STRUNG OUT EPISODE 243: THE SPACES IN-BETWEEN OF STEVE DAWSON

Martin continues his interview with Steve Dawson, a singer-songwriter who formed several bands, most notably the alternative country band, Dolly Varden.  Having written scores of songs, Dawson is a wonderful source to ask about songwriting skills he has developed, his work with record labels, on being a success in the working musician world and advice for aspiring musicians on setting goals and expectations in this rough and tumble business.  Dawson's song title, The Spaces In-Between refers to a line in that song that mentions it is those spaces in-between where music comes from.  It's an intriguing line, yet when Dawson explains his musical style and work ethic, it makes a lot of sense.  Dawson teaches songwriting at the well-loved and respected Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago.  His website is www.SteveDawsonmusic.com.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:44
Unknown
Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer and musician Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

00:00:14:44 - 00:00:30:39
Unknown
Hey welcome back to Strung Out. And we are continuing with, I used to call these part twos, but, I'm just going to say ongoing, interview with Steve Dawson. Singer songwriter. I've been in a lot of great bands in Chicago.

00:00:30:44 - 00:00:52:33
Unknown
Really, the Americana wave where you one of these hide out kind of people or even where you. We played with. I have a little played at the hideout quite a bit. You know, it's such a great club. And, did you rub elbows with, like, an A and turned down those guys? Yeah. That the most I played the I was when Robbie first was doing his Monday night residency.

00:00:52:33 - 00:01:16:52
Unknown
Yes. Okay. I did a handful of those and they were always so much fun. And, Robbie, folks, just a fantastic musician. So now living out in L.A.. Yeah. Wish he would come back. Come back. Robbie, I have to interview him. Yeah. In the future, we can get him out or get out to LA, but, right, right.

00:01:16:57 - 00:01:44:53
Unknown
Let's talk a little bit about your your, songwriting here. First of all, and last podcast, we talked about you being a teacher and finding your familial roots. Yes, teacher. Right. And I think that's fascinating because, and we also talked about, your, your song crafting just a little bit about, you know, creating the story.

00:01:44:58 - 00:02:20:15
Unknown
Tell us, first of all about the, the work that you're doing on songwriting at the Old Town school. Yeah. And where do you go about starting a song for somebody that's like, Hi, Mr. Dawson. Right. I want to learn how to write a song. One of the things I say is, I can't teach you how to write a song, but you actually already know how, so it's, it's a little bit of just giving people permission to say, oh, I'm gonna write songs now and then.

00:02:20:15 - 00:02:42:23
Unknown
The things I try to teach are form. So one of the biggest misunderstandings or the things that that open, open doors are open minds is what a verse does, what a chorus does, what a bridge does. This idea of a, refrain or a line like a line that ends a verse, sort of like a Dylan thing, right?

00:02:42:23 - 00:03:17:44
Unknown
Well, right. Like he he doesn't write choruses a lot of the time he'll write a song where every verse ends in a line, like, like shelter from the storm. Right? Right. So that's helpful. The idea of, what chords? The chords are like a bed, and you don't need to know a lot of chords to write songs, like, it's, you know, if you just basically understand the really simple one 4 or 5 six minor even of of some basic keys, right?

00:03:17:45 - 00:03:39:31
Unknown
You really have enough information to start writing songs. You don't need to know all this music theory. A lot of people think, like, I need to know all this information first. I'm like, if you know GCD and E minor, you've got a lot. Okay, now, right? You can you can do a lot with that. Sure. And then for as far as like what to write about, that's a big one too.

00:03:39:36 - 00:04:11:44
Unknown
And I tell people to to journal to write just like free. Right. And get out of there, you know, get out of your way and try to just like write down your thoughts as they occur. Consider like that everyone's story is interesting. If once like once you start get beyond like the surface stuff, everyone has interesting things in their life.

00:04:11:49 - 00:04:52:25
Unknown
Struggles, loves loss, loves family things, friendships, you know, people that have died, people that have births or, celebrations of people or like, even like anger and all that stuff like that. There's that sort of meat of just being alive. Okay. Is interesting. The end of it is most of what songs are about, and they're songs are an acceptable format for people to talk about their feelings, which we don't have a lot of those in our culture, but it's a song is a place where it's like, okay, to talk about your heartbreak or, your struggles.

