169 | The World Our Hearts Were Made For with Joey and Donna Sorters

I’m pleased today to introduce you to my friends Joey and Donna Sorters.  Our paths crossed several years ago when we worked in the same school district together … but at the time, we never dreamed we would walk very similar journeys with our children seven years apart.  In the first half of this two-part episode, Joey and Donna share the story of their remarkable son Jarren, who went to Heaven at the age of 15 after a ferocious battle with cancer.  His motto was “If you get knocked down 7 times, you get up 8”, and he had plenty of opportunity to live that out throughout his journey.  That determined spirit and competitive nature served him well, as he faced setback after setback with a positive attitude.  Listen in and be inspired …

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Transcript

Transcript - Joey and Donna Sorter

Jill
Hi, Joey and Donna. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Donna
Thanks for inviting us.

Joey
Yes, privilege to be with you tonight.

Jill
Yeah, well, it's an honor to have you with us. Let's start by giving you the opportunity to just tell a little bit about yourselves, tell the listeners where you're from and what life is like for you there.

Donna
We actually live in northwest Arkansas. We are both educators. Joey is a high school administrator, principal, and I am actually a speech language pathologist in the school district. So that's kind of where we are and what we do in our work.

Joey
You know, living in Northwest Arkansas, we're big Razorback fans and we always, of course, go to football and baseball for sure, and we try to go to basketball when we can, but we're big season ticket holders for the other two, so we do that. Donna and I now as kind of empty nesters have started camping. So we do that as much as possible and we just kind of sit back and enjoy life.

Donna
So it does look a little bit different because growing up the boys were so involved in sports that we were activity, activity, activity, either outside of school or in school. So we're kind of like since our youngest has graduated now, kind of trying to figure out, okay, what do we do now?

Jill
Yeah. What do we like to do? Yeah. It's kind of a whole different life. Yeah. We've known you guys actually for a long time because when we moved to the Hot Springs Area, Magnet Cove School District, Joey, you were there and Brad came in as the high school principal and we kind of knew each other. I think it was just a year before you guys moved on to Northwest Arkansas from there. So it's good to see you all … maybe two years that you all worked together. I don’t remember … that's been a few years back.

Joey
Been a while.

Jill
Yeah. Yeah. But we always enjoyed just knowing y'all. So we're here today to talk about your son Jarren. And I'd love for you to take a few minutes to just tell us all about him. What was Jarren like?

Joey
Well, I would say and not just because I'm his dad, but that boy was probably the most determined, competitive kid I've ever met. It didn't matter what we were doing. There had to be a winner and had to be a loser. There was nothing else. And I tell people all the time I created the monster because I was a coach and competitive and watching stuff. But he was determined to do what he wanted to do, but he was going to do what he had to do to win. So he was very competitive in that nature. I can tell a quick story about his determination. He was probably two and a half just walking and everybody has those Little Tyke basketball goals about three foot high. It was in the living room, and we'd play. And he got to where he couldn't just get the ball up there, the bigger ball, and he'd just struggle and he'd get so mad. But after about a day or so, his determination, he figured out if he could just go get up on top of the ottoman, he was up high enough where he could just make it so he would jump up on that ottoman and shoot it. But that was his determination from an early age. He was just determined to do what he wanted to do and be the best that he could be.

Donna
Yeah, all of those things, I think, are definitely descriptions of him. Just like, such a hard go-getter and determined everything was a game to him. Like, go to the mailbox, we'll time me. And then he would be like, hey, build me an obstacle course. Time me. And then he would be like, okay, I'm going to beat that time. And then he would want to do it again. But on top of that, he was also very compassionate and had a really good sense of those around him. One of the things that after he passed, one of the teachers told me that she's like, she did lunch duty every day, and she said, I never knew where Jarren was going to be on lunch duty because he would sit with one group, and then he'd be sitting over here. And she said, and then I would notice this kid's been sitting by themselves for a few days, and Jarren would go sit with that kid. So he was just like he had a great heart for kids. Like, he just was aware of those around him.

