Strung Out Episode 136. EXPLORING THE LABYRINTH.

What do you think of when you hear the word labyrinth?   Perhaps the confusing lair where the minotaur dwelled?  That was actually a maze, which was constructed to keep the minotaur confused and confined.  Actually, a labyrinth is something that is meant to set one free.   According to the Labyrinth Society:
A labyrinth is a meandering path, often unicursal, with a singular path leading to a center. Labyrinths are an ancient archetype dating back 4,000 years or more, used symbolically, as a walking meditation, choreographed dance, or site of rituals and ceremony, among other things. Labyrinths are tools for personal, psychological and spiritual transformation, also thought to enhance right-brain activity. Labyrinths evoke metaphor, sacred geometry, spiritual pilgrimage, religious practice, mindfulness, environmental art, and community building.
Dan Raven is a master Labyrinth builder (when he is not in other roles of masseuse, or the "Grandpa of the Pottawatomie Park Dog Friendly Play Zone) and has pursued the complexities and varieties of labyrinths across the United States and in Europe.  Dan has built many labyrinths around the Chicago area over 30  years and shares with us the interesting circumstances that construction and meeting people who build and use them present  Take a walk with us as we  Explore the Labyrinth on STRUNG OUT.

Transcript

Strung Out Episode 136. EXPLORING THE LABYRINTH.

[00:00:00] Martin McCormack: Glad to have you with us on STRUNG OUT. Have you ever come across a labyrinth, and I'm not talking about the movie that had David Bowie , but those sort of puzzles on the ground that you can see, or if you go into a cathedral or a church, they're not a maze, but a labyrinth.

[00:00:25] I have with me Dan Raven, who is a Master Labyrinth builder and is a member of the Labyrinth Society. We are going to devote this whole podcast into exploring what labyrinths are about, where they come from, the people that make them, and why they play an important role in our psyche, even now in the 21st century. 

[00:00:52] Dan, welcome to STRUNG OUT. Glad to have you here. 

[00:00:55] Dan Raven: Glad to be here. Marty.

[00:00:57] Martin McCormack: I did a little bit of research prior to [00:01:00] you coming on the podcast and labyrinths are really old.

[00:01:04] Dan Raven: The one that you mentioned cathedrals, churches. There's one in Chartres Cathedral, about an hour southeast of Paris, that was probably put in the floor around 1201. John James, who was a architect master architect has determined that there was a fire in Chartres in 1196. The town burnt down, the cathedral burnt down, and when they rebuilt it John James has determined there was nine different architects, nine different stone cutters, and that the most skilled of those, he gave color names to, gave color names to all of them. From Scarlet down to Olive. Scarlet because, he didn't want to confuse it. If later we find records of, people and he determined the nine stone masons by the complexity of their cut and their measure.

[00:01:49] Martin McCormack: Wow. And these are the same stone masons, I'm assuming that would build the cathedral itself? 

[00:01:54] Dan Raven: Yeah. They would cut it and what we would call architects would be the headstone mason. He [00:02:00] determined that the same guy did the floor plan in 1196 for the new cathedral, laid the labyrinth in 1201 and then did the rose window that you walk in from the main entrance. Probably 1216. 

[00:02:12] Martin McCormack: Labyrinths are older though than the Middle Ages, right? 

[00:02:16] Dan Raven: Oh yeah, that's, that pattern is called an 11 a cathedral or a Chartres pattern. And the other much older is a seven circuit or a Crete, the island of Crete off of Greece or a brain. It kinda looks like a brain. And that's probably 4,500 years old, which is really simple to draw. You could almost doodle and come up with that , I can show you two minutes how to draw that. 

[00:02:41] Martin McCormack: Do you think this was some sort of prehistoric thing that got picked up eventually by the Greeks? Is it something that's been around since recorded time? Can you find this on a cave or something, a sort of labyrinth? How far back [00:03:00] do you know? 

[00:03:00] Dan Raven: There's other simpler drawings, but yes, prehistoric just means before we have written records. And so these are things that existed and do exist. Some of 'em are still there and there's other stone formations, but a difference between a labyrinth and a maze is a maze has dead ends and wrong choices. Do I go left or right at the fork? And one of those you'll wind up getting into a dead end and turn around where a labyrinth, once you start in, at the entrance, you will walk the entire pattern. And wind up at the center similar to the idea of your intestines. Such you start at one end at your mouth and it will continue all the way through your intestines until the end of it. 

