Strung Out Episode 245: CREATING THE DREAM-NIKKI O'NEILL AND RICH LACKOWSKI

When Nikki O'Neill and Rich Lackowski moved to Chicago, it was so they could live a life as independent musicians in an environment that could literally afford them the creativity.  The creative process is something that depends not only on finances, but having a dedicated work ethic.  It also means having a good band.  Their Chicago band has helped with "Stories I Only Tell My Friends" O'Neill's latest release.  With Lackowski not only on drums, but moral support as both bandmate and husband, O'Neill has captivate an audience far beyond her Los Angeles days. Showcasing at SPACE in Evanston, IL and touring, she will be coming to a town near you.  O'Neill explains her creative process and how she manages to creatively juggle it all to keep on the road as an indy musicians.  

www.Nikkioneill.com is the website.  Check out her bio, her music and catch a show.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:44
Unknown
Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer and musician Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

00:00:14:44 - 00:00:23:11
Unknown
to Strong Out. And we are continuing along with our interview with Nicky O'Neil and Rich Markowski.

00:00:23:11 - 00:00:52:03
Unknown
And we are talking, the last. But we got to know them the last podcast. But now we're, we're going to dive a little deeper into the creative process for this, husband, wife, musical team, songwriters, Americana. But a lot of the eclectic elements percolating through their music, which is really, really fun. Want to listen to. So what are you going to give us for a starter for this podcast?

00:00:52:08 - 00:00:53:55
Unknown
We're going to play a tune called A Space to

00:01:03:58 - 00:01:50:24
Unknown
Hustle! Stop! Hold on me. If you stop with the feel to be everything that I can be this time. To simply be which I am. The oh my. As a dream I'm going to stay the space one. Who's going to be to. Just to. I just want funds to be the place not to do.

00:01:50:29 - 00:02:00:53
Unknown
Just.

00:02:00:58 - 00:02:46:10
Unknown
An empty set me free. Bring to life what no one else could see. Now look up to the screen. My greatest power is leaving me I wish I could tell one day I'm alive. There's a mirror. Stay in the space. Put one to the. Way. Just time. Just one for me. Trey, do you know how to go? Be.

00:02:46:15 - 00:03:00:55
Unknown
Nothing. I need to go free. Come on, get up to speak. Dream up my.

00:03:01:00 - 00:03:12:36
Unknown
My mind. You me me me me me me me.

00:03:12:41 - 00:03:33:24
Unknown
Me. Gold. My bars. Me stay to stay one just to be free. Just to, Just one fast.

00:03:33:29 - 00:03:37:54
Unknown
Just I go free.

00:03:37:58 - 00:04:13:16
Unknown
Of day. Not me to go. Me, me. You don't want to get up. Just keep breathing out of my mind. Yeah, me. My mind. Yeah. Me. My mind and me I got my mind. Me.

00:04:13:26 - 00:04:39:47
Unknown
Also, I yeah. Thank you. There's a real, And I'm picking up on the song, but there is this dreamy, like, kind of quality that you kind of create with your music. That, I want to know is, is that a deliberate thing that you've gone forward? Have you said, hey, I want to kind of have this feeling.

00:04:39:52 - 00:05:05:15
Unknown
Well, I guess it maybe it's like the Al Green records. That was because he had this ability to. It looks so. It's such a broad palette of expression. And so there's a really sweet right major seventh chords and, and a beautiful like melody that's like on top of us whispering so yeah, I think that's part of it.

00:05:05:15 - 00:05:33:25
Unknown
And, and when I started playing guitar, I'm a little bit of a weird start, because even though I like listening to a lot of rock, when I actually started playing guitar, it didn't take too long until, like, a year in, I, I got the opportunity to study music and, like, in high school, and I had, like a high school program, and it was like 17 hours of music a week.

00:05:33:38 - 00:06:00:33
Unknown
Wow. And the thing is, though, that everybody there was almost like semiprofessional at the time that parents who were musicians and they taught a lot of jazz. So it was like the jazz standards. So my first guitar lesson, my teacher through Satin Doll by Duke Ellington, and I'm looking at this paper and I'm like, what's the seventh going to G 13 and C was a triangle.

00:06:00:38 - 00:06:25:49
Unknown
I was like, that's up to you. Find out and see you next week. Wow. And threw in the water. You threw me in the water. And, in a way, yeah, it was kind of brutal, but it did. I learned a lot diving in, and I just loved those chords. So even though I didn't see myself getting into jazz, I have never been, like, a strong improviser.

00:06:25:54 - 00:06:45:42
Unknown
I love to be a working on it, but but I always love the composition aspect. And with the jazz tunes, it was Charlie Parker, the head that for those who don't know the melody that everybody in the band starts off with before they all go off and solo and stuff. I love those and I love the chord changes.

00:06:45:42 - 00:07:11:02
Unknown
So. So yeah, you know, having a jazz kind of bedrock somewhere or I guess I thought all of those are the chords that are here in the Stevie Wonder song is very much yeah, yeah. And but that opens up the song so much more, right? Finding those kind of chords, than just your typical, meat and potatoes.

00:07:11:07 - 00:07:40:57
Unknown
Yeah. You know, sort of, chords. Would you say that, you know, with your songwriting in that, do you go about picking the melody first or are you, kind of a lyricist at heart or what? What comes into your mind when you start? Yeah. So when I started out, I was probably chords, and then I kind of did the same thing that people throw in all the jazz chords thing, you know, a whole kitchen sink, right?

