The Offshore Wind Podcast from GWEC
Welcome to the Offshore Wind Podcast, hosted by Stewart Mullin, GWEC's Chief Industry Officer, and Rebecca Williams, GWEC's Deputy CEO.
Offshore wind is one of the world's fastest growing energy sources.
Many nations are embracing offshore wind as a key tool to deliver on net zero and sustainability targets, while building clean industries that drive economic growth.
Turbines are bigger and more powerful than ever, the supply chain is developing in every region and new markets are opening up thanks to action-focused policy developments that build on political ambition.
The rise of floating offshore wind, increasing interest in power-to-x and green hydrogen solutions are creating the basis for offshore wind to propel the global energy transition forwards.
The Offshore Wind Podcast, from the Global Wind Energy Council, looks at the issues facing the offshore wind industry today and tomorrow.
The Offshore Wind Podcast from GWEC
Ocean Winds - Lessons from a leading offshore wind developer
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Ocean Winds' Chief Business Development Office Rafael Munilla joins the pod to talk about what the pioneering company has learnt about offshore wind and how the industry can work together to explore growth opportunities and clear the barriers facing offshore wind energy.
The pod crew also look at the recent Global Offshore Wind Report, which assesses the key topics for the offshore wind industry, as well as the definitive industry data from GWEC's Market Intelligence team. Download your copy here: https://www.gwec.net/reports/globaloffshorewindreport
GWEC's Offshore Wind Podcast is hosted by Stewart Mullin, GWEC's Chief Industry Officer, and Rebecca Williams, GWEC's Deputy CEO, who leads on all GWEC's Offshore Wind work.
The podcast, or 'show' as Stewart still likes to call it, features leading voices from across the sector, whether that is large OEMs, key supply chain manufacturers or political leaders driving policy, to talk about how we can all work together to deliver on offshore wind's enormous potential.
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Follow Rebecca on LinkedIn here and Instagram here
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Hello listeners, Stuart Mullen here, the Chief Industry Officer at the Global Wind Energy Council and welcome to Season 6 and yet another edition of the Offshore Wind Podcast. And I'm here at the desk as always, joined by the Deputy CEO of the Global Wind Energy Council, Rebecca Williams. Rebecca, how are you doing?
Speaker 01Hi Stuart, hi everyone. I'm doing well. It's heating up here though. It's pretty warm at the moment in Europe and it's been a big week of conferences, convenings. So yeah, really excited to be on the podcast today and get into some of that.
Speaker 02Yeah, and today we have the Chief Business Development Officer from Ocean Winds, Raphael Meunier. I'm going to get that wrong. Sorry, Rafael. I've known you for many years and I still can't get your surname right. So please tell the listeners how you should say your surname.
Speaker 00Hi, Stuart. Hi, Rebecca. The correct pronunciation is Munilla.
Speaker 02Munilla. Yeah, okay. Never going to get that right with the Australian accent. I butcher every language, so yeah. Anyway, but it's great to have you here on the podcast and thank you very much for agreeing to give us some insights into the Ocean Winds organisation and particularly how you're seeing the market in this, I guess, really interesting time. I think we're living through an interesting time for the offshore wind sector, so it would be great to sort of unpack that, but be Before we get too much into the content of the show, first of all, can you give the listeners a little bit of background about yourself? How did you get into the offshore wind sector and what did you find interesting about the sector to start with?
Speaker 00First of all, I would like to thank you, Iweka, Stuart, Rebecca, for inviting me to participate in this podcast. I'm super excited to have this conversation with you and, well, a little bit about myself and my relationship with offshore wind. I think the first time I've been exposed to offshore wind was almost 20 years ago when I was working at that time as a consultant for E.ON, creating E.ON Climate and Renewables. And at that moment, E.ON has already some offshore wind assets. So that was my first, let's say, exposure to that. And since then, I would say that almost I developed my career close to wind, at the beginning onshore, but also offshore. And I feel, let's say, super attracted by it. I don't have an engineering background. In fact, I'm a lawyer by training. But I feel always super attracted to onshore wind, to wind and what wind could bring to the energy sector. And I'm also someone that, when decided where to work, I always want to go beyond the actual work itself and whether there's another... let's say, another objective which goes beyond, let's say, the business itself. And I believe that Winmate has a purpose. So that's more or less what's hidden behind. Sorry,
Speaker 02you said you were a lawyer by trade, yeah? Is that right? You studied law?
Speaker 00Yeah, in fact, I studied law, yeah, and I'm a member of the Madrid Bar Association, and I started my career In fact, in a British law firm in Freshfields when I finished my university. But then I realized very shortly that that was not for me.
