A Quick Guide to Starting Therapy with Psychotherapist Ngozi Cadmus

Trigger Warning: This episode discusses issues with mental health, mental health stigma, sectioning, racism, colonial violence and anti-blackness. 

This week, Naomi interviews Psychotherapist Ngozi Cadmus about starting her own therapy clinic, and tips on how to get started on taking care of your mental health.  Listen and get a better understanding of the challenges that people of colour specifically face with receiving help for mental health services, and get to know tips on how to speak to your employer about mental health. 

For a transcript of the show see our hosting site: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1236089/episodes

About our guest:
Ngozi Cadmus is a qualified Psychotherapist, Social Worker and Business Strategist. She has a coaching & consultancy company that helps women of faith to become leaders in their respective industries and help them start, build and scale up their wellness business. Our consultancy focuses on assisting corporations in achieving their Equity, Diversity & Inclusion objectives through training to help identify, train, and retain Black Female Talent in their companies to create a representative leadership team that reflects their diverse workforce.

Additionally, Ngozi is the CEO & Founder of Frontline Therapist, an affordable and accessible culturally sensitive online counselling service for Black and Asian Minority Ethnic Individuals and all Individuals from disadvantaged backgrounds nationwide."

Learn more about Diversifying Group

Transcript

Naomi: 0:27

Would you say it's important to have a therapist that is like culture informed but

Ngozi: 0:31

But the reality of the situation? A lot of black people, a lot of Asian people at the hands of the mental health system are not being supported. After George Floyd by what's happening? Has there any been any improvement? Has there been any changes? Let's let's talk about that. Blind Spots, right? Human beings, we have blind spots. So what I'm saying is if you feel that things are not that bad, right? That might be the case. Maybe it genuinely is not that bad. Do you want it to get worse?

Diversifying Group: 0:59

Please stop all this woke again. It's political correctness gone mad. Sorry, thought police, you're such a snowflake. Surely all lives matter. Ah, did those sound familiar? Here on you can't say anything anymore, we'll unpack the nuances of these comments and bring sidelined lived experiences to the forefront brought to you by Diversifying Group.

Naomi: 1:25

Hi, everyone, welcome to this month's podcast on your podcast host. My name is Naomi. My pronouns are she/they I'm a little bit sick this month. So if my voice sounds a bit funny, that's probably why. But I'm very excited for this month and this specifically for this guest. If you'd like to introduce yourself, please, on you are speaking on "You can't Say Anything Anymore!" the podcast and if you'd like to just, you know, take away please.

Ngozi: 1:47

Hi, everyone. My name is Ngozi Cadmus. I'm a mental health and leadership expert, psychotherapist, a social worker, and a business strategist.

Naomi: 1:59

Fantastic um, so we just get started just a little bit interest, obviously, mental health is super, super important. I think that cannot be stressed enough, especially over the last two years.

Ngozi: 2:10

Really? Yeah, definitely

Naomi: 2:12

Could you just tell us a little bit about your journey towards what your career therapy and mental health like what originally interested you? How did you get started for our listeners?

Ngozi: 2:21

Okay, so I think it's like most therapists, depending on the how or where they are, when they will come when they start their training. Of course, usually our trauma kind of leads us into into it. But it's usually been curious, you're curious about, you know, why you are the way you are, why people are the way they are. And that was my my reason. And it was my level of curiosity. I completed my social work degree, and you know, social work is amazing, you get to really understand the world and the social, psycho, you know, biological kind of ways of being and social structures, but I really wanted to delve a little bit deeper into the unconscious mind and, you know, understand more about attachments and relationships and the whole unconscious. So that kind of led me to psychotherapy, then, of course, within psychotherapy, my own therapy, you realise, and you look back and go, Oh, okay, my own trauma, the things that I went through my mental health, probably passively was pushing me in this direction, but I wasn't consciously aware, it wasn't at all because I've had my mental health difficulties, I'm now going to be psychotherapist, some people are more conscious of that. And they make a kind of conscious decision. And some people just like, I want do the therapy, and then is within therapy, when you're going through your own personal therapy. And in your training, you begin to be aware that okay, the my childhood experiences can have has enabled me to go down this path to really want to understand obviously, why I am the way I am. So why are others the way they are? And how can I, I guess help people thrive rather than live, you know, I guess in, you know, in trauma, rather than live in their defences, and, you know, unhealthy, maladaptive processes. So yeah, that was kind of what brought me into the career therapy. And I guess a combination of everything is that I'm really passionate in helping, particularly people from the Black and Asian background, because of the stigma and the unique barriers that we face into accessing psychological therapy, and being psychologically safe in their workplaces. Because if we're not psychologically safe, if we don't, if our employees are not looking after our mental well being, we're not going to thrive, we're not going to be productive, we're not going to be able to contribute effectively, you know, in our workplaces, and you spend more time at work, more time at school, we spend more time outside of our house, really from the age of five than we do at home. So it's really important that the environments that we spend most of our time in other than the weekends and some people work on the weekends as well. They are environments that day, enable us rather than constrain us.

Naomi: 5:04

I love all of that. That's fantastic. I think especially myself and other people we've been seeing lately a lot of buzzwords, from therapy from counselling kind of pop up in the sort of general public like attachment, like avoidant, gaslighting, all of these words and especially trauma. Those have been I've been seeing those were A lot of my feed, and I've been seeing them be discussed a lot more in media, which I think is really interesting. I don't know if you have a kind of any thoughts about the kind of where it's kind of going, because I do feel like people are starting to become more open about that. And especially since you spoke about the kind of barriers that have been existing for many people of colour, I do feel like a lot of the conversations are really starting to happen, and some sort of wheels are starting to turn.

Ngozi: 5:55

Yeah. Interesting, in that I had a conversation with another podcast host about that, I guess, Insta therapy, and is that a good thing or a bad thing? And I say that, you know, it could be both. And I think the positive thing is about and I say Insta therapy just means that pop culture has essentially taken hold of words like attachment, trauma, narcissism, gaslighting, what do you call it and essentially made it very digestible anxiety and depression. So you will hear people who probably 2/3/4/5 years ago would never utilise these words within their lexicon. Now say that they're quite confident in how they kind of say, oh, that person and that is that that person has got narcissistic traits or that person da da da, Who made you a psychiatrist? Who made you a clinical psychologist? But so those negative things that in that way, because obviously people start trying to diagnose people and are really quick to kind of use labels that can be quite damaging. However, the positive thing I would say several things, but is that increase in awareness, right, when psychology terms, these are terms that have been used since 1950s/40s? Right, even yet before that, these are not these are old terms. You know, the attachment theory came from, you know, Bowlby, you know, back in the 1930s onwards. So now in the 21st century, the layperson is catching on to these terms, it means that what was in the psychological expert kind of domain is now filtering out to the laypeople and bringing awareness because people are trying to understand, why is trauma, why is *sugar honey iced tea* being passed on from generation to generation? Why would I enter a relationship and come up with more baggage enter into number one? Now, why is that occurring? So yeah, the positive thing, and also people want to explain what we call phenomena. If I'm talking to you about something I know that you're doing, and you're making me feel crazy, you're gaslighting me. And either term gaslit is a really good term to explain that phenomenon is a really good time to explain the experiences that you know, myself, as a black woman, yourself, as an Asian woman probably have experienced once or twice or many times in our working careers. When we are saying I felt that person maybe it was you know, there was a racial thing or something was going on with that. Are you sure? Really? but maybe it's - Wait, wait, wait, wait, why are you giving me my interpretation of the experience that I had with this person? You weren't even in the room? Right? Okay, you're gaslighting me. So is basically explained in terms that you see, or when you watch reality TV and you literally see a person talk badly about somebody right? You can do that the housewives and an individual No, why do you think that who's talking about you? You're thinking oh my god, like, if only they can see the cameras showed them talking about a person and that person know that we talked about but everybody denies it and makes them feel crazy into the end of the show. And they watch it back and go really? Gaslight! so they use these are terms that I guess what I'll say the lay people everyday people want to understand the experiences that they are having with people so that they can feel like wow validated or this is what he means is actually a word that actually is meaning attached to this feeling that I'm having. So I think to a degree, it can be a good thing. Obviously, there's always pros and cons to it. But I think overall in terms of your your question, I think yes, mental health awareness is slowly but surely becoming more known to the general public?

