EP 75 | Jon's Story: Sobriety Isn't Enough

What if alcohol isn’t the core problem—but escape is? We sit down with Jon Seidl, author of Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, to unpack a bracingly honest journey from cultural drinking to quiet day buzzes, from a bestselling book high to an aching low, and a night in Miami that tore the blinders off. Jon doesn’t glamorize a bottom; he shows how subtle compromises pile up when success fades, old wounds whisper, and numbing feels easier than feeling.

If you’ve ever asked why sobriety can feel flat or why white-knuckling fades, this conversation offers a clearer target and practical tools for the long haul. Freedom grows when we stop numbing, tell the truth, and let God fill what alcohol only muted. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review to help more people find a path to lasting recovery.

-

Jonathon M. Seidl (Jon) has been telling stories his whole life. In fact, he’s written over 10,000 posts in his lifetime, first after helping start a successful news website and then as the editor in chief of the popular nonprofit I Am Second. He writes and speaks all across the country on the power of storytelling, radical vulnerability, faith, mental health, and addiction. His first book, Finding Rest, became a bestseller in several categories and a top 100 book on Amazon. His latest book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, is his radically vulnerable story of being the Christian who became an alcoholic, his climb out of addiction, and how others can break free from all of life’s entanglements. Shortly after its release, the book became the top new release in addiction recovery on Amazon. He lives in Frisco, TX, with his wife and two young children. He holds a Masters in Theological Studies from Southwestern Seminary. 

Connect with Jon

Instagram @jonseidl
ChristianAlcoholic.com 

About the She Surrenders Podcast:

On the She Surrenders podcast we are talking about women, faith and addiction all on the same platform. There are many podcasts for women and sobriety, but very few for women seeking information and stories from others about faith-based recovery.   

Help us reach more listeners: like, subscribe, review, and share. 

Find us on Instagram @shesurrenders_sherry, on Facebook @shesurrenderssherry, and online at www.shesurrenders.com. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Welcome back to the Free Surrenders podcast. I'm Sherry, and my part behind this podcast is to bring you the excellent news that faith-based recovery is where you'll discover the joy in life you never thought possible while you were in the bondage of addiction. The stories you'll hear from women and sometimes men who have walked in your shoes or alongside someone you have will inspire you to pursue the same freedom they've found. This freedom comes from surrendering not only our addictions, but also our guilt and shame to God. Matthew 19, verse 26 tells us, with man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. I pray that today's episode brings you to a new understanding that this is true for you too, because it is. Now, on to our guest.

SPEAKER_05 1:09

And yes, it's a guy, and you're gonna relate to him. He wrote a book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, which drew me to want to find out more about him immediately. And we had a lot in common. To say we had a great conversation would be minimalizing it completely because we talk about a lot of things. He starts with the story of his fall, like all the stories here do, but then he talks about what brought him back. And he tells things a little differently than what you're used to hearing here. Um, calling alcoholism actually his escapism. And it's a really interesting theory, and I think it's one you're really gonna relate to. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did, and you haven't heard the last of John Seidel. So welcome, John. I am so glad you're here with us. Our listeners are in for a treat today and a little different voice from the usual female.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Although here's the irony about that, Sherry. Um, and I am not joking. My wife says I have like a drive-thru voice or a professional voice. And so every time I go through a drive-thru, I this is no joke. I order whether it's at Starbucks, Chick-fil-A, wherever. And I order, and they give me the total, and they're like, that's you know, 2233, ma'am, at the first window. And then I pull up and I'm this bald-headed, bearded guy, and like without fail. So I don't know. My wife says, I I just I guess I sound like a woman. So it's a different voice, yes, but to some people it's a female voice still.

