Strung Out Episode 220: THE GREAT LIZ CARROLL-CHICAGO IRISH FIDDLE MASTER (PART ONE)

In this episode of 'Strung Out,' host Martin Laurence McCormack sits down with violin virtuoso and Irish music legend Liz Carroll. The conversation spans Liz's illustrious career, her roots in Chicago, and her deep connection to Irish musical traditions. Liz shares personal anecdotes, discusses her journey from learning violin under Sister Francine to winning the All-Ireland Fiddle Championship, and her experiences with the Irish Musicians Association. Featuring delightful humor and live musical performances, this episode is a must-watch for fans of traditional Irish music and those curious about the life of one of its most captivating figures.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer, and musician, Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

[00:00:16] Hey, welcome to Strung Out, and I have with me a living legend. Amazing. Amazing, you'd put it that way. Liz Carroll, and all Ireland fiddle champion back in the day, but back in the day. Yeah. Really, uh, a pillar of, uh, the Irish musical community around the world, but a Chicagoan that, that stayed in Chicago.

[00:00:43] Yeah. You're not like Michael Flatley. You don't have a castle? No. That we know of? Let's not. Let's not go there. Five seconds in? Okay. I'll have to tell you, Mike. No castle. No castle. Play us something. Um, you're also a neighborhood. Gal here. You used to live on Morse Avenue. I used to live on Morse Avenue. I know, just about a block away We were just saying.

[00:01:10] That's awesome. I loved being here. This at Rogers Park is a great neighborhood. Yeah. Great neighborhood. Yeah. Yeah, we enjoyed the heck out of it. Well, it's, it's, uh, it's the third most diverse neighborhood now in the United States. Wow, I'm not surprised. I mean, you can, yeah. Any kind of food you want. We're not here to talk about food.

[00:01:30] Maybe on the foodie section we will take Liz for one of those, but let's Let's have you play one of ours. Well, here, I'll just play a little one. What's it called? Well, I think I have to play this one. Now, there's one problem. Marty, Marty, have you had fiddlers before? Yeah, is that going to oscillate too much?

[00:01:48] If that fan is on, this will sound really strange. Well, let's turn it off. I don't know if people out there know this about Anya. Do you know about this? But There's something about the fiddle string and when I play, in fact, I should catch it before.

[00:02:05] The horribleness. All right. And when you, yeah, when it's off, then it's, yeah, that's normal. All right. Excellent. Well, I'll play this one and then I'll tell you the name of it after. Very good. That is surreal.

[00:03:08] Um, Um.

[00:03:38] Sweet. Very nice. So that's called Morse Avenue. Morse Avenue. Morse Avenue. You had good times here. This was when you were, you were putting some fancy free days when you were normal. Yeah. Yeah. This was, yeah, this was the first place to take off, you know, from the parents house and have an apartment with a bunch of crazy gals.

[00:03:59] Where did you grow up? I'm a Southsider. You're a Southsider. I am. Yeah. Yeah. We grew up, uh, well, a few places. We moved a few times, but. Mostly, like, grammar school growing up was Visitation Parish, which was 55th and, uh, 55th and Halstead area, and we, we grew up, we lived on the boulevard there, Garfield Boulevard.

[00:04:22] Oh, wow. Yeah. And eventually, that was great. We loved Visitation, and it was great fun, and it was there that there was a nun who was teaching violin, which was very rare. In the Catholic schools. Yeah, on the south side to have anybody teaching violin. So you'd have. And you'd have maybe a, a choir, although they were kind of strange back in the day, you know, they, they, they had a boy's choir, but they didn't have a girl's choir.

[00:04:51] They had a band, but the girls weren't allowed in it. It was a lot of really, really strange stuff, but it started to change while I was maybe getting in around sixth and seventh grade. But there was a nun there, Sister Francine, who taught violin. And, like I say, it was really, it was, uh, strange that that, uh, that existed.

[00:05:12] Was she the one that got you kind of? Yeah, there, I, I started on the violin with her. Sister Francine. I'll be darned. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be darned. Yeah, and I mean, I, there was lots of encouragement. Yeah. My, my, uh, mom's father played the fiddle back in Ireland. Yeah. And my dad played the accordion and, um, and funny enough, I mean, it's always been my, my story of my, my little bit of fate where, uh, I wanted the piano.