00:04:52:29 - 00:05:15:52
Unknown
Levon, why don't you, do, play a song that you would play to your class of yours? And I feel like, well, you know what do you do that do you say I don't I don't, okay. You don't. Interesting. Okay. I try not to, because I had a teacher at Berkeley, who was a great teacher, but.

00:05:16:05 - 00:05:36:09
Unknown
And he would use great examples of songs, so he'd like, here's a Joni Mitchell song. He was a Paul Simon, where this happens. And here's one of mine where I use this technique. And his songs were terrible. And I was so embarrassed for him. Oh, God. Rachel, it's like you're playing in Paul Simon song. That's brilliant.

00:05:36:15 - 00:05:59:48
Unknown
Okay. And it's a brilliant distillation of, like, how this thing works. And then here's mine. And I'm like, oh, God. But, you know, looked for this guy has some credibility. I mean, you've proven yourself well, but Jimi, maybe not, but I, I so don't want to be that guy. Yeah, I hear you. I look what I could yeah, look and yeah, you don't strike me as that kind of guy.

00:05:59:48 - 00:06:25:09
Unknown
You're not that kind of, you know, we've we live in a age of narcissism. You're not in, you're not in that club, but. But, grab the guitar anyway. And and one of the songs I can actually use as an example is that very first one I played, which is, the Saskatchewan Harvest. Because it's a good example of a couple of things.

00:06:25:09 - 00:06:49:31
Unknown
One is it's, it's just a 12 bar form. So it's a, it's a blues form, which is, which is a form that's been used literally thousands of times, as you know, in so many songs. But it doesn't sound like a blues, but it is. It's a 12 bar form. The other is. So it's like as far as chords, it's like, well, there's a template, you can use that template and write some songs and it's going to sound good.

00:06:49:31 - 00:07:15:32
Unknown
It's a proven form, right. The other is that this is something I had to learn and I don't I think I learned through teaching is that it's it's incredibly specific to my life. And even as I was writing it, I was like, no one cares about this. Why would anyone care about where my great grandfather was born, where my family moved to jobs?

00:07:15:33 - 00:07:41:35
Unknown
My grandfather had it's it's it has nothing to do with anything anyone's interested in is only my story. But I will say that that song is one of the ones that people like the most of the songs ever written. And what that tells me and what people have told me is that it's not so much the details of your life that are interesting, it's that it makes me reflect on my own story.

00:07:41:40 - 00:08:01:58
Unknown
So it's like, oh, so you're and I think you even said that makes me think of my, my share, my descendants from our, well, the Canadian roots and right and just the right the the feeling of west, of being out west and. Yeah. I'm not going to have you played I played that, yeah. But you have to go to the first podcast and listen to the song.

00:08:01:58 - 00:08:26:00
Unknown
It's a really it's a, it's I love the simplicity of it. Right. And and maybe that's the one thing people get hung up on is that if you just kind of you're talking about, you know, speaking from the heart, but speaking in simple, simple straight. Yeah. Straightforward structure, you know? Yeah, yeah. Repetition. People are afraid to repeat stuff.

00:08:26:05 - 00:08:33:32
Unknown
Now I want to hear what that I want to hear one of those bad songs is that.

00:08:33:37 - 00:08:53:13
Unknown
I just think that there's, there's always like a television plot in people's lives and that's, that's one that I to, you know, and here's a song I wrote. Oh, God. I don't know if other people in the class felt that, but I, but I every time I was just like, no. Oh, yeah. It's just so painful. So painful.

00:08:53:13 - 00:09:12:25
Unknown
Well, you paid your dues. Give us, give us a song. Just any one that, and it doesn't, you know, have to be representative of your, teaching. Yeah, but one that you feel like here's a good songwriting style. You know, this is one that's been good to me, so to speak. This is a song.

00:09:12:25 - 00:09:34:45
Unknown
This is a on a Dolly Parton record. And. This is a song that I would call my. Maybe this doesn't even fit that. But what I call a song song, which is a song that feels like anybody could sing it, and

00:09:34:50 - 00:10:03:58
Unknown
It's not just personal autobiographical, it's not sort of idiosyncratic. It's more like, a song that, you know, like, anyone could sing that song. You know, Merle Haggard could sing that song or, yeah. Name, name, any number of great song song stylists that sing. So this I am, I, I, and a lot of people I know are always straining to write song songs and it's so, so hard.