Joey
And he was such a leader. At a young age, people would talk to him, and he's like that's talking to a little man. He was such a leader because he didn't care whose feelings he hurt or if he had to step on your toes to win or whoever, he was going to tell you that. One of the greatest things, I guess, was he tried out for his first travel baseball team. I guess he was nine or ten, and it was an established team. They only needed about two players. He made it, and it wasn't probably two weeks later, they named him team captain. Didn't even know him, but they knew he was a leader. And kids followed him, and he just had that trait about him, but he had that drive also, that ability to push other kids to make them be better. One time they were doing football practice, and one of the kids  was like, Jarren said, go harder, go harder. And he was on the defense, and Jarren was on offense, and he was like, I was determined when that ball was snapped and Jarren took it. He was the quarterback. He said, I was going to tackle him he said, and I went through that line, and I tackled him, and I got him on the ground, and he said, I was like, Jarren walked, jumped up and high five me and said, yeah, that's the way you're supposed to. You know, he just really had that determination to make everybody around him.

Jill
Yeah, yeah. Well, and I can see, of course, we haven't gotten into his story yet, but how those character traits really helped him in what he had to face later in life. That's pretty amazing that God gifted him in that way as kind of preparation for what he was going to face. So at what point, with all of the things that he was involved with and the sports and all of those things, at what point did you realize that something was going on with his health?

Donna
It was probably March of his eighth grade year, and he was finishing up basketball season, and baseball season was starting, so he was practicing basketball at school all day, and then he was doing baseball practice games on the weekend. And one day he woke up, and he was like, mom, my body just hurts. I'm tired. Well, of course, we just kind of put it off to, you're growing. You're tired. You're working hard. You've got all these other activities going on. And so that was in March. And then about May, he started having some pain in his foot. And at that point, we were like, well, you've done something to it. He actually had had a small fracture in that left foot as a 7th grader. So we just thought it was a re-injury. So we had some tests run, did some MRIs, did some physical therapy, and that was in May. And so, I mean, that went all the way till the end of July just thinking it was just really a sports injury.

Joey
Well, I remember we were at the beach that summer, and I remembered, like, it was yesterday, we were at the mall, and we were walking around. He says my foot hurts. I got to go sit down. Okay? So I remember taking him to the truck, and he got in the truck, and he threw his shoe off, and he was like, oh, I just feel better. And then looking back now, that was probably the last time he ever wore a shoe. So we got back to the condo and the people we were with, and he was complaining about it. So we actually left the beach early because we could get him into an Orthopedic or some doctor here in town could get him in. Actually, our athletic trainer at school helped us get him in. So we drove back a couple of days early to let a doctor see him because he was just in pain and couldn't sleep at night, and so nobody slept. It was rough there for a while.

Donna
So that was that summer where he was 14, right before he was turning 15.

Jill
So when you got him in for that appointment, what happened?

Donna
Well, I took him to his first appointment. Well, I took him and they're like, we need a new MRI immediately. So I took him in and we had the MRI. Joey was actually in Little Rock at administrators conference.

Joey

 I remember Donna calling me and I remember walking through the lobby and I remember Donna saying, they're going to refer him to an Orthopedic oncologist. And I remember turning around looking at the lady, I was like, what is that? And she was like, oh, wow. I'm not for you know, we're trying to Google and look and see, but I had no idea what.

Donna
So I took him to that appointment, and they did the MRI. And then I guess it was probably the next day, I got a phone call from that orthopedic that was there, and he said, hey, there's definitely some unusual abnormal stuff we're seeing in his foot. He said, we need to refer him to Little Rock as he was talking about to an oncologist. He said, but I know they're going to want another MRI with contrast. He said, So let's bring him back in and get that done while we try to get everything set up. So this was the end of July, first of  August. Well, Joey and I both went back to school like the first week in August, like teachers do, and so we were literally trying to do PD and get our back to school stuff going and talking with Children's Hospital in Little Rock, like on trying to get appointments. And we went down there on August twelfth on a Wednesday, and we were there all day. We finally ended our day with the Orthopedic oncologist there, and at the end of the day, he was still unsure. He's like, I don't know, I think we need to track it some more. And then he said, let's go have one more X ray.

Donna
Well, we'd been through all these doctors appointments and we kind of got sent down there to get some answers. Literally, we were there all day. And he was kind of like, we'll come back in a couple of weeks, we'll look, and I'm like, something's not right, this kid's in pain. And he was like, let's do one more X ray. So they will there's like nobody in Children's Hospital at this time. I mean, it's after hours. So we do the X ray, we come back, and when they come back in after that, the whole mindset changed. He was like, you all are on standby surgery in the morning. I want you back here at eight or 8:30, and as soon as we can get a break in between, we're going to go in and do the I think it was a biopsy at that time. So the whole mentality of the doctor and his staff there, it changed after that X ray that afternoon.