[00:05:41] And in fact, when we moved into this apartment building on the boulevard, there was a piano, but my parents told the woman to take that with you, take it with you, the kids will be thumping on it. We can't have that. And so when I wanted one, I was going to take that from Sister Francine, and um, they bought an old upright piano, couldn't get it up the stairs, couldn't get it up the front stairs, couldn't get it up the back stairs, but the same nun taught the fiddle.

[00:06:14] And my mom, especially, in my memory, is that she said, uh, You know, grandpa plays the fiddle. You can take the fiddle with you. And if you don't like it in three months, you can stop. Yeah. So I didn't want it, didn't want it. But as soon as it arrived in my house, I was like in love. You know, it's like, ah, you felt a treasure.

[00:06:40] Total kinship. I, I absolutely loved it. And she held off for a while, you know. Again, strange teaching times. And I know she wasn't doing Suzuki. So she was wanting to teach by notes. But she also wouldn't give you a fiddle right to begin with. So you got, you know, and I don't know if this happens with the guitar players or anybody else.

[00:07:01] I'm to learn positions. But I got a stick. First I got a stick, and it was for me to put my fingers on, and it had little holes for you, you know, so then you practice that for a week. And then, there was another week went by, next thing you got another stick to go between here and here. Oh, you do? That's cool.

[00:07:22] Yeah, about, about three weeks in, then I got fiddled. But I, I do think much like, much like, um, I always think of like basketball players and so, you know, you get a ball and, and it can really be that the football doesn't do it for you, but there's something about a basketball or there's something about a tennis ball where you just, There's something you're attracted to.

[00:07:45] And as soon as I had the violin, it was like, I didn't think about the piano anymore. I was like, that was it. Okay. I'm happy. This is good. And what was, uh, sister Francine teaching you? Was it like, uh, just old, you know? Yeah, it was, it was, you know, it was just how does, how to play the violin. Okay. Yeah. I think I was doing okay for her.

[00:08:06] Um mm-Hmm. . I wasn't great at reading the music. I think that's because I had been playing the accordion at home, like my dad's accordion and stuff, and I really loved that. And, um, and so I would be more wanting to listen to what I was being taught than to learn about reading it. So I was, I would get caught up.

[00:08:28] Yeah. Every once in a while where she'd kind of go, yeah, and I'd go, could you just play it? So, but that became even more interesting as time went by because the other thing about being in my, um, parents household was that they didn't listen to anything really, but Maybe the radio, you know, I know Elvis and all of that was going on, but they knew Irish music and I'll tell you what we didn't have was any classical.

[00:08:59] So there was no classical music of any sort. So I, I think, um, if I had to do it again, Although, I couldn't swear by it, because certainly I could have done it all these years, and I didn't. But, if I had known what I was learning, I think it would have helped. Yeah, but, yeah. I didn't. I know that, I, I, but, you're, it's very traditional in the way that you had a good ear.

[00:09:29] So you were able to pick it up. Yeah. You know, and that's, so many of the Irish musicians, Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like something you, you kind of have to have in a way to get there's something about the format. You just don't sit down with the music stands and all sit as a group. You learn pretty quickly that somehow you've got to absorb this.

[00:09:55] And, and, and get it under your fingers and get it in your head. Now, your parents, they were from Ireland directly. Did they meet over there? No, they met here. Met here in Chicago. Okay. And, uh, what county are they? Well, my dad is from County Offaly. Okay. Yeah, he grew up right I have to throw the ball at you.

[00:10:17] Yeah, yeah, there you go. I have no idea what's going to be the repercussions. It's all live. It's great. That's what I like about this. I was so limber. Good job, Capers. Alright, you are dismissed. So your dad's from Offaly, and where's your mom? No, my mom's Limerick. Limerick? Yeah. Oh, is that right? Now, is he from the city?

[00:10:42] Is he from the county? I don't know. City, I think. Oh, right, right. Oh, yeah. Fitzgerald. And, uh, but, uh, It's a big name, actually. Yeah. In Limerick. Yes. Yeah. There's, um, you know, our friend, uh, Marty Fahey et al. Oh, yeah. You know, he's, loves art and all of that. Yeah. And, um, and works with a collection here in Chicago.

[00:11:05] We must talk about that at some point. Yeah. But, um, yeah, we, we, we did a, we did a little project, and, now I'm not sure if he was a, the Earl of Glynn, what was he, the something, the Knight of Glynn. Was it Fitzgerald? Okay. Yeah. Yeah, it's a very weird. I mean they go back to like, uh, yeah, Italy. Oh, yeah Yeah, they have a monkey on their crest and supposedly they were saved by a monkey, you know Which is really good for Brian Fitzgerald guys when you He'd be proud But uh So, you know, it's so cool.

