Dr. Betty Webb 0:00 There are no throwaway kids and there are no throwaway teachers. We find the genius in everybody.

Winston Benjamin 0:14 The topic for today's podcast is Finding the Genius in Everyone, with Dr. Betty Webb. Unpacking Education is brought to you by AVID. AVID believes in seeing the potential of every student. To learn more about AVID, visit their website at avid.org.

Rena Clark 0:35 Welcome to Unpacking Education, the podcast where we explore current issues and best practices in education. I'm Rena Clark.

Paul Beckermann 0:46 I'm Paul Beckermann.

Winston Benjamin 0:48 And I'm Winston Benjamin. We are educators,

Paul Beckermann 0:51 and we're here to share insights and actionable strategies.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 0:56 Education is our passport to the future.

Winston Benjamin 1:01 Our quote for today is from Gretchen Brion-Meisels, a faculty member of the Harvard Graduate School of Education. In an article about welcoming student input and giving them a voice, she comments, "It means recognizing that young people have a perspective on the world that adults can't share, and that their perspective should be welcomed alongside the wisdom that adult perspectives bring." Paul, Rena, what do you think about that quote?

Rena Clark 1:34 It gives me chills, really, especially the part where it says a perspective alongside wisdom that adults cannot share, because it really reminds us that student voice is not optional. It is essential to what we do. Young people see things differently, and they see it in ways that we cannot. Especially with my own kids, I'm realizing that more and more as I'm aging. It's really about how we invite those perspectives in alongside our adult wisdom. We have wisdom, but they also have a unique perspective, and we need to merge those two together and think about how they can really balance each other so we can support them.

Paul Beckermann 2:22 Yeah, I'm right with you, Rena. We need to respect and honor the unique perspectives that they have. They can learn from us, but we can learn from them, and when we give them that space to have a voice in our classrooms, they can thrive and we can enrich the entire community in that classroom. I love that quote.

Winston Benjamin 2:44 I appreciate that. Once a man, twice a child — sometimes we grow and forget that we were young once, and that we also wanted people to hear our voice. It's invaluable. We are so excited to welcome our guest, Dr. Betty Webb, to the Unpacking Education podcast. Thank you so much for being here and taking your time with us.

Dr. Betty Webb 3:04 Well, thank you for having me. I'm honored to have been asked to be on this podcast. And if I should start out, that means I'm done.

Winston Benjamin 3:19 This is going to be a fun one. One of our goals is to really help our audience understand who our guests are. Do you mind giving us a little bit of your background and your career in education — who are you?

Dr. Betty Webb 3:35 I've been planted here in Minnesota for a long time. I came here from rural Louisiana to get an education. I wanted to be the first person in my family to graduate from college. I came here with a goal in mind, and I was even more motivated when I went to North High School here in Minneapolis. I was especially motivated to go into education when I was told by my guidance counselor that I was not smart enough to go to the University of Minnesota and that I should seek to do something else.

I'll make this a little short. Long story short, I got into the University of Minnesota, and when I got my master's degree, I thought, I'm going to find this joker. I looked through everything we had, including the retired teachers' books. I actually found him in California, and made sure it was the right Mr. — I won't call his name on the air — but I confirmed I had the right counselor. He said, "Oh yeah, I remember you." I said, "Well, Mr. Blank, I called to thank you." Now, that's not really why I called him, but when I asked how he was, he said, "I am not well. I have stage four cancer." And I had a backup plan — I had a backup. So my intentions changed. I said, "Well, I called to thank you for motivating me to go to the University of Minnesota. I now have my master's degree from the University of Minnesota, and I have been accepted into the Ph.D. program in education. I want to thank you for motivating me to do that." My Christian background would not allow me to do what I had originally intended.

It was with all of that in mind that I came to understand something. I always had an admiration for teachers, but that experience said, "You belong in education." How many other students have been devastated and gave up because someone told them what they couldn't do? That started my journey. I graduated from the University of Minnesota and spent 30 years in Minneapolis Public Schools. When I retired, I was Associate Superintendent for Elementary and Secondary Education.

I went into administration because I recognized the importance of leadership in schools and how leaders can either make or break a culture. When I do training with leaders, I say culture will eat strategy for lunch if we don't pay attention to it. Building a culture in an educational institution starts with leadership.