00:10:04:00 - 00:10:20:25
Unknown
It is. We'll we'll get into more of that. What's, what's this song called? This song is called The Thing You Love is Killing You. And this is the only song of mine that, like other people have covered. Oh, I'm glad you sang this song. It shows. And, this woman in England did a recorded version of it.

00:10:20:25 - 00:10:21:47
Unknown
So nice.

00:10:24:42 - 00:10:45:12
Unknown
I see your face is. Is that. Well? You try to hide away, but it's easier to tell.

00:10:45:17 - 00:11:01:34
Unknown
But just stick to your guns. You know? You know it's true. The thing you love.

00:11:01:39 - 00:11:06:34
Unknown
Is killing me.

00:11:06:39 - 00:11:17:09
Unknown
When you were killing. Inspiration. Come.

00:11:17:14 - 00:11:27:24
Unknown
Slowly narrow it down to a dance. Go up.

00:11:27:29 - 00:11:44:06
Unknown
You pour out your soul to the world whose indifference is spelled. Every. The things you love.

00:11:44:10 - 00:11:48:52
Unknown
Is killing.

00:11:48:56 - 00:12:21:08
Unknown
The same you love. Love. It won't let you slay. You how some of before me. Resistance. We. And what could you offer? With such desperate I.

00:12:21:13 - 00:12:26:16
Unknown
You tried to recover.

00:12:26:21 - 00:12:31:38
Unknown
A year at a time.

00:12:31:42 - 00:12:37:30
Unknown
And when it's all over.

00:12:37:35 - 00:12:48:01
Unknown
What conclusion did they come to you? The thing you love.

00:12:48:06 - 00:13:02:44
Unknown
Is killing me. You eat nothing other than. Is killing me.

00:13:02:49 - 00:13:06:45
Unknown
And.

00:13:06:45 - 00:13:28:38
Unknown
Document back down. Express. Coming on. I'm good this time. Half again. This time.

00:13:28:43 - 00:13:48:47
Unknown
One. No.

00:13:48:47 - 00:14:18:10
Unknown
That song, that we just listened to before the break. It has a lot of classic terms. Yes. And, in that, in it, Makes me want to ask you, you know, who are your heroes? Your inspirational heroes for songwriting, then? There's so many. As a little kid, I love the Beatles.

00:14:18:10 - 00:14:51:21
Unknown
So the Beatles were probably the first, the first songwriters that I recognized as, like, I really love these songs as a little kid, once I started playing guitar. It was the late 70s, and so that era of the sort of like acoustic singer songwriter was kind of coming to an end, but they were still out there, some Neil Young and also like once relatives learned I was playing guitar, like on birthdays and Christmas I would get songbooks, which maybe you did too.

00:14:51:22 - 00:15:18:57
Unknown
Oh, sure. So I got like the harvest song, like Old Time Harvest. I got Simon and Garfunkel, I got the James Taylor, Jackson Browne, you know, and living in Idaho, not a lot of stuff to do. I just ate that stuff up and all those songs. Was your dad and stepmom out there in Idaho? With a, you know, go for it.

00:15:19:02 - 00:15:40:10
Unknown
I mean, with a very supportive and supportive. Yeah. Wonderful example. Yes. Which is an important thing to have that confidence. Yeah. Because that makes you take that leap of faith to write a song. Totally. And, and, and put it together without fear of ridicule or somebody laughing at you, you know? Yeah. Like I had a strange amount of confidence in high school.

00:15:40:10 - 00:16:00:24
Unknown
Like I would, I would, I would like when the school would do a band concert, you know, like the school band in choir. I somehow talked my way into, like, between the band and the choir to let me come out and say songs. I mean, I didn't, I, I don't know why right now. I'm like, oh my God, how do I have the confidence to think it's great?