[00:11:45] You, you hear the, you know, the Irish music was, that was pre WPNA, I'm assuming, right, or, or when your parents, I mean, you know, the Polish national, where they'd have the Irish hour, you know, playing and all that stuff, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it was just So they met, you know, they met here, I know my mom came in 1949.

[00:12:04] Okay. And, um, and he, my dad came in 1951, but they met here at a dance. Nice. Yeah. And, uh, yeah. Are your parents still with us or no? They're not. Okay. I remember meeting them. Do you remember that? During the recording of Bowen Reed, you introduced them to us in the parking lot of a studio that's no longer there.

[00:12:25] Right. They all moved and it's now a condo. Yeah. But you know, the halls, they still echoes with your Ha, ha, ha, ha. But your parents were delightful. They were real Oh, that's great. They were, they were like what I call old country Irish in their demeanor and, and their, you know, you kind of, with that, I didn't know you had it, but it makes total sense to me that you had it, you know, so close in your family with the accordion and the fiddle.

[00:12:53] Yeah. But all these musicians And I came along into the Chicago scene much later than you did, but I was grateful for the fact that there were all these guys right off the boat, these women right off the boat that were You, you tucked in with a really nice group of people. Yeah. You know, in, in the likes of Yeah.

[00:13:16] Mary McDonough? I was, I was seeing when the fan, when the fan was on, I was gonna say, Oh, you're gonna sound just like Mary. Okay. They were, they were, um, as nice when I first met them. Some of them I met a little bit later. I don't know why I didn't. Maybe because Bertie and Tom were Northsiders. And Mary was too, but Mary was very involved with the Southside musicians.

[00:13:44] Where's your ball? Um, oh I see it. Yeah. There you go. There you go. That was too fast. She gets a credit on the show now. I need to send it much further. Uh, You know, and it was Jimmy, uh, Jimmy McGreevy. Johnny McGreevy. Johnny McGreevy, I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I remember him. I correct you there now because there is a Jimmy McGreevy.

[00:14:04] Is there? That's an accordion player. The accordion player. Yeah. Okay. And then, uh, and then Horst Cain. Yes. This is Jimmy Cain's dad. Jimmy Cain, who's still, you know, but I remember, uh, you know, but all these guys, uh, it was like a formidable force of, uh, authentic, you know, you were, you were learning by ear.

[00:14:26] Right. But it was a real, you know, it was a real mix when you think about it. So there's, much like us, Mary McDonagh, her, her parents were from Ireland. Jim Donnelly, I remember her dad. Yeah. And, uh, a fiddle player. Um, you know, Johnny McGreevy was from Ireland. Also from Chicago, you know, and so it was really it's there was a lot I think that They knew about us as being children of immigrants as well, so that they were incredibly kind.

[00:14:57] Yeah Yeah, I think you know The way I look at it is like when you look at somebody like Cus Teehan who you know, he was taught by traveling Musician and carrier. Right, right. I mean, the pedigree, you know, just because we're on this side of the pond, you know, we were instilled with a pedigree that was that, learning by ear.

[00:15:19] Yeah. You know, and in fact, I have a humorous, just a very humorous, quick anecdote about Cus T. And he sat down with 78s, and he would sit, and he would say, you know, I want you to listen to this Cus, you know. And I'd sit down, and I'd have my little tape recorder in there with Cus. We'd talk all the way through the damn thing.

[00:15:39] Yeah. I'd look up and I'd tell the bitches, the bitches, yeah. And you'd be like, ah. And so, you know, you'd get back and you'd try to piece this stuff out, but Right. But, uh, you know, it was He was like a lesson in like, um, about like, like language and how it affects music, you know, what is when he talked, uh, you know, you did very good imitation there, but if I were going to critique it, I would say you have to go way higher and way lower.

[00:16:06] Oh, yeah. That's to all go back to back to back to back. Yes, yes. Nonstop. Yeah. But he really, he. He really could run that gamut of expression in his, in his music. In the early days with Cuz and friends, I remember driving back home again with Brian sitting in the back seat, it was my car, it was like a, you know, Dodge Omni, so tiny little thing, you know, and, uh, Cuz is talking away and I'm like driving, I'm like looking for Fitzgerald and I'm like, break into the conversation and he's like smacked out of sleep just I mean Those kind of things.