[00:03:37] Martin McCormack: Is that what they based this on? 

[00:03:39] Dan Raven: I've heard people say that could be based on the intestines. If you look at a person's intestines after they've, been, deceased and study that. Or a labyrinth is a metaphor for life. If you're walking with somebody on a big labyrinth you're standing, you're going next to 'em in a path, and all of a sudden one of you turn and you're almost at opposite sides and you will wind up getting back [00:04:00] to closer together.

[00:04:01] And a metaphor for life that once you, when you start in a labyrinth, we'll talk about the Chartres labyrinth, the one I'm most familiar with. You start in and if you think the center is your goal, the first you go in a quarter away, make a quarter loop back and forth, and then you're right next, right outside the center, walking around it, and oh, I'm almost there.

[00:04:21] Before you , wind up in the center, you will walk that entire labyrinth and including the last couple of loops, you're at the far side. On the outside, all the way around, and then all the way back. And then you're headed right toward the center and there's one more little detour up, a quarter turning back.

[00:04:38] So certainly a metaphor for life. Anything you think you're gonna do, and it'll be simple. There's another another step to it. 

[00:04:44] Martin McCormack: I wanna go back to what you were saying about mazes versus labyrinths. Here in the Midwest we have our corn mazes and mazes are a little more like adversity, right? Where labyrinths are little more [00:05:00] meditative?

[00:05:00] Dan Raven: I've used the term that a maze is meant to get you lost in a labyrinth is meant to help you find yourself. I think I came up with that. Maybe somebody else said it before, yeah. A maze has multiple choices. They talk about the sewer system in Chicago being labryinthian. It's all tied together, but it's not really a labyrinth in this respect. In this definition, it's a walking meditative tool. Most of them are large outdoor by large anywhere from 24 to 60. There's one in Elgin that's 96 feet across. But it's a walking meditative tool. And since you don't have to worry about crossing a street or cars coming at you because it's a contained area, it's a safe place to walk and you can just look at your feet and just take a question with you.

[00:05:42] A serious question, do I go to McDonald's or Burger King on the way home? Those are both bad choices in case you're curious. But how do I deal with this situation, a relationship. I'm in a situation at work, some serious question and take that with you and see what happens as you walk.

[00:05:58] I've had a number of [00:06:00] experiences of my own that, set me up to believe in this. And I'm sure I could have come up with some of these ideas, sitting in an easy chair , in the living room. But they occurred while I was walking a labyrinth, so. 

[00:06:11] Martin McCormack: Do you think that labyrinths themselves, the way that they are constructed then are imbued with some sort of metaphysical power, or do you think it's just the act of meditating itself that creates that answer to a problem?

[00:06:27] Dan Raven: That's an interesting question. I've never quite heard that phrased that way. It's not magic, this is not voodoo. Labyrinths are a meditative tool. They're an assistance, they're not a religion. I wanna point that out.

[00:06:37] They're an adjunct to a number of religions. I've built 'em on Catholic monasteries. I've built 'em on Lutheran churches and other religions. And I also built 'em for the, for some Druids and some Wiccans, different group, each of those . And they see the value of the power of opening yourself up to what might happen.

[00:06:56] Open yourself up to thought and see what comes to you. Some people get [00:07:00] thoughts like this in the shower or getting a massage or giving a massage or, driving down the country road or oh, that'll work. Let me try that. , one of those, aha moments. And it's not a guarantee that it's gonna work. It's a possibility. 

[00:07:13] Martin McCormack: You built a labyrinth not too far from where we're having this interview over at the Benedictine mother house that's on Ridge Avenue behind it. And I was driving my daughter to school today, thinking about this podcast, and I thought, I want to ask Dan about the idea of labyrinths being very important for the urban setting, because they do draw you into a meditative space, obviously, but they're compact in some ways too. I know you can have huge ones, but it seems like they're perfect for a big city. 

