Strung Out Episode 252: IF MOMMA AIN'T HAPPY-EXPLORING THE MOMCORE REVOLUTION WITH KELLI OWENS HUTTON

Kelli Owens Hutton walks the walk.  A Berklee College of Music graduate, she was signed with Atlantic Records for a while, pursuing the rock and roll dream.  Then life stepped in, (as life has a way of doing) and Kelli found herself married, middle-aged, middle class and a mother.   What's a rocker to do?   Find a genre, that's what.  From her experience as both an artist, a woman and yes, mom she launched MomCore.  

MomCore is hard driving rock n' roll, with punk sensibilities delving into the everyday issues, such as that 12-year-old heading into the teenage years, or the mother-in-law hovering over your shoulder.  Kelli punches out two-minute, jangly guitar laden songs of angst, anger and telling-it-like-it-is music.  Her style (and her genre) not surprisingly resonates with a LOT of women out there.  And men like her style as well.  Working with Producer Liam Davis (also a Chicago-based artist) Owens Hutton put together the EP album Soccer Trophy.  Her style is brass and doesn't shy from the occasional f-bomb, like any good mom who has had it up to here with being everything for everyone 24/7/365. 

Kelli's website is www.kelliowenshutton.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:30:07
Unknown
Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer and musician Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty. Hey, everybody. Glad to have you with us. And we have a great artist with us. And, kind of an unusual artist, too. It. Kelly Owens. Yeah. Kelly Owens.

00:00:30:07 - 00:00:56:42
Unknown
Houghton. That that's on that. Owens. Yeah. And, Kelly, of course, is usually, rocker. But we can only do so much rocking in this house. But, why don't you start us off with this song and, tell me what song you're going to do and plant, and then we'll take it from there. Okay. I'll start with the song called Shut Up, which is being recorded by EP.

00:00:56:47 - 00:01:27:45
Unknown
Super Cool. And, I feel like it sort of encompasses. It was became like the birth of mom for which is this genre that I can't wait to get into. Creative. Yeah. Songs about, you know, being a mom, wife, annoying kids. Right? Yeah. All of the all the things. Okay. So this is shot.

00:01:27:50 - 00:01:36:11
Unknown
Shut up. You shut your face. Don't cry.

00:01:36:15 - 00:02:20:52
Unknown
Shut up! Shut your mouth. You don't know anything. You used to be. So keep. Now you're running down the street of the town. You're only 12 years old. It's up to you now. You shut up for a minute. Just shut up. You gotta get down. Gotta get down. Take a deep breath. Gotta get to the.

00:02:20:56 - 00:02:38:06
Unknown
Time.

00:02:38:10 - 00:03:02:53
Unknown
That's what you want. That's what you. What you want. Is this what you need? I know what you got. I know what you. I know what you know. I know what you.

00:03:02:58 - 00:03:31:42
Unknown
Need. I cried the love this year. It's like, total punk sensibility. Why? Thank you. Yeah, I know. It's so refreshing to hear something that's, punk. That's angry. Yeah. So I realized, as I was saying, I was like, can I swear on this thing? I can swear. I don't know if we'll put it into the family show, but, there's swearing all through the background on the podcast, right?

00:03:31:46 - 00:03:53:47
Unknown
Yeah. Which is that. Yeah. Yeah. What a cool song for you. Because it's, it's being directed toward a 12 year old kid. Yeah. So you're basically kind, but it sounds like at the end, you kind of morphed into the kid. It's, a. Yeah, that's a really, I love that. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:53:55 - 00:04:16:38
Unknown
It was sort of. Yeah. I was very frustrated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so let's let's back up just a little bit then and talk about you. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Glenview, Illinois. Yes. I was born in Chicago, but I grew up in Miami. And I like how you say that, because when people say, where are you from?

00:04:16:46 - 00:04:41:02
Unknown
I'm from Chicago in there, you know, with you and you. Yeah, exactly. You started a band with the fact check us. Oh, yeah. That's where our band as an Irish band got started. Grant environment back in the 80s. Yeah, because when I was gone, I was going to be sneaking in there with my fake I.D.. It's that, grandpa's is actually, so great.

00:04:41:07 - 00:05:09:39
Unknown
Very cool place and was a great place for music, but. Yeah. All right, so you're the suburban young woman. You grow up there? Yeah. And, you know what got you into music? Is there music in your family? Is there? You know, tell us about your, you know, growing up. Yeah. My, I grew up basically going to jazz shows.

00:05:09:44 - 00:05:32:51
Unknown
I was in Township High School and Northwestern University because my dad was the head of both programs there. It was the, conductor and composer and leader of the jazz bands and stuff. So I grew up on it from, like, you know, fading up until I left, going to shows like hearing jazz, basically live music.

00:05:32:56 - 00:05:50:20
Unknown
And, Did he want you to go into jazz? Was there? Well, I like clarinet. I started to play clarinet in fourth grade, and, and I think in his mind, you always thought, oh, she's going to change to, like, tenor and then go in that way. And I didn't I, you know, I played I was basically playing classical clarinet.

00:05:50:20 - 00:06:11:37
Unknown
But I played it for seven years and then I quit my. Oh no, you can't here. Oh good job. Papers, papers and what they do for protecting. Thank you for protecting you here. So, Oh, she complains about it. Nobody listens to me. She's listening. We're listening. Come here, I leave you, we will leave it. So you have.

00:06:11:41 - 00:06:42:38
Unknown
You have this, you know, you have this, upbringing with music. All right. Yeah. And then what about your mom? My mom was the, like, VP of the real estate department. Me second. Okay. Yeah. So we're ended up getting a job during the summers as a teller. Wow. Yeah. In fact, I, I just I just, like, remember this, the very first song that I wrote was called GSP Is not for me.

00:06:42:43 - 00:07:14:51
Unknown
I received for free, which ironically, wasn't used as their jingle. It's like, no, I cannot do this. I cannot do this. Yeah. It's and, you know, and as a musician, I think, you know, there's always that point where you're like, I'm not cut out. And then, yeah, that's straight world. Yeah. But you know, so you pursued music, then, you went to Berkeley, right?

00:07:15:02 - 00:07:34:50
Unknown
Yes. So that was so I quit clarinet my sophomore year in high school because partying was more important to me, and, yeah, and the marching band uniforms weren't cool enough, so it's like, come out. And my dad, I remember he was like, this is such a waste of a talent. He was so violent. He was really, really bummed.

