Strung Out Episode 274: AROUND THE CAMPFIRE WITH PASTOR DREW JACQUES

Podcast Overview

• Show: Strung Out
• Host: Martin Laurence McCormack ("Marty")
• Guest: Reverend Drew Jacques (from St. David's Church in Campbellsville, Ontario)

Key Topics & Summary

1. Community Hub & Local Updates (00:00 – 02:30)

Reverend Drew discusses how St. David’s has recently transitioned into a community hub, hosting local summer camps to revitalize the space and support the Milton Community Resource Center.

2. Geopolitics & U.S.–Canada Dynamics (02:30 – 08:30)

• Canadian Politics: Drew notes general Canadian approval for Prime Minister Mark Carney and praises former MP Charlie Angus for articulating popular sentiment.
• U.S. Political Influence: They discuss media reports on U.S. politicians attempting to restrict Canadian sales of American goods and criticize political posturing/hubris across the border.
• Global Partnerships: Drew highlights Canada’s move to diversify international ties—such as acquiring submarines from Germany and strengthening trade relations—signaling a shift toward greater independence from U.S. political instability.

3. Christian Nationalism & Cult Dynamics (08:30 – 25:30)

• The "Ghosts of the Civil War": Drew argues that lingering racial and political divisions in the U.S. fuel extreme political movements.
• Christian Nationalism & Cult Mentality: They critique how right-wing movements and televangelists have "bastardized" Christianity. Drew explains how cults function: a narcissistic leader uses fear and chaos to gain absolute trust, promising safety in exchange for control.
• Core Christian Values vs. Modern Politics: Drew contrasts Christian nationalism with true faith, emphasizing that genuine teachings (e.g., Matthew 25) focus on feeding the hungry, welcoming the stranger, and building inclusive, compassionate communities.

4. Musical Interlude: "Fear" (27:03 – 31:19)

A musical segment featuring a song about navigating fear, uncertainty, and personal growth as both a "friend and a foe."

5. Forgiveness, Accountability, & Moving Forward (31:20 – 46:30)

• Handling Toxicity: The hosts debate how to respond to people caught up in destructive political or religious mindsets.
• Forgiveness vs. Reconciliation: Drew clarifies that forgiveness is about letting go of personal bitterness and chaos so you can move on—it does not require remaining in toxic relationships or condoning bad actions.
• Focusing on Community: Instead of arguing with hostile individuals, the solution is building resilient, supportive local communities that model positive values.

6. Revitalizing St. David's: "Church in a Circle" (46:30 – 58:41)

• Overcoming Institutional Struggles: Drew shares the difficulties St. David’s faced, including past leadership disputes, corruption, and financial strain.
• A New Model for Worship: To adapt, they moved services to the basement and introduced "Church in a Circle"—a communal, non-hierarchical gathering combining three key traditions:
  1. John 21 (informal fellowship and shared meals).
  2. Shabbat Dinner (gathering around a table to reflect and share).
  3. First Nations Listening Circle (passing a symbolic light source so everyone has a voice without interruption).
• Turning the Tide: This new approach revitalized their congregation, stabilized their finances, and provided a meaningful path forward away from rigid institutional norms.

Transcript

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:18
Unknown
Welcome to Strung Out, the podcast that looks at life through the lens of an artist. Your host is the artist, writer and musician Martin Lawrence McCormack. Now here's Marty.

00:00:14:18 - 00:00:24:06
Unknown
have you with us. Welcome to Strung Out. We are back with the Reverend Two Jakes from Campbellsville, Ontario.

00:00:24:07 - 00:00:54:09
Unknown
And, how come your picture looks so much nicer than mine? I don't know. You have a camera link? Well, no, no, it's just the, It's the I iMac air. Oh, nice. Well, there's a plug for that. Dell, keep working at it. Long time. Yeah, it's been a long time. Good to see you. And then we have, a lot of catching up for people that have followed our podcasts in the past.

00:00:54:10 - 00:01:18:07
Unknown
We have gone through a lot of different things that we've talked about. And it's been, like you said, it's been a while, and I think it's important for us to, first of all, hear from a real Canadian what's going up in Canada? It's the last time we talked, we were just kind of about to enter the swirly that is American politics.

00:01:18:07 - 00:01:43:15
Unknown
Geopolitics. And Canada, of course, was right there at the front. Having to deal with what was, coming down the pike. And has, in my feeling, has managed very well from this side of the fence. This side of the border, I should say. But what's your take? How are things? What's the what's the mood?

00:01:45:02 - 00:01:51:09
Unknown
Just let me close the door and I'll tell you what.

00:01:51:11 - 00:02:18:08
Unknown
We're closing the door because he's going to know I'll talk about it a little bit later. But one of the things we've done is we've we've transitioned to becoming a community hub. Oh, nice. And we have the Milton, Community Resource Center running their their summer camps here this summer. And it's made a huge difference. We can talk about that later.

00:02:18:10 - 00:02:44:10
Unknown
The mood up here. Yeah. You know, it is what it is, right? I know we we're I think generally across the board Canadians are pretty pleased with Mark Carney's performance. Our Prime Minister. Yeah. And and there's a so I don't know if you know Charlie Angus. Yes. You find him on Midas Touch I believe in. Yeah.

00:02:44:12 - 00:03:11:07
Unknown
Elbows up. Yeah. An American musician and. Yeah. Former MP. Yep. An amazing guy. And from cobalt. And he was a neighbor to us when we lived up in Haileybury. And, you know, if people haven't, you know, Charlie can lean a little harsh sometimes, but it's a buddy. He's expressing a lot of the feelings. And, telling it like it is.

