#156 | There’s No ‘I’ in PMO: Team Dynamics and Leadership with Bill Dow

Discover the key to transforming your Project Management Office (PMO) in this insightful episode featuring Bill Dow, an industry authority with decades of experience. In our engaging conversation, Bill unveils actionable strategies to elevate your PMO from merely functioning to flourishing. We dive deep into the critical elements of defining service offerings, crafting effective roadmaps, and maintaining robust relationships between project management and change management.

Bill shares the invaluable “5% rule” for process improvement, guiding listeners on embedding these practices into their teams' performance. We also touch on the dynamics of managing a remote PMO, emphasizing the importance of flexibility and adaptability in today’s workforce.

In this episode, we cover: 

Introduction to Agile Ideas

Finding Help on Bad Days

Meet Bill Dow – The PMO Authority

Overview of Bill's PMO Experience

The Importance of Service Offerings

Building Effective PMO Roadmaps

The 5% Rule for Process Improvement

The Intersection of Project Management & Change Management

Remote Work Dynamics in PMOs

Book your discovery assessment here: https://agilemanagementoffice.com/discovery-assessment/

This podcast is sponsored by Agile Management Office (www.agilemanagementoffice.com) providing high-impact delivery execution in an agile era for scaling businesses. 

Thank you for listening to this podcast. We welcome any feedback. www.agilemanagementoffice.com/contact

Make sure you subscribe to our newsletter to receive access to special events, checklists, and blogs that are not available everywhere. www.agilemanagementoffice.com/subscribe

You can also find us on most social media channels by searching 'Agile Ideas'. 

Follow me, your host, on LinkedIn - go to Fatimah Abbouchi - www.linkedin.com/in/fatimahabbouchi/

Thank you for listening; PLEASE

Transcript

Introduction to Agile Ideas

Speaker 1 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas, the podcast hosted by Fatima Rabouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm Fatima, ceo at AMO, mental Health Ambassador and your host On today's podcast. I'm joined by Bill Dow.

Speaker 1 0:25

Bill is a distinguished authority in project management, recognised by the Project Management Institute for his exceptional contributions to developing and managing PMOs. With a career spanning decades, bill has established himself as a thought leader in the field, combining practical experience with academic expertise. His professional accomplishments include establishing and successfully managing 10 PMOs across four diverse companies, co-authoring multiple comprehensive books on project management and PMO, and being a recognised expert by PMI in the PMO development and management space. His academic contributions include over 20 years of teaching experience at the college level across North America. Bill's unique blend of hands-on experience and theoretical knowledge has made him a sought-after expert in the project management community. His work continues to shape the industry's best practices and inspire the next generation of project management professionals. Please join me in welcoming Bill to the show. Bill, thanks so much for joining me.

Speaker 2 1:26

Thank you, it's great to be here. I really appreciate you having me.

Speaker 1 1:30

Well, I thought after the first time we actually connected, even though we've been in similar circles, that it made sense for us to get on this conversation because of the amount of work and experience you have in and around this PMO world. But before we get into that, you were recently a contributor to the PMO Leader Annual Conference, which we co-host. I'm keen to hear a little bit about. Was there anything in that experience, particularly speaking to people, or after your talk or during your talk, any questions, anything that surprised you? Maybe a new trend, some sort of insight, anything that really sort of stood out for you?

Speaker 2 2:09

Yeah, 100%. So I covered PMO roadmaps. So we went into roadmaps and what was really interesting is I use the service offering concept, so the things that you do for your PMO as the basis to build your roadmaps, and a lot of people in the chat were like I need to re-look at that service offering. I may be, I'm not doing the service offering in the same way, which was fascinating because when you think about PMOs and how different they are and it was really interesting on how people approach their PMOs and their various services and a lot of just people came back and they said I just I don't do service offerings that same way and I thought, oh, that was really fascinating because I've done it that way for years and years, so it was just interesting.

Speaker 1 3:00

And for those that are listening that maybe either are for or against the concept of the service I know here we talk about. We talk a lot about service catalogs and I've had mixed experience and feedback from people around. If you're providing a service catalog, it becomes too rigid, but then, if you're not, people don't know what it is that you provide. So tell us a little bit more about the service offering, what you mean.

Speaker 2 3:22

Yeah, 100%. So when I think about service offerings, and so what I've done is I've done governance service offerings, I've done business analysis service offerings, change management, program and project management as service offerings, and so when you really think about the components of your PMO, I break them into those services and then I staff those services. So then I can say how do I mature those services, how do I, you know, keep moving the dial from a service perspective, and then everyone knows what you're doing in your PMO.

Speaker 1 4:01

And I think that's probably a really clever way of thinking about it, because you're effectively correct me if I'm wrong but without having the resources to support those services, you can't turn them on.

Speaker 2 4:12

That's right. And that's a hiring tool as well, right? So your executive branch may say, hey, we want you to do governance, and so the PMO needs to run governance. Well, I have no one to run governance, so how would I do that if I don't have the bodies to do governance? And so the PMO needs to run governance. Well, I have no one to run governance, so how would I do that if I don't have the bodies to do it? So you can actually use it as a hiring tool.

Speaker 1 4:31

Okay, awesome, that sounds good. And when it comes to you talked about roadmaps. I know you don't know and spend a lot of time in this space what would you say is the top? You know two or three things that you would recommend people look out for when putting their roadmap together for the first time.

