#147 | Reasoning with Mark Burnett: The Journey to an Ambidextrous Project Manager

Mark Burnett, also known as "Reasoning with Mark," shares his fascinating journey from growing up in Kingston, Jamaica to becoming an influential project manager and consultant. Discover how a life-altering accident led him to create the concept of the ambidextrous project manager, blending creativity, emotional intelligence, and adaptability. Through engaging stories and poignant insights, Mark emphasizes the power of conversation and introspection in empowering teams and achieving project success.

Explore the intricacies of managing cross-border projects in the Caribbean, with a special focus on the cultural and logistical differences between Jamaica and the Cayman Islands. Mark delves into the importance of cultural sensitivity, stakeholder engagement, and respecting local customs for successful project management. His experiences in the telecommunications industry, coupled with his role as a mentor at the Richard Branson Centre of Entrepreneurship, offer valuable lessons on integrating project management into business strategies and fostering entrepreneurial growth.

Finally, Mark discusses his work with PMO Global Alliance and PMI, highlighting the benefits of community involvement in driving innovation and personal development. Connect with Mark through his LinkedIn profile and subscribe to his Ambidextrous Mindset newsletter for more insights. This episode is a deep dive into the value of effective communication, resilience, and the human touch in project management.

In this episode we cover: 

00:01 Reasoning With Mark

11:54 Journey to Ambidextrous Project Manager

19:08 Embracing Resilience in Project Management

35:01 Navigating Cross-Island Project Challenges

45:32 Navigating Project Management Opportunities

1:03:36 Connecting Through Ambidextrous Mindset

and more

To connect with Mark: 

https://econo-projectex.business.site/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mrkburnett/ 

https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/the-ambidextrous-mindset%25C2%25A9-6953156

Transcript

Empowering Project Success With Mark

Fatimah Abbouchi 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas, the podcast hosted by Fatima Rabouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm Fatima, ceo at Agile Management Office, mental Health Ambassador and your host. On today's podcast we have Mark Burnett. Mark Burnett also referred to as Reasoning with Mark, which we'll get into in just a moment. A son of the Caribbean, he is overly obsessed with his mission to empower clients via an introspective climate that allows their teams to become the most powerful versions of themselves. Hailing from Jamaica, he believes that projects should be given the proper respect through training, prioritization and standardization, all contributing to successful delivery. He's the founder, trainer and consultant at Ocono Project X, a firm that helps professionals improve their project success and takes businesses of all industries and sizes from a point of chaos, avoiding the painful exercise of delivering their project goals with confidence. So please join me in welcoming Mark to the show. Mark, welcome to the show.

Mark Burnett 1:13

Thank you so much, Fatima, for having me. I've been looking forward to being on your platform for some time now.

Fatimah Abbouchi 1:22

I know it's been a while that we've been going back and forth, but we're finally here, so let's make the most of the time we have together. I'm going to get straight into starting off with probably the most common question you get. I mentioned in your bio to everyone listening, that alongside your name you have this trademark statement, reasoning with mark. What is that? Tell us a little bit more about where that came from and what it means.

Mark Burnett 1:48

Okay. So Reasoning with Mark is I would say it's like a nickname, a moniker, if you will that I got you know from doing projects across the Caribbean region. So a lot of persons don't know that my style, fatima, is conversation. So I'm very big on conversation, you know, and so I just have this personality, you know, that connects with people. You know, just stimulate someone on a day Maybe they're feeling down and I didn't even know that they are feeling down, but through conversation I am able to get them in a different mood, you know, just empower them in any kind of way that I can, unconsciously, you know.

Mark Burnett 2:40

So I really got the name from my peers and my coworkers and like a lot of persons who know me across the region. So they just say you're the reasoner, and then after that, just the community of people were just saying OK, we think you should have some kind of platform that says Reason with Mark, think you should have some kind of platform that says Reason with Mark. And so what it really is is that I'm known as a reasoner, but the platform that I have is called Reason with Mark. So, like the newsletter, like whatever talks I do, you know, like podcasts to come, the platform is Reason with Mark, you know, but it's really the reasoner. They call me, but they just say, hey, we think that whatever platform that you create, whatever you're doing, whatever impact or mark that you're making, it's called Reason with Mark.

Fatimah Abbouchi 3:49

And so that's how I got that, monica. Well, it's a good skill to have as a project management professional, because being able to reason with you know stakeholders and sponsors and all of these different characters in projects, I think goes a long way. So the fact that you've picked up on that early is really positive, and what's even better about it is that it's not something that you identify for yourself, but it's your customers, your stakeholders, that identified it for you. So that's amazing. So well done on that. So tell me I can obviously I've shared that you, you know from jamaica tell me about you. Uh, where you started? How did you get into project manage? Give us a little bit more detail about you and who you are.

