Episode 259: THE DRIVEN MUSE-HOW CHARLIE OTTO GETS CREATIVE

‪@MartinMcCormack‬ Strung Out Episode 259, Martin continues his interview with Charlie Otto, a Chicago singer-songwriter, who has been part of a myriad of bands such as This Must be the Band and DJ no DJ.  A seasoned performer, Otto has played alongside many amazingly talented people including some of his musical idols, like Umphrey’s McGee and members of King Crimson and Smashing Pumpkins.  Otto's means of serving the muse relies on many approaches to his songwriting and music crafting.  Part technical, part inspirational and part sheer determination. Otto has advice for aspiring independent musicians making their way in this challenging world of musical expression.  His website is www.charlieotto.com

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:44
Unknown
Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer and musician Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

00:00:14:44 - 00:00:58:11
Unknown
Welcome back to Strung Out. And I'm continuing my interview here with Charlie Otto. Charlie Otto is a singer songwriter based out of Chicago. Very cool in the sense that, he has, Charlie Otto and his gear, which, kind of showcases not only his live show, but he also programs videos and, music and everything to create, really kind of a just a big it's must be just an amazing thing for people to see this because it's coming at them, you know, visually and sonically.

00:00:58:11 - 00:01:26:49
Unknown
And, yeah, it's a lot to, to, to do. And, so, yeah, we just had the previous interview was great because we were talking about the, the path of the, singer songwriter, of the artist. And, what a difficult path it is. And, I hate to break it to you two. We're living in a country that, is probably one of the hardest countries to make it as an independent musician.

00:01:26:54 - 00:02:03:11
Unknown
Because, other countries support their artists. So welcome, with that happy thought. But we are going into the creative part right now of, Charlie Otto and, Let's hear you start with a song. Yeah. And, then we'll we'll get into it because, I think, for those of you that, are seeing this episode, not the previous episode, do go see the previous episode because some great music by Charlie.

00:02:03:11 - 00:02:27:39
Unknown
And then on top of it, you know, you were just some really great insights, by Charlie, but let's. What what do you want to give us? Okay. I want to do something more upbeat this time. All right? Like, don't just play. My wife told me, don't just bring up the depressing music, okay? Yes, dear. This one's called one foot in front of the other.

00:02:27:44 - 00:02:33:33
Unknown
And, It'll speak for itself and bit.

00:02:52:00 - 00:02:59:17
Unknown
We do this confused by the line. You gotta walk.

00:02:59:21 - 00:03:23:53
Unknown
But you know, pretend. And your feet can just do your whole and can you step one foot in front of the other now? And don't worry about where your feet go. The world is curved impressively, and we both need to move.

00:03:23:58 - 00:03:32:40
Unknown
In with your feet and you've seen your share. Crow broken sideways.

00:03:32:45 - 00:04:02:38
Unknown
Yet you say you can still go and shake. And just don't give it all your time. Can't step one foot in front of the other now. And don't worry if you're walking straight. Go stop stretches out to infinity. You can never be late. And you can do do do do do.

00:04:02:43 - 00:04:10:40
Unknown
Do do do do do do do do do do.

00:04:10:45 - 00:04:26:01
Unknown
Do do do do do do you remember?

00:04:26:05 - 00:04:33:03
Unknown
Serve one foot in front of the other. Now.

00:04:33:08 - 00:05:13:11
Unknown
Even if you'll pay slows to a crawl. Ooh ooh. Whoo hoo ooh! Yeah! One foot in front of the other. Now, even if your face slows to a crawl. The world is still impossibly. You could never see it all up in one go after another. And when all of the got stopped. Change never truly in the song. Did you never love me?

00:05:13:16 - 00:05:31:50
Unknown
I just came for a glory. I'm for the grave I was made to I do to do do do do.

00:05:33:33 - 00:05:45:52
Unknown
Awesome. Awesome song. Do you find it hard to write positive songs?

00:05:45:57 - 00:06:06:29
Unknown
I guess so, I'd say with everything I'm doing, I'm focused on what could be better. I'm not saying this like I'm proud of. This is just what I noticed about myself. So focused on what could be better instead of what's really great I really, you know, so I definitely don't write any songs that like we're having fun in the club.

00:06:06:34 - 00:06:44:09
Unknown
Right. Yeah. Okay. You know, I think writing, positive songs are, harder. Yeah. You know, and I find that most artists tend to agree with that, that, trusting in a, I don't know why that is. Somebody wants, one of these interviews said that, his theory was that it was just as a society, we are taught not to to, really, celebrate the positive in the sense of, you know, we're more as a Western culture.

00:06:44:16 - 00:07:18:32
Unknown
You went even further to say we're, we're more attuned to, negative or depressing because it's it's much more safe or predictable. Wow. I, I just, that's depressing. But that's a great song. Because I can hear somebody playing that, you know, and feeling inspired, but, you know, they get the idea. Just, you know, one foot in front of the other, the the process, no matter how long it takes, you know.

00:07:18:32 - 00:07:42:19
Unknown
Yeah. That idea of struggle. Yeah. And I guess, I've seen a lot of the songs actually are very positive because they start with something that I'm dealing with some challenge. Yeah, they figure something out. Maybe. Maybe, I've even kind of, like, gotten away from that recently because I'm like, all my songs are just, like, figure things out in the song.

00:07:42:19 - 00:08:02:51
Unknown
That's. I don't want them to be the same, but like, it's sort of a lot of them just like, go like, kind of learn something along the process of making the song and then that's in the lyrics, you know? Yeah, I think in general. Even when, even when the songs are about something really depressing, they usually end up pretty positive.

