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Learn more about Diversifying Group
public consciousness the moment is about hair, political news at work.
Ben:Don't try to fit me in your box
Naomi:what that will do, like burn my scalp. I just remember thinking I just don't want to do this anymore.
Ben:stereotype of African men, are not interested in feminism.
Naomi:I just remember feeling so self conscious that um, we're gonna go to work an afro, and it's in central London like, what's this gonna be like,
Ben:for example, go and get my hair done. And I've been told in predominantly white areas in northern England that we don't do Afro hair
Diversifying Group:please stop all this work agendas, political correctness gone mad. Sorry, thought police, social snowflakes Surely all lives matter. Oh, did those sound familiar? Here? Ron, you can't say anything anymore. we'll unpack the nuances of these comments, and bring sidelined lived experiences to the forefront brought to you by diversifying Group.
Naomi:Hi, everyone. Welcome to this month's episode. And this episode is a very special episode. As I always say every single episode, they can't always be special, or maybe they can. But this episode is our first ever episode recorded in the studio. And I have my two very lovely colleagues here. So just before we start, oops, my name is Naomi. I'm the host of this podcast, my pronouns are she they? And this week, we have my lovely colleagues, if you'd like to introduce yourself, please. I'll go first. Hi, everyone, my name is Desiree My pronouns are she/her And yeah, I've been at diversifying for almost seven months now. And I love it.
Ben:Hi, everybody. And thank you for the invitation is awesome to be here and not self conscious at all.
Naomi:You got this Ben!
Ben:I'm Ben. My pronouns are he and his and his he in his in his those are my pronouns. And I've been diversifying for the last 16 months, I believe, and super excited to be here with Desiree and wonderful, Naomi is brilliant at podcasts and a very interesting conversation.
Naomi:We're not paying Ben to be here. Anyways, let's get started. So this month is obviously Black History Month. And we've got a very special topic to talk about today. Which we all kind of just speak about it before now before the cameras turned on. So let's see if we can recreate that magic, right? Things but yeah, let's just talk about about her. So, you know, kind of how does her relate to like, meeting with gender, race class? And like, what are your kind of your experiences with that, and also professionalism and things? So if we just want to dive right in about that? Yeah, no, definitely. I think hair is very, very important to black girls, obviously, my girls, girls, I think is really, really important to us. Because I think for a long time, like you grow up, and I guess there was a certain type of image. And we all look like that image that is, you know, constantly in our faces. However, I think over time, like black girls have really learned to grow and grow within themselves, like love their hair. I know, for me, there was a period of my life where my mom did a texturizer. So a texturizer is basically like a chemical treatment that is permanently straightens your hair for like, a few months. And then you have to like keep going, keep doing it. And sometimes what that will do would like burn my scalp. And so I'd have like scabs. And I just remember thinking I just didn't want to do this anymore, like, so. I think I went through like a breakup, it was my first ever breakup. And I was like, You know what, I'm gonna cut my hair. And it was one of my first experiences, like, really getting in touch with myself. And I just felt so like in control. And I cut my hair and I had like an afro. And I did notice that certain men looked at me, and certain men didn't. And this was this is a conversation a lot of black women have, there's a certain type of man that likes a black woman with in her natural state. And I didn't know is that and even at that time, I used to work in central London, at Victoria's Secret. And obviously that's like a bit of like upskill plays, you know, the same type of people that come and I just remember feeling so self conscious that I'm not going to go to work an afro, and it's in central London like, what's this going to be like? And after I just think you know what, I really don't care. This this is me, you know, not the relaxer, not the texturizer not the continuously straightening my hair is this is my hair and then obviously, you start learning how to do different hairstyles. I was doing twists and braids and stuff and you I just I kind of really, really got in touch. So I think hair is is a story for every our black girl, you know, some women, some black women are still kind of in the cycle of relaxing, but I think it's an internal thing like one day, you might make the decision to straighten your hair or relaxing either way, as long as it's not coming from a place of self hate, I think it's fine. So that's kind of my, my take on what black hair means to me.
Ben:Yeah, well said, and from the perspective of someone who's of your heritage, my mom was from from Cameroon. I have always found that hair is an integral part of, of my identity. And it's interesting the experiences that I've I've had throughout my life where I've tried to, for example, go and get my hair done. And I've been told in predominantly white areas in northern England that we don't do Afro hair. And this, this was in the 90s. But the the impact that that had had on me there with, with several friends, none of them who had African heritage and really, really felt very, very excluded within the process. So the reason why I'm saying that is because hair has always been a fundamental part of my, my own identity and various parts of my life I've had, I've had an afro, which -
Naomi:You looked so cute with your baby pics!