Naomi: 9:19

I love that. I think I think yeah, reality TV is definitely on the place as we've been seeing those words pop up so much more, like you said, like, especially those, you know, behind the scenes, like,"Oh, this is what they said, reality TV and things" and I think it was interesting that you highlighted the kind of pros and cons of the terminology which is obviously I'm sure very specific, very researched for many years, and then it kind of being diluted and people just using it casually maybe not with the right specific context maybe not with the exact situations but you were saying sometimes it can be very helpful, especially in situations like workplaces. You know, you get the example about often when somebody say a person of colour, or a person with disabilities, they explain experience, and then they feel that that other person is not accepting that reality. They feel kind of denied and I think it's good that there's a word to fill in for

Ngozi: 10:15

Yes that exactly.

Naomi: 10:18

um, yeah. So I guess I just wanted to kind of ask a bit about you did touch on it a little bit and things and I liked that you said about how it really started with you like questioning yourself and things and I guess I'm sure A lot of you have been through that as well, in the pandemic, and in different ways and things. But kind of, I wanted to ask a bit about, like some of the challenges for like, how mental health it differs, like people of colour, and things and how those kind of barriers kind of come into play.

Ngozi: 10:46

Yeah, I guess, you know, if we really want it to go down, particularly in this country, I'd like to be specific into the UK, but there will be very much similarities, unfortunately, in a lot of Western countries, but you know, in the 60s 70s 80s, you know, historically, the way in which mental health and I say, and I use mental health to also parallel police or any kind of institution, essentially, and, you know, black people always been in this country, we know that, but in terms of like the amount of that people that came by the Wind Rush, and then in the 80s, and 90s, a lot of Africans from West Africa came, you know, the mass kind of migration, we've come to a white country, we can say that we can compensate that England still is very much and the UK'scase, is a white country. So the institutions for them, the every single person would most likely be white, and predominately males, before you know, a woman started to come into these institutions, I think it's good to put really that reality right? There was gonna come in different be part of different spectrum that is not institutional racism is not irrespective if you don't think it is or not, we can all say that, historically, this country. Everybody was white that worked in these institutions. And therefore when people massively migrated, be it from the Windrush, they invited to come, or however they came to this country. Migration in itself is a very traumatic experience going from one culture to another. And then when you get here, you're not accepted, you're not, you know, you're not appreciated, you're not valued. You found that, particularly in a couple of groups, Caribbeans, and Caribbean men, a lot of them are not only locked up in prisons, or locked up in the mental health institutions, how that that was schizophrenic, you know, a true or untrue, the point is, there was a lot of distrust that was created very early on, when it came to suppose in the caring profession to mental health is meant to be a place where you get treatment, you get support, but the way in which people are being treated, is not being supportive. And when people are not necessarily, you know, going in and and coming out to be, you know, effective members of society, right. So, let's say about 40 years on 50s, or 60s, it's still the same really, you know, we still have a situation where the mental health system for a lot of black people, a lot of Asian people have mixed heritage people essentially feel that the distrustful of this mental health system, is it really there to support me am I just gonna get a label, and then be labelled get medication, and that's it and be put back right into the, into society. Now, that's just what I'm talking about that I haven't talked about the other factors that contribute, you know, the socio economic factors that contribute the racial factors that contribute, you know, the trauma that contributes into why people of colour, maybe develop certain diagnosis, at a supposedly a higher rate and you know, other other races, right, but I'm just talking about if we really want to be objective, because some people want to argue points, we can objectively see at a particular point in time, black people specifically were not treated well in these institutions. So when a community is not treated well by the police, so by law enforcement, by mental health support and mental health, by social services, by every institutions opposing by school, right, followed by school, then society as well, you know, pubs, yeah, just just society as well. And everyone part of society can think of, was hostile to black people was hostile to african people is was hostile, and still is, you know, to people with disabilities, it's not going to be that of a surprise, that people are still quite distrustful of mental health services, right? And the fact that the labels were so quick to be attached, oh, you've got schizophrenia, you've got this, you've got that. And some of these labels, were so damaging to a person's aspirations. You know, back in the day, maybe even still now to a degree is still hard. You'd be labelled schizophrenia, bipolar, even depression, anxiety at a time could literally potentially ruin your chances, you know, have a successful career you know a successful. what do you call it Life? Good quality of life, you know, you get pumped with medication and medication in of itself, particularly the older generation of antipsychotics had so much side effects, again, that in itself might be dealing with your mental staff, but then you're physically having certain side effects. So there's so much in the mental health system that I think we need to really acknowledge. Now you have a situation that 40-60, 80-20 years on, things have not really changed it in the terms of the statistics. There was a paper so 20 years ago, that said, black people are four times more likely to be sectioned in the hospital be detained in hospital- it's still, black people are four times more likely, you know, to be at the hospital. So the question is what has changed what has occurred? A lot of black people have come into the mental health system that myself, I actually do section people. And in certain boroughs I section a lot of people look like me, am I then part of the system enabling it or my part of the system challenging it? You know, you've got to ask yourself those questions when you are, quote, unquote, part of the system. So the distrust of service is one thing. So if you distrust services, when you are struggling, you're not going to go to that. Let me give you a poignant example, when I was at the height of my depression, I've never gone to my GP for anything other than physical health stuff, mainly because if I use my isolate incident, my GP was horrible. His father was so sweet. But once the son took over, he was very cruel. The last time I saw him, he literally said to me, Oh, I remember you used to get bullied, but he did it in a very sarcastic way. You because I was I couldn't speak easily, we get really anxious coming to him, because we're just really rude. And I think about my mom. And then he was like, why he was your mom here? Don't speak for her. Let her speak. Oh, yeah, you she didn't he just started to write off my history, like, show insensitivity. This is the very reason why I would never have gone to him when I was in a height depression, because I don't trust him. And even certain things that I've needed, I've had a fight for the things that I needed, you know, when I went to, because for sickle cell, I had to fight to be tested, because he was like, Oh, do you really need it? I'm like, Yes, I really needed this test, I need to find out what my thing is. So that's an isolated incident. I can't even - was who was a Pakistani, or maybe Pakistani, maybe Indian doctor. But now apparently, there's any ratio couldn't be I don't know. But what I'm saying is that that's an isolated incident, just I just didn't like his personality, let alone a system that is very hostile to people that look like myself. Right. So that says that small incident. So you've got distrust of services, then you've also got stigma within the communities themselves. So there's things within our community that now happened in Asian community, in the black community, about mental health and illnesses. It's not understood. It's embarrassing, it's shaming. It's, it's, it's demonic. People don't understand it. So it when you're going through it,*sshhhhhh, *sshhhush hide it away, either way, you know, let's let's not tell anybody that our son is struggling. So nobody ever sees "Oh, how was your son?" "Oh, he's got after he's gone off to America to study." He's right downstairs, you know, but nobody wants to show him because we're embarrassed that we've got somebody who isn't, you know, quote, unquote, whatever success is in the in that defend that family's not doing well, he's hearing voices is delusional, he's this this and that you've got contributing factors? You know, like, of course, you've got stigma, stigma within the family, you've got distrust. And you've got the fact that when you go in when you ask for help, the system is so over, clumped. The system is so overloaded, that you don't get the help that you asked for. I literally several, several instances can tell you of particularly black men or black men who supposedly historically do not engage in a day that hard to reach group in the in the, in the mental health system, are reaching out and are told you're not, you're basically not unwell enough. You're not unwell enough. And the reason why they've been told that, that sounds quite harsh, and you think, Oh, my God, being a practitioner in that I understand is we're saying that we don't have the capacity. So you have to be extremely unwell, you have to be basically running around naked, for me to help you. Because if we help everybody who was just unwell, then you got to think about the person you want 30 people on my case, it's 30 individuals, 30 families, that in itself is too much for one person to handle. So I couldn't take 100 I couldn't work with 100 people, let alone 30, which I was working with 30 plus people. So the system is clumped up there. So when you want help, you can't get help. So what happens, we only get at the point of crisis, because one, we don't ask for help. When we're just really feeling bad, it's got to go really bad. And usually, we don't even ask for help. It's so obvious to everybody, because I'm walking around naked, or somebody hears me screaming in the house, I'm calling the police. And we come to help at the point of crisis, or we come to help when maybe we get involved in criminal activities. And then, you know, realise that someone's got mentally unwell. So I'm trying to give story to just anecdotally show. This is the system that we have, again, it's not all bad. There are amazing things that the system does. But the reality of the situation, a lot of black people, a lot of Asian people at the hands of the mental health system are not being supported because of certain differences, and also many more factors.