00:08:03:02 - 00:08:28:45
Unknown
I mean, how do you, how do you go about, like, collecting your lyrics? Are you the kind of person that, Yeah. I always like to ask, are you old school? I got, a notepad and I, hear something or I think something, and I write it down. Or are you, you know, a person that puts around the phone and you have 500,000 little tiny bits of music?

00:08:28:45 - 00:09:05:15
Unknown
Yeah, a whole system. I start with, like, I'm singing gibberish. Okay. Just for melody and, vowel sounds and, like. So I just it's sort of iterative, meaning I'm playing section, and I, start playing chords or whatever instrument I'm using at that time, start playing and singing along with it. And I don't have the need right away to know what the words are going to be.

00:09:05:15 - 00:09:27:50
Unknown
You know, like, there's so much to have at one time. So I, I'm sure some people can do it, but I just so I just start with singing gibberish and then like the more I when I settle into something, I, I usually very much respect the vowel sounds that I was using when I and and the rhythm that I was using when I liked it.

00:09:27:55 - 00:09:48:20
Unknown
And, and I consider that sort of a load bearing structure at that point that like don't mess with that. Yeah. So and so a lot of the lyrics that then come out of it are most of the time they have to adhere to what the gibberish said the vowels were going to be, or the consonants. If I messed with that too much.

00:09:48:24 - 00:10:20:08
Unknown
I don't like the results usually. So, So that's that's really interesting. And, I love you're the first musician I've ever heard use the term load bearing structure in the term of crafting a song, but it is like building something, isn't it? I mean, like the physicality of, you know, putting together, a building. So it sounds to me that, the music comes in first.

00:10:20:12 - 00:10:42:21
Unknown
Yeah, definitely. Like every once in a while, there's some, actual idea that I think I think of and maybe write down somewhere and do something with, but almost never. It's almost always like the song just sort of writes itself and I didn't have any ideas in mind of what it would be about or anything. I start with nothing at all, you know?

00:10:42:32 - 00:11:09:07
Unknown
Yeah. Well, it's very freeing in a way to kind of, you know, you've got the melody and then you kind of start throwing, you know, the vowel sounds and, the, you know, phonetics around, which doesn't necessarily have anything, yet. And then eventually, what a word jumps out at you. Yeah, eventually starts sounding like a a word or phrase.

00:11:09:07 - 00:11:45:35
Unknown
And then I try that phrase out. And if that works, then I that one will stick and I'll start working. Just gibberish until I get to that phrase. You know, I'm just kind of build off of it. That's what I mean by iterative is like the if I'm, I'm often looping something. Yeah. And, and I write a lot like I write acoustically sometimes, but mostly I write where I'm, you know, looping something in Ableton and then, you know, so I've got a loop of 20s or something, and I'm, I'm, I'm going to be on that loop for an hour and a half or two hours, you know what I'm saying?

00:11:45:35 - 00:12:14:30
Unknown
Sure. To get a number of elements together, you write one loop before I start going here, let's make a bridge or chorus or something like whatever the other sections of the song are going to be. I'm usually on that loop for a long time. I want to talk a little bit about that because, you know, listening to you play, and, and the way you, you, you play the guitar, it you're very much a one man band, kind of a tech.

00:12:14:34 - 00:12:36:56
Unknown
You're percussive. You're you're you're going along with these, neat little fleet, you know, passes, on that song especially, and you're also kind of, I like the fact you do these vocalizing sessions that are just, you know, doo doo doo, you know, or whatever. What got you into that? I mean, how did you how did you pick that stuff?

00:12:36:56 - 00:12:56:46
Unknown
Well, like, when you start playing that, I said this in the last interview, but I'll just say something like it again. You start playing, you realize, after a while, just how much work it would take for somebody to recognize a song that you both know together, if especially if it's like a funk song or something that has a lot of disparate elements.

00:12:56:46 - 00:13:17:41
Unknown
That is not it's not three chords that you strum in a, you know, it's like, this bassline is moving. Well, I don't know if counterpoint is the word especially, but it's, it's moving, in a syncopated rhythm compared to the guitar or it's, you know what I'm saying? Like, if I were to play a function, just play the guitar.

00:13:17:54 - 00:13:38:22
Unknown
And again, funk might not be the right word, but like, whatever music I liked, at the time and my friends liked and I wanted to show this song, you know, to get all of you have to get the drums in there somewhere for them to even hear it, and you have to get the bass, which is different than the guitar or the piano or whatever you get, you're going to have to throw in there.

00:13:38:22 - 00:14:02:46
Unknown
And that's that's a lot before anybody even hears it, you know? Which, of course, when I was starting out, it was definitely the goal was like, can I get somebody to hear a song that they already know? Can I play it and get them to recognize that that's that song? You know, that's interesting. So in other words, if I'm hearing you correctly, you try to craft a song that feels like it's a song that somebody heard before.

00:14:02:51 - 00:14:25:35
Unknown
Well, okay, when it comes to writing my own songs, all I'm saying is when I'm playing guitar, when I'm playing acoustic, I definitely come from from that time period where I really had to figure out how to play bass and drums and guitar together, you know, and all the other instruments that got us somehow be in there or not all of them, but enough so that people can recognize this cover and playing.

00:14:25:40 - 00:14:59:02
Unknown
But when it comes to writing my own stuff, no, I have no, I have no, most of the time, I have no, pre preconceived notion about what it's going to be, what it should sound like or going to be like or whatever. I just, I just follow my next impulse. Okay. That's, you know, I, I, I think, creating something that like, somebody can, you know, hook into quickly.

00:14:59:06 - 00:15:27:26
Unknown
In some ways, that's a wonderful feat. Yeah. And and that's I guess that's what I was hearing. You, what I mean by it feels familiar. In a good way. Yeah. That, that, you know, and, you know, with your performing with, you know, just performing here acoustically, you can, you know, kind of, displaying all those elements is what I'm trying to say.