Speaker 2 4:47

Yeah. So I think it's really, really important to not overwhelm the PMO and the members of the PMO of all these process improvement projects. So when I say build roadmaps, I do it based on services and then it's a set of process improvement projects for each service. Well, if your PMO is running 40, 50, 60 projects, how do they insert process improvement projects to continue to turn the dial? So you have to be very careful on crawl, walk, run right. You have to be very careful on how many of these process improvement projects and how fast can you move the maturity of the PMO, and that's what the roadmap is going to do for you.

Finding Help on Bad Days

Speaker 1 5:29

So that's one thing I'd really caution is don't load up your roadmaps with so many process improvement projects while still trying to execute so many programs and projects so many programs and projects it's worth calling out, I think, because a lot of the time PMOs go about trying to integrate, change or introduce capability or introduce services and I don't think they usually think about it as I like to use the term micro-projects, but think about it as like micro-projects, as you say, to process improve, and I think if they don't allow a capacity across their week or their month, then those focus areas typically fall by the wayside. So do you, do you suggest the percentage of time for an average PMO to focus on process improvement?

Speaker 2 6:16

I do. I use a 5% rule. I've used the 5% rule for the last I don't know 20 years or so, and I basically said everyone in the PMO is spending five percent of their time on process improvement projects, and then what I'm able to do is I'm able then to take that five percent and put it into their performance goals. So then we're like oh OK, so you know, you've got time dedicated, you've got it in your performance goals. Merit and stock and all that bonuses are all based on that. You can only imagine how fast this stuff gets done right. So yeah, so 2% or two hours a week on a 40-hour week is not a lot of time.

Speaker 1 7:00

No, definitely not. And I think I like the linking it into KPIs and things like that, because often a lot of the things that happen in a PMO are kind of behind closed doors and there's no real visibility and the progress it's making, and it's so blurry completely if there is a lot of initiatives going on at the same time. So I think that's quite clever. But, speaking about performance, so I've already told people a little bit about you know. I know we just dive deep really into a couple of things, but I think it was relevant because we just had that conference. It was just really insightful all those presentations we had. But let's take us back. So tell us about your early career and how did you end up in this space, and then we'll get into what's changed since, where you started and where you're now in terms of what we're seeing.

Speaker 2 7:42

Yeah, so I started in 1991. So way back in 1991, I was a business analyst and I begged and begged and begged my manager at the time to be a project manager. I said, please can I do it, Please can I do it. And she let me do it, and so from there I fell in love. Right, I said this is going to be the greatest job ever. And so I just started it all in IT. So I've been in IT but I've actually spanned outside of IT, but most of my time, over 32 years or something, has been in IT.

Speaker 1 8:14

And just before you go on, Bill, tell us, for those listening that maybe aren't in project management. What was it that you knew or didn't know at the time that made you want to be in project? So, was it something you were or didn't know at the time that made you want to be in Project? Soapbox Was it something you were seeing with your peers? Where did the sort of desire to be a PM.

Speaker 2 8:31

What was it about it? I didn't want to do any work, I'll just leave it at that, I thought. As a business analyst, I thought project managers didn't do any work, they just bossed the teams around. So I was like that's what I want to do, I the work, they just bossed the teams around.

Speaker 1 8:47

So I was like that's what I want to do.

Speaker 2 8:48

I just want to do that, love it. Yeah, okay, remember we're. We're back 1991, right, like things are different. So I was a business analyst. I was writing charters and BRD documents. I go, I want to do that. I just want to boss people around, I don't do any work. Yes, that's not the case.

Speaker 1 9:04

Very different, and you know it's good aspiring Like. I remember even like for me, many years ago. I remember just seeing what the project managers were getting paid and I was like I want what they're getting and that's like, so it's all things like that. But and then when? How far into you know your first project management journey, did you learn what it really was all about?

Speaker 2 9:26

Yeah, very quickly, right and so back back in the day we didn't have four or five, six projects that we were managing, right, there was very, you know, one or two projects at the most. It just wasn't like it is today. Right and so, but very, very quickly, I just kind of fell in love, because I fell in love with the leadership and the directions and the connecting with people and you know all that art and science kind of that negotiation and all that. You know that type of stuff as well as the tactical. I really I like the schedules and the risks and the issues and I liked all that tactical as well. So I really fell in love with it.

Speaker 1 10:09

And I fell in love with the role and I've been in it ever since. Just love it. And then how does the academics path, path come into it all? And I know you've been doing that for 20, yeah yeah, 2008, yeah, so what happened?

Speaker 2 10:17

yeah, so, oh, wow. So I was actually, yeah, in the early days I just taught IT, but in 2008 I wrote my first book. I co 2008,. I wrote my first book. I co-wrote in my first book, the Project Management Communication Bible. And what was interesting is I was a PMP in 2000. And then 2004, 2005,.

Meet Bill Dow – The PMO Authority

Speaker 2 10:36

We basically I was part of a master's project management board. So city university, a local university, they had a project management master's in project management class and they wanted industry leaders to come in and talk and really help guide the program. So we were looking at all the books and we were basically looking at what each of the courses and the books they had to put. They had to buy the students and we were looking at PM501, which is a project communication class. I still remember it and they had to buy like four or five different books. And I said that's crazy. And they said, well, there's just no books out there. It was 2005. There just wasn't a lot of books out there. I said let's just write one.

