Let's talk about being a Trustee - Trustees Week 2021

Today is a very special episode! Podcast host Naomi is joined by a co-host, Rebecca Davy (Talent Lead: Boards, BAME Recruitment). Together they sit down with two trustees, Lameya Chaudhury & Michael Crick and discuss their experiences on becoming trustees. Listen as they talks openly about the struggles in representation within trustee boards and how being a trustee has proved to be meaningful for them. In addition listen for any tips and tricks on getting started as a trustee member yourself. 


About our guest speakers:

Lameya Chaudhury – Head of Marketing and Communications at EVERFI UK. Appointed on 06 September 2021 as a Trustee at Lyric Hammersmith Theatre. she/her

Lameya (La-mee-ya)  has over 12 years of experience specialising in education marketing and understands the important role it can play as a tool for positive social change. She is the Head of Marketing and Communications at EVERFI UK, an international technology organisation tackling social issues and long-term inequality.  Her professional career has provided myriad experiences within multicultural environments and various sectors, including commercial, charities and government clients.

Michael Crick

Michael Crick has been a broadcaster and writer for more than 40 years.  Among other posts, he has been Washington correspondent (1988-90) and political correspondent (2011-19) of Channel 4 News, and political editor of BBC Newsnight (2007-11).  He has won four Royal Television Society awards, including Specialist Journalist of the Year in both 2014 and 2018.  He was Political Studies Association Journalist of the Year in 2014, and given the Charles Wheeler Award for Outstanding Contribution to  Broadcast Journalism in 2018.  He currently makes topical films for Mail+, a website run by Associated Newspapers.

This episode contains TW for: Racism

This podcast is produced by Diversifying.io - Keep up to date on how we're changing hearts and minds on Instagram: @diversifyingio or via our website: www.diversifying.io 

Learn more about Diversifying Group

Transcript

Naomi: 0:28

Diversifying.io presents,'You can't say anything anymore'. The podcast where we bring you the latest diversity news, and in-depth, meaningful conversations about how we can make a future better for all. Hi everyone, welcome to this month's podcast. We've got a very special podcast and with two special guests. I'm the host of this podcast, my name is Naomi, and I've got a very special co-host with me today, which is my very own colleague, Rebecca, who works with me at Diversifying as the talent leads specifically to do with boards. So we've got a lot of firsts today, but first of all, let's get into introducing our guests today. So if you'd like to tell us a little bit about yourself, please.

Michael: 1:10

Well, I'm Michael Crick, I'm a journalist by profession. I've been working in television now for, what, 41 years. And I've worked for programmes such as News Night and Panorama and Channel Four News in my time as a television reporter. I now work for Mail Plus, which sounds like a porn channel, but in fact, it is a website produced by associated newspapers, and I make a film for them every week, it goes out on Wednesday lunchtime, and I make the film on Mondays and Tuesdays. And in addition to all of that I've, over the years, written a number of books, mainly on political subjects, a little bit about football. I'm a big football supporter, big fellow of Manchester United go to most of the games. And that's me.

Lameya: 2:02

Great. Shall I go next? Hi, I'm Lameya, and my pronouns are she/her/they. I'm an Education Specialist and marcomms geek and passionate about the role education can play for positive change, for social change. I actually studied law, so my background was an act of rebellion against my family medics. I did a Masters in Human Rights and International Law. I was actually half way through a mini pupillage when I had the opportunity to work for the British Council. I then kind of worked for the creative agency sector, so working with lots of clients, including the Premier League, although I'm not as much of a footy fan as probably Michael. And the V&A, and Google. And I currently head up the marketing communications team. I currently head up marketing communications at EVERFI in the UK. We're an international education company that's driving social impact through change. So working on lots of societal issues such as financial literacy and mental wellness, and yeah, focusing on the missing layer of education. And also, last but not least, I'm a newly appointed trustee at the Lyric, Hammersmith. As well as producing world class theatre, they're a charity, and they do incredible work in community engagement in creating pathways for young people to enter the arts from all backgrounds. So that's me.

Naomi: 3:19

Anyway, that's great, thank you so much for inducing yourselves. So we just start getting in right away about the questions. So, if you'd like to take it away with my co host, Rebecca as well, please.

Rebecca: 3:27

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we should probably just say to anyone kind of joining the podcast that this is for Trustee Week, and we have, as an organisation, helped Lameya and Michael to find their new positions on governing boards. And so this is where this has kind of come from, we're going to be peppering them with questions around how they've done that, and I think the first question really, for both of them, is talking us through a little bit about their journey to governance. And obviously, Lameya might say that I've sort of pushed her into it, but[laughter], we'll see. I don't know which one of you kind of want to go first, but how did you come to become on the boards of the organisations that you're on right now?

