'clock in the morning or so, round about that time between midnight and three. Your prolactin levels, which is your milk making hormone at highest. And so if you tried out those night feeds really early, you're not going to get the prolactin levels up to a good level around the day. So you're going to impact your milk supply. So I'm not fade or two is really important. And, you know, for your milk supply and for your baby's development, you know, think of it as but if it is really impacting us think about where else you can take shortcuts can you have a nap during the day can if your partner's at work and you're not maybe that when they come home, they can take the baby or they can take the baby early in the morning and you can have a sleep. Maybe they can give the baby a bottle of express breast milk you know, I'm sad that you can go to bed for a couple of hours and then go to bed normally. Try and work it out in your family hate and get that rest and other reasons for waking up. Men. If mums have a small number of storage capacity, the baby may it's not about your supply, but about some women have a job. Some have shot glasses, some have jugs.
Rachel 19:02
I think I think one of my biggest regrets looking back not regrets but I breastfed all my three children to at least sort of 12 months but I guess not. I never introduced I never expressed early on I was never practiced it because I just found it really I found it. And then and then it was almost too late because by the time and I was thinking ER for six months, maybe I'll give them a bottle of express milk. Maybe I should try that. They'd never had a bottle so they weren't actually able to take one so I was just it was just it was fine. But I was never able to introduce a bottle. They basically just went from breast to cup.
Pinky
Basically after expressing for that first one in NICU. I just found it. Just such a pain that I thought looked down and you know, why would I express when I've got milk in it and we're all these other people who are gonna give your baby that bottle of express milk anyway like it's it's triple handling. I mean, if it works in your family for your partner to do that, that's fine. but you can actually skip a feed totally or you will impact on the supply. So better to do that. But another thing that can often cause night waking is babies with food sensitivities. Yeah, and one of the things that can really impact them is chemicals called salicylates. And you know, often when babies start on family foods, or maybe it's going through the breast milk, there can be a very high there chemicals and otherwise utterly healthy foods like berries, grapes, tomatoes, citrus. You know, just an example was a mum with a four week old who was completely unsettled. There's still no evidence, the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne are doing a study now about whether exposure during pregnancy can make these food sensitivities, you know, more likely afterwards. And I said to this mum, anything you craved or binge on during your pregnancy, she said, citrus couldn't get enough of it. And I'm like, Okay, are you eating oranges? Manta Rays, whatever, at the moment? And she said, No. And her husband went to the fridge and pulled out a two liter bottle of orange juice. And so when did we but when did you buy this and she said yesterday, he said I haven't drunk any and it was probably about 50 mils. And she stopped the orange juice and 48 hours later that baby was completely settled and sleeping between
Unknown Speaker 21:31
just knowing you've got to talk to others, and you got to get the x you know, it's there's so many things and or you can have a condo, my sister's had issues with, you know, dairy, like she's had to cut out dairy with breastfeeding. Her middle child, I think it was, you know, it was just kind of a potluck process of elimination that she realized that that was causing the issues, but so hard
Unknown Speaker 21:57
when you're in it, you know, like you're not thinking about what could be the orange juice because you're tired and you're thirsty, you know, the sugar and whatever, then someone else coming in from the outside may be able to observe that and make that like yourself and observation.
Unknown Speaker 22:12
And not you know, my third child was the one that was true, you know, the sense that of one I'd had two Fat Boys and not a problem. I mean,
Unknown Speaker 22:21
you've basically created an empire what I like to abbreviate empire, because you've also added in VB foods as well. How did that come about? From like the conversation, you know, we've had about diet tree and you know, all of those things as well.