Ben:Thank you even had an afro and well, yeah, when I was fairly old as well. Yeah, a few years back. But having that afro, I guess, part of that also helped me to come closer into touch with my my African identity. And when I, when I could go throughout the process of getting the afro comb, which my mum showed me how to use when I was a child, getting the afro comb and, and plucking it out. And that sort of transition from, from the small hair to the big hair, almost sort of I brought about a growth of confidence as well as getting me getting the afro out. Sadly, I don't have an afro anymore. But, but it's interesting, looking at the experience of men, if you're you're referring to women, I think that their hair also has a really important role to play with confidence of black men. And one thing that I'm noticing, which is slightly shifting now as more black men are growing their hair, having dreads plants, or growing up afros, whereas a few years ago, so many would have hair like mine be I've ever completely shaved off or very short. So I don't know what is driving that whether or not. It's sort of, I guess, a greater willingness to to explore African identity or a greater acceptance to, to have African identity black identities more present within, within the media within society. But But yeah, that's a very long winded way of saying, men also go go through that process as well.
Naomi:The hair journey as well, a hair journey.
Ben:It's a journey.
Naomi:It is really, really important journey, though, I think. Yeah. You know, both of you, I thought was interesting that you both kind of spoke about your parents being integral roles in like you like discovering like, what what do you think about that? I mean, I know, Ben, obviously, you're a parent now as well. And that, you know, that, I guess, would you would it be fair to say that they were kind of the ones that shows you how to have a relationship with your hair, that whatever that relationship was? That's a really, really good question. I think for a long time. I never understood why my mum, like would put a texturizer in my hair. But I think it just made the process so much easier, like Sunday evening is my hair is already straight. So she could just quickly play and then go about her business. But when she was dealing with my hair in a natural state, I could tell that it was really frustrating for her. Because it's like, it was curly. It was extremely well, my hair was really, really thick. And I've always had really long hair. So I guess my mom, she wasn't really used to that. Because all her life her has been relaxed. So she's never had to deal with her hair in its natural state. Whereas, obviously, when it came to me, she decided that yeah, you're gonna do the same thing basically, until obviously, like I said, I think I was around like, 18 where I was like, I don't want to do this anymore. And I cut my hair. Well, my mom saw me, she was like, oh, like, You look nice, you know? And so I just felt more in control. But I think obviously, your parents know what they know because that's what they know in it. Like they she couldn't have raised me natural and not know how to do it because I would have looked so like uncapped basically. But I guess they have to learn through or sometimes as well. And I've really I've shown my sister as well and my sister is natural, she's never had to relax her hair, etc. So yeah, you end up being like an influence other people get to see and you feel like well, you know, how has natural but she still knows how to like, make it nice and whatever that means to them. Do you know I mean, so yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's a really important question because as women we learn from our moms, you know, I mean, but I guess I kind of took my own route. And yeah.
Ben:As men we also learn from from our parents. So when I was a child, my mom had had an afro, as well. Looking back at the photos of her from the 70s, she had a huge afro. My mom was from Cameroon. So it was, it was it was seen as being a strong way of showing your your Cameroonian identity back then. So I basically grew grew up in an environment where an afro was not only socially acceptable, it was a cool thing to do as a way of showing your your identity. Yeah, and my sisters had had little afros as well, when they when when they were younger, so I guess sort of like seeing that as being normalised. Something that I also carried, carried with me in my interactions. At this at the same time, as you both know, we were talking before, before we started filming, I spent a lot of my life in northern England, outside of London. So being in, in Yorkshire, for example, in the in the 90s. And having an afro, be very, was a very different experience to having an afro in, in in London. So gradually, I'm hoping things change. One thing that we were also talking about earlier was the association between between whiteness and beauty. Before we started filming this, I wanted to also bring that up now. And the curious thing is that even in predominantly black countries, like in parts of parts of Africa, you will go to a supermarket. And you'll see beauty products. And the models might be black. But in terms of features, for example, hair, the hair is straightened. So you made a very good point earlier, Desiree, how this almost becomes internalised by a lot of black people. Particularly I would imagine black black women to associate straight hair with beauty.