00:07:34:54 - 00:07:39:34
Unknown
That always stuck with me. I remember hearing him trying to kill.

00:07:39:39 - 00:08:04:26
Unknown
So then I, I just, you know, I was always into music, you know, and just would, you know, basically spend, you know, hours by myself in my bedroom, rocking out to whatever I was listening to. Who are you listening to? Then I was listening to the police. I was ironically, like, totally drugs fresh. Okay, that's not that's that's great stuff.

00:08:04:26 - 00:08:25:37
Unknown
Yeah, I used to hide that. And now I'm like, I wear it like a badge because I know. Oh, you know, you're talking about the orchestration. Yeah, exactly. It's funny. You're using your dad's. Yes, exactly. You are like, clearly it went that way to. So I was in to something, you know, so great. I mean, you know, I love Van Halen and I love so I love to be like the big rock, you know?

00:08:25:37 - 00:08:53:40
Unknown
And also the grooves, you know, and hooks, like, I love to pop too. So anything that was like even Madonna, like, just pop stuff like to, you know, and and I don't want to pigeonhole you or anything like that, but was Liz Phair or you know, so that's it's funny that music. So that's why it's funny that you say the punk thing because, I just was like, again, like total mainstream rock, pop.

00:08:53:40 - 00:09:13:53
Unknown
And the Liz Phair thing I didn't really get into until I was living in Boston until, like, she kind of came out a little bit later. Right. Definitely, you know, was behind on behind in a lot of ways recently. I just, I think, you know, because, you know, in some ways, you find it when you're ready. Yeah.

00:09:13:57 - 00:09:40:00
Unknown
Yeah. I don't know for sure how like. Yeah. You know. Yeah. You know, there was I mean, there's tons of great female performers, you know. Yeah. There. But it wasn't like you're trying to carbon copy yourself. You were. Yeah. You were just into music. Yes. And you were finding it on your own terms. Yeah. And of course, it was like the only female stuff was like the Go-Go's, which you just brought up, right?

00:09:40:00 - 00:10:07:46
Unknown
Or, you know, who else would be like, well, Bonnie Raitt is who I kind of figured out how to sing. Like, finally I found somebody that I was like, oh, I don't want to sound like I can sound like this. Yeah. You know, like our voices are kind of similar to. Yeah. So. Yeah. But yeah, mostly male dominated, like, and black Rock is still, you know, to some degree male.

00:10:07:51 - 00:10:34:01
Unknown
Yeah. There's the outliers. I mean, there's Patti Smith and some of the others, you know, that, you know, Melissa Etheridge. Yeah. To some degree. But, that's it, you know? Yeah, I work so, I you're in high school, you you when do you go to Berkeley? So that's so that's there was a dinner at my house.

00:10:34:06 - 00:10:51:58
Unknown
I was probably it must have been my junior year or something because it was a conversation about, like, college was like, what are you gonna do? And I'm like, I will never forget because I hadn't been playing music. And I just said, you know, I think I don't I think I might want to like. And my dad, the fork dropped, literally.

00:10:51:59 - 00:11:12:32
Unknown
I was just like, what? You know, I was like, it's the only thing I know. Yeah, it was the only thing I know. It was the only thing I loved and knew how to do and just. And so then I, I wasn't going to go there and clear. Not. So he put me with Allan Swain, who is this incredible piano teacher, artist of instant.

00:11:12:33 - 00:11:38:28
Unknown
I basically got a crash course in piano over that year. He's just like, forget reading because I could read treble clef but not bass clarinet. He's like, let's just get you into chords. And so I basically learned, you know, all the how chords are construction, and also playing jazz standards that he regards, which were incredible. I still have I still have that a lot of that music in his original books that he wrote.

00:11:38:28 - 00:12:00:53
Unknown
And so was the idea just to get you ready for it was. Yeah, it was like, let's just get you, man. And that's going to be your principal instrument. And I was like, wow. Yeah, exactly. So then I auditioned, and because he was such an incredible teacher, because I just focused on those chords, I actually went into, like the second level of, ensembles, you know?

00:12:00:53 - 00:12:19:56
Unknown
So like, because I could records like three, I could read a chart, but don't get me to read music, but charts. I'm good. Yeah. But there was nothing more intimidating than going to that college and walking down the hallway of the practice room. So it's literally piano after piano after piano. It's like a wall of piano sound.

00:12:20:01 - 00:12:38:37
Unknown
I'm going down this hallway, and each one, you know, comes into focus in your ears. Basically like you're walking by, you hear, like, this guy from Japan, you know, who's just, like, blowing. And then this guy from wherever, and you're. And I'm just like, I've been playing for, like, a year in leadership. I'm like, yeah, like, oh my God, it's good.

00:12:38:37 - 00:13:06:27
Unknown
Then I got you go in the room and you hear the person over on this wall and you hear the person on this wall. And I was like, oh, like, I was so intimidated. It was like chopsticks or so. Yeah. I mean, it was so intimidating. Yeah. Kind of interesting, though, that, I mean, you said you got prepped for going in and but then that's, that's just to get your foot in the door and then you're in there, and now you don't have that.

00:13:06:32 - 00:13:23:20
Unknown
I don't have that Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're on your own. I'm totally on my own. So up here, how did you know? How did you survive? Or I barely, Yeah. It's like. So the audition, too. It's funny, because I just remember that I wrote something to that. And so that's kind of when I started to, like, realize, like writing.

00:13:23:20 - 00:13:52:35
Unknown
Right? That is from not for me. I'm just like a little musical thing on piano. And then but navigating Berklee was really challenging, especially then, because it's like late 80s, early 90s and it's like the, you know, talk about harass, the sexual harassment situation. And it was just like it was nuts. But, the other side of that is that you do meet people from all over the world, you know, and it's you.

00:13:52:35 - 00:14:18:43
Unknown
Are you just immersed with Berkeley? You kind of like, you, male dominated college 100%. That's why I said that. Because it was. There was probably nine men to every moment. I mean, there was I mean, I remember, I mean, a handful of us. So, you know, he's fairly sexually frustrated. Still. But, you know, each one of.

