167 | Be Still and Know (Part One) with Jackie Carson

I'm pleased today to introduce you to my new friend, Jackie Carson, who I met when she attended one of our While We're Waiting Weekends recently.  In the first half of this two-part episode, Jackie shares the story of her smart and funny son Jonathan, who went to Heaven just before Christmas in 2022.  Jonathan was introduced to marijuana at the age of 12, and it was a gateway drug for him, leading to years of alcohol and drug abuse, jail time, and declining health.  After an 18-month stint in prison, he checked himself into a faith-based rehab, and God used that to turn things around and bring Jonathan to Himself. Ultimately, the Lord took him home, and that’s when Jackie’s journey as a bereaved mom began.  Lean in and listen to hear an amazing story of both redemption and loss.

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Transcript

Episode #167 - Be Still and Know (Part One) with Jackie Carson

00:00:00 - Jill Sullivan
Hi, Jackie. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

00:00:03 - Jackie Carson
Thank you for having me.

00:00:05 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, when I met you at the retreat just about a month ago now, I guess I just thought, oh, I would love to have Jackie be a guest on the podcast, and you were so gracious to agree to join me. So thank you for that.

00:00:18 - Jackie Carson
Thank you for inviting me.

00:00:20 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah. I want to give you the opportunity to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself. Tell us where you're from and what life is like for you there.

00:00:28 - Jackie Carson
I'm from Salisaw, Oklahoma. I'm married. We've been married for about eight years. We both have children. I have five, he has three. So between the two of us, we have a kajillion grandchildren. He is a paramedic and a sheriff's deputy. I work for the local hospital. I'm the assistant to the director of nursing. I've been there for about five years now. I spend all of my free time with my grandchildren and my children and being outside, and we live out in the country. And so that's what our time consists of, is just being out in nature, and we like to go on drives and I love to take pictures. That's what I do with my time. And then my newest thing is to just try to help others through things that are going through similar things that I'm going through through a Facebook page I have and then just trying to be a good steward of my time where I don't think I was before. And that's what I'm trying to do now, is be a good steward of my time.

00:01:43 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, I love that. What is the name of your Facebook group? I'm a part of it, but I can't recall it to the top of my head right now.

00:01:50 - Jackie Carson
Be Still And Know

00:01:50 - Jill Sullivan

I should have been able to remember that! I'm going to put a link to that in our show notes, if you'd like that, and that way people can check it out. It's a private group, right? They would have to request to join.

00:02:02 - Jackie Carson
No, it's an open group.

00:02:04 - Jill Sullivan
Okay, good. All right, so I will put that in the show notes so people can be a part of your group if they'd like to be. But we're here today to talk about your son Jonathan. Take a few minutes and tell us about him. Help us get to know Jonathan.

00:02:21 - Jackie Carson
Jonathan was my oldest son. He was born in 1990. I was a young mama. I was 18 when I had him. He was the kind of kid from the very beginning, that was just full of life. He was a trickster. He loved to play games on his brother and sisters. He loved to be outside and play, and he was always laughing and just a joy. As a child, he would just do silly things, and he had a laugh that just  … when you heard him laugh, your heart just jumped because it was just the sweetest, high pitched laugh for a little boy that you could ever hear. You would think he was a girl, but he was just a wonderful, smart, funny, intelligent child. He just really was a great kid. He loved his siblings. He loved being the oldest brother and taking care of his little sisters and his brother. He was 15 months older than his brother so him and his brother were almost like twins and they always fought all the time. But he just loved being the oldest. So he was a good kid. He was just really smart and got good grades and I never really had much trouble out of him as a young person.

00:03:38 - Jill Sullivan
Sounds like a great fun kid.

00:03:40 - Jackie Carson
He was. He really was. Probably about the middle of his teenage years is when things started getting bad as teenagers tend to have more freedom outside of the house. Even though we were really busy with church and everything like that, he still found the time to make the wrong kind of friendships and then even some family connections that were not the best. And that's how he got introduced to drugs at an early age, probably twelve or 13. And a lot of people say, well, it was just pot or marijuana and it's not that big of a thing. But to me that was his gateway. That was what started the ball rolling down that path of distraction for him. So that's what happened. Whenever he was like twelve or 13, a family member introduced him to it and just went from there.

00:04:48 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:04:49 - Jackie Carson
So he finished high school, he was smart, was going to go to college and become a physical therapist and everything like that. And then he met and made other choices and in between all of that he was starting to do really bad things at home. And I decided when he was about 16 to let him go live with his grandpa out in the country. It was my father in law at the time and I thought, well, I'm going to put him out where he's not living in the big city. Because at the time we were in Dallas and I thought it might help to be out in the middle of nowhere. You can't get into trouble if you're out in the middle of nowhere. Well, right. Little did I know, small towns, they have nothing better to do. Teenagers have nothing better to do than to be bad.