Joey
So we went in on August 13, like you said, on standby. We were just waiting for him to be able to work Jarren in between surgeries. And it was after he had the biopsy, we got the call to come back to a room to talk to the doctor. And we were sitting in the room, and the doctor looked at us, and he was like, well, I did the biopsy, and we're sending it off, but I can tell you right now, it's cancer.

Jill
Wow.

Donna
And I remember literally falling out of my chair and said to this man, you don't know that. You don't have a biopsy yet. And he said, I've looked at it enough, ma'am. I do know it is cancer.

Joey
Yeah, I remember my first thought. I think I fell out of the chair, too. I was on my knees. And my first initial thought was, what did I do to be punished like this? And then I heard Donna kind of questioning the guy who'd been doing this for 30 years, and I kind of had to like, hold on a minute. He knows what he's talking about. But, yeah, it was never forget being in that little closet, I call it almost where he just basically said, your normal is no more. You have a new normal now. It changed us. Well, the whole course, the rest of our lives was changed in that two minute conversation there.

Donna
So that was August 13, 2015. And they pretty much were like, go home for a week. We will see you next Wednesday. And from there on, we started kind of getting a treatment plan together. We went back for two weeks every Wednesday and then the next Wednesday, and then they were ready to give us our treatment plan. I will say, for us, for Jarren's, cancer. Initially, they knew it was a sarcoma. They thought it was probably a Ewing's or a Synovial. But the test results come back, and it wasn't that. And so Dr. Nichols, he was our orthopedic oncologist … he was now, if Jaren was an older adult, I might say, you know what? It's not that important to narrow it down. He said, but we really need to keep narrowing this down, see if we can find the exact type of tumor it is. So they ended up sending his stuff off to a couple of other facilities. The one who finally identified it was from Canada, the lab that was able to identify it, and he was actually identified with CIC duct four. He was actually the second kid in Arkansas to ever have that diagnosis. So it's a really rare form of cancer, especially of sarcomas.

Joey
Yeah, because I remember when he told us that, the doctor told me, he said, you had a better shot at winning the lottery than a 15 year old getting this. Like he said, he said, if it was you, I would understand it. And it'd be a lot more common, but with a 15 year old and in his foot, he said, you had a better shot at winning the lottery than this happening. But I made the comment there, and I said, well, I guess you guys didn't want me to win the lottery because I couldn't handle that.

Jill
Yeah, it seems like an odd  juxtaposition of winning a lottery and cancer. I don't know. That's a great comparison, but yeah. Wow.

Donna
So just with this treatment, we went down, and it was the 1st of September. They were ready to start treatment. We kind of got our plan together, and having talked about Jarren, and we talked about how competitive he was and already talking about that, that was his go to. And one of the things they told us now, yes, we're going to do the chemo. Yes, we're going to do radiation, but we're also going to have to amputate his foot. And so that day, they told us that we would do a below the knee amputation and that it looked like it would probably occur in probably October, and then just going back to what kind of kid Jaren was. So that night we were actually staying in Little Rock. We weren't admitted yet. We were going to be admitted on Thursday, but on Wednesday, when we had that appointment, we were staying at a friend's house, actually. And I remember driving up in his driveway and, well, you know, even if I have it off I'll get a prosthetic, and I like, I can still pitch. You can easily pitch. And then he's like, and golf. Golf will be great. I already like to golf. I need some new golf clubs. He was already, in his mind, thinking of, okay, I'm going to beat this. What am I going to do? How do I tackle this next hurdle on me?

Jill
Sure.

Donna
So we did start his treatment, and then he had his amputation in October. Things looked like they were going well. He responded well. He handled the chemo. Of course, there were the weeks that weren't great, but overall, treatment was going well. Fast forward till the end of March treatment, the original protocol should have been over. He was doing great. He was in physical therapy. Like, during physical therapy, he was practicing baseball. He was doing weights. He was getting stronger. He really was rocking along. And at the end of March, they did a new Pet scan. And at that time, they told us that treatment had not worked and that it had spread to his lungs and that we would have to start looking for trials. Because they did tell us initially that there's, like, one standard protocol, and if that standard protocol doesn't work, you go to trials. So in April, we actually went to St. Jude's Hospital for about a week and a half, and we were there doing some different things. One of the things they were trying to do as a trial is some stem cell therapy to do a bone marrow replacement, stem cells and all of that. But it turns out that because of one of the places his cancer had already spread to, they had to radiate was on his back. So he actually was not producing enough stem cells for us to be able to be a part of that treatment.