00:07:41:02 - 00:08:16:39
Unknown
It's better to less is more. Have a direction, have some purpose with those chords. Nowadays I think because lyrics have always been, for some reason, the hardest thing for me, even though I've worked as a freelance writer and maybe is perfectionism. I don't know, maybe it's like Joni Mitchell, she can write this, know, maybe it's like being trilingual, that sometimes I constantly search for the words, rich notes I'm always asking him about, like, how do you say this?

00:08:16:43 - 00:08:42:21
Unknown
But, lyrics have always been harder. So in recent years, it's almost like I've made myself start with the lyrics, okay? Because chords, melodies, they just. There's an easier thing. They kind of. Yeah, fall into place. I might ponder, you know, of course. Yeah. You tweak and you chisel it a little bit, but. Or you can come up with a great melody and then you're like, okay.

00:08:42:30 - 00:09:10:04
Unknown
Yeah. And then, you know, then languishes for a while and then you're like, oh man, now I've got five melodies in search of lyric. Write it for me. That would be a nightmare to have like great melodies and then try to squeeze in the lyrics. But I mean, I think that's what a lot of writers do. When I worked first and second record that I did, the God, I Can't Remember the name of the world is winning the second record.

00:09:10:04 - 00:09:34:30
Unknown
And, lovely, lovely. Joan, thank you very much. And see her. We make a good team. You guys make a good team, he said. I like so many of the lyrics. Not all, but many of them was Paul Mansour. Who's a writer in Idaho. And he is like, great with lyrics. And, he would often send me like, a verse or, you know, a title or.

00:09:34:33 - 00:10:08:56
Unknown
Yeah, how do you know? But Paul, I met Paul at, in L.A. there was a songwriting workshop for these workshops, you know, in life, you know, and it was, Louise Goffin, who's the daughter of Carole King and Gerry Goffin. Wow. She's an artist, too. Okay. And, so she had a workshop, and I thought this was at a point where, I think being consistent with music was a challenge for me.

00:10:08:56 - 00:10:30:05
Unknown
And sometimes we would be in a band, and if somebody it couldn't be in the band, isn't it kind of derail the me? Sure. And that was like a lesson to myself was like, keep, you know, the shit going right, right, right. And that in the process there was, yeah, a bit of a wake up call, like a heart problem.

00:10:30:05 - 00:10:56:21
Unknown
And I ended up in the E.R. and, and it was nothing like, serious since it. I'm fine now, but that kind of. Wow, life could be over made me. Yeah. I want to leave here with regrets. So get serious. And I thought, okay, instead of being band, it'll be solo artist Nikki O'Neill is. And I'm just accountable to myself and, and and stuff.

00:10:56:21 - 00:11:24:38
Unknown
And in that process, Louise Goffin had the songwriting workshop and I'm at all their, cool. And do you guys still try to co-write or you can do it this, this last record that we, we've done, the stories I only tell my friends, I wanted to see if I could write the lyrics myself. Yeah. So I just wanted to see because there was just certain topics that I felt like I'm probably the best one to to do it, and.

00:11:24:38 - 00:11:52:27
Unknown
But I'm absolutely open to write. Well, I like to at least how you're trying to balance words out for Rich and to make them fit. And let's let's hone in on that for a little bit, because lyric writing is always a challenge. Yeah. You know, when you go around starting to craft a song. Yeah. And now you've made this commitment, which I give you a lot of kudos for, for saying that I am going to start with lyrics and then find the melody.

00:11:52:36 - 00:12:23:32
Unknown
Yeah. What how do you pick your topic? I mean, what what is it? Do you walk out the door and go. Sometimes it's prompts, sometimes it's something you read in the paper, or conversation. I see the more eventful and interesting life here. Not necessarily drama, that's for sure. They know that just seeing things, getting out, experiencing things, go see art like do not an art stuff too.

00:12:23:32 - 00:12:45:48
Unknown
If you want to. Just to feed your mind. Because I'm pretty tired of my thoughts. Sure, times prompt could be a good thing. Do you actively do it or do you say, I'm going to let something come to me and have that that I let that happen to? But I often have to coax myself okay.

00:12:45:53 - 00:13:06:21
Unknown
Which I think is a good thing because I think a lot of artists don't coach or push themselves really, and say, hey, I'm gonna sit down and I, it's make a song. It's weird with me. I just, I need to do that. I will like book gigs and and then I'm like, okay, we're going to like, write some new tunes and we need some uptempo numbers.

00:13:06:21 - 00:13:27:04
Unknown
Okay. So that'll be my incentive to tell. Like, you know, we're going to have a new song for this show. Okay. Yeah. So this is interesting because you know, what I'm hearing from both of you is when you're setting a show or an album. Yeah. You guys say, hey, you know, we need to have an up tempo. We need to hear this.

00:13:27:07 - 00:13:55:06
Unknown
Yeah. Sad song. We need to hear that danceable number that, you know, it's going to be the earworm for everyone. So when you do that and notice how I just threw like, melodic to good things to it. Yeah, but picking lyrics for those kind of things and, you know, do you take out a sheet of paper? Are you the type of person that sits down at a desk?