00:14:18:48 - 00:14:52:43
Unknown
You have done good. Yeah. I just feel professors. Yes. Oh yeah. So yeah. Like, yeah. It was tough. It was really tough and really, really hard. But this year it's hard to figure out how to navigate, you know, to navigate that. And I think about it, my daughter is, you know, the age that I was in, I'm just like, wow, you know, was this the beginning, middle of your kind of your mom or even before you got, you know, I mean, there was rebelliousness because I would imagine, you know, I mean, you're kind of coming into this situation where you have to swim.

00:14:52:48 - 00:15:11:32
Unknown
Yeah. Harder than a lot of other people who have been, you know, coaxed along. You were thrown into the pool. Yeah. And, I'm just laughing at of cases. Yes. I'm not I've never heard that kind of. Yeah. And that's crazy. Oh, we're just going to throw you into Berkeley. Yeah. And then you're swimming around this thing. Yeah.

00:15:11:37 - 00:15:31:25
Unknown
How did you come? How did you come out of me? I mean, did you come out of it going like, hey, you know what? I'm I'm I've got a full time career coming into music or what? What did you do? What happened? There was a big turning point, which is about halfway through. And see, the head of the performance department, named Rob Rose.

00:15:31:29 - 00:15:57:11
Unknown
He had a wedding band and called something catchy, but it had, like, Kevin Barry in it. Who's this incredible guitar player? It had who also a couple other, like, star type people like, you know, and anyway, so we played he, I got into this band through, you know, just doing some performance stuff. I started to switch into singing more.

00:15:57:16 - 00:16:17:01
Unknown
And basically I just, I joined this band, so we never rehearsed. We would play five gigs a weekend sometimes, all weddings and I, I remember the first time, the first wedding, like, I, you know, we set up the whole thing, and then they feed us right? And I'm like, oh, no, I don't. I'm not eating. I have to sing.

00:16:17:01 - 00:16:40:05
Unknown
And he's like, that'll change, right? He's like, boy, was he right? I was like, yeah, scarfing the food, you know, like free food. Yeah. But yeah, they teach that, you know, eating for gigs, you know? So that's where I really learned, I mean, how to say without monitors how to, like, I sort of harness like, I use that as a, you know, massive rehearsal.

00:16:40:07 - 00:17:02:25
Unknown
Right? For two years I had a car. And so I drove all over, you know, to these days and, and, and we made a ton of money. And then I was really bummed when he was like, I'm done doing that. Like, I was so spoiled because you never rehearsed. We'd read charts and and it was incredible. He picks people at Berklee that were like, you, you, you, you do you want to make a lot of money?

00:17:02:31 - 00:17:20:15
Unknown
Let's go. Yeah. What I mean, wow. So that's that that gave me the confidence to answer your question a long way to say like, oh, I think I think I kind of want to like do this. Yeah, I can like but I don't want to play weddings. I don't want that. You know, that's that's your bootcamp. Yeah, sure.

00:17:20:15 - 00:17:49:19
Unknown
With stuff in bootcamp that every, every good musician has to have some sort of bootcamp. Yeah. And which, they go through, I mean, because otherwise, you know, like you said, just humorous. It is just, you know, the, the power eating, you know, before a gig of that kind of stuff or snapping here. Oh my God. Yeah. You know, and dealing with, an interested audience and a disinterested audience, you know.

00:17:49:19 - 00:18:07:25
Unknown
Oh, that was always. That's funny that you said, because I would be like, I'm going to I'm going to like, I'm going to command, I'm going to figure out how to command and get these people to notice me, you know, and then there would be times that I would be like, I don't want them to notice me. And I'd like recreate the lyrics to where in between my brains to wind between my cheeks and stuff like that.

00:18:07:25 - 00:18:31:26
Unknown
Like you are the wind between, two and when they, they wouldn't notice. But the man would and we'd all laugh. And, you know, I just it just becomes this. Like we're singing this song again. It's a three years later when that video comes. Oh, yeah. That's true. You know, the 20th anniversary and the slow dance did she did that?

00:18:31:28 - 00:18:56:11
Unknown
Should I say that she I. God. Who. I never even thought of that. But that's that's right. So you know, you're doing the band, you're doing everything kind of, it's funny because you're kind of almost doing everything else backwards in what you're in. The hard caught the band. You're you're struggling. You're so true. How do you walk out of there?

00:18:56:11 - 00:19:21:10
Unknown
What what do you walk out with? What I walk out with is, I want to move to Nashville, and I'm done with Boston. And I had, like, my first original gig at Johnny D's in Boston, which I think is still there in Somerville. And, I think Heather very actually was on that journey because you're over there.

00:19:21:14 - 00:19:36:49
Unknown
Anyways, so that I do this gig and I'm like, I just decided to move to Nashville because I want to be a better writer, and I just wanted to get out of Boston and I had some friends that, you know, had always done this program from Berkeley that you would go and write and then come back, whatever.

00:19:36:49 - 00:19:53:50
Unknown
And I just, I don't know, I just was like, I got I gotta move now. And so I moved to Nashville. So you went to Nashville? You're not thinking like, I'm going to be a country. No. So you just wanted. It was a little bit of a detour. It was because I couldn't afford New York. And I know it's kind of like,

00:19:53:54 - 00:20:12:13
Unknown
It was interesting. You know, I really wanted. New York was always like, I want to go to New York. I want to go to New York. But I couldn't afford it. And that's what was affordable at that time. And I just was like, I knew I needed to move. And it's interesting you're going there at that time because that's the transition from like, oh, we're just country to this.

00:20:12:13 - 00:20:32:20
Unknown
Like, you know, now I'm like, yeah, lady writers are coming across the whole town. I mean, that was I was playing down there during that time. And so it was a sea change. Yeah. Shania Twain. Yes. And Brooks and, yeah. But then now we look at those guys and we think, oh, how quaint. I know exactly.

00:20:32:25 - 00:20:59:31
Unknown
Yeah. And you miss that? That old, old style country to some degree. But yeah, it is a songwriter's, Right. And also with you when with that in mind and. Yeah, succeed. I mean, I that's where I got my first couple cuts, which was great. I met some dear friends that I'm still friends where I, I met all those legends because of my.

00:20:59:36 - 00:21:21:49
Unknown
I was I was in a serious relationship to somebody that, And so I just met a lot of. I just met a lot of people. I played the Bluebird. I played, you know, all the places told reporters and clubs I did the festivals, like. So that's where I started to really get into that. I leveled up in that way, sure I am.