Lameya: 4:11

Well, I've been wanting to be, you know, exposed to board level for quite a while in terms of my personal development. But I guess, even though I've been approached in the past, it's about finding the right organisation which shared the right ethos and where I could feel that I can add value. And also, I think timing is a big consideration, because it is a commitment. And yeah, when Rebecca did approach me back, I think it was March this year, and she told me about, you know, the Lyric, Hammersmith, I was a little bit well, 'my background isn't in the arts', but then it turned out that in terms of what they're looking for, it was just a weird kind of venn diagram of education marketing, which is kind of my niche, you know, that's my kind of background and expertise. So, yeah, I have been exposed to working with boards in the past, you know, working in various sectors for commercial charities and governance. So, it was really interesting to kind of, you know, meet with The Lyric, the interviews actually face to face post-pandemic so it was the first time I was in a room with actual real people, so you get a proper sense of what the culture of the board is like, and the people. And yeah, I got appointed this year. And yeah, it's been quite a fast paced journey, you know, post-pandemic, the return of theatre, my social diaries, attending press events and doing governance. Yeah, it's been quite an eight month journey, I guess. But it's been really exciting to be involved.

Rebecca: 5:38

Okay, and that's obviously slightly different to you Michael, isn't it? Because you've been on the governing council for a little while now.

Michael: 5:45

Yes, it all began with me about 10 years ago when I was up doing some reporting from Oldham in Lancashire. And a colleague of mine from another company gave me a lift back into the Manchester city centre, and we got chatting about our lives. And I said, you know, 'I'd really like to do something on top of just being a television reporter, I sometimes feel being a television reporter can be a bit negative'. And, you know, I'd really like some other role in life, as well. And he said,'Oh, really?', and he didn't say anything, and that was that. And then, a few weeks later, out of the blue, I got a letter from a man called Sir John Kerr, who claimed to be the Pro Chancellor of Manchester University, saying, 'Would you be interested in joining the governing body, being a governor of Manchester University?'. And to be honest, I thought this was a mickey-take at first. I didn't actually link it to the conversation I'd had in the car with my friend Jim for about another five years. And so I went to see this guy, John Kerr, and he did exist, and we had a nice chat. And then I got interviewed by a committee, and it was very tough it was, and I didn't hear anything more for about six months. And I thought, 'well, that's the end of that', you know, they're not interested and they've been too rude not to tell me [laughs]. But in fact, they hadn't been rude at all, and suddenly, out of the blue, they said, 'We've appointed you'. So I joined the board of Manchester University in September 2012, nine years ago, and you're only allowed nine years and I've had a great time on the board. I mean, I've learned a lot about, I think, about doing the job. Although it's take me a while because there's a lot of, like there is in most walks of life, but probably more than there is in the theatre. I mean, in the theatre, you've got lovingness, well, in higher education, you've got the jargon of higher education, and just wading your way through it. I mean, people in education and in broadcasting, we're all meant to be great communicators. But when we communicate with each other, we use this ridiculous language that outsiders can never understand, so I've had to learn all of that. But it's taken me a while, but you're only allowed nine years on the board. And so coming up to the end of my nine years, the company linked with Rebecca was doing a review of our governance. And so I said,'Well, look, if you know of any other universities that need governor's, I'd like to move, you know, get a new one'. I did think of being an NHS trustee, and actually, if you're in in the NHS, you actually get paid, whereas in higher education, you don't. But I just thought,'health is not really me', whereas I really am interested in higher education. And so I've been very lucky, I applied for two or three, and the University of Kent, in fact, they confirmed it the other day. And so I'm now on the it's not called the governing body or you're not a governor, you're a council member, and it's called the Council, but it's the same thing, really. And it's the overall oversight and strategy body of the University of Kent. So I've now got to learn my way around a new university. But I think that with the background I've had and all the ways I've learned how you should and shouldn't do things and what matters and so on, I think that will help me and I like to think it would be an asset as well to the new board. But I really enjoy, I just I feel that there'll be a hole in my life without it.