Mark Burnett 4:33

Yeah, so I was born and raised in Kingston, jamaica, you know, yeah, and you know the journey primary school, and then from primary school you pass this regional exam and then I moved on to high we call it high school secondary school and then from there I went to the University of the West Indies. So the University of the West Indies is a premier university here in the West Indies, the Commonwealth, and it's also in the top 1.5% globally as well. So, yeah, went to the university globally as well. So, yeah, went to the university.

Mark Burnett 5:04

So, you know, just growing up, you know, fatima, most of us wanted to become like engineers, doctors, lawyers, you know, and so for me, I wanted to become an engineer, you know, so, yeah, so my journey was charted like that. I did the physics and the technical subjects, I went to the university and I did electronics, engineering and physics. So that's how I started. So when I left university, I started out in the telecommunication, the mobile space, because there was a big boom in the Caribbean, because you know we're like boom in the Caribbean, because you know we're like a smaller states nation, you know.

Mark Burnett 5:49

So, there was a big boom here where we were moving into the digital I would say digital transformation, moving to the 3G, the 4G, lte, you know, because before that we weren't able to use our phone like YouTube and all streaming of data and all those things. So it was a boom in the telecommunications space. So I started out with a major telecommunication vendor here. So I started out, I just I grew through the ranks, you know, because of one the reasoning with Mark, that skill, just the conversation. So then I started to travel from Jamaica to other territories. Realize that, hey, reasoning with mark, you're actually a project manager, because I've been. Just, you know, my job description was a project engineer, but I was doing leadership, I had leadership responsibilities all over the place and the contract, uh, obligations, weren't changing you know, and so, yeah, I say, oh, wow, you have now become an accidental project manager, but you know, still being in this project engineering role and stuff, you know.

Mark Burnett 7:14

So, anyhow, I spent some time there. And then fast forward a couple of years after that. I was working for this other major player in the telecommunications space and I was in a serious accident and I was told all the medical facilities here in Jamaica they told me there was nothing they could have possibly done to save my arm. They could have possibly done to save my arm and it was in that moment I realized that. I realized the power of resilience and this is one of the top skills that all project managers or project management professionals, even the PMO. This is a skill that you should have because you could be the most qualified or competent person. If you're not resilient, I mean this era is not for you. Yeah, you have to keep knocking, yeah, yeah, you have to have that mindset, you know.

Mark Burnett 8:16

So, yeah, I defied what they were saying and then they said, ok, let's transfer you to this final destination that's in Kingston and let's see what they can do for you. And then when they transferred me there, I could vividly remember, like Because I was there for 24 hours and there were impurities in the arm like the dirt, the stones, the small stones, and it wasn't cleaned, you know. And so I was like two minutes away from the arm being confirmed to be amputated because the wound wasn't clean. And so when I went there to that, when I went to the facility, they told me, wow, let's see what we can do. And they started to wash the wound and then they had to pin it, and I think they required maybe like three pins to pin the harm in place, because it was just skin holding the harm. Sorry if I'm too graphic.

Fatimah Abbouchi 9:20

No no.

Mark Burnett 9:21

Yes, yeah, and I think only one pin was there at the facility, and this is now the birth of the ambidextrous thinking, because I don't know how the doctors were able to use experimentation and creativity with that one pin to pin that arm in place. And here we are today. I've written a guide, the Ambidextrous Project Manager, and I've been sharing my story and my projects have been successful, I would say, because of my story. I put my story into the people for inspiration and into the project for the old. You know, and yeah, that's that has been, I would say, my journey. And then, while I was in there, while I was there, I was there for six months, six months, I learned again.

Mark Burnett 10:24

I developed this concept of ambidextrous project manager. Where I look at life, it's agile. You could say it's agile, it's adaptive, but it's just whatever you're doing or whatever situation that you're in, or complexity. Complexity, it's about an open mindset that will allow you to find the tools or the people, or the emotional intelligence, the empathy required to get the job done wow, that's a I'm a really um, a really a story, almost like a sad story, but really positive in what came out of it.

Fatimah Abbouchi 11:04

Obviously, obviously you're well and you got through that and, as you said, resilience has played a key part. You also talked about being adaptive not only yourself in that time not giving up, but also the doctors in getting creative, which again, project management's all about creativity but then also looking for solutions, probably outside the black and white, where you can. You know they probably could have just given up in the first place that you were versus. Then, when you get to the second location, they could have just given up by saying it's only possible with three. But if they had a fixed mindset maybe they would have thought like that. So I was going to ask you about that. So I'm glad you brought it up because I think it's an important story and it does definitely show resilience and it probably makes you now stronger for it, because that sort of experience probably changes you and thank you for sharing. I'm sure people would appreciate that.