00:21:21:49 - 00:21:32:35
Unknown
I writing, I did a ton of co-writing. That's how I learned how to collaborate, which is key. Although, all those publishers would be like, can you write something up?

00:21:32:40 - 00:21:53:51
Unknown
Can you be like, can you talk more about how you love this person, not how you totally love them? See, the rebel in you was there. I was like, no, I hear it again. No I'm not. Oh, yeah. Think of another song to sing and then we'll we'll take a little break. But, and continue along with this.

00:21:53:56 - 00:22:26:47
Unknown
Were with, Kelly Kelly own son, and we're, we're learning about this, this rebel. And I just like, I you like refreshing because you're doing, you know, how how to do everything. You know makes the hardest way possible, you know? And, so. Exactly. This is just a minute more before, you jump in your song, how do you get out of Nashville, then?

00:22:26:47 - 00:22:43:30
Unknown
I mean, what was the deal? Yeah. So when I was in there, I was there for five years and. Yeah, a good chunk of time. And the reason why I was there was also because I had a couple serious relationships, you know, so that kind of kept you there. But always again, with the North Star was always New York, you know.

00:22:43:32 - 00:23:00:37
Unknown
Yeah. And I was like, yeah, I just, and I didn't like being landlocked that for me now, but, so when that last serious relationship ended, I was like, all right, I'm moving to New York, but I couldn't afford New York still. But I had a friend, who I'm still really close with, who lives in Boston.

00:23:00:52 - 00:23:19:25
Unknown
You know, she was like I said, I'm just going to go home to Chicago, and I'll just figure it out. And she's like, don't go to Chicago. Come to Boston, come live with me. It's closer to New York. I'm like, duh, silence. I say, I don't move to Southie. I don't know if I'm in Boston, but she had a condo in Southie.

00:23:19:30 - 00:23:45:50
Unknown
And so the hardest times to drive. But, oh, I drove, I listen, I'm a I'm like an incredible driver because that's where I drove. Like, all that area, all surrounding. I always had a car in there and in Nashville and then in New York. So. Yeah. So we're going to we're going to have Kelly, play and we're going to pick up, with the Boston Park and you're what song can you give us?

00:23:45:54 - 00:24:16:20
Unknown
Let's do I'll do this song called, that I wrote about it was for Jenny. These sentiments, I feel like, which is. Yeah, it's like everybody, I think, who's anybody in Chicago who is going through the journey because she's so great. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. And so everyone has to write a song to one of her haikus, and I had this title, and I saw one of her haikus, which was about a dog, and basically, awesome.

00:24:16:34 - 00:24:51:56
Unknown
For a genre that I created, the dog I had, I had somebody when I played this, I played all my stuff. This woman came up to me afterwards, and she was so basically the dog minutes, because there's the dog, and then there's everyone else in the family room. Everything else. All right, so this is dog.

00:24:52:01 - 00:25:01:55
Unknown
Dog.

00:25:02:00 - 00:25:10:57
Unknown
And.

00:25:11:02 - 00:25:18:40
Unknown
Know.

00:25:18:45 - 00:25:39:37
Unknown
Like, I ask you to rescue me. This is an opportunity to give and used to come up, you know, and.

00:25:39:42 - 00:25:45:26
Unknown
I see. Do you do you do.

00:25:45:31 - 00:26:21:03
Unknown
Something. It seems strong enough to. Say for sure. Not. You get your dog. I.

00:26:21:08 - 00:26:38:40
Unknown
Get. Don't talk to your child. I understanding, you know, sometimes. You know you say.

00:26:38:45 - 00:27:03:25
Unknown
Can I make a statement? I get a tiny, tiny eyes. You're giving me dog. You give me your.

00:27:03:30 - 00:27:33:02
Unknown
Arms. I'm like, All right, dog, I know there's a dog on our show that's happy to hear that song. Capers the Wonder Dog. We're going to be right back with Kelly Owen's puppy. Strung out. Hey, want to show your support of Martin's artist endeavors? Buy Me a Coffee is an online site that makes supporting Mardi easy.

00:27:33:07 - 00:27:55:00
Unknown
In just a few taps, you can make a payment of any amount and no account is needed. You can also decide to become an ongoing supporter. Go to Martin mccormack.com and click on the words support. Mark. Let's help Martin keep it all caffeinated.

00:27:55:05 - 00:28:27:36
Unknown
We're back with Kelly Owens Houghton and we just heard before the break dog. And, you know, again, this is one that you wrote for the haiku thing at the time that you were getting into Boston. Was this sound there for you where you kind of because you kind of have this end, I mean, obviously very edgy and, and there's a little, you know, I'm trying to think of, words to describe it.

00:28:27:36 - 00:28:58:42
Unknown
It's it's brass, you know. Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's good. I like that because, you know, how often you don't hear, you know it either. It's cloying, you know, or. But you're you're telling it like it is. I like that's what I like. So. And, you know, take us from Boston and, move us along with your musical life here because you you obviously, at this point, are you are you making a living doing this?

00:28:58:43 - 00:29:20:06
Unknown
Are you thinking you could make a living doing this? That that angst ridden path that we all go down and. Yeah. How do we that they don't teach at Berkeley or anywhere else? No, I mean, the closest to get was the wedding band thing at this point. Yeah. Well, and I, when I, I was in Boston, I worked for a, jazz booking agency called Ted Perlman Associates.

00:29:20:06 - 00:29:40:53
Unknown
I worked for blades. And so it's like in the biz, working in the business. And then when I moved to Nashville, I started doing, like, temping, right where it's like, temporary jobs. And, and I got, I would go into booking agencies and record labels and stuff. So I'm sort of always in the business aspect working and then and then doing the thing at night.

00:29:40:58 - 00:30:01:35
Unknown
And then I did like I did a little bit of like background singing for tours and then, traveling back and then, concessions and stuff like that. So that, so that was cool. But I still, I definitely had to have the job so that when I went to move to Bos back to Boston on my way New York, I was like, I'm not going to do that.

00:30:01:40 - 00:30:26:02
Unknown
I'm just going to wait tables. I never waited tables. And so once again, we're finding a pattern at this moment here. Like, like, okay, let's do it the hard way. But here's the thing. My friend was a bartender at this high end seafood restaurant in Copley Square, called Skip jacks. And I never made more money than working in this vegan restaurant.