00:15:27:40 - 00:15:54:57
Unknown
You know, you you do have the bass trivia there. You know, you also have the percussion, you know, kind of elements in there. So that's it's very, yeah. I'm trying I think it's great you're you're succeeding. All right. So, you know, by, by doing that. And I think that's part of the, you know, the joy of, you know, creating, kind of live music like that with an acoustic guitar as opposed to, like, you know, an electric guitar or, you know, so, yeah, acoustic is pretty special.

00:15:54:57 - 00:16:18:48
Unknown
Yeah. It's an but for you, I think it's it's even more interesting to take that element that, that important part of it and then bring it in to the whole technological end of things. I think a lot of musicians like, I'll just speak for myself. I'd be scared to death of doing what you're doing, you know, as far as creatively going, okay, I have to program that stuff.

00:16:18:53 - 00:16:39:38
Unknown
And I, I grew up, you know, when computers have green screens, you know. Yeah. So it's it's just, you know, that they're, they're alien to me. Yeah. To some degree. But you know, you know what it's like to play. Yeah. And so you're just recording one section or whatever. Are you recording it on and then you play that back.

00:16:39:48 - 00:17:10:56
Unknown
And that's the other thing is like if you're playing with a band, you couldn't tell a bassist to just play something really simple for an hour for you. So you figure something else interesting. They won't do that because they'll start. They'll start following their impulse and doing more stuff. And that's why I feel like a lot of bands end up with like, a lot of notes, more than I want to hear personally and a lot of a lot of every part is interesting rather than, when I'm looping and when I'm making things.

00:17:11:00 - 00:17:32:42
Unknown
A lot of it is not interesting at all. It just plays one little blip here or there. It's just it was needed there and that's it. And if you start playing more, there's going to be too much information. So interesting. Yeah. So a computer is helpful in that. Like I can have. And that's I guess the idea of funk in general is like all these people playing really simple stuff, repetitive simple stuff.

00:17:32:48 - 00:17:54:24
Unknown
But when it comes together, it lacks and it's very complex. Oh yeah. And there's enough to listen to. Oh yeah. No, but I mean, I like it sounds to me like in your creative process as you're creating this stuff by going for the simplicity and, and such, you're, you're kind of editing yourself as you go along. Yeah.

00:17:54:24 - 00:18:27:53
Unknown
I mean, I think a lot of times I think that what makes a song is what notes were not played. Like, there's a scale, you know, but like that five. I just didn't play it that whole sum because it just didn't feel right to play that. That one didn't feel like the vibe one. And so basically like I definitely have come over the years to like, you know, I mean, I bet a lot people will be surprised to hear me saying this because it's still an insanely complex sometimes, you know?

00:18:27:53 - 00:18:50:57
Unknown
So maybe, this is still just an aspiration I'm talking about. But in general, I'm I'm always trying to just keep it as simple as possible. Do you find that, you know, helps with your lyrics then, too? By going with, you know, the, the, vowel sounds, you know. Yeah. By sticking to the rules that have been sticking.

00:18:50:57 - 00:19:10:32
Unknown
Yeah. You have with you. That's exactly it. You kind of given yourself these rules by which. But when you do, you do the same thing. Then with the lyrics. Are you the kind of person then, you'll look over your lyrics and you'll say, well, I'm going to minimalize what I'm trying to do here too. Is it so?

00:19:10:39 - 00:19:38:55
Unknown
I mean, there's something about that, right? I mean, the simpler, the better in the sense, you're inviting the listener to, to fill in the riffs as well as I, I mean, that either accurate or I know I'm guilty, at least in the past, of giving too much information, sharing a certain amount of information is right. And and really, the way I think of it is maximize meaning, minimize information.

00:19:39:00 - 00:20:06:13
Unknown
And that is that's the general thing that I constantly fail to do but want to, well, but yeah. So a verse, verse one and verse two, often they have the exact same vowel sounds throughout and the same rhythm and stuff. The English language is amazing. Maybe every language is like this, but the English language is especially, terrible in some ways, because words, it's terrible to teach a kid.

00:20:06:13 - 00:20:44:34
Unknown
Maybe you came across this with your kid, but like, there's like, no rules. It's all just. And it can be anything. And some words mean two things that are the exact opposite of each other. Right? Flammable and flammable or inflatable or whatever. But like all I'm saying is, like, there's so much of that that there's so many things you can do, even with even with two sets of verses with the same vowel, sounds and rhythm and consonants, you can do so many things, and one little, preposition or something can change the and can flip the entire meaning of everything by just putting but somewhere or so, and there's so many things like that

00:20:44:34 - 00:21:12:23
Unknown
that, that I absolutely love. So. That's right. I a it's it's really cool to hear you talking this way because I think, I can hear the producer in you. Do you, have you produced other artists sometimes. Yeah. And, I love that. That auto ism, meaning, you know, over, information, you know, more meaning and, less information.

00:21:12:23 - 00:21:39:18
Unknown
I'm not saying it. Right. Say it again. I like what you said. Okay. Maximize. Yeah, I always I don't, but it's pretty nerdy, so I don't know I like something, but I always say maximize meaning, minimize information. Okay. I think that's nerdy, though, but it's it's, it's the number one rule that even, you know, most musicians lead, especially when going into the studio meta where there's, you know, the candy store.

00:21:39:19 - 00:22:03:24
Unknown
And, you know, I mean, there are albums that I've made over the past, you know, decades that, I look back and I'm like, why the hell did I do them? You know why? Well, because I was in the studio. Yeah. And I, I, I'm like, hey, you know, why don't we have, you know, if we're going to do that, why don't we do this?