Naomi: 9:33

I see, so just some of the points then is, you know, what do you both think about the value that you're adding with being a trustee? I mean, you know, what are the sort of worthwhile aspects about it? I mean, do you have anything to

Lameya: 9:52

So like, from my perspective, throughout my career, I guess it's the impact of the lack of access to arts for young people, especially within an education context. Tha's something that I've just see, you know, in my 12 year career I mean, budgets fiscals h ve been reduced, departme ts have been slashed. A lot of people feel like the arts hav been deprioritised as subject. And it's really insti utions and spaces like the L ric Hammersmith, whic have incredible initia ives, such as A Young Lyric, wh ch provides a really vital plat orm and opportunity for y ung people to access the arts. nd on a personal level, you now, I'm a first generation Ben ali immigrant, you know, I grew p in Scotland during the 90s. nd in my community, being crea ive was never seen as a career o portunity, which is why I'm part cularly inspired by The Lyric' commitment to be a sector lead nd developing careers from all backgrounds. I'm a relativ ly new trustee compared to Mi hael, you got a vast experience But, you know, in a short tim, I've already thought hat I've already found my exper ence quite rewarding, to apply m skill set as an educatio expert to a new sector, an to help their cause and supp rt with the arts. So, ye, they do world-class the tre on the stage, but they're c rtainly not like a lovey ins itution, they have quite a lo of, you know incredible ommunity engagement programm s that span lots of differen demographics. And what I've ound personally rewardin is, kind of, exchanging ideas ith new people with different sector knowledge and building a etwork. I'm being exposed to ne relationships, and making t ose kind of connections. But, ou know, I think one of the thi gs you don't necessarily real se is that, especially for a ew trustee, who's kind of start ng or considering this journ y, you know, what you do in your day to day job, and what yo do day in, day out, you m ght not recognise as skills or xpertise that are valued in othe industries. So it's been really satisfying for me to share my ba kground, and, you know, re lly geeky knowledge of educat on on the board level, a d the different national, globa campaigns I've done and engagi g young people with the commerci l sector or the charity s ctor and government, and just apply that on a governance level at the Lyric. And I th nk Michael, you brought p a really good point, you know being that role in the governa ce side of things you had to ki d of take a step back and not e tactical. Yeah, it's k nd of thinking very much at a trategic level. And, yes, there s a lot of, you know, minutes nd notes to be reading, but it'... you're not involved the de ivery, you're there to, you now, engage with different arts of the community within the organisation that you'r serving. You know, I've j st been speaking to different members, getting their opinions and, yeah, it's getting a pr per sense of what they do day in day out, and that helps feed nto, you know, your decis on making on the kind of busines operational level, I guess. add at all?

Rebecca: 12:50

Okay yeah, I feel like both you and Michael are on the same page there, where actually, it's about sort of going outside of that initial, like focus group, I guess, and finding out how the decisions that you're making are impacting the community, or the people that your organisation is serving, I think that's really important. One of the things that obviously, for us as an organisation, our social purpose and our mission is about diversity and inclusion. And I think that I was wondering what your thoughts were, both of you, around D&I or D, E and I space in your organisations and how you can help accelerate that going forwards?

Michael: 13:28

Well, I mean, diversity is a subject that, certainly in my time at Manchester, it used to come up a lot. And we would be given reams of statistics about people from different groups. And 'BAME' was obviously one of the categories that we've considered a lot and in terms of, not just students, but in terms of the academics and the professional staff. And we've been given statistics as to how the figures were going up, or in some cases going down. And one of the one of the interesting things there was, you have to be a bit of a stiff statistician at times to do this job. Because you do get, particularly if it's a really big organisation, you do get loads of statistics, and unless you've got some understanding of what statistics are significant, you know, what trend when it's going up or down should one worry about or be pleased about? Or what trend is simply within the the margins of error? So there's that problem, but we have had lots of discussions as a Board of Governors about how we improve our figuers, which never seem to move very much or they have moved up very, very slowly. And I think all one can do is, well one has to do as a board member, is obviously question the figures, hy are the figures, why do the people, why do some faculties, for instance, seem to be doing better than others? Are the particular factors at play here? What do the management think of the reasons why the figures are the way they are and the trends are the way they are? I also urge that a lot of these figures need to be broken down because within the BAME category, for example, there are lots of different groups. Some groups are doing really well and other groups aren't doing really well. If you just have it as one big category on your papers, then it can give a rather misleading picture, and you can end up that really do. And so there was lots of that kind of discussion. And the other thing I've always urged is, if we're having real difficulty with this problem of greater diversity, and particularly in certain areas, the more you can go out and actually find out, what do other people do? What are other universities, what are they doing? How are they coping with this, has everybody got the same problem here? Or is it just us? You know, let's go around, but not just around the country, actually, let's go abroad and see what people do there. And that that is, you know, I remember, I mean, I don't suppose anybody took much notice of me, but I think that for many of the problems in life, it's quite a good idea just to go and see how other people do it. And you will find, maybe in some, you know, obscure university, you've never even barely heard of, actually, they've got a very successful programme here, that brings young Asian women in or whatever, onto certain degree courses they don't normally do. And therefore, the more that universities can learn from each other, whilst at the same time, you know, obviously, they have to be competitive as well, in certain regards, the better and so that was, that's those were some of the- [phone ringing] Oh dear, my phone's gone off. I meant to turn it off before I then turned it on again, for some reason. [Phone stops ringing]. But that was my approach to it all. I mean, in terms of the board itself, we were 25 people, so it wasn't too difficult to have a broad range of people. I think we were a bit down on women, but in terms of ethnic minorities, we did rather well because Manchester's got a big Chinese population. So for quite a while on the board, we did have a Chinese member and they're just about to appoint another one, I think. And in fact, he was the owner of Manchester's best Chinese restaurant. But, you know, you can't have a representative of every group on a board, because boards have only got a certain number of people and 25, by most people's standards, will be regarded as too big.