Speaker 02Yeah, okay. So, yeah. But what was the then pathway? I mean, as a lawyer and you're starting, you can choose any industry. What was it that specifically… uh thought about wind like what did you are you are you one of these people that wants to make a difference to the world or was it just uh you know did you just say this is where the money is to be hit made
Speaker 00no i think it was it was on one hand that i'm interested but also by by confidence in the fact that after after leaving uh the law firm i shift to consulting and at that moment it was 2006 you know the onshore wind especially was was booming and i and we did several projects especially with gamesa at that time with eon with Iberdrola, all linked with wind energy. As you know, in these companies, although they are generalists, you tend to be specialized on something. I did almost 90% of my projects in onshore wind with very little exposure to offshore, but it was 20 years ago. Then after that, as always, you get to feel comfortable with the sector, and I continued developing my career. Then I moved to industry in EDP. when I've been almost 10 years doing onshore wind and offshore wind. I had been exposed to every single offshore wind opportunity or project that we assess as a company. And then after that beautiful journey in EDP, we decided that it might be good to do something specifically on offshore. So after, you know, we have had the CDPJVs with Engie and on an ad hoc basis for projects, no? So after, you know, dating, I would say for years, we decided it might be wise to get married, no? So in 2019, you know, all that conversations on creating something on a specific vehicle, to channel our offshore wind efforts crystallized in OceanWinds. I'm very lucky that I was invited to be part of the original group of people that joined OceanWinds. End of 2019, we were like a group of between 50, 100 people. Now we are more than 600. So I'm really, really proud of what we achieved in the last six years.
Speaker 01Raphael, you mentioned that you had a kind of passion for wind. And I'm not speculating as to your age, but there's all this discussion all the time about how for millennials, for the millennial generation, it's all about that kind of mission driven and feeling of purpose that you get. I mean, where does that come from with wind for you? Do you feel passionate about the agenda? I mean, how does that manifest itself?
Speaker 00Yeah, I think that strictly speaking, I'm from 1981, so I think I could be considered millennial. So yes, I had that passion. I think it's something that I believe that, I mean, I'm a hard worker. I spent a lot of time on what I do. And I believe that that's only sustainable if you are passionate about what you are doing. And there needs to be something more. And that's what I find in working, I would say, not only in wind. I mean, now I'm in wind, but I believe in renewables and the roles that renewables will play. And I think that for me, without that, I would not be where I am now. Because in order to get where we are, I think you need to put a lot of time, you need to make a lot of sacrifices. And that for me, it's only possible if you believe in what is behind, in the mission, as you said, Rebecca.
Speaker 01So you were saying there that you have been in the industry some time now. And I'm really interested, how do you kind of judge this moment? What's your feeling about this moment versus... other moments in the industry that you've had throughout your career? And how are you kind of viewing this with all that knowledge and expertise behind you?
Speaker 00Yeah, I think that we are now in what we may consider like a situation of turbulent waters a bit, no? So it is true that in what concerns offshore wind, let's say the moment of the macro environment is not great. I think that we should not hide it. No, I mean, we are facing challenges in what concerns stretching the supply chain, inflation, bottlenecks also. I mean, I think that one of the things of our sector is that we are very exposed to you know, to political changes. We are in the, you know, we are on top of the political agenda. So that has, for good and for bad, no? And now in some markets, the situation is not great. But nevertheless, I think that one of the things that it's important and that would allow us to, you know, to continue and to keep us an industry is that there's, let's say what, you know, what we are here to provide is something that goes beyond those, let's say the specific situations now, such as, you know, political uncertainties, inflation, etc. And also the objective of what we are there to deliver is stronger than that. And at the end of the day, it's about making the right decisions. It is true that sometimes it's tough because you need to stay calm, not overreact. But that's where we see we are. I mean, the situation, I would say, in some markets is not great. But on the other side, it is true. that we are seeing also other markets that are popping up. We may discuss later, but it is true that some markets are slowing down, but then we are having newcomers that identify that offshore wind could play a key role in their energy mix.
Speaker 02Sorry, Rebecca, maybe you could follow up.
Speaker 01I was just going to say, I mean, we're just about to bring out here at GWEC our global offshore wind report for this year. And I'm really interested in your thoughts on one of the kind of characterizations of this moment that we have within that report, which is that, you know, the industry is still relatively young. We're a young industry versus other energy generation technologies or other industries. And perhaps, you know, this is the process of us growing up a little bit, going from a kind of teenager into an adult and learning some of those lessons. I mean, do you agree with that characterisation? Is that how you see it with the benefit of your past and experience?
