Jen Ivers 0:00
I want my students to be the agents of their learning. How can we continue to become better learners, and how can we stay curious and stay open? Because as much as we love the content, we don't know what world they're heading into. So let's just build learners who want to continue to improve themselves and their communities. I think those are the adults I'm excited to see enter our world.

Paul Beckermann 0:28
The topic for today's podcast is Authentic Assessment in the Age of AI with Jen Ivers. Unpacking Education is brought to you by AVID. AVID believes in seeing the potential of every student. To learn more about AVID, visit their website at avid.org.

Rena Clark 0:45
Welcome to Unpacking Education, the podcast where we explore current issues and best practices in education. I'm Rena Clark.

Paul Beckermann 0:57
I'm Paul Beckermann.

Winston Benjamin 0:58
And I'm Winston Benjamin. We are educators.

Paul Beckermann 1:02
And we're here to share insights and actionable strategies.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 1:06
Education is our passport to the future.

Paul Beckermann 1:11
Our quote today is actually from our guest, Jen Ivers, a language arts teacher and instructional development facilitator at Orono Public Schools in Minnesota. She recently gave a presentation about redesigning teaching units in the age of AI, and she said this about the students in her classes: "If they're going to be adults in our world who have skills and aptitudes that help them to succeed, what is it that they need from this unit to be those adults that are thriving in our world?" All right, Winston.

Winston Benjamin 1:42
I love that. For me, it's one of the truest ways to be future-ready or prepare our students for the future. Because a lot of times I hear people say, "Oh, I was never taught that when I was younger. I wish school would have taught me this." I think our teachers were preparing us for the world that they were existing in. Now we have to really think about asking real, genuine questions. We never had AI, but how would students be successful using this tool? How would kids be successful in tomorrow's world if I was trying to assess them?

So it really forces the teacher to also think about what it means to look ahead into their worlds, because I have some students right now who are going to be the class of 2030.

Paul Beckermann 2:36
Oh my.

Winston Benjamin 2:37
Exactly. So what does that mean that we are preparing kids for the class of 2030?

Paul Beckermann 2:46
And that's the question that they always ask, right? "How am I ever going to use this?" Well, as educators, we need to ask that question too. I mean, it's just as important for us as it is for them.

Paul Beckermann 2:58
Well, with that, I want to bring in our guest for today, Jen Ivers. As I mentioned in the lead into the show, Jen is a language arts and reading teacher as well as an instructional development facilitator at Orono Public Schools in Minnesota, just a little bit down the road from where I am. Welcome, Jen.

Jen Ivers 3:14
Thanks for having me.

Paul Beckermann 3:16
Awesome. We're so happy to have you here, and we're wondering if you could just take a minute and maybe introduce yourself a little bit more to our listeners beyond just the basic sound bite there that I shared to open.

Jen Ivers 3:28
Absolutely. I started teaching out in California. That's where I got my teaching credential, and I fell in love with it right away. I worked on a team of teachers that was highly collaborative. We had this beautiful, protected time for PLC in the work week every week, and I just had amazing mentors. I got a chance to go on all kinds of cool trainings, and one in particular was about assessment practices.

So from the very first year of my teaching experience, I got a chance to start questioning why are we assessing the way we are, thinking about the practices we experienced as students, thinking about what it means to grade equitably, and what should a grade book look like. And so that's the era of teaching I entered, which I'm so grateful for, because it meant that I came into this profession just asking questions and really asking how could we do this better? And how can we continue to learn better, so we can do better?

I then moved back to Minnesota, where I'm originally from, and I did a little bit of hopping around. I got a chance to teach English Language Arts. I taught English language learners and then reading. So it's during that time that I did my master's in literacy, and I just fell in love with teaching students to read and to write and to communicate well.

And now I have made my way a little bit out of the classroom, but I always sort of joke it's going to take a lot to move me entirely out, because I love teaching. I love being with students, and I love getting a chance to try in the classroom what I'm learning about to see how is it working and how is it not working, and what does this new skill or strategy or idea demand of me as the teacher and of the students.

So I just love to be in that space of learning with students and continuing to just become, hopefully, a better teacher every day. And then in the second part of my day, I do some work with our administration. I work with our PLCs, some of our MTSS work. So it's fun to see the other side, and it's really challenging. But my passion is teaching and working with young people.

Paul Beckermann 6:10
That's awesome that you get to balance those two worlds. Not a lot of teachers really get that opportunity.