00:16:00:25 - 00:16:27:39
Unknown
You should let me come out and sing a song and then like, all right. Yeah, but oh, how wonderful that you were able to to find that, the confidence. And is that something that you try to instill with your students at the Old Town with songwriting? Is that one of the things that you, you know, see the I mean, when when you get somebody to write a song, you see a transformation taking place.

00:16:27:40 - 00:16:54:22
Unknown
Yeah. In some ways, yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the joys of being a teacher. Right? Right. Yes. To to change a person's life in such a way is is songwriting is about confidence, right? The confidence to be vulnerable. Yes. Yeah. But also the confidence to, Trust yourself that you can write something in such a way that it could, be received by others.

00:16:54:22 - 00:17:15:29
Unknown
Right. In a positive. Yeah. No, it's a big deal. And when I teach the, the big sort of intro, the fundamentals class, the first few weeks of class, it's a weekly class. The first few weeks I'm giving information, giving information. And then at some point I'm like okay now you write a song, you come back next week and sing it to us.

00:17:15:34 - 00:17:41:25
Unknown
And people are like, oh shit. Yeah I can swear on here. Are you sure that's what I tell you. When they come in and play their song, it's a big deal. And there is confidence. There's a lot of fear, a lot of vulnerability. Now, but when they present a song and everyone listens to it and then you say like, wow, that this part of this song is really good, you know?

00:17:41:25 - 00:18:16:35
Unknown
Good. Yeah. Good job. It's a, it's a big deal and it's, it's life affirming and, creativity. I mean, I think that's, that's humanity at its best is being creative. So me these days, how do you go about getting your ideas? Are you an old school, like, you know, journalist type of person that you keep? You know, do you handwrite your lyrics out, that sort of thing, or you, you know, one of these people that whips out the cell phone and says, oh, you know, I'm driving along and blah, blah.

00:18:16:35 - 00:18:43:20
Unknown
You know, I do some of that. And then I do, you know, I still write the same way I did when I was in high school, which is you have to get the paper and pen guitar and. Right, right, right, right. Same things do dummy lyrics, you know, so like that when I'm in, and trying to figure out what words might go with that sometimes, if I have a line, which I'm sure you know, if you get a line that's cool.

00:18:43:35 - 00:19:08:56
Unknown
You can structure the whole thing around the line. Around the cool line. Absolutely. And, you know, on the last podcast, we were talking about ritual of CDs and stuff like that. Then again, is the ritual to songwriting. I, I mean, I think so. I mean I have very specific like I need a certain type of pen or like a blank sketchbook that has no lines.

00:19:08:56 - 00:19:27:51
Unknown
The lines drive me crazy. I have to have. Okay. So I mean, yeah, there's definitely ritual involved. I like to sit on the floor. What kind of pen there do I have here with me? I see a pen on the sill over. There's not. No, that's not those. Okay. I mean, that's funny because, you know.

00:19:27:54 - 00:19:55:36
Unknown
Yeah, for my art, I have to have a certain kind of, you know, but, songwriting. Yeah. That's, it's. I do believe there has to be, ritual. And you're talking about, like, setting the scene. Almost. Yeah. So, yeah. Do you take yourself aside and say, I'm going to write a song today or talk to your wife and say, hey, you know, I'm going to write a song and, I won't see you for a couple out.

00:19:55:36 - 00:20:21:28
Unknown
Is it that kind of thing to encourage that sort of thing, or do you want people to just be like, you know, any way they can find it, grab it? Well, sort of both. One thing about my relationship with Diane is that she's a creative, so she totally understands, you know, the creativity. So she has her studio out back, and then if she's out there for hours every day and I don't bother her when she's out there.

00:20:21:28 - 00:20:47:57
Unknown
So if I'm up here, you jam gently with the upstairs writing a song. She doesn't bother me either. If she comes in and notices that that's what's happening and she'll exit. So there's a lot of respect for her. Like, this is important and this is what's happening right now. But but as I'm sure you know, ideas don't just, like, wait until you're sitting down ready to do it.

00:20:47:57 - 00:21:20:40
Unknown
They will come out of the blue when they're they're most inconvenient. That's where the cell phone comes in. And. Okay. Right. So it's like walking down the street or driving or whatever, you know, you stop at a stoplight, grab the phone and send your idea into the into the phone. Is there, Steve does an, you know, junkyard of lyrics that you go out to and you say, oh, hey, you know, pulled this one out of this, this car.