00:30:26:02 - 00:30:43:57
Unknown
I would work, like, four hours a day, and that was it. I made so much money. Banks, right away, it was incredible. I was like, oh, my God. I'm like, this is like, I see why people do this for crypto. Yeah, I mean, me like, you know, I don't, you know, ugly tables like the actors, you know, stuff like that.

00:30:44:10 - 00:31:02:44
Unknown
I just didn't want to, but I just didn't. What I was like, I'm not going to create a backup plan. Right. So, and then that's so that's so. And then I started to kind of play again. And stars are very started to, you know. Right. And the music was not this, it was it was definitely rock. But it wasn't.

00:31:02:49 - 00:31:22:44
Unknown
It was still not I don't know, I didn't really I feel like this is the best stuff that I've written now. Right? It was like it was definitely good. It had holes and it was rock. It's good enough that I got a record deal. Which was a little bit. Yeah. Because that's that's, you know, getting a record deal is always interesting.

00:31:22:44 - 00:31:45:33
Unknown
And, it can be, it can be can be blessed, cursed with the blessing or blessed with the curse. Yeah. And. Yeah, just tell the listeners, because I think that's always intriguing to get in. And did you get out? I mean, I, I yeah, I got in and I never came out. Let's just say that, so.

00:31:45:38 - 00:32:06:24
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I was working with a lawyer in Nashville that, you know, would get me, you know, we'd have meetings at labels and what have you. And then finally, this subsidiary of Atlantic Records called Straight Line, led by Frankie the Rocca, who was, old school, awesome rocker guy. And our guy, like you said, like spin doctors.

00:32:06:24 - 00:32:28:12
Unknown
I forgot who else had signed up, but, and, so I got signed, on this, you know, subsidiary, basically of Atlantic. I made this record, and that's where I started to become more of a multi-instrumentalist, because I did it with this guy named Anthony Perez. And we recorded in new Jersey, at his studio, and we were playing all the instruments.

00:32:28:12 - 00:32:47:13
Unknown
I was just sort of like, well, I need this. All right. I'll just figure it out on player and I'll just do it, you know? So we made the record and it was mixed by Jim Scott. It was an incredible, incredible mixer. We mixed nobody ever so much for him messing around. No. Yeah. No. Oh I think things are you know going to happen.

00:32:47:13 - 00:33:17:41
Unknown
And then then, then two planes ran into the Richardson. Yeah. Let me and everything changed. Yeah, yeah. And, it's, it's, I mean, other people's lives, obviously could affect it that way, but I think, you know, musicians are, kind of the canary in the coal mine sometimes when it comes to the arts in that, I mean, the first time to suffer.

00:33:17:46 - 00:33:43:39
Unknown
Yeah. And we're the last to climb out of it. I mean, lots of us are still climbing out of the Covid manhole and run over by the current. It's very true. Which administration? Wow. Yeah. It took that must have been. So what did the label just say? Listen to it. Well, they were, like, starting to kind of run out, you know, money and, like, you know what I mean?

00:33:43:39 - 00:34:05:43
Unknown
And, you know, and then I had, like, the meetings with the big time manager, like the whole thing, right? It's like. And did they, did they, did you retain the rights to music? I mean, how did they did it? And. Yes, that's a good that's a good question. I, absolutely have. Yeah, I have record, I have my music.

00:34:05:43 - 00:34:26:13
Unknown
The only they there's one song in there that gotten to a movie that I still get royalties to, royalties from to this day, that, you know, somebody got a piece of because they put it in a movie, but otherwise my, business. Yeah. 50% of something is better than 50% of nothing. That's that's the other thing.

00:34:26:15 - 00:34:53:49
Unknown
You. I want you to believe. I know, they wouldn't say that to a lawyer with it. No. So, anyway, but. Yeah, so I had, But that's when. And then I just that's when I kind of met my husband. And, you know, when you see, like, National Guard in the subway in New York with, you know, machine guns, I just kind of just was like, I don't know if I want to, like, I kind of started to feel like I think I want to have a family.

00:34:53:49 - 00:35:11:43
Unknown
I was older and just I really kind of shifted. I was scared, sure. You know, I mean, I'm you're you're having a lot thrown at you. Yeah. And the world itself. Yeah. I mean, we were like, I listened. There were, there were two. I would say there were like, I feel like there were two types of people that were living in New York at that time.

00:35:11:43 - 00:35:36:03
Unknown
And it was either ones that were like, I'm not leaving. I'm staying with the ship. And no, there's no coming out of here. Right? And I was the one that was like, I'm not leaving. I'm staying, you know? Yeah. You know, there's there's something very vulnerable, I think, about being an artist when that sort of stuff happens because, you know, we're we're supposed to, you know, kind of have the finger on the pulse of people's emotions to some degree.

00:35:36:03 - 00:36:04:10
Unknown
That's what we're trying to, channel and connect and grow on. So when you're you have such a big open source that. Yeah. And then you have, that's like the, you know, it was the beginning of, you know, this kind of militancy, I think not to get to political, but the fact is like, you know, it became acceptable, I guess, to have kind of a policing kind of presence around for our own good.

00:36:04:15 - 00:36:27:49
Unknown
Yeah, yeah, I. Wow. So, yeah. Was your husband, what's he, Chicago and New Yorker. So he was so out of that. Yeah. So he he's, manager. And, Frankie, the in our guy was like, I got this manager because I met with other managers and, you know, and I would kind of like, this is the label was kind of like starting to, I don't know, it's kind of implode.

00:36:27:52 - 00:36:46:52
Unknown
Things were starting to happen, and I would lie to all that, you know, like, that's amazing. Things are going so well. And then, but inside I'm like, oh my God, this is like, what is happening? So yeah, Frankie was like, I got I would always go home to Chicago every summer. And he's like, I got, there's a manager there.

00:36:46:52 - 00:37:03:50
Unknown
You should name this abusive manager, kid Rock. He's had a lot of success, but he's really cool. Whatever. And so I went flew in. I met with him, and, I walked in and I saw him. I was like, oh, okay, I think I'm going to marry you. Well, yeah. I was like, I'll be the songwriter.