[00:16:47] Yeah, but let me ask you this. Um Where then did you make the jump from Sister Francine into picking up Irish tunes? Was this a natural progression? Was it one person? It absolutely happened, like, immediately. Okay. So, I mean, as, uh, as that, you know, kid that was playing a little bit of accordion at home. I was doing Irish dancing, or I started dancing when I was eight with the Denny's.

[00:17:12] But my folks used to go to Hanley's House of Happiness on 79th Street, um, for the Irish radio show. And they would bring us, there was only my brother and myself. And I think unlike a lot of the big Irish families, Um, they could do that. Yeah. Like a lot of my, my cousins are families of six, and sometimes a lot of them, and sometimes twelve.

[00:17:36] From town, yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. So my parents would bring us, speaking of falling asleep, we'd be like, you know, coming home and my parents would be singing in the car on the way home. But those radio shows were quite fun and a lot of times they'd have a dancing school. I think they were wise back in the day.

[00:17:56] Because you would kind of get a crowd, you know, because the aunts and the uncles would come and see the, uh, Are you going to throw? Here we go. I'll throw this time. Woo! Well, good job, Katie. You know, so you'd, you'd have like a dance that goes, I think I, I, I probably danced on that show, you know, at some point, even as an eight year old.

[00:18:15] And were you, uh, you know, were your parents like, uh, hey, you know, you're Irish, and, uh, you've got a No, no, it was really, really natural. I mean, Good. You know, because they had their own brothers and sisters in the city, everything was Irish. The neighborhood was Irish. We went to Irish, like I said, I started the Irish dancing before the fiddle.

[00:18:37] So we were doing Irish dancing. Your friends are doing Irish dancing. It just really was coming out of a Okay. And, and so it really just kind of, uh, there was no press that we're Irish or any of that. It's, it was just very natural. This is what we do if you are at school and with your friends, that's what you do.

[00:18:58] Right. And when you're here, we're off to do this song. Right. Yeah. So it was pretty, pretty natural. And the classical music, I mean, as soon as I got that fiddle, I started figuring out my tunes from the accordion. The tunes that were in my head, you know, so immediately, just like right, I'm trying to find stuff.

[00:19:16] Yeah. Just trying to find stuff. And the funny thing is that, and I always thought this was amusing. So we, we were with it. in the Irish dancing, but we weren't going to meetings of the Irish musicians yet. So they never, they never did that when I was playing the accordion. But as soon as I started on the fiddle, they went, let's find the Irish musicians.

[00:19:38] The Poultice was around. They were called the Irish Musicians Association that started in the 50s. Was that just a Chicago based thing, or was that universal? It was, it wasn't universal, it was the United States. Just the U. S.? Yeah. So you have people like, you know, like, when you think about tunewriters like Ed Reavy and, like, there were a whole bunch of people from New York, Philadelphia.

[00:20:02] Cleveland I think was in it, Chicago was in it. Yeah, and all these people kind of gathered together. Was it strictly traditional or was it like Strictly trad. So you didn't have like the Irish show bands or any of that? No I mean those were totally going on and everything. You knew this isn't what needed saving.

[00:20:21] Ha ha ha. Well let's have you play another song before you go. Sure. Capers, uh, throws the ball at you again. You can play ball while I, keepers will, I'll play this down. We'll see how you do with this one. Then we'll take just a little break after this. Sure. Well, maybe a jig for you. Sounds great. I love how your feet, uh, I have to keep myself comfortable.

[00:20:43] I love, I love.

[00:21:00] Um, uh,

[00:21:54] Great, I'm telling you, get the dog upstairs, that's not the name of the song, folks, but uh, what is it? It's a good name for it. Yeah, it's a good name. Get the dog. You can add this to that book. Gabriel is gonna start barking if I get Oh, okay. Well, we'll keep her here. She's, she's behaving now. We'll just leave the ball.

[00:22:11] We'll leave the ball here. . Um, what's the name of that one? Oh, well I was telling you about, my husband's name is Charles Lacey and that's Lacey's Jake. It's a little tune I wrote for him. Awesome. That's Well, what a romantic gesture. I have

[00:22:30] we have with Liz. Carol and we are on strung out, and we'll be back after this little break. Hey, wanna show your support of Martin's artist endeavors? Buy me a coffee as an online site that makes supporting Marty easy. In just a few taps, you can make a payment of any amount. And no account is needed. You can also decide to become an ongoing supporter.

[00:22:54] Go to martinmccormack. com and click on the words, support. Let's help Martin keep it all.

