Strung Out Episode 221:THE GREAT LIZ CARROLL-CHICAGO IRISH FIDDLE MASTER (PART TWO)

 Join us on this episode of Strung Out, hosted by the versatile artist Martin Lawrence McCormack, as we continue our conversation with the extraordinary Irish fiddler Liz Carroll. Liz opens up about her incredible 60-year journey in the traditional Irish music scene, the fascinating stories behind her compositions, and her experiences playing unique instruments. We delve into her creative process, the evolution of Irish music, and the inspiring tales of folk melodies turning into beloved tunes. Don't miss the heartfelt discussion about the changing landscape of traditional music and the sage advice Liz offers to aspiring musicians. Tune in for an engaging and melodic exploration of life through the strings of a fiddle.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer, and musician, Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

[00:00:16] Hey, welcome. Glad to have you with us, and this is part two of an interview with Liz Carroll, and Liz Carroll is, uh, one of the figureheads in the Irish music traditional world. Fiddling world, um, you know, been around for a long time now that you're, now you're like, uh, you're kind of the elder. Old? Old? I don't want to say old, but like, you're, you know, the wise.

[00:00:44] I have been at it, I, you know, the sage. The sage, yeah. So how many years now do you think that you have? That I've been playing? Yeah. Oh, well you know, I'm coming up on 60 years of playing. 60 years? Always second to one. Uh, maybe 59 years. 59 years. Yeah. So maybe just a year off from stage. I was nine. You know, 60.

[00:01:04] Well, you know. Yeah. But it is amazing. It's amazing. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, starting with something that I, uh, I, you know, she was, Liz was saying, how can, you know, you don't have enough for a second podcast. Oh, yeah. There we go. So, give it to me. Well, let me see. I always liked this tune. I got a call one time from Mark Howard with the Trinity Irish Dancers and he wanted a dashing tune for a dancer to come up from behind the curtain and just speed onto the stage.

[00:01:39] And it was nice. Uh, just hearing him say that, I think I was just sitting there and I started writing the first notes of this right away. So this is a tune called Sevens, which is the name of the first step of the riff.

[00:02:44] Oh lordy,

[00:03:08] did I say it's early? Hanging on for dear life there. Is this early? Yes it is. It's a little early. Yes. Hopefully a forgiving audience. I always ask people playing, uh, what, describe their instrument. Where, what's the, what's the pedigree on this thing? Well, this one is, um, this is a fiddle that I got, uh, many years ago now.

[00:03:34] Um, but it's, it's made by a fellow named, uh, Raymond Schreier. And he is from Canada. And I just love it. I, I, I've had a couple of fiddles before this. And, um, I was playing one time at a session in, uh, Evanston. And, uh, a great guy there said to, said to me, Liz, he says, are you trying to be quiet? He said, I can't hear you.

[00:03:57] At all. And I think there is, um, you know, I think people used to have pretty awful fiddles. Pretty quiet fiddles, for sure. Yeah. If not awful, if not cheap. And I think more and more of the players, as time has gone on, are getting better and better at violins. So, I had um, yeah, I had, like I say, a fiddle early on, and then I had, which was a German fiddle, and then I had a French fiddle.

[00:04:26] And, um, Raymond Schreier, his brother is Pierre Schreier, who's a, in fact, all of them are fantastic, um, well, Canadian fiddle players. So they play, they play coup de croix, but they also play, you know, just wonderful, almost like, um, country fiddling. Yes. Yeah, like, like Texas style fiddling. Uh, they can do it all.

[00:04:48] And, uh, but the fella that was at the session, um, said, you know, the Violin Society is coming to Chicago for a, like a show downtown. He says, come down and see some of the fiddles. And I went down to see some fiddles and I did want to meet Raymond Schreier, but he did not have any fiddles with him. He just had violas and cellos.

[00:05:10] So I, I took a fiddle from another maker just to try it. And, uh, I wasn't crazy about it. I sent that one back. And, uh, and again, um, so out of the blue, uh, I'm spacing out on the lovely man from Evanston to think of it. I'll add it to the story. There was a fella, there was a fella, yeah, there was a lovely fella.