00:37:03:50 - 00:37:35:07
Unknown
You can be the manager guy. I'll see you in about nine months. And that's exactly what happened in my head. Yeah. And then 911 happened. Yeah. And then we, met in New York, and that was just that sort of. And then it just that's exactly what happened. So then I moved. I basically, we started dating and we kept my apartment in Brooklyn for years because I never want I really didn't want to leave New York, but I also just thought, I don't want to I don't think I want to raise a family here because of just being so, traumatized by 911.

00:37:35:09 - 00:37:46:39
Unknown
I just thought, well, hold on to my apartment and, you know, so I just went back and forth, and that's how we that's. Then I got back up.

00:37:46:43 - 00:38:14:11
Unknown
And I had everything stopped and all stopped, and that's how I to think. Yeah. That's so. So you're pregnant and, you know, you're. And, I was married and you're married. Yeah, but but baby came, and, that changes. Things. Changed everything. Yeah. Changed everything. I mean, and it's it's kind of, I mean, anybody, even a guy, to some degree, if he's a good guy.

00:38:14:14 - 00:38:45:36
Unknown
Okay. So qualified. And if, you know, once you start having kids. Yeah, you're you're no longer that fancy free, you know? Yeah. I mean, you know, and so many people, you know, that's when they start, I think I'll make a kids album or. I mean, it just kind of this gear shifts, but you you hear this happen to you, and you've had all these things that have happened so far that have been huge.

00:38:45:36 - 00:39:12:30
Unknown
I think a lot of ways, was what was the, the mind change? I think for me, I mean, it honestly happened when I was a few months pregnant. Until that I started, I started to do this open mindset, like decisions, because I was like, I wanted to go to a good one, right.

00:39:12:35 - 00:39:30:47
Unknown
To just sort of work out some stuff. And that's actually when I found my singing voice for the first time, even after I made the record, after all that stuff, all of a sudden I'm like, oh, no, this is my voice, like how I'm supposed to sound. So I started to just try to. I just started assign that, which was kind of interesting.

00:39:30:52 - 00:39:51:27
Unknown
And then when I got pregnant, I it's like I just stopped. I put it it was weird. It was like I couldn't sing anymore. I didn't write, I stopped everything and just like, it was like I couldn't do both, right? I couldn't I had to just do the mom thing. And, it was strange. I just it stopped.

00:39:51:27 - 00:40:08:27
Unknown
And then basically, because we, we go to a lot of shows and I would go eventually a few years in, I was going to shows and I was for myself. Right? I would just sit there, I'd be watching a band and I'd just like, tears be coming down and I'm like, what is this? You know? And I just realized, oh, I think I missed this.

00:40:08:27 - 00:40:34:19
Unknown
Like, yeah, I've stopped this part of myself. I've completely stopped. And then so that's which is a great thing to do. I mean, you know, you you you stop. Not because, you know, you you didn't have that career. You stopped it. Raised a kid. Yeah, yeah. I just wanted all my attention, sort of. You know, it's just very much like I can only do this.

00:40:34:24 - 00:41:00:16
Unknown
No, I can't do. No, it's it's cool that your husband was, was or is in music, right? Yeah. Because now you have at least was his philosophy. Was he looking at you were going, you know, with the tears coming down saying, you know, the band is not that good. Let's fuck up this like. Let's only take it.

00:41:00:16 - 00:41:23:08
Unknown
I could get out here. God, I have right. What, is he not good enough? Yeah. Oh, I know the bathroom suck. But, Exactly. So, I mean, was it the kind of thing where you guys said, hey, listen, I'm I'm I'm in this stuff for life. You're a lifer. You knew in your heart to heart, you know, life.

00:41:23:13 - 00:41:45:13
Unknown
I mean, I did, I guess I was working at Glendale State Bank and saying, you know, because I'm. I work for an organization. You need to get a job. Oh, those are fun. Yeah. Those are dangerous. Well, yeah, it really wasn't until, like, so I just was the stay at home mom. And then we had, my sons.

00:41:45:13 - 00:42:08:09
Unknown
I had two kids, and then it was years that I just. I wasn't writing or any of that. And then I met, Temple Schultz. I don't think she's, she's here in Chicago, and her daughter and my daughter went to the same grade school, so. And then it turns out her husband was taught by my dad at northwestern, and it just became this whole, like, small world.

00:42:08:09 - 00:42:26:55
Unknown
But when I always tell us a temple, she's a connector, you know how there's people that connect you? You know, they're the connector, that thing like, oh, did it. They just that's who they are. And she's one of them. And the minute that I met her, everything changed. I all of a sudden became connected into the Chicago music scene.

00:42:27:00 - 00:42:47:31
Unknown
We started a band, which I look at as really as the beginning of my for book called The Big Titties. We're like a kind of a rap mishmash of bands and stuff. And the song that I wrote, the hook, mom just quit the band and we wrote the song like I had the title. So we wrote a song called Mom Just Quit the band.

00:42:47:31 - 00:43:21:49
Unknown
And, you know, because I just image of us, like, drop, you know, like dropping our kids off at school and like, you know, going to the keg or whatever. So that was that was kind of the birth of mom for I look for you. I think my core is, yeah, it's awesome in that because having, you know, a kid in grade school and you see, you know, the moms out there and, you know, you realize that all these women are a living kind of, an angst filled life to some degree because of their kid and what they want.

00:43:21:49 - 00:43:47:26
Unknown
So what's so well, for the kid that there's so much going on? You know, they're aging, they're watching their kids age, they're watching. They're being pulled in 16 different directions, even more so than when we were kids. Yeah, I always joke like, I have a friend that has, like toddlers with their toddler ish. It's like she looks like she's got like just the look of PTSD on her face.

00:43:47:26 - 00:44:11:09
Unknown
Like what? I can really like, even even, like in the school where my daughter goes. I mean, even, like, trying to park, you know? Yeah. I deliberately come late because the parking lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I just say, hey, I'm an artist, you know, just come in late. But, you know, the principal this year said, to my daughter, you know, she said, know you're going into sixth grade.

00:44:11:14 - 00:44:34:39
Unknown
Don't you think you can be on time because she's like, like, hey, listen, lady, I like dad. Yeah. Oh, yeah. But to look at it because I think, you know, there's there's just this it's a kind of a funny vibe, but, Yeah, but you you you locked into something, then? Yeah. And did you find this kind of,

00:44:34:44 - 00:44:55:05
Unknown
I don't want to use it. Like. I don't want to say it. Did you find this liberating? Did you find this, like, all of a sudden the piece. Yeah. So with the ditties, that was the beginning of, like, also like making fun of the whole thing, right? Yeah. It's like, just a good way of coping with it.