00:05:41 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, that's true.

00:05:43 - Jackie Carson
And he excelled at it. I mean, he graduated in the top 10% of his class but still he already was in that lifestyle. As soon as he graduated high school, it seems like the going to jail and the getting in trouble and doing those bad things just started really being more and more a problem. And it got to where his grandpa didn't even want him living with him anymore and so he would live with friends, or he would live with other drug users. And it was heartbreaking because as a parent, you're just like, Where did that come from? It just came in from nowhere and stole him away from us. And I was so devastated all the time. I just prayed all the time, Lord, take it from him. Take that taste out of his mouth, take that urge away from him. Introduce him to somebody that's going to lead him back to you. And then he got with a girl, and they got married, and they had a couple of kids. I guess he was about 20 or 21. And then they had a very tumultuous relationship because she was a drug user as well, and so her parents would take the kids from her. And so there was lots of going to jail happening at that time and lots of DHS involvement with their children. And I just had to just step back and think, I can't intervene in that, because I just couldn't put myself into that. I prayed all the time for my grandchildren and for my son and for his wife, but it was just to that point where I had to protect the children that I was raising. And so for a while, I would limit my contact with them, and because I didn't want him to bring that into the house. I had other children I was raising, and I didn't want it to poison them.

00:08:02 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, sure.

00:08:03 - Jackie Carson
And that's hard. It's hard as a mom to be a tough love kind of person and say no. And then whenever I guess he was about 21, he got sick the first time. He had what's called varices in his esophagus, and it was because his liver was not functioning properly. And so they told him he went and they had to give him blood products and everything, and they told him, they were like, you're going to have to quit the drugs, you're going to have to quit the alcohol, and you're going to have to clean yourself up or your liver is going to fail you and you are going to die. And so he did okay for a month or two. And then my grandmother passed away, and then six weeks later, my mother passed away.

00:08:59 - Jill Sullivan
Wow.

00:08:59 - Jackie Carson
And he just kind of was there, but not there. He seemed like he was doing better. And then I get a phone call in the middle of the night from a girlfriend because he'd split up with his wife, telling me that he was in surgery. And they needed me to give permission to do whatever it took to take care of him. And I gave them permission, but he had ruptured, and all of his he was just bleeding out because his liver had just quit working, and it just backed up, and it was horrible. And he was in ICU for ten days, and he was on the ventilator, and they told me he would never be the same again because he had had a stroke and he was 22 years old.

00:09:42 - Jill Sullivan
Wow.

00:09:43 - Jackie Carson
And I was just at that time, I was like I prayed and I asked the Lord, I said, Lord, if he has no quality of life, he was never mine. He was always yours. And I said, Lord, if this is your will, take him home. But he didn't; he healed him. He got him all better. He woke up and he went home to live with his girlfriend again. And I was like, okay, maybe this will scare him straight. And he seemed to do good, and he seemed to be back at working and taking care of his kids and just doing what he was supposed to be doing. But whenever your children get silent and they don't communicate with you in your heart of hearts, you know they're doing things that they shouldn't be doing. And that's what happened. And so on, again and off again, I would hear from him, and then I would get phone calls from jail. Mom, can you put money on my books? And my other children were always really mad because I would. But I always told him, I said, I love you just as much as I love him, and I would do the same for you if you were in that position, I would do that for you. And I always just prayed. I always prayed that the Lord would intervene and set him back straight. And this went on for years, but then about two and a half years ago and this is after he even went to prison for like 18 months, about two and a half years ago, he calls me and he says, mom, I'm not going to be able to talk to you for about three months. And I was like, oh, no, he's going back to jail. He said, I know what you're thinking, and I'm not going back to jail. He said, I am putting myself in rehab. And my heart just kind of stopped there for a minute. He said, It's a faith based rehab in a little town outside of Longview. And he said, and they do not allow us to talk to anybody. We're sequestered there. And he said, and when I have graduated from the first part of the program, I'll call you. And I was like, okay. And I got off the phone with him after I told him how much I loved him and I prayed about it. I was like, Lord, please let this be the time. Let this be silence for three months. And of course, I'm in Oklahoma by that time, and he's down there in Longview, Texas, and I just prayed about it, prayed about it, and I had my church group pray about it, and my prayer group pray about it, and we just always prayed about it. And then one day I get this phone call, and he was like, Mom, I want to send you a video. And I was like, okay. And he sends me this video, and it's him in church. In church!

00:12:48 - Jill Sullivan
Wow.