Jen Ivers 6:14
I love it. It's a little challenging at times, trying to kind of move between the two worlds. So I would say this is my second year of doing it, and it's nice. I start my day with my students, so I get to wear the teacher hat for the first two periods, and then I switch into my other role. And I think that helps me compartmentalize. But as challenging as it is, I think it's teaching me to do both jobs in a better way. So I'm really grateful for it.

Paul Beckermann 6:12
So before we dive into the assessments full-fledged and look at some specific examples, I've heard you say in another seminar that you believe it's important for assessments to be authentic, and it's a little bit of a reference back to that opening quote as well. Why is that so important to you? And what do you mean by authentic when you use that term?

Jen Ivers 6:35
I think it's related to that idea that you guys discussed about our students being future-ready. And I think assessment is the way that we can come to understand how effectively we taught, but really how we can foster the development of the skills and the aptitudes that they need to be those thriving adults in our world.

So I think about any assessment I have, when I'm asking to what extent it's authentic, I'm asking to what extent are the skills and the knowledge that they're going to learn in that process, in the unit and through the assessment, to what extent will it be relevant to them when they enter wherever they choose to go after high school, whether it's postsecondary college, whether it's the workplace, whether it's the military. And I mean, that's daunting, right, to think how can we prepare students for this future we don't totally know, and we're imagining.

So that's kind of the creative part of it. But we can also look at things we know to be true, how important it is to know how to problem solve and collaborate and communicate effectively. So authentic assessment, to me, is just a means of making sure that I can ready these young people to be as efficacious in their future world as they can be.

Winston Benjamin 8:13
That's awesome. A lot of times people say we want it to be authentic, but to be authentic means that you have to do some difference in the writing, in the engagement. There has to be a little bit of a redesign. So you did a lot of redesign and work with your PLC team and your support team and trying to figure out how do I make this authentic? You did a little bit of work with a unit and transformed it into a writer's room. Am I correct on that?

Jen Ivers 8:28
You are correct. I work on an amazing PLC. I mean, I did even from my first few years as a teacher. So I feel I've been so blessed to work with incredible educators who are just givers and are creative and are interested in getting better.

And this team, really, we had to remove a text. It wasn't even, it wasn't "let's AI-proof this unit" at all. It really stemmed from removing a text and saying we're going to redesign this unit. We've removed the text, so we now need to have a new assessment.

And our PLCs are given either a half or a full day each semester to have some release time. Our principal is very generous about giving us time, because time is the thing teachers often say we don't have enough of, right? And as hard as it is to leave the classroom for a day, sometimes just getting that space with your PLC to ideate, to be creative, is exactly what you need to sort of breathe inspiration into a unit.

And so we took this unit and we said this is a coming-of-age unit, right? What are the things students need to know and be able to do? So we look through the standards, and we asked what do they really need? What is it they must know and be able to do? And then we asked, in our world today, where do students come across coming-of-age stories?

And for all of us, it's we're remembering these amazing coming-of-age sitcoms we watched growing up, the things we watched with our family and our friends, the things that taught us about how hard it is to come of age, the mistakes you make coming of age, how you bounce back from those. And so we decided, what if we pretended for the next six weeks or so that the students were in a writers' room in Hollywood?

And at the time we created this unit, the writers were actually on strike, so we were sort of "okay, we don't have any new shows. It's up to you ninth graders. Let's see what you can do." And they just blew us away. I mean, it was incredible.

And the first time we did it, we didn't have generative AI to interface with the students in any way, shape, or form. So it's also been just amazing to watch it unfold as we've been able to introduce new tools and new ways for students to accomplish the task that we designed.

But essentially, they come together in a group, and they design a coming-of-age television series. They have to give us a synopsis of it. They do a storyboard of it. They write a little bit of the script. They do a table read of the script. They have some choice elements—they might do costuming and setting design. They create trailers, which is super fun.

And all of these elements, we pull exemplars from the real world. So in terms of as a teacher, when we're thinking about authentic assessment, everything I used was from The Wonder Years, Boy Meets World. And we got a chance, Only Murders in the Building—we sort of carefully watch how someone has designed the pilot episode and what it needs to accomplish.

And at the end, they give a pitch, a persuasive pitch, and they say, "Here's why, Miss Ivers, you should fund my show." And we act as the show runner. And then we decide at the end. So it is, I mean, it truly is my favorite unit of the year. It is so much fun.