[00:23:08] Wanted to be a nuisance for, for Liz here. That's a challenge. So here we are, uh, Back again with Liz Carroll and we're talking about her, uh, journey as an Irish musician. I know you, so you got into the Irish Musicians Association and that probably kind of solidified the traditional, uh, aspect of things for you, right?

[00:23:35] Yeah, so that we're going to go into a rock band and No, no, I, I, I, I knew what I liked. Yeah, I think, um, you know, I mean, I've, uh, gone into different little projects every once in a while. Right. Uh, where somebody likes the sound or the feel of, uh, of, uh, My style of playing, and then I, I will go ahead and give that a go.

[00:23:58] Is it totally comfortable? I don't know. I'm just such a funny daddy. I'm just pretty, pretty trad, and that's all there is to it. Or at least within myself, yeah. But, yeah. So what did you It's been it. What did you win the All Ireland then? What, uh, when did that all, how did that Tell us a little bit about that, you know.

[00:24:16] Well, you know, we didn't really know that this thing existed, but it had existed since like 1952. So that organization you talked about before, which wasn't in Chicago, eventually all of the Irish musicians started to become branches of that group called Cultus Kiltorian. Um, so yeah, um, but I didn't know that there was a competition involved, uh, until there was a fellow.

[00:24:42] That was in Chicago, because sometimes musicians will, it's so great when a, when a musician comes and if they live for a summer or they live for a couple of years in Chicago. the boost that it gives the music. Cause it's a whole different group of tunes, or maybe it's just the style of how they play. So a fella came in to town.

[00:25:04] His name was Patty Gavin, who was from Balbriggan, just north of Dublin. And you know, he was just like majorly influential to people like Jimmy Keene, Marty Fahey, their accordion style. Uh, this was, he played, he could play a two row accordion. But his favorite and best thing was playing the three row accordion.

[00:25:27] Huh? Very, very, the lightness, the drive of his music was just very influential. Plus he was a young guy and he was new to town and we loved it. We, every time he was playing, we were like learning this whole basket of tunes. You know, that were coming from, you know, his, his experiences and things that he loved.

[00:25:50] And he said, you should go, you should go compete in the All Ireland. And I mean, you know, I really had maybe competed twice in Chicago at something called the Flack Hill. Yeah. Like one time I was the only one in it. I think I was in it one other time. Uh, and um, so now it's like 1973 and I went over to compete in this thing, uh, with, with Patty's help.

[00:26:18] Patty was like saying, Oh, don't go too fast. That was his advice. Good advice. Don't take off. Yeah. Don't take off running. So I held on to the reins. I got second that year. I went, and I mean, now you're at a flat kill. So this is, uh, It's really good, good fun. And you have to have been to a flop. Have you been to a flop?

[00:26:39] Have you been to one over in Ireland? No. Oh. If they, if you get a chance, uh, you know, they'll pick a town and the town is completely taken up with this event. Every pub has Irish music, everybody's playing on the streets. There's competitions. That's secondary, you know, so this is this is great You know, I mean for somebody that loves Irish music to be able to have your fiddle in your case Walk down the street.

[00:27:06] Here's some tunes, you know, and then just go can I join and everybody goes and winks and says yeah Yeah, and then you jump in with these strangers and sometimes they ended up being like friends for life, right? Yeah, so I was so glad that um, you know That Patty was like, you should go. Because after doing it one year, I mean, my parents were happy to go to Ireland because this is a chance to see their families.

[00:27:29] Did they come up to see you? I'm sure they did. Yeah, yeah, we had different relatives that popped in for these affairs. Oh, fun. Yeah. Cool. So what did, did you go back, obviously you entered in again. I entered in again. I got first the next time. And, uh, and then I went into the senior fiddle, which was the next year when I was 18, and then I got first that year.

[00:27:51] Thank God. Very stressful. Uh, that's what it is. Self inflicted, really. I mean, it's just self inflicted. It's difficult. Yeah, you've gone, you've gone a long way. And you want, you just have this moment for people to get it. Did that change your trajectory of your whole life? Life in the sense that at that point where you're like, you know what this is my career.

[00:28:13] This is my calling I really wanted to do it, but I never thought you could I mean, yeah all those musicians We talked about before your your your audience is gonna love all these names Right as we say the test will be later Yeah, but none of those people did Irish music for a living. No, they all had a job So I was you know, I went to college You know, I was coming out as a, as a grammar school, grade school teacher, and I never thought that I could do it.