00:03:12:18 - 00:03:43:14
Unknown
The big news on CDC, this morning was about some Republican senator from upstate New York is trying to pass a bill about Canadians cutting off the sale of American alcohol in, in our provinces. You know, the wording was just bizarre. Yeah. And she's not a I think she's in her fourth term, but it's not it's not the the inner circle that's putting this forward.

00:03:44:14 - 00:04:09:19
Unknown
Is this a kind of like one of these, Republican MAGA people that just wants, wants to stir the pot for the pot? Yeah. The only other bill she tried to pass was to make Donald don't want to say his name. Yeah. That person had his birthday, a national holiday. So he, you know, I have just.

00:04:09:21 - 00:04:32:22
Unknown
I have an interesting idea. You know, Stone mountain, Georgia. You know, that's where all those Confederate generals were. You know, isn't there something carved on the side of the mountain? Yeah. Why don't they turn that into the mountain of shame? And you can put you can carve all the people that you know. I mean, they they're off to a good start, you know, but that's, that's just a thought.

00:04:32:23 - 00:05:05:17
Unknown
You know, I mean, because, these that if this person that we're talking about wants to be memorialized forever, I can't think of a better place to memorialize that person. Yeah. The bunch of traitors to, Yeah. But maybe. Maybe adapted into a George and Uluru from, Australia. Right. I think it's funny that, you know, the amount of hubris on this, the American side, with the idea that we can tell a sovereign nation or try to even legislate something for a sovereign nation.

00:05:05:19 - 00:05:40:23
Unknown
Hubris or maybe ignorance. Take your pick. I mean, they're both kind of, They're just. They're both highly insulting, I think, you know, just, to the, the average human being thinking, that, but this is this is, I guess my question. You know, do you see from, from there in Canada, do you see any light at the end of the tunnel yet, or are we still working our way, toward, like, the American midterms?

00:05:42:23 - 00:05:52:16
Unknown
Yeah. There was something in your country that, you know, we should be taking note of down here for hope. Well.

00:05:52:18 - 00:06:21:17
Unknown
There's a loaded question, Marty. And take your time. Take your time. Well, I think we're all just sort of holding our breath for the midterms. I think that bunch are just getting to figure out they're in trouble. Yeah. My, my message to you and all your brethren is get out and vote. Man. There's just no excuse anymore.

00:06:21:17 - 00:06:48:17
Unknown
Yeah. No. There's no. And and you know, so we're waiting with bated breath like that. The one thing our country has been doing, like crazy is developing, new partnerships globally. Yeah. Around the world yesterday, they just announced that they're buying 12 submarines from Germany. Right. You know, and worked out better deals with China and India and the EU.

00:06:48:17 - 00:07:17:12
Unknown
We're actually I think we're officially a member of the EU now. Oh, I didn't know that. That's. Yeah, that's that's pretty cool. Yeah. And with the the submarine sale, I think it's interesting to note that this, this kind of shows where your prime minister I think is such a good statesman he bought from a NATO partner. And it's going toward, you know, this old, you know, we need to get every NATO country to 5% of their GDP for defense.

00:07:17:14 - 00:07:42:12
Unknown
I mean, it's it's a what's not to like kind of thing. But yet at the same time, it also sends a clear message to the United States that we can't trust you, you know, and, and that's that's okay. I think, you know, I mean, I think I, I don't think right now the country can be trusted. You know, a key piece here in Canada for pretty much all things.

00:07:42:13 - 00:08:04:18
Unknown
I mean, we get we've been infected a little bit with that red, that pink haze. You know, but the vast majority of us are able to differentiate between that institution at the top and everything is going on there. And the one on one, you know, it's not it's, you know, I love you, man. It's not on your shoulders.

00:08:04:19 - 00:08:27:23
Unknown
It is. You're living through it as much as I am. I'm just on the other side of the fence. Right. And it's not going to break our relationship. But until such time, And I don't know, I like to believe the damage that has been done can be repaired. On the one hand. And I also think,

00:08:28:00 - 00:08:55:24
Unknown
This is a job. Fate for the United States of America, if you know what I mean by that. Everybody goes through job phases in their lives where you get stripped down and. And just to backtrack a bit, many years ago, Lisa and I took a trip down to Myrtle Beach, and we drove through the Appalachians on Easter Sunday listening to Handel's Messiah on the satellite radio.

00:08:56:01 - 00:09:32:13
Unknown
And I think the thing that struck us going through the Appalachians and through the Carolinas was the ghosts of the Civil War. They were still floating around and and what you know, we know that it's about Make America White again and bring back Jim Crow. Yeah, yeah. And in it, that wound has to be healed. You know, and I think part of this is it raising its ugly head hopefully for the last time.

00:09:32:15 - 00:10:02:23
Unknown
Yeah. Right. It sure seems like I think if, if I'm hoping it's the last time because it's, it seems like it's such a virulent O you know, thing that, that it God forbid that it's not the last time it has to be rooted out, you know? Yeah. So the wild card, I mean, you know. Can make it disastrous.

00:10:03:00 - 00:10:33:00
Unknown
But I think I think the people have, you know, and it just. And that not to get preachy, but I'm a preacher so it's suffering through this life lesson. You know, Jesus was always warning about false prophets, right? And he was always constantly warning about those who would go out of their way to deceive people. Right. And there's a lot of crazies at the top who are buying into.

00:10:33:02 - 00:10:55:22
Unknown
This almost belief that that this fellow is the second coming. You know, and there was a speech not too long ago that some guy when he was talking was in this new ballroom that, that God placed so and so here. Right, so that there could be all room. Right. And, and I think, I think this is my perspective.