After retiring, I started a business working for the Center for Educational Leadership out of the University of Washington, focused on the importance of instructional leadership. As I observed leaders — both as a principal and as Associate Superintendent — many of them were good managers, but most were not strong instructional leaders. What matters most in terms of moving the needle for students is what happens between the teacher and the students.

I use this business term a lot: Who is your proximate customer? When we ask principals why they're in education, they say student achievement — but a principal doesn't teach any students. It's teachers who teach students. So my proximate customer became teachers, and my work was to support the growth and development of teachers so they could do the same with their students.

If I could change one thing, I would invest heavily in changing the climate in education around this country — shifting from evaluation to growth, developing the expertise of people so that they serve their proximate customers well. The proximate customer for teachers is kids. The proximate customer for leadership is teachers.

Paul Beckermann 9:32 You said you'd been thinking about one of our questions — if you could change one thing in our schools to make the biggest impact, what would it be? You've kind of answered that. What's the how? How do we do that?

Dr. Betty Webb 9:46 We have to change mindsets. Around the country, a lot of emphasis has been put on evaluating teachers. If we could switch that to growing the expertise of everybody who has a role in education, I think we would get much further. It's like measurement.

One of the things we did when I was working for the University of Washington was have conversations with students. We asked them what would make them happy and proud. I thought they would say more recess, or using their cell phones. What they said — and I'm paraphrasing — was, "When I get a paper back from my teacher, it makes me feel bad if there are red marks all over it." That said a lot about the culture and climate set in schools and classrooms, and about how kids feel. That put me on a journey of wanting to listen more to what students have to say.

As an administrator, I would go into a classroom and ask a kid, "What are you doing?" They'd say, "I'm filling out this worksheet." I stopped asking that question and started asking a different one: "What are you learning?" Then I trained myself to listen carefully to the answer. When I ask a child what they're learning, I'm elevating their voice and checking whether they understand the purpose of the lesson — not just pointing to the task.

The worksheet is the how, the task. But I'm listening for the skill — what is the teacher trying to get students to know, understand, and do? If students can't articulate that, it gives me coaching direction: how do we help teachers set up lessons so students understand the purpose of what they're learning, how they're learning it, why they're learning it, and how they'll know when they've got it?

So I go into classrooms with those four questions in mind. "What are you learning?" — I'm listening for skill, not task. "Why do you think you're learning that?" — I'm listening for application, whether they can connect it to something real. "How do you know you've learned it?" — I'm not looking for "I want to get an A on the test." I'm listening for multiple ways they can demonstrate understanding. Let me stop there, because I could go on.

Rena Clark 13:25 I love that. You're talking about your proximate customer being the teacher, when you're in the admin role. Let's shift to teachers working directly with students. What are some strategies a teacher could use to amplify student voice?

Dr. Betty Webb 13:48 One of the things I ask when I work with a teacher is, how do you set your lesson purpose? Purpose becomes the linchpin. The purpose of today's lesson — can kids articulate what they are expected to learn? Can they say it in their own voice?

If I walk into a classroom and I can identify the purpose of the lesson, and then I talk to a child and they can also identify it, that tells me the teacher has set it up well. If they can't, that becomes a coaching conversation: how are you opening the lesson so students understand what we're learning today, how we're going to learn it, and how we'll measure whether they got it?

Rena Clark 15:02 When you asked students what would make them happy and proud, I'm wondering — what are some strategies a teacher could use to bring more student voice in, beyond just setting the lesson purpose?

Dr. Betty Webb 15:24 I can't remember the author — I read this years ago — but the idea was to look at student work, like a student's poem or a piece of writing, and inquire into it without judgment. Ask students to articulate their thinking, get deeper into it. You can learn so much from that inquiry stance. You can identify strengths and target areas for further growth, all by working with the student directly and using their work as the starting point.

What we're trying to do is develop agency. We want kids to take ownership of their own learning. We want them to be engaged, not passive. In many classrooms I've observed, passive learning is what's happening, and we can turn that around by investing in school leadership that understands how to coach teachers toward a more collaborative, partnership-based classroom culture.

