What I Want Other Queer Sikh People to Know With Pritpal Bhullar

Trigger warning: this episode discusses issues to do with racism, anti-Sikhism and homophobia.

 This week Naomi interviews LGBTQ++ advocate Pritpal Bhullar on his experiences coming out as a bisexual man in this Sikh community and raising his family with his partner.

 Listen and learn more about the unique experience of LGBTQ+ Sikhs and how faith and sexuality intersect, and how you can support and know more about the community today.


 For a transcript of the show, see our hosting site: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1236089/episodes

 About our guest:

Pritpal Bhullar has been a volunteer for a charity called Diversity Role Models (DRM) for about 5 years. It is a charity which actively seeks to embed inclusion and empathy in the next generation, which will in time lead to a world where future generations embrace, accept and support difference. DRM do this by facilitating workshops in schools by creating safe spaces where participants can explore difference and consider their role in creating a world where we all feel accepted.

Learn more about Diversifying Group

Transcript

Pritpal: 0:27

When I came out, I remember going into the LGBT community and thinking I should be feeling at home in that place, and I didn't, I was not made to feel welcome. When you're in that position. You think, Oh, I've got to go out to my kids. How do I do that? This doesn't feel right. Because, okay, and you think you're the only gay or bisexual dad in the world? And it can be quite just as just as sort of what I used to think it can be any gay or bisexual man figpin in the world is same thing when it comes to fatherhood as well.

Diversifying Group: 1:04

Please stop all this work agendas. It's Political correctness gone mad. Sorry, thought police, You're such a snowflakes, Surely all lives matter. Ah, did those sound familiar? Here on you can't say anything anymore. we'll unpack the nuances of these comments and bring sidelines lived experiences to the forefront brought to you by Diversifying Group.

Naomi: 1:30

Hi, everyone, welcome to this month's podcast on your podcast host. My name is Naomi. My pronouns are she and they. And this month, we've got a very special guest. If you'd like to introduce yourself, please.

Pritpal: 1:41

Hello, my name is Pritpal Bhullar. Though my pronouns are he him, and I'm a Sikh man, who is just going to talk about some of the stuff I do within the LGBT community as a bisexual man.

Naomi: 1:55

Brilliant, thank you so much. Yeah, I saw your profile on, I think was one of the Instagram posts that I saw. And it was about sort of seeing your work in with Sabates. And with obviously, about the LGBTQ plus community, which I thought was super interesting. And yeah, if you could just outline for our listeners, but you know, what kind of is this Sikh LGBTQ plus community? Like and how did you become involved with this community?

Pritpal: 2:21

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, the Sikh community generally is a fairly small community. So in terms of numbers, there's about 25, to 30 million Sikhs around the world. So that's a fairly small number. And when you're then obviously looking at, well, how many of those are LGBTQ plus, that's even a smaller proportion. So you're already a small community, a minority, and then within that you're also another minority community. So it's quite a dispersed community. I came across Sabbath as a virtual community. So they're a Sikh LGBT group, who provide results, resources and support to people who happen to either be Sikh or LGBTQ plus, or happen to have some sort of other interests that links them in with either one of those characteristics, I guess.

Naomi: 3:20

Yeah, amazing. I don't know if you could share a bit about your kind of experiences with within those groups at all.

Pritpal: 3:26

Yeah, absolutely. So. So as a community group. So birth is something which provides a lot of support to, to people who already feel fairly alienated. Because I say, being a minority group already being, you know, having visible identity to face such as my turban and my beard, you know, we stand out. But also, you know, generally, we probably don't fit the sort of stereotype that you'd expect for an LGBTQ plus person, if there is such a stereotype. But certainly, you know, one of the things that you do find that you, you do stand out, for many reasons. And it could be the full religious or ethnic background. And in the LGBT community. When I came out, I remember going into the LGBT community and thinking, I should be feeling at home, but in that place, and I didn't, I was not made to feel welcome. I felt quite alienated. So being able to join a group like Sabbath helps because it helps you communicate with and connect with other people who looked like me, but also happen to maybe understand a bit more my experience, but also might share some of the same experiences that are similar experiences that I've had in my life there. From that point of view, it's really good place to be able to connect with other people across the globe, who happen to share religious philosophy but also similar community experiences as well.

Naomi: 5:03

Yeah, I can imagine obviously, when we spoke before it's sort of pre podcast as well when we're talking about the kind of difficulties with the intersecting relationship between faith and religion and and LGBTQ plus communities. And I think that you know, you just spoke about it here is that this is someplace where you expect it to feel at home, but you didn't for various reasons. I don't know if you have any kind of more reflections about you know, any more experiences about, I guess that kind of how to say, there does seem to be a big divide within LGBTQ plus communities and the concept of faith, because for various reasons, and many of them have been firsthand experiences of injustices, you know, for the face of those individuals, you know, you know, perpetuated by certain religious individuals and things.