00:12:48 - Jackie Carson
And he is praising the Lord. And he said, mom, I know the Lord now. He said, I never had a relationship with God. He said, but I have one now. He said, I never knew love. I never knew what it was to submit myself to the Lord. And he said, and now I do. He said, And I am so sorry for everything I have ever put you through. And I just cried. I knew the Lord was there, and he was in him. And my son was finally healed. And I was just like, Praise the Lord.

00:13:33 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:13:34 - Jackie Carson
And for several months, he would call me every time he was in church. And he wanted me to see the singing, because I always loved to sing in church. And he would send me the videos, and he would live stream it for me. And then he carried his cross Easter of that year down the highway. And for him, that was a big thing. And for me, it was a huge thing, because my son had put down drugs and alcohol and all of those other things, and he picked up his cross, and I was so thankful that the Lord had finally taken the taste from his mouth and set him on fire. Then about July of that year, which was just last year, July, he got sick. He was having some issues, and they put him in the hospital, and it was basically his body had so much damage from all of the drug use and everything like that. His liver was failing, and there were some other issues. He had a hole in his heart, and he had diabetes and all of these different issues because of long term drug use. And so he was in the hospital for probably a week. I went and stayed with him for about three or four days. He got out. He went back to the hospital because he got COVID. He stayed in ICU for about three or four days. And every time I would go and I would stay with him, and he would be like, mom, it's okay. I'm not afraid. If the Lord chooses not to heal me here, he'll heal me in heaven. And I would get kind of aggravated at him almost, because I was like, I don't want to hear that. I don't want to hear that. You're going to be fine. You are going to be fine. And he was like, But, Mom, I'm not scared. He said, don't be scared for me. And I would just be like, Just hush that. But then he would tell me, he was like, let's start the day, mom, in Proverbs. Let's just randomly choose a scripture in Proverbs and start the day in Proverbs. And he did. And we would read it together, and it would just be this healing for the Spirit. And I was so amazed at how the Lord, even though he was sick, even though there were these huge obstacles, he wasn't afraid of any of it. And he just like, well, I'll just do the best I can kind of attitude. When he would get out, he would have his oxygen tank and he would go to church. He went to Vacation Bible School, and he taught the little guys in Vacation Bible School, my son, and he'd send me these pictures of him at Vacation Bible School with his oxygen tank, with the kid on his shoulders, and I was just like, if only I could be on fire like that. I mean, I was in awe of his willingness to give up everything else and just serve the Lord. And he even told me, he said, Mom, I don't even want to have a relationship with a woman. I just want to have a relationship with Jesus. And I was just amazed at that.

00:17:27 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, just what a transformation.

00:17:31 - Jackie Carson
Huge.

00:17:32 - Jill Sullivan
I mean, that's incredible.

00:17:34 - Jackie Carson
And whenever he had finished his time at the rehab, he decided to stay on as a non-paid person to help others. He said, mom, because I know what it's like to be a drug addict. I know how to talk to them. I know how to tell them the right things. He said, Only I know that experience. He said, So what better use could I be for the Lord than to help others that are in that journey that I'm taking right now? And you couldn't argue because he had known it all of his life, that's all he had done is drugs and alcohol. And he knew exactly how to talk to those guys. And they were there because of different reasons, whether it was court ordered or whatever. And he knew how to talk to them, and he knew how to love them the way Jesus would love them, not look at their past mistakes or anything. He just loved them. I was really proud of Him for that.

00:18:39 - Jill Sullivan
Yes. Well, it sounds like he gave you many, many reasons to be proud.

00:18:44 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:18:46 - Jill Sullivan
That's amazing. His change was so real. People could see that he was different. I know you talked about him coming home, I think it was for Christmas or something like that. And his siblings could see it well.