SPEAKER_05 2:55

I've never ever thought that. I've never ever thought that. But you know, if I'm gonna have drive-thru voice John today, that's that's okay. Hopefully not. I mean, I don't think of it that way. But like I said to you before, I do know my listeners are gonna relate, even though we have a gentleman on the show today, because um your story very much resonated with me. And when I saw your book was gonna come out, um Confessions of a Christian alcoholic, I'm like, dang, why didn't I think of that name? Because it kind of rhymes with shopaholic, which, you know, that's attractive too, but it probably wasn't any of your problem. But what a great title. And also it just made me so curious about your story. And it's a good one as far as you know, the fall into addiction as a Christian goes. So um, I'm excited for you to share that with you today and then um talk with you a little bit more about that in your book. So as uh we usually do it here, I like you to just start sharing your story and um tell them more.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Well, thanks for having me, Sherry. It is it's been wonderful truly to get to know you. Um uh, you know, over these last. I guess we've been doing some of these Zoom calls. We've been in this group, you know, for a few months. Um and just even within the last couple months been able to get to know you better and can't wait to spend some time with you, hopefully, over the summer, you and your husband and at Sayla House. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for having me. Um, my story starts just across the pond from you there in the Holland, Michigan area. There's a car ferry that goes from Ludington, Michigan, all the way over Lake Michigan to the Wisconsin side. And I am from the town where the car ferry stops on the Wisconsin side, Manitowak, Wisconsin. Manitowak. Yes, and the drinking culture in Wisconsin, as as I asked someone about this on my podcast. I said, describe the drinking culture in Wisconsin, and she said, that is the culture. Um, and so why that's important is because it just drinking was something I grew up around, right? And everyone, no matter if you were, you know, a twice-a-week to church um person, like it just was part of the culture. And so to that end, I I got drunk for the first time in my preteen, early teenage years um at deer camp while hunting after getting my first year. Now, what's interesting though is I didn't have that type of experience that some people have where I get drunk for the first time and then it's just all downhill from there. For me, um, it was actually kind of a scary experience. Uh, I didn't realize it at the time, but I had undiagnosed anxiety and OCD. And so actually, um my OCD kicked in, and I was like, I was like convinced that I'd like killed someone because I blacked out. And so my mind like convinced me that like, oh my gosh, I remember checking the paper. You know, this is before internet uh uh online papers, right? So I remember checking the physical paper every day, being like, did I is there like an unsolved murder mystery?

SPEAKER_06 6:18

And um and that's what she's wow, you're really worried about the blackout thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

Yeah, I really was. Um, but here's the thing when I got drunk for that first time, you know, I had a um a chaotic upbringing. My sister was an addict, she was about two years older than me, and she made our lives a living hell. Um, there was some um sexual abuse, there was physical abuse in my past. And so when I got drunk for that first time, Sherry, it was like for for the first time, really, that I could remember, it was like I was free. It was like I didn't worry about anything, I could be fully present. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And uh and so even though I didn't continue getting, you know, this path of drunkenness, it was like my body and my mind remembered, right? And so I then started drinking regularly, you know, once I turned 21. And what happened then is like from that moment on I started this up and down relationship with alcohol where when life got stressed, when life got hard, I would drink more and I would drink to forget, I would drink to relax, I would drink to escape. And ultimately, what happened with me is my addiction wasn't to alcohol, my addiction was to escapism. And so throughout my young adult life, I just continued to turn to alcohol during those tough times. And so I would go through periods, right? I'd go through periods of really heavy drinking, regular drunkenness while I was a Christian, right? And it's just we just have that cognitive dissonance where we can justify or or whatnot. And then I'd scale back, and then I'd go in, and then I'd scale back. And that was really my life with alcohol. And I and I don't want to make it seem like I mean, there were still some like stupid times, there were some stupid things I did during during those. There were conversations I had with my wife that I couldn't remember. There was conversations where she's asking me to um to cut back, you know, all that stuff. And but in 2021 is where I think it got not think, I know it got the most destructive. And so in 2021, I release a book on faith and mental health called Finding Rest and about my mental health journey, my my anxiety and OCD, and what is what does it look like as a Christian to have a mental health disorder and and and to really kind of treat that brain, body, and spirit, right? And it's funny because Sherry, in that book, I talk about the fact that I need to watch how much I drink. Like I knew it, right? Um and I was in a pretty good, I was in a good spot when I released that book. And I had a buddy call me up though, who had uh who had uh released a bunch of books. Um and he says, John, you gotta be careful. And I said, Okay, why? And he said, You're gonna release your book and it's gonna come out, you're gonna do the media, you're gonna do the press, you're gonna get the you know, whatever. You're gonna do all the things. And once that dies down, you're gonna feel a little lost. He said, Because, you know, and especially I went with a traditional publisher, so that the publishing timeline is really long, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's like you this has been your life, not necessarily in a bad way, but it's just like you everyone's been asking about how's the book coming. You know, it's what what you're looking forward to, like everything has been about the book leading up to that point, and you're gonna get to that point, and it's you know, it's kind of like athletes that retire, right? Their whole lives have just been about training camp, and then it's just one, you know, or you win, you know, soup famously Bill Belichick and Tom Brady, like they win the Super Bowl, and then you know, the next day they're like, uh, yeah, we're just we're on to next season, you know.