00:13:55:10 - 00:14:20:21
Unknown
Are you that kind of person that has a, guess what? I'm not, you know, the jewel. And, I just saw the shopping cart go by with nobody, pushing it. You okay? And, you know, I mean, I don't know, I guess you actually are reading us pretty well. Okay, that is him. I so with lyrics, I just, I don't want things to get too crafty.

00:14:20:25 - 00:14:44:00
Unknown
Yeah. Because it's like you want the muse to read or to write, but I know with me. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I can just see example. And it doesn't seem to change with the years with more experience. But you know, with that songwriting workshop with Steve. So every week we're like, okay, right off to the workshop, let's get together.

00:14:44:05 - 00:15:16:21
Unknown
Okay. Here's, you know, the prompt, and I will be trying to scribble stuff as a cafe. Everything's crap. And I'm kind of tortured like that for the first three days at day for something like snaps. And it's fun. And then I'm like, oh, why don't I do this more? Know? And, you just write like I got a complete song in a day and it's back and it's like you inspired and others that work for you.

00:15:16:25 - 00:15:34:30
Unknown
Well, I actually keep a list on my phone of topics. Okay. So because they can come from anywhere at any time and you don't always have time to stop them, like, yeah, that address it right then. But it can be like, oh that's a cool idea. And then I do have the time when I'm in that headspace, I scroll through the list and something usually jumps out at me.

00:15:34:30 - 00:15:52:20
Unknown
Some of some of the time. I don't know what I think in here, but but sometimes, depending on what mood I'm in and what's going on, like something will jump out and you're like, oh yeah, and can, can I go back to an old list too? But sometimes I just feel like I see my life experience and like, oh, that's kind of a weird thing.

00:15:52:25 - 00:16:24:21
Unknown
And I feel like I'm getting better as I am not judging yourself, maybe. Or is that that kind of thing of of, it's hiring a little bit. Not so. Yeah. With music, I can be more forgiving. Sure, sure. I you know, one one thing that, I find with a lot of musicians is, a secret with songwriting is to always keep pulling words out, you know, to get down to the the the basics.

00:16:24:25 - 00:16:51:03
Unknown
Because it's amazing how wordy we can get, you know? Oh, yeah. But, you know, I want to once again swing again for the benefit of our, aspiring musicians and songwriters to to hear from you guys. Do you carry around a journal to write stuff down? Oh, yeah. I have, like, millions. Yeah. Okay. And I they're not like, necessarily to keep.

00:16:51:08 - 00:17:11:52
Unknown
It's like the act of holding a pen and putting it to paper. Right. Just. Yeah, it gets me in the zone. Okay. Yeah. So I'm, I sure as the hermit, you say a bunch of times, like, if you stop songwriting for a while and you turn out to turn the rusty faucet back on, there's, like, brown water comes out your stomach at the beginning.

00:17:11:53 - 00:17:33:18
Unknown
Interesting. Yeah, but if you if you're just, you keep showing up, it gets easier. Yeah. I, you know, the brown water thing in that happens, it doesn't change just because you're been at it for a long period of time. For me, it's still like the same crap, like four days of, I can't find the words. Yeah.

00:17:33:18 - 00:18:02:08
Unknown
And I was like, oh, it's fun. Like, Lee is getting excited by the prospect of of song collections and synonyms and metaphors that I didn't think about. That surprised me. Like, so it's like you're opening some channel of some sort. Yeah. But keeping keeping like, I like how you both then are keeping lists in your own right, of lyrics or ideas or things like that in which, you can go back and draw.

00:18:02:09 - 00:18:26:52
Unknown
Is there a Nikki O'Neil? Boneyard of tools and, you know, half skirted melodies or things where I always like thinking about it, like, a junkyard for musicians, where they, they say, hey, you know, I need this alternator. And here was this song. Yeah. It doesn't exist for either of you. They're a little like riffs and snippets that.

00:18:26:53 - 00:18:50:30
Unknown
Yeah, there's a boneyard for that not complete song so much because now is seem like something is not going anywhere. Then I'll just. Yeah, walk away from it if it's not at best. But the best story I have is probably a riff that I wrote when I was 17. Yeah, yeah, I wrote it when I was 17 and it showed up on a record 25 years later or something.

00:18:50:34 - 00:19:13:19
Unknown
It's like, isn't that cool? Yeah, I like that 17 year old Nikki. Yeah. I mean, that gift to into in the future. Into the future. Yeah. Which I think is, one of the amazing things way, you know, I always think that it's smart to keep melodies or keep things around. You just never know. You know what's going to happen.

00:19:13:24 - 00:19:40:25
Unknown
Yeah, but, with you guys working, you know, as a husband, wife team. Yeah. Do you guys say we're going to, you know, craft together or is it, you know, Rich, you go to the park today and, okay, here's here's the challenge for both of us. We're going to take an X topic. We need this for the album, blah, blah.

00:19:40:29 - 00:20:03:38
Unknown
You know, give us a little insight into what you guys. How are you guys? Cool. Yeah. You know, I tried writing lyrics with Nikki before. Oh, doesn't tend to go. Well, it's it's a much better know vocal also. Yeah, I like to what I call interesting. Okay. How do you a couple.