00:18:58 - Jackie Carson
And see, they wouldn't talk to him. They thought, oh, he's going to go back into doing drugs because he's done it so many times before. And so they wouldn't really talk to him. And in October, we had a baby shower there in Texas for my oldest daughter, and he came, and that's the first time all five of my children had been together. And they were all just like, oh, my gosh, mom, he's not on drugs. And I'm like, I told you. I told you. And it was the most beautiful experience because they got to have their brother back like he was before he was on drugs. And it was just beautiful. It was just amazing. And my other son smoked cigarettes and he offered him cigarettes and he's like, I don't want to defile myself that way. I know my mouth was on the ground because I was like, oh my gosh, did he just say that? And I think it embarrassed my other son a little bit, but he was like, I respect you now. And so he smoked someplace else. And I was just like, wow. So we were able to see him. Then he came up to Oklahoma and we had some birthday parties in November. My twins are born in November and I have a grandchild that's born in November. So we had birthday parties and so he was there for that. And then he came and he spent some time with us at Thanksgiving, but at Thanksgiving he didn't look so good. And when he was sitting on the couch and he said, well, I'll be back at Christmas time, I had a feeling in my heart, and I can't even explain it, that that was the last time that he was going to be together with us. It was almost like the Lord was telling me, it's about time he comes home to me now, but you don't want to think that way. So I just kind of pushed it to the back of my mind. I thought, oh, you're being overdramatic or whatever. So I try not to think that way. On December the 7th, I got a phone call from his grandmother, my ex mother in law, because at that point he was having to live with her because of his health. And I got a phone call from her and she said that Jonathan was out of his mind. He didn't know where he was and he didn't know who she was. And she said, I think he's back on drugs. And I said no. I said, Alice, he is having altered mental status. You need to call an ambulance. There is something wrong. And my relationship with her is not the greatest. And so she kind of got ugly with me and hung up the phone. And I tried to call her back. She wouldn't answer. I got up early, early the next morning and I called her and I asked her if everything was okay, if she called the ambulance for him. And she said he walked out of the house and she locked the door behind him and that she didn't know where he was. So I hung up the phone immediately and I called the police department in that little town that they lived in. And I explained to the officer on the phone, I said, my son is having a medical emergency. He's been wandering the street since last night. I need somebody to go find him. And I explained to him what he looked like and everything like that. And he said, Ma'am, I just came on. Let me talk to the ongoing officer, and I'll call you right back. It wasn't five minutes later. The police chief of that town called me and said, ma'am, we found your son laying in the street three doors down from his grandmother's house, and they had flown him to Tyler, Texas. And they gave me the phone numbers and everything, and I called, and the clerk at the desk was asking me all these questions and everything like that, and I was telling her what the police officer had told me, and she said, yes, your son is here. And the nurse, I could hear her behind the clerk, and she said, Is that his mother? And the clerk said yes. And the nurse said, Tell her to come. Um, so I did. I drove down to Tyler from Salisaw, stopped and picked up my oldest daughter on the way. And on my way, I called my sisters. My sisters still live down in Texas. And I called them, and I said, please, please go to the hospital and be there with him just in case I don't make it in time. And so my oldest sister and my younger sister went, and they would call me every 30 minutes or so, every time the nurse would come in or whatever, and he was already on the ventilator. They had put him on the ventilator the night before when they found him. Luckily, the paramedic had put him on the vent anyway. So I finally made it to Tyler, to the hospital, and I rushed up to the waiting room area of the ICU. My sisters were standing out there, and I could tell by the looks on their faces that this was really bad. And so I went into the room, and not long after I got in the room, the neurosurgeon came in, and he explained to me that he had had an abscess, probably from an infection in his mouth, and it had traveled to his brain, and it was a large abscess. And when they flew him, the pressure change caused the abscess to rupture. And if he had not been on the ventilator, he would have automatically died. So it was just the vent that was keeping him. And so I asked him, I said, can you please keep him until my other children and his children get here? And my husband? And he said yes. And then he asked me to sign a DNR. There's nothing worse, as you know, than having to sign your child's DNR.

00:25:31 - Jill Sullivan
Yes, we did it too.

00:25:34 - Jackie Carson
But in my heart, I knew that Jonathan was ready.

00:25:41 - Jill Sullivan
Yes.

00:25:42 - Jackie Carson
And he wouldn't have wanted us to prolong that journey for him, because of selfishness on our part. And he was ready to be with the Lord. And so his pastor at the church that he went to came, and several of the members came from this wonderful church. It's a recovery church. And they came and they prayed over Him and us, and we sang songs over him. Just beautiful people. And they told us about Jonathan. That Jonathan we didn't know.

00:26:25 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:26:26 - Jackie Carson
And told us about his love ministry, my son. And they were there with us for quite a while and just were wonderful to us and showed us God's love during all of that. And it was so comforting to know that these were the people that God had sent to, you know, and that he had found God through them, through their love to Him. And he turned around and he multiplied his gift. And it reminded me of whenever Jesus talks about the person and the gifts that he gives. And what do you do with those gifts? Do you bury it in the ground or do you go out and multiply it? And that's what he did. He went out and he multiplied it. He went out and he gave his testimony as often as he could. They did a thing that was called Jesus Burger, and it's where they served burgers to the public. But their main goal was to draw in those drug addicts, to draw in those people that were struggling, that were homeless, that were needing Jesus's love more than anything. And he would go and he would give his testimony. I have videos and videos and videos of all of these different times he would give his testimony. And it just blows you away to see this boy that I thought, Lord, and what a way God answered that prayer. What a huge way. He turned those prayers into just this service to the Lord. And he answered my prayers in a bigger way than I ever saw. I never saw that. I just wanted my son to not be on drugs, but he did it a step further. He took him and he took him out of that, and he put him out there to use Him for others. And that was just so huge. So huge. But after all of his siblings got there, his sister that's the RN, she was the last one to get there. And she came into the room. Of course, she's got to question the nursing staff because she's an ICU nurse and she's questioning them and she's making sure that they're doing everything. Of course they are. And they were so gracious to us and everything, and they allowed all of us to be in there knowing that that's a lot of people in a small room. But so my two sisters and myself and my children and Jimmy were all in the room, and they went ahead and they extubated him. And then about an hour and 45 minutes later, he passed. But in all honesty, he probably wasn't even there. Yeah, he was probably in Glory.