Mark Burnett 11:56

Yes, definitely. And you know, even these days when I'm like working with teams and they would ask me about resilience, and so I'm just so humbled, you know, and I'm so fortunate to have been in this situation while I was in the situation, I wasn't thinking like this, you know. You know I was, you know, nervous. You know I was eager. You know I didn't know what the outcome would have. You know, nervous. You know I was eager. You know I didn't know what the outcome would have been. You know.

Mark Burnett 12:43

But just looking back, you know, I'm just so humbled and I'm so grateful because one of the things I could say to the community is that I became an accidental project manager, you know, in the corporate space. You know, when I started out, you know, just being thrown into these small projects. And then on that other end, which is life, you know, because everything in life is a project, most things, you know, and you will realize that you will be thrown into some projects to solve some problems, whether it's a project or you're working in a PMO and it has nothing to do with the tools and techniques for some time Before you get there.

Mark Burnett 13:10

It's about the customer, it's about the stakeholder, it's about the mindset, you know, and you know we can call it whatever. Agility, you know, adaptability, you know whatever the framework is and, yeah, I have learned to like, substantiate that and induce that into, I would say, the people and the changes in the time. You know we're looking at AI, the disruption, you know.

Fatimah Abbouchi 13:42

And so then, thinking about you named a lot of different um attributes and skill sets that are really good for projects and PMO professionals. Thinking about an aspiring project manager, what would you say is the first thing they should learn? Methodology is a site, because most pet project management, what you know students or students who want to be usually come and say, hey, fatima, what course should I do, what methodology should I study? And it's like that's like not even the first thing to consider. So what would you say is the first thing an aspiring project manager should learn, regardless of where they get that experience and skill?

Embracing Uncomfortable Situations for Growth

Mark Burnett 14:20

Yeah, I would say Fatima, I mean I want to give credit because there are a lot of influencers in the space project management experts who are doing a wonderful job and, you know, sharing their knowledge and so forth, and so I mean for me I just want to add to that so it's not a one size fits all. There is a big knowledge base there. But from my personal experience, as I said, life, you know, accidental project manager life and in the corporate space I would say the first thing is to develop the open mind, because if your mind is not open to something, then it's difficult to do anything. So you could be qualified with, say, for example, a PMP, but if your mind is not open to get into different domains or to learn from different people or to adapt to different culture, then you will have a lot of challenges. So the first thing I would say is an open mindset and how you develop that open mindset. It's not easy. It's just to put yourself in situations that will make you uncomfortable.

Fatimah Abbouchi 15:44

Yes, yes.

Mark Burnett 15:46

Yep, put yourself in conversations that will make you uncomfortable. It's difficult, you know. Someone might listen and say, oh, what mark is saying that it's so easier, it's so cliche, but it's the truth. You know, just put yourself into difficult spots and then you will see.

Fatimah Abbouchi 16:06

Even if you click on your life, you will see that so I I I can think of one where I've personally done that. Um, that I think might be relevant, but is there something that you can share, that you what's your most uncomfortable situation that you can share with aspiring pms?

Mark Burnett 16:24

okay, um, I'm going back to being in the hospital, right? So I was working for some time, you know, a little bit for a short time. Then the accident happened. I was in the hospital, but, you know, just going through the trials and tribulation and just observing how the people were doing things, you know, even the doctor that said we cannot do anything about it, and he's a top expert. So I'm not saying he doesn't know what he's doing, he knows what he's doing because he's a top expert. But I was just observing his behavior.

Mark Burnett 17:13

That's also an attribute of a project manager, you know. There, sometimes there is no wrong or right, you know, it's just a problem just listen and observe, you know. So I was listening and I was observing, I, I was learning, you know, and then one of the things that I realized is that at this time I went on a spiritual journey as well. So every morning, when the doctors came to visit, I was always in a positive spirit and I realized that my spirit was resonating with the doctors, and so they were feeding off my energy, you know, and because they were feeding off my energy, the impossible became possible and they found creative ways how to save the arm. You know, I'm telling you again and this was when I I was learning the the, the true soft skills of project management. I would say so, in the book the ambidextrous project management manager, I spoke about a little about embracing your dualities, because, yes, project management is about leading, but also I told you about giving off a positive energy because of that spiritual vibration that I was on.

Mark Burnett 18:39

And so even in your project, sometimes as a leader, things might be happening. But when you I mean things something is happening to everyone. But even in the space of maybe 15 minutes, just being positive as a leader, and they may see a smile on your face. Or you come into the office, you know, with some fruits and you hand someone a banana or an apple or something, it can change something in the project, you know. And so when it changes something, it opens doors for great results. And so in that situation, that positive energy opens doors for a lot of positive results in that project, and it's because of the open mindset project.