00:20:03:43 - 00:20:27:22
Unknown
So and it's an instantaneous head because we, we meet each other at the age of like arranging stage or. Well, when I have the raw sketch like the, the voice recording was like from start to finish and maybe I have some riffs, hooks for a guitar. Then we'll meet and we'll play it together. We'll kind of like, okay, let's what's should the group be?

00:20:27:34 - 00:20:49:13
Unknown
Okay, I will develop that. And then it goes to the band for the band gets like raw. We all get that kitchen tables recording. You know, I could hear it from a very early stage and then to see it grow and morph. Yeah. Like, yeah, we, we kind of like, did it together ourselves. So it would be sort of we have the right kind of feel the tempo.

00:20:49:18 - 00:21:10:22
Unknown
So you guys are benevolent in the way that you present your songs to your band, in the sense that you're going to allow them to have a crack at ancient times. And mostly, you know, not just their time, but we think that we love their ideas and improv positions. Christmas Owl, Teddy Meyers and I this for on bass.

00:21:10:22 - 00:21:34:15
Unknown
Yeah, the because for me, I've always thought I want to play with musicians who could sing like arrangers, and I don't want to tell them what to do because there's a beauty, like, not controlling stuff. I've seen people who do that, and it doesn't sound right. Situation. And, and I can't play keys. I've.

00:21:34:19 - 00:22:01:23
Unknown
Yeah, my bass playing. I've never hired myself as a bass player, so. So I want that input for those fingerprints. So is it up to a point like, you know, let's do a hypothetical. If the keyboardist is like, you know, oh, you know, I hear a ragtime. You know what I do? Are you guys able to, you know, some maybe occasionally there might be like a oh, it's going into the wrong direction.

00:22:01:23 - 00:22:28:07
Unknown
Okay. But I can understand why their impulse was what it was because I'm kind of like, I like, speaks like layers where, maybe if it's just a single guitar, a melody, maybe it sounds like a country town, but I want to put an R&B group. Okay, so once I have those layers so at a certain point they know who you guys are and they think, you know, I think they need it now.

00:22:28:07 - 00:22:51:27
Unknown
Later when we they're all countryside native and they're all contributed together to like we are because we went through this experience too. And we we change what we change bands from from L.A. to Chicago. Yeah. That was a whole thing. That must have been hard. Yeah, yeah. Start over. Yeah, absolutely. We had such a great the band in L.A., we.

00:22:51:27 - 00:23:08:49
Unknown
And we played shows together, and then we played mostly live in the studio with, you know, right, overdubs. And that's where I was like, oh, that's how I love to record for this band. It just took a while after the pandemic to meet the musicians, but then I was so happy because I found a guitarist who loves soul music.

00:23:08:54 - 00:23:33:09
Unknown
Nice. Yeah, he was like, so it's not just like, oh yeah, I can do a few one on one selects or something. He loves it and you don't have to discuss. It's just like our instincts are it you having a band, Curtis Mayfield friends like, yeah, we can we can talk a little more about, want you to play, think of a song that you guys want to,

00:23:33:14 - 00:24:12:41
Unknown
And then we'll we'll talk a little more about, you know, the complexities of of maintaining the band, and, and then I'll probably circle back to songwriting. I think, listening to the way you guys, you craft the melodies and stuff, such an important thing for people to, to listen to inspirations like Al Green and, you know, Santana and all these other kind of influences, but also be brave and find those jazz chords and and master.

00:24:12:53 - 00:24:34:27
Unknown
Yeah, but, and finding your own voice eventually. Yes. You kind of have your influences, but then it's like, who am I in the midst of all that? That's actually like, that's true to that and make friends with your voice because you probably write a song early on and, like hear Aretha Franklin or Chaka Khan, and then it's time to go to the studio.

00:24:34:31 - 00:25:00:10
Unknown
They're not there. They're just me. Like. And I'd be like, oh my God, I can't like, sing this. And I adjusted my melody, rhyming or my songs to fit more in my range. Right. You know, I also, I do like to challenge myself and stretch, but but be coming friends with your voice, friends with your stage persona or the way presents are ready.

00:25:00:13 - 00:25:32:48
Unknown
Were you right? Right. Just you write it because there's only one version of you, and you just try to be a better version of yourself, right? I love I love that you know, understanding your voice, you know, it was, Caruso that said, does the man have the voice for the voice of the man? And that's, you know, that's, one of those things that can pertain even to, you know, songwriting or math to as an old school.

00:25:32:53 - 00:26:05:09
Unknown
So that's that's an important little, nugget of truth that you just gave us. And, give us a song, and then we're going to come back and we have a lot, to to talk to, here with, Rich, with Kowski and Nicki O'Neil and, Nicki O'Neil with her full band as well, that, and you see on this the, website, check out where she's playing and definitely check out her albums

00:26:05:39 - 00:26:43:19
Unknown
Open the blind. Got the light and start making tea in the kitchen. You're on. Read the paper. I read the first song, Allison Candy. And the more you struck it on the floor, you can hear the morning you got me room. All the outside.

00:26:43:24 - 00:27:32:10
Unknown
Way to sweep the sidewalk I the bar. You. You broke my hand. Stuck candy out the morning I'm so calm. Broadway. Candy. All morning. You. You got me rolling. You some see what you came. Come on. The light will move. I saw all I can get. The piece of baby. That's where I come up. Look. Oh my God.