Naomi:Absolutely. Even when my family found out that I was like, natural now, it's like something is the language that they use to describe your hair. Like, oh, like, it's going to be so hard to manage. It's going to be isn't it isn't difficult to like to do this, but how do you get your hair? How do you get your hair like that? It's like, what do you mean? Do you know what I mean? Everybody's hair is different, of course, but like, I just remember even like my aunties in Ghana, when they see my hair, by in its natural state, they'll just be like, hey, like, Isn't it difficult, and like, doesn't take up a lot of your time. As if like getting the relaxer is like, the easy is this is the easy route, you know, I mean, but you've been in your natural state suddenly, is it's like a recipe. Yeah, that's just too difficult. So like, I have if I had a daughter, I would want her to be proud of her hair. Like, do you know what I mean? Because every other race, everybody else, they wake up, they're proud of their hair. excetera. So we need to do the same for our black children as well. You know, I mean, so yeah,
Ben:yeah, really good point. And going back to, to the it's the language sometimes. It's really, really frustrating. And I think, obviously, your family played a really big part in your life, isn't it? So when they're saying stuff like, Oh, isn't gonna be, you're gonna be thinking, Oh, actually, you know, like, they're saying that so maybe I shouldn't be natural, you know, by now used to be natural. Yeah, supermarket in East Africa or wherever to across the African subcontinent. In that beauty product section next to the hair products. There's very often Yeah. So it's, it's, it's sad. And I hope this is something that that will shift as well against that association between being lighter skinned and being beautiful is something that isn't just limited to African countries from my experiences. As well, like speaking to Indian friends, you go to the beach, and and we like, Oh, are you into the enjoying the sun's like, No, I'm gonna get so dark.
Naomi:Yeah, anti blackness on the colorism. Something that just needs to constantly be addressed. I did my dissertation on colorism. Oh, yeah. And before we started filming, I was like, Oh, I've never faced discrimination. I think now looking back that when I wrote that essay, I know for a fact that it was a great dissertation. But because my lecturer didn't have a good understanding, I was marked down and And the comment that she gave me was so like, oh, but this seems a little bit far fetched. It's like, but this is my reality. Yeah. And it was. I was so blown away by it till this day. It's like it's really crushed me because I worked so hard. I did so much research on colorism, and how it affects everything from like finances, etc. And yeah, so she was denying that colorism she listened, she basically, she made it seem that I'd had just made something up or you know, again, it's like the people really educated on you know, how we struggle like in the community, etc. Everyone is kind of in their own bubble. So yeah,
Ben:yeah. I'd like to think that if you're writing a dissertation now, yeah, she would understand it. Yeah, everything has happened over the last couple years.
Naomi:But who knows, she'd probably send you like, "I posted the black square as well"
Desiree:Get out of here! hahaha
Naomi:So one of the things I wanted to ask as well, was something we talked about. So because obviously, you mentioned about current day, and obviously, just about us, because we've just now about the kind of intergenerational healing that you've done and everything and but as well, one of the things that I remember that you wanted to speak about as well, kind of, if we think back to kind of like her, like pre colonial times and things and obviously, you spoke about your current your Cameroonian heritage ban, and the kind of like, I guess, like symbols of pride and things. And I just wanted to ask you too, about kind of, like, if we kind of think about the symbolism of hair today. But also where's that come from? And like the kind of journey that has been on I don't know if you wanted to share about that as well. Yeah, no, definitely. I think with me, like, I'm very, very proud of my hair. I'm really proud of like, the styles I can do, especially learning more about black history, and why we do things like braids, like, I learned that in order to store food, the slaves with like bread, rice in their hair, etc. Like, all these things just make you think like, wow, like, this is actually why we do, you know, these hairstyles and hairstyles that we still do till today, like bantu knots. You know, that's a protective style. You know, you can do that on Monday, there's the moisturiser is still going to be in their head till Thursday, like, Do you know what I mean? It's amazing. So the history with black hair culture is very, very rich. And I just, I really hope, I think, to be able to tick tock and stuff because like the, there's so much easy access to like, black hair education. So a lot of black women are learning how to do their hair. And Lynn has been really proud of it. They're learning where the styles have come from, etc. And I guess it's making them feel a lot more comfortable, that they're not the only one who could be struggling with how to do their hair. How do I make like, what cream do I use? These are questions I get all the time. And it's like, don't be afraid to ask, do you know I mean, we're all on this journey of discovering. And yeah, I feel like just embrace the journey. And don't be afraid to ask questions. Really? Yeah.