Naomi: 20:07

Do you think there's also a case of many black Asian and people from different backgrounds, they feel the pressure that if they say, "Oh, I'm not doing so well or I'm really anxious about this." that then there'll be perceived as like the angry black woman or the Angry Asian or the I don't know is that is that also have a role to play in it as well as being kind of feeling the weight of having to represent your own kind of community. And then like not wanting to be that one that's like pulling everyone else down, even though that's not how it works, but just feeling the pressure of that.

Ngozi: 20:40

So now it is the flip reverse, I think because of the fact that as asian people, black people within our culture, we're taught to be strong and to keep on going and to keep on moving. Admitting that we need help is a sign of weakness. And the reality of the situation, a lot of us are carers, you know, you know, I don't, and it was different in certain Asian backgrounds, and even an African background, but typically some of the bread that were our parents pensions, right, our parents have come to this country, they've gotten to a certain level, and they want us to surpass that, but they haven't been able to give us an inheritance. So we have to essentially ensure that they are looked after, and we have our future families looked after. So if you now say that you're depressed, you're, you're having a breakdown, who's gonna look after everybody? If you go, who's looking at everybody? Even if you go for two, three weeks, you're thinking, you're gonna have my mom, you're gonna come to my father's house, my siblings, you're gonna look after my family. There is actually the reverse is also would you be seen? Would it be? Would you be neglected? Would you be would you be because they tell you that one in five black women die of, you know, childbirth. And there's a lot of research into that. But one of the key things that we're seeing the lady queue, the global queue in Hackney, is what young black kids are adultified quite early on. So similarly, when I've had to express that I'm struggling, I don't feel like people take me seriously, because I have to cry, I have to physically show you know, *I'm dying ahhhhhh* for you to take me seriously, but if someone else maybe a white person said I'm struggling, that, "Oh, you're really struggling" it's like, do I have to I don't know, what do I have to do to show you that when I'm saying I'm struggling? Because I'll just say I'm struggling, but maybe the person there doesn't interpret all of the cues in my face, or body language. They're saying they need to see more from me than they would from a white person or non black person to interpret the same kind of level of "this is serious". Do you understand what I mean? So it's not necessarily because we're the strong black woman, that if we say, what do you call it? It does the reverse is the reverse is because we are perceived as the strong black woman, right? We need to say to people, when we finally get the courage to tell people, I'm actually also vulnerable. I'm actually also need help, is I've got to empty up the ante for you to see me or is only when it gets really, really bad. I'm taking seriously, you know, and that's one of the reasons is coming out with childbirth. It's like, the Black mother, can we say that I'm struggling and say, Oh, you can do it, you can do it. What do you mean, I'm telling you, I'm struggling? What more do you want me to show you that I feel the need to do or I need help! And he's like, What, until they're just at the vital start showing and all the things I've been ego, I've been telling you this for the last like 10 hours of my of my labour? That's the situation that we kind of get in as it happens also within the community as well. You know, it happened within and I can imagine happened within the Asian community as well that it can take a lot for people to believe you within your own community, I need help. Because you're always a strong person. That's why you say, second, you're strong friends. But that that kind of phenomenon is something that I think as Black and Asian people we experience as a group of people, right? Because people are not aware of you've got to think about it, and maybe our facial expressions, maybe they see us as quite harsh, right? So he's bluffing. For them, it was quite hard to finish. The question is quite harsh. So am I saying to you that we're really in pain, maybe they need to see tears coming out of my eye to believe that. But I mean, I didn't I mean, not cry, I just told them in pain, that should be enough for you to believe me. It's not like that isn't enough. Whereas in another case, it might be enough for maybe a white woman to say I'm in pain and people kind of respond, you know, so yeah, that's what I thought the question was actually quite reversed. There could be I'm not denying that that question might be for some people as well.

Naomi: 24:37

No, I like the points that you brought up, I thought it was very interesting. And I think that you spoke a lot about the kind of, I guess, hyper masculination of specifically black women and how they, their vulnerability has been removed, which is has been a really important topic that a lot of people are speaking about lately, which is, which is great. I think you spoke about how that kind of plays here, with getting access to mental health. And you were saying that all of the times people are speaking and they're saying I'm struggling. And it feels as if that's not enough, and that you need more proof. You know, this is the same for many different cultures as well. Sometimes in many cultures. It's not, it's not considered polite to be showing expressions on your face to be showing, you know, over emotions over crying, you're supposed to say it in a calm way, in a calm manner. and express yourself like quite succinctly, and that that does contrast with kind of what we think of in the West as being like, if you're really upset, you should be crying, if you're if you're if you're grieving, you should be crying, and you should be, you know, quite chaotic. And if you're really happy, you should be smiling and jumping up or down and things and I sort of ever did, if you've got any points about that.