Jill
Wow.

Joey
But looking back, that week we were in Memphis was probably the best week. We'd have to get up every morning. We'd go to the hospital because we were there on campus, and they drew his blood, and they said, we'll call you if your counts are high enough or whenever we needed to be to come back. So we would get up and go over there, and they'd do the blood. We'd come back and we'd sit there and we'd wait, and it'd be probably about an hour. They would let us know. And every morning they'd call him back, nope, can't do anything today. So he's like, what are we doing? What are we doing? So my sister lived in Memphis at the time with her kids, so it was literally vacation. I mean, we rode go-karts. We putt putted, we played in the yard. My mom and dad came up and brought our youngest son about midway through, and literally, it was just a big family vacation. He felt good. I know we were playing basketball. There's a little court there by our little dorm we were staying in, so, I mean, it was just constant. As soon as we got that phone call and he knew we weren't having to go back to do anything else, he's like, what are we doing? Where are we going?

Donna
Yeah, it really was. I felt like looking back at the time, you're just so disappointed. But looking back now, we're sometimes like, you know what? God gave us some really good quality time that weekend that we were in Memphis.

Jill
Yeah, that's a gift. It's just a special gift.

Donna
Huge gift. So from there, we did try a couple of other different trials. Nothing was working. And in June, they told us that it had spread even further, and at that point, there was really nothing that could be done. So we really had to begin to process through oh, my. Really? Because to be honest with you, we'll probably talk about this later, but the whole time, I was just waiting for God to do the miracle and heal him. And so that was the first time we really had to come with grips of, oh, that might not be the miracle God does is healing him on earth.

Jill
Right?

Donna
And so that was in June, and then we had great days that summer. And then at the end of July that last week in July, he kind of started to go down a little bit, just physically not feeling as well, sleeping more. And then on August the 10th, he went to sleep, told everybody he loved them, and he woke up in the arms of Jesus on August 11.

Jill
Wow. So you just now passed the eight year mark, right?

Joey, Donna
Seven year mark, yeah, the seven year mark.

Jill
Seven years. Seven years, yeah. My goodness. What an amazing young man. We, of course, had gone through our own cancer journey by this time, so we followed Jarren's journey and just were so inspired by his bravery and his determination. And the way he battled was just something really special to see and just a blessing. I know that he tweeted something when he was in the middle of this cancer battle, and it's a very special thing to you guys. What was that tweet?

Donna

Oh, it's probably one of the most special things to us. It was actually in the beginning of April when they were doing his lung biopsy, and it was before we went to St. Jude's for his trial. He was in the hospital to do one round to have a lung biopsy to start determining what trial we would do. And the morning before he went in for his lung biopsy, on Twitter, he tweeted, if you get knocked down seven times, you get up eight.. You know, that just like, to me is the biggest. That's who he was and that's the way he felt. Okay, another. I got knocked down. I'm just going to get up again. So we actually use that a lot. Get knocked down seven times, get up eight. Because that summarizes him and his battle, and not just his battle, but really the way he faced everything in life. It was like, well, that didn't go well. Let's do it again.

Jill
Yeah. Well, as a parent of a child going through the cancer journey, that same thing applies to us as parents. Every time they get knocked down, we get knocked down, too. And you just keep getting up with your kids and you just walk that journey with them. And you all walked it with him beautifully. So from the day of diagnosis to his homegoing was almost exactly one year. Right. Which that's basically very similar to our timeframe with Hannah. So how did you keep your faith through the ups and downs of that journey? Did you struggle with your faith during that time?

Joey
I don't know if struggle is the word. For me, it was more questioning, maybe more of because you got to go back. We were on the road to Little Rock two and three times a week, and there'd be times I would make the trip twice. So I had a lot of time in the car where it was just me and God was kind of like, okay. It wasn't really Why. It was kind of more because we all thought, okay, this is going to be the miracle child. This is the way he was. Good things happened because the way he did things, we just like, this is going to be the story on ESPN, the thing everybody's going to talk about.

Jill
30 for 30 episode.