00:21:20:45 - 00:21:42:05
Unknown
Totally. Okay. And how do you keep that? How do you keep that? I mean, well, I used to be better at it. I mean, I have notebooks going all the way back to the 80s. I try to. Well, I guess the ones that I think are good, I have them in the back of my mind. It's like, I know that that's a thing, right?

00:21:42:07 - 00:22:08:08
Unknown
But as I'm getting older, I'm sort of losing track of them. And I will go back occasionally through old notebooks and, and like, oh, okay, here's something. There's one song I have that the, the lyric I always liked, but the music was not didn't work. Okay. And, I always like the lyric. So this is on a record I made in 2014 called with a band called Funeral Bonsai Wedding.

00:22:08:08 - 00:22:34:43
Unknown
And, the so I took that lyric completely, rewrote the music and, and a chorus as I was rewriting music, a chorus that pulled the whole thing together, popped into my head. So that's a song where the original lyric was written for some, The Host, which in the late 80s and, song was finished in 2014. So, okay, there is instances where stuff hangs around.

00:22:34:46 - 00:22:46:33
Unknown
Can you, can you play that one for sure? Yeah. What's it called? It's called as soon as I walk in. And I don't remember how the original music went though. It's okay.

00:22:57:03 - 00:23:06:12
Unknown
Wash my hands for good.

00:23:06:16 - 00:23:13:38
Unknown
Rod, my troubles is.

00:23:13:42 - 00:23:21:38
Unknown
What primarily was around the block.

00:23:21:43 - 00:23:39:47
Unknown
And give me have all the, where I ask myself what I do in the.

00:23:39:52 - 00:23:48:49
Unknown
Chez crowd. And you know what?

00:23:48:54 - 00:23:57:30
Unknown
She drove down a hill and up every.

00:23:57:35 - 00:24:06:28
Unknown
We were under control. She was laughing.

00:24:06:33 - 00:24:41:44
Unknown
When she stopped the car, threw out your arms and said, And, what's good is a worry. As soon as I walk in, I'm already certain to you. As soon as I walk in the morning. I said, in the. Series, you walk in. I've already sat in the way I.

00:24:41:49 - 00:24:55:59
Unknown
Have, Children. And around me.

00:24:56:04 - 00:25:01:22
Unknown
Give you 60.

00:25:01:27 - 00:25:10:16
Unknown
Your first couple hours a day that you wrap your arms around me.

00:25:10:21 - 00:25:26:51
Unknown
It was only once, but never since I been waiting for life in the street. Me? As soon as I was already set up.

00:25:26:55 - 00:25:34:47
Unknown
This is a walk, a move in a certain way.

00:25:34:52 - 00:25:57:33
Unknown
Isn't. Isn't working. I'm already sweating the way I still do.

00:25:57:33 - 00:26:28:31
Unknown
Hello, this is Polly Chase with artwork by Martin McCormick. You recognize this painting titled Centurions from the newsletter. It is acrylic on canvas and measures 20 by 24. The vibrancy of this piece comes from Marty's use of two complementary colors, red and green, and a saturated, cool blue sky that balances the red or implied heat of the scene.

00:26:28:35 - 00:27:00:46
Unknown
You'll notice that Marty applies his acrylics in a manner that produces a realistic image, with a pointillist texture and color play by placing those complementary colors near the one on top of the other. He can achieve deep shadow areas with dazzling effect, using his own photograph as a reference. Marty preserves the open ended pathways that invite the viewer to venture among the prickly cacti.

00:27:00:50 - 00:27:17:53
Unknown
You can take a longer look at this piece and see more of Marty's artwork at Martin mccormick.com. This lands up in Louisiana. The rough, rugged road.

00:27:17:53 - 00:27:24:54
Unknown
We're back with Steve Dawson. Listening to that song. That before the break.

00:27:24:59 - 00:27:44:49
Unknown
What was the, anchor line that got you going on that song? Well, it's the. As soon as I walk in, I'm already searching a layout. Yeah. Searching way out. Okay. Which is, you know, I'm an introvert, so it's like. You know, entering the room, one of the first things I do is, you know, locate the exit key.