One question I used to ask teachers after an observation was, "Who was doing the heavy lifting today?" From what I observed, the teacher was doing most of it. You want to shift some of that to the students. How do you bring them into the equation so that their voice is present? Using student work as a starting point for inquiry tells you about their perspective, their background, and how to help them make connections — on and on.

Winston Benjamin 18:07 I appreciate that. But something you said earlier gave me pause as a teacher — the idea that kids don't like to see red marks on their papers. My goal as a teacher is to help students understand what they got wrong and how they can improve. How can teachers provide feedback that supports growth without landing in a way that harms students' psychological belief in themselves?

Dr. Betty Webb 19:02 I'll talk about one approach: conversation. When leaders work with teachers, we call it feedback. I call it a learning conversation. The word "feedback" implies, "I'm the expert and I'm going to tell you what I observed." If we flip that and say, "I want to learn as much from you as you learn from me," that's a conversation.

Using an inquiry stance around the work — not instead of noting errors, but alongside it — is a both/and approach. It starts with: here are the strengths I saw. Then: tell me a little more about that. Now I've invited you into a conversation. That works with kids just as it works with teachers.

"I'm looking at your paper here, Johnny. Right here, you did this, and I appreciate it. Tell me a little more about this part right here." Now I'm listening for what the child understands and can do.

Let me give you a personal example. Just about every multiple-choice test I was given at the University of Minnesota, I struggled. I flunked the Miller Analogies Test, which meant if that was the only vehicle to graduate school, I wasn't going to make it. But I could talk my way through a great deal. That's how I got into graduate school. I said, "Give me a chance. Put me on probation. Let me demonstrate that I can do it." If you give me a multiple-choice test, I might struggle. But if you give me an opportunity to express myself another way — even through writing — I can show you what I know, understand, and can do.

That's the point: multiple ways of getting at what a student knows, versus just marking answers right or wrong on a test. You can make a conversation out of it.

Winston Benjamin 22:16 Absolutely. I appreciate that, because sometimes it sounds like we're placing two things in opposition — student voice versus teacher voice. But what I'm hearing you say is both voices matter.

Dr. Betty Webb 22:36 We're partners in this. It's the same whether I'm a principal working with a teacher or a teacher working with a student. "Tell me, here's what I noticed — walk me through your decision-making there." Now I'm listening. Whether it's student work in front of me or a lesson I just observed, that inquiry stance applies. Does that make sense?

Winston Benjamin 23:23 Absolutely. So here's a second layer to that question. We've talked about amplifying student voices in the classroom. How do we do it beyond the classroom? How do we help students see themselves as part of the whole school or the community?

Dr. Betty Webb 24:00 Let me tell you how I did it — there's nothing magic about it. When I was in school, there was a student council, and the voices heard were generally the kids who got A's. When I became a principal, I made sure I had vehicles in place to hear the voices of all students about what was happening in our school.

As a principal, I set it up through workshops with teachers in the first two weeks of school. I wanted something consistent across every classroom, and my assistant principals and I were out there in every classroom, because we were trying to create a family. A family is no stronger than its weakest link. So what I tried to instill in our teachers was: these are our children. We treat them like our children. The student council is no better than the kids who aren't on it.

I can say this now, because I'm not going to get run out of town — I walked into the school with a goal of dismantling the gifted program. Why? Because everything happening in that classroom should be accessible to every kid. But I knew I couldn't just announce that. So I created an alternative. I gave three teachers a stipend to go away and plan. I said, "I want you to use what's in gifted, what's in special ed, what's in all of these programs. I'm going to give you 90 kids for 90 minutes — three teachers, a cross-section of kids — and I want you to create a program that attends to the needs of all kids without pulling anyone out."

Then I said, "I'm not going to look over your shoulder. Come back, tell me what you're doing, implement it." I empowered the teachers — unleashed the genius that was already in them — which meant they were invested in making it work.

Guess what happened? Parents of kids in the gifted program started coming in saying, "My kid is talking about the block program. I want my kid in the block program." We didn't have to sell it. The experience sold it. That's what happens when you stop muffling the genius in your teachers and let them go.

Paul Beckermann 27:47 I love that — unleashing the genius of your teachers and students. That should be on a t-shirt. So you're talking about building a classroom environment where students have voice, a school where teachers have voice, where there's collaboration and partnership. What are the long-term benefits of setting up a school like that? How do kids carry that beyond the walls of the school?