Ben:Yeah. So true. It's interesting roller that hair has has always played, you know, whether or not it's the 1970s the association between the Afro and discos home, or civil rights movement.
Naomi:Yeah.
Ben:Radical progressiveness in the US, Angela Davis and the association, you know, very often with the with the hair, you would also have have the clothing as well how African prints and to, particularly the US and the UK to a degree and how about almost became like, symbols of, of liberation. Even you know, since time began the, the symbolism of of the patting the mother patting the daughter's hair. And as that would happen, the mother would tell stories, how stories would go from generation to generation within the process, educational stories as well. I think hair has always played a really, really important, important role. And just to make the point that within the African village context, it wouldn't just be the mother and a daughter, but but many children would, would have their hair parted by by different women. Yes, different women would would in effect help to bring up bring up the children. So yeah, historically, thin hair has always played played an essential, essential role. And I think is quite curious. Now that almost gone full circle, because now you get the accusation of appropriation or misappropriation, where you have, for example, why white women or women who are not black who are getting getting plaots?
Naomi:What's your thoughts on that? Both of you?
Ben:I don't have an issue with that as long as the origin and the influence is acknowledged. What I have an issue with is just sort of like held as being something cool.
Naomi:Yeah, like, I absolutely agree with Ben. I think there was a, there was this outrage when Kim Kardashian did like, yeah, my hairstyle she got made it up. Yeah. And everyone's just thinking you didn't know. I know. It's Kim Kardashian. I, I'm gonna find out how much of honey okay, you know, I just that I didn't like that, because then it kind of makes room for like, other people to try and duplicate these things that we've been, this is our history. Yeah, this is our life. You know, I mean, like, some people the reason why they have dreadlocks is like, for religious reasons, like, it's not some style that they just want to do. So it's like, as long as like, you know, where things are coming from. And you respect that, you know, I mean, and you acknowledge it as well, then that's very important, I think. Yeah.
Ben:And from a, from a male perspective. Just latching on to what you saying, regarding religion, if you look at Rastafarian basically taken the the parts of the dreads as being a very powerful way in order for them to, to show their identity and also be closer to, to God. So yeah, yeah, it applies to both both men.
Naomi:Is there a meaningful way that somebody could be respect because I feel like, I guess from like, what I was thinking, though, is, is, is really wearing the braids, though, to be in without the context of, for example of let's say, if there was a multiracial family, you know, we'd like the mom doing the half all the children, maybe they would do on the weekend as well. But I'm just thinking though, is there really a respectful way to do that without? Because in a sense, is, is it because they've seen it? Because they think, Oh, that's cool. Like, because they've seen Kim Kardashian do it? And is that itself not also a form of like prayer, because they're just doing it for to look cool. But when it's not really understanding the history behind it?
Ben:Hmm. Interesting. And that could apply to so many different things. Yes, I can apply to rock and roll music, literally, to rock and roll me. Yeah,
Naomi:absolutely. That too. Yeah.
Ben:You know, going way back to jobs, to do to blues, going back further back to music that was brought from West Africa to absolutely. And yet a lot of musicians don't -
Naomi:no, they don't acknowledge origins.
Ben:So I started that's a completely different different.