SPEAKER_05 10:43

And and this was your first book, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:45

And so you don't know really what to expect.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 10:48

Nobody does the first.

SPEAKER_00 10:50

And so I I kind of listen and I'm like, thanks, you know. But in the back of my mind, I'm like, I'll be good. And listen, the book comes out, it does really well, it becomes a top 100 um book on all of Amazon. It's a bestseller in numerous categories. I'm flying all across the country, I'm on TBN and these this show, this podcast, you know, that thing. But sure enough, you know, like the the we get about a month after the launch, and it's very un unceremonious, you know. Uh books, books kind of just they just start to die out. Like, and and that's that's just the reality, you know? Yeah, and that hit me really hard. And and I started looking at like, okay, I got on this bestseller list, but I didn't get on this one. I got this podcast, but I didn't get this one. And I the devil started using those feelings of letdown to really start whisper lies to me that went back all the way back to tri childhood traumas, you know, things about my worth and my value. And do people really care? Are they really listening? Do they really want me? And slowly I just, you know, it wasn't like I just woke up one day and just started pounding bottles of bourbon. I got to that point, but it was just, you know, a nightcap when the k after the kids went to bed led to two, and you know, eight o'clock led to five o'clock, and five o'clock led to five o'clock somewhere. And you know, before you know it, you're just like, I don't have much to do today. I'll just kind of chill and watch a show, and you know, I'll just pour myself some bourbon. My wife's picking up the kids, it's fine. I'll just have a nice little steady buzz throughout the day, you know? And that just kept snowballing. And unfortunately, my life kept snowballing as well. So two weeks before Christmas, after that book comes out, two weeks before Christmas, I'm making the most money of my life. I will never make I just started a nonprofit, so I know I will never make this much money in my life. Um but I was making the most money in my life. And um it was, I was doing I had a consulting business. My background is in journalism and media and digital media, and and I was consulting for this Christian um company, and they had become my only client and because they were paying me so much, right? So they basically got all my time. Well, two weeks before Christmas, they come to me, they say, Hey, we're realigning, we're re we're like re-imagining the company. You're a contractor, and your contract's up at the end of the year. And I'm like, What? Like two weeks before Christmas? Like, what am I gonna do? And so that gave me an excuse to drink a little bit more, also gave me more time, you know? And so you fast forward then to the spring, and my son starts limping around, he's four years old at the time, and he um we take him in, and I mean, just kind of like out of the movie, we end up with an oncologist, and they're like, Hey, your son has a tumor in his shin. And even though that tumor ended up being benign, it it just you know it threw us for a loop, right? And it's just it was more more drinking, more drinking, more drinking. And so that pattern and that spiral just kept going for about two years. And May 2023, um, wake up, my my wife and I have planned an anniversary trip down to Miami, South Beach, Miami. Um, our our anniversary is right around well, it's always Memorial Day weekend. And so we try to pick someplace new or exciting, and so we pick Miami. And and ironically, Sherry, and I get into more detail in this book, I had actually given up like two weeks before, I kind of had this realization, like John, I think you're an alcoholic. But then I so I stopped drinking, but then because I could stop drinking for two weeks, I was like, Well, obviously I'm not an alcoholic.

SPEAKER_05 15:17

I was gonna say, so when you thought that, did you think you were a special alcoholic? Like, but I could probably drink once in a while.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I just thought, no, I just thought I had I had I had gone too far in diagnosing myself. I was like, no, you're not really an alcoholic. Like that's a little dramatic, right?

SPEAKER_05 15:39

Like my wife's Thank God, I'm not a professional, like yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