Speaker 00I think that's a good statement indeed. No, I think that we are now, I mean, we are now getting, maybe we are reaching the teenage state and due to that, I mean, we need to face challenges that we were not expecting. earlier, no? And as you said before, and as I explained to you, I mean, I've been working mainly in Onshore before, and this is something that Onshore Wind faced in the past, no? And the good thing is that we overcome those challenges, and Onshore Wind is also another alternative, and a good alternative also there, no? So I think it's part of the evolution of the industry, no? It is true that, however, these type of things could be, how do I say, like... let's say, taking, let's say, have bigger impact because our size, I mean, offshore wind is, you know, the size, maybe I'm oversimplifying, but size matters, no? And when these things happen in offshore wind, although the industry is big, but, you know, projects, infrastructure that is attached to it, I mean, let's say it's smaller in terms of size, but offshore wind is a different animal, no? So everything that affects offshore wind has a much bigger impact, no? That's maybe why what is happening in offshore wind now with some kind of, you know, of thermals, et cetera, has like a bigger impact, no? But I agree with your scene, Rebecca.
Speaker 02Yeah, what I was going to follow up on, Rafael, at the start, you kind of mentioned some several challenges that the industry is facing at the moment. You talked about interest rates and the supply chain challenges, et cetera. I accept that the political process A change of, you know, that offshore wind gets politicised and, you know, all of a sudden, you know, a change of government can mean a complete change of direction for the interest and desire to work with or have offshore wind as part of the energy mix. But, I mean, from a developer's perspective, you know, having… interest rates have gone down and it's been quite favourable interest rates. At some point, we always knew that the market would turn, I presume. So there must be something from a developer's perspective where you had to have anticipate the interest rates going back up at some stage. And also for the supply chain challenge is the fact that there hasn't been the investment in the supply chain. Also, where does that From a developer's perspective, if you're seeing that, if you're seeing those supply chain challenges, where does that come? Is that because developers in the past haven't been able to pay the supply chain what it actually costs to build the supply chain out? Why are we in this situation now? It seems like a perfect storm, but what are the factors that have got us there and how can we start to work through those?
Speaker 00I'm going to figure out... It's difficult to find the right answer on that. Obviously, going to the first point, the fact that something like this could happen is not something that came as a surprise for us. We anticipate these things. We have internal tools that would hedge us against these potential challenges in the industry. On that, I would say that maybe linking it to the way that we approach new markets, new projects, we are we are very selective and we really think before making an investment decision or entering into a new geography. So that's something that in a certain way mitigates the impact that these challenges or these things has on ocean winds. So I think that we are in a, I'm not saying that we are completely isolated for this, but I would say that we are in a better position than others in the sense that we are, I would say that, I'm not saying that others are not, but we are, I would say, super diligent when we're making our decisions. And then on the supply chain, I think it's a mixture of everything. I mean, I think that sometimes maybe people underestimate the technological challenges of offshore wind being a different animal than offshore wind. I mean, this is not putting an onshore turbine in the water. It has more than that. also in terms of sizes of the monopile, the infrastructure that is required. That's something that implies time, also implies dealing with different set of stakeholders that maybe are not as familiar to wind as, for instance, the ones in Onshore. In Onshore, I think that the relevant stakeholders, they are familiar with the sector for more than 20, 30 years already, but some of the stakeholders that we have to deal with in Onshore Wind are new. to renewables so that's something that takes time and I think it's kind of in a certain way kind of a perfect storm on that and that's something that I think it's something that would not be there for always but hopefully as Going back to the simile that Rebecca made, I think that as long as the industry is getting mature, these type of things will get better.
Speaker 02Well, I mean, you guys are a pure play offshore wind player. So if there's no offshore wind industry that you guys, I guess there's no ocean winds in that respect. Just on that, I mean, so I would imagine that the markets where, and you mentioned that you've been coming very, very selective about where you engage. So you must be pretty confident that the markets where you're actively engaging now are actually going to live up to this transformational impact that offshore wind has. I mean, it seems like that you guys, if you're investing and you're continuing to drive a market, you must have a lot of confidence in those markets that you're still in.
