#157 | Sustainability Meets Project Management: The Green PMO Revolution with Eman Deabil

What happens when project management expertise meets sustainability principles? Eman Deabil, Bahraini transformation management leader and award-winning professional, reveals the powerful intersection that sparked her global Green PMO initiative.

Emerging from a desire to create something uniquely Bahraini that would impact the world, Iman's collaborative book project brings together diverse thought leaders to explore how Project Management Offices can drive meaningful sustainability transformation. She explains how combining her PMO experience and sustainability knowledge created the foundation for this innovative approach.

Eman offers practical strategies for organisations struggling to integrate Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) principles into their operations. She emphasizes creating specific sustainability KPIs, aligning projects with UN Sustainable Development Goals, and establishing clear accountability mechanisms. Most importantly, she addresses the challenge of convincing resistant stakeholders by translating sustainability initiatives into financial terms, and demonstrating long-term value creation.

In this episode we discuss: 

• Combining PMO expertise with ESG knowledge 

• Using KPIs and strategic alignment to incorporate sustainability into project management

• Overcoming management resistance 

• Applying emotional intelligence to understand stakeholder dynamics 

• Becoming a "T-shaped" project manager 

Check out Iman's best-selling book "Green PMO" to learn how project management offices can lead sustainability transformation in organizations.

Book your discovery assessment here: https://agilemanagementoffice.com/discovery-assessment/ 

Thank you for listening; PLEASE share or rate this if you enjoyed it. #AgileIdeas 

Transcript

Introduction to Iman Debel

Speaker 1 0:00

You're listening to Agile Ideas, the podcast hosted by Fatima Rabouchi. For anyone listening out there not having a good day, please know there is help out there. Hi everyone and welcome back to another episode of Agile Ideas. I'm Fatima, ceo at AMO, mental Health Ambassador and your host On today's podcast. I'm joined by Iman Debel.

Speaker 1 0:26

Iman is a Bahraini transformation management leader with over 15 years of experience in various industries. She's held senior positions and led successful transformation projects. Iman is also a best-selling author and a keynote speaker in her field and is actively involved in the project management community and holds prestigious certifications and the list is quite long, so I won't read them all, but you can definitely find her on LinkedIn. Iman is an award-winning professional. In 2024, she got the ACE Award for Outstanding Woman in Project Controls, and her recent initiative, the Green PMO, won the Powerless Middle East Award for Best Sustainable Initiative. Iman is a doctorate student at UCLAN examining the moderating role of PMO on the relationship between ESG adoption and organisational performance. So please join me in welcoming Iman to the show.

Speaker 1 1:24

Iman, thank you for joining me. Thank you for hosting me. No problem, it's a pleasure. Obviously, you and I connected earlier this year when you shared with me this initiative that you're working on, your Green PMO. So I wanted to start there because I think, first of all, when I heard about that terminology, I didn't know whether it actually meant what I thought it meant and it probably for some people, not really clear because not many people spend time in that space. So tell me a little bit more about where you started your green, whether it was with this book or in your career. Just tell me where the passion for ESG and explain that to people that are listening so they know what the concept of green means.

Speaker 2 2:15

Very interesting question. So, basically, green is just a symbolic name for the book, by the way, because green is not really a green thing. It indicates sustainability in general. It indicates ESG, environmental, social and governance. It indicates so many things around the broader concept of sustainability. So it's not really the color green, it's the indication behind it.

Speaker 2 2:39

So there were a lot of triggers to trigger this Green PMO initiative. To be very frank with you Some external triggers and some internal triggers. When it comes to the external triggers, I would say COVID-19 has triggered it all, because everyone was speaking during that year about sustainability, about digital transformation, about AI. So COVID-19 was one of the triggers, the main triggers. Again, some of the incidents that happened during that year also, where you know, triggered this initiative as an external trigger, but there were a lot of internal triggers as well. What do I mean by internal triggers? Something related to me.