00:22:03:24 - 00:22:25:16
Unknown
Yeah. And then. Oh yeah. Did you hear that? And then, you know, next thing you know, too much too much information. Yeah. And you know, the meaning is gone and, and, and is that part of the reason why you, you're kind of, embarking on this? No, you're not embarking. You're on your way with the solo project.

00:22:25:16 - 00:22:52:13
Unknown
I mean, you're kind of you've taken a lot of elements out, literally taken out musicians. Yeah. They're in the box now. They're in the computer you know. Right. So I still record people and then have them play I guess I mean some songs are still very complex, some are simple and some are complex. And I'm always this is just something I'm aspiring towards to simplify.

00:22:52:13 - 00:23:07:25
Unknown
I don't achieve it. Right. But I guess the solo thing is, mostly, like, I get to.

00:23:07:30 - 00:23:30:51
Unknown
I get to have the band turn on a dime if I wanted to. There's a lot of creative opportunities when you, if you play every instrument, are in charge of every instrument right now. So you're creating the world is tied to spend. Yeah. It is. Yeah. I mean, and but but at the same time, putting enough options everywhere that I could that it's not just me pressing play on something.

00:23:30:51 - 00:23:51:55
Unknown
You know, I was going to ask you that because I think that's that's really important because what you're doing, those options allows the performance to be organic. Yeah. And nobody's ever accused me of of not doing enough. Yeah. If you if you see me out there, I'm, I'm it's comical. You know, for me, I watch you like the mad scientist.

00:23:51:55 - 00:24:11:18
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lying around like the one man band with the kick on his foot, you know, like, it's. It's really just like people tell me, like, maybe chill out a little bit. I mean, I'm definitely, you know, but but, Yeah. So it is organic because a lot of things could go, could be different this time from all the other times I could do whatever.

00:24:11:23 - 00:24:31:38
Unknown
Right. And I don't have a set list or, and again, with music videos like, not again. I said this in the other room, but like with music videos, there's this version of music video that everybody has on their phone where like, you have some options, you can go forward, you can go backwards, you can press play and stuff, right.

00:24:31:38 - 00:24:56:27
Unknown
Turn it off. Right. But what I really love is like, there's this new version of making videos where it's all happening spontaneously. So whatever I do musically affects what happens visually, and it's not preordained in any sort of, and I'm not just playing back to something I'm making. I'm creating just like I'm creating the song same time.

00:24:56:32 - 00:25:16:13
Unknown
Let's get you ready to do the next song. I, what you're describing there, it sounds to me like, you know, you know, I coming in now, is that going to be your band mate of the future? Do you think? Or how do you feel about that? I mean, I really like it. Yeah, maybe they'll keep. I mean, they're already getting a lot better.

00:25:16:19 - 00:25:42:33
Unknown
Like my buddy who's very into AI, he showed me something two years ago or something. I was like, okay, that's garbage. I, I've wanted nothing to do with this. And then he just the other day he took a lyrics of my song and dropped it in there. And somebody wanted to be. And it made like three songs in like ten minutes or whatever, you know, half a minute that they're better than my songs.

00:25:42:37 - 00:26:01:59
Unknown
They're so good. The heart isn't there still. Yeah, but maybe they'll figure that part out, too. Like, I'm not putting anything past him. It's said it's sad to me, and all the visuals look really, they're really off putting, and I just don't like that. That's what the future is, that that they're they're the people in charge are selling us.

00:26:01:59 - 00:26:32:34
Unknown
Is this really fake? That's all they're offering us. Like, I would like I would like, you know, like the climate situation we figured out I would like high speed train scorers of my relatives and less planes. I would like a number of different things, but all they're offering me is like this. I garbage. Right. And it's that's it's sad and sad and plus, you know what?

00:26:32:39 - 00:26:57:26
Unknown
The energy expended. The water expended. Yeah. The amount it takes to create. Well you're you're in the, you know, the front lines of, fighting the fight of, by being a musician, because you're bringing authenticity. And what's interesting is, is you you have technology, but you're using it in an organic fashion, you know, maybe. Which is.

00:26:57:31 - 00:27:18:37
Unknown
Yeah, maybe. I mean, there's always, like, there's always the choice. It's always I don't I don't consider AI as, like, this separate thing from all the other computer stuff. It's just they're more programs. It's not people. Right? It's just another computer program. It's just gotten a lot more intense. And it can take a lot more information and and do a lot more things.

00:27:18:37 - 00:27:39:27
Unknown
But there's tons of technology that all along the way, everybody has been like, no, man. I mean autotune, you know. Right. Like people just like how that sounds. I don't personally, because I, I didn't come from that era. All right. But like so people use that now just because it's a cool sound they like. Right. You know what I'm saying.

00:27:39:27 - 00:28:00:02
Unknown
And I imagine it was the same with distortion. I wasn't around then, but people were like, I can't hear the notes you're playing anymore. You know what I'm saying? I do know people were like, yeah, but I like it that way. Yeah, and maybe even, you know, maybe going back, it's always been the same with that. And you just choose which, I don't know for sure.

00:28:00:06 - 00:28:40:09
Unknown
Okay. It's a little more daunting in the sense that, you know, like you just said in those in the space of minutes. And if it keeps improving, I mean, now they have, like, an AI actress that's out there. I mean, you know, the mind reels. I think what it would at least with distortion, with some of this other stuff, not so much out of tune, but, you know, you still have the artist authentic, you know, and so, but you're creative, in your creative process, that seems to be an important element for you.

00:28:40:14 - 00:29:06:45
Unknown
Yeah. Make sure that somebody, as you said, if I come to, a Charlie auto show on Tuesday, I'm going to get a different show on Wednesday. Yeah, I think that might be all we'll have left to offer is authenticity. Yeah. And, well, I could be wrong. No, I think you're right. I think that authenticity is going to be, the name of the game.