Dr. Betty Webb 28:24 They develop independence. The jargon in education right now is "agency." That's what we're trying to create — independence. Period.

Paul Beckermann 28:51 Maybe an exclamation point.

Winston Benjamin 29:01 The statement is so true in itself. That's our goal.

Rena Clark 29:11 So I'm curious — where you are today, seeing what's going on from your perspective with all this knowledge and experience, what's been on your mind lately when you think about public education in America?

Dr. Betty Webb 29:30 I think I've kind of spoken to this. In public education, we've muffled the voices of the people who have the genius — and by "we," I mean politicians. We've so politicized education that we've muffled the genius in our schools and classrooms.

Now, if I'm a principal, my job requires risk. A lot of people don't take the risks I've taken. I had to say to my boss once, "You put me over there to run the school. Let me run it." Most people don't have the intestinal fortitude to say that to their boss. But I thought, what are you going to do — fire me? Okay, I'll go back to the farm. You can't be afraid to take risks to do things that are right for the people you serve. My job was to serve the people there and unleash their potential.

Let me give you another example. In secondary education, the power rested with whoever built the master schedule. They controlled what prep you had, what classes were available, everything. One of the conflicts was that kids who wanted to take a language were often also in band or choir, and there was a scheduling conflict. A social studies teacher came to me and said, "You're probably going to fire me for saying this, but have you ever thought about making band and choir back to back?" I said, "Why don't you take the schedule and do it?" He said, "Okay." I handed him everything and gave up that power.

It was the best master schedule we'd ever had. I never did it again myself. There were a few true constraints — at the time, the person who managed the technology had to have a first-hour prep to set things up — but beyond those givens, I never touched the master schedule again. It was scary at first, but what a relief. That's unleashing the power all around us and letting it soar.

Paul Beckermann 33:00 Exclamation point. Absolutely.

Rena Clark 33:10 I'm writing that down — "Unleashing the power all around us and letting us soar." I was already picturing the image for the t-shirt.

Paul Beckermann 33:22 You're designing it. I like it.

Dr. Betty Webb 33:25 Did you notice the theme here? It's how do we grow expertise, versus just evaluating people, which is a judgment. How do we work in partnership with people to grow expertise so they can be the best they can be at what they've been charged to do? When we model that and create that type of culture in our schools, we create it for our children as well.

We disaggregated data, and the pattern was clear — our Black students weren't achieving at the same level as others. I thought, teachers are talking about this. I'm going to talk about this with the kids. I called all the Black students to the auditorium. I thought, I'm going to get fired, but I'm going to do this. I said, "Look, this is what we're dealing with. When I look at detention, everybody looks like me. We've got to do something about this." The auditorium was silent. Then hands started going up. "Maybe we can do study buddies." They came up with all kinds of ideas to help each other.

Then the white kids were upset: "You called an auditorium for the Black kids — what are you going to do for us?" I said, "I have an auditorium for the white kids." I called them in and gave them the same information. I knew I was probably going to get fired. Hands went up: "What can we do to help?"

That is culture in a school. Instead of talking about the kids, we talked with the kids.

Rena Clark 35:44 Well, you've given us so much to ponder. It's time for our next segment.

Transition Music with Rena's Children 36:01 Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. Check it out. What's in the toolkit? Check it out.

Rena Clark 36:11 This can be a physical tool or a mental tool — we're going to share what's in our toolkit. Who'd like to go first, Winston or Paul?

Paul Beckermann 36:20 I'm going to completely change mine after this conversation. I was going to talk about Adobe Podcast as a great tool to give kids a voice. But Dr. Betty, you've inspired me. It's about building a culture of us, a culture of we — not talking about others, but talking with each other, collectively. That's so powerful.

Winston Benjamin 36:53 I'm going to take something from earlier in the conversation — building in time for students to express their learning experience. Listening for what students understand, the questions you ask, the ability to have a conversation. That's resonating clearly for me. I'm still working through the idea of building "us" — the why and the how of it — but I love those examples and I'm thinking about how I can apply them.