00:10:56:00 - 00:11:21:01
Unknown
There's a, there's a bastardization of Christianity going on. Oh, absolutely. And I think there's a bastardization of American democracy. I mean, I, I can buy it to I could, I can pledge the oath of allegiance. Not a problem. Right. I get it, and I support them and we support them. And I think there's also a bastardization of American history.

00:11:21:03 - 00:11:44:06
Unknown
Yeah. You know, I mean, some some stuff went on and again, you go back to the ghosts of the Civil War that are still floating around. But you learn from your mistakes. Right. And I think I think there's a need for a real conversation, you know, within certainly within the church. Certainly. I think Christian communities. About what?

00:11:44:06 - 00:12:12:07
Unknown
What is our relationship to power? Well, let's let's let's hang on there for a second, because I think the idea of Christian nationalism isn't something that just, you know, it's it's spooky. It's it's not just I don't think, an American problem. I think what you're touching on, I mean, it's something that, can easily be picked up by, any democracy and has been and has been.

00:12:12:07 - 00:12:46:22
Unknown
And it just seems like this is our turn at the dance, and God forbid that it ever has to go to any other democracy, like, you know, like Canada. Hopefully, hopefully, it's it's the kind of thing that, Canadians and I'm pretty sure are looking at and saying, well, we can learn from this, you know, and, but this idea of Christian nationalism, in your professional opinion, where where did this all get going?

00:12:46:22 - 00:13:17:01
Unknown
I mean, is it the Civil War? Is it that original sin of slavery or is it something else that's kind of come in, crept in because, you could say that, you know, the, certainly the, the German, the Nazis, at that time invoked God, Hitler invoked God. So there there is that idea of like, you know, our side is right regardless.

00:13:17:01 - 00:13:35:23
Unknown
Right. But it's it's kind of, where do you think it, where do you think, in your professional opinion, it came from and why? Well, it's so why why in the 21st centuries is so such an appealing thing.

00:13:36:00 - 00:13:55:02
Unknown
Well, another tough question. So, yeah, I'm trying to remember when on our computers, we had a little dial, a little sand dial that would spin around right. But you're saying. Yeah, well, it's, you know, just have at it, because I know you'll get it. You'll you'll get the answer out because I know who you are. But, where it where it.

00:13:55:08 - 00:13:58:19
Unknown
Okay, so.

00:13:58:21 - 00:14:26:22
Unknown
Is it the Civil War? Was about racism. Right. And there was a bunch you didn't want to have racists and didn't want to have slaves, and another wanted to hang on to it in that bunch, continue to hang on to it. You know the KKK, they're still floating around out there. Right. Right. In the religious right.

00:14:26:24 - 00:15:05:16
Unknown
It was focus on the word right. I think, well, in I think the Nazi playbook has been read in what's going on here? And then you throw into the mix. The hyper evangelicals of the depression and postwar and and Billy Graham. And and just to take a side turn, if you, if you Google Franklin Graham, he gives a speech about America going down the drain.

00:15:05:18 - 00:15:31:05
Unknown
And they always hit on transgenders and gays and they always go after the, the weakest link. And set up that right. In that my perspective and my understanding and my religion is right and you're wrong. Right. And what that is, is, theocracy. And in.

00:15:31:07 - 00:16:21:23
Unknown
In my mind, theocracy. That that religious right. You know, God's at the center. And this is our understanding of God. And you're in. Who's in? Who's out in whatever theocracy is the most dangerous form of government. Out there, especially when you have a tyrant who thinks they're on a mission from God. You, you know, you're touching on the evangelicals and it seems that, a lot of this is all tied up with the idea of, the rapture, the idea of the end times, the idea that, Israel, you know, the Israeli nation has to, the there's that, tie in that, Israel has to become whatever it's supposed to become

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:46:22
Unknown
in order to have Armageddon and bring back Jesus. I mean, that's pretty much it, right? Isn't that that's the kind of. That's insane. There's people who believe in that. You're going to have a nuclear holocaust, and Jesus is going to come back and save the world. Yeah. In Israel. I don't have a problem with Israel, per se. In, in in a homeland.

00:16:48:22 - 00:17:11:20
Unknown
I think they could have done a better job how they set it up in the beginning. That wouldn't have caused a lot of these problems 70 years later. I don't think Israel there's a word I'm, I'm trying to find. Israel is more of a Zionist nation in that it's it's political in, in their guy over there is just as much a loon as your guy.

00:17:12:19 - 00:17:40:22
Unknown
And he sucked you right into a pile of shit. Right. For, for, for historically that guy in Israel visit Washington with every president going back at least, if not Jimmy Carter. Ronald Reagan in the bushes and made the same appeal that they've got access to nuclear weapons. And we got to get them out. And every one of them said, no, we're not going down that path.

00:17:40:24 - 00:18:15:01
Unknown
But he snowed your guy right in, and now you're in up to your neck with no way out. Right? Yeah. Sunny and who, you know, I mean, I don't think our guy is that smart enough anyway, so there's people that are pulling the strings that, that I feel encouraged him, encouraged, them to do this. And that's that's the thing that frightens me a little more is just like, who the hell are these people?

00:18:15:03 - 00:18:46:16
Unknown
Because you have those people that are the evangelical, hard leaning, you know, red white supremacists, white supremacists. But then you have these the, the other guys that are coming in. I just read where Peter Thiel, the AI guy, just got, a big meeting that he was going to have in Ireland got, canceled by the hotel because, they don't want to have that kind of thing.