Speaker 2 3:16

I wanted to create something global. I wanted to create that global global movement that will start from bahrain, my small cute island, you know, in the middle of the sea. I wanted to create something that is related to Bahrain, that is created from Bahrain, that is triggered from Bahrain to the whole world, and I wanted to have that as a collaborative book. At first I decided to go for a single author book, but then I realized that the value of it would be more if we go for a collaborative book, because it will include a lot of different perspectives, diversified backgrounds, you know, a lot of thoughts. Thought leaders will contribute to that book. Also, we will gain a lot of network. Instead of having 10,000, for instance, in my network I would have millions of connections because of the other networks. So that was the trigger. To be very frank with you, that was the main thing behind the global initiative.

Speaker 1 4:14

And where does your knowledge or your experience come from that helps you to be able to curate something like this book?

Speaker 2 4:24

Very interesting question. So, yeah, I studied for ESG Diploma in ESG, that was back in 2022. Yeah, I finished it all and in 2021, I finished my PFMP. So PMO, represented by the PFMP, and then Sustainability, represented by the Diploma and ESG. I decided to combine both concepts together and then to go for something that is unique in nature because of the combination.

Combining PMO and Sustainability

Speaker 2 4:55

I attended a seminar, actually a seminar that was conducted by one of the gurus here in Bahrain. He's an international speaker, his name is Mohammed Chouri, and he was speaking about the uniqueness in each person, how to be the one and only and how to create your uniqueness value. So one of the things that he was speaking about is how to create your own mixture. So that triggered me to think about that mixture of PMO and sustainability. So I combined both concepts together and I decided to go for this global initiative.

Speaker 2 5:31

Yeah, back to your question what triggered this? In terms of experience and academic qualifications or, you know, learning in general? I would say the diploma, the PFMP and, besides that, the experience that I gained throughout my journey, my career, because I used to handle PMOs, I used to handle projects and I used to manage those projects in the more sustainable manner ever. I used to have some KPIs that are related to sustainability, not knowing that those are sustainability KPIs, but, in summary, they were sustainability KPIs. In general, they were sustainability KPIs. So I used to embrace sustainability a lot, big time, and my focus was never on time, on quality, on scope, my, my focus was on creating a longer uh value or a long-term value. Uh, so that was it.

Speaker 1 6:32

that was it, I would say, and and then thinking back about thinking back to the experience of getting together those you know, contributing authors, to support this initiative, which I do think is seems to be the most more common way these days, because, as you said, it increases that network effect. I think that's really great, but also you're probably going to get lots of different perspectives, some of which I assume you'll be aligned to and others maybe that was surprising. So what, what, if anything, surprised you during that process, either the process itself or the content coming your way from those authors? Was there anything that surprised you?

Speaker 2 7:13

Oh, very interesting. Well, a lot of surprises, a lot of challenges, a lot of things we have experienced together. But you know what? What surprises me is the quality of the submissions. They were really, you know, on time. We had to leave, to be very frank with you, we had to leave some people behind because they did not stick to the deadlines. And we are project managers, we have to respect deadlines and you know, that's the hassle of every project manager, I would say the hustle of every project manager. I would say, managing a group of project managers was not really, you know, a nice, you know, a nice journey at all. It was so challenging to get them all on track and to get them all aligned on one perspective and to get them, you know, surrounding the perspective of the book and the vision of the book. So there were a lot of challenges, but those challenges we have embraced happily, because we have learned a lot along the way.

Speaker 2 8:13

Yeah, in terms of surprises, we didn't experience a lot of surprises, to be very frank. The nice ones, yes, we expected them. Surprises in terms of awards we gained a lot of awards, like the powerless middle east, that was not planned for. The amazon best selling, it was planned for and then we gained it. So it was a nice surprise. And another award that we are gaining, uh, towards the end of this month also, uh, I would. I would say that we will announce it in due time. And another award we gained also women changing the world. So that award also I gained last month, um, for this particular book. So, yeah, a lot of nice surprises.