And coming into this, I think about other assessments where you're "oh, great, I have to write a test," which is hard and not fun, and then the students take it, and it's maybe hard and potentially not fun, and then you grade it, and all the while you're wondering was this the best way to assess any of these skills or any of this knowledge?

So I just think this was an opportunity for students to get hands-on experience in these skills and aptitudes that we really want to see them grow into as young people.

Winston Benjamin 12:37
I love that. So you said it started pre-AI, right? Now everything is AI, AI, AI, AI, AI. I can't even buy a ticket on an airplane without getting AI. So how did you now redesign to incorporate AI? Because in order to help support students with their intellectual development and also the tool, how did you think about that redesign?

Jen Ivers 13:12
Yeah, that's a great question. We had to really think about where would AI fit, right? And to be honest, I would ask kids to think about this with any tool they're using for a unit. Where, what is the purpose of this tool? What's it going to help me accomplish? Is it the best tool that I have for this purpose? So very similar thinking there, right? Just metacognitive.

But at the beginning of the year, I spent a little time talking with my students about how their brains develop, because I figured if I am going to help them understand when to strategically use AI to generate for them, then they must be able to make decisions about when they're developing a neural pathway and when they're developing this one. So therefore, they can use AI to do something else, right, to outsource a part of the work that isn't being assessed or that is not the neural pathway they are creating.

So we started the year by learning about how the brain learns, why learning is hard at first, right? And then how we build those pathways, those highways in our brain that make it easier and easier and easier to do the thing we're learning to do until we're proficient. And that helped to frame our AI use in this unit.

Because I could say to them, "You are showing me that you can use a flashback, that you can use an advanced literary technique in your storyboard. So that's the skill I need you to build the neural pathway to do. Do I need you to, am I going to assess you on the title of the pilot episode? Or could you use generative AI to come up with 10 ideas, and then you can decide what's your audience going to be most interested in, what speaks best to the story?"

So I really think it was just in saying, kind of pulling the curtain back and saying, "This is how your brain develops. Here's how AI can come to the table. And there are really skillful ways to use it, and then there are some unskillful ways. And the only way for you to learn that is practice, modeling, seeing how I use it, watching how your friends use it in a space that's safe and scaffolded and well-conceived, right?"

We didn't just put Gemini in front of them without kind of really thinking about what they would need to engage with that well. But then they did. We did a lot of prep work to scaffold, but then they just blew us away. I think that they were really craving an experience where they could use it and not feel "Oh, my teacher is watching and, oh shoot, close down Gemini. I don't want her to see I'm using it."

Instead, it was "Hey, tell me about how you're prompting it. Tell me about this final result. Is that what you wanted, and how did you problem solve when there wasn't character consistency in your storyboard?"

So I think as a team, we really had to figure out what kind of language are we going to need to have a hearty conversation about AI use.

Paul Beckermann 16:16
So I can hear your excitement with this whole thing. So I know that you are enjoying this. I'm curious, how did the kids respond to this whole thing?

Jen Ivers 16:22
They were great. I mean, this is, I do think it is one of their favorite units in the year, partially because they're so captivated by looking at professional storyboards, trailers, really studying it, and then seeing how they're capable of achieving something. I mean, really, it is amazing how close they can get to something that's professional.

It's also extremely social. But I would say one really beautiful part of this unit is students get to take on different roles in their group. So you have a visual editor, you have the script writer, and usually that's a couple students helping and editing. You have the person who's doing the costuming and the set design, so they're a little bit more artistic.

They each also have a sort of a producer who is a student who's maybe good with their management of kind of the project as a whole, breaking it down into small parts, making sure they're meeting deadlines. So I think that being able to step into a role that fits their aptitude also really helps, building on their strengths, and then getting a chance to do that in collaboration with others. It is really a joy to watch.

It's never perfect, right? They have to, I mean, they have to problem solve together. They have to navigate at times where a group may not have all of the aptitudes and skills that might help this to be successful. So that's challenging. They're stretching and growing. But it is amazing how much they come alive when they're able to, I would say, really step into their gifts in that space.

Paul Beckermann 18:17
Yeah, and you mentioned the messiness. I mean, there's kind of a beauty to the messiness sometimes, because that's sometimes where the kids will surprise you, and they'll respond in a way—wow, that was A+ mature there, what you just did. So I'm kind of curious to piggyback on that idea. Has there been anything in this process that's kind of surprised you, or a situation where a student really impressed you beyond what you were expecting?