Fatimah Abbouchi 19:32

It's because of the open minds, it's it's yeah, it's a really good um summary to give, because you're right that positive energy and negative as well people feed off it. So, um, if you weren't so, I guess I mean in the situation that you described to be positive, people would think you're crazy. But to be positive, it like you that brushed off on those around you where, even though experts can be amazing at what they do because they're experts, they've got there for a reason. They can be wrong, and sometimes we're wrong as project management and PMO professionals as well. Like all the time we can be wrong, and sometimes it takes someone to just put something out there that makes you think, hang on a minute, there's got to be another way, and really that demonstrates what happened there. So I think you're right.

Fatimah Abbouchi 20:16

I would go back to what you said earlier put yourself in uncomfortable situations and force yourself to be in a situation that you would never normally be in. I'll give an example that I think might be relevant to a few and this might be interesting for you as well. You might not know this, but I had a fear of flying most of my life and I couldn't imagine getting on a plane going a few hours, let alone where we are in Australia, to get to the other side of the world. It's so so far so to force that I created an opportunity with the Danish University to go and speak in one of their um cohorts. Now, that was an opportunity I committed to before even acknowledging I had to figure out how to get over the fear of flying.

Navigating Caribbean Project Challenges

Fatimah Abbouchi 21:00

So that uncomfortable situation with your career um, you know, passionate about your career and your career growth forced me in that situation. So I just thought that was relevant because it's such a tangible one. A lot of people have fear of flying and I think your one is a really good example of pushing the boundaries and sometimes challenging. And as PMs we have to challenge subject matter experts and we have to challenge those in power and sponsors to say sometimes they might not have all the answers. So I think, yeah, I think it's a really good example of that. I don't know if you wanted to add any more yeah, and yeah, that's about it.

Mark Burnett 21:40

And there are just so many, um, other stories. Um, where that positive energy? Because generally, when the doctors are planning for surgery, they don't invite the patient. And so I was invited into those rooms and then I realized that the doctors they have a PMO, even without realizing it. Okay, explain that, isn't it okay, explain that. Yeah, so, for example, for the plastic surgery, right, um, they would know which doctor. I mean, there was one for orthopedic and then there was one for the, the plastic surgery right on the skin graft, and all of that, right. So, like, sometimes, when I meet with the doctor for orthopedics, he would be telling me, like okay, at this time you're supposed to meet, for example, fatima and she's in charge of the skin graft. She's now in Brazil, she will be back at a certain time, you know.

Mark Burnett 22:48

So, in terms of the schedule and the program, it seems to me that they have some kind of center of excellence inside the hospital, that the knowledge is shared, and so they work in unison. It's like there is a, there's like a service provider, like a center of innovation inside that. The doctor for the orthopedics systems that they use, you know what is required, you know the medication that is required, where you can get that and in terms of cost, they were able, because at that time I mean I was I mean things happen, you know and I had to add financial constraints too, because it's no point in time they were ever like insecure or they weren't optimistic about a positive result. They had ideas after ideas. I mean benefits realization. They were able to even do some benefits realization too, because at one point in time I got this dream job while I was inside the hospital, because I lost my job while I was there and the job came to me like three times while I was inside the hospital and then, when they came back to me the fourth time, there was no way I could have said no, because I wanted the money, you know, and I needed to get back into the industry to do other matters, because I have obligations and responsibilities, and they were able to guide me and help me and worked with the company to the HR department, you know to get me up to a level to go back.

Mark Burnett 25:19

So when I started that new job, I started that new job with a fiberglass cast on my arm and it was because of the, the PMO. They knew that it is better to go with the fiberglass cast because I would be working the job and some shifting and whatever, and maybe it would take some time, maybe I would be traveling or something like this and it would take some time, so that would be the best choice for me at the time. You know, in terms of the letters, the structure of the letter to send to the company. You know assuring them that I would be in a good condition and stuff like this you know. So they had a PMO, even without knowing it.

Fatimah Abbouchi 26:00

Yeah, yeah, and it goes back to what you said earlier like this is where although we might not use the labels of project manager and project management and PMO and all of that stuff the similarities of some of these skills and capabilities within these operational teams, if you like, many of them, most of us. I don't think there's a person out in the world that doesn't do projects, whether it's planning a birthday party or getting married or filling out a passport application, you know, all these little things are effectively projects, so this is a really good example. I think that again goes back to we're all doing projects. I wanted to talk about your experience across the 19 different caribbean islands. You've done work across all of them and I'm interested to know what different perspectives or focus points or what is the similarities across the different, like you know, some more maturity, lower maturity, like is any insights you can share?