00:44:55:06 - 00:45:15:58
Unknown
Yeah. I was like, me just. Yeah, it was, it was a way to make fun of the rock and roll genre and what I have, what have you. And we just had so much fun with it. But then, then that and, and that, that began my sort of also like, trying to mix comedy with music.

00:45:15:58 - 00:45:36:48
Unknown
And, at that time, temple was like, we should take an improv class. And I was like, oh my God, that's amazing. I drive by Second City every day to drop my kids off to school just like this ever occurred to me. And so we're all like, yes. And I was the only one that showed up. So I was the only one who showed up in from class.

00:45:37:00 - 00:46:09:24
Unknown
Three more songs came out to. So I did the whole program 89 months, every Sunday, three hours. Scared out of my mind. It was like cool to also feel that scared feeling again too. Like, you know what I mean? The nervous, nervous thing. So I did that and then, when, you know, after that and the Denise ended, it was when I wrote Shut Up that that's really when it was like, oh, oh, this is, this is a thing like, this is, this is mom for this is.

00:46:09:24 - 00:46:29:22
Unknown
Yeah. I got the idea of mom for it from my husband who started it. Dad for band with basically they had the name of the band, which was millions of dyed uniforms. They had some song titles, one of which I ended up ripping off for myself. They had band members. They had a t shirt that I really, but none of them were musicians.

00:46:29:33 - 00:46:50:00
Unknown
So it was just it was just this concept. And I was like, I'm like, I'm going to do my homework because that's like, you know, so because the songs and I just sort of like everything kind of just came together, you know, and, you know, when you're performing this, are you are you getting much? Oh, yeah. What are you getting I mean, yeah, how does this know.

00:46:50:06 - 00:47:18:52
Unknown
Describe for us your your your audience. I mean I, I can't imagine this not succeeding because how, how I think so many women feel. Yeah. You know this thing. Well, Yeah. So I started to write these songs and then, and I just kind, just kept coming. And that's when I realized, like, oh, this is my this is like my life is this, this is this is what this is what's been meaning.

00:47:18:52 - 00:47:46:09
Unknown
So now this is now that I has like the content of what to write about, like it's unless of course. And then I did I did, a show where I came up with this idea of called the Mom Horse Show, where basically it's, comedians from Second City, some of the best comedians from Second City, improvise scenes based off of my songs.

00:47:46:09 - 00:48:06:19
Unknown
So, like, I, like, shut off. And then they would input. They would improvise. Kind of lends so perfectly because the songs are only, like two minutes long, so it's not right, you know, then they improvise and, we just kind of go back and forth. And after that, there's moms that come up to me and they're like, you know, oh my God, this is like, I totally relate to them, you know?

00:48:06:20 - 00:48:26:47
Unknown
And they're holy crap. Like, I did a song, recently called Keep Looking at a show and this man, she's just like, keep looking. She's like singing, you know what I mean? They're like, yes, they get it. They just. They so get it. And it's like basically putting what they're going music to what they're going through and it's rock.

00:48:26:47 - 00:48:48:49
Unknown
It's funny. It's, you know, so we're we're we're do you see this all going, you know, I mean, you know, you can do mom for and you can do mom for until, you know, the kid gets married, I guess, you know. Right? Right. It can be. Yeah. Then it's real, like, for eventually. But it's not just about moms.

00:48:48:49 - 00:49:09:37
Unknown
I mean, it's like, it's all. It's all about life or, Yeah, it's like relationships and it's it's, it's, you know, it's. Yeah, it's the ins and outs of that. It's about it's also like, it's not just about me, you know, bashing others. It's me bashing myself, too. Like, it's it's a dance. It's a these songs are actually really true, right?

00:49:09:42 - 00:49:34:39
Unknown
Because it's like, you know, I'm not going to. Yeah. You have to have, points of view kind of represented. Yeah. You know, and I can't wait to talk to you about that in the next, yeah. Podcast because, you know, somebody writing two minute songs about something that's very heavily emotional, is is intriguing and worth, dissecting a little bit how you go about that.

00:49:34:44 - 00:50:00:17
Unknown
So you, you found success and and it brought you back to Chicago. Yeah. And you, you ended up with everything you kind of set out to do, I guess, more than ever. Like, more driven ever. Yeah. You know what I mean? And, Yeah. More positive than ever about all of it. And it's kind of funny what you're saying.

00:50:00:17 - 00:50:20:46
Unknown
Like how I did everything backwards. It's it's true. Like, to be my age now, like, doing this. But what makes it make sense is that the songs are about, you know, being a mom, about being a wife, the the life. Right. And I wanted to write stuff that was, that you would want to like, rock out to in a first with the subject, you know.

00:50:20:51 - 00:50:55:35
Unknown
Right. The subject matter, you know, I'm not going to write songs like I Love You, right? You know, I mean, it's just, you know, you gotta mean, like, love is not like. Well, yeah. I mean, like what? Monster. Yeah. What's so cool is you, like, you found, something that, you know, everybody can identify with now, especially in anybody that that's a parent, you know, and going through this part of your life where you're, you know, one hand, I guess you could say, you see, the youthful dreams kind of go off into the hinterland.

00:50:55:35 - 00:51:20:14
Unknown
Yeah. And then you're staring ahead at, you know, you know, mortality and you're thinking, okay, I better do something on this. Yeah. You share territory. I want to give out your website. Isn't this just your name? Right, Kelly Owens Houghton and I. Kelly owned sutton.com. And you can see, you can listen to some of your songs. You can see the things that you're offering.

00:51:20:19 - 00:51:44:47
Unknown
And, you teach this stuff. I mean, I, I almost feel like this is like therapy, you know, in a weird way. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you could you just sit with your guitar and just say, yeah, let's talk about this. Yeah. I mean, you know, I, I just, I always get the sense that, like, anybody that's going to, you know, could could totally.

00:51:44:51 - 00:52:08:13
Unknown
I could just see you're obviously changing people's lives. I do, I mean, I think you have to be added. So before you play your last song, I guess the question I have for you is, first of all, congratulations. Thank you. And I have two questions. Is you did you know, did he, you know, did he look at you and say you did it?