Naomi:I understand what you're saying. But I think as well, is the over analyse or like, Can I do this? Like, can I do that? I think if it's coming from the right place, you don't have to ask, like, can I might have to braid my hair. Because at the end of the day, it is just hair. However, we have to understand where something is coming from. Yeah, that's so yes, of course, if I saw a white girl with braids, there are some questions that I'm gonna have, you know, some of these questions. Yeah. But then at the same time, it's like, she probably really admires like, the black culture. And I guess, yeah, but I think the over analysing kind of D disconnected, that's when it looks looks a bit like, weird to me anyway. But yeah, I think the acknowledgement part is very important. Just learning where things come from. And, you know, seeing if you are allowed to do those things did I mean, because there are some pro black people that they are not with white people doing dreads, and you know, there are some pro black people who aren't for white people doing braids and stuff. And I also understand that as well. So yeah, to each their own really
Ben:Indeed, And at the same time, for example, you get white Rastafarians as well, yeah, not allowed to, to wear dreads, then how can they? Yeah, be Rastafarian
Naomi:That'd be a very complex topic. And it's sort of, I guess we'd have you know, because, for example, I guess we could get into the realms of what if it was a mixed person that was assumed, you know, that they will be participating in their culture with their family at home. And that I know, there's obviously a very specific kind of examples and things in it's, it's not usually the case of when you see a white person with dreads in public, you don't think Hey, hang on a second, maybe there? Yeah, that's true. But I think yeah, it's a very interesting topic. Yeah. So I guess I just wanted to ask as well about one of the big things that's kind of coming to sort of public consciousness at the moment is about her political bias at work. I just wanted to ask what your your you know where you both had to say about that? I've always known that this was like an issue, especially for like, for black women, because, like some black women like to wear their natural hair out. And if, if it's worn out, it looks like it's uncapped. Like it looks like you've just woken up and you haven't brushed your hair, when actually that's not true. Isn't that the language that you were speaking about earlier about the idea of unkept. Exactly, yeah. And so, especially going into like the corporate world where everyone's hair is like tied back and you just have to look really clean. And then clean garlic. And basically, it's like, I understand why so many black girls get so much anxiety over that hat. Because obviously, when you go to hair, when you look to hair, when you go to work, you want to look presentable, and approachable, etc. So if you look a certain way, it can kind of discredit you from those things. However, when I obviously graduated, and I was looking for a job, I made sure that I found somewhere that was going to accept me for me for being me, basically. So that meant that I would want to be comfortable in an environment where I could wear braids, and no one's going to look and think, oh, like what she's getting? Oh, she's business that you know. So yeah, I think the workplace it plays a really, really big part in like self confidence. And when you think about hair as well, I don't know, for you, Ben, like what that was, like,
Ben:something similar to you, I've actually chosen organisations who, where I can add my natural hair as much as possible. So. So before this, you know, working within the international development sector, working for NGOs, where it's it's more relaxed, it's you don't get maybe I'm not very observant. I don't recall getting getting funny looks or aggressive comments.
Naomi:That's why you're helping the war torn country. And, you know,
Ben:Indeed, indeed, and, you know, obviously, at our workplace, we're all free to do to do that. At the same time, you know, looking at our LinkedIn and following the experiences that a lot of black women in particular from, from what I'm reading, you know, not not everybody is, is as open minded as the organisations that I've worked for. And it seems to be a trend more recently, over the last couple of years where, I don't know if you've noticed this, but women are basically posting statements saying, this is the first day that I wore my natural hair to the office, and I felt the confidence I didn't feel as I was going to. So I was I was going to be judged. I, I hope that's the reality of that's a sign that that the workplace is becoming more accepting.
Naomi:Yeah. And I think, even before you walk into a workplace, wanting them to accept you, you have to accept yourself, you have to walk in there thinking, you know, what, I this is me. And if they can't accept that, then I'm sorry that maybe this is not the right environment. For me. I think like, it's the confidence that you have to wear, and not like, expect this validation from people, you know, I mean, I understand that, like, it's, it's a natural thing, obviously, you're gonna walk in somewhere, and you're gonna go to work and you want you do want people to respect you, and especially depending on like, I guess what type of position you play at work. But still, like, go you is the confidence, you need to have that inside of you. That's what I'm saying is the internal right, everything stopped from inside. Yeah, you shot you set the boundaries of what how you have to, you know, you are literally the author of your life. So if you're gonna say, you're gonna go to work, then you have to make it known that like, this is me, you know, I mean, this is how I like to do my hair, it doesn't affect how I work shouldn't affect how much I'm paid, etc. So yeah, I think it does start from inside on another. It's easier said than done. But it doesn't mean that it can't be done. You know, I mean, so yeah. What do you think about then workplaces where it's a potentially more diverse kind of like, I mean, I would say, our workplace is fairly diverse. Yeah, I was even gonna say, like, representation is so important, because even Cynthia, you know, our See, she was braids. Yeah. And it's like, this is nice to see. Because usually, that's not really the case. And I just love that, like, you know, people, black women in our workplace that mean, me and Denise, bye, bye. We see some fanboys that makes us feel comfortable, like, oh, that we can wear braids to you know, I mean, it just feels natural. Whereas maybe in a different environment, it probably wouldn't be the case. You'd probably have to wear a wig or something. You know, I mean, the first black CEO boss that you've had? Yes. Is the she's the first black CEO boss I've ever had, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Yeah, we're not paid to say this, no we're not don't worry!
Ben:You make a really good point regarding role models, right? Yeah. To have that.
Naomi:Yeah. Have you ever had a role model like that work? Have you had like a mixed role model for example at work?