Rena Clark 37:41 I agree with both of you, and I'm thinking about how we build that culture and create space for it. Who's doing the heavy lifting? What does your classroom look like? Is there a station rotation? How are you making space for one-on-one or small group conversations while other students are still learning? Looking at alternate settings rather than stand-and-deliver — how do you create that space?

Winston Benjamin 38:20 Dr. Webb, what tool would you like to add to the toolkit?

Dr. Betty Webb 38:24 A couple of words that resonate with me — and I heard this from a colleague, so I won't take credit for it — are relational competence. There is so much power in relationships, and relationships are not positional. I used to say to my assistant principals, "Everybody knows you're an assistant principal. You don't have to prove it."

Paul Beckermann 39:09 There's another t-shirt, Dr. Webb. You are full of wearable wisdom.

Dr. Betty Webb 39:21 That's in my toolkit. Relational competence — relationships that are horizontal, vertical, and all the way around.

Paul Beckermann 39:35 Fantastic. Let's take that nugget into our last segment.

Transition Music 39:42 It's time for that one thing, for that one thing. It's the one thing.

Paul Beckermann 39:51 It's One Thing time. Everyone gets a chance. Dr. Webb, we'll have you go last so you get the final word. Rena, Winston — what are you taking away?

Winston Benjamin 40:08 I'll jump in. Dr. Webb, thank you for sharing that story about the counselor who gave you the fire to be successful. What I'm taking away is: don't be that teacher. Not every kid can turn a negative into fuel. Not every student can burn that into motivation. Be careful with your words.

Rena Clark 40:50 I still love your quote: "Culture will eat strategy for lunch." It really relates to what Winston is saying. It's about creating that culture — classroom culture, building culture — and building relational capacity. They're all connected.

Paul Beckermann 41:11 I'm dwelling on the fact that kids and teachers can be amazing if we give them the space to be. Dr. Betty said, "Don't muffle the voices of genius in our schools." We put so many constraints on things and try to package everything in a consistent little box. We've got to let people go a little bit and let them be genius.

Dr. Betty Webb 41:47 Mine is this: there are no throwaway kids and there are no throwaway teachers. We find the genius in everybody, and we let them serve where they can best serve.

I'll close with my social studies teacher. I never went in the teachers' lounge because I told my teachers, "That's your space to talk about me, because I have my own space to talk about you." This one teacher — I knew he was always stirring things up in the lounge. I met him in the hallway once and said, "Joe, I'd like you to be on the leadership team." He almost jumped out of his shoes. "Me? Why would you want me? I don't always agree with you." I said, "That's exactly why I want you on my leadership team. I want someone with the guts to disagree with me, because I can learn from you." And I meant it, and he knew I meant it. He joined the leadership team. Everyone was surprised — Joe, on the leadership team? It enriched the entire team.

There are no throwaway teachers and no throwaway kids. Our job is to find the genius in all of them. We may find kids who need to be placed somewhere else, or teachers who would soar in a different setting, but we don't throw them away. We help them get to where they need to be so they can be successful. That's what I would leave you with.

Thank you so much for this opportunity. Your questions brought up things I hadn't thought about in a while, and it was genuinely motivating. Thank you.

Winston Benjamin 44:10 Thank you. One of my favorite things was sitting with my advisor, Geneva Gay, at the UW during my doctoral studies. My favorite thing was having her break my brain in conversation — I still wouldn't fully get it, but I was trying. Today was one of those learning experiences. I appreciate you pushing our thinking, helping us go deeper about how to support students by supporting teacher growth, by amplifying everyone's abilities, by becoming good leaders who can build cultures where all students succeed. You truly mean it — there are no throwaway anyone. Thank you for your time and your learning. I appreciate you, Dr. Betty.

Dr. Betty Webb 45:07 Thank you.

Rena Clark 45:10 Thanks for listening to Unpacking Education.

Winston Benjamin 45:13 We invite you to visit us at avidopenaccess.org, where you can discover resources to support student agency and academic tenacity to create a classroom for future-ready learners.

Paul Beckermann 45:26 We'll be back next Wednesday for a fresh episode of Unpacking Education.

Rena Clark 45:31 And remember, go forth and be awesome.

Winston Benjamin 45:34 Thank you for all you do.

Paul Beckermann 45:37 You make a difference.