Mark Burnett 27:13

Yes, yes, yes, yes. And this is a great question, fatima. So the Caribbean, I would say it's like a melting pot, right? So I give you an example. So you have Jamaica right. The Cayman Islands is like 45 minutes away from Jamaica and we need a visa to go to the Cayman Islands. Jamaica is an independent state, you know, but the Cayman Islands is still under the British. In Jamaica we spend our own Jamaican dollars, but in the Cayman Islands it's the Cayman dollar which values more than the US dollar.

Fatimah Abbouchi 27:59

Okay.

Mark Burnett 28:02

And in Jamaica you have 3 million people. In the Cayman Islands maybe you have like 60,000, and it's just one flat land In Jamaica. It takes 45 minutes from one end of Jamaica to the other end of the country.

Mark Burnett 28:17

Oh, wow if we have a regional project and say there's a project in the Cayman Islands, the first challenge is the laws of the land, because even though Cayman Islands is like four to five minutes away, that logistics to get to the Cayman Island to do the job, you know it's totally different. Their laws, you know, everything is just different. Their laws, everything is just different. Their culture, everything is different. So, as I said before, again it goes back to the reasoning, with Mark and being called a reasoner, because I realized that this is the way to go.

Mark Burnett 29:10

It doesn't matter how many tools you have, how many methodologies you have, if you're not able to get the buy-in from the people, or the stakeholders or the clients, then you will get nothing done. That's when I realized that I had to integrate the ambidextrous DNA inside of everything. So say, for example, you want to be structured but at the same time you need to be flexible. How are you going to balance that? So there has to be a little finesse, you understand give a little here and a little over here to make it work, you know, and so this is how it works.

Mark Burnett 29:50

So the island, so you have the french. Like martinique is a french territory, it's the caribbean, but it falls under the the.

Mark Burnett 29:58

It's still a european country. The laws there, the cayman island you have the abc islands, which is the dutch. Their laws fall under than the dutch, but it's a caribbean island, pretty beaches, you hear the music, you know. So it's difficult. So being here, you know, it, just gives you that gratitude, you know, and so I think this also helps me on the journey and even to be here today. Fatima, you're in Australia. How did we get to be here? It's because of all of this that was happening and leading up to this.

Fatimah Abbouchi 30:37

Yeah, 100%. I like that example. You know people often misunderstand the complexity of cross-border, cross-region, you know, cross-island complexities. Working in a global setting, whether that's global in terms of across the 19 islands and all of them having different taxes, different laws, different financials, different, all that sort of stuff is so, so, so challenging, because not only do you have to figure out depending on whether you're running a project across all of them or you're just doing different projects that are unrelated, but let's say you're doing a project or program to benefit the whole Caribbean and you're involving all these different areas, similar to when I was doing something in Asia Pacific it's to benefit a lot of Asia Pacific countries, but they're all different, they all have their own maturity and complexity.

Fatimah Abbouchi 31:33

So I think understanding the nuances within those areas is so important and that's why, like the listening and understanding and then to your point around the ambidextrous, you know, seeing both sides is so important. Because imagine you went into the Cayman Islands and said to them all all right, we're going to do things like this, we're going to do, we're going to use this and we're going to you just disregard all the laws, like they'll probably tell you to get stuffed. So, um, people, I think, who have that skill set are so much better for it than I think. Those of us that you know spend all our time very insulated in one place for too long. I personally find it more valuable.

Mark Burnett 32:15

Yes, yes, yeah and yeah. So these islands, this is, and on top of that, our culture here is a little bit more relaxed.

Fatimah Abbouchi 32:25

Mm-hmm, I would imagine that.

Mark Burnett 32:29

So, just for example, the PM Buck will never tell you how to manage or to lead people in a relaxed culture. How do you do that? So give you an example. If you go into a country, say say Martini, that has a lot of holidays, you realize that sometimes you will have to beforehand like you're making the project plan or you're having some brainstorming session you have to mention a couple of their key holidays to show that you appreciate. First, yes, then you, you listen, you, you know, you, you hear what they have to say, you tell them oh, you know this is a challenging milestone, but I know, you know and you listen. And just to see what, what they will say, and you will be surprised. A lot of times they will come on board even though that holiday is so special to them because that appreciation of their culture, yes, 100%.

Fatimah Abbouchi 33:39

It's the respect for the cultural differences. Just like when we're visiting for a holiday, going to any particular country, you need to understand the basics of their laws and their visa requirements, and all it's the same with projects. Exactly the same with projects. I want to talk about community. So I know that you are prolific in your community involvement, not only locally in Jamaica, but I mean globally. I mean you have your fingers in the PMO Leader, which I, you know, am a partner in with Joe from the US. You have been heavily involved in PMO Global Alliance, which has now been acquired by PMI. You're heavily now involved in the PMI world. You're doing all of this, plus you're doing all the other stuff that you're doing as part of your day job. So I want to know how are you staying organized to be involved in all of these different community and what, what are the things that you get from being part of so many communities?