Ben:Yeah, yeah. Not not not a mixed. But actually my my mentor is a Kenyan man. And the first organisation that I worked for after I graduated from my from iba was a women's women's rights or women's rights organisation and in International Development women's rights organisation. And he was he was amazing. He was the head of, of East African projects. He was a feminist. He was straight. So he was someone that I really, really looked up to, I can have a good chat. Yeah, so many different different issues always took the time for me. And he was a role model because he was, you know, someone, we had to, like, shed African African heritage and in that, in that sense, and he was very progressive, right. So you went against a lot of stereotypes of, of African men in this, in the sense that there's a stereotype that African men are not interested in feminism, that's, that isn't isn't true from from my experience. But even back then this was a long time ago, it was something that I really looked up to,
Naomi:I really liked that I feel like role models, especially for like us, black people are really, really important. Even in the workforce, as well like to see, I don't know, I will use st feel as an example. But to see where like she is like, it makes you feel like, wow, I can be that and I can look like that as well. And I can I can do my hair like that as well and still be in that type of position. By also kind of broadens your mind as well. Like, you've probably had a really good example from your mentor, etc. So, yeah, I feel like mentors are really, really great examples. Especially, I guess, if you want to go somewhere in life, but you feel like something could be a hinder as example your head, you know, I mean, but it just kind of really makes you feel like I can actually do anything. But I guess the work really just starts from inside. Yeah. Does.
Ben:Going back to what we were talking about earlier. I think the role of parents are very important. Yeah, absolutely. My both my parents were were were great, great role models to me, in that sense. Give me the confidence to mom, especially to wear that afro.
Naomi:Yeah, absolutely.
Ben:I love that. Yeah. Things that we have to take to the next generation.
Naomi:Definitely, I guess what you were speaking about them was kind of did this do you? Would you say that this mentor showed you a version of black masculinity that really appealed to you? And that really resonated with you? Exactly.
Ben:Yeah, you put you put you put it summed it up perfectly. Exactly. So again, you know, stereotypical form of, of black masculinity is homophobia. And it's gonna name drop, Ed waigani. My, my mentor, he was very, very progressive, very, very, not tolerant, accepting of, you know, people of different protective characteristics. So when I was sort of fresh out of university, seeing someone like that, it's like, wow, okay. This, this man is challenging so many different status quos and stereotypes. So yeah, it's, it's, it's phenomenal. And, you know, back, back then, I didn't see people like him on television or on television programmes, whatever, or in media, but to be able to sit down in an office and speak to him and yeah, we're getting off
Naomi:put no, that's, that's amazing role models. Yeah. And I think both of you are speaking to kind of the power of potentially seeing somebody that you relate to, has already been through that journey. Because I guess what we've been speaking about before, was our parents are the first kind of interaction we have with that and with our identity and how that informs our experience in the world. But then seeing other people with similar plenty similar experiences to us who have had the desired characteristic that we want to do the things that we want to be as well, you know, you talked about how Cynthia inspired you. And you were talking about how your mentor inspired you and things and how that's kind of helped you, in turn, kind of revitalise the image inside yourself. Yeah. And things. So I think that's really interesting. What would you say then about the kind of next step, because you just spoke about that as well now, but yet inspiring it? Well, because I already we're seeing all the things changing, especially, like history is being a lot more told, obviously, not anywhere near as much as you know, need to be before blah, blah, blah. But even it's even the name of the black history itself, the idea that it's so I don't know, I just know, one day we're talking about, you know, what, this whole month is just all about black history. And then November is just like, it's just November. Yeah, I don't know. Also the segregation as well, but it being black is I don't know what your thoughts are about that. To answer your first question about what does the future look like? Yeah. What do you think the future looks like? I think it's looking amazing. I'd be real. I think now, people are really kind of tapping into themselves, like black girls and black boys have had the confidence to throw their hair out, you know, even shaved their head off. Like it started to just be this thing that is just Pano because I think we've just come to a place of like acceptance. And yeah, hair is always going to be quite political in our community, but I love how even The women who are now shaving their hair, it's something that's powerful to them. It doesn't feel like they've lost anything. You know. There's this book called Sister sister, and the author's called Candis Broadway, and Broadway Broadway as they want to, like butcher her name. Basically, Candis talks about how she used to relax her hair. And she had been relaxing it for so long. She just got to a point where she was like, you know, this, this is coming off. So she said she had to go to like, so many barbers because every time she'd go into the shop, I'm like, What? No, I'm not quite in a woman's hair. Like, you know, why would I cut her hair, I wouldn't cut her hair, until she finally got to this one Barber, who ended up cutting her hair for her. And she's never gotten her hair back ever since. And she gets a shape up. And she looks amazing. And I feel like she's a great example of still being really successful. She's married, you know, it doesn't it didn't take anything away from anything. She's like, she gained, like, an extra level of feeling, you know, sexy and beautiful and feminine and her black. Yeah. So that's that story, to me is very empowering. Because it's like, this is the feature. Everybody's finding what works for them. And they're running with me. And we don't, you can't care about what a man is gonna think what another woman's gonna think, you know, I mean, it's just all about you now. And I love that. I love that story. So great. I love literature, you know? But yeah. Did anyone else have this Sister Sister soundtrack when you said the book was called Sister sister? Oh, yeah. with Tia Mowry, "Sister, Sister..."