[00:07:48] Dan Raven: I want to correct your term on Mother House. There was a time when they called Saint Scholastica the mother house. St. Benedict and his sister Saints Scholastica, some people say they were twins came up with the idea of [00:08:00] monasteries. Benedict started monasteries 1500 years ago and they're monasteries for both men and women. But it's a monastery and it's only women that live there. 7430 North Ridge is the address.

[00:08:12] The nuns and sisters there are very happy to have you come and walk it. There's a sign at the north driveway that says, Benedictine Sisters of Chicago, you're welcome to come in there. Please don't ring a doorbell. Leave your dog home. Come during the daylight. They're being very careful, but they're happy to have people come in. It's straight back, about 500 feet. It's in an urban setting behind the gardens. That one is about 60 feet across. The one in Chartres Cathedral is 42.3 feet across, it's inlaid stone.

[00:08:42] Different colors of stone in Chartres Cathedral. One at Saint Scholastica is six tons of cobblestone street bricks, and then 25 cubic yards of sand. The bricks are the line that you stay between and you're walking on the sand. 

[00:08:57] Martin McCormack: From where we are sitting, [00:09:00] how many labyrinths are you aware of?

[00:09:03] Dan Raven: If we're gonna count the canvas ones in my house, we're gonna get a big number. But outdoor permanent ones there's one on 29th and Wabash I built a couple of months ago. There's another one of 51st and Troop. I was part of-- longer story. There's one at 97th in Costner, a couple blocks south of Christ Hospital. These are all outdoor, permanent. Welcome to the public. There's a couple permanent ones in Evanston, in Elgin and in lot of the northern suburbs.

[00:09:28] If you go in the Labyrinth Society, there's a labyrinth locator, and then you can put in your zip code and how many miles you want to travel from there, and it'll give you a list of places that are available. And if you're counting canvas, there's two in my garage, one of each of the major patterns. 

[00:09:44] Martin McCormack: You specialize in making the Chartres type of labyrinth. If somebody came to you and said, yeah, I want the what is it Crete?

[00:09:51] Dan Raven: I do both. I mentioned I have a canvas of each. Robert Ferre, who lived in St. Louis, and his painting partner Judy Hopen [00:10:00] painted these 36 foot Chartres labyrinths. They're three pieces of heavy canvas. It's about 110 pounds. And I've had one of those you need a space that's 36 feet across without poles in the way.

[00:10:12] So I've done that at a number of gymnasiums and and church halls. And then my wife before I met her, had painted a 27 foot seven circuit Crete labyrinth that's in the garage. And that's one. piece. Again, it needs this 27 foot space, to open up. I've done ''em in spray paint in the driveway of churches or chalked them.

[00:10:31] The Labyrinth Society has a gathering every fall, The Wisdom of the Elders. I've gone to a number of years, and take a box of sidewalk chalk, and draw the pattern out, and then leave the chalk there and say, take a walk, leave a prayer. And by the end of the weekend the whole thing is full of my son's in Afghanistan, my daughter's expecting in two months. It's a very personal experience and to come and see so many other people's expression. I've got pictures you can't see on the podcast, but the [00:11:00] experience of doing that. And like I say, I've spray painted them on the grass for, a weekend or a parking lot for an event. 

[00:11:06] Martin McCormack: Was it your wife that got you into this or did you guys just find each other with a common love of labyrinths? 

[00:11:14] Dan Raven: I knew about labyrinths. I'd built a couple before I met her. We met at a Labyrinth lecture down on Transitions Bookstore when it was on North Avenue. I taught school and had a painting business.

[00:11:25] I'm retired from everything now of that level. I'm still doing Labyrinth and massage. I'm 77, and hope to be 78 in a couple of weeks here. But I was going through a surgery, a car accident ,being sued, a woman on a motorcycle cut in front of me. She was injured.