00:52:08:18 - 00:52:39:22
Unknown
He's, When I did the show at the in Orange Theater, last year to sort of like, preview the record, which is streaming everywhere. It's like, you know, wherever you stream soccer Trophy is the name of the DP because everyone gets one. Yes. Hello. Back. There's a little line. Everyone gets one, everyone gets on. But there was nothing better than when we were playing and hearing him laugh, like, wow.

00:52:39:24 - 00:52:58:32
Unknown
You know, like, it was like it was great because that is the absolute like, you know, sure. To me, that's, That's huge. Yeah, it was a big deal. And it was a sold out show and it was so much fun. So yeah, now he's he's into he loves it because it's a, you know, it's very it's crap.

00:52:58:35 - 00:53:23:36
Unknown
These songs are somewhat crass and smartass and and that's where he is. He gets this. I mean, I'm sure he probably looks at this and says, you know, thinks to himself, thank God I didn't interfere. Oh, no, he interfered. As much, I mean, because you really you charted your own course. I mean, once you got I mean, you know, he did what he could do, you know.

00:53:23:47 - 00:53:46:42
Unknown
Yeah. Got you going with Berklee. But then after that sounds. Yeah. Pretty hands are sort of like. Yeah. The second question and, to, to wrap up this interview, when you write these songs, that voice that comes out, that I hear, you know, it's it's it's a person that, you know, is kind of laying down the law.

00:53:46:46 - 00:54:11:49
Unknown
And is that the county orange or is that is, I mean, like in the house, you mean. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's probably pretty accurate. So, like, you know, the cats and. Yeah. Are your kids like, you know, you know, moms. Yeah. I'm about to turn me into a song. No. Oh that's funny. No. Okay, so I will say that, anytime that I write stuff, if they hear at first.

00:54:11:53 - 00:54:33:23
Unknown
So if they were ever to be like, you know. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. Yeah. I mean, maybe what a great threat. No, I mean, you better behave or Jake or else, I'm like, you're going to be on the next album. Well, I wrote a song about him called fine. How was your day? Fine. You know, so I play, you know, like, I played, the stuff.

00:54:33:23 - 00:54:55:53
Unknown
And then my song, you're such an asshole. I wrote, and I was like, oh, boy. So I went to my husband like, I need to play something for you. Can you compare, you know. And so I brought him into the studio and I played it, the whole time he was like, laughing, and he gave me the finger pretty much.

00:54:55:53 - 00:55:19:58
Unknown
It seemed. And he was like. But it was. It was funny, you know? And but he knows that he knows the value of a good song, you know. Sure. A business. He was like, like, you know, you know, and I think, I think do it. I think when you're honest about your life to the point where you can actually stand up there and say, this is this is it.

00:55:20:02 - 00:55:45:21
Unknown
Yeah. I think people people treat that like gold because. Yeah, I think so. I mean, so many people in their lives don't have the either the courage or the opportunity maybe. I mean, you have to kind of get up and it's scary. I mean, when I wrote when I wrote Shut Up, I was really scared. I mean, I, I, I was kind of scared as I wrote it because I'm like, I'm still like, shut up to my kids, like annoying me.

00:55:45:26 - 00:56:06:32
Unknown
But I just allowed myself to I just allowed it. I allowed it to be. And, I didn't edit it. That's the only song that is not edited. What you hear is what came out. Everything else is, you know, a work of everything. Like it's it's really hard to write with this one. And that's when I was like, oh, okay.

00:56:06:32 - 00:56:36:30
Unknown
I think this is not important. This is this is something we're going to continue on with mom or in the next interview with Kelly on Owens and play us out of, are you going to give us? Well, this is definitely a pretty, mom course song. This is called The Mother in Law. Oh, great. And luckily, she doesn't really know how to work a computer variable, so, she won't see it, but we're we're good.

00:56:36:30 - 00:56:56:09
Unknown
We're good? Yeah, it's got the mother. And I wrote a song. Here's how my mother in law came to town. It was for my friends. Oh, my God, you hear it? Oh, it was pretty funny. You know, we're we were going to to hear that we were going to have a party. Then my mother looking at the I was, it was just like, I love it, you know, but yeah, she was a great lady.

00:56:56:09 - 00:57:25:32
Unknown
She bears. But I mean, you know, but, I just remember she was, you know, very, liberal and, this secretary for the Screen Actors Guild and. Oh, nice. Right. Told her they were at this point in Lansing, Iowa. I digress, but I just said, hey, Mary, you know, I don't know what happened, but somebody put a, you know, Bush Cheney sticker on the back of your, know, car.

00:57:25:37 - 00:57:52:02
Unknown
She looks at me and goes, you can go to hell. And I was like, I love it. Yeah, you should have. So you got to have other ones are great, but, Yeah. Are. All right. Well, give it give it to us. And, and we go. Thank you.

00:57:52:07 - 00:58:27:03
Unknown
I, I, I, I'm in special place. It's a special place. Special. I know, I, I've been up on the red carpet. I mean, I know because I just go to school. It's fun. I go to.

00:58:27:07 - 00:58:38:11
Unknown
New. Year. Start burning my.

00:58:38:16 - 00:58:51:19
Unknown
Special place and special. Special.

00:58:51:23 - 00:59:18:46
Unknown
I need a child. You need hundred feet, child. You.

00:59:18:51 - 00:59:32:54
Unknown
Could never make it my. You know, I guess I just, I stand. It's not. You know.

00:59:32:59 - 00:59:44:20
Unknown
Around. To start burning, you know, I.

00:59:44:24 - 00:59:52:43
Unknown
Suppose, I.

00:59:52:48 - 01:00:02:26
Unknown
Tried. I was a special person. I.

01:00:02:31 - 01:00:10:06
Unknown
I tried.

01:00:10:11 - 01:00:35:53
Unknown
The special place in mother in law, has to be one of the all time great minds. Well done, well done. And, thank you for watching you guys and listening. Those on audio. Next interview, we're going to get into the nuts and bolts of songwriting, song crafting, and maybe even a little advice on stage, crafting to, Kelly all the time.

01:00:35:57 - 01:00:57:29
Unknown
So you guys, thank you. Bye bye. Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit Martin mccormack.com. While there, sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

01:00:57:34 - 01:01:10:22
Unknown
It's so, so long. Spain, we feel, makes no sense at all. The swan song wasn't part of the deal. Was no good for giving no choice. Giving us a.