Speaker 00Yeah, I mean, I think it goes, we need to go maybe a little bit before, I mean, when we We make the selection or the decision to enter into a new geography. It's something that for us, it's a long process. I mean, one of the positive things, well, I'm saying one of the positive because you may infer that there are also negatives, but one of the positive things are being a joint venture. between two big companies such as NG and NEDP is that the scrutiny that we have on our decisions is, I would say it's huge, because we first have to agree and to discuss internally and then also we need also to assess it together with our sponsors. So whenever we make a decision to enter into a new geography, I mean, we do a super, let's say, detailed analysis. And if I had to summarize it in something, when deciding to go to a place or not, what we need to have is that that market has what I call a structural need for, not for renewals only, but for offshore wind. Because if the need is there, you may be facing issues, let's say moments on maybe a potential political change whatsoever. But at the end of the day, if we have identified that there is a structural need for offshore wind, the market is going to be there. I mean, it may happen. The only thing is that, I mean, due to that, potential political changes, you may be facing a problem during four years, but if you are strong enough to survive, and if the need is there, the market will remain. And that's what we try to do whenever we select a market, that we identify that due to fundamentals, due to scarcities of other means, energy independence, et cetera, et cetera, that market needs, maybe not now, but in the midterm offshore wind. And if that is the case, we take the decision to enter. I mean, I'm not saying that we are in all the markets in the world that we have identified as having a structural need for offshore, but I would say that in the ones that we are, we had identified that the structural need. And then you may argue, do you add to that maybe if there are markets that have the infrastructure already, et cetera? In some of them they are, because I mean, there are markets, for instance, that they had a strong oil and gas industry and we could leverage from that. But even in markets that they don't have anything in terms of, let's say, infrastructure that would help us to develop offshore wind, we believe that if the need is there, the infrastructure will be there. So even if it's not there now, so that's more or less the way that we see it. The problem always is that as we are, as I said, on top of political agenda, now more than in the past, we may be exposed to changes, depending on what happens in elections in some countries. But even... Even in markets, even if they change from one party to the other, if we have managed as an industry to explain well the politicians, the need that they have for offshore wind and the benefits that offshore wind could bring, not only to the energy sector, but also to the industrial development of the country, we could manage even to be completely isolated for those moves.
Speaker 01I just wanted to pick up on some of the points that you were making there, Raphael, about the fundamentals, because that's certainly how we here at GWEC on behalf of also the rest of our members kind of see things. In certain markets, there are these fundamentals, and I wondered if you could elaborate on that point a little bit further. But also, you mentioned the wider challenges that the sector is facing. I think in those markets where the fundamentals are there and continue to be there, how do those markets, in your opinion, chart a safe course through this perfect storm, as you were talking about, and how can government and industry work together to achieve that?
Speaker 00Starting with the second one, I think that governments that remain committed offshore wind, to their plans, to their calendars of auctions, to their plans on investing in supply chain, regardless, let's say, the noise that could come from what is happening in other places that remain, let's say, isolated from, let's say, from very high-level discussions on whether this is expensive, this is not expensive. That's something that I think that we appreciate. I mean, markets that... regardless being in a difficult situation, they are still doing things and betting for offshore, no? Even in a context in which there are also other things that are not as good. I mean, UK, we have an example, no? It is true that Not everything is like a fairy tale in the sense that there are challenges in the offshore wind industry in the UK, but regardless, the government is developing things, is working on amending and improving the next allocation rounds. They're working on things. And I think that's something that is something that we appreciate. Also something that is important that would give us comfort is where we have governments that listen. I mean, I think that's something that is key. I mean, we are, you know, for good or for bad, players like us and like others, we are exposed, we have been exposed to offshore wind and to these things, not only in the market, in other markets, no? So I believe that when we have markets or governments that instead of, let's say, taking a decision themselves, overreacting, without listening to the industry, that's something that we dislike, no? What we prefer and what we are always open and suggesting is that we are I'm not speaking about ocean winds, but that's the offshore wind industry. I mean, I think that we are an industry that we've been always very collaborative with governments, and we are always much more than open to try to find, let's say, a solution that works for both. So I think that's something that is key, that when a market or when a government is facing an issue, I think it's good if they listen to us. Because I think that maybe we don't have the magic recipe, but... Unfortunately, we have faced these type of situations before in other places. So I think that it's key if they listen to us. And also, collaborating a bit more, I think it's good that, linked with my point, that they don't overreact. I think that a positive signal for us as developers, but also more important for the supply chain, is that they keep that plan or that long-term plan that they have. I think that not doing... I think that is key for the development on offshore, have a long-term plan with visibility of auctions, with targets, et cetera, because without that, the supply chain is not going to come. So I think that markets that remain attached to that, regardless of a specific situation that is happening in a specific moment, I think that's something that is important.
Speaker 02Just on that, so regular listeners to the Offshore Wind podcast would know that any opportunity that I get to talk about the Australian market and the Australian offshore
Speaker 01wind
Speaker 02market. Here it comes. Here it comes, listeners. Anyone that knows me knows that I'll talk about the Australian offshore wind market forever and a day. I thought that maybe we could actually, you know, you mentioned a whole lot of different principles, et cetera, that you guys look at. Maybe we could specifically look at how the Australian market, as a sort of like next gen market, something that's going to be installed in the early 2030s, we're still a fair way off installation. So how do, what sort of signals specifically are you seeing in Australia that give you the confidence that the market will develop and you mentioned about you know like whether you're bringing the supply chain on for the getting the supply chain interested you know how important is it then to have like a regional supply chain and an active region that you can be a part of rather than looking at individual markets yeah
Speaker 00I'm not Australian as a steward, but I have to say that Australia is one of my favourite markets.