[00:11:40] No witnesses. I'm in my work truck. She's hurt. She sued, settled. I was going through a divorce from my first wife. All of those things were going on at once. So three major things. My first wife's car broke down in North Evanston and she called me and ask if I'd come and drive her car down to the mechanic because I wouldn't get as [00:12:00] flustered. So I did that and I was driving up Clark Street in Evanston, Chicago Avenue in Evanston. And cut in the grass at Lake Street Church is a seven and 11 circuit Chartres labyrinth just cut in the grass. No stones, somebody had painted the lines and then they ran the lawnmower through the path. That's how consistent it is that you can drive a lawnmower through there. Anyways, I went back a couple of days later and I was the labyrinth feeling sorry for myself. And like I say, my first wife had moved out woe is me and what am I gonna do?. This is, like I say, the first couple of weeks of our separation, we'd each gotten, I don't know if I had a divorce lawyer by that point, but she contacted and it's like just total uncertainty. And as I was walking the labyrinth, I saw this young couple. Here's this young guy and he's got this beautiful woman on his arm and they're walking. It's a Saturday afternoon and I'm feeling sorry for myself. Here's this beautiful girl with him and I don't have a beautiful girl. And then a homeless guy went by and everything he's got is in this big black, bag under his arm.

[00:12:58] And I'm thinking, oh, [00:13:00] don't have a girl hanging on my arm. Don't have a beautiful woman partner. Not sleeping under the viaduct. Not such a bad deal after all. Put a perspective on my woe is me. I've got a house, I can take a shower whenever I want. I've got food. I've got more clothes.

[00:13:15] Not sleeping under the viaduct. That perspective was like, oh, life for not so bad after all. How I met my wife, there was a talk Neil Harris was giving down at Transitions Bookstore when it was on North Avenue, near Chicago River. And I painted, taught school, stopped and picked up some massage oil, got home, took a shower head, hot food in front of me, opened the book and to see who's in town. Those flyers from Transitions and, oh, there's a lecture on labyrinths. I should go to that. When is that? Oh, it's tonight. It's in 20 minutes! It's 10 after seven, it's gonna start at 7:30.

[00:13:50] And I'm in my, soft clothes after having a shower. I said, I gotta go, but I'll be late. It takes half hour, 40 minutes to get, I gotta go. Put the food up in the microwave so the dog wouldn't get it. [00:14:00] Put my jacket on. Went out the door. It was a snowy day in March. I almost turned around thinking, I'm not gonna get there. 

[00:14:05] Seven, eight people. Seven plus Neil showed up at the whole thing. I met at that point a woman with blonde Norwegian hair. She was one of the seven participants and didn't think much more about it.

[00:14:17] We said hello, and six months later Sinsinawa, Wisconsin, a Dominican retreat out near Dubuque, Iowa. Lauren Artis is doing the weekend workshop and said, find somebody to talk to. Not the person you drove out here with. They know your story. Somebody new to talk to. This woman came over to me with bright red hair ,bib overalls with grass stains on both knees, and said, I met you once before.

[00:14:41] Turns out she was the same Norwegian blonde at Neil Harris's talk. She had almost turned around from Neil's talk going in from DeKalb. But she said I'm almost there and I really want to go. And so she showed up. And then we both wound up at Sinsinawa with Lauren's weekend, about 35, 40 people all together.[00:15:00]

[00:15:00] And so we walk, walked outside on their 1400 acres at Sinsinawa and I said, so what do you want to talk about? She said, I have made the decision to get divorced. And I said, congratulations. She said, congratulations? Nobody says, congratulations. I said you're getting what you need at this point. I said, it certainly wasn't what you want when you got married or five years ago, or even a year ago, but if it's what you need, congratulations. 

[00:15:24] So saying congratulations was a, an interesting comment. And the red hair was a statement of freedom. I'm sure, breaking loose. 

[00:15:31] Martin McCormack: So you guys came together through a shared love of labyrinths, but also a shared life experience. 

[00:15:38] Dan Raven: It was March of 99, the first time, and then six months or a year go by, one of us would be doing a project. I helped her cut a couple of trees in her backyard that were, rubbing on the house and needed to be taken down. And did a couple of labyrinths together in one place or another. 

[00:15:51] One or two are my friends that wanted some and tried the internet dating. This internet dating was like, what's your checklist or [00:16:00] criteria, and I said, a sense of humor. If we're moving that sofa over there, they're not afraid to grab the other end. And if I say, turn it this way, they'll do that. I probably move more furniture than most people have sat on. But the idea of and a sense of humor, I like to. and labyrinths and if they'd look, and I, if they'd like a massage, I said, wow.