00:27:44:56 - 00:28:10:00
Unknown
And my wife would get me. So you know I figure out my escape chair. There's a line right. Yeah. But they had all the lyric of that song was written long, long, long time ago. Part of that was written on a trip to Nashville when I was down there with PolyGram. That like every hour on the hour, I ask myself what I'm doing here.

00:28:10:05 - 00:28:33:22
Unknown
Part of it is an old, like old, old memories of, being in a car with my mom and sweet skidding down a hill. And just being like, but yet you you you're able to take these different memories. Yeah. And such, but you kind of knitted this very, It's it's a beautiful musically, the song to be beautiful.

00:28:33:22 - 00:29:05:20
Unknown
How great it changes. And and it's a it's I can sense the. Since you use the word introverted. There is a sense of angst. Yeah. Yeah. You know, tonally, even though there's this flow and you're talking about, you know, this, it sounds like a lover or whatever is that you are saying, hey, we can, you know, and you're like, so what is, you know, when you write a song like that and you, you are pulling things back in from over the years and memories and such.

00:29:05:24 - 00:29:14:26
Unknown
What point do you reach where you are like it's done.

00:29:14:31 - 00:29:46:27
Unknown
Well I'm kind of impatient so. I don't like to work and work and work on a song. I like to get it. I like to, if it's happening I like to get it done as quickly as possible. So, but I mean as obviously that song is however many years in the making, but it was a finished song from the 80s that I didn't really care for.

00:29:46:32 - 00:30:03:10
Unknown
And as I was, it was an album project I was working on and I needed material and I didn't have anything new. So then what ends up happening is I go, I scale back through like what, what's all the old songs. And I landed on that one. I was like, well, I kind of like those lyrics, but let me see if I can mess with it to make something new with it.

00:30:03:15 - 00:30:30:08
Unknown
But I didn't spend that much time. It's not like I was like fishing around for all kinds of different ideas. It was more like, I just tried this and if I just do a very simple, band and sing it and then that, that came together. One thing I will say is that one thing I really like to do, and I really like, and others work is that kind of thing where you're talking about scenes.

00:30:30:13 - 00:31:14:39
Unknown
And I think this is I learned mostly from Paul Simon and mostly from Paul Simon, like his stuff from the 80s and beyond, like from Hearts and Bones and his Graceland and beyond, where it's almost like a surrealism. And lots of images and, it ties together because of the music and because of this idea that if you plant an image and then you plant another image, our brain cannot help but try to combine them and try to make sense of them interesting, even if they don't make sense logically we can.

00:31:14:44 - 00:31:35:10
Unknown
Our brains are these amazing machines that are able to sort of make sense of seemingly things that don't make sense. And I really use that, and I love that when it works. And that's song. I think it works. Another person who I think it really does that beautifully is Phoebe Bridgers. If you know me. Ever heard of her songwriting?

00:31:35:10 - 00:32:01:32
Unknown
I think she's a she's just brilliant with that stacking of images that don't make logical sense, but they make emotional sentence or that that resonate. Do you feel Dylan did that or did you feel? I always felt like Dylan just was the the trickster coyote. Yeah, there's some of that for sure. You know, but this is, like, he's almost, like, developed.

00:32:01:32 - 00:32:24:19
Unknown
He developed his own language, almost like. Yeah. If you think of the classic big, long, epic Dylan songs like Hard Rain's Gonna Fall or Shelter from the storm, it's almost like he. No one else can use that kind of language, right? Like if you tried to talk about, you know, gestures and, like, you know, very like he's a, he's you look like you'd be like, what are you doing?

00:32:24:26 - 00:32:44:41
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, he was you, you know, and I and maybe because of that, I always felt like, oh, you know, it's he pulling a fast one on me. You know, as a singer songwriter, like, you know, you gotta eat like, and. But yet I also appreciated the, the poetry of it, you know, and the submission of him.

00:32:44:54 - 00:33:17:31
Unknown
His, his, just outright confidence. And just like the what's the right word? It's almost like audacity to be like, just like I'm doing this. Yeah, there's no precedent, and I'm just going to do it and I'm going to do it 100% when he's fully engaged. I'm going to write a seven minute song. That makes no sense really.