Pritpal: 5:54

Yeah, I mean, I think it's quite accepted that very many faiths have done a lot of harm to LGBT plus people. Okay, so I set out at the beginning, laid out there, because it's true, we need to start off at that position. A lot of LGBTQ plus people, therefore, that I have come across have therefore had either hostility or reluctance to engage with people who might be involved with religion. But equally when I've been doing my LGBTQ plus work in the interfaith space, I've met people, for example, who are Christians who have said that they find it harder to come out as Christian within the LGBT community than they have as being LGBTQ plus in the first place. So it's a bit of a paradox, they're really looking at this, you know, we were talking about the coming out of somebody, which, you know, as LGBTQ plus people, we all come out, come out, at some point, took first to ourselves and then to other people. And then it's just, it's just strange, that we then as a personal faith have to do the same within a within the LGBTQ plus community. But obviously, I can't hide it. So my mere presence with somebody shows them that I have a faith identity, though, it's so although other people can maybe hide their religious beliefs, which people have said they have had to do, I can't do that. So again, the key thing is well, and the good thing about technology these days is, if you can't find a community that you can connect with, we can create our own communities and actually, by, you know, connecting with other like minded people, not just a Sikh faith, but lots of other backgrounds, as well religious or non religious. I found some beautiful communities and some amazing people that I've been working with it to try and work in this space, so that we can make it easier for people to be whoever they are, but also have a faith as well and not have to hide it. And so that people can be comfortable, but equally, trying to get people who are on mainstream straight communities to understand the harm that they have done, or their faith or the faiths have done to people from the LGBT community, and how, how they can maybe start welcoming those of us that want to go into faith communities and work with faith communities, and be part of those communities, hoping they will open their arms, and welcome us back. I mean, we still are hearing horrific stories of children who are committing suicide, because they find that they cannot be of the faith background that they are, and, and they're LGBTQ plus identity. In the UK, at least in 2022. This is unacceptable, and it must stop.

Naomi: 8:45

It is really awful, to think about how much pain there is in people feeling that they have to rip apart those parts of themselves, which are parts of the same thing, which are all parts of them and their history and their story in their background, as I mentioned about how culture and religion often tie in together. And the history in sort of intertwine us about that. And to think that people feel as if their whole self cannot be, you know, just don't compute, you know, it cannot be cannot exist together. I think that's as I think it's really awful. And it's, you know, I like to you mentioned about the responsibility of the sort of the straight faith community and what they have towards other people of faith and LGBTQ people of faith specifically, to welcoming them.

Pritpal: 9:33

Yeah, absolutely. And we're still seeing the fights that are going on, really, within religious institutions. I mean, the Anglican Communion have recently had the Lambeth Conference, which is a really big thing in the sort of the Anglican Communion around sort of takes place every 10 or 12 years. And again, you know, that there was a huge fight over LGBTQ plus writes, there was possibly, you know, there was potential there for rolling back on same sex marriages that are taking place in some of these community. And I can't believe that we are going backwards rather than having conversations around around affirming people of religion, to be accepted for who they are. You know, so this is a real battle that we have to face and that's why, for me, it's really important that we come together as people of faith to support one another, because there are there are many allies within the faith communities as well. So I say, thank you very much for your ally ship. But it's, you know, it shouldn't be left just to those of that faith to fight on their own, we need to fight one another's battles and support one another, just as trans people's rights are being trampled on these days, you know, we need to stand shoulder to shoulder along with our trans community, friends and family, and show solidarity with them as well. So they're accepted for who they are, and their rights aren't aren't taken away, either. And that then takes us on to other issues around conversion therapy. And now it's accepted, it is abusive, but yeah, we still can't get a ban in place, you know, or if we do get a bad in place, and we, you know, we're going to allow that abuse to still carry on for trans people, which doesn't make any sense. It's, it's abusive to one human being, it's abusive to all. So let's just ban it for everybody. You know, let's make sure protections are there for all people. So I think these are conversations that are really important. And we need to have solidarity we need to work together. And even those people within the LGBT community who don't have a belief, or a belief or faith in God, you know, that showing ally ship to us is important. Because as a person of faith, and being LGBTQ plus, I cannot separate my sexual orientation from, my being as just as I cannot. I cannot stop my my belief, or whatever they are, you know, they are what they are. And I believe what I believe, and I shouldn't have to choose, No, I shouldn't have to say, Okay, well, I'll deny who I am to be religious, and I'll pretend to be straight, or I'll give up my faith, just so I can be who I am. Why should we be denied any part of our identity?