[00:28:43] But, yeah, along the way, um, there were different people, you know, around the country that kind of, you know, would know that accolade of that you won the All Ireland Senior Federal. Right. And what it ended up meaning was that you got to play with really great players. So Mick Maloney was like the first one, like an unknown player.

[00:29:10] Me, a person named Mick Maloney, like, wrote a letter and said, Would you come to the Bicentennial Festival on the Mall in Washington, D. C.? So this is 1976. And, uh, got there, you know, all these people from New York. I mean, I was starting to run into some of these people just because of the Irish dancing as well.

[00:29:33] The Irish dancing was not going to be my thing. So this is why you just kind of go, yeah, no, yeah, there's nothing, nothing ever to get big headed about because you're really good at one thing and really rubbish at another one. So dancing, I loved it. I could keep time, but I didn't look good at doing it, but my dance in school loved Irish music.

[00:29:56] I didn't hate dancers. Oh yeah. And I, and I got to go and play for their choreographies and. I would end up playing for championships at these big, big events, you know, around the country. Did Maloney, uh, take you under his wing then, or were you, did you end up with Greenfields? I did, yeah. So I, yeah, so there was that group called the Greenfields.

[00:30:17] Greenfields of America, which is a tune, but, uh, It is a tune. And it was, uh, and it was the first kind of, uh, Like real trad power band on the side of the pond. I almost can't imagine that, that it, that it was. And yet, when I look around that time, aside from people playing in a pub and a lot of times, like the Irish musicians that we knew, well, I mean, there was a few, I mean, I'm sure that, um, Sean McGuire was doing concerts and maybe Sean McGuire and Joe Burke were doing concerts, but if they wanted to make a living doing that, like Joe Burke would be.

[00:30:55] You know, in some pub for now, and this was a special because St. Louis had that great McGurk's. And this is what I'm thinking off the top of my head. There was also a great one, Tommy something pub in New York, where you could get a gig playing for two months or three months. Right. Andy McGann played at pubs like that, you know, where they really got the Irish music.

[00:31:17] But that was, but sometimes they were sitting there with a guitar player who was a singer. So that you were, you were making everybody happy. But you transcended, uh, into, uh, uh, a concert center. Well, that's what the Greenfields, it seems to me, did. Yeah, they They, he just went And grabbed this bunch of people and just went, we're going to, we're going to go on the road.

[00:31:43] He, he had this way of, you know, I mean, he was in that academic world, but he was also in the arts world. And so, you know, he got funding for the Greenfields America to be able to do a tour. I was on the first two of those. And we had, like I say, we had songs, we had dancing with Michael Flatley dancing of all people.

[00:32:05] And, um, And we have stories and musings, you know, as we were, as we did these concerts. So we, it was, it was pretty special. And when I know that when we went to do the Milwaukee Irish Fest. I think we might have been like a band from the United States, you know, we thought that was okay until like we saw Jay Dunn and we went, wait a minute, that's a band.

[00:32:32] What we are is a variety show. So I think of the Greenfields as being a very lovely, most like those cultist tours where they would bring out that year's winners of the senior fiddle player would come on the senior accordion, young people, and there was dancing, there was singing. But we were that, and we were based in America.

[00:32:52] And did you feel as an Irish American that you were kind of a second fiddle, no pun intended, uh, to the Irish musicians? Uh hmm. You, I, I, do you have more to say there? No, I mean, I'm gonna just leave it hanging out there. This question, it hanging there because I don't wanna, I I I'm just curious because, you know, the way you, you described to Dan.

[00:33:18] Well, I mean, like I say, that was, that was sitting down and figuring out how to make the music great. Yeah. With arranging. Right. And we weren't doing that, you know. Yeah. Like, Mick could sing and I could pick up my fiddle and just do what I thought. And that was okay with Mick. And that was okay with all of us on stage.

[00:33:40] Right. So there wasn't like, okay, I'm going to play an E and I'm going to hold it for four measures and then I'm going to start doing this with the bow, you know, there was no chat about that. It was that very relaxed, do what you think, right. And everybody was okay with that, which, which has its own, you know, place.

[00:33:59] Right. Because it really kind of comes from, yeah. You know, our upbringing, right, in that way. Oh, it was, yeah, there was no such thing as But, I also, I also get that about, like, seeing, like, uh, you know, Dadanon or Alton or Cheap Dance, Cheap Dance. Cheap Dance? Yes. I mean, Cheap Dance, like Planksteen, Bounty Band, all of them.