[00:05:34] Not Guitar Works or whatever. No, no, it wasn't, it wasn't a shop. Oh, so it's just a, okay. What is his name? Oh, Bob Welland. So, do you know who Bob Welland was? I, I, I've heard the name. He was a, he was a professor, you know, at Northwestern. So he lived right up by Northwestern, but he played the auto harp. His daughter, um, Adele also played the auto harp and, and they all knew Brian Bowers and they knew the folk scene and Bob himself was making harps and had wonderful connections with Harpa and Chicago.

[00:06:06] But it was him, that, it was him that said, I can't hear you. You need a better fiddle. And so we meet Raymond Schreier. I go home with the other fiddle. I send the other fiddle back. And then out of the blue, uh, Bob, uh, called me and he says, you know, I just received a fiddle in the mail from Raymond Schreier saying, I think Liz might like this fiddle.

[00:06:28] So I jump in the car and I remember thinking to myself, I hope it's pretty. Some things don't change. It might sound good, but I hope it's pretty too. And it was pretty. And it sounded great. It has, it has tremendous volume on its own, which is great. It's nice, you know, it's, it's very even, you know what I mean?

[00:06:49] Like even, it's like. Yes. So sometimes you can go across those strings and they might, one might sound really brash and the other one might sound quiet. They're very even. Yeah. And so I think he just made a beautiful Fiddle, and he makes beautiful fiddles, so. Well, you know, hats off to the Canadians. They seem to have their act together with music.

[00:07:14] I know, I've done too. You know, and their own kind of style of Celtic music. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's a weird amalgam, like you said, Québécois. Yeah, and uh, and uh, and Cape Breton. Cape Breton. Cape Breton. You know, and have you ever gone up for the Celtic Colors? I have. Yeah. Okay. Now, that's, that's what I thought you really meant when you said they're doing it right.

[00:07:36] Well, they are. Because they are, yeah. That is. Do we look where you feature? A great, great time. And uh, You know, they, they really pay attention to their own music. So when you go to that festival, it isn't like there's nobody from Cape Breton in this festival. They're everywhere. And they're tremendous fiddle players.

[00:07:56] I think you know that. Tremendous guitar players. Amazing, their own style of piano playing. And um, And dancing. And dancing, I know. I mean, it's, it's all, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like when you were talking in the previous podcast, how. Celtic is probably a, an okay term to use because it's not exactly Irish what they're doing.

[00:08:17] It's just It's evolved into something. Yes. And so you can say, well, that's Canadian style. Yes. You know, of Seános dancing or whatever. Right. And, uh, you know, then you can look at it and say, yeah, cool. And people up there too, you know, those Irish connections, there are some living on Cape Breton who their real sources were people who were immigrants from Ireland.

[00:08:42] As opposed to Scotland, you know, yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's fine that it's definitely, uh, uh, that direct lineage and, uh, and for a while Gaelic was the second most spoken language in Canada. So, you know, the Canadians, um, uh, they, they still have it. Damn it. Canadians. Um. Oh no, we were all good with you. Yeah, we love you.

[00:09:10] But, uh, they, uh, they, uh, are also very good at being luthiers. In fact, uh, John Langford is playing a Canadian guitar, so this is the second Canadian instrument in a row that's graced this house. I want to ask you about your song, uh, your writing melodies. First of all, do you ever write lyrics to your stuff?

[00:09:36] No. It's, um, it's I can only say this, like I meet musicians all the time and they can vary tunes, but they can't make a tune. And because I, because I can make a tune, I kind of go, how can that be? But it is very, very true that I can't even begin to write a lyric. Isn't that weird? That is a little weird.

[00:10:03] Yeah, I've never, I, I, I, I, I don't even know that I've sat down, with a piece of paper and decided to write something that rhymed. I don't think I've written a poem unless I was forced to come to the switchback songwriting camp. Is it a difference? Is it a different skill? Is it like, I don't know. I don't think it is.

[00:10:27] I really don't. I think one is a continuation of the other. However, being, you know, traditional music player, you don't necessarily have Ever have to write a lyric. It's more important to have the melody. Yeah, and uh, yeah, I like that You know when I take a look sometimes at like the teams Of people who were writing in the states in the 20s and 30s and I guess maybe the 1880s 90s when you were getting sheet music and oftentimes music by this person Lyrics by that person.