Speaker 2 11:19

So my co-writer and I said let's write a project communication book and we started writing it. It took three years, every night and every weekend except, uh, christmas, new Year's every night, every weekend for three years we did it, but we did it through Wiley Wiley and son back in the day and that was a big deal. So it was absolutely. Wiley back in the day was massive and so it was absolutely wily back in the day. It was massive and so it was a huge honor to be able to get picked up by them and run their first book and it was part of the Bible series. So you may remember Word Bible, excel Bible, windows Bible. This is Project Communication Bible.

Speaker 1 11:59

So then, thinking about, I'm sure from what you've described, the writing of the book was very challenging and very exhausting, fair to say, and a complex project. So why did you then go and do six others?

Speaker 2 12:12

Yeah, well, because I loved it and I could just see there was going to be a lot of opportunity and I was also working with a project manager who had been. He was 86 now. He was 60 plus back then. So he had been a project manager for 40 plus years in research and construction and IT. So it was a masterclass in project management. I learned more about Microsoft Project than you can ever imagine and more about project management. And so every night and every weekend for three years with someone who had 40 or 50 years of project management experience was incredible. I'm doing it. And then what happened is, once you get the books, you get the classes, so the courses go hey, we need a communications class teacher, do you have a book and your book? And blah, blah, blah. And then it just starts snowballing conferences, conferences and you know courses and all that type of thing.

Speaker 1 13:07

And I think I'll make sure we share a link to that book as well as your others in the show notes, because I think I've actually got a couple of your books. I've got the PMO, I think, my more recent ones. I remember buying them many years ago, early on, just kind of understand, because, you're right, there wasn't, at least when I was looking for some books there wasn't. At least when I was looking for some books there wasn't that many, particularly around PMO. So I think, yeah, it's interesting to see, um, how some of those, in terms of like leading successful PMOs and um and managing successful I think it was called.

Speaker 1 13:36

I might have got the titles wrong, but I'll include those. Um. I think um, you know, when I think about that example you just gave around academia and obviously them looking for that, that that's becoming a lot more common and I'm seeing a lot more industry expertise. We were at an event, the PMI event, recently and there was, you know, the university lecturers were there and they were. They were mingling with the, you know, the um, the corporate professionals, and really trying to cross um, pollinate between the two is that if we think about all the, all the, the academic side, the work happening in academic side, and the work happening and you're in both, what do you, what do you do? How do you balance or help people balance the theory of frameworks and project management and all of that stuff with the practical?

Speaker 2 14:22

yeah, and I think you just said is you're in both, and so I really try to write articles and do you know webinars and all the stuff that I do based on really what people are experiencing, right, because it's not theory, it's what I'm dealing with. I'm running a very large PMO right now with lots and lots of projects and PMs and portfolio and program managers, and I know the day-to-day challenges. So I try to write those over 20 plus years of doing this, and so I try to say what are they really going to experience, what are the challenges, what are they going to? And then how can I help them? Because I just love kind of sharing background experience, because there's so many people that want to get into this PMO leadership role and they don't really know what they're getting into, right, like that's some of the. You know it's a difficult role, it's not as easy as you think, and you think about a PMO manager who's running 30 people's, a 1 to 30 ratio, right, and so you know that's some of the things you have to consider, right?

Speaker 1 15:29

so, yeah, that's kind of where I was, where my thoughts are on that, yeah, and then thinking about, like a lot of the students that you've spent time in, what's the most common questions that you get asked um, are they? Have they changed over the years? Are they really common?

Speaker 2 15:43

they're common. Yeah, they're common, yeah, they're common. Hey, I stumbled into a PMO manager or leader role. I have no idea what to do. I'm a great project manager but they now want me to be a PMO person. That has been. The most common thing I've ever seen is they think you know leadership often thinks you can take a superstar project manager and make them a PMO leader. And it's so different from the people side and the negotiation side and the leadership side. It's just not the same.

Speaker 1 16:15

Right.

Speaker 2 16:15

Influence without authority on a project team is not the same as hiring fire Right and performance reviews and layoffs and downsizing and you know all those types of things that you have to deal with.

Speaker 1 16:29

So let's tap into that a little bit deeper, with someone listening now, thinking that they want to go down the path and I've actually had, even recently last week, I think it was I had a head of engineering who's in the market and keen to get into the PMO roles which a head of engineering is quite I would say quite a juicy, talented, skilled role. And for them to come and reach out and say how do I get into PMO? It's obviously the interest in PMO is growing and we're seeing that. But what are the differentiators between, say, someone who's sitting there going I'm a project manager today and I want to get into PMO? What is the big differences, do you think?

Speaker 2 17:07

Yeah, I'm going to go right with people management I'm going to go right with when you think about running a PMO, you're running an organization.

Speaker 2 17:15

Mark Price, perry, perry Price, I love him and he always have said to me he's always stepped back and he goes you're running an organization and I think that's the difference People don't think about it. So I've always kind of said you're running a PMO, you're running finance, you're running IT, you're running marketing, you have to think of it. He called it the business driven PMO, right. So you have to think of it as an organization and you don't sometimes you don't have that skill set as a tactical project manager to think like you're running an organization, you have an organizational budget, you have a training budget, you have a things that you just don't have running a tactical project. So that's where you need to get that skill set. Now someone for leading an engineering department is going to have that organizational right. They're going to understand that organization. They just may not know the tactics of running a project. So then you've got that disconnect, but that organizational, that's a key thing to focus on.