Speaker 1 8:57

That's amazing the bad ones. Not bad surprise, other than people not being punctual, which, uh, in pmo we don't like. So that's definitely a challenge we always face. I think it's great to see the progress that it's made so far in such a short period of time, and well done on the awards. I think it's great to see some of these initiatives and being women-led and coming out of, as you said, a small country like yours, I think I'm curious to know if we dig deeper into how PMOs themselves, as sustainability itself, becomes more of a priority more broadly.

Speaker 1 9:32

You know we're familiar with, you know, the UN development goals and then also companies themselves moving to having, you know, more of a sustainably led focus. I know, as you mentioned earlier, in a lot of companies that I've seen over the last few years, it seems to be one of the, I guess, criteria when assessing new initiatives and projects, be it small or large. So how do we, in the role of a project management office, evolve to support the environmental and organizational goals? Like, where would I start if I wanted to incorporate more of ESG into my focus?

Speaker 2 10:12

That's very interesting. So I would say, let's start by learning, let's start by establishing awareness, because any change to be embraced, it has to start with awareness, has to start with a vision. It has to start with awareness, has to start with a vision. It has to start with a clear objective. So, yeah, let's educate ourselves about sustainability, first of all as PMOs, and then let's embrace it.

Integrating ESG into Project Management

Speaker 2 10:34

The models that were suggested in the book they were many, to be very frank with you, but one of the models that was suggested is to have KPIs, specific KPIs when it comes to ESG, and those KPIs will be embraced throughout the project execution. So, if we are assuming that the PMO would be responsible for the strategy development, for instance, the PMO needs to ensure that there are benefits that will be capitalized on and that will be realized throughout the execution of those projects that will be executed, part of the strategy. They need to align themselves to the strategic objectives. At the end of the day, some of the strategic objectives will be related to the ESG and those ESG will be translated into some measurable matrix and measurable KPIs. Those KPIs also needs to be tracked, needs to be identified, needs to be assigned to owners, needs to be, you know, measured on a frequent basis. Clear accountability needs to be assigned to owners needs to be measured on a frequent basis. Clear accountability needs to be established.

Speaker 2 11:29

People need to be aware of the KPIs that we are embracing as a PMO and we need to cascade it further to all the departments. Everyone needs to contribute to those sustainability goals. So there are a lot of models. There are a lot of things that could be actually incorporated part of the PMO to ensure that sustainability is embraced big time. Another model could be embracing it part of the strategy development. Another model could be by just identifying all the SDGs that we are going to contribute with. One of the models could be to align all the projects to some specific SDGs. Sdgs stands for Sustainable Development Goals that were ensured by the United Nations in 2015. So all of these could contribute in a way to embrace sustainability as part of the PMO role.

Speaker 1 12:21

What have you found, either in your past experience working with clients or from feedback you've gotten from those that have even read the book, around the challenges that they may face to incorporate more ESG into either their company or their teams? Are you getting any feedback from the readers of the book that are sharing challenges they're facing and can you elaborate on any challenges?

Speaker 2 12:45

Yeah, one of the most you know challenges that they are encountering currently is how to convince their management of the value of sustainability, because some of the uh management team, let's say, they don't believe in sustainability, they don't believe in esg, they don't believe in this uh. They call it a lot of a lot of things, to be very frank, but mainly, but mainly, they are actually putting it under the category of marketing and corporate communication and PR stuff. So they don't really believe in the long-term value creation of those sustainability initiatives. And that's why my doctorate came into place, because I wanted to convince everyone that there is a value behind all the sustainability initiatives, convince everyone that there is a value behind all the sustainability initiatives. There is some financial matrix that we need to incorporate going forward, part of the sustainability initiatives that we are executing, yeah, part of our journey. So, yeah, the key challenge I would say is the buy-in from the different stakeholders, the buy-in from the management in specific, and how they can convince their management to embrace sustainability.

Speaker 1 13:50

And then thinking about how to convince management what has been your advice to them. Obviously, you mentioned financial benefit, because that's a natural benefit of many projects. Is there any other suggestions you would have for someone who is trying to convince their manager, like where to get started when they don't really care about this or it's not a priority for them?