00:27:32:15 - 00:27:39:44
Unknown
Score! Waiting to get you I moving.

00:27:39:49 - 00:27:47:09
Unknown
Pictures comes alive and I listen.

00:27:47:14 - 00:27:53:47
Unknown
I'm stuck in I'm going to.

00:27:53:52 - 00:28:07:32
Unknown
You can I make more than I can now come on in. So you going?

00:28:07:37 - 00:28:23:32
Unknown
Can I come on in? You got me going. Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. So can you.

00:28:23:37 - 00:28:34:16
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. Come on. Yeah. You got me moving.

00:28:34:21 - 00:28:38:41
Unknown
Come.

00:28:38:41 - 00:29:03:30
Unknown
Hello, Polly Chase. Presenting artwork by Martin McCormick. There are many reasons to buy art. You might choose a piece for financial investment or to put the finishing touch on interior decoration. You can buy work because it speaks to you or you are a friend of the artist. And then there is art that you buy for the sheer fun of it.

00:29:03:35 - 00:29:32:20
Unknown
These pop art portraits in the Man and Dog series definitely fall into the fun category. Each acrylic on canvas measures 12 by nine. They can be purchased individually or as a complete set of four. They are a playful testament to companionship that stands the test of time and a vast wardrobe. Check out this painting and more of Marty's artwork on Martin mccormick.com.

00:29:32:25 - 00:29:41:23
Unknown
You can also email me with your interests at Marty Fine Art at gmail.com.

00:29:41:28 - 00:29:43:37
Unknown
Or.

00:29:43:37 - 00:30:10:51
Unknown
Mother of pearl on the headstock. Where could that be? Yeah, I know. But I want to point that out because I think when it comes to writing stuff, one wouldn't think that that would be something that would, you know, evoke an emotion, right? But it does, you know, and it does even more so when you have the melody you know, put to it.

00:30:10:52 - 00:30:40:01
Unknown
And, and, you know, these, these melodies that you hear of, I would have to ask you, you know, do you ever write sad songs? No, absolutely. I do. Because you're you're upbeat. Times are killing. I mean, they really are. I mean, it's just I can't wait until I tell you. Oh, well, I don't know, your podcast. Really depressing songs because, but, you know, I think there's more than ever.

00:30:40:01 - 00:31:07:25
Unknown
There's a place in this world right now for this kind of, energy being put out, you know, and, Yeah, but finding that. Tell us. Just give us a little insight to, how did you pick up those works? Well, okay, so actually, to connect back to episode one or the previous one. Yeah. You you asking me, you know, are there ever, like, a boneyard for song ideas?

00:31:07:25 - 00:31:30:05
Unknown
And I toyed around with this phrase, candy up a morning. I had no idea what it means. One day I wanted to do something with that. It sounded a little psychedelic. Rose a little bit. Yeah. I loved, like, the names of, Guitar Pete. So, like, the colors of guitars. You look in the catalog and there's a candy apple red.

00:31:30:10 - 00:31:50:30
Unknown
And for me, living in Sweden, it was like a new world. I, you know, and lived in Sweden for so long. So. Yeah. Yeah, it felt like a new language to me. And it was just fascinating. So. And I just kind of went along with that and, and then I saw Candy Apple. Morning. Oh what does that mean.

00:31:50:34 - 00:32:10:25
Unknown
And then I don't know I just started thinking about I used to be a night owl, but I've become a morning person and maybe after being introduced to yoga and meditation. I don't do so much anymore. But I remember they would always say it's the hour of the stage, the, on the floor. Yeah.

00:32:10:27 - 00:32:31:17
Unknown
Like meditate and I don't get it before, but but I do love on the days of Blank Slate. Yeah. And. Yeah, even when traveling, like, we went to Venice, we went to Italy on our honeymoon, and Venice was one of the stops, and. Yeah, we both woke up jetlagged. It was like, five in the morning.

00:32:31:22 - 00:32:56:27
Unknown
Can't sleep. Okay, let's get out. Pitch black. We're walking over bridges and canals and stuff, and the workers are pulling up in Boston and to, to and Montreal and the and it's all the time of day, though, right? They call it cancer. It was. Yeah. And that happened to me in New York too. I like to get up and have because of jet lag, but just getting up and and that's such a hustle and bustle city.

00:32:56:32 - 00:33:26:53
Unknown
But in the morning it's like really there's like the the morning club. It's like, oh, you're here to, I guess help people when they like exercise. They are like morning exercisers or dog walkers. Sure. So there's just I wanted to kind of play on that. It's it's a beautiful song and it just reminds me of, like, you know, my being young, you know, the, the and maybe Carole King ish in a lot of ways, too.

00:33:26:57 - 00:33:51:34
Unknown
Carole King says. Yeah, like, went to the Brill Building. When I went to New York, it was like hallowed ground. Oh, yeah. For an hour ago. And I was like, oh, learn now. Yeah, yeah. Initially, Carole King. What what does her daughter say about her mom like. Was there anything. I mean, that's interesting. A lot of people who aren't there wanted some people maybe just wanted to hear her stories about her parents.

00:33:51:36 - 00:34:13:17
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's when you have somebody that's like. I'm so glad that you. Yeah. You know, I didn't have that famous person in my life. Yeah. You know, because they can change your life completely. Yeah, she seems to me. Seems to. I mean, my impression is loving and acceptance and have a great relationship with her parents.