Speaker 02You always say
Speaker 01that to all the markets.
Speaker 02You always
Speaker 00work on the podcast. I have to say that Australia, and in particular the Victorian government, has done and is still doing a perfect job in, precisely what I said, not listening. I think that from the very beginning they acknowledged that they arrived late to the offshore wind industry. or to offer wind, but they took it as a, okay, that's a positive because I could learn from what has happened elsewhere. And they were very open and they were always listening. And I think that's something, and they accommodate what they had in mind to what us industry were sharing with them. I mean, us industry being developers with the help of GWEC, with the help of the Clean Energy Council. So I think it's something that we have managed to create a framework together with the government the Victorian government, in this case, playing a key role, but let's say not being, you know, giving the back to the sector, but completely the opposite. Then on your point, Stuart, on fundamentals and supply chain, I think it's something that is crucial, that the supply chain need to be developed in Australia. It's one of the benefits that we are always claiming that offshore wind has, so it would be stupid if I don't acknowledge it. So I think that one of our positives is not only what we could add let's say, to the electricity mix, but also what offshore wind could deliver in terms of supply chain, jobs, development of industry, reshaping of industrial areas that were under a bad situation, reshaping and shifting them towards working on offshore wind. I think that's something that would happen in Australia, in the region of Gippsland in particular also. The thing is that one of the points that I... that I made also clear to them when I speak with Howard, for instance, is that it would be naive if they believe that they are going to have 100% of the supply chain in Australia. I think it's something that we need to be clear and transparent with all the markets that not every single market in APAC or not every single market is going to have a wind turbine manufacturing facility, towers built there. also, you know, I don't know, OSPs, et cetera. This is something that is not going to happen. So I think that they need to acknowledge that there's going to be part of the supply chain there in Australia. And I think that there's going to be part of it. But I think that we need to look at supply chain in what concerns Australia in a regional basis in a certain way. So it might be that we have something in Australia, we have something in other places. But definitely, I mean, there's going to be industry in Australia and in particular, something that maybe is not as It's not as sexy as having a wind turbine manufacturing from Siemens, but there's also a lot of second, third, fourth tier works and activities that are related with offshore wind that will bring value to the region. Not only, let's say, what appears in the big headlines, that companies building a factory, et cetera, but also there are other things that are important for the communities that comes together with offshore wind.
Speaker 02And I think that's a really great point. But I would also say from the Australian market, and this is something that I guess having been in Australia just recently and spoken to particularly the turbine manufacturers, the onshore market in Australia is exceptionally buoyant. I think it's going to be four gigawatts year on year of installed capacity between now and 2032. That's a lot of onshore wind turbines. And those manufacturers of onshore wind turbines, several of them make offshore wind turbines so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to I imagine I know that it's you know like they're different size and the scale of turbines is different etc and that it's not a one-to-one supply chain but if you've got a lot of activity in a market then it does actually make a good strong business sense to to see at least what other activities it might not be a full-on manufacturing plant but I think that there's actually a pretty strong wind supply chain in Australia already that we just need to work out how we can adapt that and where those synergies are to how do we tack on the offshore wind start because one of the good parts about the supply chain that I've seen working with the turbine manufacturers is that in general turbine manufacturers can mobilize quite quickly where needed to I mean we saw that in Taiwan we've seen that in other markets around the world as well where the manufacturers can actually I guess get their act together and really create the necessary economic value that it's needed. I mean, you're quite right. We shouldn't expect everything there, but I think that there'll be more synergies that perhaps people are actually thinking about at this stage as the two supply chains, particularly as the onshore wind turbines get bigger and bigger, there'll be some synergies there, which I think we can tap into as an industry, or at least I hope to be able to tap into as an industry. Rebecca.
Speaker 01Yeah, I was actually going to just maybe revisit one of the things that we were talking about before, which was we were talking about what government can do and how industry can work with government. But I think at GWAC, we're also always asking the question, well, what can industry do? What does industry need to do itself at these moments? And you mentioned good collaboration, Raphael, and I'm wondering, do you have opinions on how industry at this moment can make sure that it's meeting this challenge, whether that's in the emerging markets or indeed in some of the more mature markets that we have.