Speaker 2 14:14

I think awareness will play a big role in this. They have to educate everyone, even if it's the senior management. They need to be educated on the value that will be created of the sustainability initiatives. They need to see the benefits in terms of numbers. They need to be educated on the value that will be created of the sustainability initiatives. They need to see the benefits in terms of numbers. They need to see the figures, because what they care about is only the figures. To be very frank with you, I sat in those. You know those rooms big time. They care about the figures. They will ask you about the return on investment for each initiative. They will ask you about how it will contribute to the bottom line, how it will contribute to our financial matrix, how it will contribute to the shareholders, how it will contribute to the return on equity or return on average assets. So they will ask those questions. We need to have and prepare the answers for those questions in order for us to convince them.

Speaker 1 15:02

I guess it makes sense because a lot of the time when in particularly in transformation and we'll get into that in a minute but particularly when people are pushing back against something, it's usually for lack of knowledge or lack of lack of awareness of what it is that's coming to change itself. So I think that probably ties in nice nicely to that. So I want to circle now to you know change in general and transformation in general. So tell us a little bit more about your journey as a transformation leader. Where did you get started and how did you fall into this world of project management? Talk us through your journey.

Speaker 2 15:42

Oh, that's really interesting. Oh, so my, okay, my life was always in two parallels, to be very frank with you. One parallel is for the education, all the academic and professional qualifications, and the other parallel was for the career adventures. I would say, back in 2007, before the graduation also and I graduated from business information systems, so an IT college in its nature I was accepted as part of the management training program for one of the companies here in Bahrain, and it was a big company. After four years I realized that I can't be in IT anymore. You know, information technology is not my field. I need to be with people. So I decided to move out from that company.

Transformation Leadership Journey

Speaker 2 16:27

I stayed at home for six months, um, trying to finish my mba during that time. So after six months I got an opportunity to join the training sector as a project coordinator and a trainer at the same time, and since then I didn't leave those behind me, to be very frank. So I stick to training and I stick to project management. Since then. I stayed there for six months and then I got another opportunity for a better salary. So I moved out to the banking sector as an IT auditor. I used to manage a lot of engagements related to IT and project management. So after that I got my offer from Deloitte as a consultant. So after that I got my offer from Deloitte as a consultant. So I moved to Deloitte and it was a turning point for me because Deloitte, let's say it shaped my personality. Yeah, as a consultant, it really polished my rough edges. Yeah, as a consultant again. So Deloitte after Deloitteoitte couple of years I spent there, I got another job and one of the reinsurance companies was an international company. So I moved out from Deloitte to the reinsurance industry as a change management specialist, working under the strategy department and the handling the PMO mainly. And after that I got another offer in the banking sector, back to the banking sector, as a lead of the transformation management office.

Speaker 2 17:53

Throughout all these years, project management never left me. Yeah, training never left me. Consultancy never left me. So those, I would say, shaped my personality as a transformation leader at the last stage. Yeah, project management, that combination, you know, being able to wear different hats at the same time, being able to switch those hats whenever is needed I think that that was the journey. And when it comes to education, I got another. You know, I got, um, a lot of certifications along the way, like the pmp, pfmp, cgit. So it depends on the situation and the context. If I need something, I would go for it to, and those type of credentials I would say it will give you more um credibility and it will give you more respect in terms of knowledge absolutely, and I and I didn't read them out in your bio because there's so many of them, but I think it what underscores that is exactly what you said.

Speaker 1 18:56

It's not only the reputable, but also I think I find that it plugs gaps sometimes in our knowledge where we may not realize. I find that in particular when doing some of the more well-known certifications, it helps to reframe your thinking and refine it a little bit better. So you end up picking up things from one to the other and I think it adds a lot of value for the clients as a consultant that you're working when you're working as a consultant as well. So I think that's why changing positions regularly in consulting is not really it's not a bad thing. It's actually really positive, I think, because you learn from each of those industries and then it makes you a better consultant and better leader and ultimately a better transformation executive. So I think that's a that's a really a good example of a career trajectory where you did start sort of grassroots and worked your way up. So that's great.