00:29:41 - Jill Sullivan
Yes.

00:29:42 - Jackie Carson
And the Lord let us have that shell to say goodbye to, because I know that whenever God calls us, we go, and machines may keep us, but it's just the shell. It's not but anyway, it was so hard. But then again, it was not, because the Lord had kept his promise. He had ultimately healed him. And my son was not afraid.

00:30:17 - Jill Sullivan
Yes.

00:30:18 - Jackie Carson
And he was at peace. And that was the one thing, even though it hurt so bad, that I automatically thought of I don't know if you've seen it or not, there's this painting, it's called The First Day in Heaven, and it's a young woman hugging Jesus. And that flashed through my mind instantly. And I'm like, that's what it's like? I know that's what he's doing.

00:30:45 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:30:45 - Jackie Carson
Because he loved him so much. He was so on fire for Jesus, and that's all he talked about from the moment he accepted Him. That was it. It was the Lord. That was it. And I was like, now you're there, now you know.

00:31:02 - Jill Sullivan
And aren't you glad you had those times where he told you, I'm not afraid?

00:31:06 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:31:07 - Jill Sullivan
I'm ready.

00:31:08 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:31:08 - Jill Sullivan
So you knew that he had that peace.

00:31:10 - Jackie Carson
Yes. And that was such a gift to me from the Lord.

00:31:15 - Jill Sullivan
Yes.

00:31:16 - Jackie Carson
I think that was the Lord talking through Him to me to say, it's okay, he's mine now. He's going to come home to me and you don't have to worry anymore. You don't have to sit up and worry at night. Am I going to get that phone call tonight that he has overdosed? That was my biggest fear the whole time that he was out there doing those bad things, is that I'm going to get a call or after the fact and he'll have overdosed, and how horrible that would have been. But the Lord just saved him and saved him and brought him through and just made this beautiful thing out of and I say it, the ashes of that life. He made this beautiful thing out of Jonathan and just it blew me away. I was so humbled by the Lord and how he answered that prayer in such a huge way.

00:32:16 - Jill Sullivan
Huge. Yeah. That's a wonderful gift.

00:32:20 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:32:22 - Jill Sullivan
I always take notes while people are sharing their stories at retreats. And I wrote down something. It resonated with me because I really felt like it applied to Hannah too, even though our stories are so different. But you said in death, his testimony was so much more. God gave him the ultimate healing. So what did you mean by that?

00:32:45 - Jackie Carson
The Lord took that brokenness and everything like that and turned him into this beautiful thing. And then when he took him away and took him home to heaven, whenever we went to his memorial service at the church that he attended, it was standing room only. And these people, these young men that were going through the rehab spoke about Him and how he showed them the love of Christ and that they would never forget that. Love that they were shown. And I thought, what a testimony that is. What a testimony. He's not even here and he has that testimony still that'll live on in these other people, right? And this one man found Jonathan's Bible and he was like, I gave it to the pastor. And at first I thought, oh, I want that Bible. But then I thought, no, I want somebody else to have that Bible, because there's probably notes in that Bible that they would know, they would understand and they would know and be able to use that Bible. And so they kept that Bible. And I think that that was just so huge to me that the Lord used his life in such a huge way, even if it was just the last 18 months, his death glorified the Lord. It glorified the Lord.

00:34:16 - Jill Sullivan
Yes. Well, and you'll never know well, probably in heaven, you'll know, but until then, you'll never really know the full impact of those last 18 months of his life.

00:34:27 - Jackie Carson
Right.

00:34:28 - Jill Sullivan
And that was possible because of the first however many years, 20 something years of his life where he did struggle so much, God was able to use all of that to bring glory to Himself. And that's a great blessing. 

So on the day we're recording this episode, which happens to be August the 18th, it's been exactly eight months today since Jonathan went to heaven, and that's still so early on the grief journey. Could you talk about where you find yourself right now at this point in your journey?