Jen Ivers 18:35
We have high expectations for them, so that they rise to that occasion isn't really surprising. I mean, in 15 years of teaching, in kind of a silly way, because they surprise you with how amazing they are, then you just expect students to step into that space and show you their best, and they can, and they do.

So I am always really heartened by how they support each other. I think they sometimes, just really the level of professionalism of something they will come up with is amazing, or if it really hits their audience well, they'll get big laughs out of the group, or the "oh, we should have come up with that idea." So I think that sense of how novel, how creative they can be, is really inspiring.

But ultimately, that human intelligence mixed with now being able to use the artificial intelligence, it's just wonderful to see how organic and messy, and ultimately, they get to that finish line, and they turn in great work, and they've gained skills that then we carry throughout the year.

This is a unit we do really kind of right away at the beginning of the year. And the way it lays a foundation for their collaborative work, how they're going to use AI, is so helpful in every unit that follows.

Paul Beckermann 19:59
Yeah, I love that. Building the foundation and high expectations lead to high performance. I love that too.

Winston Benjamin 20:04
Absolutely. So one of the things that I love is that you're actually teaching students about responsible use of AI, right? Because, again, kids will be kids. I use the calculator all the time. I still don't do my multiplication tables, but whatever, it is what it is. I still am successful. But one of the things that I think is important is you said it, that there's an idea of a natural, organic building of how to do that.

Could you talk about the skillful versus non-skillful use of AI, and how do you use that in relation to your district's responsible use scale for AI and in that process, right? How do you support that thought and then action step? If that makes sense.

Jen Ivers 21:00
I had the benefit of being a part of the emerging tech cohort in our district that then developed the responsible use scale. So I have just been so fortunate to be really mentored by and supported by our technology department, whether it's going to ISTE with them, or having them in my classroom to help me work with technology in a new way with students.

But that cohort was amazing because you got so many different educators with really different ideas about whether AI was going to be great in the classroom or existentially terrible. So you really had to sit in that space with people that you respect and talk about, how will we give language to what is responsible and skillful use of AI?

So I got to see that unfold, and then I had a chance—we all do now in our district—to use that scale in the classroom. And I think in a lot of ways, it's been a great scaffold, right? It gives us language for how to teach students about the bumpers and the boundaries around responsible use, given the task in the unit and the class, right? Because that's going to change, how much AI you're using in any one unit or for any one task.

And the one thing I kind of think about is then there's also, just as a professional, I never really live in any one section of that rubric. I'm always kind of bouncing around. I'll do a single project, and sometimes it's "This part's purely AI-free," and then all of a sudden, over here, I'm vibe coding. So it's really, it's messy to grapple with that, and it's messy for the students too, because they're trying to figure out—they're gaining competency in their AI use while they're gaining competency in the boundaries around that, just what it is and how it works, and how well they can do that, and then to what extent they can use it.

So it is complex. I rely on teaching them to be more metacognitive about it than to really become certain about anything. There was a presenter at ISTE, I think they were actually just referencing a quote about how the future punishes certainty, but it supports clarity, right? That's what I think about. Can I give them clarity about their purpose? Can I give them clarity about how the tool works? Can I provide them clarity with how AI learns, so that they can think about their data privacy and clarity around privacy? What does that mean? To what extent do I want privacy and for what reason?

So I focus so much more on that than any one specific scale or any one part of the scale, or that they really know what's yellow and what's red and what's orange. But I'm grateful for the scale, because it has given us language to start having these conversations. Without it, it would be so much harder.

So yeah, in terms of an action step, I just started using it. I just brought it into the classroom. I remember thinking, "I don't exactly know how this is going to work. I don't exactly know how I'm going to teach them about this." But I put it on the board, and I said, "This unit is AI-assisted. Here's what that might look like." And I started naming it. We started talking about it. They talked about it with their groups. And then over time, I passed the talking about it off to them, and I passed that metacognitive piece off to them.

So when they turned in their final products, I let them know that they would be accountable to telling me how they used AI skillfully. And essentially, we connected that back to how the brain learns, because "I'm learning how to identify a theme and trace it across a text. This is why I used AI in this way, because I'm learning to do this. Skillful AI looks like this in that context." Or "because I'm learning to do that, here's what skillful AI looks like," and we just name it for each other.