Speaker 1 19:53

I I'm keen to know when you think about. You talked about the people. So I appreciate moving from IT to more of a people focus and that's really relevant for projects. So so tell me what is your experience and I guess you're working in global companies and you're working with very different teams, probably cross-country, multicultural. How do you manage different personalities and different people and bring them on that journey? Are you using education and journey? Are you using education and awareness? Are you using training? How do you do that? And if you share some insights that help those that maybe are early in their career, or maybe more junior consultants, what can you talk to about that?

Speaker 2 20:39

Very interesting question how do you manage different personalities? I would say try to understand all of them. Emotional intelligence will play a big role in this because by trying to understand all of them, their perspectives, their agendas sometimes they have their own personal agenda. We have to understand those personal agenda. We need to understand the dynamics between all of them. We need to understand the political map you know behind the scenes and we need to read it really in a very good manner in order for us to understand to whom we are referring to, to whom we are seeking approvals, to whom we are seeking, you know, advice.

Speaker 2 21:14

All of these stuff are very essential and we need to put it in our map. If we are managing cross-functional projects or cross-borders projects, we need to put in our map all the different stakeholders, their expectations, their aspirations to the project, what they are expecting to see, what they are expecting to have at the end of that project and throughout. So I think reading between the lines is very essential. Learning how to read different people and different personalities will depend mainly on your level of emotional intelligence and political intelligence, not only emotional intelligence. Um, trying to figure out all the different dynamics between all of them, um, yeah, that that would be the, the key lesson I would say.

Managing Change and Stakeholder Resistance

Speaker 1 21:56

Trying to understand between the lines, read them and and then thinking about, you know difficult stakeholders. Sometimes we experience that, particularly when you're running something that's significant Transformations usually when they're enterprise-wide are quite a significant change you get a lot of resistance, and so you might find situations where someone just doesn't want to jump on the bus, so to speak. How have you dealt with difficult stakeholders that are resistant to change, and can you talk?

Speaker 2 22:29

through any examples. Resistance to change oh, the key challenge here, Resistance to change. Yeah, Okay, there are a lot of change management models, to be very frank with you. So, change management models. One of them is the ADKAR model. It's very well known in the area of project management. So ADKAR stands for awareness, knowledge, desire, ability and reinforcement. So start with awareness, because every change to be enabled, it has to start with awareness. Establish that awareness upfront. Let them know that they don't know and educate them accordingly. And when they receive good education, by the way, they will try to understand you, they will respect you more for your knowledge and for your experience that you are sharing with them. One specific example about this I During one of the project's implementations.

Speaker 2 23:33

It was really strict in terms of deadline because it's a regulatory requirement. So I was assigned that project in November and we were supposed to deliver that project in January, before end of December, before end of year. So and it's a cross-functional project it's very challenging. There are a lot of regulations that we need to embrace, there are a lot of systems that we need to fix, to fix that regulation and to embed it accordingly. So one of the key challenges that we face is resistance, Resistance from different stakeholders, how we can do this in two months. How can do I don't know what. I told them you freeze your schedules just for this project because we got the buy-in and one of the key uh things that I did during that time is to take the buy-in from the management themselves. So the management was supporting me big time. They they were empowering me to take decisions whenever is needed. So empowerment was very key during that time because I can defeat resistance of change from different people by the empowerment sought from the management.

Speaker 2 24:40

Another thing we established awareness across. We told them about the value of implementing this project in terms of regulations. We told them about the value of implementing this project in terms of regulations. We told them about the consequences of not applying this project, because it's a regulatory requirement at the end of the day and we will get penalty at the end. So we told them about the consequences, the challenges that we might encounter, all the things we educated them. All the things we educated them. We established awareness across the board and we were able to deliver before the deadline. We were able to deliver before even the end of December and we shared that success with everyone. We shared that celebration with everyone. We celebrated our success. Yeah, so back to your question resistance of change. And this particular scenario was defeated by the empowerment seat, so the management first, and by the education that was established.