00:29:06:45 - 00:29:31:13
Unknown
But then you have to get into the, the discussion of, you know, is it good authenticity, because you will have people that are aided and abetted through AI or whatever. I mean, we see it now, you know, with all time where, you know, people who cannot hold a note to save their lives are now being presented as, you know.

00:29:31:18 - 00:30:02:45
Unknown
Well, that's that person, you know. Yeah. So the battle against, you know, authenticity is is already going up. Yeah. And I don't know if. We'll have that to offer, but I don't know if that's what people will want. Like, when I, when I think of myself, or think of an example, my own life is like I this my pleasure is sometimes I still want fast food or something, even though I know there's some.

00:30:02:49 - 00:30:27:38
Unknown
I'm looking at this authentic place right here, but I just I just want this, this garbage burger. Like, I'm just in that mood. I don't know why. Right. And and I just think music consumers, which is not us, especially, you know, like where the, where the restaurant tours in this sure analogy or whatever. But like, they also are like, yeah, no, I just, you know, I just want the I want the burger.

00:30:27:38 - 00:31:05:25
Unknown
So this is I'm going to do it's easy and as fast as Spotify and it's here, it's free. Right. And you know and and so like I, you know, I don't know it, nobody knows what the near future is going to hold. You bring up Spotify and that's, you know, that's again, from the creative aspect of it, to take something that you labor over long enough and hard enough and you throw your heart into it, and knowing that that's a platform that's knowingly taking that and giving you, pennies on the dollar is that, you know, for it because you can listen to Charlie Otto for free.

00:31:05:29 - 00:31:32:55
Unknown
You know, that is the argument for authenticity. They have to come and see you live. They have to experience what you're doing. Yeah. Your creative process in the moment, obviously, because you're not doing the same thing every time. Yeah. And you I, I like the fact you opened up these, you know, these, corridors of creativity and spontaneity I think would be the, the better word to use, and to enable you to do something.

00:31:32:55 - 00:31:50:58
Unknown
Yeah. Let's have you do a show, and then we'll take a little break and we'll continue along where, you know, you start giving sage advice to those people younger than me, man. All right. Well, I got to think about what you. Yeah.

00:31:51:03 - 00:32:07:52
Unknown
Jim Tantrum was the one who had me on or told me that hooked us up. Yeah. Because you had him on. Did he give you that cable? No, some. Some guy on the show did, though. He's cool. I've never seen that. He owns a company of these. I wish I should know his name just so I can tell you.

00:32:07:52 - 00:32:24:55
Unknown
Yeah. Shark cable. Shark cable. We all have to look it up, you guys. And, maybe you don't sell them on your, your website. Well, I gotta tell him, like. Yeah, I'm selling them. I think that that's the first time I've seen. And it's great. Works fine. Yeah. Cool. But anyways, Jim, it was another really great musician.

00:32:24:55 - 00:32:45:16
Unknown
But during Covid, another thing that I did a lot was collaborate digitally with just anybody, anybody at all. And he. So he wrote the chords for this one and I wrote the vocals, but I just don't really like it. And since he was the one who suggested this meeting, I thought I'd just play this one or it came up for me.

00:32:45:20 - 00:33:06:16
Unknown
I want to go, you are my only friend. I think that's what it's called. Well, I don't know what he needed. I'm not sure what he needed. You know, I just gave him the vocals. I just like job walked away. Well, we'll call it that, but, you like you. That's great. You are my only friend, Jim Tashian.

00:33:15:52 - 00:33:20:20
Unknown
For.

00:33:20:24 - 00:33:26:47
Unknown
You don't even ask about it.

00:33:26:52 - 00:33:31:05
Unknown
Probably do me any good.

00:33:31:09 - 00:33:39:24
Unknown
I just need some time alone. You. I would say that.

00:33:39:29 - 00:33:47:56
Unknown
You are my only friend.

00:33:48:01 - 00:34:18:50
Unknown
You are my only friend. Company? Who says you are my only very best friend? That I am.

00:34:18:55 - 00:34:24:48
Unknown
The one to talk about and.

00:34:24:53 - 00:34:29:20
Unknown
Would it be better if I did?

00:34:29:25 - 00:34:45:51
Unknown
I just need some time to mull snot come out my nose. And that's where you come in. You are my only friend. You.

00:34:45:55 - 00:35:02:38
Unknown
You are the only very best friend. I think you said you are, Only friend.

00:35:02:42 - 00:35:20:56
Unknown
You are only your very best friend. It's not hard to say. That's not for you to say.

00:35:21:00 - 00:35:30:10
Unknown
I know you say.

00:35:32:13 - 00:35:50:59
Unknown
What, what a cool song. And, got some questions to ask you about. Yeah, yeah. After we, we're going to take a little break here. We're talking with a singer songwriter and, performer. Charlie, and you are, strong out.

00:35:50:59 - 00:36:20:09
Unknown
Hello, this is Polly Chase. Presenting artwork by Martin McCormick. This painting, titled dude, features a mountain range that holds a special place in Marty's heart. On the canvas, which measures 20 by 24. We see the Tetons rising in the hazy distance of a view from an abandoned dude ranch just outside Jackson Hole, Wyoming, near Marty's parent's old place.

00:36:20:14 - 00:36:59:23
Unknown
The cool blues and violets of the background complement the buttery yellow foreground. These colors pass the viewer's attention back and forth along the horizontal plane, while the decaying model T sinks into that scrubby landscape, from which the majestic peaks punch upward along the vertical plane. It's a quiet yet very moving scene, both artistically and emotionally. It pulls the imagination into a human story waiting to be told, one witnessed by rock that is millions of years old.