Ngozi: 25:49

Yeah. So what's Interested in the flipping that another flip reversal? I particularly like when West African culture can't talk for Africa, different regions are very different, particularly in Nigerian culture, right? We can be very expressive. So some of the things that you define is that if, you know, if I'm in front of a, maybe someone at my mother's age, from Nigeria, and I'm, you know, in a Mental Health Act assessment, so we're considering whether we should, you know, admit them into a psychiatric ward against their will or not. They can be highly expressive, right? And that's normal to me. So, but then maybe the other professionals who are white, who are Asian might be wondering, that might think, oh, that person is what we call live out, you know, that, that this basically means very, like, up and down in the motion? It's like, no, no, that's nothing to do with their mental health. That's a cultural thing that has been very expressive, right. And that's the that's another kind of interpretation of, you know, a young black boy, for example, might be moving his fingers, stereotypically, right? Not all that not every black young black boy does that, but stereotypically maybe come from particular area. So he's talking in a certain way, right? And then somebody might say, he's waving his hands quite aggressively. He's like, No, he's just waving his hand, because that's how he talks, you know, I mean, or sometimes I've have had a lot of young black boys who are actually inexpressive, because, you know, they've got to be guarded, they've got shook their hand. So you get very guarded. While we are, they aren't guarded, but they're not guarded because of their mental health, they're guarded, because they trust us is actually a normal reaction, we've brought it into their house with penalties, they're not going to tell us what we wants to hear, because they don't trust us, there's not to do with they are guarded, you know that it's not in as a result of their mental health disorders as a result of they don't trust the authorities in front of them. So irrespective of their mental health needs, at that moment, they're guarded. So these are some of the things as mental health professionals, you know, you encounter. And it's, it's funny, because again, it's not necessarily just a white thing, it's within the institution, because a lot of the doctors that I work with actually are Asian. So it's also within Asian and Black cultures, that misunderstandings that are there, I find quite interesting, because even though we are both minorities, we know that they're prejudiced against each other. So when we are, maybe it's an Asian person I'm assessing. And I'm a black person, or the other way round, how we interpret each other is also quite interesting, because we come from different norms and different values. As well, there, there can be quite a lot of similarities. But yeah, I wanted to just add that, that in certain African cultures expression is quite natural. And then, but in the Western world, it might go for them and might be a bit too much. So they start going, oh, this person is really overly emotional is that well, no, actually, that's quite a normal reaction. And I've been overly emotional, they're being normal. You know, when something good happens when I'm gonna mom jumps up and down, and she dances, you know, it might just be like, a happy. That's a normal reaction, but maybe to another person might be like, Oh, that's a bit much. So yeah, there's I just thought I was quite interested in your point.

Naomi: 28:44

I love that. I mean, thank you so much for describing your experience to our listeners. I mean, I think that's so cute. It sounds really nice. Yeah, I think you touched on a really important point as well between Black and Asian communities, just the sort of, although, like you said, you know, they're both minorities within the UK. They just face such different stereotypes and such different they have come from very different cultural sort of ideologies and things. And there can be sometimes a clash and difficulty in understanding each other and interpret, like you said, interpreting each other. And I think that you touched on a really interesting point about the whole thing you were saying that, for example, you gave the example of Nigerian culture, people can be seen as quite vivacious lively, which is what I would use. But I guess, as you explained, sometimes people will see that as like, overly emotional, and sort of over the top and a bit too much and things and I think that's a very interesting point, I guess that's would you say, then it's kind of important that because you were speaking about different kinds of experiences there to have a therapist that is informed about all these different modes, because you're saying all the therapists you work with are Asian as well. And sort of, yeah, well, would you say it's important to have a therapist that is like culture informed about these different cultural sort of nuances and ways of communicating?

Ngozi: 30:00

You know, I'm going to be quite controversial because without really deep your question, I will say no, and yes, because I'm a black therapist, but I, I am a very, I'm also I call myself a philosopher, and an anthropologist. I like to understand cultures when I meet people, I sometimes do but most people don't take it offensively. They can tell. I asked the most stupidest question, but I want to understand your culture, your specific culture, how you see it, because how you see might be different to how another Chinese person or Singaporean person or Laos person you and I know that allows people that? Yes, I know about different countries in Asia, not just the ones that we all kind of know, right? There's similarities and differences. And I've watched a lot of Asian you know, I'm using asian as a thing, but I watch a lot of different kinds of countries from Asia. Content that I really liked to understand and even that podcast that talks about Asia dynamics and you know, the old problems, I'm interested to hear the similarities, but also the differences. So I personally think it's impossible me as a black person to know, until it's me as a Nigerian ambitious person to know, maybe how a Kenyan, you know, because Kenyans East Africans, cause East Africans are quite different to west Africans, you know, and we talked about when we talk about the differences, right, same as South Africa and and as the North Africans in terms of the Arabic and then Central Africa. So no, I'm not going to know all of those nuances. Normally, in that order, the Caribbean differences. No, I'm not going to know all of the South American or African American or the Aborigines in Asia and Australia. But but but then the dough there are definitely similarities as a black person who might feel more comfortable with a black person in general, right, and the same as an Asian person. I think it's about the willingness to understand and to educate yourself, and not just rely on the person in front of you, the client educate you, but also, if the client is willing to educate now sometimes don't want to that, for example, my therapist is white, so I wanted a black therapist, I was a long story, I end up ended up with my therapist who I absolutely love. But I actually did enjoy teaching her my culture, because it helped me analyse my culture. So when she asked me questions, I would then think about it, because I'm thinking about not only culturally, but my family, because my family is also different culturally, because I grew up in a single parent household, it's Igbo. And then how it is now but back in the day as an Igbo woman, that was very odd. When I meet a lot of Igbo children like myself, they just assumed my father must be around when I tell them, they're shocked. Because it's whether the, wherever the mother and father are getting on, the father is in the home. So to not have a father, I don't have a Igbo father, and home actually is quite shocking for a lot of people. So my experience is a Nigerian Igbo child, which is completley different, for me, I only grew up with my mom, I didn't grow up with my father, I didn't grow up back home. So I enjoyed breaking things down from my purview. I enjoyed breaking things down for my faith to her so she could understand it. However, some people don't want that some people want you to understand certain nuances. And I get that because sometimes in the midst of your trauma, in the midst of distress, I ain't got time to break down. You know why, you know, my mother tells me to, to get the belt, and you do that. I mean, I don't want you to go, oh, you know, social services abuse is that oh, that's what happens and you know, certain household, you're the parent will make the child get the weapon of choice to beat them, right? is a thing that we understand whether rightly or wrongly, you know, when you sit on that, but we can understand that rather than the person face make you go, Oh, my God, let me break it down. She didn't do it. Look, she didn't over beat me all of this different stuff. So I think it's really about being culturally informed culturally relative, you know, if we just said, Oh, just be informed about Black culture, they've been informed about white culture, Asian culture, what does that mean? There's so many countries within that continent, right? So I just don't think anyone can be that informed. But I think a person can say, Okay, if I've got a Chinese person, what language do you speak Cantonese or Mandarin? Or what parts honey, are you from? Are you from Hong Kong or you mainland, okay? Then do a bit of research and ask questions and say, Look, I just want to make sure that understand, you know, are you are you buddy? So you Christian, are you never like, what what is that? So I get a sense, I say, look, I will make mistakes, I will ask clumsy questions. And please, just, you know, let me know. But I also will educate myself as well. If it is not just for you to educate me, it's for me to get an understanding. So I will say it's about being willing and doing it maybe, overall, just get a sense of the different differences. Asians, Africans are that you can't go to every single country that how many countries in the world, but when you get a specific client in front of you educate yourself as much as possible, but an ask them because what you've learned might be different in their household, and not to stereotype and to generalise, you know, so I think that's important, but I think it's just important to kind of just push back and say, it's, I don't know, I personally think that the therapist, I'm assuming that a non black or Asian therapist is got like a, a, what's it called the anthropology of every kind of country in the world, and it's trying to understand all the values, I can just not possible, however, you have a general sense of certain differences, you know, certain religious differences as well. But even if you know it, even if you know that, right, for example, I know, I had a friend who mentioned that she's Muslim, sure to check up, and it was important for her to, you know, having a Muslim therapist because, you know, she's been to a non Muslim therapist doesn't even always have to be white Fairbridge, but a non Muslim therapist, different message, just take off your take off hijab, and oh, boy, is more complicated than that, you know, a Muslim therapist wouldn't say that would understand the importance that you attach to that, you know, to your hijab, but also trying to help you, you know, how do you express yourself authentically within you know, religion that you might find is whatever, whatever, whatever. So yes, having a person that culturally, or racially resembles you is important for many things. It's like, I've got a we got my reference for your listeners. For those that watch, I'm wearing a wig, right? But a lot of times I'm in my sessions, I've got my bonnet on, right. And I know that we're there with my bonnet. And I'm working with a lot of black clients. They love it because it's like, oh my god, like you're being you like I did my hair. I ain't got my hair done. I can just, you know, put my bonnet on and not feel I'm looking unprofessional or not feel I'm looking not done. I don't think so I'm in there. Barney is not dressed up is just doing our hair can take effort and time. So why would I want to do all of that? If I'm going to do that? So somebody else from a different culture might be though?