Ben:Yeah, that was beautifully put. I think that literature has a really important role to play one for me, like thinking about the next generation? I think it's a it's about maintaining momentum as well. You know, we're at a crucial time in evolution in so many different ways when it comes to human rights, society, etc, etc. And yeah, looking at children, for example, this making books sort of represent represent representation. So that bar, so that, you know, that the child from a very early age sees themselves.
Naomi:Yeah, did you? Did you have any books? Because I never. Is there any book actually, I ever had ever had an East Asian? No, no. Did any of you have a book that represented you or made look like your family at all? No, you know, I didn't actually, I didn't. I think that's why when I got, like, started reading a lot, I really gravitated towards like African American literature. I just felt like, right, I can see myself in the character, myself. Oh, this is it just feels a lot more like home. But maybe not in school? Not so much. You know, luckily, like, it didn't affect me or anything. But only now that I'm older, I really gravitate towards like books like yeah, you know, I was gonna read all the things, but I really do like African American literature, where the main characters are like, blind. Yeah. Is there any actually that we can think of now? Whether, like main characters in children's books or children literature, or children's books? I'm not too sure.
Ben:No, but more more so these days. So I did that books when I was a child. I really but but my parents had to go completely out of their way to buy without the internet as well. Yeah, exactly what it without without the Internet. But, yeah, sort of going back to to representation. I think. It's also about challenging stereotypes, right? So it's a really cool book that I read to my daughter, which is called hair love. Right? Oh, yeah. Okay, so it's a fantastic book. So So basically, the premise is Mama's working, Daddy's at home, looking after your daughter, daughter, forgotten her name, we just call her daughter for now. And, and daughter wants daddy to do her hair. And Daddy has never done daughter's hair. But he really he wants he really wants to do and in spite of the fact that he's there, he's tired. So so he tries various different styles, does an afro, et cetera, et cetera. And they and they settled upon the the perfect hairstyle for her. And she's so proud. Mama comes home from work at the end of the day. And like Mama, look what daddy's done. Yeah, so that book is great because it's challenging so many different stereotypes, right? The Mamas as the provider Mama's working dad is taking time to look after the child at home you know, this is challenging the stereotype of of like, for example, single parent families. There's a myth that that black British families are predominantly single parents in this book is changing so many things that that has taught himself how to do is his child, his child's hair and the child is wearing is wearing natural hair. So yeah, that's that's what I love reading to do. to my daughter, and then there are so many books out there. You just have to just have to find them.
Naomi:Definitely, I think as well, there's so many more opportunities, as you said, for, like authors and things to get the community to form Tik Tok, or from I've seen on Facebook groups of people that just, you know, specific, I'm in Asia networks example. But they say, oh, yeah, I'm coming out with a book, if anyone wants to preorder it, and then you know, loads of people coming in thing, and that there's so many things out there that we can get access to now, yeah, I think like, parents are really trying to rush it. Like these days, parents are really trying to teach their children to like, I guess, keep the validation within themselves, like so reading those pages and seeing yourself in the books and the colour of the, you know, the main character skin, like imagine seeing that as a child, and then you grow up and think, Oh, this is normal, you know, because I've seen it for ages will be so crazy. So yeah, I like how parents are definitely making their children read more.
Ben:Yeah. From from a dual heritage perspective, I'd like to see more mix.
Naomi:Because obviously, you're speaking specifically to students and your mom was black, and then was your dad but my dad, my dad is white. Yeah. What was your expenses in that sense, in a sense of a lot of people I've spoken to by the experience of, you know, there's there's no as necessary. Was there any role model for you for black masculinity specifically?