Naomi: 12:31

I love to put it like that. And I think that the idea that we need to support everybody, and everybody needs, you know, I think that's, you know, fantastic. And the fact that you said that, why do you have to deny bits of yourself to to fit into something to be a part of something, when really all of them are part of you? I guess this kind of rolls into my kind of next question, and you've spoken about it a bit as well. But, you know, what would you say are some of the challenges that you faced with all these different intersecting identities, you know, that you identify as a bisexual man, you know, as a personal faith, and you know, as well that you also identifies as a father as well. So I guess I've just wondered what your kind of viewpoint was about the challenges of all of these intersecting identities? And where many people perhaps believed that these don't? These can't coexist?

Pritpal: 13:21

Yeah, so it's interesting, really, when you talk about the intersection of all these different identities, so as a father of two daughters, people just expect me to be straight. Looking at me as a man of faith with a turban, and looking the way I do, people just expect me to be straight. So there's all these perceptions that people have then, as I say, when I'm in the LGBTQ plus community people. Sort of like, Oh, why are you here, and fit in with us sort of thing. And then, and then having to come out is, is quite challenging. And I remember actually, when my children were younger, around my worries around having to come out to not children, their friends, necessarily my children's friends, but really their parents, I found that quite a struggle personally. Because when you're younger, when kids younger, you spend a lot of time in sort of, you know, with the, with the parents of their friends and stuff. And if some of them, you know, well, which is fine, because their friendship, but others, you might have ad hoc relationships with where you sort of bump into them. Now, ordinarily, I don't really see why I should have to come out to anybody that I don't want to. But equally, it's a bit awkward when sometimes they're asking about which partner or whatever, you know, and then you've got to sort of come out with it. And it's like, do I, the worry, the worry that I had when my girls were younger was around, does this mean if I was to come out to this parent who I don't really know very well, that my children might be denied access to one of their friendship groups. And, and that's where you're coming from. And so, you need you. I think it's really it's just for me, it was really important to be able to understand that my children were in a place where they were happy about who I am. And to be honest, they've always been my biggest allies, as well. And when I knew for actually, that their love for me as their father is more important than the fact that somebody might think bad of them because of who I happen to love and And that was quite empowering actually. What I, what I did do when we, as well was them signed up with a charity called diversity role models. And what I did with them was I went into schools, with this charity as a volunteer, to support them to give LGBT inclusion, education to children of all ages from 4 years old, all the way up to 18. And this was a really good way of me learning different approaches and styles, depending on ages of much my children, their friends, to be able to share the information around aromatics rotation and how to do it. So it's a bit it was a really, it was a really powerful tool to be able to support me with the upbringing of my children to make sure that they are given the right information, because just because you come out doesn't mean that you actually know what all these different identities mean. I mean, I knew nothing, for example, about trans experience or trans people, you know, I only knew what my experience was that someone who lived the life of a straight man happened, and then happened to, you know, have attractions to men as well. And, and accept it when I stopped denying that sort of that so I can only share my experience. But as you're going through this, I was working with lots of other volunteers, hearing their stories and experiences as well. And again, that really. Hearing, I think hearing about all these experiences that people are going through, made me realise that there's a lot more work that we need to do in the community to be able to make sure that when children grow up, they can just grab themselves without having to hide who they are, without having to pretend, and without having to fit in to please other people, just to be accepted and loved for who they are, I found that, you know, it was a lot of work to do so. So hence why working in the various sort of different places that I've have interested in such as religion, such as, you know, gay, and bisexual dad, these are really important communities for me, to be able to work with him to try and make life a little bit better for somebody else.

Naomi: 17:41

I think that's really amazing that you said that your kids or your your kind of biggest supporters, and I think that's kind of speaks to the pure nature of things that kids you know, we don't. I know, I know, this has been, you know, it's an old old book we've all been selling for ages. But what many of us have been? It's, you know, kids, they don't? They don't, you know, they don't know any hate when they start off, do they, they just, you know, you're their dad, and they love you. You know, that's That's it? They don't, they don't think, you know, they don't not conscious all the time of, oh, my dad is, you know, whatever identity. And I think that it's it really is as simple as that.