Speaker 1 25:35

So you know, I think that's a really good point, because the biggest gap for PMOs often is that they don't have stakeholder buy-in and sorry, executive buy-in. And in all of the sort of studies that you see in a lot of different surveys constantly I mean I've seen three this year from a number of reputable sources and they all talk about not having sponsor buy-in or management buy-in or executive support. So even though it sounds like the most simple thing of getting that buy-in, just having that, you're right, it really does make a big difference. And also, as you said, educating people on what the change is. I recall working in a bank a few years ago, quite a few years ago, and we had a very, very critical strategic project. It wasn't regulatory in nature but very similar to you. What we had was a physical letter from the CEO at the time of this big, big four bank. That was effectively the green light for everything. And, as you said, pause your schedules and focus on this initiative, because this was considered the most strategic initiative at the time. So I can relate to that very much and I'm sure others listening probably can too.

Creating Multiple Lives Instead of Balance

Speaker 1 26:51

So I just want to sort of come towards your entrepreneurial sort of endeavours and your entrepreneurial space, and you obviously do. You're doing a lot in a lot of different capacities, but as a as as a recognized outstanding woman in project controls and someone who's you know, really changing this, the game in your space, how do you stay motivated? How do you? Um, you do a lot of continuous learning, so that's great. How do you continue to stay motivated and balance the corporate life and the entrepreneurial life and you know the consultant how do you balance all of that? How do you stay organized and balance all of that?

Speaker 2 27:33

They always have. You know, they always say you have to balance between work and life, and I don't believe in this. You know, to be very frank, I don't believe in work-life balance. This terminology is really, you know, it's itching me. So I believe that we have only one life, but we can create different lives out of this one life. Yeah, so we have 24 over 7, 24 hours and 7 days in the whole week. We have 30 days over one month and we have 3, 6, 5 for the whole year.

Speaker 2 28:08

We can create a life every single minute. Every single minute, we can create a different life, we can create a different project, we can think differently, we can embrace a different challenge. We can do a lot of things. Honestly speaking, during this past year 2024, was very rewarding year in terms of projects, in terms of voluntary activities that I have done, in terms of the webinars that I have, you know, done and executed. I made a promise beginning of this year that I need to deliver the Green PMO webinar to 1,000. Now I am measuring this KPI and it reached 12,000 and the number is still increasing.

Speaker 1 28:54

Oh wow, Well done yes.

Speaker 2 28:56

Wow, wow. I was telling myself, oh, wow, how did I commit to this goal and how did I exceed that goal? Yeah, basically, I did a webinar in PMI. I did a webinar in the Corporate Governance Institute, pmi, Indonesia today, pmi, uae, pmi, ksa a lot of PMI chapters, a lot of other institutions also.

Speaker 2 29:20

I deliver the same exact message, but tailoring it differently to the respected audience. So I was amazed, I was shocked. We have a lot of potential, but we are not exploring that potential. This is the message I'm trying to convey here. We have a lot of things that we can deliver throughout our years. To convey here. We have a lot of things that we can deliver throughout our years and we are not utilizing our years fully. Just because we are, you know, we are spoiled in front of Netflix or Instagram or social media in general. We are not using our time properly. We are using our time showing off instead of delivering value or actual value. Yeah, so that's the message I want to convey to everyone that we have a lot of lives. We need to use those lives. We need to use those hours efficiently and effectively and wisely I think it's um, a really good um.

Speaker 1 30:13

I've had a few people who have said to me work-life balance is, is not, is not, is made up, and they don't believe it. And then they've given. But I like your different definition. I um. When I think of how busy I am, I like to remember that everybody, even Elon Musk, has 365 days a year and 24 hours in a day, and the truth is, even though he has thousands of staff, he's still got the same amount of time to deliver what he needs to deliver. So it just reminds me that, you know, I'm a small cog in a bigger wheel and, as you said, if you use your time effectively, you will be able to deliver.

Project Management in Personal Life

Speaker 1 30:51

But, to your point, a lot of people don't and I think it's more time spent complaining and having excuses. So we definitely, definitely, definitely, as project leaders, probably find ways to use our project management skills and planning in our personal lives. How do you use project management in your personal life? Have you used it to manage an event or renovate a home, or is anything that you can take from your project management world into your personal life?