00:36:59:27 - 00:37:10:03
Unknown
To explore this painting and more of Marty's artwork. Go to Martin mccormick.com.

00:37:10:03 - 00:37:28:35
Unknown
We're back with Charlie, and, That song that we just listened to. You are my only friend. You say that Jim did the lyrics. No, Jim did the guitar. Jim and some other buddy. Did, something when he sent it to me, they had done.

00:37:28:42 - 00:37:45:57
Unknown
They had done just like, an instrumental thing. And then I just threw vocals on it. Well, and then. But you picked up a pretty cool guitar riff. Was that what? Yeah, that's what he did. Yeah. Jim's very, very good. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure I'm not playing it right either, but I do my. Which is.

00:37:46:02 - 00:38:10:05
Unknown
But yeah. No, it's a, it's a really cool riff. And so how did how did you get to. You are my only friend. That's, really started gibberish. Started with the gibberish. But that's, I mean, I'm listening to that, and I'm thinking, you know, Charlie is referring to maybe not another person, but referring to how a person should think of themselves.

00:38:10:09 - 00:38:28:41
Unknown
Oh, yeah, that's interesting. You know, that's what's great. This is great about music. You can come up with it. I didn't mean that. And I didn't mean actually almost anything. Like, I don't have a real world story that this is from. I just it just came out well, yeah. So the muse on friendship. Yeah. Well, I think it's, I think, you're right.

00:38:28:41 - 00:38:58:10
Unknown
I mean, that's one of the neat things about music, that, again, sets it apart from any other kind of career is that you offer something, especially music that a person takes and makes their own and claims ownership over it in such a way that, you know, they're grateful to you for the ownership, but and, and, but they also feel like they kind of own you as well, to some degree.

00:38:58:10 - 00:39:17:50
Unknown
You know, a part of me, you know, let's just. Yeah, I mean, that's that's, one of those things we're talking about in the other interview about, you know, the how do you measure success? What did you know when. But, you know, when you come up with something like that, you know, that that's a powerful statement.

00:39:17:50 - 00:39:40:20
Unknown
You are my only friend. Yeah, I know, that's it. I mean, for that to come out of the gibberish is. Yeah, I think there must be something in the subconscious that's working a little more, for sure. I mean, that's the other thing is, like, you know, you don't I mean, again, a lot a lot of the songs, I can tell you exactly what was going on for me that it related to in my life.

00:39:40:20 - 00:40:09:09
Unknown
It didn't I didn't start the song thinking about that, but that's what it touched on and whatever. But this one, is just a story that I don't. But just like, just, I mean, successes when I'm playing these chords and that that melody and those words which are extremely like, live, they're so full of of meaning, of like, it's sad.

00:40:09:14 - 00:40:37:11
Unknown
It's their only friend. It's tender, it's loving. It's it's, it's it's 50 different emotions that are very thick in that. Absolutely. You know, and just, just for them to just show up and you, I struck gold, you know, and which is good, you know, because, it's one of those lines that, again, somebody can, can pour meaning into it, you know, like you said, it could be sad.

00:40:37:11 - 00:40:57:58
Unknown
It could be, it's also one of those things that, you know, like when you're talking about somebody that means so much in your life that they are your only friend. You know, or it can be self-directed. You know, that's I love that that's what you saw. That's called the power. The power of music, right?

00:40:58:01 - 00:41:23:25
Unknown
I mean, the power of of creativity. And, I think, you know, your gibberish method, is, is it's a method that, you know, other artists have used, Paul McCartney, yesterday started out with scrambled eggs. My, all my baby has such pretty legs. I think that was, if I remember correctly, the the untold story.

00:41:23:30 - 00:41:49:11
Unknown
That because that's the ending lyrics. Daddy. No, no. You mean he starts with. He starts with. He didn't know yesterday. Yeah, he was scrambled. Oh, yes, I guess so. You know, I mean, but that was, you know, I mean, I love that story from the sense that in order to get from point A to point B, you have to go through that, which you're illustrating by your, your method.

00:41:49:18 - 00:42:19:04
Unknown
You know, you, you have to go into that creative marsh of nonsensical. Yeah. You know, to kind of get through and and see what, what fits and what doesn't fit. Yeah. You know, so, you know, one of the, the things I wanted to ask you about with your is your playing style. You said that, you know, at last interview when you first started, you, you know, printed off, like, 60 sheets of guitar.

00:42:19:09 - 00:42:42:28
Unknown
It was like talking about triads and stuff, like. Oh, yeah. So you took music theory? Yeah. So were college level music theory. And then, you know, trying to learn as a, you know, young, young, you know, kid, yeah. Your style don't, you know, how did you get to this kind of thing of playing chords like that?

00:42:42:33 - 00:43:07:01
Unknown
I mean, it's it's it's very, rhythmic, but it's also like, you know, you're you're playing half chords and things like that. Yeah. I mean, it's just who I liked, I guess. I mean, there's this guy, Keller Williams. Yeah. He's also a realtor. The different Keller Williams. Yeah. So maybe people know the realtor. Probably. Yeah.

00:43:07:02 - 00:43:37:22
Unknown
But not. Yeah, but Keller anyway, just kind of blew my mind with. He is very rhythmically and always his hands moving extremely fast. But picking out, he's he's another one. Just like he's doing the drums. He knows he has to play the drums as well as the melody and the bass line, you know. So he's he's doing all that and, I think I, I remember that time period, like trying to figure that, you know, I try to copy styles that I have that now it's in my tool to write a little bit.

00:43:37:29 - 00:44:04:59
Unknown
It's good to have, different kind of influences. And you've mentioned several, artists, like Adrian Belew. And I think it's great that you like Adrian Blue. An artist that comes to my mind. Maybe not as well known, but, you kind of remind me, is Paul Crary. Marty, just a great, singer songwriter, and and a journeyman performer.