Naomi: 36:40

How's that any different from somewhere in a head wrap? You know, exactly. Like a non black person wearing a headband or wearing a scarf or on their head? Or how's that? Different?

Ngozi: 36:48

Exactly. That might? Yeah, so a non black person wearing a headdress might be that's their that's their, that's their outfit going out for the day, right? They go out? And is that no, this is me. I didn't go out. But I'm dressed up. And somebody might interpret has happened to me, like I've worn my bonnet. And that, oh, you're not being ready, you're not ready than that. I am ready. I'm just, I just in my head. I don't need to do my hair because I'm not going physically out. But I'm, I've been asked, I've showered and I've had m breakfast. I'm ready for the day, there was a black person wouldn't ask me that question. Because you don't understand what that means. innocently. And that's black person, usually from from any country that's black, there are certain things that irrespective of what country you're from, we get just because it's like a thing that we just get, like a symbol that we kind of understand. So every long winded way and just to show your audience are so many different nuances, and I just don't want your audience to just be like because that for example, you know, I'm a white therapists and yes, I did want a black therapist. And when I went to meet my that therapist that I wanted, like, she was like, the epitome of what I thought the therapist needs to be. She was everything that I want you to be. I think of her, the president of amazing click, I felt that she was cold. And she isn't that was my experience because other people that work with and love her. But I found her cold and she made me take off my shoes. I thought that was just a typical kind of therapy kind of thing. Take off your shoes sit down and we just sat there. And I felt so uncomfortable and being my first time in therapy, I honestly just kind of I felt like it was a bit harsh. And then when I met my therapist and my current one she was leaning back, I didn't take off my shoes, she was like I was middle you're black, let's talk about it a secret and she fit my personality. She was she's you know, she had a come at me hard, I come at her heart as well sometimes. And I liked that I didn't leave feeling bad. I just left feeling confused because I want that one. And I chose her chose my gut. I said, You know what? I know what I want. I know a coach, he wants someone to resemble Me. But the person that I thought did, I just felt missed by her. But the person that doesn't resemble me literally class wise and race wise and age wise that way older than me and my grandma's age. I felt seen by her. And I'd be you know, eight, nine year done.

Naomi: 39:04

I mean, that's fantastic. I love that. I think you brought up such interesting points about the no person can be the one stop encyclopaedia for every culture, every nuance. I mean, that's just Yeah,

Ngozi: 39:16

I love how you summarise, audience members. She is a brilliant summarise. I went like a whole five minute thing is, she did it in one sentence. No one person can be an encyclopaedia. For starters, basically what I'm trying to say.

Naomi: 39:30

Thank you very much. I hope you enjoy that listeners. And I love that you bought the specifics as well, because you're absolutely right. You know, your your experiences, what you spoke about being a Nigerian Igbo woman specifically from like a single parent household is going to be so different from say other Nigerian women who say from a you Yoruba background, you know, it's totally

Ngozi: 39:49

You know about Yoruba, okay!

Naomi: 39:50

There are many different religions within Nigeria, like a lot of people Muslim and Christian, they're so different, and the very different experiences and then, you know, for example, for myself, like I'm trying to use, but I'm like from the mainland. So that's quite different from a lot of people in the UK from Hong Kong. And then like, my specific Chinese ethnicity is like Han Chinese, which is different from like, you know, teochew or like hui or things like that. So, all of those other things. So I think that you touched on a really interesting point about, it's very specific, we all have our own individual cultures, and like individual family cultures, which you kind of touched on about, specifically your family. I really liked that and that it's a rounding up by saying that your therapist, it was actually somebody that resembled you and you went in and you were looking for, okay, I'm gonna have this therapist are going to be like me, blah, blah, blah. And then actually, you didn't end up clicking. And you know, it's a sense that and you said that this verb has made you uncomfortable, because she was like I'm working middle class and You know, blah, blah, blah and things, let's talk and things and but it's about, I guess, mutual respect, willingness to learn. And then, you know, I guess, for example, a personal anecdote. I've only ever had one Asian therapist in my life, all my other therapists have been white, and things. And there's been varying degrees of different experiences that I've had, for example, but I kind of, I guess I kind of resonate with what you said on a personal note as well, because I don't necessarily believe that it needs to be or does it, I think that's absolutely fine. If people do want to have some, as you gave the example, was a your friend who wants a Muslim therapist and things like that. And you say, and I think you gave examples well about the bullet, which is really important as well, because it's, it's there are, of course, individual kind of like, symbols iconography of different groups that just, like you said, are universal experiences and things. And it's absolutely fine if people want to have a therapist that shares that or things like that. But I think what you picked up on was the idea about willingness to learn, which I thought was really, really interesting.

Ngozi: 41:47

And just sorry, just kind of flip it. I love how you talked about, like, I think it was probably the first time I'm hearing about Han and that there's like? What ? I didn't know about this!!

Naomi: 41:56

Yeh, so like in Nigeria, there's different ethnicities in China as well. There's like, there's like, there's so many, and there's like different like, and even in Taiwan, there's like native Taiwanese people who are actually more closely related to Southeast Asians than Chinese people. So yeah, they will have different languages, and different, like, some of them have different writing systems. So I'm actually Han Chinese. But I'm also like, technically I'm like Shanghainese as well, it's a very long story. But, um, things. So there's different, like, regions and things like that. And yeah, I think that's, it's interesting. Also, like, there's, you know, I mean, I think what we spoke about as well, just like different family cultures, I mean, it's not like, Okay, you can't blanket like, every Nigerian family is going to be sitting down eating indomie and eating Jollof rice you I mean, that's just not how it is. I mean, that's just -

Ngozi: 42:44

She knows about! She knows! our best kept secret

Naomi: 42:49

Indomie!

Ngozi: 42:51

Malt. Even though some Nigerians don't like malt. Are you really Nigerian, though? That is the question.

Naomi: 42:59

I mean, I love it. And thanks. But I think that, you know, you touched on such interesting points about that, and just about this, and also about the fact that, you know, we do have our limitations, and, you know, people, some people might come to you, because they think, actually, I would really like, you know, a black therapist, maybe a Nigerian therapist specifically, you know, and things like that, or, but there's also limitations. You know, we are all human. We can't like know, every single nuance, but every single community ever. Yeah. It's just not possible. Exactly. And things. But I love the fact that you were saying it's about willingness to learn.