00:35:04 - Jackie Carson
It's still kind of day by day for me. I find that I take comfort in the Lord and through song. I love to listen to music. And I find comfort in writing on my Facebook page and sharing a little bit of my journey along with others, because I feel like if I keep it all in there, then it's just going to eat at me. So I find comfort in that. I still have hard mornings. Mornings are always the hardest for me. But I found out that the gift of prayer from others and to be able to pray for others through the While We're Waiting website, to be able to pray for those others gives me a sense of peace because I know I'm not alone and it's a shared grief. But then maybe part of this, I can help someone else through this journey because I was so blessed whenever Brittany came to me and said, let me tell you about this place that I went. And to be able to go to that because when you walk through your doors there, the Lord is there. And the peace that you automatically feel the moment you walk in that place, the Lord is there. And I find comfort in knowing that Jesus holds us. We don't hold him. He's holding us. And there are days, let me tell you, I'm just dangling because sometimes it's overwhelming, and he just holds me so tight, and I just know that he's there. And a good friend of mine told me, they were like, get on your knees on the side of your bed, lay your head on your bed and pretend your head is in Jesus's lap and just cry and let the Lord hold you. And I do. It works.

00:37:18 - Jill Sullivan
What a great visual that, you know that's just an awesome visual. Yes.

00:37:24 - Jackie Carson
Yeah.

00:37:24 - Jill Sullivan
I love that. I love that. Yeah. I was going to ask you, what advice would you give to a newly bereaved parent? Somebody that just finds himself at the very beginning, which you're practically there, what you just said about getting on your knees beside your bed yes. And laying your head in Jesus' lap, that may be the very best piece of advice you could give.

00:37:45 - Jackie Carson
Yes. And don't expect too much out of yourself.

00:37:49 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:37:49 - Jackie Carson
Take it moment by moment and understand that the Lord is there to hold you up. Even when you can't hold yourself up, he's there and he'll hold you up. And I find the best comfort in knowing that he holds me up. He's the one. And he has my son. What better place to have Him than the Lord's loving arms? That's where he's at. And that gives me the greatest peace, because he could have been in a much worse place, and he's not. He's with our Lord.

00:38:28 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, that's a great comfort, for sure. So is there a particular scripture or scriptures that have just really been meaningful to you and really helpful to you? I know there's probably a lot of them. See if you can narrow it down to just a couple.

00:38:41 - Jackie Carson
I got two Jeremiah 29:11.

00:38:44 - Jill Sullivan
Yes.

00:38:46 - Jackie Carson
For I know the plans I have for you, and that has always been one of my favorite scriptures, but it never resonated more than after his passing that the Lord has my future planned. And he knew way long time ago, when I first gave birth to that sweet, sweet little baby, that I wouldn't get to keep Him all of his life. But he knew those plans, and he has bigger plans for me and that there's not anything that's going to happen in this life intentionally to hurt me, but he's going to use it for his glory. And then the other one is Psalms 46:10, be still and know yes.

00:39:34 - Jill Sullivan
The name of your group. Very good. Yes, I love that one, too. In fact, I just recently got a T-shirt with that on it. Be still and know that I am God. I wear that at retreats, and it's a reminder to me for sure, as well as hopefully to others. So people a lot of times feel awkward around a parent that's lost a child because they don't know what to say. And I remember being where you are at about eight months in. It's almost like everything that people said to me was hurtful. Yeah. So what are some of the things or how have you dealt with some of the things that have maybe been said to you that have not been helpful?

00:40:17 - Jackie Carson
Well, I have a coworker, and she's one of those people that speaks first and thinks later.

00:40:24 - Jill Sullivan
Sure.

00:40:25 - Jackie Carson
And she's a great person. She's really sweet, but she just is a loud kind of person. And this was the day before Jonathan's birthday. And she comes into my office and on my computer screen I have Jonathan's picture. Anyway, she looks at him and she says, wow, he has beautiful eyes. He would have made beautiful children. And I was just like I looked at her and I said, Please leave my office. I was so upset. And I know she didn't mean it in an ugly way, and I know that she probably didn't realize what she had even said until she was probably halfway down the hallway. But I cried so hard, and I thought to myself, how could she say something so hurtful and without any kind of feeling? How is that affecting me? And she didn't realize that she had said something like that. But I have to actually pray about things, and I have to pray that the Lord keeps my tongue behind my teeth sometimes because I work around a bunch of nurses and you can imagine.

00:41:39 - Jill Sullivan
Oh, sure, yeah.

00:41:41 - Jackie Carson
And luckily it hasn't been too bad. But that one thing just kind of happened and I talked to her about it later, of course. I had this large gift on my desk the next Monday. I collect gnomes and I come to work the next Monday and there's this huge gnome sitting on my desk with a bow on top of it. And I know exactly who it came from. And she told me she'd given it to me, and that was her way of saying I'm sorry because sure. And I told her, I said, I know you didn't mean any harm by it, and I know you were just trying to compliment his eyes and his curly blonde hair. She said, I don't even know. She said, Sometimes I just say things and it just comes out and I just don't even anyway, but most of the time, people avoid me instead of come and talk to me. I think because I don't smile as much as I used to that they kind of see me coming and they turn down a different hallway. That way they don't have to ask me how I'm doing.