And I think too, you kind of start to build up that bank of "oh, okay, that's kind of what unskillful AI looks like"—we outsource something that I actually have to know and be able to do on my own. One example might be we made a gem that students could use to do some grammar. We needed way more grammar practice than we had generated. And I wanted it just to be more that they could direct the AI—"oh, I want that more challenging" or "I need you to explain that to me"—rather than just a bunch of grammar practice that we could create for them.

And a student called me over and he was "hey, it's giving me all the answers." And I was "Oh, just tell it not to." And so he did, and it was fine. It stopped giving him all the answers. But essentially, he was "yeah, no, I need to learn this, but it's giving me the answers. So how am I going to learn it if it's just telling me all the answers?" That is so skillful of him to say "I gotta know this when this is over. Help me turn this answer machine off."

Paul Beckermann 26:14
That's very mature.

Winston Benjamin 26:16
Very. So I have a question on the scale. Is it moving from left to right, from unskillful use to more skillful use? Or how is the scale defined?

Jen Ivers 26:31
Yeah, the scale is really more about skillful use, not so much about unskillful. So it moves from left to right, more in terms of what AI is going to do for you, from "AI is not going to do anything for you" to "it's going to assist you." It might help you with your grammar and checking your spelling. And then AI all the way up, I might use AI to do something that I can't do without it.

And so most of that does not live in my year of ninth grade English. We don't really get all that way up there yet, and that's probably appropriate for ninth grade English. I think about students as they get older, developmentally, perhaps.

But for me, that might look like I have learned a little bit of using AI to code and to make app scripts. I cannot code. I don't know how to code. So that's when we think about AI-empowered. I have the ability to kind of check my work and to ask for help and to get other expert feedback so that what I'm making isn't unreliable, but I don't know how to code, so it's doing that for me, right?

So that's kind of what our scale looks like. And then what I did in the classroom was to bring more language to it about skillful and unskillful use in the context of our assignments and our work.

Paul Beckermann 27:51
That's cool. You've talked a couple times about different groups of teachers that you've worked with as you've developed some of these things—your PLC, and then you were in the cohort. I'm curious, when you're redesigning and doing that creation process, what does that look like from a team perspective? How do your team dynamics work? Is there a process you go through? What does that look like for you and your people?

Jen Ivers 28:16
We're given, we're really trusted. When we went to redesign this unit, I felt like we had so much trust. I mean, I didn't feel like we needed permission in order to change this summative to say "we want something that's more purposeful and more unique."

So I think it begins there. We felt that we had that creative license to bring our unique skills to the collaboration table. My PLC is incredible. They are giving, and they're vulnerable, and they're generous, and they're willing. They're kind of willing to try things, even when we feel a little nervous about it.

And to that end, you'll hear quickly you'll get a chat "Okay, this went great, but avoid that." And so we're trying, I think we're really trying to live out what we want our students to do. We ask our students to collaborate with people that they don't necessarily know well, or that maybe they don't or they wouldn't choose to be friends with. We ask them to collaborate around content that maybe isn't their favorite or they're not proficient in, so they're being vulnerable, right?

And there's, I think it's so important as an adult to model that. You hear about people who struggle with PLC work, and it is not always easy, right? Just to be very frank, sometimes collaborating can be really hard. But I think if we aren't willing to model that in our professional learning communities, then it's really hard to go into my classroom and to feel a sense of integrity asking my students to get into that messy collaborative work.

That said, I have learned so much from the process of collaborating with my colleagues around a unit like this, just really, really benefited from the expertise of teachers who have done other incredible things or are just gifted in other ways.

And then we have an incredible set of specialists that can come to the table too. Our digital learning specialists will walk into your room, they'll teach a lesson, they'll come to the table when you're collaborating. We have a curriculum implementation lead who is incredible, so she helps us think about those standards and "Okay, how do you find balance in a year, making sure that you're getting all those skills that are called for in a way that feels good?"

So I think ultimately, being able to step up to that table and to collaborate and to get into the messiness of it, I think can build beautiful, beautiful things for your students, and then also opening your doors—open your door to have somebody come in and watch and see, open your lesson plan, send them an editable copy of that, whatever your slide deck. There are so many people who can come and help, and want to. And so I think if we're just willing to be more vulnerable, it has transformed my teaching.

Paul Beckermann 31:18
And that's hard. That vulnerability is, well, it makes you vulnerable, and people don't want to feel that way, so I commend you. And having that open of an atmosphere in your school, that's wonderful.