00:18:46:16 - 00:19:13:03
Unknown
And among the topics was going to be, nuclear holocaust, the building of cults and the use of AI. I mean, and so that's a whole other faction that's at play here in this world. Well, and the key word you just see is cults. Okay? We have a plethora of cults. And let's just look at what a cult is for a moment.

00:19:13:03 - 00:19:40:14
Unknown
A cult is, in my historic perspective, usually headed up by a narcissist who's who's only interested in power and control and what the power and control is in it. Say, I'm the leader of a cult. The world is a scary place. Party, and it's out of control and you're in danger. But I can protect you. I can keep you safe.

00:19:40:16 - 00:20:12:17
Unknown
I will build up a barrier, a fence, a belief system that will block all of that out. And all you have to do to trust me. And and follow my directives. And as long as you stay on the inside, you'll be fine. It's not true. But that's, that is because when people's lives are chaotic and this chaos around the human tendency is to point the finger and blame the other rather than taking responsibility for yourself.

00:20:12:17 - 00:20:37:12
Unknown
And the worst example ever of of where a cult can go, that that is a template for where this all can go, with Jim Jones in Jonestown. Sure. Right. It started a cult in California it didn't like, but, you know, and was getting hemmed in and was falling apart and moved to Guyana, Guyana, somewhere in South Africa.

00:20:37:12 - 00:21:04:07
Unknown
And then, you know, told them that the, somebody CIA, FBI, Army or whoever was coming in, we're going to have to bring you're going to be destroyed in jail by these beings. And then they all drank the Kool-Aid. Yeah, South America, South America again. And that and that, so that the cults feed on, anger. Implant anger.

00:21:04:24 - 00:21:26:08
Unknown
Feed on prejudice, feed on blaming the other guy rather than taking responsibility. And that's how, the Christian right, the theocracy operates, right. And a whole lot of people who bought it whole it's boys know. And we're, we're given promises. We're going to bring down the price of gas. We're going to bring down the price of food.

00:21:26:08 - 00:21:55:20
Unknown
We're going to, we're going to do this, we're going to. And as it happened, you know it's taken two years for people to go, wait a minute. This isn't happening. And as a pastor, one of one of my things is. Faith in Jesus. And and I'm okay with people not wanting or liking the institutional church in, in, in Canada, in the next five years, 4500 little churches are going to close.

00:21:55:22 - 00:22:22:02
Unknown
Bam. And that's a whole other subject. We can get it right. We'll have to. But yeah, but faith in Jesus ultimately should lead away from theocracy and away from Christian nationalism. And it should move you toward a multi-racial, multicultural democracy where all can freely love God and fully love your neighbor. Right? You know you can love God.

00:22:22:02 - 00:22:44:15
Unknown
You can love your neighbor. You need, you know, that's it. In in the place to start in looking at all of this is we got to go back to and again not getting preachy, but in Matthew 25 that's the there's two bits there. And a positive and a negative. And the negative is I was hungry, you gave me no meal.

00:22:44:17 - 00:23:05:24
Unknown
Right, right. So what do you do to them. You do to me. So when you take away the food that's necessary to keep people alive in third world country, you did the Jesus. I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, right? I was homeless and you gave me no bed, I was shivering, you gave me no clothes.

00:23:05:24 - 00:23:32:08
Unknown
I was sick and in prison. And you never visited me right in your average Christian, you know, should should be able to understand it. But we're dealing with Christians here that that, they've subjugated. I've given that on their head, you know, I mean, they would say, you know. Well, Reverend, you know, that's not my thing. Jesus.

00:23:32:10 - 00:23:57:24
Unknown
How do you respond to the people that have, you know, that are in your community that feel that they have, this this, for lack of better terms, this, time culture. Yeah. Intolerant. Jesus. Let's put we'll put it, you know, it's like mega and all these kind of far right movements have taken Christ and the.

00:23:58:01 - 00:24:29:17
Unknown
They're holding him hostage, you know? How do you know? So how do you reason with somebody like that? You don't you don't. And again, narcissism, I mean, we're all susceptible to narcissism and and those people. There's no arguing. And it's not my job to convince anybody. Right. It's my job to try and set an example and teach the truth.

00:24:29:19 - 00:24:50:12
Unknown
Right. And live the truth, which is I was hungry and you fed me. You did that to me. Jesus, I was thirsty. You gave me something to drink, I was homeless and you gave me a room, I was shivering, you gave me clothes, I was sick, and you stopped a visit. You know, it's the to do list, right?

00:24:50:14 - 00:25:22:22
Unknown
And. And what we the ones who who, think it's okay to, And it's a hard example for many men in Minneapolis. Oh, yeah. Alex. Pray. And what was the girl's name? Oh, yes. Renee. Good. Renee. Good. And Alex. Pretty. Yeah. Fuck, yeah. You know, and then they turn around and call them terrorists. Yeah. Right. And the band started playing and beating the drum, and it's just not true.

00:25:22:24 - 00:25:44:05
Unknown
And I'm. I'm horrified and sickened and. But I think there's other people who are equally horrified and sickened and are trying to figure out a way. As bad as this mess is, how do we make it work? Well, we make it work by building community. We're coming up on a half an hour. Sure. Ready. But, and we'll take a little break.

00:25:46:16 - 00:26:35:09
Unknown
But I want to ask you, into the next half. How do you hold those people accountable when the people that have that have done these unspeakable things, what is the Christian thing to do? What if, you know, I'll just leave it at that. If you were able to get all the people that have done this stuff rounded up, you know, and, and put in a Nuremberg kind of situation, I just want to know what from a pastor's point, you have to do and, and, or we should all be thinking about or, what, you know, because that day's coming, right?