Mark Burnett 34:43

Okay. So again the first thing I am also grateful to have reached a certain place in my self-actualization. I think self-actualization is very important because it gets you a little bit closer to your inner self. What are you about? Can you be like everybody else, or can you be like you? I mean, how can you improve? You know the different ways, how you could improve. You know how you prioritize those things you know. So, for example, in terms of professional development, some persons are comfortable in the classroom, while some persons are comfortable in the community. You understand, because I am a reasoner. So I meet people, I learn from people, people learn from me. We build connections for a lifetime, which is very, very important.

Fatimah Abbouchi 35:43

Yes.

Mark Burnett 35:43

You know, and that's why I'm here again. I'm in Australia today, you know, and I'm in Jamaica, you know. So that's that I would say. The first thing is just for me, I was just fortunate enough to get a little bit closer to myself because my, because of my experiences, you know, and that ambidextrous mindset again looking at life from two, ambidextrous mindset again looking at life from two. So yes, I am in jamaica but it doesn't mean that I have to always think like a jamaican.

Mark Burnett 36:17

Yes, yep, you know, um, so, so, so that, and so because I understand my voice and because I understand, so it is easy to interact and it's easy to share the message. So say, for example, if I have to write a newsletter about something, I know that I'm about theidexterity, the mindset you know. So I watch a football game, the Copa America. I wrote a newsletter. I'll give you an example. I wrote a newsletter about the Copa America and the UEFA that I think Spain won with the 16-year-old Yami Gamal and Messi again, and the guysi was taking off the field and this time his team carried him.

Mark Burnett 37:09

So I wrote about the ambidextrous leadership. This was so. This was easy for me because that's me, that's, that's me. You know that, that's really me. So to write this, it was easy for me because that's me. I'm a sports fanaticatic. I learned so much about sports as well, and even some of the other opportunities I would say that comes up. It's because of the network and you meet people and because of your voice, you have conversations and the opportunities they will present themselves and you collaborate, and so because you're collaborating with people, it makes everything easy. Because you're not, it looks like you're doing everything by yourself, but that's not the case. You're not really doing everything by yourself.

PMO Certification and Collaborative Opportunities

Fatimah Abbouchi 38:02

And so one other example I wanted to bring up where you've been involved again appears in a volunteering capacity is your project mentor position in the Richard Branson Centre of Entrepreneurship. How did you find that opportunity? Because you're finding these opportunities, but I'm assuming because you're going out and seeking them. They're not just landing in your lap. How can someone listening, who wants to be more involved in these sorts of things find opportunities, and how did you come across that one?

Mark Burnett 38:34

Okay, this one. How did I come across this one? Because this one was from, I believe, the COVID. So, yeah, so I believe for the Branson. I got an email because of the however, I influence someone on the LinkedIn, you know, and the newsletter I got an email and so, when I got the email, you know, the next move is to read and to see what this is about and how you can impact.

Mark Burnett 39:07

So, again, as I said, because I am close, because I know my voice and know what is it that I'm about, once I read I will know if I can make an impact or not, you know, and then the conversation starts and that's how I really got involved, because, for that, the Brunson Center of Entrepreneurship is about entrepreneurs, budding entrepreneurs, and so most economies. They are driven by entrepreneurs.

Fatimah Abbouchi 39:42

Yeah, yep, 100 percent.

Mark Burnett 39:45

You. So if they are driven by entrepreneurs, what I've observed is that you will hear a lot of times entrepreneurs talking about pivoting or scaling and sometimes, when you have further conversation, you will see that they're talking about the business plan and they are talking about the business models, but there's no integration of the project, pmo, project management piece to the puzzle to get the outcomes that they want. Yes, to connect that to that strategy, you know, yes, and so I always laugh and say, okay, let me see what is going to happen. Now you hear pivot, we pivot, we need to scale, we need to scale. But when it comes down to that linchpin, that piece, it is missing. And so I say, okay, I think I could add some value here, not as a general business manager or a business mentor or whatever, but I am about project management, you know.

Mark Burnett 40:49

So, yeah, I've seen from the Branson Center of Entrepreneurship. I've seen opportunities where we're changing the mindset of entrepreneurs, like getting them trained, for example, in like, say, agile courses, you know, or you know coaching, project management coaching, but in the sense of being on the job and seeing what they're doing, you know, and helping them with project management. You know, that kind of opportunity arise because of that kind of involvement. So if you're not involved and you're not exposed, sometimes, how do you expect persons in the community who are unaware to know about the impact? You know, and so this is one of the benefits of being involved as well, because there are a lot of persons who they don't know where to go. They don't even know that, okay, you have PMI or you have the, you know. So it's persons like us, like change agents, who will get the message out there. And these small wins. Well, I mean some persons will say there are big wins, but these small wins are helping us all within the community.