[00:34:18] And there was a method, there was That orchestral kind of, uh, yeah, they mapped it out attitude. Yeah. You know, switch back. Oh, like mapping it out. , we, we did later on, we mapped out. I mean, uh, I think, I think part of that though, uh, I mean, you know, with us, uh, we were in, but we were out and, uh. Part of that, I think, was being like the Irish American kind of feeling.

[00:34:46] I remember, you know, when you said like people carrying jobs, I remember Mary McDonough always saying, Oh, Marty. There's just too many. There's just too many. Yeah. In the Irish, you know? Right. And, uh, you know, and so, you know, you, like, you think, well, that's not, you know, to be a musician. Right. So how, but they were, you know, to answer your question, yeah, I think I could have had a, a, a, you know, I don't know if it would be like a chip on the shoulder, just kind of going, oh, maybe less than than the Irish.

[00:35:17] But they were always so welcoming. Yeah. So my trips to Ireland were always, you're in it, come on, come on to the pub, come on over here, come on and join this session. So welcoming. So I think if anybody had had any attitude, maybe there would have been something to feel, but there wasn't. But the only, but I will just add this, and I don't know if this would be true in your world, but I do think that we were a little less reluctant, or were a little reluctant at times.

[00:35:49] To play the other things we were hearing so we were so concerned with being Traditional. Yeah. And I think that did probably come from comments along the way I remember being over in Ireland one time and just, you know, breezing by some people who happened to be talking to me because I was going to be competing and they were like, Oh, she's bluegrass.

[00:36:13] So there was a little bit of like, you know, I didn't want to stand out. I really so much wanted to be part of the scene. Yeah. And I mean, for us. Part of the, the, the thing was that Brian learned mandolin from Jethro Burns, and so that was Bluegrass. Oh, yes, and so there was this weird work, but I I had cousins that ran Cultus and Mayo and I remember even years later.

[00:36:44] I've been playing you over there in there Okay, well, you know, hey not playing Irish music. No, you know, I want you to play one more and we're gonna, we're gonna sink out of this podcast into another one because there's too much rich history here with Liz Carroll, so we're going to do a double header. Um, but that we can, we can, uh, we can about this to some degree, because I think it is interesting being an Irish American.

[00:37:16] Yeah. And learning the traditional. Yeah. But then doubly interesting coming from Chicago. Yeah. With so much of it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. So, you kind of get this feeling like, uh, you know, but, I, I can't say I, I never was like really, you know, uh, looked down upon or anything about it. But do you feel, because of you and others, uh, I think, wouldn't it be fair to say that you elevated Irish music from being, like, just a type of folk music into being a type of music like jazz, into a category that, and the second part of that question, before you play, is doesn't that open the door then to people around the world who may not be from Ireland, Ireland?

[00:38:14] You know? Yeah. Playing Irish music traditionally could probably, I mean, has it changed? Has it embellished it? I, yeah, I think that there's lots of, uh, openness now, too, that you can be any kind of background. If you like this music, you can either add a touch for, from where you're coming outside of it, or you can be in it and branch out.

[00:38:40] But there might be a little more of a, of a Yeah, people might be a little tougher on somebody who's in it, who branches out, much like Bob Dylan. Right. You get used to this and then somebody just did that. Whereas, there'd be maybe a little bit more easygoing if you're coming from another genre and now you come in here.

[00:39:02] There's a big welcome, I think, for that person. But it's funny, you know, I always think that Yeah, you know, even though I was saying I wouldn't have had a chip on the shoulder because people were really nice, but I think I really did not want to stand out and then realize that people were doing albums which were definitely pulled from bluegrass, let's say.

[00:39:28] And I was like, Yeah, but we did that in our basement, you know, years ago, but we would never have done an album of it and, uh, you know, go back to that Mick Maloney. He said something one time. He says, you know, he says the difference is, he says, is that that that person in Ireland, whatever they do, they're still Irish.

[00:39:47] And I was like, okay, you're saying something very interesting there. But people all over play Irish music now. And so really you do. You go to Japan and there's fiddle players and people are doing the Cary set. And they're terrific. They're terrific players. And it's so funny being from Chicago. So I think this is more an age thing now.

[00:40:09] Right, right. That I go, Oh, I can't believe that somebody from Italy is playing. But of course, They can't believe somebody from Chicago is playing it. And probably the people in Ireland are like, What has happened? Why are people in Russia playing Irish music? Well, it's interesting. As we look around, we just go, Oh, that's impossible.