00:26:35:12 - 00:27:03:07
Unknown
It's got to come. Right. Eventually. Hopefully. Okay. Well, we're going to take a break. And on that hopeful note with, we are with the Reverend Drew Jakes, and he is at Saint David's of Campbellsville, Ontario, beautiful Ontario. And, and a beautiful summer day. And we are, strung out around the campfire again.

00:27:03:07 - 00:27:50:17
Unknown
When I was a kid, it lived under my bed.

00:27:50:19 - 00:27:56:10
Unknown
When I was older, I lived in my closet.

00:27:56:12 - 00:28:36:09
Unknown
Nowadays, it likes to live in my head. There's just no way I can dodge it. Feel is a friend and a foe. Feel. It's with me wherever I go. Be no fear A fool but a friend. And it's gonna be with me to end up here. Whenever there's something new that holds me back.

00:28:36:11 - 00:28:42:00
Unknown
If there's a change. Gets me on my.

00:28:42:02 - 00:29:22:06
Unknown
When I wanna leap, it attacks. How can something so good be so bad? You feel. Is a friend and a foe. Feel. This with me wherever I go. We know, feel. A foam on a friend. And it's gonna be with me to the end. I feel I.

00:29:22:08 - 00:29:35:00
Unknown
I maybe.

00:29:35:02 - 00:29:39:05
Unknown
It's.

00:29:39:07 - 00:29:50:15
Unknown
I see it lifting you. When I look in your eyes. See? Let's work together and find a way.

00:29:50:17 - 00:30:24:00
Unknown
To get over. Up there and through it. Love it. And finally make out there. Obey. Feel. It's a friend and a foe. Feel. It's with me. Whenever I know, we know. Feel. A bump on a friend. And it's gonna be with me.

00:30:24:02 - 00:30:53:20
Unknown
Feel is a friend and a foe. Feel. This with me. Wherever I go. We don't feel. A foe but a friend. And it's gonna be with me today I.

00:30:53:22 - 00:30:59:02
Unknown
I.

00:30:59:04 - 00:31:19:04
Unknown
I.

00:31:19:04 - 00:31:50:10
Unknown
we are back. Okay. I, I, I get the idea where we just to kind of recap a little bit. We are dealing with people that, bought to a cult. A cult is when you surrender your free will for security and the belief that you're right. Just kind of, sort of paraphrasing what you said and that the cult is able to do unspeakable horrors in the name of.

00:31:50:10 - 00:32:20:02
Unknown
Right. Going against, you know, from a Christian sense, going against the, the Beatitudes and going against, you know, Christ's teachings to the point where they can justify the murder of people who are actually trying to show by example those teachings. So we've actually had some Christian martyrs, or at least martyrs. On the scene that have stood up there was trying to stand up for people's rights and they got killed.

00:32:20:22 - 00:32:59:15
Unknown
So my question before the break was, if that day comes where these people can be brought to justice or is there going to be justice or or even better yet, drew, let's assume that we live in a world where we're not going to have the Nuremberg kind of experience, where I think, like the person that's in charge of this country right now is probably going to die in a sleep, and we'll never have that feeling of accountability, that that satisfaction or anything like that.

00:33:00:18 - 00:33:38:11
Unknown
Do we need it? No. And and just on that note, should that person be called to their eternal reward, which we all pray for? It it is the fellow in on base number two has the ability to pardon, you know, and and there's a loop there. The I don't want to get into. Okay. That's not my responsibility.

00:33:38:11 - 00:34:10:07
Unknown
So what do we do? What do we do? And this is the heart one that these people are. You remember Casablanca. Wait, when Louis says to Rick, well, what the hell brought you to Casablanca? And Rick was I came for the waters. And Louis says there are no waters. And Rick says I was misinformed. Right. And these people are misinformed.

00:34:10:07 - 00:34:40:06
Unknown
They have their priorities in the wrong place. They're causing incredible damage and hurt because they think they're right and they're grifters and they're greedy. And that's part of the human condition. We can't stand here and say, I, I'd never do that. You know, it's it's within my capacity. What I'm trying to do is sublimate that negative capacity and full light.

00:34:40:08 - 00:34:50:19
Unknown
Right. And what that means with those people is ultimately, God did two things. One, I got to forgive them.

00:34:50:21 - 00:35:22:09
Unknown
Which is hard, especially when you've been hurt. But you can't. And forgiveness isn't saying, oh, it's okay. Whatever you did was just fine. You've forgiven it. It's brushed under the carpet with no forgiveness means I'm going to let go of whatever pain and chaos. You're not going to ask me. It's I forgive you but the follow up is in forgiveness.

00:35:22:09 - 00:35:45:15
Unknown
It never gets talked about. And somebody said well I can forgive but I can't forget. Well you got to let it go so you can be free to move on. And forgiveness does not mean reconciliation. I forgive you. Goodbye. I don't need this in my life. I don't need your evil in my life. I do not want this in my life.

00:35:45:15 - 00:36:16:21
Unknown
And I don't want this in your life. There's a better way. And we need to. We're getting kicked in the ass because we got off track. Right in, in in it. Well so the path And where is the little sand out. Well I'm throwing I'm throwing a pretty loaded and heavy question. Is it. Because it can, it can percolate down to like your parish, your church.

00:36:16:23 - 00:36:48:06
Unknown
Yeah. We, we, we run into people that are in cults all the time. They just might not have so much affiliations that, notoriety, like, you know, the, the, the one that, you know, the world is currently enduring, from the United States. But what you're talking about, then the idea of you can forgive. But you're talking about forgive.

00:36:48:06 - 00:36:52:23
Unknown
But should you forget?