[00:11:00] So so I kind of I I'm very forgiving of myself. I kind of go You know That doesn't have to be within the same person. You could actually write a melody, you know, for a song, or you could have, or the grab the person and say, please write lyrics to what I just did. But I'm amazed when it's within the same person, you know, I mean, that's, you know, that's a lot of talent packed in there.

[00:11:26] So those of you out there that's a lyric writer, Here's your, here's your, uh, here's your muse. You know, I saw, I had somebody recently, um, you know, it's just funny how the world just works. I, uh, I had a tune that was called The Island of Woods. So, I mean, I had this lovely melody in my head. Wrote the melody.

[00:11:52] Um, I thought it was nice enough that I have to really not just call it, you know, after Caper's the Dog. Caper's the Dog. So, I couldn't call it that. It had to actually have a nice, um, Right. Appropriate melody. So I was looking around in Irish history and there was a point where I, like, turned a page and it was talking about how Ireland, back in some ancient time, was known as the Island of Woods.

[00:12:17] And this would be back when it really was forests and not green fields, but it was forests. And so I thought, well, the Island of Woods and back from that time. So I thought that was a great point. Great name. So, Push On, now, a bit of time goes by, and a few people recorded that tune, and I had recorded it, and then, um, there was a fella that was in, uh, Minneapolis, or was it St.

[00:12:40] Paul, and, uh, and next thing, he really liked that melody, he wrote a lyric to it. So, so then, there's that. And then, my friend, Donny Sproul, who you might know, in Minnesota, uh, he learned it. And, uh, whose name is Barry Foy. And so he learned it. And then he played it, or sang it, at Milwaukee. And, uh, and then a group was out from Donegal.

[00:13:08] And they liked the song and taught it at a workshop, like in the Hebrides, where a girl who's playing fiddle from Germany, who also sings, decides to record it, her and an English accordion player. So it's just like, what just happened? It just traveled. This little way. And it's funny because the fellow in Minneapolis wanted to say, well, I wonder now, in case somebody records it, should we get rights to this?

[00:13:41] You know, should I get rights to it? And it was confusing because, you know, it's down as the Island of Woods. Uh, my own company was like, well, it's fine if there's a song that's wonderful, but you can't call it the Island of Woods. And I was like, well, that's not going to work because that is. The punchline of the song, and so it was very difficult, but, but the other thing that I was saying to him at the time, if this is all of interest, but the other thing I was saying to him at the time was that this is folk music.

[00:14:12] So not only had he written something to this melody, but also just unsolicited, like two people had sent me emails. And going, I love that, and I wrote this poem, and I wrote this song lyric, and I hope you like it. And so then you go, well, how can you put a definitive song on this thing that was never a song to begin with?

[00:14:35] Well, you, you can't, I guess, right? I'm interested in your answer to this. You could copyright, of course, your melody, but That is the best example of folk music I've heard in a long time, where you just send something out, and Yeah, most, most folk musicians kind of, their secret wish is that somebody will take that and say, Hey, I just, I just put, you know, the lyrics to it, and, and, uh, You see it all the time, I mean, I saw Eminem's, uh, new album, right?

[00:15:07] Yeah. And he has a song on there called Houdini, and he grabbed an old, uh, An old melody to sing on, to rap on top of it. I want to say, I think it was. That sounds like I know about a rap. I think it was Stewart Rosenberg who said like, you know, we, we would play something, but we would play it all deliberately different, a little bit off because the truth of folk music is that it's supposed to tumble through the, the big gem polisher.

[00:15:40] Of, uh, of, of music and that's what makes folk music fairly, uh, awesome in the sense that it, it can, it can hold its own. So how does Liz Carroll go about constructing a tune? I mean, is it the kind of thing where, you know, somebody calls, I mean, obviously, you know, you've got called by Mark Howard and they wanted you to, would you write a tune for this?