00:42:54 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah, that happens a lot.

00:42:56 - Jackie Carson
Yeah, which is okay, because I really don't want to answer the question.

00:43:00 - Jill Sullivan
Right, exactly. So what are some of the most helpful things that people have said or done?

00:43:08 - Jackie Carson
The most helpful is that they say that they are praying for me and they have no idea what I'm going through. But if I need to talk to somebody, even if it's just a ramble on, they're there for me. And that's a big thing, because sometimes you feel so isolated, there's nobody to talk to, and you just kind of feel like you're on a lonely island all by yourself and there's no one to talk to. So to have somebody say that to you and be earnest about it, that's been very helpful. And then I've gotten several little comfort things, like the gnomes. My nurses have overwhelmed me with gnomes. I have all of these gnomes all of a sudden. I started with just a few. Now the office is covered in gnomes. Wow. And I have a few that will come and check on me first thing in the morning right as I get there, make sure that I'm okay. You need a coffee? Do you want me to … is there anything I can do for you before I go home for the day? Because they're overnighters, and that means a lot to me that they take their time even though they could be going straight home and going straight to bed, that they're willing to go to McDonald's and get me a coffee or something. And I think that is just their way of letting me know that the Lord loves me and is watching out for me through these others..

00:44:51 - Jill Sullivan
I love that God uses other people to bring comfort like that.

00:44:55 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:44:56 - Jill Sullivan
And then he uses us as we move farther along on the journey. And you've already said you want to be that person who's able to comfort others, and I can see where Jonathan got his desire to help others from. I think that comes from mom.

00:45:10 - Jackie Carson
Thank you.

00:45:11 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah. Right after Jonathan went to Heaven, your family had to face Christmas. That was just right on the horizon. And since then, you've had his birthday in April, you've had Mother's Day, and now you're eight months in. So you've been through some of the firsts, but not all of them. Is there anything that you have discovered that helps you through some of those hard holidays, birthdays, things like that?

00:45:38 - Jackie Carson
Being close with my other children for, like, his birthday, we attempted to do Chinese lanterns, except we didn't buy any. We tried to make our own, so we had flaming balls of paper going up into the sky. But it was a lot of fun.

00:46:02 - Jill Sullivan
And you live way out in the country, so it didn't bother anybody. Right.

00:46:05 - Jackie Carson
Yeah. Just set a couple of patches of grass on fire, it was fine, right?

00:46:09 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah.

00:46:09 - Jackie Carson
But we choose to or I choose to during those hard, hard times, because my birthday was January the 7th, and I choose to think about what he would want us to do, what would he want for us to do? And I know he wouldn't want us to sit around and be sad. He would want us to be out there carrying our own crosses and spreading the word of the Lord, because he would ask me, mom, how should I pray for my brother and sisters? And I said, Pray that they find the Lord like you have the Lord, that they find that fire that you have. And he would pray that way. And I know that's what he would want is for them to know the Lord the way he knows the Lord. And that's what I choose to do, is to do something to honor that memory.

00:47:18 - Jill Sullivan
I love that. I think all of us that have lost a child have this very sharp dividing line in our lives … kind of the before and the after. Talk about the before Jackie and the after Jackie.

00:47:33 - Jackie Carson
Before, things didn't really … my priorities were not the way they should be. I did not make it where my main goal was to be more aware of what's really important in this life, which is not only my relationship with the Lord, but my children's relationship with the Lord. And after his passing, it came into sharp view that I really need to make sure my own house is in order. I've always been an attender of church and I've always had a relationship, but sometimes you tend to just kind of it's not the relationship that you should have. And that has changed for me. I cling to Him tighter than anything. I think I pray more than I ever have in my life, even in the middle of the night when my eyes open, because I don't sleep well yet. When my eyes open in the middle of the night, the first thing I do is start praying and talking and asking the Lord. And as I'm driving to work in the morning, I'm in conversation with the Lord, and I try to make that my priority, is my relationship with the Lord because I want to get there and I want to be with my son someday. And I know that it's all about the Lord. He is the one that's going to get you there. And I want the Lord to shine through me to others, and I want others to have what I have. I want them to have that assurance that when I close my eyes here on earth, I will hear the Lord call my name and I will be at home with Him and my son and everybody else that I've loved that's gone on home.