Speaker 1 18:18

I think the concept of like the business-driven PMO and even thinking about it and running an org is actually really. It's a really clever way of thinking about it, because you think about, you're right, there's resourcing, there's budgets, there's timelines. It's beyond the scope, timeline, costs that you would sort of typically get in a project.

Speaker 1 18:34

So, I think that makes a lot of sense. So if I'm someone who is in that project management role and I'm keen to get into PMO and I'm trying to figure out, do I spend my you know limited resources now investing in training, reading some of your books? If you were starting again now, what would you do to sort of start to build up that knowledge or experience?

Speaker 2 18:57

Yeah, 100%. Get a coach or a mentor. 100%, I mean the amount there's a. I think Tony Robbins says something like proximity is power, right, and so you think about that. If you get a coach or a mentor who's got all that experience in that background and can walk you through those things, you're going to grow that much faster than where you are today. Because you can read it, you can watch a five minute YouTube video, you can read a book, but you need to hear tactically how to handle these things and bounce things off, you know. So that's where I would go right there, eventually, there, eventually, like right there is, get a coach or a mentor. That's where I'd spend my resources and you and people be surprised.

Speaker 1 19:42

There's quite a lot of people out there that are volunteering their time to be mentors and that would actually be willing to do it. Um, I know some of us have maybe a bit more stretched or maybe have juniors in the team and maybe we're at capacity, but there are people that maybe are just sort of getting to the really peak of their career that would be open to build that experience. Just to mention and I'll include this in the show notes the PMO Leader Community runs a mentoring program as well, and I think you might already be aware of it.

Speaker 1 20:10

So that's definitely a place to start, and I think the other thing that may be relevant now I'm sure you've done some of this in your career is volunteering volunteering to support projects or in community groups, and is there any experience that you have done where you've put your hand up to volunteer for something that has led whether it's a conference or a project that maybe has led to to more further skills and experience that you didn't think of?

Speaker 2 20:36

yeah, a little bit more post-covid than uh, than our pre-covid than after, but you know our local uh pmi area, or pmi chapter, has had tremendous amount of events and mentoring opportunities and you know um projects where people can get on there and get involved. Um part of the college I was um I was teaching for as well, had non-profits that were looking for people and I've been involved with some of those. So, yeah, 100. There's lots of opportunities out there and, like you said, there's a lot of people that will actually mentor and help coach people and I think pmi chapters are absolutely a great place to start.

Speaker 1 21:15

They're everywhere and they all have the same goals in common, so that's a really good one. And thinking about just leadership in general, so we talk a little bit about. You mentioned leadership before. What sort of qualities or skills do you think are crucial for someone managing in projects and PMOs today, particularly with the nature of, how you know, volatile and uncertain and complex everything is around us? So what sort of leadership properties would you look for?

Speaker 2 21:42

Yeah, you know, when I think about it, right? So I always keep going back and I'm maybe the only one that does this, but I keep going back to art and science, right? I keep going back to the core of running a project is art and science. The core of running a PMO is art and science, right From relationships to advisor, to helper, to listener right, and so when you think about that art and science at the project level, that just gets much more complicated at the PMO level.

Speaker 2 22:14

But those are the core skill sets, right? You just need to come back to being a good communicator, being a negotiator, being a listener right, and just really having empathy for people. But then there's also that there's that technical side, because if you run PMOs for a while, you see that there's people that are amazing at art, there's people amazing at science, and it's the blend that those are the folks that become leaders. Those firefighters out there are often amazing at the technical side, but they may not be great at the human and the people side, because they're there to get the job done. But firefighters don't tend to run organizations, right? You don't have a firefighter running HR or a firefighter running marketing, so a firefighter is not necessarily going to run a PMO or not for a while, or not for a long time.

Speaker 1 23:05

Anyway, so that's what I would go back to. And I think, if you think about firefighters, they're there to react to a bad situation typically or preventative risks. So that makes a lot of sense and you can't run an org like that right.

Speaker 2 23:17

You have to be proactive. You've got to be thinking long term thinking, strategy thinking wide. I often say running a PMO is thinking wide, not deep. And you, just you can't do both. You can't do both successfully across a large number of programs and projects. You can't do both. You can't do both successfully across a large number of programs and projects.

Speaker 1 23:34

It's interesting because when you think about some PMOs, there are some PMOs that do have that sort of organizational-wide view, and then you see some that are more maybe at the program level, where maybe they don't have it as much. But I would sort of say that even the program-level PMOs themselves have to think about how they interact with those functions outside of their areas as well. So do you feel like there's much difference in the skills and qualities needed at sort of an enterprise level PMO versus a program level PMO?

Speaker 2 24:07

Not if you break it down to art and science. And I'll tell you a story. It's an interesting story. I was running at Microsoft, I was running a program PMO and it shut down and I had people in my office that were going to be laid off vendors, laid off, crying mortgages, kids in college, right and I was like, but that's a program PM like that, that right, and so that is the the art side, that's the people, the relationships, and they're gonna get laid out like they were vendors and employees. But no, I really don't. I think it comes back to the scale and the depth, of course, and the complexity. But there's two sets art and and then it's just how you apply those across both of them.