Ngozi: 43:31

Yeah, yeah, I think I think that I think that's what's important. And I think that's important in anything in the whole anti racism, especially at work, for example, because I do a lot of diversity and inclusion work, particularly using data to inform businesses where their gaps are and how we can support them in terms of the mental well being of their Black and Asian and mixed heritage staff. And also included in the representation is willingness to learn, right is willingness, like, I can't fault, your willingness, now, your execution, we can talk about that, but but your knees are willing, you know, be willing employees are willing to be diverse and inclusive, and make it make it sacred, psychologically safe, people want to belong, and obviously build equity. But the issue is the execution. And obviously, there's some employers that are not willing at all. But willingness alone is not going to sort out the issues. You know, you've got to execute, you know, you've got to collaborate, and you've got to implement data and find out what's going on you did a diversity inclusive initiative. Two years ago, after George Floyd back was happening. Has there any been any improvement? Has there been any changes? Let's talk about that. So but yeah, I think willingness is really important in a therapy room with this is really important, you know, with the leaders, showing their employees that we are willing to listen to what you have been saying, and to actually begin to implement, put our resources into how we can execute some of the ideas and questions and thoughts that has been, you know, put to us.

Naomi: 45:07

Yeah, absolutely. I think I guess what my kind of question would be kind of next would be about it. We spoke a lot about the workplace as well as how can people get started on like, taking care of their mental health, like at work or at home? You know, what, what kind of advice would you give to our listeners who want to get started on that?

Ngozi: 45:23

So I think first is about you know, if you are let's imagine you just applied for a job, really, I know we all do, but definitely read the contract. Read what is provided you you know, in terms of your learning development, your Hey, check it out that day HR, and then development l&d are usually the people that are your well being they usually are the people that will have something. So that's what you should do for you when you start a job. Now if you're in a job, go back to that. And then if you've got your, you know, Sunday, you've got your local intranet, you know, if you work in a thing really scour and look what basically, are your employee benefits? Do you have any employee benefits? You know, do you have an employment assistant programme, which is usually the area that's in charge with your wellbeing, right, and if you do, and if you are a person of colour, you know, how likely is that EAP service is going to provide a potential therapist of colour, you know, potential coach of colour, you know, a potential mentor of colour. So it's finding out what is currently there in existence. And really, if you can push on making sure that there is something there, but as you're doing that, you got to focus on your own mental well being probably do focus on yourself first, and then go back and go, Wait a minute, what's going on, you ain't got anything there, I want to champion this because you've got to focus on yourself first. So there isn't anything at work, then you've got to seek out right, you've got to go outside of work. And essentially, seek out your own mental well being, of course, my service, frontline therapist is out there, there's Barton be a ti n, and a number of services out there if you want in wanting a black, Asian, or a person of colour. So therapist and then there are other generic services. If you just want to help whatever, then there are debt, right? Just like counselling services, usually you will find something in your local area. But I would definitely say if there isn't speak to your HR, you know, go straight to HR and start having conversations with even if you're if you're able to start become some of your colleagues and say, Look, can we do a Can I do a letter, and Sandra all of us to say, look, we feel that we need employee benefits, you know, we need an insurance to help us pay for therapy, that a lot of you know, employees help to do your teeth, they help for you, if you want glasses, if you have somebody of your back, when you got physical health issues, you know, you'll get some adaptations, right. If you've got dyslexia, they will start putting things within your your computer to help you. Mental health is part of in ensuring employee wellbeing, ensuring that you can effectively do your work better is part of equity. If my mental health issues are not taken into consideration, then I'm not able to be as effective because there's an area of need that's not being met, once the area of need has been met, I can work just as good as everybody else, right. However, there is also a part of identity, disclosing that you don't have to the law says you do not have to disclose your mental health needs. But if you also don't, you can't expect maybe dentist support and help as well. So there is that kind of collaboration and trust. But if you don't trust your organisation, I would encourage you to find an organisation where they are quite transparent in how they support you. Because I think it's important to also see for best, I'm not going to now say I'm going to just trust that my employee will look after mental health when they don't talk nothing about it, they do nothing on it. See, that is important to you. And I'm probably going to then feel more comfortable in sharing an interview or saying hi, speak to your manager, I just thought I should share your hearing got go to details, you don't got to talk about your whole mental health history, you can just have time they get really, really anxious. And I can't even get into watch why I'm late sometimes. So if I don't, if you don't mind, I would love to do hybrid working because some days will I'm really really anxious, I will do the work, but I get late and you're looking at me and I'm not trying to be late, I just get so anxious that I missed a train, all of these things happened. And when I get in, and I feel like you're frustrated with me, it really affects me being productive class or really bad. But if I can use those times, I know I'm going to be able to message you there'll be at home, if there's no meetings, and I don't have to be there physically, I can be at home, I will do the work. It's just I can't come in physically, because all of these things, you know, a good employee, a good manager will go Yeah, because if they want the work done, what is the best environment that we can get the work done, if it is to be at home, because that day, you're really anxious and you're set up a chain of events, that will mean that when you get into work, you're not effective enough. They at home be effective. We all went and got to see. So is that sometimes it seems like common sense, right? But as they say, since in common nowadays, and even in some of these workplaces, so I would really encourage workplaces to really invest it COVID the pandemic Black Lives Matter life what's going on has shown us that we've got to look after our our nuggets, as they call it right they will look after a nugget we won't be able to look after any every other part of our life buddy and your employees are the life force of your organisation. So and we know absenteeism, mental health needs cost billions of billions to the economy. So if you want to reduce that billions and if you think about your own company, how much is it costing you that people are taking off sick days or people are not coming into work or people are coming in too late because the number of things but if you put a lot of things in place to ensure to reduce that to support them, then you're gonna have a more effective productive and you're going to retain more employees but directly to the employer. If your company is not providing that for you. You got to seek that out and once you flirt you're able to then I will start looking for I'm about to go. Because if your employer is not prioritising your mental well being, you don't need to be there.

Naomi: 50:57

I mean, there you I think I really wish I could have just written down exactly what you said about how to speak to your boss and things. Because I think so many people just don't even think about that as an option. They don't even think they can ask for those things. And I, you know, I loved how you put it, and you gave the arguments for this and explain how to be productive. And then you explained about what things to look for in a workplace, you know, are they speaking about mental health? Do they care about things like Black Lives Matter? All of these things? I mean, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, listeners, you know, probably knowing down exactly that exact scripts to, you know, say to the, to the bosses and things because I think, many people just don't know where to get started on that. And they don't know what to look for. They don't know what the potential flags, you know, things and you highlight a lot of these different pointers of things that people can look for. I guess my question would be about, what would you say that to people who kind of don't think that it's bad enough, quote, unquote, I'm doing air quotes. So you know, if anyone's watching the video bit of this, that's on YouTube, I'm doing air quotes, or there's a lot of people think that I have some, you know, kind of baggage, which we say in the colloquial term, or have some issues with this with boundaries, or whichever and then, but they don't think it's bad enough to go see somebody or they don't think it's enough to go talk someone or they, they want to figure out on their own first, before trying to speak somebody else. So they don't think it's, you know, what, I guess what would you say about about that?