00:34:13:17 - 00:34:35:29
Unknown
And so she's doing their own thing, and she's doing amazing under our name, and I'm. Good. You know, but, Yeah, I, you know, you mentioned Carole King and Paul McCartney. To me, it always felt like, like hearing their albums when I drive car at night, it's like a friendly voice in the night. And especially with times like this.

00:34:35:33 - 00:35:09:35
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the thing about all those musicians you just mentioned is it I think it it's the pop sensibility and I, I personally feel like pop that kind of, is always underrated and it's always considered like, the, the ugly stepchild of serious musicians. It doesn't mean nothing could be further from the truth. I mean, a well-crafted pop song is those usually are the songs that stay with you and and look at the great school kids.

00:35:09:40 - 00:35:38:49
Unknown
Who are they listening to? The Beatles. They're not listening to, you know, you know, I'm not saying in case I offend somebody. One thing that popped into my head when just listening you sing that song or that, you know, does she ever sing in Swedish? That I've gotten that question before and when I grew up in Sweden with specially with the music I liked back then, it was kind of thing.

00:35:39:04 - 00:35:57:37
Unknown
Now I don't get to write in Swedish. Good. Right. English. Well, that's what the cool bit. Yeah. And everybody, you know, it was almost like fanatics, right, for those guys. Right? And, but there was, of course, a movement of music that where they were very much about writing in Swedish and through a lot of music critics are like that.

00:35:57:51 - 00:36:21:07
Unknown
That's shallow stuff. But yeah, I never did. I sometimes got the suggestion, why don't you try it if you're, like, stuck on the words. Maybe this is a good piece of advice for people who come from a different country, but language is their main language to just to open up the ideas. Don't search for words. Write it down in Swedish.

00:36:21:08 - 00:36:43:05
Unknown
And, I'm going to give an advice to myself and I you you're going to read what someone has suggested. That's really okay. I mean, in some ways I think it would be very intriguing if, if even, you know, just a line and. Yeah, that that talk about, you know, just, drawing in your listener to say, what the hell is that?

00:36:43:10 - 00:37:18:42
Unknown
You know what? What is she referring to? And why did she refer to that in that language? You know, but that being said, you know, I'll, I'll say one thing just on the on the note of that topic, too, that sometimes a lot of people don't know about it. But when I'm about to record a, like the vocals for a song like this one or there's there are other songs I sometimes have a Swedish artist like in mind, so it's often music from childhood songs and yeah, it's like they're troubadours or.

00:37:18:46 - 00:37:47:20
Unknown
Yeah, like, yeah, well, writers and yeah, I mean, like that. And it's often, maybe a slight naivete, vulnerability or like, it's okay to be upbeat and it's a bit childlike because there's so much darkness and cynicism and I, I have plenty of that. Sure. It might not be obvious when you hear these songs, but, there's definitely that side of my personality.

00:37:47:20 - 00:38:16:23
Unknown
But I think that other side, the Paul McCartney's and the Carole King's, I need them to have faith in the in the world, right? Yeah. You know what? It I think you you brought up the word faith. I think in a lot of ways that's that that spiritual aspect of music is what is so important is, that you are giving people the faith that to go on, it's going to be okay.

00:38:16:28 - 00:38:52:44
Unknown
Some of them, you know, even though we don't have a clue, really, but still might as well, you know, fake it til you make it kind of thing. As far as the musical thing, when you guys, you know, you guys have, taken on, a Herculean task, I would say the idea of, like, the care and feeding of a band, and, you know, when you're and I, I like the fact that you guys have, nurtured along with the, the bandmates to have their own individual, you know, input contributions.

00:38:52:44 - 00:39:20:46
Unknown
And so what advice do you would you give to somebody that says, hey, you know, I want to be like Nicky O'Neil and and, I want to be, you know, like rich and and start my, you know, a band, you know? Yeah. And I'm going to marry the drummer. It's always a good idea, you know, yeah.

00:39:20:51 - 00:39:46:47
Unknown
I mean, it's so and mean. Let's let's just focus for a little bit. The the nuts and bolts of of survival in this, this, you know, business for the last part of this, podcast. It's it's difficult. Right. Holding it can be. Yeah. And I mean, I've been in other bands or have had, you know, some touring situations where I toyed with, you know.

00:39:46:51 - 00:40:06:49
Unknown
Yeah, it wasn't my band and not my music. And if you don't like them or if they're fighting, and there's some I just. Yeah, especially when I get older, like, I have no time for that. Right. When you're younger, maybe you think, oh, wow, I guess I need to put up with this in order to get my break.

00:40:06:49 - 00:40:29:16
Unknown
Or at least you can gather my experience and get my opportunities. So, I don't know, like picking your band mates is is pretty important to that, you know, so they can play in a way that you, you know, will help, your songs make them sound as good as you want them to think of you, and then do you envision them?

00:40:29:21 - 00:40:57:53
Unknown
But a personality type that they're an easy hang, as we know, of those who make a living and who are really like, you know, do it successfully, usually really nice to be around not everybody, right? Many of them are, because they understand, like one of the challenges is tour bus together in the studio or right, right. Or just back the stage waiting to get up and play.