Rebecca: 18:17

I think you raised a really interesting point. Now, obviously, Michael, you're coming at it from a slightly different angle to Lameya is, because you know, you identify as white, I'm assuming you are a male, and you have certain demographics. So you are looking at it from a place of learning and a place of allyship, I guess, and trying to make sure that everybody's included. I think, Lameya, you probably have a little bit of a slightly different take on it.

Lameya: 18:42

Yeah, I guess, I mean, I've been working in education for like, over 12 years now, and I have presented a lot at board level. And I've also worked in advertising, which is not necessarily the most diverse industry to be in, but there's great initiatives. I've been involved in BME PR-pros by PR Week, I was amended for them. So there's great initiatives taking place in the sector. But yeah, I guess it's only recently I'm seeing people that I pitch to, or present to at board level, which reflects a broader kind of diversity category. But from my perspective, I guess, with how I can support accelerating diversity and inclusion, yes, I've got my own personal story, but in terms of my job, you know, clients approach me day in day out with the comms challenge or trying to reach specific communities, and some might say,'hard to reach communities', which is a term I really dislike, as I believe you can reach any demographic, it's just about finding the right approach. I find that quite lazy as a term. And, you know, I've got quite a lot of experience and insight in it and apply this across a lot of different educational campaigns. And one of the things I found really impressive when I went for my first interview with The Lyric and I think, I kind of yeah, freaked her out, Rebecca, because I had all these stats about the demographics about Hammersmith. But my go-to thing is, you know, understand the diversity. I recognise that the Hammersmith borough has like 24% identify as white British, the national average is 70%, so there's incredibly high levels of diversity. 57% speak English as a first language, there's a high allocation of free-school meals and high pupil premium, which suggests higher levels of deprivation. So, you know, the theatre itself is kind of right on the doorstep of quite a very vibrant cultural community and, you know, it's important for the board to represent that and I think, the Lyric of Hammersmith that theatre is a charity, and they recognise the vital importance that the board is representative of the people that it serves. And it takes into consideration those different voices and experiences and viewpoints and backgrounds. So, you know, that's what they think is important in their role as a theatre. So yeah, I find there's quite a lot of diversity on the board. And there's a lot of different skill sets and experiences from a commercial kind of charity, local authority level, which, you know, it makes you stronger as a board, if you're able to see things or apply, you know, consider business decisions from different kinds of experiences and viewpoints.

Michael: 21:32

With the theatre and your local community, I think it's perhaps a lot easier to work out what you're trying to do, because really, you're putting on performances for people who live within a distance of the theatre that they can come from. And not just Hammersmith, but neighbouring boroughs, I suppose. Whereas with a much more complex organisation, like a university, if you take the case of Manchester or Kent, you're serving the needs of the locality in some ways, and trying to reflect the population of the locality. But of course, people come from not just all over the country to go to university, and therefore you have to reflect the diversity of your country. But we also have a vast number of overseas students, about 25-30% of overseas students, and your board needs to represent that fact as well, and it can get tricky at times. And so you're not just representing, I mean, I talked about the Chinese community in Manchester, but of course, we had, at that university when I left, about 20%, I think Chinese students, and it's the way figures were going for the current year, it's likely to be even higher. So you've got to reflect that in your board. But then, of course, another problem I identify with, is that the Chinese students we have in the university, I suspect, because who comes to university is likely to be very much charged or controlled by the Chinese authorities. we haven't got the diversity amongst them that we might have if we were to go to China and choose them one by one. In other words, we would have you know, the there are probably no Uyghurs amongst the people who come to Manchester University, there's probably no Tibetans. And yet, ideally there ought to be. And what does one do about that? I mean, the answer is, there's not much one can do about it. But it is a tricky situation. And, you know, to what extent are you trying to reflect your community or your country or the wider world?