[00:16:19] So I'm driving home, 20 minutes later and I'm counting on my finger. I said, oh, wait a minute. That's Franca. Why don't I call her? And it's been most of a year since I talked to her in DeKalb and I called the number I had and the guy answered the phone. Her husband bought the house.

[00:16:32] And so it was either her husband or her oldest son and said, oh, she's not at this phone number anymore. She's now in Oak Park. So 45 minutes away, instead of an hour and a half away. And so I called that number and so we talked for a couple of hours and gradually a friendship built up again. Yeah, it was over the common idea of labyrinth, but the common experience of divorce.

[00:16:52] Martin McCormack: Let's take a little break here and we're gonna come back to continue talking to Dan Raven, all about [00:17:00] the life-affirming aspects of labyrinths. You're listening to STRUNG OUT.

[00:17:09] We're back with Dan Raven. We are talking about the the amazing thing about labyrinths and what a metaphor they are or a symbol of life. And , I am guessing that you got married on a Labyrinth . 

[00:17:24] Dan Raven: Yes. In fact, I got married on the Labyrinth I built, that's a half a mile from right here at Saint Scholastica's. First Labyrinth I built was an Oracle, Arizona on a friend's property. A woman I went to massage school with. Sue .And there's a story there. Her husband had died over New Year's of one year, and I was getting ready for another surgery and went down to Arizona for a week. This was after I was divorced.

[00:17:47] Okay. And I was telling that friend I want to build a labyrinth, and Sue's she's also a spiritual person. You don't have to be spiritual to walk a labyrinth, those are not necessarily together, right? Don't feel scared away, if you don't think of yourself as [00:18:00] spiritual. Don't feel that a labyrinth is not for you.

[00:18:03] I wanted to build someplace. I'd walked a couple and where I was active here in Chicago, there was not enough space anywhere that I knew about. And so in Oracle, Arizona, about 50 miles outside of Tucson, up on the backside of Mount Lemon, we built this with two 10 year olds and a 12 year old sister, Nick and Eric, the 10 year old twins, and Samantha, their 12 year old sister, and that's about 50, 60 feet. I didn't really measure the numbers up there. , and the stones are all indigenous to the 15 acres of property.

[00:18:33] Sue's husband had died the year before over New Year's and so that I was out there on New Year's, with synchronistic, she has a guest house and that's where I was. and the kids thought this was fun to move stones around and actually do something. And she said, this is interesting.

[00:18:47] They've never seen anything completed in two days. Sue came up to see what it was and she said, oh, I said, it's finished. And she, and this is about 75 feet up in elevation.

[00:18:58] And I said I was [00:19:00] gonna go up and get cleaned up. I just finished putting the rounding out the turns and stuff and I was just gonna go get my cleaned up and a little food and then I was gonna bring my drum up and walk it and dedicate it with my drum. And she said, okay. So I did that and we met on the path coming back, half hour, 45 minutes later she said, what is that?

[00:19:19] I said it's a labyrinth. I sent you Lauren's book. You read the book. We've talked about it on the phone. She rolled up her sleeves. She said her whole body was goose bumps. That was for her first experience of walking this, and her question is, how do I live here? Her husband had passed away and it really was his desire to live in the southwest.

[00:19:38] It's the dry heat. The dry air was good for his arthritis. Her question mutated over a period of six weeks to, where do I live? As she walked it once, twice, three times a day. It was her place to go and walk, 15 acres in the sight of a mountain. There wasn't really much of a distraction, but walking on this labyrinth laid out in the horse pasture, it was interesting cuz the [00:20:00] horses in general will walk on the same path back and forth.

[00:20:02] And wear a tread in a pasture . And we set it on the flat area and it happened to be where they walked. During that six to eight weeks when she walked it every day, they walked around the labyrinth. They went around it, and when she made her decision to move back here to Illinois, she moved out near Galena in the farmland.

[00:20:21] When she was stopped walking it, the horses went back through that path. . And just kicked stones. 

[00:20:26] Martin McCormack: The question was reached the labyrinth's use was over.

[00:20:29] Dan Raven: Real sand paintings, done for a single person, a single patient, if you would. And when they're done Tibetans or Navajo, either one that both do sand paintings, will shake the cloth and destroy the pattern. . Because the pattern it's served its purpose.