Overview of Bill's PMO Experience

Speaker 1 24:59

I remember once I was being very early on, before my first project manager role, I remember being interviewed by an executive who I think was trying to test me. But he said to me do you think project management is more art or more science? And at the time it was much, much earlier in my career, so I didn't know if he was trying to trick me. But I said it's, it's actually both. And you've just reiterated that um so um, I did get the answer right at the time. But just to be really clear for those listening, you know, when you think about science, you're talking about like the technical skills and the technical know-how, the tools, that all of stuff. And then the outside is like the soft skills, as you said, like communication, leadership, those sorts of things. So it's having both together that makes all the difference.

Speaker 2 25:40

Yeah, it really is. It's two key skill sets that will grow you in this career right, and leaning towards one or the other is okay, but it's the middle of the road people that do it both very, very well.

Speaker 1 25:58

That's where you're going to keep growing in your career and that that probably also makes them less just, you know, indispensable, like it makes them more likely to be promoted or to be, you know, if there is a group of people that are being like don't you like, that one with the multiple skill sets probably helps. One of the things you know. Interestingly, there's these stats that fly around about PMOs and the fact that you know whatever percentage shuts down, and this, and I think people neglect the fact that, as you pointed out, with the program PMO there's a defined start and end for a program and that's why they're shutting down. So I was just thinking, like if we had some suggestions for people in the program PMO role to, I guess, mitigate the risk of them losing their role, how they may be better aligned to, say, an enterprise PMO or, if there isn't one, how they maybe can help frame up some of the benefits of the program PMO to maybe instigate or suggest that. Do you have any suggestions or ideas how it can do that?

Speaker 2 26:57

Yeah, I love that question because we see those stats all the time. We don't often get a lot of data around the stats, but we see the stats and so one of the things that I've written in my two PMO books chapters on this is executive support. Books, chapters on this is executive support. You have to have executive support and you have to keep executive support. And that is hard the longer and longer you run a single PMO, because what happens is is the you got all the executive support in the world when you first start your PMO, you just get hired, you get all the people you want, all the money you want, but the more that you keep running it and it just becomes operations, it weans. Executive support weans. And you see these peaks and valleys, right, and it's at the valley where you got to be careful. The other thing that we often see is a three to five year turnaround of executives, right. So I really strongly believe you need to have that executive support to keep your PMO going.

Speaker 2 28:01

The other thing that we talked about kind of the second thing we talked about is treating it like an organization, right. So I have this placemat of service offerings and I have governance and tools and training and all these things. And I've used these placemats for a long time and at the bottom right it says program and projects. And every executive that I meet and come into the organization across multiple PMOs, I always show this placemat and I always put the bottom right because people read left to right is oh, and, by the way, we do programs and projects.

Speaker 2 28:36

So when you treat your PMO like an organization, it doesn't get shut down that easy. If you treat your programs and projects, it's your PMO, just programs and projects, they don't get shut down. Your PMO gets shut down, but the programs and projects don't go away. So it's really about how you market, how you continue to stay, make it valuable, stay aligned to strategy, stay aligned to leadership, continuing to deliver. But it has to be more than just programs and projects and that is something that served me well because I've always tried to treat it like an organization.

Speaker 1 29:15

Yeah, it's a really good call out. I think, yeah, people don't really remember that the three to five you turn around. It's very timely that you said that. But one thing I really love is you always hear in every survey and in every talk and every presentation it talks about getting executive support and it talks about as if it's this elusive thing and it's impossible to get. But your point around keeping it, strategies around keeping it. So tell me some strategies around keeping the executive support so I don't go into the valley.

Speaker 2 29:48

Yeah, so what I've done. And again, I spent 14 years at Microsoft, so I was a big Power BI person, right. So we constantly put dashboards and reports in front of them. We constantly put KPIs, we constantly. So when you're showing, constantly showing data of all the projects and programs that are executing, it's much easier, right, when you're running a solid governance process and they're seeing it go through this governance process. So it's about marketing. It's about continuing to show your value, continue to show and making sure that you understand the points that they're really focused on. Right, I have my CIO say how many interactive projects have you run? It's like the report's right there, but here you go. So it's constantly showing what you're doing for the organization. That's the key. And if you stay hide and you stay kind of quiet and you're not constantly out there, then it's going to be a much easier shutdown because it'll just be programs and projects, right. So you've got to be aligned to strategy.

Speaker 1 30:59

I think also what's really evident is the most common challenge area we've seen over the last 10 years in running services for clients is the most common challenge is that pipeline, demand management, that front door, that funnel, and I think most of the time like there was one client who had over you know almost 100 projects and most of them I'd say at least a third, let's say didn't align directly to any strategic objective, and so the PMO at the time was able to articulate those using the data, as you suggested, but actually calling that out. So I think directly linking to the strategic objective is a simple, simple thing and if you don't know what they are, then you're probably in the wrong job.

Speaker 2 31:42

Yeah, 100%. You just have to keep that alignment and as things change, like look how quick AI is happening, right? So as things change you have to pivot as well. But you want to constantly, be always aligned to your strategy and then looking at your PMO and adjusting and adjusting. And what service officers do we change now because of the strategy changing?