Unknown Speaker 22:35
Or Walston mothers, you know, visiting mothers in their home, and it's two o'clock in the afternoon, and I always asked her mother, what have you had to eat today? And you know, a cup of coffee, maybe a piece of toast, haven't had lunch, didn't have a proper breakfast, all that. And a friend of mine said to me, have you heard of what I'm actually tasting coffees, and I said, I've heard of them. And I've handed out recipes for years. But we used to all make them when I was in actually back in New Zealand there was, you know, some crazy foods that we used to eat. One of them was tiger's milk, and it was made with raw eggs and brewers yeast and a shake, that sounds revolt. That in cultures all over the world, women have had various foods that you know, help support a healthy milk supply and help nourish them after birth. Because you know, the baby will be your breast milk will be fine, the baby will be fine. You know your breasts, but it comes from your body stores. So if you're not well nourished yourself, you're the one that's going to go downhill and feel awful. And so this friend said to me, I said something else I say can't even have a shower, they can't put proper food. Why don't you make them and you know, people laugh kind of thing going. Right? And the idea stayed in my head back to Melbourne. And I mentioned it to my designer. And he said my housemate manages a bakery. And a day later or a day early. I've just haven't started with another friend. And we've been to the states together. And she rang me and said, Oh, I've just been out for lunch with this amazing woman who's just sold a coffee company and I think give me a number. And it was Cindy Lou, who made cookies. And I said to her what would I need if I was going to make some cookies and she gave me the name of a food technologist here in Melbourne. And it all just add it Invisi industries looking at packaging telling them you design a box like a milk carton, because you know there's always message me and I'm feeling like she had to take me around the premises to show me how they actually made cartons and wow. So we were the first lactation food but since then we have done research with Victoria University in 2020. We did a big study into You know, left to genic foods, and we have some new foods that are about out too. There'll be on your website, no doubt, we'll be very soon. Yes, we're just waiting so we can get the costumes, right. So when do you think you'll be launching those so much depends on the people who manufacture and put everything together for us. Because we started this process a year ago, we've got the final recipes that were really happy, yes. But now it's eating, you know, the ingredients supply and all of that the proper labeling, you know, because you have to have food standards approved labeling, but two of them. One of them will be foods for special medicine, medicinal purposes, so that we can actually use the herbs that we have researched. So whereas you know, the ingredients tend to work on the prolactin, you've always got to check what might be an underlying cause if you are worried about not supply, and again, how the baby's actually latching and sucking and feeding effectively. When you have yes, those issues too. It's not just about a magic food that's going to
Unknown Speaker 26:04
so what is the first port of call then for a new mum that might be struggling and just doesn't know where to start?
Unknown Speaker 26:09
Yeah, look up the website, I will see a inside look cans, which is lactation consultants of Australia and New Zealand. And on there, there's a link to find a lactation consultant, she can run the Australian breastfeeding Association, first call if she wants, but if she wants someone to come to her home, she'll help her troubleshoot and support her get an ibclc, you know, International Board Certified Lactation Consultant, because that's the gold standard for, you know, being qualified to help with breastfeeding issues.
Unknown Speaker 26:39
Yeah. And I think mums need to know that they can ask for help. They're not expected to know the answers themselves all the time. Like I think that's the hardest thing is something going on. Am I failing? If I'm asking for help? But no, no one expects you to know everything about being a mom and what to do. You know, ask for help if you need it.
Unknown Speaker 26:58
Yeah, I think that's a very big one. Because before you've had a baby, you know, you're this independent woman. And you're you can control your life to some extent. Suddenly, you have a baby. And it's like a freight train coming through your life, isn't it? Yeah. And
Unknown Speaker 27:14
well, it's been absolutely amazing to have Pinkie McKay on. And obviously, so much knowledge and advice already given in this short, you know, 30 minute interview today. But if you want any more of those tips, or you know, to be able to get ahold of her books, or listen to her podcast, which is called tips up, great name, it's Pinky mckay.com is a website where you can go to continue to follow Pinky, please make sure that you reach out if you need help. There's no shame in that at all. Thank you so much for your time, and
Unknown Speaker 27:45
your incredible wisdom and your gentle style of parenting. Thank you to you for having me.
Unknown Speaker 27:55
Pleasure. It's been wonderful to chat and we'd love to get you back at some point again to chat about the other issues beyond the baby years.
Unknown Speaker 28:03
And in any age. It's not a it's not a reflection of you not coping, but I hate that word. Yeah. Great.
Unknown Speaker 28:11
Great advice. Thank you so much. Take care piggy.
Unknown Speaker 28:15
Thank you. Well, that
Unknown Speaker 28:16
was an absolute pleasure to talk to pinkie. She's so refreshing and she just really makes you feel good about being a mum, I think and just, you know, connecting with that inner instinct that you have and doing what feels right and listening to your child. That is it's reassuring, I
Unknown Speaker 28:34
think, yeah, she's very real. And also she went through and it's such a hard time to didn't she you know, back when when you were really having to push your parenting agenda in the more gentle parenting style, because I think it's more accepted now. It would have been hard
Unknown Speaker 28:49
for Absolutely. Yeah. She's, she said babies in the 70s 80s and 90s. I love across the region. And I, mine were all within five years. So I can only speak for that experience from 2009 to 2015.
Unknown Speaker 29:11
Which is also crazy in a different way. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Amazing.
Unknown Speaker 29:18
Well, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of the parenting couch. Don't forget you can follow us on the parenting couch Facebook page, Instagram page, or over on North Shore mom's our website, Facebook Instagram page as well.
Unknown Speaker 29:34
So if you're just joining us, for the first time, we have been going for a little while now and having a lot of fun. There are plenty of other episodes and very valuable insights and wisdom so far. We've had Kaz cook on and Ali Datto. So yeah, please go back. Have a listen to those and thanks again for tuning in and we will catch you in two weeks time again. See
Unknown Speaker 29:55
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