[00:20:44] Martin McCormack: Yet we have these labyrinths that are around that have been as we started this podcast for hundreds of years. And let's get into the way you're describing these various labyrinths, already the listener has an understanding that [00:21:00] materials are inconsequential. in making a labyrinth, I'm assuming. 

[00:21:05] Dan Raven: I've done 'em with chalk in a parking lot, St. Gertrude's, a couple of blocks, some mile south of here, Clark and Devon, a little bit south and east of that for a number of years, we would chalk a pattern, a Chartres labyrinth in their parking lot. And then the canned goods from the food drive over for Thanksgiving would be put on the lines.

[00:21:22] Martin McCormack: So how do you start a labyrinth? Do you start from the outside or do you go from the inside out? Is there a method? 

[00:21:29] Dan Raven: Oh, there's definitely a method. And now if I do one, I window chain, half inch length of chain that are like, run up a window, goes up and down with the counterweight. Hundred feet long, 50 feet long, whatever you need.

[00:21:41] And key rings, I lay out at the length of each path. So Chartres' labyrinth would be 42 foot 0.3 feet overall. Rings are 17 and a half inches. So I put a key ring there and then I can put a spray paint can attached to that. And so it's like [00:22:00] using a compass when you're a kid with a pencil in the, and then draw around the point of the compass. It's hard to show on the podcast. 

[00:22:05] Martin McCormack: I encourage the listener to go and Google labyrinths so you can see what Dan's talking about because it is very precise. But sounds to me like you even do freehand labyrinths. 

[00:22:17] Dan Raven: I've done freehand. I've done one in the woods outside my father's cabin in Oslo, Norway. And there's seven trees in that labyrinth. And so we had to deviate the path a little bit. It's a seven circuit labyrinth, and we brought stones up from the fjord and laid 'em on the lines. But there's seven living trees that are still in that path. They're tall enough that you can walk under the branches without getting poked in the face.

[00:22:40] But they can either be incredibly precise. I've worked with Robert Ferre I mentioned. Cut it into the stone, into concrete, and then paint the lines. The two inch lines get painted and those are incredibly precise. Or much more freehand, a seven circuit. And it goes with what the spirit moves. If it's gonna be there a [00:23:00] very long time. I like to be a very more precise, but not to the point of, an eighth of an inch or a quarter inch.

[00:23:05] Martin McCormack: So I'm assuming the one at the Benedictine monastery on Ridge Avenue is fairly precise and permanent.

[00:23:11] Dan Raven: Oh, it's permanent. I built that in June in 1999. I did 90% of that work myself over a period of the whole month of June. And that is 60 feet across. Chartres cathedral is 42.3 feet, which is a millionth the polar diameter of the earth. The polar diameter's a little smaller than the equator diameter around, but yes, they knew a long time ago that the world was round.

[00:23:37] They knew how big a round it was. But the idea of that 42.3 feet is precise on that respect, and that's cut stone. . And then there's a little mortar in between, but that's permanent in the floor. I was there on the 800th anniversary according to John James of the Feast of the Assumption. August the 15th of 2001. And according to John James calculations, that's 800 years. So that's the [00:24:00] same stone we're walking on the, there's been a couple of repairs where for whatever reason something needed to be, but there's a quarry not far from Chartres where all of those stones came from for the whole cathedral.

[00:24:12] Martin McCormack: We're gonna take a little break, but I love that idea walking where other people walked. We're talking with Dan Raven, who is an expert on labyrinths and has made several in his lifetime, you're listening to STRUNG OUT.

[00:24:29] We're back with Dan Raven. Dan, in the amount of time that we have I want to ask you to give the listeners an accurate number of labyrinths that you have made.

[00:24:40] Dan Raven: Permanent ones here in Chicago are, like I say, at St. Scholasticas, 7430 North Ridge. There's one in 97th in Kostner, on the Kostner Avenue side 51st and Troop., right in that area of Precious Blood Reconciliation Center. Couple of others that I'm blanking on in the moment that are permanent outdoor, many [00:25:00] chalked and painted in the grass for a weekend or an event I've taken a number of times, went to Northeastern Illinois University for the Wisdom of the Elders gathering. Dan Creeley did TEAM conference, teaching experimental and adventurous methods, TEAM.