[00:16:05] And I know such a. I think more of that is happening right now, uh, right now, uh, than it ever did. I mean, I always just wrote tunes because I was kind of compelled. Do you have it like going on in your mind all the time? Yeah, I drag my husband to distractions. So you have it on your mind. I can't talk to you right now, I see what's happening.

[00:16:29] Ah, see this, see, I get that. Yeah. Totally get that. Yeah. So it's kind of, yeah. Yeah. It's, um. Yeah, but, but more like recently, like people will say, you know, I've done some projects with the, that other Marty, Marty Fahey, so lots of Marty's going on here, McCormack, Fahey's, Fahey, um, where he's asked me to, you know, to look at a painting and write something for the painting, which is always a really nice, Circumstance, you know, like anybody would like this, like anybody would like this, and I've, I've even used that like when I've done like little workshops and stuff and, you know, at some point besides learning the fiddle, you could just talk about tunes and you just kind of go, well, Okay, look at that wall.

[00:17:19] Write something for the wall. You know? And if it's really plain wall, you know, people are just like a very tentative OneNote. And I'm laughing, but one of my strangest things have happened, right? I was little, I was always writing little tunes. Mm-Hmm. . And I think, um, yeah, I have no idea. Sometimes I like to think that maybe it was a challenge.

[00:17:38] Because, you'd, you know, records were only coming out very seldom, and so you'd learn every tune off that album. And, and then everybody, the whole community knew that. Um, but you might be dying to do something different with your fingers or something new. So, uh, I would always be playing around with little melodies.

[00:17:59] Well, I want you to, I want you to play another little melody, and then we'll take a break, and then we're going to come back with more probing questions of loose carol, because uh, you know, you, you just, you keep opening up another avenue of, of, of questioning. It's great. And I've got, I've got some questions for you, so let's, let's hear a good one.

[00:18:22] Well, let's, let's, let's, let's say, uh, since I've been playing my own tunes, which of course, that, that's. Not acceptable. In the Irish community. Maybe I'll play an old tune. So, maybe um, It occurs to me to play the Sally Gardens so maybe this is a great old reel and uh, would have been maybe one of the first tunes I ever learned.

[00:18:43] So. Fantastic.

[00:20:05] We're on Strung Out with Liz Carol and we'll be back after this short little break. Alexa, play Relevant Elephant by Martin McCormack. Here's Relevant Elephant by Martin Lawrence McCormack on Amazon Music.

[00:20:32] We'll keep this in, this is, Liz is also a wonderful, do you have a pet at home? I do not right now, we used to have, we used to have a dog years ago, we have, we've had cats, and yeah, right now, right now. So, husband is not a musician? You know, uh, he doesn't play, uh, right now, but when we met, we met at parties because he was playing, uh, blues on harmonica.

[00:20:58] We were having blues and Irish sessions. There was a friend of ours, uh, Jim Frere, uh, that had just come back to Chicago from living in Sligo with his wife and he always had played a blues. I knew my husband when he was, when they were kids. And so when he came back to the city, He was just enthralled with Irish music.

[00:21:19] I met them at Sligo. I met them in Gurchie. And, uh, and these people that were going to be moving back to Chicago, and they said, can we look you up? And I said, absolutely. So then I met my husband there. So yeah. Wow. Love their music. That's awesome. And, uh, and then you, how many kids do you have? We have two.

[00:21:37] Uh, and how old are they now? Ah, well, they're getting up there. They probably don't want me to mention it, but Patrick's 37. That's awesome. And this one is 36, just 36. And are married kids, grandkids, nothing like that? No, no, nothing right now. And are they musical? I always think they're very musical, but they didn't, they're not following that path.

[00:21:57] Okay. Yeah, they're not doing it. My daughter Allison is out in San Francisco now finishing up the fourth year, like an internship for audiology. Does that count? Yeah. Um, she likes the tin whistle. She likes the playing the piano. Okay. And, uh, my son Patrick is our poker player and, uh, he lives mostly in, um, in Las Vegas and sometimes.

[00:22:22] It's a real, it's a real deal with that. He, he's able to, he's able to survive. He's not, you're not going to see him like on the poker channel. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. With the Unabomber look. Yeah. Yeah. I've watched those things. I could never play poker to save my life. I don't know how he does it. I just can't lose a quarter.