Speaker 1 32:07

And then thinking about. You know we talk about change. I want to sort of take a pivot to change management. So one of the trends that we called out this year, that is the relationship between PMOs and change management. Together they empower to do so much more and where the change management doesn't exist as a capability or a service or a function, pmos can really step up. And I think this comms piece around maintaining and marketing. All that, I think, feeds into that. What's your perception on the relationship between PMO and change from maybe even previously till now, and do you have a view either way?

Speaker 2 32:40

Yeah, I do, and so we had at one and we just lost one of our managers that did that but we had organizational change management within us as a service offering within our PMO. So when you think about organizational change management, there's two massive players right ProSci and Cotter. Those are the two kind of players and they are amazing Across the board. They're absolutely amazing and I strongly believe that you need to incorporate org change management in the delivery of your programs and projects, and those two models help you do that.

Speaker 2 33:15

Where I think it falls short a little bit is in the investment that we make in organizational change management. People Meaning. Do you put that work on the back of a project manager and while they're running a project, or do you hire a separate change management person that works alongside the project manager during the life of the project and does all those amazing things that Cotter and ProSci lay out there as a set of deliverables, because adoption is a huge component to program and project failure. So I love it, I live and dream and you know, if I could go back 30 years not that those two are around back then, but I would go into change management because it is so important and it's something we just don't do well, because I don't think it's necessarily in the life of a project that way.

Speaker 1 34:09

No, it's not. It's not and I think that's right. If you look at a lot of the project management methodologies that exist out there, they might reference it a little bit, but it really is. It's kind of like underpinned, so it's not in any particular stage of a project, it's kind of neglected. I feel like it's quite neglected and a lot of change management. I don't think it's getting the light that it deserves to get, compared to sort of like where PMO was maybe five. You might know more than me, but five to ten years ago PMO has now got spotlight on it, whereas it didn't 10 years ago.

The Importance of Service Offerings

Speaker 2 34:46

So I feel like, maybe change management hasn't had their day yet? No, and those two models are amazing right, they are absolutely amazing models. But yeah, no, it hasn't had its day yet and we need to get it there, because we're just seeing failure rates where we're not seeing the level of adoption, and we're also seeing massive change too. Right, there's so much change that's happening at such a change rate. That's the other component to it is how much change can the operations or the people that you're delivering the product to, can they take to? Can they take right? And so there has to be a component of ownership at the operations level, of the people getting the project to, to adopt that change and to be part of that change cycle throughout the life of the project, because you see it coming late and it's often too late.

Speaker 2 35:36

It has to start from day one a hundred percent.

Speaker 1 35:39

there's percent. There's definitely a reference point to that really just towards the end where we're about to go live with that transition piece. But if you don't engage early on, there was a program I remember about a year ago that just had failed multiple times and that part of the reason it was failing was because the change management function it just kept, it was outsourced and the supplier's team kept changing and changing and changing. There was no continuity. So it just sort of became this thing that just kind of people were, oh we're being re-engaged by this change team and it really didn't go anywhere. But I think when it's done well, the outputs are quite phenomenal.

Speaker 2 36:19

Tremendous. Yeah yeah, there's a model. You may have seen it. It's called a flight risk model. You've seen one of those before in ProSci. Yes, and it's fascinating. It's how an individual will go through a change. Now can you imagine if and we still do phase gates, for example? But can you imagine getting to a phase gate and not going forward because the flight risk model is showing they're not ready yet?

Speaker 2 36:46

A hundred percent Now imagine that level of maturity from a change perspective, right, and how long it could take our projects to get there. But that's ultimately what you would do. You wouldn't go forward if the organization who's going to get this product is not ready to take the product it's a good call out.

Speaker 1 37:04

One of the other programs I remember was doing change quite successful they we had a business readiness, a technology readiness and a people readiness, and the people readiness components was running um sort of really light touch pulse check type surveys to measure um readiness. That was like month one, month two, month three and then comparing them. And then we were able to give like a dashboard view, again using Power BI to provide visibility to executives on this division of this company was ready and this division of this company is not ready. And then it was escalated to that division manager to kind of say your people aren't ready, as opposed to sort of brushing it under the carpet and just hoping it goes well.

Speaker 2 37:41

But think about, how rare that is. That's rare, but imagine how successful that it would have been, right, I mean, I'm sure it was successful when it went live because it checked all the right boxes, the change boxes, so you didn't have to fight with adoption.

Speaker 1 37:58

A hundred percent and people don't't want to. There is some organizations and some clients and some managers that don't care whether we're ready or not, they just want to just do it because we've got our apis, go live and we just yeah. And I think that's the mistake, because the biggest problem is often that all of this stuff gets handed over, they're thrown over the fence to operations and becomes their problem, because your project managers end up having to be moved to other projects.

Speaker 2 38:25

Yep, yeah, well, and that's why the whole industry of, or the whole scenario around, roi and benefits and often these multi-million dollar programs, right, when do you get the benefits? A month later, two months later or years later, and it's often years later and PMs and teams are long gone and it's really more of an industry problem, right, it's the same thing. You have to have operations own the ROI and the benefit because they're the ones that ask for it and will be around longer. So it is fascinating. It's an industry problem.