My my wife says, like, you know, you can be dramatic sometimes, right? And I'm like, I was just a little too dramatic. I'm not really, you know, sometimes I can be all or nothing, you know, and I'm just not really an alcoholic. I thought I was an alcoholic, but I'm not really, right? Because I stopped for two weeks and I felt good, it was great. So on this anniversary trip, I'm like, and my wife has always been, I'm not your babysitter, I'm not the Holy Spirit. And she's I mean, she had been praying for a decade um that I would come to this realization. But when I came to her and said, I think I'm good, like we'll just go on this anniversary trip, I'll just have a little bit. She's like, Okay. You know, she was always just like, I'm gonna have to come to the end of myself. So we get down to Miami, and second or third night of the trip, um, she's like, Hey, I'd I'd kind of like a night in. And she's more of an introvert, I'm more of an extrovert. But here's the thing. Um, oh, and she goes, and she goes, uh, you know, feel free to just do whatever you want. If you want to walk the boardwalk, if you want to, there was a basketball game in town. She's like, maybe you should get tickets to the basketball game. And I'm like, no, this is prime drinking time, baby, you know? And I'm like, no, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go to another hotel bar, I'll have a couple drinks, I'll have a couple appetizers, I'll watch the basketball game, I'll watch the NHL playoffs, like, because in the end, I am not a party drinker, I'm not a let's just go out, you know. My my my family members who are bar hoppers, you know, bar drinkers, not me. I'm a stay at home, shut my mind off, just relax, just be with myself, not have to think about anything. And so as I'm turning to go down to the hotel bar, she goes, Okay, don't get drunk. And because by this time, even though I was hiding it, I was hiding the depths of it, you know, it was, it was, it was breaking through, you know? And I looked at her and I said, I won't get drunk. And I can tell you, like so many people listening to this, that I would have passed a lie detector. Like if you hooked me up, I would have passed a lie detector. Because um I truly set out not to get drunk that night. But for a guy who writes a book, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, and as you know, like the story the that's just where the story starts, right? And so I go down to the hotel bar, I have one drink, I don't know how many I have after that, and by the end of the night, which is really the the start of the next morning, I shut the hotel bar down, and I am wasted. And I'm like, I cannot go back to the hotel like this, and so I um I'm like, hmm, I need to sober up. So I'm gonna walk down, walk across the street to South Beach, walk across Ocean Drive, and I'm just gonna sit there until I'm sober enough not to make an ass out of myself when I return to the hotel room. And so I get down to the beach, and I'm sitting there, and pretty quickly I have to go to the bathroom. And it's like, well, I shut the hotel bar down, can't go back there, and at one in the morning on South Beach, there's a lot more people than you would think doing all sorts of things. And I'm like, well, shoot, I can't just like, I can't just like go to the you know, I can't just like turn around and go to the bathroom here. And so I kind of look and I think, you know, the world's biggest toilet is in front of me. And so with all my clothes on, Sherry, I wade into the ocean, I start going to the bathroom, like neck deep in water, and it starts coming out of both ends. And I'm you know, I'm sitting there, you know, waiting in my own feces, and I just have this realization like what has your life become? You know, like I truly set out not to get drink not to get drunk to that night, and this is what happens, you know, like I I have fully lost control. And um and so the next day my wife asked me about it. I lied to her three times, I call it my Peter moment, and but by the end of the night, I admit to her, I said, Yeah, I did get drunk last night. And she's devastated, right? Because I lied and all that stuff. And and then I'm making all the promises. I'm never gonna drink again. I know I need help. I start and I can't stop, you know, all that stuff. And she looks at me, and this was probably the most pivotal moment of my life. She says, John, I don't care if you never drink again. That's not what I want. I want you to get to the root of why you're drinking. Because if you don't, even if you never drink again, it's just gonna be something else. You're just gonna trade one addiction for another. And I kind of am like, can we go back to the not drinking part? You know, like that's that's what that would have been better because, and she as she pointed out, she goes, John, you have traumas in your past, you have things you've never dealt with, and uh and I'm like, I don't want to deal with those, you know. Um and I think in the end what I realized is uh the traumas and the things that happened as you know from a kid, it wasn't that I was necessarily drinking those away, although at times, sure, but it was that those things created habits of escapism, you know, and and and it became to the point of like because at six when you're being molested and whatnot, like you don't have a category for those things. And so you start like, how do I get away? How do I not think about this? How do I deal with this? And at six, it's you know, you know, Tonka Toys and Barney, and at 36, it's tequila and bourbon, right? And so what had happened. And what I trained myself is that I can't sit with hard things. I can't deal with life without having some form of escape, which by the way is natural. Like we can't all just sit with all the crap in our lives, right? But what had happened over the previous two years is I just I turned to the easy solution. And like, listen, alcohol's effective. It's really effective. It's helpful, it's quick, it's easy, it's fun. And I mean, yeah, there's some consequences, but you forget about those, you know? Yeah. And I just didn't want to deal with that. Like I didn't want to have to go into those areas because I think the truth is, Sherry, is like we have parts of ourselves that are healthy, that are thriving. I mean, there's, you know, every functional, quote unquote, functional alcoholic here knows that there are healthy parts of yourself that could show up for work. You know, I never missed work. I never missed work because I was drunk or hungover. And I just didn't really get hangovers, you know? No, you're lucky, unfortunate, you know. I mean, I would get hungover, but I mean, I I never had those like I'm gonna be in bed all day, you know, that kind of thing. I just I would either power through it or whatnot. And so um, there's those parts of ourselves that can write a best-selling book on faith and mental health that can show up as a home group leader for our church, that can be on staff at our church, which I was, um, wasn't a pastor, but I was on staff at the church. And and right as my severe slide period started. And so we have those heart, healthy parts of ourselves. But then there's those walled off parts of ourselves that we're like, I don't, I'm not letting Jesus into that, because if I let Jesus into that, that means I have to open that door and see what's in there, and I don't want to see that. And then that and that's where so much stuff festers, right? And so, you know, we have this.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