00:40:57:54 - 00:41:19:04
Unknown
And you want to get along and, you know, we touched on a little bit, but I just want to go back to this, notion of, you know, your some of your band mates, they play in other bands, things like that. Yeah. So, you know, it comes up to support themselves. So how do you, you know, how do you get them to commit then to the cost?

00:41:19:16 - 00:41:41:24
Unknown
Just I think yeah, that can be challenging. And we've had some musicians that came through early on where they were like, well, how come you're not doing the top 40 type covers? Why are you doing such obscure covers? And and they were antsy and they had kids and they had family to feed. So they went on to full time cover band sometimes.

00:41:41:24 - 00:42:14:26
Unknown
Yeah. There have been certain musicians where if they're very busy and active, cover bands, they're not going to have time. Right? So you gotta find the people that they found a way to support themselves, but they want the original music situation where they can express themselves. And yeah, for me, it's always been, the most important goal has been trying to write as good songs as you can and try to write good arrangements, because that seems to draw a good musician.

00:42:14:26 - 00:42:37:07
Unknown
Yes, they want to be part of that. Yeah. And he said it beautifully because that's, that's actually, some of our band mates that came to us like I have the, the money gigs and the cover gigs and all that. When I'm looking for a project that I can sink into, really contributing. Yeah. We're like, great.

00:42:37:07 - 00:43:21:50
Unknown
Well, that's that's what we are. Well, it's it's so important what you guys are doing as far as creating original music in the style of some of the, you know, masters, obviously influenced, but definitely yours and definitely yours. Coming. You know, percolating through and, and, you know, but, having, band mates and it's, it's difficult, but I think you're touching on a good thing that, you know, trying to find those people that are at a point in their lives where they are going to get the kind of spiritual nourishment out of an original project, and you look at their financials, see what they're doing in order to make it happen.

00:43:22:01 - 00:43:49:04
Unknown
Yeah, it's it's a balancing act because some, you know, it's it's hard to get, people to commit. Yeah. You know, so that's why the husband wife duo is, pretty killer. Yeah. Well, when you think about it, because it's it's hard to. Yeah, yeah. Either easier, you know, one of the guys is booked and then we'll do that, or I'll look at the situation and I'll say, you know, this isn't pay enough for them.

00:43:49:04 - 00:44:13:32
Unknown
It's not worth for them to schlep. To turn down potentially a different game that would play more. Right. We'll do it and I'm fine. Like I just you know one fan out of time. Yeah. Right. One fan. And I think you know sometimes it shows up I mean it really it can be the most you think it's the most like low key gig.

00:44:13:37 - 00:44:42:20
Unknown
And there's somebody there who I mean that's happened to us some nights or something. Oh, right. Turn right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Sure. Like you with the Trivium, right? Yeah. That couple of times you just don't know. And that's the, that's that weird, you know, muse, how the muse works with us, to. You just don't know who is going to be in the room listening.

00:44:42:27 - 00:45:05:24
Unknown
Yeah. I had a friend who played, it was a there was a diner in L.A. where they had, like, a jam. He's a really good guitarist. Well, there's a movie director who's like, oh, he would be great to play. And this Laurel Canyon, a movie. You got to play with Eric Clapton and Jacob Dylan and people like that.

00:45:05:24 - 00:45:31:58
Unknown
So. Yeah. So you never know, which is, a good point, for encouragement for people that, you can never look at it from the prism of, of of, you know, this this isn't an important. Yeah, it's I think it's important. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Especially like, not as, I mean, but we're in a day and age where people pull out their phone and take you.

00:45:32:03 - 00:45:59:05
Unknown
Out. Sure. You wish it so? Well, they have no side, you know. And but but you are a breaking point teacher, and they don't treat their own as good as any kind of, because any, any of you could get to any years. Anyone I know, some musician, even the people who are touring. There's always like every room is different in how you read the crowd and and what brings out of you, what songs you might choose or how you choose to sing them.

00:45:59:05 - 00:46:37:53
Unknown
Everything is, if you choose to look at it that way, it can be, actually for sure. One more nuts, more question for you guys. And, how do you guys, go about budgeting a musician's life for you guys as a couple? Do you guys, you know, and I'm not talking about like, oh, you know, you know, we only have three gigs this month or that sort of thing, but, you know, that that mindset of like, how do you, you know, you say you guys have a house because I know bills, things like that.

00:46:37:57 - 00:47:03:42
Unknown
What what kind of secrets have you guys discovered, or can you pass along 1 or 2 secrets as far as trying to keep your sanity in such a as a quick, sandy kind of world that is independent music, right. And I've done music full time, and I've had the experiences of being pro for being a freelance writer and hustling, and it was people handle it differently.

00:47:03:42 - 00:47:48:02
Unknown
I got super stressed out, and then it was difficult for me to write and be like, but, yeah, sometimes, like I said, there's some experimentation with day jobs nowadays. Translator and interpreter Swedish. And it's a company that does a lot of like, philanthropic work. So one worthy cause. Yeah, sure. I'm surrounded by a lot of non-music people who are on their career path in nonprofit, and I'm the oddball musician who just happens to speak really good Swedish and, insert them that way, but but it's, you know, many, many of my friends in LA who are solo artists who are, you know, it costs money to record an album, hire

00:47:48:02 - 00:48:16:36
Unknown
musicians, get publicists to try and get it out there, get it played on the radio, or you going to get the money from it, right? I unfortunately don't have the talents of, like, running my own studio. I kind of learned that early on I was too broke to do it first. And then I thought, if I, like, spend all my energy there, I might be mediocre at best because I'm not very good with tech stuff.