00:44:05:04 - 00:44:24:29
Unknown
But, and and to be honest, I don't know where he's, I kind of lost track of them. Over time, I really have to look up and see how he's doing. You know, coped with anxiety and a lot of Chicago. No, no, because, he he was it last time, I think he was out of the South.

00:44:24:29 - 00:44:47:59
Unknown
That one was okay, but, but, but that's, you know, your style of playing and that is very much, kind of a style of a person that can support themselves and as a solo artist. Do do you find that to be true, or do you think that, the question is like, you're you're not just you're not doing look cool backwards.

00:44:47:59 - 00:45:13:38
Unknown
You're just, you know, you're giving a very intricate, kind of looping all your songs, you know, you kind of have this, you know, where you're you're you're the singer. You're you're also the percussionist. You're also the lead guitarist. You're also the bass player. I could be wrong, but I think this very much has to do with failure in general, that like if you succeed with playing Kumbaya, it's all good.

00:45:13:38 - 00:45:36:43
Unknown
Just play Kumbaya. Or and, you know, other some other songs people like to sing to when they're drunk or whatever. Like, you just play them and you're good. Yeah. So you're good. So go watch TV or something, you know? But like it, that has not worked for me, right? Like it didn't work. And I don't want to play those songs, so I'm playing something different than that.

00:45:36:55 - 00:46:07:39
Unknown
And I keep going. All right. That's not landing. I gotta work harder, I know. So so I come up with new. Well, I think that's people that are following. You are going to enjoy the fact that your, your, career has a trajectory. It's developing. It's that star that you talked about, you know, that that, the Vonnegut's the old the illustration of the the the stream, the path or the, you know, that's that's definitely you.

00:46:07:44 - 00:46:46:20
Unknown
You're you're an experimental kind of, human being, which is great. Which brings us to, some, we need to have, some sage advice from you, I'm sure, for for people that are out there that have been, listening to this podcast, watching this podcast, and, and, you know, one of the questions, that I want to ask you is on behalf of those people is, do you know what what keeps you motivated then, as far as, you know, pursuing the style?

00:46:46:25 - 00:47:17:25
Unknown
Gosh, I don't even know because I people let me just tell you. Yeah. Like, I actually I mean, like an incredible, slump of not having any shows and not having almost anybody that's asking me for anything. And still I'm just incredibly motivated to just make stuff up. I just want to I just I just want to I just want to do it.

00:47:17:25 - 00:47:36:56
Unknown
So I don't know I don't know what it is like at one point. It definitely and I said this in the last interview, but like it started as like this will get me some chicks, you know. Right. And then somewhere it was like, well, this will make money. This will get me in front of people. This is a thing that can do this thing for me, you know?

00:47:37:01 - 00:47:56:43
Unknown
But now there's all that stuff has been pulled away. Not like, not pulled away like somebody did it to me. It's just it's all drifted away. All those motivations are gone now. Yeah. And I still really want to do it. Right. Well, so I just want to do it. And all I'm saying is like for that next time I'm going to strike gold.

00:47:56:47 - 00:48:24:21
Unknown
You know, the next time that that perfect chord and that perfect vocal line with those words when they pop up, that I just struck gold and I'm just looking for more gold. Well, you know, you you, you're a very inspirational artist. And, you know, you also don't have very good media presence. You have a good website, things like that.

00:48:24:25 - 00:48:45:55
Unknown
What do you, you know, what advice would you have for somebody that, like you wants to do their own thing and is afraid to do it because of those things that you just said, you know, you know, nobody's asking me, you know, right now for anything. And, I'm, I'm in a slump with shows or whatever.

00:48:45:55 - 00:49:12:39
Unknown
Yeah. I mean, those things are real, and they happen to all of us, but I would say, put all your eggs in one basket. The opposite of what everybody else says. That and this is it goes back to what I was saying about, when I look back, my time here, it's been 20 years now since I decided to do music.

00:49:12:44 - 00:49:30:47
Unknown
And when I look back at the time that I'm most, the only thing I regret is when I try to split my focus because some things were,

00:49:30:52 - 00:49:53:36
Unknown
Maybe financially going to make things easier or, like. I basically split between what I knew I definitely wanted to do and something else that I was like, and if I do this, then that will help with that, right? Instead of just doing that. Right. So I would if I were to go back, I would put all my eggs in one basket.

00:49:53:40 - 00:50:18:10
Unknown
That's that's great advice. I think maybe who knows. Well, I think I, I think in other words, what you're saying is, you know, again, you, you, you brought failure as, part of the process, you know, moving forward. And so putting your eggs into one basket is taking the leap. Yeah, definitely take the leap. Take the leap.

00:50:18:10 - 00:50:37:26
Unknown
And so and if somebody is considering. Yeah, well, they should take the leap or if they want to stand on their, they have their feet on two different boats right now. And they're hoping that this boat is going to go somewhere right. But they want to keep their feet on two different boats like right. You're going to have to move the other foot over.

00:50:37:26 - 00:50:57:04
Unknown
And all I'm saying is what I would say is you just have to do it. And you don't have to know how it's going to work out. It's tougher when you have a family. You got you're responsible for just yourself. But like humans by themselves, are capable of living in all sorts of different situations and environments and doing all sorts of things.

00:50:57:04 - 00:51:25:59
Unknown
So if you actually just leap most time, it just works out just fine. That's a that's very, very good advice. And, I think, you know, the last question I'll ask and then you can play us out is, you are a father, your husband, you know, you've you've, you are in a very challenging career field.