I feel like when you yeah, you have the conversation, but I feel like essentially what you're saying is when those hard things come up, your brain, your body's going, shut that down, shut it down, not going there, not going there. And that's what we mean when we say we want to numb, we want to do anything to avoid that. And 100%. Someone said to me recently, wasn't it easier not to drink? And I'm like, to physically not drink, yeah. But to deal with everything that I had to face for the first time, and they thought the hardest thing would be going to a social event where there was alcohol. Heck no. No, it was the things that you'd been stuffing that were hurtful for the past however many years.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Hundred percent alcohol, you know, popular saying in AA, alcohol wasn't my problem, alcohol was the solution to my problems, and that is so true, right? And so then you take away my you take away my solution, like that's why early sobriety, and even sometimes now, Sherry, it's like I don't pretend. It's not that I want, it's not that I'm craving a drink right now, it's that I'm craving escape. I'm starting a nonprofit. My goodness, that's not like that's not easy, you know? And it's like, okay, is the money gonna come in? I mean, you know this, and you're like, I'd really love to escape, right? Yes. And so that's what the next year, you know, we cut we came back, um, we picked came back home, and that was my commitment. I said, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna dig in, I'm gonna relearn coping mechanisms, all that. And so for the next year is what I I just I met with a trauma therapist, a Christian trauma therapist. We worked through this stuff, and and slowly but surely the the life, if you will, started to come back. Um and I finally was able to learn what it looked like to sit with myself and to sit with my own thoughts. And it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy, um, but it was best. And and that, you know, kind of started this journey, this journey to sobriety, which is what you know, the book talks about the story, and then it talks about what I call the four steps that I took um to break free. And so that's where I am today. And I tell people, listen, like they're like, Did you do 12 steps? Did you do? And I I didn't. Um, and part of my conviction there is just I didn't, I knew that I couldn't just shoot for sobriety. Like I had shot for sobriety in the past and got it for a couple weeks or a couple months or whatnot, but I knew that I had my I had to fill my life with something better. And as a Christian, I know what that is, right? And so what I say is I took a gospel-centered recovery approach, and what that means is I shot for Jesus and got sobriety thrown in. And that's what I'm doing now every day. Every day is I'm shooting for Jesus and I'm getting sobriety thrown in. And that's what my story is about, that's what my book is about, and that's what my now ministry is about. So there's the the shortened version of the of the story, hopefully.

SPEAKER_05 27:09

Super condensed because I've I know the whole entire story, and um it's an amazing story. Thank you for sharing. And yeah, if they want to know all of it, um they're gonna have to read the book, which is an amazing, amazing book. Um, because not only is it your story, it's helpful. And you cite so many other authors. And um, I I started this rabbit trail of books that I was downloading. I mean, I have so many books to read just from all the people you quoted in here, and it's so good. It's so good.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Funny, I'll take people behind the scenes on that. Like, I just so for me, I I think that part of that comes from my journalism background, right? Where it's like, if you say something, you back it up, right? If you if you if you repeat something, you know, and so actually at one point I had way more references, and finally the the publisher was like, have you said this in the past like yourself? And I'm like, Yeah, they're like, Okay, it's okay, you can say that, right? Like, they're like, they're like, they're like you, you you gotta cut back on all uh on all the footnotes in the in the end notes. And I'm like, okay, fine. So there was even more in there, Sherry.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Oh, because there's a lot. I'm looking at all the pages, and I'm like, Yeah, I'm my Kindle is like on overload, so and my good reads and all that, but it's good, it's all good stuff. When you said in the very beginning, you said that first time you drank and got drunk, you felt free and fully present. I haven't heard it described like that before, and in a backwards way. I like it because it's so it's such a good description. Um I always said that the danger in drinking when there's so much addiction in your family is it's it's only gonna take a few times for your brain to say, you know what, that works. That takes care of something hard. I don't need to be told again. I mean, we're pleasure seekers, we're we're dopamine chasers. But also about the escapism, you know, that it gave us. What do you practice for positive escapism now? Because there is such a thing, right? Yeah. So what's your what's your thing? Like you don't I mean, when you come up against something hard, you don't get you don't have to, you can't sit down on the sidewalk and do a UMDR talk about what your therapist said, you know. So what's the you know, is you know, because like I teach a lot and sometimes I feel like okay, I'm giving them a lot of Jesus and they're looking at me like, but sometimes that's just not gonna work for me, you know? And yeah, you can be filled with all that, but what's some of your um everyday positive escapisms?