Speaker 2 31:26

Of course, big time. I'm a project manager in nature. By the way, I wear that hat every single moment because even when I cook, for instance, even when I chop something or do anything in the kitchen, I managed it as a project. So basically, it has to be within a certain deadline or within a certain specific timeline, because I have another thing I have a dependency on this. I have a dependency on that. I have a lot of things to do outside to collect the stuff, because those stuff will be dependency for some other stuff, and it's all about this.

Speaker 2 31:57

Even when I'm planning for my travels, for instance, on my trips with my sister, I manage her as a stakeholder. So I collected all her expectations and aspirations for that particular trip and, uh, we incorporated that into our plan. Also on on the trip journey. Uh, so we calculated all the costs, we calculated all the the different things, we segregated the cost later and we managed it as a project, literally and technically. So in every single movement I do, I manage it as a project manager and I don't know whether it's a curse or something, but it's helping me out.

Speaker 1 32:35

I 100% appreciate that I planned my wedding 12, 13 years ago in a Gantt chart, in a project schedule with a Gantt chart, I should say, and I recall having you know your timelines, the budget, all of that. I have to admit it was very successful in terms of being managed, although there was a risk that I couldn't account for and that was the flower girl being removed from one bridal car to another bridal car without my awareness and that meant that my flower girl was missing on the day and only ended up coming in too late after the ceremony. So unfortunately, that part I couldn't help and, you know, couldn't do anything about that. So, no matter how much mitigation activities I put in place. So, yeah, I agree with you the project planning.

Speaker 1 33:25

It's amazing how just broad project management as a concept is. The simplest things like baking a cake can be considered a project. But obviously as we bring projects into our corporate lives and and into our businesses, it makes it. It becomes more complex as we add stakeholders and timelines and budgets. So yeah, it's very much part of our life. We're almost at the end of our time here today. Last question for you Is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners a call to action, a piece of advice or a question to ponder today.

Speaker 2 33:59

Yeah, maybe one keyword to end this with Learn, learn, learn, yeah, learn. Whatever you have as a source of learning, just learn about it. You know, sustainability is something, is a dimension for project managers to learn. I always believe in the T-shaped type of project managers. T-shaped in the sense that they have to establish some depth into the project management field and some breadth about something else, like the digital transformation, like the AI, like the sustainability.

Speaker 2 34:28

All of these stuff are very new trends and we need to embrace them as project managers. We can't just put ourselves in the dark and we say we are project managers, we don't care about anything else. No, we do care. We need to establish that awareness. We need to have that breadth about something which is sustainability. In our case, ai, digital transformation All of these stuff are very essential and very crucial in our job as project managers. Yeah, so basically, learn, learn, learn, because there are a lot of sources for learning and they are all free of cost. Uh, we can access it through youtube, linkedin, um, udemy, edx, corsair. There are a lot of sources, a lot of sources, and they are all free yeah, you're right this the amount of free content online.

Speaker 1 35:17

You could learn almost anything, probably practically anything. You just have to be willing to put some time in and then find a way to put that experience or that training into practice, and I think volunteering you mentioned before is one way of doing that. So I think that's a good message. I definitely resonate with that. I spent a long time doing certification after certification after certification, because it ended up sort of evolving that ideas and those experiences. So, yeah, I definitely think that's a great piece of advice to leave our listeners with today.

Speaker 1 35:51

Well done on all the work that you're doing in the Middle East it's great to see a small country being represented on a bigger stage and well done on all the success of the Green PMO book. I'll make sure I link to the book in our show notes so those that haven't received a copy can access it. Thank you, Iman, for your time today and I wish you the best with that award announcement later this month. Thank you so much for having me have a great day. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Please share this with someone or rate it if you enjoyed it. Don't forget to follow us on social media and to stay up to date with all things Agile ideas, go to our website wwwagilemanagementofficecom. I hope you've been able to learn, feel or be inspired today. Until next time, what's your Agile idea?