[00:22:42] I just, I'm so upset. Well, that's true too. I mean, I'm, I'm like, you know, if you win something, then you're like, well, I better shoot. I better leave now, you know, that I got my 1. 50 back, or whatever, you know. You said earlier before the break that, uh, you know, you shouldn't, you know, you're not allowed to play one of your own, but, uh, you know, in jest, before you did Sally Gardens.

[00:23:04] Yeah. Which you must play that too. Oh, well. Yeah. There you go. When I was listening to it, it brought back memories of the Banshees. Yeah. You know. Um. Um. Um. Are you at the point now where, and it sounds like you are, Liz Carroll's music is traditional music? That it's, it's in the pantheon, is it in the pantheon of, you know?

[00:23:27] I think, uh, you know, it depends on the tunes. Like that, that reel that I played for you, the one for the dancing group, I'd say, You know, it depends on the musician. Like, a lot of musicians would just go, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the old guard. But I'm the old guard now. So, but, but a lot of, a lot of people would be like, uh, no, no, no.

[00:23:49] Just because Of how it goes, you know, what those ideas of, you know, um,

[00:24:00] because that's really coming out of an American Yes. Tradition. Uh, it, it made sense for me within this tune, and I wasn't really trying to be in another tradition. It, it was in fact that the dancers were gonna be doing this with their feet done.

[00:24:17] So, so it, it came out of a. But I have tunes that I know that, um, people will play at sessions, you know? And, uh, and they think it's a trad tune. As in, it's old, nobody knows who made it, kind of thing. I think if you're writing, though, for dance, I mean, let's face it, Irish step dancing has changed, you know, from when I was with the McNamara Dancers and I had my one white shirt and my one tie and, you know, the cummerbund.

[00:24:48] Everybody had to have a cummerbund. Yeah. You know, and when it's, and now you have this, you know, you flash, you know, flash pots and you're, you're not gonna do, you know, a traditional tune. You can't, because that style of traditional, it's not even traditional. It's, it's kind of a modern Irish. Yeah. I think, you know, it depends on who you're, you know, it can, yeah.

[00:25:13] I mean, if you were playing for a Kaylee Yeah. Right. And you took a tune like that, the tune I just played, that trad tune, but if you were sitting, like, if you were sitting in a session, and it was just a bunch of you, I mean, that tune can roar, it can be It can roar. That might be for a ceilidh, because they want it to go.

[00:25:42] But if you sat down at that same ceilidh, and you went

[00:25:54] They would want to dance to that. And that's what a lot of people would call traditional. Right. Because it is, it is purely about the musicalness of the notes. Yes. And you're purely just doing that. But, you know, having been around, like we said, and we're saying, for so long, everything is allowed. Because, number one, youth doesn't want to go slow.

[00:26:21] Youth wants to roar. Youth wants to play tunes fast. I wanted to play tunes fast. You wanted to play tunes fast. Sure. And, and, and, and then an audience wants variety. So, like, a child's session. You could play reels for two hours. I sure hope that the festival's just heard what you said about an audience wants variety.

[00:26:43] Well, it's true. Sometimes my dream is that I'd get up on the stage and I'd play a set of reels, followed by a set of reels, followed by a set of reels, and then followed by a set of reels. Because, because it, it, that is more natural than just, okay, now we're playing for jigs and maybe we're going to play six or seven jigs in a row.

[00:27:07] And now we might play another couple of jigs at a different pace. And so that would be natural, but um, but an audience does want variety. So they, you want to change the timing. You don't want to follow a 4 4 piece with another 4 4 piece and another 4 4 piece. So you've got, it's got to be, maybe. It might be a 4 4 followed by a 6 8 followed by a 3 4, maybe if you're pushing it, and then a 2 4, you know, so you're going from horn pipes to jigs to bass and all of that.

[00:27:37] So again, what's traditional, you know, I, I just, but of course, a friend of mine was saying recently, saying, because you've experienced this kind of tough attitude that maybe your tunes are not traditional, you're very forgiving. And, uh, the, the friend happened to be a she, but she's very funny. And she was just kinda like, Liz, it's an awful tune.