Speaker 00I mean, I think that, as you said, as GWIC, I mean, I think that industry bodies such as GWIC, the national associations, are being a key part in making this happen. And that's something that is not only in emerging markets, but also in more established markets, such as the UK. And I think that the UK is a very, it's a super good example on that. And I think that developers, I mean, through directly and through those associations, I think that we are doing our homework. It is true that sometimes, We may need to be more open and understand that this is a long-term play. We may have to concede certain things for a bigger goal. But I think that, especially not the emerging markets, but more consolidated markets, I think that it's something that has been done has been done very good by the industry, like being always, let's say, open and doing a lot of effort in engaging not only with the central government, but with the regions, with the key stakeholders, with communities. I think it's something that we've been doing. And I think that we are continuing doing so. I'm using UK as an example because, as you know, we have a white presence in Scotland. And I think that that's something that... that we did that when we were assessing getting the round two leases in 2009, and we are continuing doing so now in 2025. And in emerging markets, I think it's even key because in some of them, It is true that governments, they may read something, what is going on offshore, but I think that the work of us, developers and associations such as GWEC, especially in what concerns emerging markets, is critical. I think that without that support in some markets, I would have my doubts on whether offshore wind would have been developed as it is now.
Speaker 02In terms of, you mentioned a little bit about stakeholder engagement and stakeholder engagement is critical in the offshore wind space like it is in onshore wind as well. In terms of community engagement, has there been anything that's from your long experience in the wind industry that's kind of surprised you or has there been any, can you see where early stakeholder engagement and bringing communities into your ecosystem where that's really made a difference to the outcome of the projects?
Speaker 00I think that community engagement and early community engagement is key because I think that we should not deny that what we do have an impact. Someone may argue whether that impact is super positive, less positive, but we cannot deny that has an impact. It has an impact to to people that were already there, to activities that were already there. So I think it's key that the sooner the better, we developers explain what we are going to do, explain what's the rationale behind what we are doing, explain the benefits that what we are doing will bring to them. So I think that engaging, explaining, and doing, let's say, pedagogy on that, I think it's something that is key. Especially doing, as I said, early learning, because also that engagement would allow us also to accommodate to their needs, because especially in places that are new, I mean, you may have a view because you have been dealing with the communities or with key stakeholders in France, in the north of France, but you may believe that dealing with these type of profiles is the same in Gifland or is the same in Ulsan in Korea, or it's the same in Boston, but it's not the case sometimes. that you could leverage on learnings from other places. I would say that's a key competitive edge that we have as a global player. But regardless, you need to understand, let's say every community is different. So I think it's good also to understand very early what are their needs, their concerns, so we could in a certain way adapt to that. Unfortunately, it's not always possible to adapt 100%. But if we do that early community engagement, we could find a balance between what is required for the development of OptionWin and what are the requirements of the communities. And especially that is super key in markets such as such as Australia with the First Nations, that we need also, it's something that it's new for foreign developers, that we need to understand well and to be respectful. In a certain way, we have that in the US also. So these type of things, you could only do it well if you plan well and you do things early. Yeah,
Speaker 02it's really sage advice, I think, to make sure that we treat all those communities as well. unique and respect their individual interests. And I think you're right, we do have a kind of a broad understanding of most of the typical areas that communities are interested in, but it's really good advice, I think, to make sure that we tackle that on a individual basis. We are getting towards the end of the podcast and we still haven't touched on the floating offshore wind sector. I'd really like to hear how offshore winds views the floating offshore wind. I mean, it's always been sort of thought about as sort of like the game changing technology that's coming behind fixed bottom that's going to open up and make every bit of water in the world accessible to potentially offshore wind development. You know, 10 years on, 15 years on, after sort of like wind floated landing and some of the early demos, we haven't perhaps seen that hockey stick uptake as it is yet. How would you guys see Ocean Winds? Rebecca, you wanted to add something there too?
Speaker 01Just to say, I mean, we should at this point also say a big happy birthday to Windfloat Atlantic. I don't think we've said that yet on the podcast. Oh, that's
Speaker 02right.
Speaker 01Yeah, yeah. So let's maybe face this discussion by also wishing Ocean Winds and Windfloat Atlantic a big happy birthday.
Speaker 02We did actually mention Windfight Atlantic, I think, as our news of the day at the World Bank podcast back in the day. So, yeah, that was back in, I think it was the end of April, was that right, for Windfight Atlantic?