00:36:53:00 - 00:37:26:13
Unknown
Well, it insofar as you shouldn't let it. Not away at you. Okay. You need to remember the historic precedent and the bad that was done right. But you you can't let it percolate and boil because it'll take over. You, okay? And direct you. And forgiveness is. I'm not going to forget, you know, that you you know Jesus. You know, he was talking to I was sharing, and you gave me those clothes I sick, and he stopped in.

00:37:26:13 - 00:37:56:12
Unknown
That's when you eliminate people's Medicare, right? You're you're. I can't forget that. And I have to help somehow find a way to help the system, to bring it back. And not allow that to be taken. In the starting point, I think, you know, I'll get to Saint David's in a second, but there's there's an interpretation of the Bible called The Message.

00:37:56:14 - 00:38:23:23
Unknown
I don't know if you've heard of the message. It's by, but tell us a little bit about it. Well, it's, it's it's it's not it's not necessarily a word for word translation. Okay. But it is, it does. It captures the spirit. Okay. And so in the message in, Matthew 11, Jesus, the interpretation is Jesus says, are you tired?

00:38:24:00 - 00:38:43:16
Unknown
Are you worn out? Are you burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you'll recover your life. I'll show you how to take a real rest, walk with me and work with me and watch how I do it and learn. And this is the key. And learn the unforced rhythms of grace. Oh, beautiful.

00:38:43:18 - 00:39:18:13
Unknown
I learned the enforcement. I won't lay anything heavy or ill fitting on you. Just keep company with me and live freely and lightly. Freely and lightly. Right. So and and so. You can't forget but have to work at building resilient community and relationships. What went wrong here, then? Drew, I mean, what what went wrong to to to you know, we went through this thing in World War Two.

00:39:18:15 - 00:40:03:07
Unknown
We said never again. Yeah. That would we would allow fascism. And, and then this religious extremism, and and without, you know, overburdening both of us with trying to explain it, but, you know, you have, like you said, the goes to the Civil War, plus this, this weird religious right, plus this fascism, these people that are born into this, there's going to be a huge mass of people at the end of the day that are going to be milling around going, you know, well, I got screwed.

00:40:03:09 - 00:40:23:16
Unknown
Yeah. What now? You know. So like what, what is your advice? I mean, what is your, you know, what do you. And that's why I said, like, I know it can percolate even down to Saint David's where you can have, you know, some grumpy person that's gunning for you that may not necessarily be part of the cop, but they just don't like the way you preach.

00:40:23:18 - 00:40:45:04
Unknown
You know what we got? We got rid of them. Oh, okay. Well, that was our show, folks. Hope you know, no, I tell you, I'd say I just answer it. Somebody who's bitter and angry is going to be bitter and angry. My job is to love that person, but not get sucked into their bitterness and their angles.

00:40:45:06 - 00:41:14:17
Unknown
Anger. Right. And just try to set an example in my life and try to encourage and help people go down the path of being light and eventually where where it went wrong and just. Do you remember all the televangelists back in the 80s? Oh, absolutely. That's when it went into Turbo Boost. Yeah. Right. In in the fan. Those flames with, you know, bought into, you know, races and whatever.

00:41:14:19 - 00:41:37:19
Unknown
And also the, the, the the gospel of prosperity. You believe in Jesus. You're going to make a lot of money. And there's huge churches to this day where the guy is driving a Rolls-Royce and flying a car. Right. And I got friends. There's a big one down the street here called Hope. That's huge. They have, you know, on Easter Sunday, they have they have four services and bring in over 7000 people.

00:41:37:21 - 00:42:09:10
Unknown
Wow. And I know a couple of people like, you know, but they're, they're anti-gay. They actually have I don't know what what it's called specifically, but they have a program where they try to reprogram gay people to not be gay. Oh my God. So they've they're into that. They're into that. Right. And, and this gal, just recently got an adult baptism because she was told, well, your baptism didn't count because you're baptized as a child and you didn't have consent, but.

00:42:09:10 - 00:42:26:15
Unknown
And then they have to get in order to talk and pray with others. They have to be certified by this church to, to meet their, you know, like you work. And she's always asking me, so why don't you come with me? At least I can't, you know, you're anti-abortion, you're anti-gay, you're anti. Christ. No, I'm not your,

00:42:26:17 - 00:43:00:22
Unknown
Why don't you be right? And then why don't you leave while I'm in deep? Well, what does that mean? Well, into deep means their their pockets are being tapped. Right. So money. And what was the question? Well, well, you know, the question is, is, is, is, I'll, worded, again, we're going to be left with these people at the end of the day, we're going to be left with family members, we're going to be left with neighbors.

00:43:00:24 - 00:43:35:02
Unknown
We're going to be left with, people that that, we're very vocal, very, violent to some degree. And, and so I know the understanding. Forgive and forget, but is there anything more that can be done? But you need to realize, yeah, there's going to be bitter, angry people everywhere. Always and always, forever and ever. Man.

00:43:35:16 - 00:43:56:10
Unknown
Right. But Jesus came to say are you tired. Are you weren't that, are you burned out. Are you tired of being angry. They're tired of, you know, fighting you know, institutions. Are you tired. Look, Jesus never came to establish an organized religion. He came to give you the power to dwell in the kingdom of God, in the here and now.

00:43:57:09 - 00:44:14:03
Unknown
You know, the notion one of the notion that the institutional church plays on is that, you know, you can do whatever the fuck you want in this life. And if you believe in Jesus, you're going to heaven. You're going to meet a Santa Claus, a god that looks like Santa Claus sitting on a cloud. That's not what's going on in this life.