00:33:17:43 - 00:33:49:56
Unknown
Right. I'm going to deliver it passionately. And it's just like okay I'm in. Yeah I'm in. Yeah. Are you, the kind of songwriter that starts with Melody first? Do you know, if, you know, you talked in just our discussion, you you all grab the guitar and say, well, I then I, you know, I oh, or are you, like, one of these people that's like, oh, man, I just found this lyric that, you know, how am I going to put music to it?

00:33:50:01 - 00:34:13:36
Unknown
Well, what kind of do I start? Well, there's two ways to to ways for me. If I have a line or a concept that's great. And that makes that that makes it easier. If I don't have any lyrics to get going, I will start with chords. So there was like.

00:34:13:41 - 00:34:40:56
Unknown
I try to find interesting chord changes. Most often I have a line or an entire I have a lyric idea to get me and sometimes not. If I don't, then I'm just fishing around with chords and trying to sing things like, like, And I've got, you know, dozens of voice memos of chords that I thought sounded cool together.

00:34:41:01 - 00:35:03:28
Unknown
Well, I like that. You know, if you encourage your songwriters to, do the nonsensical. Yeah. Because it's so crazy how sometimes, will come stumbling something that, you know, from the subconscious that, you know, you know, all of a sudden makes sense. Growing up, were you the kind of kid that held the radio in the mind going of, Steve Dawson music?

00:35:03:33 - 00:35:31:49
Unknown
Oh. You learned your own stuff. I mean to say. Is that with you? Once I. Well, I was a kid who had an Am radio on, and, like, it was on my bike, and it was always good. You know, I always had the radio on. And the led my little transistor radio. Just love I just loved everything that was on the radio but not everything but it was a great time though for you know it's funny thinking like you know there was so many, so many great songs.

00:35:31:54 - 00:35:49:09
Unknown
But I remember I'm teaching in my classes right now. Time on a bottle of gin for sure, which is a great song, but I'm as I'm teaching it, I'm remembering when it came on the radio when I was, you know, in third grade, I was like, well, I don't wanna hear that, you know, it's like minor key and certain as, like, there, right?

00:35:49:09 - 00:36:27:48
Unknown
I hate this. But now as, like, that is a brilliant song. Well, and it just again, you know, you're talking about simplicity. You're talking about, you know, a melody line that, you know, it waltzes. Yeah. You know, which is kind of a tough thing, I think, to pull off, you know, a waltz like that, that is, so meaningful and, and and, you know, I always argue that it's tougher to write, you know, that's kind of a sad song to some degree, but it's it's it's tougher to write that an upbeat, happy song is a positive song.

00:36:27:48 - 00:36:51:22
Unknown
Yes. So, you know, do you tell what do you tell your students, you know, when they're, they're just getting going. Are you like, well, pick. Pick something that, was traumatic in your life or traumatic or something inspirational, or if you just kind of, what's the right flip for somebody that's listening in on this to get go?

00:36:51:27 - 00:37:21:22
Unknown
Well, my the first assignment I give is to go through photographs and find a photograph that resonates on some level. So it could be joy. It could be sorrow, it could be just nostalgia. But usually people can find a photograph that is meaningful and let that be a doorway into singing something about it. They could even just describe the scene or describe the relationship, or describe what was, you know, the back story.

00:37:21:26 - 00:37:38:39
Unknown
As far as I do get a lot of there's a lot of comments about how my wife says, you know, why are you writing so many sad songs? I had one guy ages ago drop out of the class because it's like, I don't want to be. I don't want to be so filled with sorrow. I don't want to be expressing that.

00:37:38:53 - 00:38:10:55
Unknown
Oh. I was just like, well, you know, that's what happens. Songs are, as I was saying earlier, songs are an acceptable format or acceptable place for us to express feelings of vulnerability, sorrow, heartbreak, mortality. It's it's a place in our culture where that's acceptable. So of course, that's what's going to start happening. And then I say, if you want to write songs that are positives, don't think like I'm right.

00:38:11:02 - 00:38:37:45
Unknown
Joy. Think gratitude. First. Think about something that you're grateful for or express. You know, say a song to your pet in a song. You know, sing a song to a time that you overcame something and you felt good about it, like. Rather than I'm super happy, it's a great day. But you know there's a lot of those, those are really fun songs.