Pritpal: 18:15

I think the biggest challenges, though not not necessarily. It's maybe not that last point, it might actually just be around, well, actually, how do I make sure that kids have full facts, when somebody wants to challenge them, they are able to respond confidently, without feeling belittled. And I think that that's where it's really important. Because if if you think about many people who you know, even ever think of my own personal experience, when I was growing up, I didn't know anybody who was LGBT, fascinate, just so I thought. And because it wasn't talked about section 24 was in place, which meant it was illegal for it to be taught in schools or anyone to talk about it. So. So we didn't even know, I didn't even know. So I had to learn all this stuff. It's about making sure that we can also help other people understand that it's all about either accepting yourself for who you are, whether it's in relation to attraction to another person, or whether it's to do with your gender identity or gender expression, you know, it's all about accepting yourself for who you are. But it's about trying to explain this to people who don't understand that experience. So probably LGBTQ plus people go through just so they understand. Actually, we haven't changed, the person we are now coming out to you as you should love, because it's the real me.

Naomi: 19:39

Yeah, absolutely. And I, you know, that was gonna be my next question was about your your work in schools, but you've already given us a great summary about that. And I think that, I mean, do you think that then the kind of key takeaway from this is about the lived experience, the fact that you heard these people's stories and that was kind of how you got to go to know more about different people from from the wider LGBTQ plus community?

Pritpal: 20:04

Yeah, absolutely. So lived experience, I think, works for everybody because we have all had a different experience, regardless of what our characteristics are. They you know, straight, LGBTQ plus, you know, ethnic minority from the mainstream community. You know, everybody has their own story. We need to listen to one another stories because we learn by listening to other people. By telling our story, it can also actually be quite healing as well, by being able to share that with other people. By being able to tell other people, I find it a way that it does, in a way has healed some of those wounds that I've probably created for myself, as somebody had to deny who I was because, you know, I didn't think I would be accepted by by society, family, community, friends, whoever.

Naomi: 20:58

Yes, I guess I was going to ask about kind of speaking to, because obviously, I can only speak from my experience as well, things and you know, identifies as pansexual, for example. And I think that there's something as well, about what I've heard from a lot of other people who identifies as bi or as pansexual, you know, is almost that kind of, I don't know, do you think that there's something in the sense that because attraction to two or more genders is something as well that is also kind of stigmatised is the idea that that you need to pick one thing or one, one gender to be attracted to, which itself is a very archaic way of looking at things.

Pritpal: 21:38

I mean, at the end of the day, but I think that, that saying Love is love, that we sort of all go on about him during pride month, is the point, you know, love is you fall in love with whoever you fall in love with, it shouldn't really matter. So we, in an ideal world, we shouldn't have to put a label on anything, and we just accept people to you know, somebody loves somebody else, we should celebrate that it's beautiful. You know, it shouldn't matter what the label reads, unfortunately, you know, we we do need to talk about these labels further, because the problem is that the LGBTQ plus community have been marginalised after marginalised and we need to get that normalisation acceptance of everybody for who they are. So yeah, I, my aspiration is that I never have to do any of this charity work again, because we will just accept people for who they are. And there will be no need to go and sort of say, Oh, I'm Pritpal, I'm bisexual, you know, this is what it means because people just go oh that's Pritpal, he's in love with whoever, and it's beautiful. That's what we need the best way where we need to just stop it. And just celebrate. You know, love is a beautiful thing. There's two consenting adults, we're in a beautiful, loving relationship. That's amazing.

Naomi: 23:16

Yeah, we can get into the more interesting things like what your favourite food is, and what music

Pritpal: 23:21

Absolutely, and disagree on politics and all those other things that we disagree about, but like, let's just accept one another for who we are.

Naomi: 23:28

Exactly. I think that who you're dating or who you're attracted to, is probably, you know, for many times, sometimes the least interesting thing about, you know, with the person really, it's, you know, doesn't really say much about the kind of conversations you're really going to have. But yeah, I guess I wanted to move on to ask a bit about you spoken a bit as well, but sort of parenthood and things. And I know you've done some work with the other podcasts about sort of like LGBTQ parenting and things. And you know, what does it mean to you then to be in this kind of space? And I know you mentioned before, as well, being a very visual, sorry, being a very visible, not only minority, but a visible person and face as well. So occupying all of these spaces, but also being within the LGBTQ fatherhood space, as well, I mean, yeah, I wanted to ask you about your experiences with that.