Ngozi: 52:23

I would say I say things in different ways. And I think it's another way of me saying this. I would say that, if you were you know, most of them hang up. In nearly every other area of our lives, we seek expert help, right? If you're gonna get a house, you have maybe 40k saved? Right? Before it would be very nice. Right? Exactly. Where you saved a 40k for a couple of years, right? But you would probably go to a mortgage broker before starting to put money where you can do it anyways, without you know, without somebody, unless you just, you know, have the money itself. And they might say, You know what, save about 20k more. Right, but you wouldn't know that before you before that you saved 40k. For that, you know, 10? How didn't how much it is 10 20% you need to do, but you go to a mortgage broker, if you think you're ready now. Yeah, they don't have enough, actually. So what I'm basically saying is that you don't wait until you're 60. And then you go, you typically start researching doing something to find out what is it that you need to the worst thing is to prepare yourself to go somewhere. And you're told you're ain't got everything prepared. So likewise, flip it and flip on its head. Right? If you saw things are not that bad. Right? One, I would just say, is one how do you know? Because you don't think everyone else do you think that that bad? Secondly, yeah, because limited, we're not really good. We're really not really good. That's affecting unless there's a mover that's usually been held up for us to begin to see, we've got blind spots. And these drivers know, right? If you're driven long enough, we were doing your test. There are blind spots. I haven't heard anybody saying God, as I mean, anyways, that's about that. The point is, I haven't had any major accidents. But I know we've all confidently driven out looks like all our mirrors. And sadly, stuff comes out of nowhere or something. I did not see you like I looked at 16 blind spots, right? We have blind spots. So what I'm saying is, if you feel that things are not that bad, right? That might be the case, maybe it genuinely is not that bad. Do you want it to get worse? That's what I would say, right? And how do you know anybody gets worse because you're already you're already diminishing your own experience, things are not that bad, because you're doing it in comparison, because we only say things are not that bad in comparison to others. Because if it's just thinking about ourselves is bad is bad. mean not having no boundary is bad. But you'll be going I don't have no boundary but that person over there is or that person, right? We compare so you're usually doing it because you're comparing yourself to others. I appreciate that there's always going to be somebody in a worse position that the Lord somebody I in a worse position. I'll also say from another angle, is that he said it's gonna get worse. So if you want to, if you want it to get worse and and get help, then let me tell you the truth, right? It is very hard to undo 1015 20 3040 5060 years of trauma. So when people current, amazing, they've come, but you know the amount of work that's needed to undo 60 years of their lives. 60 years of thinking in a certain way. If you come earlier, maybe in your 20s maybe in your 30s it's still gonna take long, when got to do double the work. It basically doubled, right? You want me to do more work? Really what you're saying is, is that you're gonna come and you're really, really bad and I've got to do more work to undo this. Right. So I would say that to people to encourage people Good. I actually think it's good if you don't feel you're that bad because it's thank God that not every single person had a traumatic life. It's not trauma Olympics. If you have secure relationships, you can sometimes it's like people can I feel like to your question, your first question. A lot of people realise they've gone through trauma, right? So what you have nowadays is trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma, but there are some people that had good enough parents, they had an okay life. And then they go, Oh, crap, but I still got issues. But in comparison to that person who was odd, and that person who did and that person that may be mine is not that great. And that's a negative thing, when sometimes we push trauma so much that people that haven't gone through the big T traumas, for example, kind of just feel, you know, maybe what I'm going through isn't really that bad is that it's not really about bad or not bad. If you feel that something is off, if you feel that you can get better in life, why not go. And what I will say then, is if you want the best quality of life, and there's something stopping you from having that, even if it's just 1%, the other 1% hasn't got to be 1020 80% 80% is hard, you know, you know how hard it is to deal with 80% of trauma, rather than less, I would want to know 10% of autonomy, do you know how great that is, I know that we really want to do this little bit, and then you're thriving like that, because people that have a lot of trauma in therapy, they will tell you is one of the hardest things they have to do. So I would encourage people that haven't got it, it's not a coach, right? Not that bad, amazing. Go get help get support. Because what it would mean is that you need 1015 years of psychological therapy, you might need a good six months, 12 months to really fine tune and retune your mindset really just bolster what you are currently doing. And lift you up, I think it's an amazing thing that I want to encourage people that I sometimes feel like, there are people that don't have trauma, or that they feel bad. Now, because of that, I haven't really got so much good. This is good therapy so that our children don't have to have 80% of trauma, they're going to come up with some scratches, but let it be 10 or 20%, rather than 80. We don't want at we don't because the world isn't ready, just because of a recent trauma. But imagine if more people in 2015 40s was like oh my god, that's what we want. That's what we want. So I'm sipping on his head to just really say, whether you got 20 80%, or trauma 20% and 0.5%. If something that's stopping you from being a best version of yourself, present and future, go to therapy, go get a coach, get some that will hold up a mirror to you. And you can begin that process of reflecting on yourself and dealing with what we call maladaptive behaviour. So you can, you know, be present in the moment and deal with things as is rather than deal with things back then.

Naomi: 58:44

I love that. That was That was fantastic. That was That was

Ngozi: 58:47

So long winded way, right? I loved it.

Naomi: 58:50

I loved it. And you know, I guess what you're basically saying is the people that have got five years of therapy have worth of trauma, you know, go to those five years, and the people have got 20 years, or you said six years worth of trauma therapy 60 years worth of therapy to go through for their trauma, they can also go to that and everybody can go and sort themselves out. And you know, it even if it is only five years worth or two years worth of therapy, or whatever it is, you know, it's worth doing that so that you can become sort of less maladaptive in the future, whatever issues are experiencing that because obviously one has issues, you know, there's there's never going to be a universal route. But it would be great. Like you said that if we could all get to the stage where everybody on the planet only in his five years of therapy or not.

Ngozi: 59:33

You 5% of trauma. Isn't that amazing? So that's, you know, I actually think I just when I meet people who don't feel it, they haven't gone through a lot of trauma and usually go oh, actually you have because you you've suppressed and you've forgotten about it, when people genuinely feel that they don't need to have gotten much issues. I think it's a great feeling. I haven't got much issues. But mean, but you said you haven't got much meaning you've got some, if you've got no issues, that's a different, right. And that's possible. And so then, so you've probably got issues. So I always say then look forward, right, because therapy a lot of time is dealing with behind dealing with the past, right to help you in the present and your future. So if you feel that you haven't got much behind, you haven't got much baggage, then what have you got the stopping you from going forward? See in that way, that's why if it's not therapy can be really good coaching, right? So I'm not gonna say you've got to have therapy, maybe you need a really good coach. But if you are not where you think you need to be, then you need somebody to support you that process you can't do on your own. But if you did, if you could do it, your own would have been you would have gotten there already. So I'd say to the whole idea of you can do it on your own. Why is it taking that long to sort it out then if you can do it sorted out, if we're not sorting it out, then you need help.

Naomi: 1:00:38

Or go through life with taking no advice from nobody, you know, I mean, that's not it's not gonna work. Is it? Like you said, if you if you were going to be sorted out, we would have all been able to reflect on ourselves and magically all sorted our own issues. installed all our own personality problems and everything.

Ngozi: 1:00:55

Perfect and well, you know, it would be perfect. It probably, you know, probably the world would be short of hunger, you know, all of the good stuff but at the case, right, really so yeah.

Naomi: 1:01:04

Well, we mean, we wouldn't say anything passive aggressively. We'd all be like, totally intentional about everything. Come out and say it like I was feeling hurt, instead of just play some weird game with each other. Yeah. I wonder what that would be like, it'd be probably quite a bit very, like short TV show. Yeah.

Ngozi: 1:01:25

And actually utopia?

Naomi: 1:01:28

Yeah, I think it would definitely be very different. Yeah. So we're just about to come to the end. Now, the podcasts and things. And I guess, one of the things as well wanted to touch on a little bit, just before we end was about, I know that there's many like free resources out there and things we've spoken as well about, like getting started in things. And especially I know, obviously, the moment it's going to be quite difficult with the recession and things for everybody starting. I don't know, what have you had any sort of advice about? Kind of? Is it still worth getting using free resources that are out there? Or is it worth even just like starting with friends, even if it may be, you know, therapy isn't within your budget, or maybe created for the session once a month? What would be your recommendation with that?