00:51:26:04 - 00:51:56:46
Unknown
How do you, how does your support system do you have a support system? Of other people. And if so, how important is that for the artist? One thing I realized, having a kid, I was like, why does this suck so bad? I thought I was supposed to, like, really enjoy this or whatever, but what I realized is that, for 200,000 years, tons of people live together.

00:51:56:51 - 00:52:19:27
Unknown
Raising a kid was like, there was no babysitting. There was just a ton of adults around all the time and kids running around. And that's it. Right? And this idea that we have now, this new experiment over the last 50 years or so of, like, everybody get your own house and, and make it bigger, get a big house, right, with just you or your family.

00:52:19:27 - 00:52:47:02
Unknown
And it just, you know, and separate yourself from everybody else is like, that's just done. It's a failed experiment in a bunch of different ways, and it's a failure for me. I actually just moved in with my mom. She's on the first floor, my family is on the second floor. Just so that we can help each other and support, because a a child raising a child is, is extremely difficult no matter what job you have.

00:52:47:07 - 00:53:22:24
Unknown
And, and what a child needs is way more than we, I think as a culture understand and are because we're, completely unable to give them all they need if we're living in this, single family to, house type of situation. So, I have just rallied around my family. And as for as much help as I can get and because I have different ways I can help them and, just work together with them.

00:53:22:24 - 00:53:53:50
Unknown
And so, yeah, that's pretty important. That's great. I think, and, I am a big believer in multi-generational, families. The idea of I just, I totally agree with you 150%. I just think that, you know, it is a failed experiment. And, again, I think it's one of those things where the idea of consumerism, you know, we're being fed, a lot of stuff, you know?

00:53:53:55 - 00:54:20:44
Unknown
You know, if only you have a house. If only you had a car. If only you have the, the the record label. If only. And, you know, you don't need that to survive and thrive in the music business. But what you do have to have is a good sense of of, you know, who supports you, a good sense of, reaffirming your your commitment to it.

00:54:20:44 - 00:54:40:36
Unknown
I think, on a regular basis, I think that's at least speaking for myself. That's probably the hardest thing. You know, I think, I'm in angst every day because. And I've been at it for a long time, but, you know, there's there's always a little bit of angst, but, I want to thank you. Giving.

00:54:40:36 - 00:55:07:25
Unknown
We've had a really good conversation. I see the sun is high in the sky. Hopefully it's not, bleaching out. Charlie, it's on that. He just looks like, God on Mount Olympus hill. Giving his advice. But I want to thank you for, giving people really good advice. And again, your total honesty and your your art.

00:55:07:29 - 00:55:33:40
Unknown
And I wish you, all the success. And I hope, I can get you back in down the trail. Cool. So we can get, a report card from y'all, just to see how how things are going. You know, I love that. Thanks for doing. And, yeah, I think a valuable service. I hope, I hope folks, that, you go to Charlie's site, check out his music, visit his store.

00:55:33:45 - 00:56:02:13
Unknown
The this is really important, you know, because that way you are part of the creative process as well. And, you know, artists need to know that, that they're out there. That's how it works, you know? And, you know, that we we are living in an age, I feel, where we have to train our audiences as musicians.

00:56:02:18 - 00:56:27:46
Unknown
The the responsibility of being an audience. Because we're in a gimme and I get it in 10s age, you know, with stuff like Spotify. But, that's for another podcast and that's, you know, I'll get off my soapbox and let Charlie finish out this, this interview. What do you got? Okay. This is a song.

00:56:27:50 - 00:56:54:33
Unknown
This is the last song of my new album. And, it's called Take Tomorrow off, and it's kind of got a list of all the things that, somebody up to do this exercise where I write down maybe five things that I would like somebody to say to me. Cool. Good exercise. And, yeah.

00:57:07:46 - 00:57:16:15
Unknown
You.

00:57:16:20 - 00:57:25:20
Unknown
Take tomorrow. So.

00:57:25:25 - 00:57:44:46
Unknown
Why don't. You don't know. Who? You. What you do the extra credit.

00:57:44:51 - 00:57:54:07
Unknown
You finish. You work. Okay.

00:57:54:11 - 00:57:59:57
Unknown
And I know what you're going gonna say.

00:58:00:02 - 00:58:09:34
Unknown
But you go the way you go.

00:58:09:39 - 00:58:17:08
Unknown
You gonna show you, where you,

00:58:17:12 - 00:58:29:18
Unknown
You. Because you clear the way. Hey.

00:58:29:22 - 00:58:38:28
Unknown
Yeah. You're on your way home. Any.

00:58:38:33 - 00:58:52:39
Unknown
Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo. Do you do?

00:58:52:44 - 00:59:15:07
Unknown
Do doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo do doo doo.

00:59:15:12 - 00:59:24:52
Unknown
Say oh no, no.

00:59:24:56 - 00:59:36:09
Unknown
I keep you safe from all the no. Hide.

00:59:36:14 - 00:59:46:27
Unknown
I know you want it from the start. You.

00:59:46:32 - 01:00:57:53
Unknown
Have always seen your tender heart. My sensitive one. And I know what you think you know. What? You good? You. Oh. You can't be sure. Just have you, I said, you good. Just as you, Oh. And. No, don't be for anything big. Some days, like a day away. He was. Passed away in business. I hold you in my, I miss you.

01:00:57:53 - 01:01:46:01
Unknown
Let your heart is. But I won't let you. Along with everything. A smile on your face. You could tell it could play. And I can whisper you let the earth embrace the sun I got you in my heart I. You let your heart. You. Your heart. And let's take tomorrow.

01:01:46:01 - 01:02:03:44
Unknown
Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit Martin mccormack.com while there. Sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

01:02:03:49 - 01:02:16:36
Unknown
It's so strong. Spain, we feel, makes no sense at all. The swan song wasn't part of the deal, was no good. All giving no choice. Giving us a.