Speaker 00Yeah, first, thanks, thanks all for the compliments. No, indeed, I mean, we are very proud as a company of, you know, of the fifth anniversary since the operation of Windflood Atlantic. We had, in fact, a good celebration. We have colleagues from GWEC also joining. I think it's a landmark project for the industry. As a company, as OceanWinds, and as one of our sponsors before, we believe and we identified that floating technology will play a key role in offshore wind in the future because there are markets... that due to the continental self, I mean, bottom fix has a very limited potential, so markets such as the Iberian Peninsula, which is closer to us, but I mean, other places such as Korea, Japan, I mean, that offshore wind could only happen floating, and that's something that the company identified already, say, more than 25 years ago. And we started in 2011 with Windflood One, which was a very small prototype with a two megawatt VAT Vestas turbine. It was in the sea for five years. And after that, we started developing Windflood Atlantic. It's funny because then you realize that you are getting older, because I remember being myself, I think it was in 2014, in a visit with a delegation from the European Commission, watching Green Float 1. And now it's been a long time since that. But I think that one of the things of floating, a point that, if I may, I could make, is that I think that for the development of the industry, I mean, I think that we should follow something similar to what we were doing, like doing it step by step. Let's say not doing a super big job, because we as a company, I mean, we identified the floating potential. So we started with something small in 2011, a two megawatt prototype. Then the next, let's say, step was Windfloat Atlantic, which is 25 megawatts, three turbines with an evolution of the floater. After that, we tried to tweak a little bit that, and we are now, as we are speaking, we are building EFGL, which is kind of the sister project of Windfloat Atlantic in the coast of France. And after that, you may argue, what's after? We have seen a lot of projects being awarded in, for instance, in a Scottwin, that they are super, let's say, gigabyte-scale projects for floating. And I think that what we were missing and what we need to do in order for the industry to be successful is not jump from the 25, 50 megawatt, I mean, we could call them pilots, although they are not pilots. Some of them are commercial projects. I think that the jump from 50 megawatt to 1.5 gigas, it's something that I don't see feasible. I think that what we need to do as an industry is identify projects that are a little bit smaller in scale and to do progressively that jump. Because we were saying that offshore wind in general has challenges, and floating has also other challenges. So I think that we need to do it very wisely and step by step. So I think that it's realistic to believe that we will jump from the 50 megabit project to the gigabit scale project without anything in between.
Speaker 01I mean, at the time of recording, news hot off the press this morning from the UK Celtic Sea leasing round. So listeners, by the time this comes out, will probably have heard all about this news. But there's been two 1.5 gigawatt floating wind projects just awarded in the Celtic Sea, one Equinor and one JV between EDF and ESB. You mentioned there some of the emerging markets, also, Raphael, that were floating. is basically going to be the trajectory of offshore wind in those countries due to their seabed conditions. And I'm just wondering how you see this kind of global dynamic playing out with floating wind and what role you think your most recent projects can kind of play in that wider learning experience. You mentioned they're going step by step, bit by bit, and also quite a few emerging markets where I know that you've also been working on this. So could you tell us a little bit more about how you're seeing that perspective in the next steps in the development of floating wind?
Speaker 00On the global perspective, a market that we believe is going to play a key role in making that, you know, in closing that gap between the, you know, the small projects and the large one is South Korea. I mean, I think that we believe that South Korea, I mean, maybe, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I believe it's going to be the first market in which we're going to see like large industrialization of offshore wind with building projects in the range of 300s, 500s, a little bit more, but breaching the gap between the gigawatt scale projects and the small ones. And I think that's something, I mean, in the global perspective, I mean, we've been there in the market for a while already, and it's a market that we believe could be a game changer in the industry. South Korea. I mean, there are also other things in other markets in Europe, as you mentioned, on Celtic Sea, which I couldn't read. I just read the headline in the press. I didn't get into the details. Obviously, floating will happen also in some places in Europe. Also, I mean, I'm speaking now from Spain. Now, in Spain, I think that in some places will play a role. But I think that the nature of Korea would allow us to develop. And I think that it could be developed a little bit further than in Europe, let's say that mid-scale floating project. And then also that you are closer to that market, Rebecca, and I have to thank you because I think that you play a key role in what is happening in Japan in what concerns floating. I think that although it's taking much more than what we wanted, I think that floating win in Japan would be also another key market.
Speaker 01Yeah, and maybe just to pay tribute, I know that you've got a fantastic team who've been working across different areas in the APAC region on these very topics. I think when it comes to Japan, definitely I see that there's a lot of work being done behind the scenes, including developers, but also some of those big trading houses, insurers, to really look at how risk filters through in the floating wind system. So I think different countries within that region will play different roles. I agree with you that at the moment, South Korea stands with a lot of those fundamentals when it comes to supply chain in place and really looking forward to hearing how the new government in South Korea will take forward some of these issues. So far, looking pretty positive on the basis of statements that we've seen from the new government. But yeah, looking forward to that follow-up as well.