Naomi: 23:53

On that note, I think that's a good time for us to take a break. So listeners, we'll be back right after the break.

Bame Recruitment: 23:59

Diversifying is a purpose-led career platform that is proud to promote opportunities for all. Check out our website for job opportunities, at www.diversifying.io. And don't forget to follow us on social media.

Naomi: 24:16

And we are back after the break. So moving forward then, from that, I hear a lot of complexities between the differences in both of your industries and the differences between the audiences in those. What advice would you give for people who are thinking about becoming a trustee, you know, both of you explained a multitude of different backgrounds, and coming from different experiences professionally, what advice would you give to people about this?

Lameya: 24:47

I would say do your homework, do your research and due diligence, understand the organisation's vision, their culture and commitment, and make sure it's the right fit for you. Take your time, it's important to make sure the organisation, you know, is aligned to what you're passionate about and what you have to offer. Because like I said, it is you know, it's a time commitment if you want to be an effective trustee. And when it comes to interview, just remember, it's a two way street, you know, ask, 'do they have a strategy'? I found in my time so many boards in the past where discussions can just end up completely tactical, and they don't really think about long term strategy. And that's an important role for trustees to play. And don't be afraid to ask about the strategy or business plan, you know, go and dig deeper. I think just coming on because that kind of knowledge, you know, it just shows that you're passionate. But yeah, do that, do that kind of research. And also just think about your network and the connections that you can make and what value that you can bring to the party to share. Other than that, just, good luck, you know, I find the whole experience incredibly rewarding. In my official three month appointment it's been really great for my confidence, it's been really good for being exposed to different sectors. I mean, outside, you know, I work with lots of different sectors and my day to day job, but doing it in a different environment, in a different context. Yeah and, you know, it's important to kind of, I'm really passionate about diversity and inclusion. We live in a diverse world, but I think there's a lot of focus in places that's on representation, and they tend to ignore the inclusion part, and having a diverse board that offers different experiences, that's reflective of society and the community that you serve, you know, can only enhance the business strategy. And, yeah, I think the positive things I'm seeing is when I speak to other people, there just seems to be a lot more diversity taking place, and that in the last few years of having those kinds of voices, you know, be involved in that kind of governance level.

Michael: 27:11

My advice would be, well I agree with Lameya, do your homework and find out what kind of institution you're joining. And I agree with, you know, probably don't say too much to start with, just sort of soak it all in. But I would say, don't be frightened to ask what some people might think are the most stupid questions. Don't be frightened to ask if you don't understand. I mean, you have a duty really, because you need to know what you need. And there are certain legal obligations on trustees and board members, and we do have a legal obligation to understand what is going on. And therefore we are entitled to ask what may appear to the other board members to be stupid questions, or, in many cases, they won't appear to be stupid questions, they'll be saying to you afterwards, 'when are you having the tea break? I'm glad you asked that question, Michael! I should have asked it really, but I didn't think I should, you know, I've just been a bit frightened. So I'm glad you did'. So, do ask the question. Because, you know, often it's the obvious question, nobody else wants to ask it. And it's important they're asked, and you know, are you going to lose face with your fellow board members? But hey, that's not the end of the world, and in some cases, they'll be glad of it. And, you know,m you've got to, in terms of the research you do when you join the board, or before you join the board, that research process I think has got to be maintained. And you've got to constantly renew your relationships with people within the organisation, people you can talk to on the shop floor or whatever, around the place to really find out what's going on, because you need a constant refreshment of information, feeding into, as a lay board member, so that you are not just reliant on the executives. And I think, you know, you've got to think about the philosophy, wider boards, have lay members, why do they have lay trustees, people from outside who are independent of the management, and the idea is that it not only brings experience from your particular area, my case from communications and the media and so on and in the world of government and politics, but also it introduces an independent eye, an independent way of looking at things, and elements of challenge and questioning and so on. And I often think, you know, have my questions, made a difference? And there may have been one or two cases where they have done. But in a way, that doesn't matter because what it is, is that when the managers, the executives of the organisations that we are trustees for, are making their decisions, they should be thinking, 'How can I explain this? How do I justify what I'm doing here, what decision I'm about to make? How do I justify that to my board members?' And so it's not just the questions that you ask in a board meeting that matter, it's the questions you might ask that matter. They've got to be thinking in their minds, 'Well, supposing Michael's... what's he going to ask about this? Yeah, he's gonna ask about that. How do I answer that? Hmm, well, maybe the policy is not quite right'. You know, the benefit of this independent non-executive process that we have now in most major institutions in this country, and certainly within within the corporate sector as well, the philosophy of that is all part of the processes that go on to try and ensure that each of these institutions is better run, and that it makes the best use of its money and resources, and it obeys a whole range of laws and regulations from, you know, the laws relating to fraud and all of that, to the laws on health and safety and the environment and on equality. And it's our job to sort of, you know, keep the management on the straight and narrow, keep ensuring that they're working to the best of their abilities. And yet, while doing so, not in an aggressive, hostile manner, but in a helpful, courteous, but at times, firm and firm manner and a challenging manner.