Pritpal: 24:20

Yeah, I could talk about that. So just to give some context, I have my children in a straight relationship. And after that relationship came to an end, I came out. So it's really odd, because when you're in that position, you think, Oh, I've got go out to my kids. How do I do that? This doesn't feel right. Because you again, you think you'll be only gay or bisexual dad to the world. And it can be quite just as just as sort of thing what I think can be any gay or bisexual man in the world, is same thing when it comes to fatherhood as well. I thought it was the only man in this situation. But actually, I was really lucky because I came across an amazing community of gay dads. And there's loads of them, there's 1000s of them out there who are men in a similar situation to me where they've been in a straight relationship. Some of them their partners knew some of them didn't know some of them didn't need themselves until their relationships came to and end. So there's a whole mixture of stories in that space as well. So it's an amazing community where we've got dads who support one another, who happened to either be going through a crisis or have realised at some point that they are attracted to men or they have separated or divorced from, and have kids and they they are coming coming new into the the gay or gay LGBTQ plus world. Obviously but, they're coming in as Fathers. So it's a great community where we support one another, share stories, again, provides support, you know, discuss parenting challenges that we all have our teenagers. And there's been some people who have gone have got married within that community as well. So, what we've within that community, what we've managed to do start building some resources. So by bringing our skills together, so one of the gay dads in my community, for example, was writer. So he went off and published a book called gay dad. And it's the story of 10 of the dads compiled. So please do go on to Amazon and buy a copy and have a read. It's amazing. Another gay dad was a journalist and an array, scriptwriter. eith put together a podcast called Rainbow dads, which has had two series that have come out. So yeah, go out and have a look at that as well. They have listened to that. It's, it's an award winning podcast as well. So it's won several awards. So and we've connected with lots of other communities around around the world, again, of people who are in similar positions, but might not have any support networks. So you know, we've linked up with other organisations to provide input into other fathering issues in the world of gay parenting is changing now anyway, because I just remember what in the past, very many men of my my age, who happened to be gay. Were sort of men who didn't ever expect to have children, because they weren't, you know, it wasn't allowed. They couldn't adopt, they couldn't Foster and all these sorts of things, so that for them, they just never contemplated it. Well, these days, obviously, because it's equality is exists in parenting as well, we've had, you know, we do have lots of lots of young men and women in same sex partnerships, are looking at least different ways of going and creating their families, whether it's through fostering or adoption, or through surrogacy the same many different routes that they can use. So yeah, so there's lots of people coming into this into our community now who have lots of varied experiences of how they've had children, and how they've got their family. And it's amazing. And so when when we're doing the work with diversity role models, a lot of the stuff we do, particularly with younger children, it's all about talking about diverse families. So you know, families who could be from straight couples, they've got families before they come together, it can be two men that come together, it could be two women that come together and and family, you know, it could be more, you know, multiple generations, you know, some people might have two or three generations of people living in their household as well. So there's different types of families, diverse families, and it's about how we celebrate. And just don't expect everybody to have, you know, a mum, dad and two children.

Naomi: 29:00

Feels like a nuclear family.

Pritpal: 29:02

Yeah, absolutely. So it's, it's about how how modern family looks, which is many different, you know, there's not one way of describing it, there's lots of different ways. And it's, you know, what, however, it suits people.

Naomi: 29:15

Yeah, I love that. And I mean, all of those, those resources sound great. I guess, I think that in some ways, as well, one of the, what I guess, would be one of the biggest challenges is that, as you mentioned, that this is kind of, essentially, you know, LGBTQ parenthood is kind of a new thing, because previously, it's been not allowed. So although many people have been, you know, fantastic uncles, or sort of step parents, in a sense, but many people weren't allowed to have families before. So I guess that the resources and challenges are just starting to be written. Would you say that that was kind of part of it as well?

Pritpal: 29:48

Yeah, so there's a lot more information available out there. There are still challenges in that space, because obviously, legislation hasn't caught up with the reality of the lives of people in living. So for example, if you go have your children in a particular jurisdiction, do you have to get a visa to bring the back again and how to get the names of the birth certificates and all those sorts of things. So different countries have different regulations as to how it all works out. And the other thing is, well, it's it's very expensive. So unless you are well off, surrogacy for example is really difficult. But when when people do come sort of to talk about parenting, the advice I give them is you can spend hundreds 1000s pounds and surrogacy would you not rather spend that money on maybe given a home to a child who might need one? There are plenty of children who we can probably already in the world. You could do with them some love. And some parents who will give them all the things that all children deserve? You know, there's cuddles and These sorts of things, though, you know, for fostering and adoption, great alternatives for many people to it. But some people, it's, it's funny because some people sort of say, Oh, but I really want to have a genetic link, because I feel like I don't need one. And it's like, well, that doesn't really alter the way that your child will be, they will love you, they should love you for who you are. Even if you got a genetic thing, sometimes, you know, your children, you might have issues something might happen that I didn't miss out on, you know. So I think we just got to know her kids as being, individuals that they are and love them for who they are. And I don't necessarily think a genetic link is more powerful. The most important thing is given them love and cuddles and all these lovely things for kids, you know, kids need. So to be able to provide them with that home in a secure home security, and education and all these things are far more important.