Speaker 02So that actually brings us nicely to the end of today's recording and I think that it would be great Raphael if you are up for it if we could get you back on the show at some stage to talk in a little bit more depth around the floating offshore wind how we see the development of floating offshore wind in the market it's fair to say that GWIC we have had an offshore wind working group or we have an offshore wind working group for some time and we've had a sub-component of that offshore wind working group has looked at the floating offshore wind market as well and I think that There seems to be more and more interest from industry to really examine and put some effort in and put some thought capital into this idea of unlocking some of the challenges around floating offshore wind and making sure that we actually have an industry that is scalable and perhaps we can learn some of the lessons from that. the fixed bottom world where we can learn to industrialize and move quicker through that industrialized process. So maybe we don't have to repeat all of the lessons from the fixed bottom, but maybe we can, you know, take some of those lessons with us and kind of advance these things. So we're very keen to get you on board again. If you're up for joining us again, we'd love to have you on the show. As we always round out the show, we ask our guests, what has caught your eye over the last, you know, couple of weeks. Anything news in the ocean winds world or from you personally that you find interesting that you want to share with the listeners?
Speaker 00Something that is kind of taking my attention maybe in the last weeks and I would say months is that especially in the last years we were more focused on development and bringing projects to the pipeline. But one thing that we should not forget is that when we are getting new projects, there's also a natural evolution that we'd end up building actually and operating the assets on. And what is kind of something that is taking a lot of our attention now and the attention of my colleagues in our management team is that now as we are speaking, we are building several projects. And that's something that is kind of in a certain way new to me because, I mean, we have not been exposed to a lot of, you know, projects in, you know, in construction and in operation, no? And the fact that we were, you know, at the moment that we're speaking of building three projects in France, finishing also another project in the UK, no? And doing, you know, being, let's say, have first-hand experience on the challenges of actually, you know, building these things, it's something that... It's not, let's say, something just of the last two weeks, but even in the last months that we are facing this. And I think it's a very, how do I say, rewarding. It is so that this challenge is not easy, because when you are actually building things, you face a lot of challenges, things that are not evolving as good as what you were planning. So having to deal with that, although it's something that is not under my direct responsibility, but I'm attached to that as part of the management team of the company. It's something that is... This is striking me a lot during the last weeks, like facing actually building these things. I'm more a development guy, so for me, I want to ask, you should not forget that they need to be built. And when you're actually building them, it's very rewarding.
Speaker 02Yeah, great stuff. And Rebecca, what about yourself?
Speaker 01I have got so much news, Stuart. So many things have not just... caught my eye but have been you know very central to my experience recently so maybe just to rattle through a few things last week I think it was last week we saw the announcement for the Philippines government of the of their first ever offshore wind auction 3.3 gigawatts really exciting first large global south country to be pushing forward offshore wind in in this way and So that's a really exciting development. Before that we had, I mentioned before the South Korean elections, which are big news, pretty supportive government it seems so far when it comes to renewables and looking forward to hearing more from that. Japan passed an EEZ bill. They passed their bill, which kind of fires are starting on a regulatory framework for floating wind. And I'm probably forgetting some other things. I'm just fresh back from the Renewable UK Global Offshore Wind Conference, which was a really great conference. I think the mood at the conference was pragmatic. You know, there are challenges, but actually optimistic. So strong notes of optimism and a feeling of to come back to the points you were making, Raphael, things getting delivered, you know, steel in the water. And really that's what it's all about.
Speaker 02Yeah. And I think also we need to... tell our listeners that GWIC has a new chairman. We have Jonathan Cole who finished his term and tenure at Corio and also his term as GWIC chair. He has been replaced by Michael Hannibal from CIP slash Steesdale and so we're very much looking forward to having Michael Hannibal as the new chair of GWIC and I know just from his sort of introductory speech to the board that there's going to be amongst other things a real emphasis on making sure that we get the conditions right for the offshore wind and particularly around the perhaps leaning back in and being a bit stronger around the floating offshore wind and what needs to happen there to make that viable. That is all we have time for, for this program. Raphael, thanks a million for your time and being part of the, and for the Ocean Winds team for allowing you to be part of the program. I should also tell our listeners that, again, just to hark back to the Australian stuff, Raphael's going to be one of the speakers at the, I think it's you, Raphael, isn't it? One of the Ocean Winds speakers at the APAC Summit in Australia. In September?
Speaker 00Yeah, in Melbourne. I will be there.
Speaker 02That's right. Yeah, I think you're doing a plenary session, high-level session around the offshore wind and particularly stuff around Gippsland. So we're very much looking forward to having you there as part of that program. And listeners, please make sure you get along and hear Raphael at that program. Thanks very much for joining us. Listeners, if you do like what you've heard this episode, please remember to rate and review the show and also click that little subscribe button. It does help us with the algorithms. The Australian Offshore Wind Podcast, I almost called it. That's a Freudian slip. The Offshore Wind Podcast, we've actually up to about 175,000 downloads. So thanks for the loyal listener base. It means a lot to all of us. And thanks, Rebecca. Thanks, Raphael, for being part of this episode. See you next time.
Speaker 00Thanks, Stuart. Thanks, Rebecca. It's a pleasure.
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