Naomi: 31:50

Thank you. Thank you so much. It sounds honestly, like a very colourful experience. But yeah, that's all that we have got time for today. I just wanted to thank you, Rebecca, again for co-hosting with me. And it's obvious that you've clearly built a beautiful relationship with both of you and things. And I just wanted to thank both of you for your time today. Any last words that you'd like to say at all to our listeners?

Lameya: 32:22

I don't think I have an explanation. Just you know, if you're interested in, you know, being a trustee there's a lot of resources out there. And just yeah, like I said before, take your time because it is a time commitment. And make sure you find the right organisation for you, because, you know, it's clear that Michael's passionate about higher education, and that's your passion, boy. Mine is, you know, I didn't necessarily think it was the theatre and the arts, but mine is education and reaching young people through the arts is something that I'm really passionate about. And yeah, take your time to find the right fit.

Naomi: 33:08

Actually, let me just ask before you finish, where can people find you? Can they find you on LinkedIn at all? Or any other online medias?

Lameya: 33:18

I am on various, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Twitter, I can share those details with you. My name is really difficult to spell and pronounce, being Bengali, but yeah, it's Lameya Chaudhury, @lameyachaudhury on both.

Naomi: 33:33

I'll put it in the description of the podcast as well. And Michael?

Michael: 33:38

Lameya, you're right, I am passionate about higher education. And there's nothing I love more than sitting next to some academic, in a subject that I've probably never heard of, and getting them to explain what their research is, which is often quite difficult. If it's a obscure area of science, I'd say go for it. And I think, I don't know whether this is true, but I suspect it is, is that trusteeships and non-executive roles are generally done by older people, you know, people in their sort of 40s, 50s, 60s. Certainly, that's the experience in Manchester, whereas younger people, because they're starting out in their careers, and they really need to make an impact in their existing jobs, and they may be bringing up families as well, perhaps don't have time for that sort of thing. And, you know, that is another area in which certainly I think probably University boards are deficient in that they do have two or three young people as represented as the Students Union, and then the rest, everybody else is 40 and above. And maybe if more people in their 20s and 30s could go for this kind of thing, the better and it would give a whole new perspective on the world concern. So, go for it, and more people should apply, and I'd strongly encourage them to do so, and be happy to talk to anybody who's interested in doing it, certainly in the field of higher education.

Naomi: 35:05

Great, where can people contact you, Michael?

Michael: 35:07

Well, I'm on Twitter and on LinkedIn. Actually, I don't look at my Linkedin as much as I should do. And I'm also on Facebook.

Naomi: 35:17

Is it just Michael Crick?

Michael: 35:19

Well, I think if you look up Michael Crick on LinkedIn and Facebook, because it's a fairly uncommon name, it should be quite easy to find me. And the Twitter handle is@michaellcrick and quite a lot of people contact me through that.

Rebecca: 35:36

You definitely engage more I think on your Twitter, Michael, than you do on any other social platform.

Michael: 35:41

You can't do everything can you?

Naomi: 35:44

Oh, thank you so much for both of you and thank you again, Rebecca for co-hosting and helped me out with this podcast. And we'll speak to you, listeners, in the next episode.

Bame Recruitment: 35:58

Thanks for listening to You Can't Say Anything Anymore, a podcast by Diversifying.io. If you like our show and want to know more, check out our website and sign up for our newsletter at www.diversifying.io, or please leave us a review on iTunes. Join us next time as we explore more diversity News.