Naomi: 31:52

See her to hear people kids need cuddles and love. That's that's the secret. And to say I think my I just saw something which kind of speaks to what we were talking about here is a study I think it was by the oh, I can't remember the exact name but it's one of the big top five world universities, institutions. I think it might be in The Hague, which I can't remember. But I'll look that up later. But it was saying how actually they did a giant study. And it turns out that kids from LGBTQ families do better at school. And the sort of main factors behind that were, of course, the fact that there's sort of many people who've had families who are LGBTQ, yes, there is a wealth element in that they, you know, they do have to have a lot of money to have potentially, like you said, surrogates or many people need different cycles of IVF, and things like that. But also, all of those kids are wanted, they all, you know, deeply cherished, and looked after. And, you know, I know it sounds very simple Disney sort of, you know, having financial gain wanted Is

Pritpal: 32:56

there are there are other statistics as well, which supports, for example, if you compare straight marriages end in divorce versus LGBTQ plus marriages end in divorce, the divorce rates for same sex partners are far lower than they are for heterosexual couples.

Naomi: 33:12

It's really interesting. Well, why that is?

Pritpal: 33:17

I don't know. But the point, the point is, I've made this point with all the all the people that sort of say, you know, marriage is a great thing. It should be between a man and woman now, it's such a great thing that quite often doesn't work. Okay, divorce. So that surely not a good thing? It's at the end. So yeah, so I use that as my little backup line. Those people who sort of say it should be between a man or woman because it's, that's what it says. And I say well made, because if it ended up in divorce, and it's not a good thing, necessarily as it might be, but it might not be so yeah, so so. But again, that might help if we look at you the information you were sort of talking about in terms of LGBTQ plus parenting, but there could be other factors such as this, which provide extra stability for children? I don't know, without looking into it, not everyone I've looked into.

Naomi: 34:09

Yeah, certainly very interesting, I guess, kind of wanting to move on as well to speak about how do you think being an LGBTQ parent has impacted your experience within the wider LGBTQ community? Because obviously, you've spoken a lot about your interactions with all the other sort of sort of LGBTQ dads and things like that. But do you think that there's any kind of difference in experience between that and then being an LGBTQ member of the LGBT community? Say, without kids, for example?

Pritpal: 34:38

Yeah, so it'd be they can I can get by my own experience. And obviously, by my age, as well, so they meant it was so in my experience with men or by an aide, it seems that having children is either a turn off by often rather than something that's a positive thing, but being by by some people. So again, as we talked about before, some people find religion a big turn off as well. There are some people who find, you know, a man with children a turn off as well. And I don't, I don't want to have a bit to deal with with it. But I mean, that's from a dad's point of view. The point the point is, if somebody can turn around and react in that way towards your children, that's a big sign, it would not be a good relationship anyway. So move on fast. Save yourself.

Naomi: 35:34

Run for the hills.

Pritpal: 35:36

Yeah, absolutely. Because your kids should never be a negotiating tool at all. Though, there are so there are so there are again, some people who have very prejudices. And it could just be because, again, so Many people, when they've had to come out in the past have had to squat strength, the right the idea or thought of ever being able to have a family or have children. But again, they find it quite difficult, I think sometimes to accept dating a man or being with another man who happens to have children. So that in itself can be sometimes quite a challenging perspective. But genuinely invest, so many people now, who do have children who are in same sex relationships. You know, even if you go to pride, for example, in the past, it would be very much a adult focus thing. These days, when you go to pride events and stuff, they tend to have pride for different different types of people, so different ages. So they do have sort of family areas, and you even actually have family sections marching and pride as well. So yeah, so it's, it's, as a community. We were all too diverse to start with, it's getting even more diverse. And it's great to be able to see that, you know, LGBTQ plus people, and their families are being accepted more and more into, you know, the events that take place within within that community to

Naomi: 37:08

love that and love that you said it was it was already diverse anyway, and then it just, it's just getting more and more diverse. Yeah, I guess we need to just move on to ask about kind of what sport that support. What support if any, you know, Have you have you experience throughout your whole journey with this.