SPEAKER_00 29:58

Yeah, so I'll I think I'll break that down into two categories, right? And so I'll I'll give you the very, the very, very granular practical. So um I started reading a lot. Um I've read more books in the last three years, you know, than I ever read up, you know, in my life up until that point. Um not because it you know it's interesting, right? Because you gotta be careful. You gotta be careful that you're just not swapping addictions, right? Because I know some people, I'm in a I'm in a group, uh, a men's group where one guy um got over uh a sexual addiction and now he's addicted to like fantasy novels, not not graphic, not I'm not talking about like fantasy like as in sexual fantasy. I'm talking about just like just like you know uh worlds, right? And he's like, it's consumed me and I spend so much time doing it, right? So again, you gotta be careful, right? But um but I you know I I try to I try to go from fiction to a lot of nonfiction. So I read a lot. My wife and I have shows that we watch together, um, so we have series that we watch together and limited series and and whatnot that we watch together. I run. Um, which I've always uh again in my first book I talk about running, um, but now I joke that I run away from my problems, but in the healthy way. Because I I run and listen, you know, I'll listen to books or I'll I'll listen to podcasts and stuff. I know you walk and do that as well. Um I'll I'll do stuff with my kids. Um, I try to, you know, whether it's even if it's just like my son, he's seven, he likes to play the little video games, and so we do that, or my daughter, whatnot. Um, I piddle around in my garage, you know. I'm like, you know what, I gotta, I gotta, you know, let me make something or do something. I got really into like knife making for a little bit. Um so there's very practical things like that, but honestly, Sherry, the biggest thing, and and I don't want to say this isn't practical because I've actually found it to be practical. Is like I've become someone who now knows what it looks like to practically turn to Jesus. And it's just like it literally is picking up my Bible and reading. It literally is picking up a devotional and reading, it literally is just turning on worship music and listening. It literally is going to you know, if I couldn't get to sleep before, I would drink myself to sleep. And now and I I just I laugh at this person because I would have made fun of this person four years ago. But I literally pray myself to sleep. I I just have to, right? I can't shut my mind off. So I pray myself to sleep. And honestly, it's the most practical thing in the world. It just is. And like you said, I struggle sometimes with telling people that because they're just like a lot of people will dismiss it. And what I can tell you is that until you've done it, until you've gotten to the end of yourself where you don't like when I first gave up drinking, it's like I found myself pacing around my garage, pacing around my living room, and it was like, Lord, you have to come meet me, you have to give me peace or something because you've taken again, you've taken away my solution. You've taken away the thing that I use, the artificial means of peace. And so you have to fill me. You have to do something. And so I can do all those other things. I can watch the Netflix with my wife, I can, I can read uh a Brad Thor, you know, thriller novel. But at the end of the day, the biggest thing I found is I'm just turning to Jesus. And so that looks like Bible reading, that looks like praying, that looks like a devotional. That looks like journaling, right? So one very practically it's just like opening up. I have this thing, it's I mean, it's literally on my desk right now. It's this remarkable tablet, it's a digital notebook, and I have three years worth of journals, journal entries in here. And so I try to do that every day.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Um, so that's how I that is, and as you said, like um when you said running, and you know, I just shared with you that I went for a really long walk listening to a podcast you were in, um, and you said puts in the garage, and I pictured how often I have on praise music now to get me motivated to do something. Yeah, God is in the midst everywhere I am and in what I'm doing. Um there's certain things that, yeah, my husband and I watch a lot of shows too. But there's things that come on that I go, I don't think this is for us. You know, we both usually agree really quickly, and you know, it's just like it's it's what runs our lives. He does. And you talk in your book a lot about abiding, and um I love that word, it's one of my favorite words, and that's what we're doing. You're you're abiding in him, and you know, the more you get to know him, the more you want to honor him, the more you feel love for him. And just had this talk with someone today um about the things of the things of the world that separate us from God. And I said, You can't get quiet from quiet with God when you've got a blaring TV in the background and you know, um, your computer screen on with social media on and get really quiet with God because her journal had like six lines in it, and she's like, That's all I had.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