00:48:16:41 - 00:48:40:14
Unknown
So I kind of, yeah, I got the job and we're good. Yeah, we do. We play the shows, you pay the guys their share, we split everything equally. And, and you and I, and we put our, like, shares into an album fund. It all goes back into our. Okay, keep the hard news and plow it back into the the dream.

00:48:40:21 - 00:49:12:28
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. Well, I want you guys to, play us out of before, you do that. Have you achieved your happiness? I don't think it's, mountain top that you gets you instead. I think that, yeah, it doesn't seem, you know, I've had I've had some experiences where you've reached some sort of peak. And then it plays out its thing and it goes into a decline.

00:49:12:38 - 00:49:40:13
Unknown
Naturally. Everything is a nice. And if I'm the next thing. But I think like finding the joy in the journey and we might sound cliche but it's really worth it. That's, that's really where it's all because if you don't enjoy the process of doing it. Yeah. That's kind of where it all begins. Yeah I'll definitely say because I agree it can sound like a cliche, but I'll just take a very real example.

00:49:40:18 - 00:50:06:20
Unknown
When the album, when we had the very last studio session, I was sad that that aspect was going to be gone. Some of us like, yeah, maybe there might be a last second spontaneous burst of like an idea that all that magic that comes that that was over and then I knew, okay, then there's photos. Okay, well, that's kind of creative, but not really songwriting.

00:50:06:20 - 00:50:31:12
Unknown
Now it's getting more removed for me musically. Video yeah, same thing. And then it goes into marketing and which is important and things like that. But I understand why people like Neil Young throw themselves into the next creative project for sure, because that's something I lost that. Yeah, there's, there's a high also that and I think it's a, it's a healthy high.

00:50:31:16 - 00:51:11:17
Unknown
Yeah. Sure. There there might be the frustrating few days of getting into that, but. Oh yeah, I'm not like that. The process isn't always easier. Yeah. No. Right. Definitely not. I mean, and it's the same with me when I write articles, stories for magazines, it's also like cursing for five days. I'm sure, like, yeah, well, I, I, salute your journey, and and I people, approach, you know, to, being, singer songwriters and living your life, you know, as musicians and, you know, uncompromisingly.

00:51:11:17 - 00:51:41:47
Unknown
So to which is nice. You know, I'm very refreshing because so many people are like, yeah, but, you know, yeah, I'm a musician, but, you know, that sort of thing. But, I don't hear that from you guys. And so the very honest to God last question is, what then? You know, what is it that you want people to remember about Mickey O'Neill and Richie Koski?

00:51:41:47 - 00:51:52:21
Unknown
What do you guys what do you want them to remember about you guys?

00:51:52:26 - 00:52:21:59
Unknown
So big words. I've had so many experiences of creating something from nothing and where it's taking me, experiences and meeting people that I could never have imagined. And that's a beautiful thing. And I didn't have resources. Just started with whatever I had. Yeah, so I did. Yeah. Do what you love to be surprised when doors open.

00:52:22:11 - 00:52:51:22
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, thank you to both of you. Yeah. What a what a, is sublime honor to be able to meet both of you. Likewise. Please play this out and, pick a song, and, once again, you guys, don't forget to check, Nikki's website. And, don't forget to, as always, support your independent musicians.

00:52:51:27 - 00:52:56:19
Unknown
These are the ones that are changing the world. All right, let's give us some of them.

00:53:03:53 - 00:53:36:17
Unknown
What do you. This one the partnership for me. That was your thing. I'm still me. Was always. There won't be the same stuff between. I hope that keeps on moving. But in this next day, I'm the best shape. I'm stronger than any dreamer. Things I'm gonna be. So let's do the math for us. Because all I want to be is your company.

00:53:36:18 - 00:53:54:09
Unknown
Yeah. So put me in your love for me I love me. Where is your love?

00:53:54:14 - 00:54:24:02
Unknown
Where? Mom told me I was, go to set if I can make it true. I have. That's right. I straddle. You, honey, by my side like.

00:54:24:07 - 00:54:56:49
Unknown
You. Please let me get me my people for me want to find someone to care. To be with you and your favorite I do I, you love you. I would make sure to bring some list. The Megaforce us all on me is yours.

00:54:56:54 - 00:55:15:11
Unknown
Want me your all would be. I'll be home. Oh.

00:55:15:16 - 00:55:54:56
Unknown
No one would be good for action. You suck and I'm gonna kick it. It would give me some satisfaction if I let you, baby. For my man here. Oh, baby is yours. All for me is your. I'll be all I want to be. All I want to be I want you to be. For me all want to keep it all want me, all for me.

00:55:55:01 - 00:56:13:13
Unknown
You want me to come for me. It's all your all over me. All I'll be all over.

00:56:13:18 - 00:56:21:49
Unknown
Me.

00:56:21:49 - 00:56:39:32
Unknown
Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit Martin mccormack.com while there. Sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

00:56:39:37 - 00:56:52:24
Unknown
It's so strong. Spain, we feel, makes no sense at all. The swan song wasn't part of the deal, was no good. All giving no choice. Giving us a.