Pritpal: 37:31

So, so through my LGBT, through, through trying to come to sort of understanding my, my, I journey as a bisexual man. I mean, I first I grew up as a straight man, then I came out as gay. And then I decided I was bisexual because I was attracted to women as well. And the thing is, the difficulty is that nobody tells you what you are you just a you're attracted to whoever you're attracted to. So I don't do it again, if when I was younger, if my attraction more to women, or girls was because I lived in a heteronormative world, I don't know that. But I just know that at the time, it was stronger for women than it is now. And so, so one of the things that we need to be able to do is just understand who we are, and embrace our authenticity from a younger age as possible, because so many young people sort of try and do things to please other people. If I was talking to my younger self, I would say, put yourself first, because you'll never please other people. And so I think so I think so, from a support perspective, people should understand that, you know, you need to be able to help yourself, as well as spare to get help from other people. So that's a great starting point. For any young people, or any people who aren't sure about, or have any questions, or are confused about any of these topics that we're talking about a great resource in switchboard, which is a charity, where they have volunteers who are trained up and you can talk to them. And if they can't help you with the issue you've got, they'll be able to get your core load or, or put you in touch with people who can can get in touch, again, is a great form of support. There's lots of information available on the internet these days and lots of groups. So you know, just if you were to go along and Google something and have a look for support groups in your local area, there are people there are so many different support groups, particularly people who happen to be LGBTQ plus and other faith. There are lots and lots of faith groups who are affirming are welcoming of all people. You know, I mean, I've worked I've watched pastor, a church of Windsor a few weeks ago and you know, and it had a sign which basically is that we welcome and it said all people regardless of religion, regardless of your sexual orientation, regardless your gender identity, everybody is welcome here. So there are so many people out there so many community so many people you can get in touch with. So you know do do reach out and look for look for support. Because there's only so many good charities out there or groups, community groups that can help give you a say if you can't find a community for acceptance you create that community yourself. And you will attract loads of people like minded it will then be able to start doing some amazing stuff with you.

Naomi: 40:49

That's fantastic. I mean, there's there were so many great resources there, I guess I was just gonna ask about what would have meant to sort of younger people, if you had been the recipient of, you know, seeing someone like yourself with the work you do with diverse role models in school.

Pritpal: 41:06

So I guess, if, if I could see people like me, when I was younger, I guess it would have cut out a lot of heartache, I hope. Because I would have just been able to have maybe a younger age, being able to maybe reflected and embraced who I was. The challenge you sometimes have there, again, is living in a living as an ethnic minority in the UK. It's sometimes it's another layer, because, you know, I grew up within a family, who were from a different cultural background, you know, my family has been here for four generations, but we are home with a Sikhs and are part of the Indian wedding Indian community. And you've, you've got various layers that you need to peel off them, to be able to embrace who you are, you know, so. So it's a case of, you know, just try and try and understand who you are, accept who you are, for who you are, don't mix, don't mix, don't just go by other people's expectations of you know, you have to be a doctor, for example, would be a normal thing in an Asian family. It's better all men to be doctors, and I wanted to get off and do a degree in French and German. And I was actually very lucky because my mom was very supportive of of that. And, you know, so able to do what I wanted to do, do what you're good at. So I did. Lucky, but lots of people get under so many influences that have do this and do that, depending on your family, dynamic stuff. And sometimes it's also the unseen pressure of other people. Oh, look what other people's children are doing.

Naomi: 42:48

Asian aunties Yeah.

Pritpal: 42:50

And I've always just said to like, I've always said to my kids that just do what you're happy with. Ignore what other people are doing. Just said, unless you're not doing what I was doing, which is about 16 was working in Tesco for the checkout.

Naomi: 43:07

I think I was no way I was 18. I was working at coop PC.

Pritpal: 43:11

Okay, yeah. Slightly up market. That's fairly.

Naomi: 43:18

That's quite funny. I guess. I'm actually one of the things that just popped into my head. Actually, just before we kind of come to a close was, obviously you mentioned the kind of wider Age community you don't. What kind of popped into my head was there's not any of these pressures about sort of the ageing community with, you know, as well, but there's also sort of your specific religion as well. All of these kind of like compiling down, I don't know, what your what your thoughts are on that, if you'd say that they is it? Is it a case of that for you? They're completely indistinguishable, that they, they both combined together to kind of which moulded your experience of this sort of very heteronormative? World? What would you say that your experiences of those have been different with different layers?

Pritpal: 44:02

I think the experience has been different with different layers. So when I, for example, from a seat perspective, when I've gotten out to, to find out about am I accepted as a, as a bisexual band or a gay man and in the Sikh faith? The response has been, undoubtedly, yes, of course you are because you're created by God. And we love all people for who they are. So that that's the field of theology. So I'm actually quite lucky, unfortunate, because we don't have a narrow theological narrative, which is a barrier to me being who I am from a religious perspective. But then equally there are, there are other challenges, which is around, well, that might be the theological view. But it doesn't mean that society necessarily goes along with that as well. Because society operate the way they want. They, though use whatever excuses they want to, to be able to tarnish people. So it doesn't mean I don't face prejudice. So So you have these. So I think it becomes more challenging because obviously, as a growing up painter, within the Native community, and within a group, that community is quite small and becomes quite, it's quite important part of your, your life and everybody's family that connected through it. And, you know, a lot of your acquaintances are the main threat. And then you think, Well, you know, potentially, that's all gonna go for me, you know, and you can lose all of that. So you've so it's, so it's a challenge and okay, I'm going to get rejected out of that. And then you turn up in an LGBT community, and then they don't accept you because of your, from an ethnic minority or for your for their religious background or whatever it might be, then it gets even more and more difficult because you're struggling to find somewhere where you fit in, I think, which is Why think from, which is why I've said, you know, we need to create our own communities. Because the more of these communities we can create, hopefully, we'll be able to bring together all those people that are loving and accepting, and attract them and hopefully create our own more powerful, enduring, future focused communities. And those ones that rejected us or intend to reject us, will hopefully fizzle away and not exist in the future.