00:38:37:50 - 00:39:01:49
Unknown
If the, if, if you can pull it off. Yeah. You know like the Beatles were able to pull off. Have you know the happy songs that they wrote, they were able to pull it off. I think, because, they were touching again, you know, on very simple tenant, Joy, you know, a year ago, like, you know, like, I could talk to it for you.

00:39:01:50 - 00:39:22:19
Unknown
We could probably do five podcasts, and I will have to have, something with you in the future. Again. And, I wanted to thank you, first of all, for your time and, just, and congratulations on such a great career. Oh, man. Yeah. And, and keep it going. So happy that you chose Chicago to be your home.

00:39:22:24 - 00:39:52:45
Unknown
And, if you have one little bit of advice to tell anybody aspiring to be a musician. And they came up to you on the street and they said, you know, I want to be just like you, Steve. Gosh. What would you tell? Well, okay, I would say don't try to be just like anybody that the thing that the things about you, that are unique are the things that are interesting about you.

00:39:52:50 - 00:40:19:32
Unknown
So the more that you can find your own personal story, like the ways that you express yourself, like, so embrace the sound of your voice, embrace the songs that you like. Sing from your heart. Try not to try not to think of how something will be perceived by others, which is very difficult. These are all very difficult things.

00:40:19:37 - 00:40:47:58
Unknown
But, you know, write for yourself, write to please yourself, and you'll find more satisfaction if you're able to do that. But it's like if you think of any great artist, anyone who's had a lasting career, you can identify them within a less than a minute of hearing them, because it's the sound of their voice, the way that they the way that they sing, the way that they play, the way that they approach the melody and chord changes.

00:40:48:03 - 00:41:14:30
Unknown
So it's like, find it. I think the lines find out who you are and be that. Do it nice. Don't try to emulate others right. And why don't you play this out and pick a song? You know, pick a song that you you just came up with the, ghosts and, maybe, I don't know if you have one on there that, kind of sums up where you are at this point in your life.

00:41:14:31 - 00:41:44:37
Unknown
Oh, wow. And while you're thinking of that, I want you to tell tell people. What do you want? People 50 years from now come away with? You you have, I would say that I, you know, that I worked hard, I wrote some nice songs, and. Yeah, I put the work in and I, you know, it's like, yeah, good job.

00:41:44:42 - 00:42:04:24
Unknown
Yeah. You can look back and say like, yeah, that that guy did that. I did some good work. That's it. I think that's fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Give this one whatever you want, you know? Okay. What's this one called? Yeah. The some summing up of where I'm at is there's a little bit too much, but. Well, then narrow it down.

00:42:04:29 - 00:42:17:24
Unknown
The last ten years. No. Yeah, just this one. Okay. This is a short song. You know, this is from the previous record. Okay. This is a good one. This is,

00:42:17:29 - 00:42:22:28
Unknown
This is a simple song, but, I really like it. And, it's called the Spaces in between.

00:42:27:50 - 00:42:55:33
Unknown
Life's too short. It takes too long. Years fly by in the days driven I made a wish. It did not come true I found the best things to do.

00:42:55:38 - 00:43:02:04
Unknown
With.

00:43:02:09 - 00:43:31:23
Unknown
I'm filled with hope. Filled with. Driven I get so tired and I don't go to bed. I cannot stop the spirit in my brain I drift away, I come back here.

00:43:31:27 - 00:43:36:05
Unknown
We.

00:43:36:10 - 00:44:07:22
Unknown
Want to remember I wish I could forget. A lifetime learning I haven't even started yet. It's all so easy. It's harder than it seems. The music comes from the spaces in between. You.

00:44:07:45 - 00:44:21:19
Unknown
Everybody, will pick up on next time, and strung up. And, thanks for, paying attention and being here. All right. We'll see you again. Buh buh.

00:44:21:19 - 00:44:39:02
Unknown
Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit Martin mccormack.com while there. Sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

00:44:39:07 - 00:44:51:54
Unknown
It's so strong. Spain, we feel, makes no sense at all. The swan song wasn't part of the deal, was no good. All giving no choice. Giving us a.