Speaker 1 39:00

And they're still on that point. You're right. They beneficialization piece, because it's in particularly large programs. It might be two, three, five years. Yeah, at the end of the day it becomes someone else's problem. And who's really holding accountable to whether we get the benefits or not? I don't know if anyone's actually checking. So that's another one.

Speaker 2 39:17

Now, where you would probably see that is in manufacturing. You'd probably see that in a Boeing and an Airbus. Right, we spent millions to build this plane, and so what's the turnaround and how fast can we do it? You know, you'd probably see that in much more mature industries right Manufacturing, right being one construction. What does a bridge cost cost? And then the highway fees or whatever right in different industries. You'd probably get that, yes, but they're.

Speaker 1 39:48

But they're at a different scale and they're at a different project management maturity as well a hundred percent and I think they um are also factoring that effort associated with tracking that all the way at the beginning of the programs I know in defense. They do that government. Government programs usually have to provide that evidence for audits ability purposes as well, so I think that comes into it as well.

Speaker 1 40:08

Yeah, well, it's interesting because I think there's definitely, like I said, we set a spotlight that hasn't shown brightly yet on change management, so maybe that's coming we'll see, we'll see how that goes, and then thinking about one of the other big sort of topics of conversation going on right now hybrid working, remote working you said you're running a really large team at the moment. In your organization. What's been the experience running remote hybrid? Is it a mix? What's your perception?

Speaker 2 40:35

on how that works. We're all remote, right, so we're medical, so we support hospitals. We're in it, we support hospitals, and before covet we were there, and since covet we're all remote. We continue to be all remote, which has been amazing because we've been able to hire all around the america so we've had. We've opened the pool and being able to pull. Now everyone works Pacific Coast time but we just have had a much larger pool of people, but we're all remote.

Speaker 1 41:07

And have you found for you and your team, have you been able to demonstrate to executives that you're either getting the same level of productivity, if not more, like using data and actually providing that sort of insight?

Speaker 2 41:21

Yeah, our project levels have gone through the roof over the last three, four years. It is tremendous. We're well over 100 projects that we're managing, all hybrid waterfall no agile, little to no agile, but yeah, so it's gone through the roof. We've seen basically no drop in productivity. We don't through the roof, we've. We've seen, no, basically no drop in productivity. We just we don't have the time, we're just, we're constantly cranking. So, yeah, we just don't have the time. So it's worked fine. But the role of a project manager they work in coffee shops, they work and right there, they really don't have to be remote. We, prior to COVID, I'd have a project manager run a kickoff meeting, sitting alone in a conference room and people all around them, and they wouldn't walk to the conference room. So you know, that whole remote thing for project managers is kind of a red herring. They can work anywhere, they're fine. You know that's the luxury of the role. Give them a laptop and a Wi-Fi and they're good.

Speaker 1 42:23

You're even seeing these days just in the medical space I know when we did some work in medical in the private hospital sector you see some really interesting inventions. But there's even the ability for some doctors to actually work remotely using special technology and I remember reading about a surgery that was done from like asia to, I think, someone in the I don't know where it was, but remarkable. So when they're even doing medical operations remotely. That's pretty cool yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 42:51

Well, the doctor's appointments, right have has gone through the roof. Yes, whatever they call telehealth, telehealth yes, yes gone through the roof since covid right so, which has been amazing?

Speaker 1 43:01

Yes, it's good, you don't have to drive to a doctor's office. So yeah, it's been great and you can fit it in in your day. So I just think it's an interesting battle a lot of companies are facing, but it's always good to hear and get the different perspectives. So I think that's, you know that's really helpful we're seeing so many return to office.

Speaker 2 43:20

Right, we're seeing all these mandates of Apple and now Starbucks, and right, we're just seeing all this and it's causing so much stress. Right, there's no reason, If we had COVID 2.0 tomorrow, these companies that are pulling people back would say okay, go back home, Don't miss a beat, Log back on. So you know, you don't. It's really interesting that they're doing that. Right, Amazon's doing it as well, and that's well known. So you know, it's just interesting and I think it's causing a lot of heartache when you don't need it.

Speaker 1 43:56

Yeah, absolutely. That makes sense. And then thinking about just in terms of the PMO space you've written so many books about it, you've spent a lot of time talking about it. You've shared some really great insights so far. If you were talking to someone who was just about to set up a new PMO regardless of where maybe it's a program PMO what would be if you had to say the top three things if I could do nothing else? What would be my three things? If you had to say the top three things if I could do nothing else, what would be my three things? Two or three things that you think I need to prioritize in my PMO when setting up from scratch.

Speaker 2 44:26

Yeah. So first, the very first thing I think you have to do is you have to understand the business challenges. So in several PMOs I've gone to, I've literally sat down and I've interviewed, saying what are your problems with your PMO? And I've heard everything and it's just like a boxing match, right, and my head just gets pounded. Your people don't do this, they don't do this, they don't do this. Now, are they all PMO problems? No, but what they are are a set of problems that you're going into because you can't. What is? You can't prove, you don't measure right, or you can't measure. You can't prove, you don't measure right or you can't measure. We don't improve.