Naomi: 46:21

Yeah, I think that's kind of speaks to what you were speaking about earlier, which was that you felt that in this whole experience, you thought, Oh, my God, am I gonna be the only sort of like, seek dad in, you know, in a same sex relationship in the world? But you know, the fact that is that, you know, there's definitely you're definitely not, you know, but it's this sort of feeling, I guess, of isolation and the feeling of the kind of alienation from from the many groups which you belong in.

Pritpal: 46:47

But when I speak to someone, I still speak to young people in the UK, who reach out for support, they still scared, they still won't come out. They still Wait, aren't prepared to tell people who they really are. So there's fear still exists for people. And I guess over time, and with age and experience, they will be able to do that in their own time, because there's no right time. But David, you should be new issue fear having to come out to another person. And it feels as though there isn't. I think a lot of that fear comes from potentially from rejection. Some of it can also come from place of fear of violence and and other social stigmatisation as well. So yeah, so there's, you know, there's a lot of work we need to do still to be able to provide, you know, supportive environment for people who are in that, in that space, where they don't feel that way. They feel rejected by everybody. And they need to find somebody they can connect, connect with.

Naomi: 47:50

Yeah, that's absolutely fantastic. I love how you put that together. And the fact that you kind of out lunch, outlined all the different challenges that you have with all the different layers of your identity. And you know, that I think you kind of put across very well as well, for many people that I guess, perhaps don't see the challenges that many LGBTQ plus people of colour face, the fact that many of their communities are built around all of these structures, and they stand to lose all of those things, potentially.

Pritpal: 48:20

Yeah, my takeaway would just be around. For anybody listening to this, if you're an ally, you know, just reach out to people, listen to their stories, listen to their experience, and just accept them for who they are. Don't judge, that's really important. If it's anybody who feels like they're being rejected, or any need for any specific reason, don't fear, you know, just be who you are. Because those people that are trying to make you be something else, will never accept you, even if you pander to all of their expectations. So it's better not just to give, give up, before you even start getting sort of going down that way about that road. And hey, that is who I am. And it's easy for me to say, as a 45 year old man talking here, it's easy for me to say, but you know, I just want to thank people who, who might be younger, and on a more vulnerable position. It's not necessarily always easy. But I always say to people, life's not easy. There are challenges. And you just got to sometimes, you know, just it's much harder. If you can't accept yourself for who you are, then to unpick it all and and to start again, then just start embracing who you are, and making sure that you can just be you know, be the wonderful you that you're meant to be. And people will love you for who you are, if they're important if they are important to you. And if they don't, then they shouldn't be important to you.

Naomi: 49:55

Yeah, I think that the I think I said something, something kind of similar was saying that. If the truth breaks a relationship, then it probably wasn't a relationship worth keeping. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on today's episode. Is there any sort of links or things that you'd like to plug or, you know, any, any?

Pritpal: 50:16

Yeah, so, so as a diversity of all models, great. If you google them, they're a great charity, always looking for volunteers who can give their time to support them, but also, if you can find them, then that's even better. So do consider donating to them if you can, again, so bad is a charity which does great work for LGBT Sikh people. So if you are interested reaching out to them, you know against www.sap.net the website for them and if you You're a gay dad, then do grab the rainbow have listened to the rainbow dad's podcast or grab the gay dad book. And from there, you'll be fine pasted on into the gay dad or bisexual dad community. We call ourself cabs for short.

Naomi: 51:10

I love that. Oh, thank you so much again for being on

Pritpal: 51:15

You're most welcome. It's great talking to you. this episode.

Naomi: 51:19

Great! Well, thank you to our listeners, and we'll speak to you all in the next episode.

Diversifying Group: 51:26

Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and would like to support this podcast, please share it with others and leave us a review on Apple podcasts. Keep up to date with what we do at Diversifying Group, at Diversifying.com or follow us on social media @ diversifying group. See you next time.