I'm like, No, you got more. You got more. Believe me, you got more.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

And and to and to that point, I would say, you know, I have a I have a sign. So by the way, abiding in Christ, you know, I talked about those four steps. This is in the second part of the book talks about these four steps. That's step number one. It's abiding in Christ, step one, step two is finding your true identity, step three is practicing radical vulnerability, and three is being obedient. And it all, but it all starts with abiding in Christ, right? And so I have this. Um, I have this, I'm looking at it right now. I have this sign up in my office that says it's a quote from Martin Luther that says, I have so much to do today that I must spend the first three hours in prayer. Do I spend three hours every morning in prayer? No. But the idea is that it's not it's not what time can I afford to spend with Jesus. It's like I can't afford not to. Because I'm starting a nonprofit, because I'm going on a podcast, because I'm doing all that stuff, I have to spend time with the Lord. Now, I generally like to do that in the mornings, but it doesn't always happen. Like sometimes it's in the afternoons. I like after this podcast, I didn't get my journaling done today. Like I'm gonna do that, right? Um, so I and I'm also not legalistic about it, right? And uh in the sense of like I set a time, you know, I don't set a timer on my phone and whatnot. It's like some days it's 10 minutes, some days it's you know, 35, some days it's an hour and a half, you know? Um and then the other thing I would say is I and I I joke about this in the book, is like I don't like calling them quiet times because I'm not a quiet guy, right? And so like it doesn't mean that you have to uh you know put on Enya or that you have to put on um I love you know Enya, yeah, right? Um like you can, you know, if like you Sherry, you're like if you blare the blare the the church music, and sometimes I just blare it and I walk around in circles in my office, and that's my prayer time, you know? Yeah, and um, and sometimes I'm calling out and I'm like, Are you kidding me, God? Really, really, you know, like you gotta come through here. Um and so quiet time doesn't have to be quiet, right? And so if you connect with the Lord more so on walks, you know, like we've talked about that with you. Like, go on a walk, go on a walk, right? Um, I know people who go on walks and then they voice their journaling, quote unquote, is they voice memo. They just record, you know, they text themselves voice memos, yeah, you know, prayers and whatnot. Great, do that, right? But the point is, you want to know how to have a most like you want to know how to get sober, but not just get sober and have the most flourishing, fulfilled life. It's it it it's abiding in Christ. That's that's what it is. That's what it is.

SPEAKER_05 39:16

Amen.

SPEAKER_06 39:17

That is so true.

SPEAKER_05 39:20

And many, I mean, I think that growing up Christian, same as you, I knew all the things. Yep. I thought I did, but it's the relationship. Yeah, until you have the relationship, it's not happening, and that's a lot about I mean that's where that's where true recovery lies.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:44

And that's where success lies. So not just sobriety, right? I don't even like the word sobriety.

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Yeah, it's like it's like when when I talk about recovery, when I talk about getting quote unquote sober, like it's not just about not drinking, it can't be. I know people, a lot of people that don't drink, and a lot of people that don't drink anymore, a lot of people who have found sobriety, and they're some of the most miserable people I know. Why? Because they're missing out. Yes, they've gotten sober, right? It was the thing that my wife said, you know, like just because I'm not drinking doesn't mean that I've gotten to the root of the problem, you know, and I can follow any, you know, any step you want me to follow and be sober. And if I am not shooting for Jesus, like as a Christian, by the way, this is the orthodox view, you know, and there's like people in in two are called to be. Yeah, and there's people in Christian recovery that don't like me saying this and don't like, whoa, you know, it's like I'm as a Christian, my orth the orth the foundation of my belief has to be that the most flourishing, fulfilled life now and in eternity is found in Jesus. That's just that's the that's the very basics of the faith, right? And so if I'm preaching that, you can actually find that through not drinking. Like I'm just your idol is just something different. Like you're you're you're not serving God, you're not following Jesus, you're following something else. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

Preach it. I mean, seriously. The you know, when someone's sober and they say, you know, like, yeah, and don't worry, Sherry, I've got God. I call you know, and you just know, you know, you're like, but there's more. I call that a flatline life. I'm checking the boxes, I'm not drinking, I'm holding down my job, I'm doing all the things. It's almost like monotone, like flatline life. Yeah, but I have never been happier, and I see that on you a hundred percent. I didn't know you before, but anybody that crafts in the ocean probably not happy.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