Joey
Yeah, exactly. And it was just kind of like, okay. But then as Donna said, as it grew on, I learned and figured out that that's probably not going to be the ending that we had … to me is not really questioning why, but okay, what do we do next or what is your plan? It stinks that you use my kid for this plan, but okay, right, you did. So what do we do next or what do we do? People always say I don't even know how you get up in the mornings. I don't know how you do. You got to and it's all God, but your son's going through all this and he's fighting and he's not complaining. What gives me the right to was right. It was more to me that and I don't know, Donna may question or tell later, but it's going back to the whole prayer thing changed. The miracle is going to happen and we pray for healing, but once we got that final diagnosis, really, there's nothing we could do. We just did. The prayer for is more quality over quantity. So just try to make good and all the best days that you had left and live life to the fullest there.

Donna
For me, I grew up as a preacher's daughter, so I grew up in church.

00:24:04 - Jill
Sure.

00:24:05 - Donna
And I feel like maybe I had a sense of Pollyanna faith. It's kind of what I call it, where you just kind of believe, okay, if you do the things you're supposed to do, you go to church, you pray, you do that, then everything's going to be perfect. But early on, I was like, okay, that's not real. And there's actually the verse that I kind of like clung to during his treatment was Isaiah 43:2. And that's the verse where it says when you pass through the waters when you go through the fire. And that verse just stood out to me because I was like, it doesn't say if, it says when. And I just had to reconcile that we live in a broken world. Our hearts are not made for this world. This is not the world God intended for us, but because we live in a broken world, stuff's going to happen and it just sucks. There's no other way to say it, but I found that when we went through those waters, he was there with us. And so it was hard to reconcile that. No, it didn't turn out the way I wanted it to turn out, but I still believe that he was the God he said he was because every step of the way we were provided with everything we needed. In my head, as much as I had some hard conversations with God, me personally, like telling him how I felt and my anger, but in the end, if I didn't have the hope and faith in Him, I couldn't get out of the bed in the morning. That is what got us through that battle that year. And I feel like that faith and that promise, because God does keep his promises. We are daily living proof that God supplies our needs. So to me, his promise that we will not only see Jarren, but we will live for eternity with Jarren in the world our heart was made for. Yes. I mean, there were times that I never questioned God in that sense, but I questioned what I had always believed about being a Christian.

Jill
Right. I can relate to that too. I grew up also in that very Pollyanna type home where God is good.

Donna
God is so good and he is good, but this world is not good.

Jill
Exactly. The only way your faith can grow is through adversity like that. And it's not a real faith when your faith is just based on everything being right and everything being good. And definitely a diagnosis of childhood cancer knocks that stake out from under you.

Donna
Totally.

Jill
Yes. And I know that you're an advocate for childhood cancer awareness and this episode is coming out, it's going to be at the end of September, the Childhood Cancer Awareness Month. Talk about how important it is that people be aware of the prevalence of childhood cancer.

Donna
When you think of childhood cancer, you think rare, but it's not rare. 47 kids every day in the United States is diagnosed with cancer, so it's not rare. And for us, when we were going through this journey, we were so blessed by the people around us and the support we had. And when the battle was over and Jarren was healed in heaven, we were like, I just can't walk away and leave these people without something. So that's kind of we were like, you know what, maybe this is our calling. He had that tenacious spirit to fight. We have to keep fighting for the rest of these kids. It is important that we do everything we can to ensure that these kids who are still going through it, these families, that first and foremost they have support, but also that they see that if any way we can, that we can share God's word with them, share that hope that we had. Because the truth is, if you don't have that hope, I don't know how you get through it.

Jill
Right.

Joey
I can remember even back the first couple of times we had treatment and you could tell the families on the floor that maybe didn't believe or just struggled. I remember us talking. I could not imagine trying to wake up every morning and do this without knowing God's in control. We may not like it, but he is in control and his will is going to be done. And just people in and out of our hospital room every day, all day long and. People down the hall. Nothing. And I know we had that conversation. I just don't know how these people even can get up in the mornings because there's really no hope at all.

Donna
So for us it was just a matter of, okay, our battle, our trauma is not going to be in vain. Like we're going to make something out of the ashes that we've been given. And so for us, childhood cancer is just one of those things that we feel like, okay, there's a way that we can help people but we can also maybe hopefully share a little bit of our faith that way.