[00:28:02] And I go, I can't even, I couldn't even say, like somebody sitting in a session, they play a tune, she thinks it's a terrible tune, but I'm forgiving it. And she's like, you're being forgiving. Because you're have, you've experienced that. She said, but I can tell you that that tune is rubbish. And I'm like, but it's not rubbish.

[00:28:20] I'm being honest. It's not, there's a place for that tune. That's, there's an enjoyment. There's an enjoyment of the fingering of it. There's an enjoyment of that moment. It goes back to your Chicago roots, because you see something and you're like, you know, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of like the children of the depression kind of thing.

[00:28:39] Yeah. I can make a use out of that, you know, I mean, in some ways, musically. That's really well put. That's very funny. I mean, that's, but that's, that's kind of, I think, where, uh, you know, in some ways, the Chicago music scene was interesting. We were talking, uh, you know, before, about like, people like Jim McCandless and, and the such that, you know, they, they were definitely Irish.

[00:29:05] Uh, they, but they were, um, Um, you know, they, they kind of would say, I, you know, this will work for me, this will work for me. And, uh, and it became something of its own kind. I think what's interesting is though, you write very traditionally and you can write within that. Yeah. Well, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't ever feel like it's very far away.

[00:29:30] You know, what is it about, you know, writing? musicians and people that are whoever these gatekeepers are that say you have to be dead for 50 years before they say, yeah, their definition of trad is, is actually different from what we would call it. If it's in the pocket, we would say it's Chad and we would not be looking at, is it 50 years old?

[00:29:54] But I think there are a number of people, God love them, that do. do want to, they don't want to know who wrote it. It's interesting, isn't it though? They wanted to just be in the ether, but in fact, somebody wrote it. Somebody wrote it? And people loved it, and they learned it. And I mean, there's loads of tunes like that now, that I think people would You know, would hate that they don't ever get to play that tune again.

[00:30:21] You know, there's tunes that have come into the tradition that we love them, come on. And the audience loves a story. They love to know the pedigree of things. Yeah. You know. Yeah, there's that too. And so, uh. Yeah. Have you come out with a book of your own? I have. I've done a couple of books. And where can people buy these?

[00:30:41] This is the shameless hucksterism time. Do you have a, do you have a website? I do have a website. I don't know why I never put them on Amazon or anything, but they are, they are, they, you know, they are on my website. So that's just lizcaroll. com. Lizcaroll. com, and we'll make sure it's on the other podcasts as well.

[00:30:59] Yeah, there's collected and there's collected too. And I'm thinking, you know, that, yeah, that the experience of doing a book is the experience of finding about ink, bindings. You have so many good stories to tell. I mean, just from sitting with you now and talking about you and, you know, I mean, it's, The next generation that's coming up.

[00:31:21] Let's, let's wind things down with looking at that. Is there hope? Is there, do you see, you know, I'm being very melodramatic, but I mean, you know, uh, Irish music, was it always, uh, what, do you think the, the quality of the sexes was there from an early age? Could you be a, you know, a female performer? Very, very much so.

[00:31:48] I, you know, I guess maybe when you go back to, you know, Ireland, maybe 50s and before it, You know, a lot of, um, the women musicians also, besides being great players, also had large families. And, um, I think I was reading it somewhere too, and this was very true, I can remember our early times of going to Ireland, you know, and, and the, the wives and their children and us visitors who were female, went to one side of the bar, while the men went to the other side of the bar.

[00:32:24] You know, so, Uh, but, but I think in particular that you had large families and that's all there is to it. So, where maybe, maybe the husband and father Um, if they were inclined, you know, could, could go out and play a few tunes. And, uh, maybe, maybe the wife, uh, slash mom of, you know, 10 kids. It wasn't so easy.

[00:32:49] You, you, you could be that wonderful player too, but you were at home and maybe there'd be, you know, there would be, um, stories about these women musicians who were lovely and great players. Um, but as time has gone on. Uh, you know, maybe McMeloney was in the middle of some of this too, just because of, um, a project from years ago, almost the same time as the Greenfields, there was a project that was called Cherish the Ladies, which was about, you know, it was about women musicians.