Fatimah Abbouchi 42:02

A hundred percent and, like you said, you know, jamaica, as an example, is not a very big population for the country. And then by having those relationships that you do with communities across the world, you know PMO Global Alliance now is, you know, us-based, and then you've got obviously, pmo Leader and that's Global and all these different communities. I think you're right, you're bringing in the insights. So then you're not being insular and only focusing on know, like the jamaican way of doing project management. You're actually getting insights and picking what works and again going back to that ambidextrous and thinking about things that are not just black and white. So I think that's really great and, um, I think a lot of people could take um insight from looking at your background, the amount of work that you do in the community and, mind you, I would say, a lot of these roles at least I know for the PMO leader it's all voluntary. So I think giving back is something that's a big part of what you do and I just want to commend you for that.

Fatimah Abbouchi 42:58

I just want to circle back to PMI and PMO Global Alliance. So I had a sneaky look at your profile and I noticed that you were part of the pilot testing group for the new PMO certification. My understanding correct me if I'm wrong is the PMO Global Alliance's PMO CP, which is the certified practitioner, has now obviously been adopted into PMI and is being refreshed. Is that correct? First of all, okay, amazing. Can you tell us a little bit more?

Mark Burnett 43:30

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. At the moment I I might not be at liberty to to to say um too much, you know, as you know, I mean it's a pilot and so forth, but um, yes, um, definitely, of course. Um, that's where it is going. And then, based on my conversation with persons from the community as well, and what they have in mind, you know they are looking forward to some kind of you know, for example, the PMP you have, like a PMBOK or something like this. They are looking forward to some kind of guide. You know, based on what are the expectations to run a successful PMO? And so, in a sense that partnership and collaboration, you're expecting something along that line as well. You know that it will be about bringing benefits to them.

Mark Burnett 44:38

In that sense of, you know, how do you deliver a successful PMO post-COVID, or how do you deliver a successful PMO in this day and age? You know, and as we've said before so far, we think it's something customer-centric, you know. I mean it's about perception of value, it's about the return on investment. You know it's about the benefits realization, it's about stakeholder orientation. You know that kind of thing. So, no one size fits all. Or, you know, bringing in something pre-established, into an organization, without listening to the key decision makers and connecting what you're doing with strategy. You know that kind of thing, you know, so yeah, but I may not right now be at liberty to say you know too much, of course.

Mark Burnett 45:30

Maybe, another time, you know.

Fatimah Abbouchi 45:31

Yeah.

Mark Burnett 45:32

I mean yeah, yeah, yeah.

Resilience and Embracing Dualities in Projects

Fatimah Abbouchi 45:34

No, that sounds good. I'm hoping Americo is going to be on the show at some point. He and I have been tag teaming back and forth for a while, so hopefully when it's launched formally or released we'll hear a little bit more about it. So I'm staying tuned, but it's great to see again you being participating in that is, I think, of really good value. I wanted to just shine a light on something we don't talk about enough, and that is challenges or failures in projects. We talk a lot today about all the positives and all the wins and all the amazing things, but you know, I think it's fair to say we have a lot of failures in projects, either projects we failed in or projects we've seen failed. Can you share an example of either a project you've seen fail whether it's involved you or not that you can share some lessons from?

Mark Burnett 46:27

Yeah, I believe this is a thought-provoking question, fatima. I believe, in all my projects we've failed, you know, maybe the failures are not visible to the people who can take action against a particular team member or the teams, you know, but we've all failed, you know. But I believe how you fail fast or how you bounce back from a failure will determine the character of a team member or the team and what kind of results we get. So I will let me see, I will give you an example of a project. So can this? Okay? So this same situation in the hospital, right?

Mark Burnett 47:29

So I went to Curacao, I was working on a project in Curacao and I was on site with a client.

Mark Burnett 47:43

We were on the same page, we were delivering according to our agreements and so forth, but then the project went into a different direction. And it went into a different direction not because of the client, but it went into a different direction because of the key stakeholders on our end. So there were things internally that were politically affiliated, which is above my pay grade, you know, and I was just doing the project out of passion, you know, just to deliver on the customer premise, you know, and based on what I thought we wanted to do and based on what I taught we wanted to do, you know, I came from one department but there was a different PMO department, you know. So the department that I was from was more of like a service delivery department, and then you had the PMO. But the service delivery department and the PMO politically they weren't aligned on some matters and so we started to have some communication issues and so what happened? I became the scapegoat and got removed from the project and was blamed and was shamed and was relocated.