Jill
Yeah, absolutely. Well, and kind of a blessing that has come in the years since Jarren went to heaven. You guys were having to drive to Little Rock for all of his treatments and everything, and of course we were too, but we were a lot closer than you were. Now you've got a branch of Children's Hospital right up there in Northwest Arkansas, right?

Joey
Yes. That's growing every day and they're adding buildings, it seems like every day.

Donna
That's definitely one of the ways that we do try to support. And for people who are not familiar with Arkansas. The Arkansas Children's Hospital is in Little Rock. We are in northwest Little Rock. So it's 3 hours. So I mean, it was 3 hours just to go have blood work done. Like for everything, it was a three hour drive. And then for us, for our family, Jackson's in 7th grade, he's doing sports and we were going to do everything we could to help him have as normal of his life as he you know, like as Joey said, sometimes it would be all of us going down on Wednesday for the appointments. We would get in the hospital, get placed, get treatment going. He would come back to Northwest Arkansas to be with Jackson for his ball games and then get him to Friday night games, turn around. On Friday night he was driving back to Little Rock and getting there at 1:00 and you know, just being able to advocate for families here and the fact, if we could help support that and get treatment closer to home. And that's been really huge for families here. I do know.

Jill
Yeah, I love that. You know, we come to Northwest Arkansas frequently because our daughter is there. And every time I drive past that Northwest Arkansas Children's Hospital, I just kind of cheer inside for the people of this part of the state because it was just an hour drive for us and so we were able to manage that very easily. But I always felt for these families that were coming from so far away, didn't know how they did it. So that's wonderful.  A question I had for you, our Hannah, you know, she died as a teenager as well. And one of the things we really just struggled with, especially because like you guys, we're very much a school oriented family. Just the thought of her missing out on those things. She didn't get to go to prom, she didn't get to graduate. She didn't get to go to college, she didn't get to get married. And I know you all have experienced those same kinds of feelings. How have you dealt with that?

Joey
It was a little easier, I guess, for me, because I was at the high school. But I think Jarren only went to high school one day, so he never really was there in the middle of all of it. But it did sting a little when it should have been his prom night or homecoming or his first high school basketball game, those things. But like I said, it was kind of hard for me because I had to still be the administrator, the professional. But in the back of your mind, you're still wishing your kid was there. Donna may allude to this later, but we cannot say enough about Northwest Arkansas and our community and Prairie Grove. We were involved with everything senior night, he never stepped foot in the high school, but we walked on his basketball, which would have been his senior night, baseball night. They had a seat at graduation. They called his name. So we were still involved in those things. But now for me and Donna, too, I think how his friends are growing up, they're graduating college. Some of them are married, some of them have kids already. So it's kind of like, what are we possibly missing out on now? We'll never get some of those things are a little easier to deal with. Like we talked about personally, the Razorback games. To this day, it is hard for me to walk into a Razorback baseball game without tearing up. Sometimes I can't do it. Sure, I don't go near as much because when I sit down there, that's what I think about, is my two boys sitting there getting baseballs and autographs. Of course, that won't be there. But I know for Donna and the mom, she's probably missed the school stuff more. But like I said, I think the community and school and everybody did a tremendous job on including him and everything.

Donna
And I would just echo that. Yeah, I do feel like for a while there, you knew he would be at prom tonight, he would be at graduation tonight. So you just almost had to pre-grieve those and just mentally be prepared. Now it kind of sometimes just takes the breath out of you when you open the mail and there's a graduation, college graduation or there's an invitation to a baby shower or an invitation to a wedding. Because he's at that point now, he would be 23. He would be a senior in college. Would he be married now? It's all the uncertainties and the things you don't know. But a while ago when you said something, it made me remember when you said all the things he's missing. And sometimes I just have to tell myself, you know what? He is not missing anything.

Jill
That's right.

Donna
We are missing those with him. But he is in heaven celebrating every single day with Jesus. Sometimes I just have to make my heart talk to my head and be like, he's not missing anything. If you want what's best for him, I miss every single thing about it. But when you said, what he's missing, he isn't missing anything.

Jill
That's right. I have to remind myself of that too.

Donna
But I will say that we have stayed really close with his friends and that's been helpful for us, just being able to watch them and for them to still come back and talk about Him and include Him in things that's really special for us.

Jill
Well, and I love the way you referred to heaven just a minute ago. You said, he is in the world our hearts were made for. I love that you think about it that way. Our kids aren't missing a thing, but yes, we are. And those things make us sad sometimes, for sure.