00:44:14:03 - 00:44:39:16
Unknown
We're here to experience each other, to love creation, to go. How did this happen? And people forget we're here for a limited time. You know the clock's ticking. The moment you are born the clock is ticking and I'm closer. Yeah. It's a friend said to me life is like a roll of toilet paper. The closer you get to the end the faster it goes.

00:44:39:18 - 00:45:08:12
Unknown
Yeah, it seems that way. It doesn't. It. Right. Yeah, yeah. And. And while I'm alive, they're going to be there. I have to have my force fields. I forgive you, but you're not going to suck me into the thing. And if you want to live in that anger and that bitterness, it's going to kill you. We're all going to die, but I'm going to try and die happy and positive and faithful.

00:45:08:14 - 00:45:32:24
Unknown
Right. And our calling is to do this. Meet eyeball to eyeball and have discussions sip comfort and support each other. Say yeah you're going through some stuff and you got some bad people around you. But look at all the good people you got around you. And where are you focusing your attention. Wow. That's a great point. I mean, as part of, a, a defense mechanism, so to speak.

00:45:35:04 - 00:46:05:14
Unknown
You know, focusing on the positive. What's your advice there? Because so many people are like, well, geez, you know what? How do I start these days? I mean, you know, with your the stranger in the street, so to speak, what do you do? You know, it's such a volatile and dangerous time right now that if you try to, you know, you can get well for just being here.

00:46:05:17 - 00:46:36:00
Unknown
We could get hammered for just talking like this. Sure. Bring it on. I always wanted to try to. Heretic. Well, you might get your wish. Careful what you wish for. Yeah. You know, so. Let me put this in the context of Saint David's. A little church, that I honestly believe God brought me here because God knew the shit that was going to hit the fan.

00:46:36:24 - 00:47:03:23
Unknown
And wanted me here to navigate that five years of brutality, cleaning things up and one of one of the two of the narcissists had their finger and every slice of the pie in the running of the operation, including the cemetery. And they were busy trying to turn the cemetery into, a private, for profit entity that would support their retirement.

00:47:04:00 - 00:47:26:17
Unknown
Oh, my lord. Right. And we caught him. But then they went to presbyter. So in the Presbyterian church is a series of courts, like there's the local session here. Next there's presbytery, then there's Synod, then there's General Assembly. And it follows the same pattern in the Catholic Church. Only instead of bishops, we have presbyteries where people are supposed to talk.

00:47:26:19 - 00:47:55:03
Unknown
In a long story short, they caught them. Then they went to presbytery and told all kinds of lies like, I allowed a registered sex offender into the church. And it just went on and on and on and on. And presbytery bought it because it presbytery is run by narcissists. Right. And eventually, eventually we got an outside group to come in and investigate, and they wrote an 88 page report completely exonerating us from everything.

00:47:55:05 - 00:48:17:20
Unknown
Right. But they're they're still in power there. And I want nothing to do in the meantime. And I'll just quick aside, when I first came here, for my first interview, they, they decided they wanted to have a private chat after meeting and talk with me. And I went into the sanctuary in the sanctuary, it just oozed darkness and almost evil.

00:48:17:22 - 00:48:41:17
Unknown
Yeah. And only the only place that I've ever felt that level was in a place in Italy called Bologna. Okay. Familiar with Bologna. Not familiar with I mean I know the town but yeah there's, there's a church there and I can't remember the name, but in the church, in the church is where they conducted, the Spanish Inquisition.

00:48:41:19 - 00:49:09:10
Unknown
Ooh. And condemned people to death. And you walk into that room and your hair stands up on his neck because the evil, the residual that it's there is residual. It's there. So I believe that. So we've been fighting that for years. And this last Christmas, last December, we didn't know if we were going to make Christmas. Yeah. Financially.

00:49:12:21 - 00:49:39:19
Unknown
But we did. And starting in January we couldn't afford to heat the, the sanctuary. So but we have to heat the basement because that's where the pipes are. So we moved worship down into the basement. Wow. And and we started something called church in a circle. And from my perspective, the pope, one of the benefits of Covid is we got rid of the pulpit, right.

00:49:39:19 - 00:49:56:16
Unknown
And we learned how to zoom in. A lot of the traditional institutional stuff does not work on TV. Right. And and it's about getting back to relationships. And so we sit in a circle and we're looking at each other. We're not looking at the back of somebody's head. You're not looking at me standing up saying, you're wrong. Do this.

00:49:56:16 - 00:50:20:05
Unknown
Do that by right. It's that and the architectural elements that we wove into church in a circle, and a real brief overview that we started with some singing and hymns and prayers. I'll do a little scripture from reading. I'll say a few words, and then we hope we have a.

00:50:20:07 - 00:50:38:04
Unknown
A light, the people whole, and they pass it around and they get I ask a question and everybody gets to answer the question if they don't have to, if they don't want to. But everybody gets to answer, and I'll tell the interesting story about that. But it goes around in the architectural elements that we built into church in a circle.

00:50:38:04 - 00:51:06:07
Unknown
Here are John chapter 21, the last chapter of John is an add on. Whoever wrote the last chapter wasn't the guy who wrote the first 20. And it's the one where he basically said, I'm the one that Jesus loved. So let's just run with that. Stopped. Not today. And that's the scene where after the crucifixion, the disciples get out of Jerusalem and they go back to fishing, which is a natural human thing.

00:51:06:07 - 00:51:29:10
Unknown
When it hits the fan and it's chaos and your life collapses, you go back to before, to what you used to do, to what you knew, to what you feel comfortable with. And while they're fishing, they'll catch anything. While they're fishing, they realize that's he's standing on the beach, right? And they come ashore and they find they get to the shore, there's a barbecue and fish and bread on the barbecue, and they sit in the circle.