00:49:34 - Jill Sullivan
Yeah. I think a lot of bereaved parents have had that experience where, man, when your child goes to heaven, it just all becomes a lot more real.

00:49:44 - Jackie Carson
It does.

00:49:45 - Jill Sullivan
That relationship with the Lord becomes so much more important. And maybe it's because we really need Him at that point before that we can kind of live our lives and do our thing and not really be so dependent upon Him. But when we experience that kind of loss, yes, he's our lifeline.

00:50:05 - Jackie Carson
Yes, he is. And I think sometimes the Lord allows things to happen. So we have to call out to him. We have to cling to him and we have to have reliance on him because that's the only way we're going to make it through any of it.

00:50:20 - Jill Sullivan
Right.

00:50:20 - Jackie Carson
So I don't know how people survive the things that happen in this world without him.

00:50:30 - Jill Sullivan
Right, I agree. You mentioned that you really like music, that you love music, in fact, so you're going to love my last question, this last question I always like to ask. Has music been an important part of your journey? And if so, what is on your playlist?

00:50:48 - Jackie Carson
I love the song Gratitude by Brandon Lake. Someone that went to the rehab with Jonathan posted a video of Jonathan's testimony with that song. I had never heard it before until that video. And to me, that song, when it talks about having a lion in your lungs to get up and praise the Lord, I have to say that I think about my son. And that's what he did. He got up and he praised the Lord and from his earthly bed into his heavenly home, he got up and he is praising the Lord. And that song just means a whole bunch to me. I love Cece Winans. A good friend of mine took me to see her a couple months after Jonathan passed away. I love Alabaster Box. I love Believe For It. That song, Believe For It, that song just means a whole bunch to me. And then I love Brandon Heath and Casting Crowns and then Mercy Me. All of them have those songs that just speak to you sometimes. I'll listen to them just constantly, and that's all I have on in my car. I just have them on my iPhone and it's hooked to my car and that's all I listen to. I don't listen to any kind of mainstream or anything like that. And I used to listen to all sorts of stuff, and now all I listen to is that.

00:52:33 - Jill Sullivan
It feeds your soul.

00:52:35 - Jackie Carson
Yes.

00:52:36 - Jill Sullivan
And that's where you are at this point in your grief journey. You need to be fed and that's a great way to do it.

00:52:42 - Jackie Carson
Yes. And you can cry and listen to it, and it's like he's right there and he is with you in your sorrow. And there's a song, it's called Graves Into Gardens and the part where it says beauty for ashes. And he talks about those things and I think to myself, wow, yeah, that's right.

00:53:14 - Jill Sullivan
All right, well, we are about to wrap up. Is there anything else you'd like to share before we go?

00:53:19 - Jackie Carson
I just want others to know that there are some great grief counselors out there. I have one and she is a Christian woman and we pray after every session. And sometimes if you feel like that, you are at that point where you need someone else, reach out to someone else and get that kind of help, because there's no point in trying to do it all by yourself. And she is amazing, and she listens. And it's helpful to have somebody that can redirect you and tell you what you're going through is totally normal and to help you understand that it's all a process. I don't believe in the five steps of mourning and all that kind of stuff, and she doesn't either. And I think that any really good grief counselor, especially one that loves the Lord, is going to tell you that you're all right, that it's okay, you're not losing your mind, and that sometimes that's what you need to know is that you're not losing your mind.

00:54:33 - Jill Sullivan
Exactly. Yes. Well, I think that's great advice. Thank you for that. And just thank you for sharing so openly and honestly, talking about Jonathan's struggles, I know you went through many, many hard years with Him, but wow, how God has redeemed that. And like you said, I really think he's going to bring so much glory to Himself through Jonathan's story that you never could have anticipated when you were going through all those hard years.

00:55:04 - Jackie Carson
And I don't want another parent that lost a child because of drugs, whether they were actively using or if it was the result of lifelong use, and then they were right. I don't ever want someone that's shared that experience to feel ashamed because God can use all things for his glory, all things.

00:55:29 - Jill Sullivan
That's right.

00:55:30 - Jackie Carson
And it's not your fault … your children make their own decisions, and the Lord loves you and is going to use that for his glory. So that's what I would want anybody else that's specifically in the shoes that I'm in, to know that the Lord, it was already all planned out. He already knew it, the beginning to the end, and it was all in his hand, and there was nothing that I could have done or anybody else could have done that would have made that story different. And that gives me peace.

00:56:10 - Jill Sullivan
Amen. Thank you so much for adding that.

00:56:12 - Jackie Carson
You're welcome.

00:56:14 - Jill Sullivan
I know, there's somebody out there that needed to hear that, probably many people that needed to hear that. So thank you. Thank you for adding that. And thank you for being with me today. I appreciate it.