[00:33:23] And when we started doing that, we put on a couple of concerts in New York. Uh, not only were there women musicians playing, mostly in the New York area, but just because there were no schools of Irish music. There was a Fallot Pete Kelly out there, and there was Martin Mohel, and you know, people were taking music lessons, not just dancing lessons.

[00:33:45] Right. And uh, so that helped. There wasn't so much of that here, a little bit, Noel Rice was doing it, I, I started teaching fiddle because Noel Rice said do it, and uh, so there was a little bit of that, but I don't think as. on the scale of what was going on in New York. But when they had a concert that was called Cherish the Ladies, it turned out that almost every one of those female musicians had a father who was not only from Ireland, but, but was a musician.

[00:34:14] And so then there was a little couple of concerts that were called fathers and daughters. Oh, how cool. And how nice was that? And, and, you know, again, because of mixed connection, not only academically, but also in the arts, it was the ethnic arts council in New York city that put on those concerts, you know, I, I think the same thing was happening in Ireland, but I don't know if there was like schools where there were so many female musicians.

[00:34:42] There's a lot now. And they're terrific. And hats off to Joni Madden for keeping it going. Joni kept it going. Joni totally could see that Irish music, as we talked about in the first episode, belonged on a stage. And was worthy of the word, uh, music in every way. Yeah. Yeah. That this was not just an Irish music concert.

[00:35:12] This was a music concert and that this was beautiful music. Concert, orchestra, hall, quality. Exactly. Is what I, I guess what I'm, I'm saying about real traditional music. Where somebody like you could go and sit there by yourself. and play the fiddle and people could sit there and just absorb it and love it.

[00:35:32] And, uh, you know, so that's, that hasn't, well, maybe it has happened to some degree, like, you know, the chieftains to some degree, but, you know, but, but then again, they also kind of. You know, they bring the Rolling Stones and I think part of that is to keep it moving, you know? Well, yeah, that was like, that was their version of, uh, Change the Timing.

[00:35:56] Let me ask you this, you know, looking ahead, and let's just say, you know, uh, you're, uh, you have, what advice would you give now looking back on your success? And, uh, what advice would you give to somebody that's aspiring aspiring? to learn to play traditional Irish music. Yeah. I think, um, Yeah, just be, be open probably to your, to your own abilities that it, it might not be, be ready for the left turns.

[00:36:33] It may not be that you're going to be the solo person, it might be that you're going to be in a band. It might not be that it's going to be all Irish music, it might be a mix of Irish and Breton music. Um, just be open to what you're, you know, be able to, to follow along the road. But I really do think that there is I mean, and it's not anything I did, um, but there is a living to be made doing music.

[00:37:00] And, you know, the biggest shame would be that, you know, if you're spending eight hours doing something that isn't the best thing that you do. If music is really what you do best. Sometimes I look and I, and I can appreciate that, you know, it's a good idea to have a job. Yeah. When you talk about success, there's a, you know, there's a certain kind of success that's Not there for the Irish woman fiddle player who's sitting in the room.

[00:37:25] But, I have had a lovely, uh, a path of doing what I absolutely do. And to be open that somebody might grab you and say, could you do that? And then you go, yes, and because it might be another path, um, that you might, you might end up doing. But some people do get into an entirely different career. And I sometimes see that.

[00:37:49] Well, maybe, you know, they should have been. If anybody should be doing music, it could be that person. But, yeah, I'm very open to, like, it could be, it could be this, it could be that. Remember the lovely, um, movie about the, the baseball, where the doctor, Yeah used to be a player when he was a kid, but then he saves the little one How many people in here?

[00:38:12] Everybody will know the name of this. Come on, Liz It'll come to me 45 minutes You'll have to put one of those little banners. She's you know what we're talking about. It's And it's baseball Field of dreams. Thank you. Um, but but remember that he took a big You know, it was baseball and then he was a doctor.