Ngozi: 1:02:07

How can we be controversial? Because I really do believe in that, I think, and I must say, I always have to say, I'm not saying but if I was a business coach, or when people tell me, I'm got money, I'm saying find money, I started business, I took out a loan, you know, you know, borrowed from a fellowship, most businesses to seek out investment. I would say to a degree, I would say to degree because some people go into the overcharge for holidays, you go into a credit card for things right. I will, again, be mindful. But I would say that, you know, my service is quite affordable, there are some really affordable services, right, and it's a affordable 50 pound and that to some people, it is still expensive, I do appreciate that. But most therapy, most therapists are sick 5060 pounds minimum per session, there's 200 Plus, you know, a month, that is quite expensive for a lot of people. So mine is 120 pounds a month, and some are even cheaper than that. Obviously an NHS it's free. I sometimes say how willing are you to really seek your mental well being, you know, I've known people go in using that credit card to support themselves, because and then supporting themselves, they get out of their ramp, they get the job, and then they cut, they pay off their credit. And then they start paying their therapy from, you know, the actual employment. So I'm not saying get into debt to see your mental well being. But we get into debt, because we become impulsive buyers, we get into debt, because we've got addictive personalities, we get into debt for many reasons. And sometimes we are there is good debt and bad debt. And I don't think therapy and mental well being is actually a good debt, you know, and then people go into debt to your teeth. So again, I'm not just trying to encourage people to go into debt. But I sometimes think that excuse and that sounds a legitimate reason. But it's user that we don't have enough money. Sometimes it's more to do we don't value it enough to say, what can I cut for them is a genuine thing of what can I create in my life for three months or six months to say that 50 pounds, that 40 quid that I normally spend on? I this is about 40 quid yesterday on on a tax return. Right?

Naomi: 1:03:58

I mean, that's great.

Ngozi: 1:04:00

Yeah, I love it, right. But let's I didn't do that that's an extra 40 pounds, I could have spent, if I had an issue with you know, if I can afford therapy on therapy for one week. So I would balance that however, there are people in situations that look they cannot afford therapy at all, I totally get your own benefit. Your single mother just given us an example of that. There are the NHS, there's some mind services, local minds that are free, that you can kind of go to there are local services, if you literally just write low cost l o w cost counselling, not in every area of the UK, but in some areas in the UK, you will find services that are extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely inexpensive to get out. Again, it might only be a couple of weeks ago when you might use X amount of sessions. But you can access some therapy at a very low cost or free on the NHS as well. But I would also encourage people that look if you really need to get help, and you have access to a credit card. And you know you can pay at the end of the month. But it's not within your always your just your main budget I would I would actually incur to go into it. Because actually it's for your benefit. Because in doing that you enable your mental health and mental well being you've invested in yourself, and you will pay that off your rent, you pay that off, but it's not a bad debt, it's actually a good debt. So, again, I do put a caveat to that and I encourage anyone to get into debt. But as people will say, you know, if you've got a business idea and you want to fund it, seek out a loan, you know, seek out investment. I will say if you want good mental well being and you are able to somewhat afford it. You're not constrained in such a way where you just have no money at all. I will consider you know, doing certain things to make sure you can afford it because it's for your future. It's for not only your future, it's for your family's future because if you've got poor mental well being you If you are struggling, your mental health, you're impacting those around you. So other people are suffering. It's not just you. It's not you know, you're not an island. So I would say it is for your life, you know, mental health treatment saves lives, literally. So you want your life to be saved. So sometimes you've got to fork out, go into an overdraft, go into your credit card to say, I need to make sure that my noggin, I didn't want to not be here. Again, I don't want to continue being in a dark room being a duck. I don't want to harm myself. These are the things I've got to put it into perspective, and what is a couple 100 pounds in debt? To make sure that my mental well being is good. But yeah, there's free resources out there. Friends, you know, I would be I think, I think I'd be careful, you know, but I will say that if you have a trustworthy friend to talk to you even talk to your friends even borrow your money. Look, dude, we need some friends out here. Some of us friends, I'm not gonna I'm gonna be the best person to talk to. But here's 100 quid, because a lot of people have done that. And my service has sponsored people to go for it. That's a good friend. So good friend that might say, Look, I'll pay for therapy for three months. I can afford it. I can pay 100 something pounds a month. So maybe for three months or 300 quid to support you. Right. That's a good birthday present. So don't get me Don't get me. Don't get me that give me therapy for my birthday for Christmas for my Wow. Yeah. Experience present. Yes. The year that saving my life present. Yeah, that is making sure my mental well being is good enough so that I can be here for my children and for my family for my for my partner that is to present that I want. So yeah. If you want to say hello to friends. Yeah, friend, can you sponsor me for therapy, please?

Naomi: 1:07:32

It's my monzo details in the description! I think that you summarised it really well. And then you were saying that people, it's not necessarily that obvious. There's many different circumstances. And there's many options available for different needs and different levels. I know that there's charities, for example, that you just pay what you can, and if sometimes, if you can't pay anything, you don't pay anything at all. And there's many ones that are free as well. But I think what you were saying is that we need to really see this as a focus, I see this as an investment for people that are able to, and that people are able to go and things I guess in the same way that some people invest in a gym membership, or maybe different levels, they might invest in like a sports bra, or, you know, a pair of trainers, maybe they don't go to the gym, but they invest in some shoes so they can go running, whatever the level is, I think what you were saying was to invest in it and to invest in your mantle's and see it as a vital part of well being of about you know, of leaving leading a successful life.

Ngozi: 1:08:30

100% 100% Yeah, definitely. Exactly. And the caveat is that every thing that is usually low cost, and free has a time limit. So whereas most people need more than 6-12, anything that you want, that's going to be long term you're going to have to pay for and that's the reason why I'm then I'm saying that once you do the six to 12 to 10, sessions, even the 1600s even get 24 sessions. But after that 24, six months after that, you're that crash, don't need this. You've got to think okay, I need to make an investment and yet it might be a temporary detriment that financially for the long term benefit, both financially, emotionally, physically, mentally.

Naomi: 1:09:16

Right from the therapists mouth themselves. Thank you so much for being on today. I really loved our discussion today. I was looking forward to anyway because it was something I'm interested in as well. I just want to ask for our listeners, you know, where can people find you? How can they contact you? You know, all the information about that?

Ngozi: 1:09:37

Okay, yes. So if you know, I work in I work across the whole idea of mental health and leadership. So if you as an employee, were like, oh my god, I love this. I would love your company to work in my company or you're in HR, or your whoever that your decision maker Ngozi Cadmus N-G-O-Z-I Cadmus, LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, that's probably the best place to come to me because then when you come to me, you can go into different routes. So if you want as an individual, you know, private therapy, then go there. Go to Sutton and therapist via English academy. If you want to speak to myself and my team or messaging me and my team will get back to you and we can begin a conversation about how to support you, your department, your company, in terms of their mental well being, or in terms of the lack of representation of Black and Asian individuals within the company as well. So yeah, they can get to meet N-G-O-Z-I Cadmus on all social media platforms.

Unknown: 1:10:34

Brilliant. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. Speak with our listeners, and just share all of your little pearls of wisdom.

Ngozi: 1:10:42

Hopefully they they've been pearls not big dragon nuts

Naomi: 1:10:46

I think dragon nuts could be nice as well. So it depends on what flavour you know what to what kind of ticket one. Thank you listeners for listening and we'll speak to you in the next episode

Diversifying Group: 1:11:02

thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support this podcast, please share it with others and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Keep up to date with what we do at diversifying group@diversifying.com or follow us on social media at diversifying group. See you next time.