[00:40:25] How are they doing it? And we're really off the beaten path. Well, probably just geographically, but there's all kinds of reasons. We had so much immigration since the United States. Right. And we've got a really good excuse. And, you know, but, but, you know, I always look at Chicago and say, Oh, well, yeah, she's a good Wasn't for that compendium of music that O'Neill did, where the hell would we be?

[00:40:51] Yeah. You know, to some degree. Yes. And, uh, and, and so many, so many talented musicians either, uh, came out of Chicago like yourself, uh, you know, the, the late Dennis Cahill. Yes. Uh, you know, Martin Hayes for a while, hung around here. I mean, you know, you could go on and on and Michael Flatley, you know, he did, yeah.

[00:41:12] And, and, you know, speaking of Martin there, you know, I, I, I, He is just very wonderful. Someday you have to have him on your Oh, Martin Fahey you're talking about, or No, Martin Hayes. Oh, I would love to have Martin Hayes. They're both verbose. But I was going to say that Martin Hayes said something, exactly what you were saying, that instead of it being Irish music, the idea of it just being music.

[00:41:40] And to get to a certain point where it just, is what it is. But you know, you talk about an individual style and an individual take on the music that can so pare it back and yet be so effective. You know, there you, there you have it in one piece. Yeah. And I think the difference between like, uh, Polish folk music And like Irish music, is that Irish music, maybe because of cultists, maybe just because of the way, but I do think it became a form of music that's accepted like swing, jazz, rock and roll.

[00:42:15] It's in that pantheon. Yeah. Bluegrass, you know, that sort of stuff, country. Uh, you know, but I mean, but in, But it's also kind of locked in the sense that you do have the tradition that keeps it, you know, within the rails. Yeah, there's so many branches of it. You know, we said the word Milwaukee there. Yeah.

[00:42:39] I mean, if you walk through there, or if you take that ride, you know that sky ride that goes straight through it? I mean, when you think about what's Irish, there's just so much there. So you can really hear the very trad, lone fiddle player, sadly not giving enough attention there. Um, I've heard some incredible musicians and they're like in a small little tent and there's a rock band over here and there's a rock band over there and you can barely, I'm like, Ooh, this is not the spot for them.

[00:43:10] I almost wish. We had something up there, or they had something, listen to me, we, they had something up there that's like Ravinia, where you actually have an indoor theater, because some music deserves the indoors. Some music deserves a city and audience that doesn't leave. And After this trot case, I'll tell you some of my ideas, because I think we're on the same wavelength with that.

[00:43:37] It needs that. It does need that. But, again Right going along that ride. It's just so wonderful because you have you know You have the drinking song you have the rebel songs are still out there and that Really wanting to kind of cheer for Ireland You know you have the Bing Crosby Irish eyes are smiling gang right and you know And then you have like really kind of kind of powerful powerful Irish groups and Scottish groups and pipes You And, I mean, you could find, you could find, I guess maybe, maybe the envelope anymore that they're all under might more, more correctly be called Celtic these days.

[00:44:17] Yeah, I, I, you know, I think Celtic is probably the right thing, but, um, I think Celtic says, go ahead. Yes, Celtic's a little more forgiving. I think what I like about the fact that, like, Irish music is now in that area is because then it's, it's, it's sacrosanct. In the sense that it's not Not to be toyed with, you know, like my, I mean, Switchback, we toyed with it, you know, and, and, and Martin Hayes with the Midnight Gordon there, that's, you know, all that kind of crazy stuff, toyed.

[00:44:54] You don't want to do that unless there is the traditional music, because, you know, it's, that's, but. We digress. Let's hear one more from Liz, and then I'm going to bring her back to round two. So Liz Carroll on the Irish String. Yeah, maybe something a little bit slower. So it's a little bit of toying, but it's not much toying.

[00:45:19] I think it's, I think it's kind of a pretty tune, so here we go. Alright.

[00:47:07] That's beautiful, what's that one called? It's called Lovely Pastel. Lovely Pastel. Yeah. It feels that way too. Well, we're going to end this podcast. Uh, I want to thank Liz for, Liz Carroll for being on it. I want to thank Capers the Wonder Dog for catching and retrieving and making her part of the show. Uh, we're going to be back with a second podcast and I'm going to just continue along because there's a lot to, uh, A lot to unpack in that, the, the, the musical history of Liz Carroll.

[00:47:40] Thanks for watching, and we'll see you guys soon. Bye bye. Thank you. Thanks, Marty. Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit martinmccormack. com. While there, sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

[00:48:07] There's no sense at all. The swan song was a part of the deal, was no good call. Giving no choice, giving no ste