[00:38:36] So, you know, I shouldn't say it, but there are some people that clearly It's it's it's it's a it would be a tragedy. I think that's the way he put it It would be a tragedy if they don't do music and you can do music all your life But again, you know, it is something that can be with you and maybe it maybe you're not gonna do it For a living until you're 35, until you're 45, until you're 60, I'll have to have you back because that in and of itself is a whole other podcast about, you know, how to, to make it in this world financially, because I think arguably living in the United States, you would think land of opportunity, but in a lot of ways, it's, it's very challenging to be a musician in the USA, as opposed to like Ireland or Canada or Any of these, you know, where there's a lot more, uh, culturally, I think they're a little more forgiving and open.

[00:39:35] They're very, well, you know, When you go, oh, boy, you named a great country. What support? I mean, I've done a little bit of touring there. You've done touring there. Um, yeah, it's, it's, it's the, it's the one thing, uh, here in the States, as, as, um, you know, especially, you know, if we're playing Irish music, it's, it's hard to, it's hard to tell anybody that they're there.

[00:40:00] Our government should support that music because it's not American music. It's not, it's not the real export. You, you are actually an immigrant, uh, influenced from a different country. You know, going back into our Celtic music, uh, genre. Yeah. I mean, there is some, you know, uh, The Americans, uh, the Irish Americans in some ways took that music and exported it, right?

[00:40:26] I mean, but, you know, we're splitting hairs. We're splitting hairs. That's a really good way of putting it. I wouldn't change anything I've done. I bet you're the same. No, I wouldn't. No, no. No, I, I, I think, you know, I think in some ways, uh, the, you know, the most successful musician is the person that, you know, can live in somewhat obscure, obscurity.

[00:40:51] As my friend, producer Lloyd Main said, uh, Oh, that's great. Yeah. He, he said, uh, you know, the, you, you met Lloyd, of course. And his, and I quote Lloyd, um, you know, to be respected by your peers, but to walk into a Walmart and not be recognized by anybody. Mm-Hmm. . And I was like, you know, that was his. And he said, with a great Texas accent, which I'm not gonna do it better.

[00:41:12] I, you know, and I was like, oh man, you know what? That is kind of the definition of success, but you are, you are, uh, a journeyman, you are, uh, uh, an institutional, and, uh, I hope, I hope everybody out there that wants to play traditional Irish music picks up Liz's music and starts playing it. In every session Everywhere.

[00:41:37] Because that's, that's, it's like, it's like Guinness. It's good for you. It's good for you. play. Play us out of this show. I wanna thank you so much for being on this podcast and Capers, you growling on this. Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me. We're gonna do, thank you again. Our producer, right?

[00:41:53] Anya. Good job and Miss Capers. Capers. Thank you for being here. Alright. Well, I'll finish. This is, uh, uh, what I think it might be is a slightly, um, a slightly Cajun tinged tune. And, uh, this is from a couple of weeks ago. So this is my most recent little tune. Alright. Hot off the press. You won't be able to hear the chorus.

[00:42:15] You won't be able to hear what I'm imagining. Before you play though, where do you get this tune? I didn't ask you. Do you put it into your phone? Do you write it down? I've done everything. You do it all. I've done it all. I'm like everybody else. Some of it, you write it down. Some of it, the whole tune is completely formed.

[00:42:28] Some of it, you're You're serving the news. You're stealing about it for weeks. You're serving the news. Alright. Liz Carroll Holmes.

[00:44:14] Man, that's great. What do you call that one? No Name Yet. No Name Yet. No Name Yet. There you go. Wow, um, yeah, I can, I can feel the value on that one. I really can. You know, it just reminds me of like Terrence Simien and some of those guys, you know. Um, once again, thank you so much for being in a strung out.

[00:44:35] Strung out. Good day. And, and thank you guys for hanging in here and, and listening and, uh, and we'll have, I always say this with everybody. What I, I really want you to come back so we can talk Mm-Hmm. talk all things Irish Wish and, um, yeah, you better, I'd love to do it again. You better get that book out,

[00:44:57] You got it. Uh, so. We'll see you guys soon. Take care. See you. Thank you. Bye. Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit martin mccormack.com. While there, sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

[00:45:21] It's so wrong, Spain. We feel makes no sense at all. The Swan song was a part of the deal was no good. Givin out joys, givin out sta