Ben:Growing up, but no, no. But my dad, my dad was my role model as well. I think that's we also have to be very careful, because we automatically assume that if someone's jewelled heritage, that person is black as well. Yeah, that's the dummy phone that I use, as well. But yeah, my dad, my dad was my role model. And both my parents were, I guess, their experience was slightly different, because they met in Cameroon. My dad lived in Cameroon for a very long time. And most of his friends were Cameroonian. And we've always had a lot of a lot of, of African friends as well, like even even till now. So he's always not only had the passion and the interest in, in like, different African cultures. But he's also done a lot, you know, with with it within that. So I guess that's also a good example of ally ship. Right.
Naomi:Yeah.
Ben:So roll the role that that people who have not actually experienced the trauma Yeah. Yeah, discrimination can actually play in in helping their loved ones or, or just others.
Naomi:Yeah. I guess I guess I've asked about that is because I was wondering about your experiences with actually being read societally as black as you've dealt before your experiences, and then having potentially a different experience to your father. So that's why I was asking about the black masculinity in that sense. Yeah, no,
Ben:Indeed, indeed. And to be honest, I can I can't I can't count how many times in my life that I've sort of had this debate heated debate with people telling me that I'm black. Like, I'm actually Brown. I'm dual heritage. I'm very very proud of my African heritage. My European heritage I'm I'm I'm a brown heritage person. So don't try to fit me in your
Naomi:that's good. It's very good.
Ben:I want to ask you a question Desiree on the on hair products. You said that you stopped using the chemical things I've been Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, what do you what do you
Naomi:what do you use now ? Guys, you hair loves water. So let's start there is the best thing you can give your hair and all your all yours great as well. There's a great oil mile organics they have a rosemary oil. Anybody can use this by the way, just a suggestion. I don't really like cream in my head. This is maybe controversial, but it's only because the smells are so strong sometimes. But if I was to cream my hair, I would use the Shea Moisture. They have a butter, the shea butter or the Shea Moisture. They have like a coat caster or your moisture moisturiser for your hair. And yeah, I keep my products very, very minimal. I use the same shampoo with my organic they've got an exfoliating shampoo nice, which is really nice. And even when you shampoo your hair and lab is still really soft. Shampoo can be quite stripping. Yeah. Yeah, but with the conditioner I use LRS they have like an olive oil conditioner. My routine is extremely simple. I really care about the health of my hair. Okay, no, I don't care about the length. The length will come in. Of course it's always gonna You're always gonna grow you know, but I really really care about like the health on my hair. So water is my best friend. Good Yeah, buddy. Listen. Yeah, water is your best friend trust. Yeah, that's I have the exact now everybody else can get access to this everybody go to get my organic. Yeah,
Ben:I share some tips. Yes. Yeah. Obviously my hair is short now it was wasn't a few weeks ago no yeah,
Naomi:we saw you when your hair before. Okay,
Ben:I stopped shampooing, I stopped using shampoo, shampoo, partly because I found that shampoo really dried my hair and I'm not really good for the scalp. So for the last couple of years I be using water, but also using olive oil. I conditioned my hair with olive oil like once or twice a week regarding skin products, as you might know. As you might know, I'm obsessed with coffee. So okay, yeah, so waste your coffee granules. granules, you can make a very nice export. So mix the coffee granules either with coconut oil Oh, even if you just have soap and mix it into lava and it's beautiful. It's so good for your skin. It removes
Naomi:Do you have a mortar and pestle at home or you
Ben:know you don't need that either. You just enjoy your coffee instead of just dumping either put in the garden for the plants or yeah,
Naomi:really anyway so I think okay, cool. I think we're coming to the end of the podcast. Thank you so much Ben for sharing your coffee exfoliation. Thanks for thank you so much again for both of you for being on this episode. Did you have anything you wanted to quickly plug before we finish my podcast? Yeah should be coming out sometime in January God willing. We will be talking about life love and love the show love you for so yeah, be great. I'm not going to share the name just yet but just keep a watch.
Ben:And yeah, so my autobiography is coming out next.
Naomi:I would definitely read your autobiography.
Desiree:Yeah, thank you both. Thank you so much.
Naomi:Thank you listeners. I'm will speak to you the next episode.
Diversifying Group:Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support this podcast, please share it with others and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Keep up to date with what we do at diversifying group@diversifying.com or follow us on social media at diversifying group. See you next
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