Jen Ivers 31:30
I mean, it isn't, yeah, it's not Pollyanna. It can be messy, for sure, but I think that's what I believe in. I just, I think it's worth it.

Winston Benjamin 31:42
Absolutely. And I think you've provided our audience with a couple of tools, from how to just start, right, how to start the use of AI, how to help your students engage with it. But we always have a question, and it's time for our important question.

Paul Beckermann 31:56
What's the question, Winston?

Winston Benjamin 31:58
What's in your toolkit?

Transition Music with Rena's Children 32:00
Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. What's in the toolkit? Check it out.

Winston Benjamin 32:11
What are you taking away from our conversation that you think you can implement within the next couple of weeks, or some sort of idea for someone to walk away? Paul, what's in your toolkit?

Paul Beckermann 32:20
I am still hanging on the real-world piece that Jen's been talking about, making that authentic. And actually, just today, I was in Conmigo, which I just found out is free for educators now, which I did not know. And inside of Conmigo, there's a real-world context generator, so you can actually put in your unit topics, whatever, and it'll give you examples of what you could do in the real world. And you could do it probably with any generative AI chatbot, but it's already got the kind of prompts pre-filled a little bit for you, so that's an option if you're looking for real-world connections. The real-world context generator in Conmigo from Khan Academy, go for it, Winston.

Winston Benjamin 33:03
Would you mind connecting with my classroom to talk about how you might use AI in your job? Hey, we got a guest from sending a random email to say "Hey, would you be a guest at our podcast?" Hey, it may work sometimes.

Oh, it works. So speaking of the guests that we got from an email, Jen, would you like to add a tool in our toolkit?

Jen Ivers 33:28
Yeah. I mean, I might piggyback off of that. Open your door. Open your classroom door. Let someone come in, let them watch, let them breathe fresh air into your teaching. Learn from them. They'll learn from you. But yeah, reach out. Open the door. It has only ever helped me, and I think about how it benefits all of my students to get to have access to these other brilliant adults in our building and in our district. So yeah, open the door. Open the door.

Paul Beckermann 34:00
Sweet. So we're gonna open the door to our one thing.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 34:04
It's time for that one thing. Is that one thing?

Paul Beckermann 34:15
All right, it's one thing time. Time for our final takeaway of the day. Winston, you get the start.

Winston Benjamin 34:22
I'm gonna say start. Jen didn't have the answer at the end, but she walked the path with her students, tried to do the best she could for them within the moment in their classes. So I think just start, try it. Nothing beats a try but a failure, and then you could try again.

Paul Beckermann 34:46
Awesome. I'm thinking about when Jen was saying that it doesn't surprise her when her students do amazing things. We got to get to that place in more of our classrooms. I mean, that is high expectations, but it's also belief in our kids and knowing that they can be awesome if we allow them to be awesome. And I really believe that. I think part of the key to that, that I've heard from Jen, is that metacognitive skill development, getting kids to think about what they're doing and to really understand the process of their thinking. Wow, that's some powerful stuff. I love that.

Paul Beckermann 35:25
All right, Jen, you get the final say today. What would you like to leave our listeners with?

Jen Ivers 35:33
I'm thinking about that idea of authenticity and metacognition. I want my students to be kind of the agents of their learning and to feel efficacious. And in order to do that, I think we just have to pull the curtain back and start having those conversations about what this looks like, and kind of back to that skillful and unskillful use of AI, but really just how can we continue to become better learners, and how can we stay curious and stay open?

Because as much as we love the content, we don't know what world they're heading into. So let's just build learners who want to continue to improve themselves and their communities, right? I think those are the adults I'm excited to see enter our world. So yeah.

Paul Beckermann 36:22
I love that, and we want to thank you for brightening our world today, Jen, and giving us a few new things to think about. Thank you so much for being with us.

Winston Benjamin 36:31
Absolutely.

Jen Ivers 36:32
Thank you for having me. This has been great, you guys.

Rena Clark 36:35
Thanks for listening to Unpacking Education.

Winston Benjamin 36:38
We invite you to visit us at avidopenaccess.org where you can discover resources to support student agency and academic tenacity to create a classroom for future-ready learners.

Paul Beckermann 36:51
We'll be back here next Wednesday for a fresh episode of Unpacking Education.

Rena Clark 36:56
And remember, go forth and be awesome.

Winston Benjamin 37:00
Thank you for all you do.

Paul Beckermann 37:02
You make a difference.