So you know, and here's the thing I tell people I it's not that I don't want you to be sober, it's not that I don't think sobriety is good. If you're if you are an alcoholic, if you are an addict, if you're whatever, if you struggle with that relationship with a substance or a food or whatever, sobriety is good, it's a good goal. It just can't be the ultimate goal, it just can't be the ultimate goal because what happens when you get that? You know, it's just just it's just anything. You know, if your kids are your ultimate goal, if your spouse is your ultimate goal, if your job is your ultimate goal, like you're just gonna be unfulfilled because that's not what you were created to worship. And that's ultimately, I tell people, like, we're like addiction is a worship issue. And I didn't come up with that, but it's like addiction is a worship issue. You're worshiping something different than what you were created to worship. You're worshiping the creation rather than the creator, whatever that addiction is to food, porn, sex, whatever, you know, your work. It's you're worshiping something that you weren't meant to worship, and that's why you feel unfulfilled.

SPEAKER_05 43:01

Amen. And I always say it's anything that comes between you and your relationship with God. Yeah. As Ash Wednesday, as we're recording this, Ash Wednesday is tomorrow. And everybody's talking about what they're giving up. And I'm like, why don't you think about what's coming between you and God?

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 43:16

As you're fast, you know, thinking about that. But when we were just what you were just saying, um, so true about going one step further. You can be to me, sobriety is like that analogy about you know, how do you run a race? Well you have to get off the couch. So to me, sobriety is getting off the couch.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

I like that.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Recovery is when you start training, when you start running. When you when you want the finish line. And to me, the finish line is standing in front of them. And hopefully it's so well done.

SPEAKER_00 43:54

The work was not getting sober, the work started once I got sober. I once I finally stopped drinking, once I was detoxified, like that's when that's when everything started. That wasn't the finish line. That was the starting gun. That's when you're like, we got work to do.

unknown 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:15

Time to start.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

Like, and I'm still in counseling. My wife and I are still in couples therapy. You know? It's like we're still working on stuff, still working through stuff. There's a lot of trust that I had to re and that's and that's saying, by the way, like there's a lot of trust that I had to rebuild with my wife and still am. And I didn't I didn't have an affair. Like I didn't my point is like you don't have to you don't have to just, you know, do something quote unquote really, really bad in order to have stuff to work on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:50

You know, and that's a great point. Because to me, getting that help in your marriage is so important. My my husband Craig used to say, I could handle the drinking more than I could handle the line. The dishonesty was so I shouldn't, you know. Um and I think about how I hurt him now and what we've had to work through. And that's what you and your wife are doing. You're doing good things, and God's gonna use you in this new nonprofit too. And I'll put some information about that in um our show notes too. But John, this has been great. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of the story and not making it fluffy, which is kind of a joke between us because I said I took him as credible when I knew he didn't make his last drink story fluffy and told the real truth about what happened. So um, and I'm headed to Miami soon, but I think I might just stick to the pool. I I don't know, there's just something I might look at the ocean differently, but I didn't think about that too, like that story.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Like my wife was like, you were wasted in the ocean, like basically chumming the waters for sharks, like you could have drowned, you could have got eaten, and it's like, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_05 46:05

Well, it it could have been self-defense because they probably went the other way. So you know, I do have I do want to know how you got back in your hotel room soaked for being in the ocean.

SPEAKER_06 46:18

Well, I came back up.

SPEAKER_00 46:20

I sat there. I like I like I I sat there for I don't even you know, you lose it had to be be a little while. But I I was basically dry then by the time I got up back to the hotel because I that answers that question.

SPEAKER_06 46:35

I don't think there's any way I could have got away with that, but you know I mean my clothes were kind of clean by then, you know.

SPEAKER_00 46:41

The ocean had done its stuff.

SPEAKER_06 46:45

You know.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

Okay, we better not go down that rope. All right. Well have um a link to John's book, his podcast called Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Which Sherry will be a guest on.

SPEAKER_05 47:00

Yes, yes, I'm excited for that too. And um, yeah, his nonprofit, all the things. And yeah, feel free to like, comment, subscribe, all the things. After this, you got a lot of good information out of it. And thank you so much, John. You've been just a wonderful guest.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Thanks, Sherry.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you found encouragement and inspiration from what you heard here. If you know someone who could benefit from the She Surrenders podcast, please share it with them. Let's spread the word about the miracle of faith-based recovery. Don't forget, like, share, subscribe, and leave a review. Because when you do these things, it helps get the message to those who are seeking answers that can only be found when we put down our addictions and pick up the promises of a whole new life when we walk in recovery with the Lord. Have a wonderful week, and I'll see you next time.