Mark Burnett 49:10

It's terrible, and so this is how complexity works as well, Fatima. You know, before you had this concept, VUCA, volatile and certain complex, ambiguous right.

Mark Burnett 49:27

And then you would probably use that to determine if a project is complex. You know, but sometimes many things can determine how a project becomes complex. The project could be going very good and because of lack of communication above, and it becomes complex. And until that is resolved, maybe for you as a project manager it's above your peer grade, but until that is resolved, then the project will always be complex. So then again, as I said, it's about you know listening and having conversations and having that open mindset, because when you have that open mindset it makes you it's easier for you to bounce back and not dwell in the past. And so from that experience, I was shattered, my ego was shattered, a lot of things was was was shattered, but because of the open mindset it allowed me to have the right conversations with the right people, have some harsh conversations too. I then I believed in myself. With that open mindset I was relocated and then I never had an issue like that before after that it's um, it's a it's um.

Fatimah Abbouchi 50:49

unfortunate that you had to go through that and it is unfortunate that it's very common that those sorts of things happen, particularly in large corporates, where they often got to find that scapegoat. And truthfully, as a consultant, I'm sure you probably can agree as a consultant. Usually the consultants are brought in so that the internal staff have got someone to blame when things don't go well, even if it's you know they're steering the ship, so to speak. So we probably feel that and see that. But it's really good that you are building, and have built since then, that resilience muscle so that you can overcome these challenges.

Fatimah Abbouchi 51:24

And I think it's a good story to share for those that are aspiring that you know we will get knocked down, we will get, you know, kicked to the ground, we will have our egos hurt. We will sometimes have to reflect and say is it us, have we genuinely contributed to this, to this lesson, this sorry, to this failure, and what lesson can we take? Because sometimes we are partially to blame, but then other times there's absolutely no wrongdoing on our part, but we just get dealt with that. So thanks for sharing. I think that's a good one to share for those listening Now. We're almost out of time today. My last question for you is if there is anything else you'd like to share with our listeners, a call to action, a piece of advice or a question to ponder.

Mark Burnett 52:09

Yes to ponder. Yes, I would definitely say to my audience, my community and all the listeners out there. I know, you know we have a long list of you know skills for project managers to become successful. But to that list I want to highlight and advocate for the power of resilience and the power of also embracing your dualities. And by that I mean embracing your dualities, and by that I mean there are some skills that you use at home that you don't use at work, and you'd be so surprised how, if you integrate some of those skills into what you're doing as, again, embracing dualities, you'd be surprised to see the reaction and the results that you get. You know. So, just don't be afraid to become the reaction and the results that you get. You know. So just don't be afraid to become ambidextrous. You know, just look at things from different.

Mark Burnett 53:16

You know, a lot of times we want structure but at the same time we need to have flexibility. You know, um, you know we need to drive innovation but at the same we have a lot of volatility, you know. So how do we do that? You know. So it's just to develop that kind of aptitude to find that finesse in the middle. You know, and you can only do that through the power of resilience and just embracing your dualities.

Mark Burnett 53:55

So, whatever that is, if you're good at having conversations, I realized that I was very good at having conversations, so I embrace that. You know, maybe there's something you're good at cooking and it does something on the job, maybe persons like to go out with you for lunch and you build relationships through that, you know. So, yeah, that is pretty much something I would share with the community today. Just feel free to embrace your duality and that power of resilience, you know, and resilience, I would say it's a very important skill because, just the same way of everything is a project In life. We all go through challenges and if you're not resilient, you will be left behind.

Fatimah Abbouchi 54:54

Very well said and, on that note, thank you so much, mark, for your time. I look forward to our continued collaborations in all the other things that you're doing, including the PMO Leader. I'll make sure I link to your book in our notes and also for people to connect with you. Where would be the best place? Do you want them to go to a website linkedin? What's your preference?

Mark Burnett 55:16

yes, linkedin, and I also have a newsletter called the ambidextrous mindset, where I share a message about everything. So, for example, this this podcast when it's out, I will have an episode in the ambidextrous mindset summarizing what we discussed.

Fatimah Abbouchi 55:37

Amazing. I'll make sure I share both of those in the show notes as well. Other than that, have a great rest of your day and thanks so much for your time.

Mark Burnett 55:45

Thank you so much, Fatima. Same to you.

Fatimah Abbouchi 55:47

Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone, or. Thank you so much, Fatima. Same to you. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things Agile Ideas. Go to our website, wwwagilemanagementofficecom. I hope you've been able to learn, feel or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your agile idea?