00:51:29:12 - 00:51:51:06
Unknown
And in that moment, in chapter 21, everything that was necessary for the church to exist was right there. There was food, there was fellowship, and there's Jesus just given some directions which are still valid to this day, said, you know what? You cannot go back to fishing. I'm out of here. You got a responsibility to pick up the torch and move it forward.

00:51:51:06 - 00:52:31:15
Unknown
Through time and over the centuries, old white guys added layers and layers and layers and layers and layers and layers in the times we are living in that because of the mass down there, most people may not be witnessing or understanding is this the wind of the spirit? And change is blowing that institution away. And the reality. You know, I talked about this in that John 21 and the founder, there was never an intention of a professional clergy, right.

00:52:31:17 - 00:52:51:12
Unknown
There was an intention that you've got the power, you've got the spirit, you got to live it. You got to share it. You got to live what you believe. And face whatever it is you got to face. So the architectural elements for church and cigar John 21, the Shabbat dinner, which if you're familiar, the Shabbat dinner is the Friday night dinner.

00:52:53:01 - 00:53:13:12
Unknown
Around the table that started about 2000 years ago. Jesus would have been very familiar with the Shabbat dinner. It's sitting around the table, and it's hymns and singing were added in the, in the, in the Middle Ages, but originally it was just sit, break bread, maybe read some scripture and let's just talk and share good news, bad news.

00:53:13:14 - 00:53:44:04
Unknown
And the Shabbat dinner is what kept Judaism alive for centuries and centuries. After the destruction of the temple by the Roman Empire. So John 21 Shabbat dinner and the third one that were borrowed, an architectural worship element they were borrowing from is the healing circle from the First Nations. Whitey showed up as oh they're having a, they're having a talking circle but they missed was only one person was talking 20 people were listening.

00:53:44:06 - 00:54:10:12
Unknown
It's not a talking circle, it's a listening circle. And when you hold the feather you get to talk. And nobody breaks in or comments or whatever. It's in at the end of it. And we do this at the end. Each person gets to speak at the end of this say, I have spoken and the people say, we have listened or we have heard, and it goes to the next person.

00:54:10:20 - 00:54:31:17
Unknown
So and the interesting, the interesting little piece. So what I got was a USB rechargeable lamp, the so when I don't have it here, but when somebody is talking they're holding this little lamp with, it's on and it's symbolic of the light in, in your hands at this moment while you're talking, you're holding the light in. You're expressing yourself.

00:54:31:17 - 00:54:58:21
Unknown
You're shining the light. And it goes around but really cool. And I said, in the First Nation tradition, what the speaker gets to hold is an eagles feather, right? And that's not our tradition. And we can't just say you can't go and buy an Eagles feather anywhere. B you have to respect that tradition in, in unless you're given an eagles feather.

00:55:00:09 - 00:55:25:13
Unknown
You don't. It. Interesting story from this week. I've been talking and Lisa said, well, she maintains that I kidnaped her to northern Ontario. She was happy living in downtown Toronto and we moved back to to my because my boys were really little and I wanted to stay close, see the divorce. But you got to stay close to your kids as best you can.

00:55:25:15 - 00:56:05:14
Unknown
And she got a job setting up, a daycare on Bear Island, which is, Anishinabe Reservation in Northern Ontario. She got the job based on a community interview, but there was a lot of politics because the existing chief's daughter wanted the job. Cowboy. And, you know, eventually, when she finished your contract, she left. But when she left, Holly Karana, who was the previous chief, the youngest chief engineer to chip away chief ever, the first female chief ever on a First Nation.

00:56:05:14 - 00:56:30:03
Unknown
Holly took her aside and just said, I want to thank you very much for all you have done, for the way you have brought to this spite of the darkness. And she presented Lisa with an eagle feather. Beautiful, great. You we forgot. About 20 years later, Saint Davids has an eagle feather. We're not going to use it. We're going to respect.

00:56:30:03 - 00:56:58:23
Unknown
But the gift from 20 years ago of an eagles feather is pertinent today because it's a it's a sign of a blessing. Right. And it's an affirmation that we're on the right path. And so we're we stop using the sanctuary for the summer because the basement's air conditioned. And every Sunday we do church in a circle. Nice and and in all these little struggling churches.

00:56:58:23 - 00:57:02:06
Unknown
Are you.

00:57:02:08 - 00:57:11:18
Unknown
In May, in June of this year, for the first time in years, we finish the month in the black.

00:57:11:20 - 00:57:35:16
Unknown
In terms of the offering, we're not making millions, but we're floating the boat. That's a it's a huge thing. I mean, I know you were struggling when we talked. Last. I mean, you know, Saint David's, which is, it's kind of nice because your church is a great metaphor for what's happening on a larger scale.

00:57:35:18 - 00:58:04:06
Unknown
And, and, how's your time? I can we I'm gonna go into another hour. Yeah. All right, we're going to we're going to end this podcast where it's at, you know, you get I get, drew and myself talking and, and, but we're going to continue with, part two here around the campfire and, stay tuned for that when it comes down the pike.

00:58:04:08 - 00:58:10:15
Unknown
And it's always great to have you with us. You are on strung out.

00:58:10:15 - 00:58:28:08
Unknown
Thank you for listening. For more information about this show or a transcript, visit Martin mccormack.com while there. Sign up for our newsletter. See you next time on Strung Out.

00:58:28:10 - 00:58:41:05
Unknown
It's so strong. Spain, we feel, makes no sense at all. The swan song wasn't part of the deal, was no good. All giving no choice. Giving us a.