Speaker 2 45:10

The point is you know exactly where to focus, because these are the current problems. So step one is get the current problems down. Once you have the current problems down, then you can start figuring out what are your services right? Basically, how do I map the problems to solving those problems? And I've done it through services and I just said they say we don't have status reports. Ok, we need a reporting tool. They say we don't execute well, ok, what's our methodology? So it's that mapping between the two, and then it's the hiring of the people between the two, and then it's the hiring of the people, and so those are the three kind of fundamental things that I would say. Start there, because all of that's it's just going to continue to grow. And then you're going to start thinking about strategy alignment, you're going to start thinking about mission and goals and really starting to think about running an organization, not a bunch of programs and projects, and then everything will should just fall in place.

Speaker 1 46:06

And presumably your business challenges and services, and obviously the people you hire will again reflect on what the organization's strategic objectives are as well.

Speaker 2 46:15

So it's a full circle as well, yeah, it's a full circle and the people that you're interviewing are going to have that in mind. They're going to know that, right? Hey, we're going big on telemed or we're going whatever the case may be right. So we need projects that focus on that, or we have problems in that space, or you know that type of thing. So you're going to hear directly from the people that are currently the customers of the programs and projects that are being ran and then, regardless that you have a PMO or not, there's still going to be programs and projects being ran in that company, sure?

Speaker 1 46:48

well, there's no need for a PMO if there's no projects or programs, that's right, that's true do you want to keep the project and program and he's just happy. Otherwise there's no need to get them on's. Get them on side, that's for sure.

Speaker 1 47:00

I want to manage them and then, thinking about the up and coming you know your junior project manager or your senior project analyst, your coordinator, someone who's really up and coming in their career for project management what would you recommend they focus on? You talked about art and science before. Is there anything within either one of those or something specific that you would recommend that they focus on to help them in their career?

Speaker 2 47:23

Yeah, 100%, yeah. So I really have liked what PMI has done with the CAPM. So when you think about a junior one, two, three years, I love that CAPM. I think that's a great entry level and I'm sure the other methodologies have that kind of entry. But that entry level certification right, let's get the words down, let's get the kind of the taxonomy down right and let's understand how we drive a project.

Speaker 2 47:51

Start with that certification and then get some experience right Work alongside project managers, volunteer for projects, do some research, do some, get your coach, get your coach, get your mentor and just keep growing. But spend a little time. I was I don't know, I was 17 years or something as a project manager before I got my PMP. Like, don't rush out and get every certification in the world, right, you may not even like the job. Just like, calm down as a junior PM, get your cap them. That's awesome, right, that's a low bar, but then it's going to get you. Hey, I kind of like this or I don't like this. But the people that rush out and just get every letter after their name, why, right, why, why are you doing that?

Speaker 2 48:36

you know, so that's where I would go absolutely, it's a good call.

Speaker 1 48:40

I'll be honest, as someone who hires a lot of people, I've never been fazed by the letters at the end of someone's name at all. I mean, unless I'm hiring, for, you know, a medical professional, then I'm going to care about what comes after the name, but typically no. But I can attest to the CAPM with PMI. That was one of the first ones I did many years ago, amongst other things. But yeah, absolutely gives you the, the foundational knowledge and, like you said, the glossary, the taxonomy, the some of the theory that then you can supplement by then building your on your experience.

Speaker 2 49:11

So I think that's really good for that and you'd work alongside a PMP very nicely, because you'd be saying, hey, what's risk management? We know exactly what risk management means.

Speaker 1 49:19

Like we, we, we get the same talk right, absolutely, and people you work alongside will give you time and support and I know I got a lot of mentoring but they're also going to want to expect that you do some of your own homework and not expect all the answers so.

Speaker 1 49:35

I think that sounds great. So, bill, we're almost wrapping up today. How can people get in touch with you? Is there something specific that you want them to be part of, to download? Is there a specific book you want them to pick up? Out of all your books, is there one that you think is the most important?

Building Effective PMO Roadmaps

Speaker 2 49:53

to start with, yeah, you know what? One of the links I gave you was buildoutpmptrainingcom. There's so much free stuff up there. There's so many free project manager books or e-books and PMO e-books, but buildoutpmptrainingcom is perfect and my email, I think you have that but buildout at daoepublishingllccom is perfect.

Speaker 1 50:16

But yeah, that's it.

Speaker 2 50:17

You know, there's a lot.

Speaker 1 50:21

I could push courses and all that stuff, but I'm good, Well, I'll make sure I link to your LinkedIn, your email and to that website as well. Yeah, and also some of the references you talked about, like the pro side, the quota, et cetera. Is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners, a call to action, a piece of advice or a question to ponder before we wrap up today?

Speaker 2 50:39

Yeah, you know, I just you know, when you think about project management, you think about PMOs, you think about it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. Right, you've got your whole career to grow, right, and we talked we just were kidding about all the certifications and stuff, right, but it's an amazing career. I love it, I just love it. And so when you fall into something you absolutely love, you don't work a day in your life, right. And so think about it as a marathon. Think about a slow journey there's going to be, you know, there's going to be a lot of problems and there's going to be a lot of successes and just think about it as a journey and with little sprints along the way, but think about it as a journey with little sprints along the way but think about it as a journey, amazing.

Speaker 1 51:23

Thank you, bill, and thanks for all the work you've done in the books. I've definitely got some of them and they were very helpful early on in my career, so I really appreciate all the work you're doing. Yeah, thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things Agile ideas. Go to our website, wwwagilemanagementofficecom. I hope you've been able to learn, feel or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your Agile idea?