[00:25:13] And for a couple of years we did 'em in masking tape on the gym floor. And then when I came into stewardship of these seven circuits and an 11 circuit each in canvas. I lay that out takes up 15 or 20 minutes to lay out as opposed to several hours with masking tape. It's much simpler to do, but really I enjoy the actual building of them. In addition to walking it, it's a separate experience. 

[00:25:35] Martin McCormack: You've described several poignant experiences that not only you've had, but friends have had. , but I'd like to hear in the remaining amount of time just for the listener's sake to inspire them to not only visit a labyrinth, but to toy with the idea of building one themselves.

[00:25:50] Is there any other experiences that you have had in the creation of these that stand out in your memory that occurred to people or to [00:26:00] yourself where you're like, wow, I'm locking into something bigger than myself. 

[00:26:05] Dan Raven: Oh, that's a powerful statement. The idea of seeing something completed is one thing I mentioned down in Oracle, Arizona, but the idea of seeing something completed, we did the one I mentioned, the 51st and Troop back in the Precious Blood Reconciliation Center.

[00:26:18] Nuns and priest both that live there and work there. And they wanted to have a healing place and most of their clients, mothers, primarily mothers, but some fathers are people who sons have either been killed or done the killing. Or been in violence of other kind.

[00:26:35] Their kids are in prison. And I built it with them, mostly the kids who were at risk, and the idea of seeing something done positive was a very powerful experience for them. The idea of doing something constructive as opposed to destructive. It's easier to throw a pop bottle and watch it smash, but it's much more creative to see something built.

[00:26:58] And that's part of what they're [00:27:00] doing there. They're teaching 'em carpentry skills and they're teaching 'em woodworking skills, other electrical skills silk screening t-shirts. And more positive aspects to life. But it was fun to build that with this group of. and see it come together and have the pride of they did this.

[00:27:17] And so there's a very definite aspect of people building something and owning it. 

[00:27:22] In 2001 we were in a, can't think of the name of the air base being decommissioned out in California. And there must have been 20 labyrinths of various kinds, spray painted and candles, and canvas laid out and chalk in a parking lot.

[00:27:36] And we're convinced that more helicopters flew overhead. That and low-flying jets, taking photos. So that was fascinating to that idea of recommitting the property, recommitting the land.

[00:27:49] Did a couple up on the Potawatomi Indian Reservation in Northern Michigan. Did one in one in chalk and one in spray paint. And then they brought stones and put 'em on the spray paint and [00:28:00] the second one they took the grandfathers, the stones that had been in the sweat lodge. So the spirituality the connectedness that these people saw, the spirituality of the people saw in the the overlap. And I think it's much more interesting the overlap of different religions as opposed to this one, and that we do this and you do that.

[00:28:19] My perception of God is not different than your perception of God. My perception, my vocabulary does not limit the Almighty, the Wakantakan, the Lakota's Sioux word for the Almighty, the all powerful, the Creator, the God, the image, you, the Lord, father, whatever you want to call it.

[00:28:34] Martin McCormack: I like to say we're all in the same canoe, but we just have different paddles, but we're trying to get to the same place. That's the way I look at religion and our quest for understanding God or the universe. 

[00:28:45] I'm looking at this Salt River, Pima Maricopa Indian community, I've seen that Great seal many a time when I've been driving in Phoenix. And lo and behold, what is it? It is a labyrinth. 

[00:28:56] Dan Raven: It's a Seven Circuit Labyrinth, which is a man in a maze. [00:29:00] Yeah. And it's really not a man, and it's not a maze. It's a person and not a man, but it's a person on their journey through life. It's wonderful and a twist and turns to get to where we're going. 

[00:29:09] Martin McCormack: You listeners, if you wanna find out more about Labyrinths, is there anywhere people should go that you can suggest?

[00:29:17] Dan Raven: There's a Labyrinth society? Go on Google or if you do Dan, Raven and Labyrinth, several of these images will pop up.

[00:29:23] Martin McCormack: So it's Dan Raven like the bird, and the word labyrinth, and you're gonna find it. So thank you , Dan, and thank you again listeners. We will pick this up next week. You've been listening to STRUNG OUT. Bye-bye.